Retiring from the tank debate, Monks are tanks.

[Ala]

<DIV>I'm retiring from the Monk tank debate (although I have not been as active lately).  My argument has always been that we are tanks but could use a little tweaking.  I've parsed numbers, compared stats, debated in these forums and learned a lot from other Monks.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have discovered that the most significant barrier to Monks being widely accepted as tanks is 1)  pre-conceived notions from prior games (EQ1), 2) Bruce Lee movies, 3) other Monks insisting they are DPS and not tanks (source credibility/ ignorance), 4) plate class tank egos and 5) literal interpretation of the work "tank" .  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of my close friends plays a Guardian and for the first time we are now both at the same level (40).  During the last 3 weeks we have played a lot together and traded off being main tank.  We were visibly and perceptually equal with the exception of <FONT color=#66cc00>con-green ^^</FONT> where the Monk outperformed the Guardian in terms of damage taken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Here are some comments:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Holding Aggro</FONT></DIV> <DIV>We are both able to hold aggro with the same effectiveness.  In fact, out of 200 Nightbloods in Rivervale (con yellow ^^, orange ^^) I lost Aggro only once to a conjuror who was accidentally attacking a mob I was not targeting, while the Guardian lost aggro 3 times (once to healer and twice to a level 42 Wizzy).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Armor</FONT></DIV> <DIV>We are both wearing the best armor available on the market.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Long-distance pulling</FONT></DIV> <DIV>When pulling mobs from a long distance, we both took about the same amount of damage before we entered group range.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Healer Comments</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Three different healers, when asked who they preferred, said that they used the same amount of effort to keep us healed.  One healer jested that I was less effort.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is not scientific… this is perceptual and groups did not always consist of the same classes.  In some cases there was a Pali buffing our AC.  In others there was a Bard buffing our AGI etc…</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>If you have trouble holding aggro, here are some of my thoughts (most I learned in these forums from other players):</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Assist</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Ensure all group members are assisting you. This may seem silly at this stage in the game but I'm surprised by the number of higher level players that do not always assist the main tank.  If not, they are building hate on a mob that you are not (except with group taunt that has a 30 second timer).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Nukers</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Have Nukers hold off nuking until you establish a high threshold of hate. It's not just the main tanks responsibility to hold aggro, <FONT color=#ffffcc><STRONG>it's the GROUPS responsibility</STRONG></FONT>.  If nukers immediately fire off their high damage area attacks they could surpass your hate level with damage output before your group taunt timer expires. </DIV> <DIV>  </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Forget about high DPS</FONT></DIV> <DIV>When you are main tank, do not try for high DPS. Use your mana to taunt, group taunt, stun and group buff during the fight (all build hate).  Your first priority is to consistently build hate and hold aggro, not maximum damage output.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Encounter locks</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Make sure healers buff before the encounter and you group buff after encounter lock</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Adds</FONT></DIV> <DIV>If there are adds, make sure the group knows not to attack the add back, this will make it harder for the main tank to peel. Of course, it always helps to have a mezzer in the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm very happy with the Monk class and having a great time with the game!  I still have my wish-list for Monk spells and abilities which I'm sure will come in due time. But I'm patient <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SniperKitty]

<font size="5">/cheer Hurrah! Welcome to the Tank Girl Club! </font><span><font size="5">:smileytongue: ::dyes your hair pink::</font> <font size="1">Or Tank Boy I guess... ::giggles::</font> </span><div></div>

[ume]

<P>Excellent Post!  MY baby brawler is about to turn monk and I outperform every tank I've grouped with.  So I know I pretty much have the lower level lockdown on mad tanking ability, but still have the mid to high end to come.  </P> <P>I know there is always controversy, but being a skilled player I have noticed that many times it comes down to the skillset of the player.</P> <P>I"m happy to hear a higer level monk make a post like this and give hope to all the baby monks out there.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>Alarr wrote: <div><font color="#ffff00">Nukers</font></div> <div>Have Nukers hold off nuking until you establish a high threshold of hate. It's not just the main tanks responsibility to hold aggro, <font color="#ffffcc"><strong>it's the GROUPS responsibility</strong></font>.  If nukers immediately fire off their high damage area attacks they could surpass your hate level with damage output before your group taunt timer expires. </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote> The people I normally group with know this fact.. that they are just as responsible for agro as I am.. and as such we usually have no issues at all with me holding agro with any of my tanks..   it isn't a contest between the tank and the group.. it's a cooperative attempt... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That said, I generally will warn new people twice before I let them tank <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span><div></div>

[Ili]

