im really sorry everyone.

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>i sincerely apologize everyone for arguing with gage across almost 6 different boards. its really crazy and childish. i know and i have too much time on my hands but spring break is almost over, thank god! and another apology to anyones thread that may get locked or derailed as a result.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>sincerely,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The sage</DIV>

[Amanojak]

<DIV>Poor Sage,</DIV> <DIV>Most of us has given up talking to Gage. He dont listen to our concerns, he dismisses them and blah blah blah....I won't carry on.</DIV> <DIV>Remember...our fight is with SOE for any nerf's..not Gage. As long as we are also heard above Gage's incredible large mouth..we doing fine.</DIV>

[SniperKitty]

"Most of us has given up talking to Gage. He dont listen to our concerns, he dismisses them and blah blah blah." - Amanajokae Your concerns are meaningless.  Like the crying of orc babies as you slaughter their parents in their home! Meaningless.  The monk class is just about perfect from 1 to 50 in normal content.  We need a little tweak to deflection to put us equal with a tower shield carrying meathead.  The biggest problem with the brawler class/sub-classes is the perception of the idiots out there that think brawler = dps.  Bruisers do more damage than us.  Berserkers do more damage than us.  Hell, even Shadowknights do more damage than us.  Yet, you don't see them getting groups to do dps.  No, they're getting groups to tank.  Monks barely out-dps guardians. Gage and many other monks, myself included, have proven we are tanks, from level one to level fifty.  The problem is people like you want to ruin the archetype system out of your own selfish desire and misguided ideas.  If you want to do lots of melee dps, go play a brigand.  They kick butt at melee dps and are fun to play.  When I started playing EQ2, I didn't create a paladin to be a healer.  I didn't create a dirge to nuke mobs with spells.  I didn't create a monk to stand on the sidelines and be a cheerleader.  I didn't create an illusionist to tank mobs with my tiny dagger and an electrum censer.  Each archetype has their place in the group. <font size="7"><font color="#ffff00">FIGHTERS TANK.</font><font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ffff00">SCOUTS STAB.</font><font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ffff00">PRIESTS HEAL.</font><font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ffff00">MAGES NUKE.</font> <font size="2"> Got it?</font> </font><div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amanojakae wrote:<BR> <DIV>Poor Sage,</DIV> <DIV>Most of us has given up talking to Gage. He dont listen to our concerns, he dismisses them and blah blah blah....I won't carry on.</DIV> <DIV>Remember...our fight is with SOE for any nerf's..not Gage. As long as we are also heard above Gage's incredible large mouth..we doing fine. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Awww, I love you too.<BR>

[Mystiq]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR><BR><FONT size=7><FONT color=#ffff00>FIGHTERS TANK.</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>SCOUTS STAB.</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>PRIESTS HEAL.</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>MAGES NUKE.</FONT><BR><FONT size=2><BR>Got it?</FONT><BR></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>THAT..........is a revalation if I've ever seen one. Can someone forward this to the devs?</P> <P>No...I'm serious.<BR></P>

[ursu]

<P>" I didn't create a monk to stand on the sidelines and be a cheerleader."</P> <P>Sometimes, I think it's fun to be the cheerleader~ *shakes her pom poms.</P>

[SniperKitty]

<div></div>hehe, I did enough cheerleading in middle and high school.  No desire to go back to it, even if I could. edit: Eloora, I like that sig pic.  If only the hair in game looked like that! <span>:smileytongue:</span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by SniperKitty on <span class=date_text>03-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:01 PM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV> <P>THAT..........is a revalation if I've ever seen one. Can someone forward this to the devs?</P> <P>No...I'm serious.<BR>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____</P> <P>ditto.</P></DIV>

[Wiou]

Why would you want to forward it to the devs if thats what they do? If they don't do those things, what do they do? <div></div>

[Owa]

