Monks arent tanks

[Garm Treli]

<DIV>We are misplaced scouts... reasons as follows</DIV> <DIV>Monks , shoulda been in scout line , ranger shoulda been in fighter</DIV> <DIV>Tanks are about having impenetrable armor- Monks are about having impenetrable offense</DIV> <DIV>The whole concept of Fighters = Tanks is stupid.. but u see tanks hadda be created so we can have rogues and such... or else they'd have to program all kinds of lockable items in the game, Fighters should be err Fighting. i have never heard of a fight of any kind where the object was to outlast the enemy, including wars, unless the foe was superior tacticly and inferior in manpower</DIV> <DIV>A monks dps is due to precision strikes, Martial arts is supposed to be max dmg/min effort. Put a bunch of theives in a room with a shaolin and see who walks out.</DIV> <DIV>The only reason i see for scouts being highest melee in a fantasy setting is ... i guess assasins.. however assasins get caught , almost always</DIV> <DIV>Monks dont sacrifce armor to be faster for defense, monks sacrifce armor to be faster for counter attack. Parry-Thrust, Parry-Thrust, dodge-Thrust, side step-Thrust, thrust thrust thrus.. ach.. what was i talkin about again?</DIV> <DIV>oh yeah.. we arent tanks, we are very tough scouts hehe </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and finally defense is when offense fails</DIV> <DIV>in any sport if u only have a defense and no offense then noone wins at all , 0-0 Ties</DIV> <DIV>And please if i am missing out on something .. like some classic examples of scouts and tanks in fantasy literature please post</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[amogl]

<DIV>/em looks at the horse cadaver on the ground </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/sigh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>leave the poor thing alone</DIV>

[Bur]

This thread is just going to turn into a flamefest.  If you want to be a scout ROLL A SCOUT. <div></div>

[Garm Treli]

<DIV>i am kinda new here, may i not voice my opinion??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>may i not gaze at the heavens and call out " when  lord?, when will i be heard?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry, didnt mean to offend, but i dont care if u are <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i have lvl 21 monk and love him, hes crunchy , even with milk</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Auhal]

<div></div>I think they just changed something in the Matrix... I don't care what I am - I enjoy it. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Auhal on <span class=date_text>03-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:15 AM</span>

[Garm Treli]

<DIV>scouts dont get kung fu</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>why do u think there is no ninja class</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>youd see a huge shift as 1/3 the population changes to ninjas...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>hey , then , the rest of us can kinda slide over to a diff server <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[ume]

<P>First of all, monks are tanks in EQ2.  Those of you, especially the monks in this forum, who keep trying to avoid that concept makes me giggle.  The more arguments that urge more DPS for the sake of defensive capability simply confuse the issue even more.</P> <P>As for the poster's point...Many of the Martial Arts are more geared to avoiding fights and self-defense, not inflicting pain.  Especially arts like Akido, where there are very few strikes and more manipulation of enemies.</P> <DIV>If you are at a school and the Sensei is teaching you to kill people, then he is psychotic and you need to find another school.</DIV>

[xrippe]

<P>The class is what you make it, thats the beauty of the monk.</P> <P> </P> <P>Yenyang Angrydragon</P> <P>39 Ogre Monk</P> <P>Kithicore</P>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>Garm Trelios wrote:<div>scouts dont get kung fu</div> <div> </div> <div>why do u think there is no ninja class</div> <div> </div> <div>youd see a huge shift as 1/3 the population changes to ninjas...</div> <div> </div> <div>hey , then , the rest of us can kinda slide over to a diff server <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>Pirates > ninjas <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span><div></div>

[xrippe]