<P>Are you joking?</P> <P>I see. So, because you had a good night in Rivervale, and you didn't get waxed by bad rolls, every monk that thinks they aren't as good as a plate tanker (And isn't.) is silly?</P> <P>I'm level 40, too. At level 38, with above average stuff, I got waxed by a grey grove badger. Any fool with a shield would have beaten that thing when it was green or blue. Why? I got shafted on 'avoidance' rolls, and got hit six times in a row.</P> <P>I won't say the class is broken, but it *does* have issues. I'm so sick of people taking subjective experiences, and making it the gospel. 'Well, I can do it, you can too!' That *isn't* the case. We have *no* regularity among us in a class unless we're in a DPS role. None. We're not guardians.</P> <P>Yes, for the love of god, we can tank 1-50. Can we do it as well as plate boys? Arguable. I don't think so. Others do. Apples and Oranges. But just because you had a good night as a tank, and avoidance worked for you like it *SHOULD*, doesn't mean it's happening to everyone else, ok?</P> <P>/sigh</P> <P>-Ilina</P> <P>(edit) Ok, so I guess I got a little upset when I read the post. But people do need to understand where people are coming from. Well written posts have been made that say over and over that there are issues with the Monk class that are making us less effective than plate tanks. But there are several people here who are pretty much saying, 'Well, I tanked everything from 1-50, and if you can't do it too, you're a bad Monk'. I'm just tired of it. I think monks should be able to tank, and tank well, and be a viable choice for MT at any time. I also think the whole 'Most players here are EQ1 players, and they're all stuck into thinking Monks are DPS is crap. Most people I see and talk to have *not* played EQ1. I'd go as far as to say that it's split in half, with 50% of people being new EQ players. I don't buy that. People have seen bad damage rolls, and *that's* why they don't think we're tanks. People see Light Armor, and *that's* why they don't think we're tanks.</P> <P>That being said... I want to see a Fury or Warden now after the patch. I'd be very interested to see what their avoidance and migation percentages are after this patch.</P> <P>/rant off</P><p>Message Edited by Ilina on <span class=date_text>03-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:03 AM</span>

[NeVeRLi]

I would like to add to this discussion my findings. As a level 44 monk i can solo lvl40^^ and my friend who is a lvl 44 guardian can solo lvl42^^ in Everfrost. When soloing or tanking he gets hit less and takes less damage. When tanking in EF/PF I get hit for 1,300 dmg on avg, while the guardian does not. Mind you we both are tanking lvl48-49^^. So I offer to you these facts, soloing or tanking the guardians are better. Guardians have avoidance rating of 60+% and 600+ more mitigation(absorb 50% dmg) and and have a very very high defense skill. This defense skill seems to keep them from getting hit... I know my deflection does not work and if it did then maybe I would beable to do better at soloing or tanking. I'm on Highkeep and names Kalidor and challenge anyone to prove me wrong on this. The dev's owe us an answer and need to fix deflection! <div></div>

[Ala]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ilina wrote:<BR> <P>Are you joking?</P> <P>I see. So, because you had a good night in Rivervale, and you didn't get waxed by bad rolls, every monk that thinks they aren't as good as a plate tanker (And isn't.) is silly?</P> <P>I'm level 40, too. At level 38, with above average stuff, I got waxed by a grey grove badger. Any fool with a shield would have beaten that thing when it was green or blue. Why? I got shafted on 'avoidance' rolls, and got hit six times in a row.</P> <P>I won't say the class is broken, but it *does* have issues. I'm so sick of people taking subjective experiences, and making it the gospel. 'Well, I can do it, you can too!' That *isn't* the case. We have *no* regularity among us in a class unless we're in a DPS role. None. We're not guardians.</P> <P>Yes, for the love of god, we can tank 1-50. Can we do it as well as plate boys? Arguable. I don't think so. Others do. Apples and Oranges. But just because you had a good night as a tank, and avoidance worked for you like it *SHOULD*, doesn't mean it's happening to everyone else, ok?</P> <P>/sigh</P> <P>-Ilina</P> <P>(edit) Ok, so I guess I got a little upset when I read the post. But people do need to understand where people are coming from. Well written posts have been made that say over and over that there are issues with the Monk class that are making us less effective than plate tanks. But there are several people here who are pretty much saying, 'Well, I tanked everything from 1-50, and if you can't do it too, you're a bad Monk'. I'm just tired of it. I think monks should be able to tank, and tank well, and be a viable choice for MT at any time. I also think the whole 'Most players here are EQ1 players, and they're all stuck into thinking Monks are DPS is crap. Most people I see and talk to have *not* played EQ1. I'd go as far as to say that it's split in half, with 50% of people being new EQ players. I don't buy that. People have seen bad damage rolls, and *that's* why they don't think we're tanks. People see Light Armor, and *that's* why they don't think we're tanks.</P> <P>That being said... I want to see a Fury or Warden now after the patch. I'd be very interested to see what their avoidance and migation percentages are after this patch.</P> <P>/rant off</P> <P>Message Edited by Ilina on <SPAN class=date_text>03-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:03 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <UL> <LI>Trust me, this is not just one good night of tanking.   I could not write such a post without a lot of experience, failure and learning from other Monks that were successful.  </LI> <LI>Soloing a badger has nothing to do with tanking for a group.</LI></UL>