<DIV><FONT size=2>Today's Zen from the Mystery Monk:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ff0000>Your concerns are meaningless...Meaningless...idiots...meathead...Th e problem is people like you...ruin...selfish desire...</FONT> </FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>etc. etc.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>"'Cause That's What Being A Monk Is All About" </FONT><FONT size=1>(TM) :smileyvery-happy:</FONT></DIV>

[Ili]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT size=2>Today's Zen from the Mystery Monk:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ff0000>Your concerns are meaningless...Meaningless...idiots...meathead...Th e problem is people like you...ruin...selfish desire...</FONT> </FONT></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>etc. etc.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>"'Cause That's What Being A Monk Is All About" </FONT><FONT size=1>(TM) :smileyvery-happy:</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I really want to buy this book for my house in game. 'The Gospel According to SniperKitty, and anyone who doesn't agree is useless, because I said so'.</P> <P>Good working title?</P> <P>-Ilina</P>

[NeVeRLi]

I just want to see our deflection working so I can at least tank, and our taunts could use some tweaking too. <div></div>

[RadricTyc]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR><BR><FONT size=7><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3>FIGHTERS TANK.</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3>SCOUTS STAB.</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3>PRIESTS HEAL.</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00><BR></FONT><FONT size=3><FONT color=#ffff00>MAGES NUKE.</FONT><BR></FONT><FONT size=2><BR>Got it?</FONT><BR></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wait... so you are saying Illusionists are good nukers?  And my bard is a good stabber?</P> <P>I am not saying you are wrong sniperkitty, I am just pointing out that among the classes there are some differences.  It's rare that anyone takes my illusionist in their group when they need DPS.  Not that we can't fill the role, sort of, its just we don't do it by nuking that's for sure.  It's just not as simple as you make it out to be.  Each archetype has their red-headed step child.  For fighters it seems to be brawler, for mages it's enchanter, for priests, it's shaman, and for scouts it's bard. </P> <P>That isn't to say that these classes are a waste of time, they just don't currently fit the archetype model very well.<BR></P>

[Moussacoy]

<DIV><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>SniperKitty wrote:<BR><BR><FONT size=7><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3>FIGHTERS TANK.</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff3366 size=3>...A lot, but not always</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=7><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3>SCOUTS STAB.</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff3366 size=3>...A lot, but not always</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=7><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3>PRIESTS HEAL.</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00><BR></FONT><FONT color=#ff3366 size=3>...A lot, but not always</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#ffff00>MAGES NUKE.</FONT><BR><FONT color=#ff3366>...A lot, but not always</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=7><FONT size=2>Got it?</FONT></FONT><FONT size=7></FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>

[xrippe]

<P>================================================== =========</P> <P>Sniperkitty wrote:</P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Gage and many other monks, myself included, have proven we are tanks, from level one to level fifty.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>================================================== =========</FONT></P> <DIV>Your Monk is what level again?</DIV>

[Owa]

<P>Apology accepted.</P> <P>I wrote a rather fabulous post yesterday regarding the role of the Monk class but it got lost when I tried to post it. Oh well, no doubt it will come back to me as I continue to follow the discussion...</P> <DIV>In the meantime, some commonly used words in this forum:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>[Removed for Content] wrong ego attitude frak dps utlity tank guardian nerf</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone wanting to post but has been lacking in confidence need merely rearrange these words, add some random spelling errors and and fit right in. Don't delay! Join us in our illustrious debate!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>'After all that's what being a Monk is all about' (TM)</DIV>

[JojoTheDog]

<DIV>Nice Job Sage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Word battles can be hard to walk away from on the forum.</DIV> <DIV>A problem one faces when your... well.... not face to face.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good to see you can rise above it all.</DIV>

[SniperKitty]