<P>No way!  Ninja's totally flip out</P> <P>I once saw a Ninja eating at a resterant.  This guy next to him dropped his spoon and he totally flipped out and uppercutted him.  He got so mad that he flipped out and killed the whole town.</P>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>umerr wrote:<p>First of all, monks are tanks in EQ2.  Those of you, especially the monks in this forum, who keep trying to avoid that concept makes me giggle.  The more arguments that urge more DPS for the sake of defensive capability simply confuse the issue even more.</p> <p>As for the poster's point...Many of the Martial Arts are more geared to avoiding fights and self-defense, not inflicting pain.  Especially arts like Akido, where there are very few strikes and more manipulation of enemies.</p> <hr></blockquote> I saw a demonstration of an interesting martial art.. They focus on being able to take a hit.. one of the demos was a guy getting hit in the solar plexus, crotch, and neck (4 people on the neck) all at the same time.    pretty impressive..  The goal of that one was to enhance a regular art in that you could endure far more damage when you weren't able to avoid being hit.. </span><div></div>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>xripperx wrote:<p>No way!  Ninja's totally flip out</p> <p>I once saw a Ninja eating at a resterant.  This guy next to him dropped his spoon and he totally flipped out and uppercutted him.  He got so mad that he flipped out and killed the whole town.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Thats why pirates are better than ninjas.. you rarely see a pirate flipping out over a spoon...</span><div></div>

[xrippe]

Ya I saw that too.  The only problem I had with it was they prepaired to be hit.  They concentrated and knew where they were about to be hit and braced for it.  In a real fight that doesnt work.  Its all about avoidance/deflection and then counter attacking.

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>xripperx wrote:Ya I saw that too.  The only problem I had with it was they prepaired to be hit.  They concentrated and knew where they were about to be hit and braced for it.  In a real fight that doesnt work.  Its all about avoidance/deflection and then counter attacking. <div></div><hr></blockquote>yeah avoidance and deflection is a lot saner in my opinion than letting people kick you in the crotch for demos <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span><div></div>

[xrippe]

Who knows, when Sony has some expantion down the road the and subclasses are split into 2 more sub-sub classes one might be a ninja and the other a samurai.  Or even a Kensai or Bushi. <p>Message Edited by xripperx on <span class=date_text>03-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:29 AM</span>

[xrippe]

" So what are you doing tonight honey?  Oh I think Ill go down to the Dojo and have the guys kick me in the junk again.  I almost have my black belt in junk shock absorbtion" <p>Message Edited by xripperx on <span class=date_text>03-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:32 AM</span>

[Garm Treli]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> umerr wrote:<BR> <P>First of all, monks are tanks in EQ2.  Those of you, especially the monks in this forum, who keep trying to avoid that concept makes me giggle.  The more arguments that urge more DPS for the sake of defensive capability simply confuse the issue even more.</P> <P>As for the poster's point...Many of the Martial Arts are more geared to avoiding fights and self-defense, not inflicting pain.  Especially arts like Akido, where there are very few strikes and more manipulation of enemies.</P> <DIV>If you are at a school and the Sensei is teaching you to kill people, then he is psychotic and you need to find another school.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ok, good point , allow me to rebut some statements u made... </P> <P>I understand what monks are in eq, i am an exceptional tank when i group.. (everyones a tank when they solo) I am still young (lvl21) and may have issues that will come to light as i grow in lvl. However.. U stated the monks in this forum.. well we are monks.. we want to define our own role to an extent.. I dont advocate unbalancing the game because i am a poorly skilled player, Just that most monks see/desire monks to be butt kickers. So I feel (and assume others do) that monks should be on line with medium to high dmg output. </P> <P>Akido is a defensive based Martial Art , as is Judo , however, It has a purpose other then just avoiding dmg, its purpose is to redirect enemies energy back to himself with the intent of incapacitating him. Which is offensive</P> <P>Now u cant really compare modern day martial arts with Ancient martial arts/ or fantasy marital arts.. because i assure you , ancient martial arts were designed to defeat your foe, even to the point of killing.. so they were.. Just like modern day armies teach soldiers to kill..So i agree a Sensei that teaches karate today to kill people is wrong.. but thats due to modern day society. And the advent of gunpowder.</P> <P>So to summerise i just wanted to discuss some inconsistencies with What I feel about the monk class, and the class structure in general..</P> <P>Why not just let fighters dual sheilds <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> lol</P>

[Garm Treli]

<P>Oh yeah i sae that , that was wild... I wonder if they pay to learn that</P> <P>Hey sensei , heres $40 a month , i want you to hit me until it doesnt hurt anymore, or i stop feeling <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[xrippe]

The EQ monk isnt really based on reality, it is based on the old D&D Monk.  These monks were meant to go Toe to Toe with the mob and fight it in its face.  Because monks are good and honor means alot to them their attacks are not based apon blind siding the mob or hitting from behind.  They are in the face of the mob as any fighter type.  This is why we are tanks.