[RadricTyc]

<P>Here here.  I tank every chance I get.  Most times if its a pickup group, my name gets added to another healer's friends list and I get invites from these people as soon as I log in.  Tanking isn't about being uber in terms of combat arts and equipment.  It's about being uber mentally.  Being fast.  Being alert.  Playing to squeeze every last drop out of your time investment for exp.</P> <P>People really appreciate a tank that rolls them through a zone at warp speed.  They don't get bored.  They have to play alert just like you. And at the end of the day they all go WOW what a great group that was.  A tank sets the tone for a group; and if yours is postive, alert, and fast, people will REALLY appreciate you, regardless of what class you are or what armor you wear.</P>

[SageMarrow]

<P>very true, and now with moorguards post about the state of the world, some changes are gonna be made. im positive that it will definately be a BIG shift around on alot of different levels for alot of different classes.</P> <P>all we can do now is wait and see how they will "tackle this big issue". man i would cry if i had to do what they are about to right now... :smileyindifferent:</P>

[Ili]

<DIV> <DIV>Never said that it did. I made a post about the badger thing to prove a point, a point in which I've said in several of my posts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regardless of how good we may or may not be, an avoidance tank is unreliable as compared to a plate tanker. The reason this is true is because one bad set of rolls for hitting as compared to my rolls to dodge = dead Monk. Plate Tankers don't have this problem, as what they *aren't* dodging, they migate better than we do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That was my point. And just for the record, and making sure nobody misunderstands me, I love being a Monk. I've said so several times, and I also said I won't reroll. I believe that we're fighters, and I believe fighters are tanks. I believe that brawlers are adequate tanks however, and that 99.9% of the time, a plate tanker will be prefered. It's not the way I want things to be, but it's the way the game dictates for them to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Ilina</DIV></DIV>

[woo]

<DIV>those that say they cant tank--</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>have you been backup tank for a while and your defense skill is like 105/200 or something??  cuz thatll do it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i have a fealing this may be the case for some.</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<P>no thats not the case because when you put on an avoidance buff on the MT your skills go up.</P> <P>and who said monks cant tank? every? who EVER said that we cant,? we -= i = nerill = others = merely said that we dont as well as a guardian in some cases, and are not the ****preffered***** tank, to heal at a consistent pace as well as social stigma. nothing more nothing less. </P>

[Babayaaga]

<DIV>Through all the changes this class has recieved, I would have to say there was a time when we were much better positioned as tanks (pre-AGI nerf). Since then, SoE has made some attempts to bring us back in-line with where they feel we should be, (as they state... within the "tank" catagory), but it has fallen short.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One area I can very honestly say we have serious problems is tanking mobs which are substantially higher level than ourselves, and caster mobs particularly chew us up. I haven't had much opportunity to MT for a raid situation, but I do know that at 50 this type of situation will come up very frequently and I have to question our positioning for the MT slot in that catagory considering the current concerns. That's not to say a Plate Tank is much better in this regard... they aren't exactly invulnerable either, and we do have some abilities and buffs that help prevent us from getting hit. In terms of keeping agro, as long as you know what you're doing and you're doing it well, you shouldn't have a problem keeping agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The position I best like being in is that of the "off tank". My group regularly consists of myself, a Guardian, a couple healers and random DPS. The Guardian and I may take turns pulling, but generally he is the Main Assist, enabling me to get Staggering Stance and Martial DIcipline off a lot easier, (I hate when people ask why I switch targets mid-fight to rebuff these stupidly short duration buffs, but I have to have them when tanking). . In this capacity my role generally serves to off-tank/taunt any Adds, and toss in Taunts so both the Guardian and I build up more hate than the healers or the OMGzNuking wizard. I tend to switch between self-buffs (DPS or Tanking) depending on how often I get the agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do think that if SoE intends us to be in-line with other Tank classes that we still need work, but we're not exactly in a state of disrepair either. I love my Monk <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV> <DIV>The position I best like being in is that of the "off tank". My group regularly consists of myself, a Guardian, a couple healers and random DPS. The Guardian and I may take turns pulling, but generally he is the Main Assist, enabling me to get Staggering Stance and Martial DIcipline off a lot easier, (I hate when people ask why I switch targets mid-fight to rebuff these stupidly short duration buffs, but I have to have them when tanking). . In this capacity my role generally serves to off-tank/taunt any Adds, and toss in Taunts so both the Guardian and I build up more hate than the healers or the OMGzNuking wizard. I tend to switch between self-buffs (DPS or Tanking) depending on how often I get the agro.</DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Exactly the same reason i love my bruiser, its a bit more comfortable, not as much pressure, still get to make wipe breaking saves and get the praise without the pressure, and use my skills to thier maximum potential in most cases.</DIV></DIV>