<font color="#ffff00">"Wait... so you are saying Illusionists are good nukers?  And my bard is a good stabber?</font><font color="#ffff00"> ... It's just not as simple as you make it out to be.  Each archetype has their red-headed step child.  For fighters it seems to be brawler, for mages it's enchanter, for priests, it's shaman, and for scouts it's bard. </font><font color="#ffff00"> </font><font color="#ffff00">That isn't to say that these classes are a waste of time, they just don't currently fit the archetype model very well..."</font> I play an Illusionist (lvl 20).  While I cannot match the raw dps of a Wizard or Warlock, I can keep up with bards and rogue sometimes.  My Illusionist has been parsed to exceed Swashbuckler DPS when I really work at doing damage.  Using HO's properly with the group can really make your DPS shine.  I can also use the very quick casting lvl 10 enchanter training option to complete solo HO's in between group HO's.  My illusionist is also capable of increasing the dps of other group members.  So you have to account that increase to the illusionist.  It's dps in a different form. I also play a Dirge (lvl 24).  She stabs things a lot, but most of her dps comes from debuffing the creatures.  Dirges are very good at debuffing entire encounters with just two songs.  So I ignore any dps parses about my dirge, because I know what my dirge is doing for the entire group, by lowering the encounters, str, agi, def, and ac by two levels at least.  In the end, the dirge does match an assassin or brigand in consistent dps.  It's just dps in a different form. I also play a Monk (lvl 25).  I have tanked just fine from one to twenty-five, while Gage and others have gone on from twenty-six to fifty. (To the [Removed for Content] that asked what level my monk was, shaddup.  Tanking from one to twenty-five is still part of one to fifty.)  The only problems with the brawler class and it's two sub-classes, is raid content, player perception, and some deflection issues.  The biggest problem is player perception.  Too many morons from EQ1 can't get old perceptions out of their thick skulls. Finally, I also play a Defiler (lvl 22).  Funny that.  I play each of the red-headed step children.  For a little while there, I wasn't liking my shaman too much.  Mages with DoT's were owning me while I solo'd (Not anymore after today's patch! Booya!) and tanks are taking too much damage when the ward gives out (hopefull to be fixed in a future update, soon!!).  Dunno if you know this, but when the ward gives out, any damage not blocked goes through unmitigated.  So if  ward has 10 points left on it, and the tank gets hit for 5000 points of damage.  They take 4990 points, unmitigated by class/armor mitigation.  Serious flaw there that needs to be fixed. But!! Yesterday, I played my defiler in a very non-standard group.  There was a tank, but he was lvl 18 and just sucked.  So he was pointless to have and was just mooching xp.  The real tank for the group was my ability to cast wards.  The lvl 24 warlock would pull groups of mobs onto our group (lvl 22 defiler, lvl 24 warlock, lvl 19 summoner, lvl 18 crusader, and lvl 23 necro).  I'd ward the warlock and we'd go to town on the mobs.  They usually dropped after two wards and a heal.  The only wipeout we had was when we had thirteen mobs in three different encounters smacking me around.  We almost beat it though.  There were only four mobs left when I finally died and the rest of the group went splat shortly after me.  We were taking on lvl 21 to 23 encounters.  All caster groups are viable in EQ2.  Defiler + Mage + Mage + Mage + Mage + Bard (Evac/Buff/Debuff) will be a group I want to try  out soon. In addition to the above classes, I also play a lvl 34 Warden, lvl 24 Paladin, and a lvl 17 Rogue (going Brigand).  Eventually I plan to add Guardian, Warlock, and ??? to the roster.  I dunno what my tenth slot will be used for though.  I might save it just in case SOE adds new archetypes or classes to the game. Anyway, the red-headed stepchild classes are not as out of place as they seem, if you take a closer look at what they provide to the groups.  I'm not quite sure why you included shamans though.  Their class fills the role of healer just fine.  They kinda have some problems as I pointed out... but a couple fixes for those and they'll be peachy keen.  One last thing... high level defilers with their debuffs can drop a mobs MaxHP by one-third.  Against a 15000 hp creature, that's 5000 health points removed, by two spells.  Throw in dirge stamina debuffs and you've taken a beast of a creature and made it a mewling kitten. <div></div>