[Garm Treli]

<P>I rebute that with quivering palm or whatever d&d monk had to insta kill an opponent. </P> <P>Wanna read a classic example of what a d&d monk is read the "Counsilers & Kings Trilogy" by Elaine Cunningham</P> <P>Or the Cleric series by RA salvatore, has a monk supporting character . Both set in Forgotten realms</P>

[xrippe]

<P>That was when forgotten realms bastardized the monk.  They also took a Drow and made him a good guy that walked around in the sunlight... </P> <P>Go back a bit the the players handbooks.  Thats the core of the monk</P>

[Garm Treli]

<P>been along time since i seen a d&d rulebook, Advanced d&d i think it was last i held some dice.</P> <P>And tanks arent about fighting toe to toe as EQ has it( as well as most other MMOS). It about standing around and getting hit with just enuff offensive to feel like your doing something so's u dont get bored</P> <P> </P>

[xrippe]

<P>I agree with that hehe.</P> <P>Man, I miss the old paper and pensil days.  I still have my uber dice collection around someplace.</P>

[JojoTheDog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xripperx wrote:<BR>The EQ monk isnt really based on reality, it is based on the old D&D Monk.  These monks were meant to go Toe to Toe with the mob and fight it in its face.  Because monks are good and honor means alot to them their attacks are not based apon blind siding the mob or hitting from behind.  They are in the face of the mob as any fighter type.  This is why we are tanks. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>LoL, really.</P> <P>What in EQ is based on reality?</P> <P>Gotta be the funniest post yet</P>

[Cusashorn]

<DIV>To the topic poster:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wow. Your logic is so impassibly stupid that I couldn't even bring myself to read your entire post..</DIV>

[Haunte]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xripperx wrote:<BR> <P>No way!  Ninja's totally flip out</P> <P>I once saw a Ninja eating at a resterant.  This guy next to him dropped his spoon and he totally flipped out and uppercutted him.  He got so mad that he flipped out and killed the whole town.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Thats why pirates are better than ninjas.. you rarely see a pirate flipping out over a spoon...<BR> </QUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#ffcc33 size=6><STRONG><EM>There is no spoon...</EM></STRONG></FONT></DIV></DIV>

[Stormewol]

<P>To Cusa: Didn't you used to have the cool Megas Sig during Beta?</P> <P>To Others:  What about the dreaded Pirate Ninjas?</P> <P>To OP: ...../snicker</P>

[xrippe]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JojoTheDog wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xripperx wrote:<BR>The EQ monk isnt really based on reality, it is based on the old D&D Monk.  These monks were meant to go Toe to Toe with the mob and fight it in its face.  Because monks are good and honor means alot to them their attacks are not based apon blind siding the mob or hitting from behind.  They are in the face of the mob as any fighter type.  This is why we are tanks. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>LoL, really.</P> <P>What in EQ is based on reality?</P> <P>Gotta be the funniest post yet</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If you read this post you would have seen where Monks were being compaired to real martial artists and different forms of martial arts.  This is where I posted the monks in EQ are based on D&D monks.  Please read and understand before you reply.

[Gaige]

I heard some hot chick was in here asking for my autograph.