[Haunte]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT size=1></FONT> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR><FONT color=#ffff00>"Wait... so you are saying Illusionists are good nukers?  And my bard is a good stabber?</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00> ... It's just not as simple as you make it out to be.  Each archetype has their red-headed step child.  For fighters it seems to be brawler, for mages it's enchanter, for priests, it's shaman, and for scouts it's bard. </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00> </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>That isn't to say that these classes are a waste of time, they just don't currently fit the archetype model very well..."</FONT><BR><BR>I play an Illusionist (lvl 20).  ....I also play a Dirge (lvl 24).,,,I also play a Monk (lvl 25). ... IFinally, I also play a Defiler (lvl 22). <FONT color=#66ff33> (editted by TheHaunt for the sake of easy reading)<BR></FONT><FONT size=1></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ff99ff>You have no characters over level 25.</FONT></STRONG>  Although you have a variety of characters, you're hardly an authority on ANY of them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are only just beginning to see what your characters will be.  The first half of the 20's is an adjustment period from your initial sublclass (ie- brawler) to the final subclass (ie-monk).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have no real idea yet, what issues monks, or any other class, has for the end game, except what you may read here, or see in the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you hit 35 or so (I am a 38 monk), then we'll talk about gameplay issues and class functions.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can be the main tank in a group with 2 good healers.  I can tank and hold aggro on yellow and orange heroic fights.  I need good healing support for those times when I'm hit for half my hitpoints...  I can duck and weave well, but when I'm hit, the leather armor just lets damage happen...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't like being the main tank, mostly because finding a group with 2 healers isn't easy... and also because I take the main tank responsibility seriously and it's more stressful to me than fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like being a support fighter.  To me, THAT is a monk's function, and we can do it very well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[NeVeRLi]

The game changes 40+ and the 30+ can make or break most people. Some people get so fed up they stop playing the character they made and play another cause the classes are not balanced and not all classes are equal. <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JojoTheDog wrote:<BR> <DIV>Nice Job Sage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Word battles can be hard to walk away from on the forum.</DIV> <DIV>A problem one faces when your... well.... not face to face.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good to see you can rise above it all.</DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>He didn't.  He just wanted to be a post starter, instead of just posting replies.  :smileyindifferent:<BR>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Haunted1 wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>I can be the main tank in a group with 2 good healers.  I can tank and hold aggro on yellow and orange heroic fights.  I need good healing support for those times when I'm hit for half my hitpoints...  I can duck and weave well, but when I'm hit, the leather armor just lets damage happen...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't like being the main tank, mostly because finding a group with 2 healers isn't easy... and also because I take the main tank responsibility seriously and it's more stressful to me than fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like being a support fighter.  To me, THAT is a monk's function, and we can do it very well. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You don't need two healers, you need one that knows what they are doing.</P> <P>That's fine, you can offtank, but understand that by regulating yourself to that role you'll be less useful to the group in a lot of situations than other classes.<BR></P>

[SageMarrow]

great post haunted 1... 5 stars

[SageMarrow]

<P>how will he be less useful when he is the wizard rouge healer saver 80% of the time?</P> <P>how will he be less useful when there are a billion heavy armor types running around that always seem to be MT when you get there?</P> <P>how will he be less useful when we still have to convince a bunch of healers and plate tanks and heck even scouts for that matter that we **supposedly** tank as well as a plate tank?</P> <P>i dont see it brother...</P>

[SniperKitty]

Hey Haunt... I do have a character over 25.  I have a level <font color="#ffff00" size="5">34</font> warden, as I posted above that you neglected to read slacker.  Thirty-four is more than twenty-five, at least by the math system I was taught.  The game does not change when you go over thirty.  I've played my warden the same way I've always played her from level twelve when I got my first heal over time spell, Regrowth.  I play my paladin and monk the same way.  Pull mobs, taunt mobs, beat mobs down.  The paladin has a few options to heal and ward herself.  Rarely need them with a good healer.  Monk has group buff options and a lot more attacks, but in essence, the job they both do has been the same since they both got their first taunt at level three.  Pull mobs, taunt mobs, beat mobs down. If you have to have two healers in your group... you suck or your healer sucks.  I solo heal for groups all the time, regardless of what kind of tank I have in my group.  Monk or guardian, nothing changes really.  Tank pulls, I cast regrowth, start HO, dot, dot, heal.  That's my routine on trash mobs.  When a named is coming, I buff the tank with a line of buffs.  Tank pulls, I cast regrowth, debuff, debuff, heal, start HO, dot, dot, regrowth, heal.  Equal level tank fighting appropriately challenging content is the same.  Always.  Well... almost always.  Tonight in Tombs of Night we almost got our [Removed for Content] handed to us on a silver platter by some prophet deep in the bowels of the caves.  Nasty mob had an AE attack that did a thousand points of damage.  Combine that with the lag in ToN tonight, not really sure how we squeaked through that fight. heh "You have no real idea yet, what issues monks, or any other class, has for the end game, except what you may read here, or see in the game." - haunt Really... so I guess those <font color="#ffff00" size="5">EPIC ENCOUNTERS</font> in Stormhold, Commonlands, Antonica, Thundering Steppes, Zek, and other zones don't matter?  I mean really.  They are Groupx2 and Groupx3 encounters for characters ranging from 23rd to 35th level.  C'mon... be serious here.  Those don't matter when it comes to raid balance issues as a monk?  The end game ain't the only game ya [Removed for Content].  There's raid content at all levels.  Just because you're higher than thirtieth or fortieth level does not make your opinion any more valid than mine.  So step down off your high horse and shut up.  Cause my opinion about raid content is just as valid as yours. "I like being a support fighter.  To me, THAT is a monk's function, and we can do it very well." - haunt You're wrong.  Monks are fighters which means that SOE wants monks to tank.  Period.  Thems the facts and there's no arguing with it.  Moorgard has been quoted so many times in these silly [Removed for Content] threads it's ridiculous.  You people are freaking mrons.  You can't even comphrend the basics of the Archetype system. Fighters tank, priests heal, scouts stab, mages nuke.  It's that simple and you slacktards can't understand it.  How do you even manage to log on each day is beyond me. <div></div>

[Vigh]

<P>i see that the lvl 34, lvl 50 noobs still stay trolling here :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Maybe you guys should start your own church or something and preach there. </P> <P>Fighters are tanks doesnt and probably never will imply that they are also all main-tanks on every mob out there. Sure we can tank better then any non-fighter but no subclass is the same as an other subclass in its archetype - if that where so the game lost avout 80% of its diversity and fun (and thus a lot of players)</P> <P> </P> <P>Also balancing all classes within a subclass just so that the lvl 50 players have no problem joining raids won't happen either. When you want to raid and get into raidgroups either start them yourself or join a raiding guild /group of players - don't come here yelling that "My class is a hybrid, not good at either dps/tanking so raid-leaders don't choose me" bs.</P> <P> </P>

[SageMarrow]

<P>that doesnt make sense to them for some reason though...</P> <P>and as for the raiding thing... yeah its fine and dandy to be in a guild that raids casually, but some of us dont want to have 4 level 50 chars by expansion 1 (me) and others play alot and would like to always have a desireable roll between level 50 and expansion 1.   The problem with that is that raiding guilds usually are very picky and strive for perfection in those situations. which i understand is no ones problem, but it does pose a problem for those that would like to raid on thier main instead of playing a billion different chars. so that does indeed put some players in a pickle.  not a big enough one to be of note...</P> <P>but i guess the bottom lines is that not enough tanking and not enough dps and not enough utility is not good on any level. every class in every archetype gets more utility at the least than monks/bruisers.  scouts, wont go there, mages, wont go their either, even warriors get 4 different buffs to help the fight...and make the best duo every when offtank tanking combos...</P> <P>so yeah, its simple but if you dig a bit deeper, there is a problem relatively with being a not so tankish tank, and a not so dpsing dpser, and none of the utility in between.  thats the core problem. while some dont see all the issues that makes this true... it is in fact there. while utility would solve the problem, thats for the devs to decide.</P>