[Ili]

<P>I'm hot.</P> <P>But it wasn't me. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>-Ilina</P>

[Azazel-Defia]

<P>There is nothing wrong with the Ops thinking or logic. His premise is even pretty good. He does have a bit of trouble with organization and coherency. And some of his statements are a bit misleading, but only because he is touching on some monk hotbuttons. If you step back a second and try and read what he is really saying it makes more sense. Let me try and break it down and Garm you can tell me if I am close.</P> <P>1. Monks are fighters. Supposedly monks train daily to confront and defeat enemies. </P> <P>2. Tank is a stupid word to begin with. Everyone only thinks about the ablative armor tanks have but never remember the 60mm canon they are staring at. (+TOW..+Sabot...+Incendiary...+air to ground...+ you get the point)</P> <P>3. Dont call my monk a tank. My monk doesnt use octopus stance, he isnt specially trained to leech onto enemies long enough for someone else to come kill them. My monk is a fighter, he will get in your face, make you miss, bury a right cross into your throat, then laugh while you gurgle blood through your nose. If my rogue friend decides it is a good time to bury a pointy stick into your kidney, thats just fine with me. I had a cold drink waiting anyway, and the rogue was probably buying.</P> <P>4. Scouts should not have the monopoly on physical damage. They are very good at being sneaky and taking opportunities that present themselves. But noone that spends 50% of their time singing, drinking, catburglaring, hunting deer, or running marathons should have some significant advantage in combat over someone who eats, sleeps, and dreams kill the enemy.</P> <P>5. Most of the scout damage misconceptions come from EQ1 when they gave Rogues the ability to backstab. Backstab was a great technique and required the rogue to take opportunities as they were presented, but if you happened to have an extra warr around it wasnt necessarily a bad thing. Warriors were the kings of physical combat, and even if they took a back position on a raid mob you didnt regret having them. They still dished it out, the rogues outdid them, but it wasnt such a huge difference that you felt silly having the extra warrior around. Monks in eq1 were even closer to the Rogue in physical damage ability, When people started moving to Eq2 something went haywire and people decided that the game should be turned into checkers using only 4 pieces.  Damage (avoidance/mitigation), Damage (physical), Damage (recovery/Heal), Damage (magical). It is a singularly limited and boring way to view the game.</P> <P>6. Monks are fighters. (reiterate) We are a combination of all 4 general damage types in the game (see above paragraph). Our purpose is to confront and defeat enemies.</P> <P> </P> <P>And yeah Garm, you can have whatever opinion you want. Good to see you have one that isnt trying to fit the mold. Just maybe next time word it a little clearer...you know "Ugg take beating gewd, Ugg no like reading confusing sentence fragments".</P>

[SageMarrow]

if i say anything about this i will attract the evil aliens and they will come attack the forum.... so i will be quiet. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but i will say this...(edit) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>for some reason the players have come to believe that all the classes are sony's rendition of the class and that we are really just pure tanks in disguise that are waiting to come out of the closet.  for some reason they believe that we were given sub par taunts, light armor, and 7-8 COMBAT ARTS, for fluff... not to do damage but to get punched in the face repeatedly and hope to avoid em all.  heh, i guess that makes sense. but we have already established that combat arts arent a good substitute for aggro building next to a taunt directly, so dont comment on that. they stuck us in the middle, sort of like they did bards, enchanters, and shamen. every archetype has one black sheep thats a simi - hyrbid type. </DIV><p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>03-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:58 PM</span>