[IrulanDunedanc]

<DIV>Maybe I'm missing something here, but I've done dps that compared reasonably well with a zerker 6 levels higher than me (although admittedly he was tanking and using a tower shield; wasn't doing too badly when said zerker wasn't tanking and had gone into dps mode either, though), and been told on several occasions that I tank better than some guardians my level (may not be saying too much though, the people that said it may have just grouped with some really lousy guardians :smileytongue: ).  Where is this supposed lack of tanking ability and dps?  I may not out dps the scouts and non-enchanter mages, and I may not be able to out tank a guardian with comparable levels/gear/playing ability, but I can definitely out dps pretty much any comparable (non-brawler) fighter, and out tank pretty much any comparable scout, which works for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And about the monk's innate deflection compared to the other professions' shields... they may get to use shields that give better deflection than the brawler/monk/bruiser innate bonus (brawler is supposed to be comparable to a buckler, monk/bruiser to a round shield, where crusaders get to use kite shields and warrior subclasses get to use towers), but the trade off is they *have* to use their shields to get that increased deflection.   Plate tanks, especially berserkers, sacrifice quite a bit of dps to take advantage of that edge in tanking ability.  Monks only sacrifice dps if they have to spend all their time taunting or they switch to the Brawler's Stance line of self buffs.  My monk is 32, so I'm (theoretically) past that adjustment period from brawler to full-fledged monk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My only real complaint thus far is that I'm gonna have to sacrifice my cool looking PJ's to keep up with the power curve. :smileysad:</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<P>well thats understandable, but you are truely satisfied tanking better than a scout and out dpsing a pure tank?</P> <P>well i guess it would befit you to know that a dirge can out tank you when his agility can be SELF BUFFED up to 320+ agility and cannot be hit for the most part.</P> <P>Or that in a long fight with multiple mobs, a berserker WILL out dps you everytime strictly because of the AE skills.</P> <P>Or that a defensive based tank (guardian) avoids more than we do purely out of his defensive skill with a shield. </P> <P>(so with that being said in a perfect world, a heavy armor tank wouldnt be able to avoid or have misses or blocks at all, they would take a stream of mitigated damage where as we would have misses and blocks, but when hit would get hit for full damage, but shields exist so hey)</P> <P>so its a bit more complex than what meets the eyes on a daily run.  it has to be explored from several different avenues in order to achieve a well rounded conclusion that its not all peaches and cream and "balanced " if that is what we are SO CALLED striving for.</P> <P>some want us to be guardians without being guardians, (avoidance/deflection to function as mitigation/avoidance combo does for them. While others would rather a more balanced approach to the equation. personally, i say balanced between tanking and doing damage as we do currently but to an extent that we can compete for damage dealing roles in groups and raids in the presence of a better tank.</P> <p>Message Edited by SageMarrow on <span class=date_text>03-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:19 AM</span>

[IrulanDunedanc]

*shrug* Isn't that where we're supposed to fit in, kind of the jumping-off point in dps vs. tanking ability between the other fighters and the scouts?  I haven't seen this supposedly untouchable self-buffed dirge thing, but then I haven't seen anything resembling end game encounters in EQ2 (heck, haven't even managed to finish the script leading up to fighting Lord Everling yet).  If dirges can out tank a class that's theoretically designed and intended to be a tank (albeit not the end-all be-all of tanks), then that's something that probably needs to be adressed by the dev's. <DIV> </DIV>