[Teler]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Garm Trelios wrote:<BR> <DIV>We are misplaced scouts... reasons as follows</DIV> <DIV>Monks , shoulda been in scout line , ranger shoulda been in fighter</DIV> <DIV>Tanks are about having impenetrable armor- Monks are about having impenetrable offense</DIV> <DIV>The whole concept of Fighters = Tanks is stupid.. but u see tanks hadda be created so we can have rogues and such... or else they'd have to program all kinds of lockable items in the game, Fighters should be err Fighting. i have never heard of a fight of any kind where the object was to outlast the enemy, including wars, unless the foe was superior tacticly and inferior in manpower</DIV> <DIV>A monks dps is due to precision strikes, Martial arts is supposed to be max dmg/min effort. </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>No one ever in any situation managed to outdo the min/max principle, either it is - in this context - max dmg for given efford or min efford for given damage.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Put a bunch of theives in a room with a shaolin and see who walks out.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>You should take both into context, the Shaolin doesn't fight against western world house thieves but against eastern culture ones, like Assassins (Ninjas) or fallen tanks (Ronin). Now imagine the movie you saw would not have the Shaolin as the protagonist but the Ninja - the Shaolin would be dead...</FONT></DIV> <DIV>The only reason i see for scouts being highest melee in a fantasy setting is ... i guess assasins.. however assasins get caught , almost always</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Only in a movie where they aren't the heroes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Monks dont sacrifce armor to be faster for defense, monks sacrifce armor to be faster for counter attack.</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Wrong, Kung-Fu is mainly about defense. Of course you can strike back, but the main intend is defense, thus preventing damage on your body and the bodies of your friends.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>Parry-Thrust, Parry-Thrust, dodge-Thrust, side step-Thrust, thrust thrust thrus.. ach.. what was i talkin about again?</DIV> <DIV>oh yeah.. we arent tanks, we are very tough scouts hehe </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Tough Scouts, eh? Dishing more damage AND being better at defense, eh? If you want a god mode, go play Doom, or Quake 3...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and finally defense is when offense fails</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>As a Monk who considers himself deriving from the ideals of Kane and other Shaolin monks, you should talk exactly the other way around: Striking back is for when defense fails.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>in any sport if u only have a defense and no offense then noone wins at all , 0-0 Ties</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Defend yourself as long as needed until the opponent is exhausted, then make the winning point with a snap of the fingers. Viable tactics in sports today.</FONT></DIV> <DIV>And please if i am missing out on something .. like some classic examples of scouts and tanks in fantasy literature please post</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Valeria (Rog) and Subutai (Ran) in Conan the Barbarian, Legolas (Ran) and the Hobbits (Rog) in LotR with Aragorn ranther being a Paladin even though he is <EM>called</EM> a Ranger, as well as all Monks/Shaolin as long as they fight on the side of good / heroes who claim that their fighting is rather for defense than for offense. Enough examples for you or should I start to even research and post more than what comes to my mind at first glance?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[IrulanDunedanc]

Actually, as much time as Aragorn spends foraging and tracking, he has to be at least part ranger. :smileytongue:

[Uanelven]

<span><blockquote><hr><p> When people started moving to Eq2 something went haywire and people decided that the game should be turned into checkers using only 4 pieces.  Damage (avoidance/mitigation), Damage (physical), Damage (recovery/Heal), Damage (magical). It is a singularly limited and boring way to view the game.</p> <hr></blockquote> /applaud I'm in support of all 6 points in this post.  Some people seem hell bent on making the game nothing but square. </span><div></div>

[Teler]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> IrulanDunedancer wrote:<BR> Actually, as much time as Aragorn spends foraging and tracking, he has to be at least part ranger. :smileytongue:<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>He is not tracking he is using the waypoint feature, maybe with some exploit to find where the mobs are (a.k.a. HIE, Heroes Intuition Exploit) or animationless emotes like /drool Sauron, and he can forage as everyone else can. If he would be Tracking, he could not find anything further away than his hand when scratchting his nose.</DIV>

[xtacti]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xripperx wrote:<BR> <P>No way!  Ninja's totally flip out</P> <P>I once saw a Ninja eating at a resterant.  This guy next to him dropped his spoon and he totally flipped out and uppercutted him.  He got so mad that he flipped out and killed the whole town.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>"cough <A href="http://www.realultimatepower.net/index4.htm" target=_blank><FONT color=#ffff00>Link</FONT></A> cough"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tactix</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://soldat.eq2guilds.org/" target=_blank>Soldat</A></DIV>

[xrippe]

You got it! Thats awesome, Ive been trying to refind that link forever.  THANKYOU

[IrulanDunedanc]

<DIV>There isn't a whole lot of difference betweent tracking and waypointing in EQ2, except for range and what you can lock on to.  Was thinking more along the lines of EQ1 foraging, which was limited to 3 classes (ranger, druid, bard) and a couple of races (wood elf, iksar). :smileywink:</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<P>that is the single most awesome thing i have seen in my lifetime!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</P> <P>that was the funniest crap ever. thanks i needed that</P>