Monk Race vs Complaint factor

[Squidwalk]

<DIV>Alright, I'm sorry guys, but I just had to say this. I see so many complaints and rants and raves from monks, possibly more then any other fight class. And frankly after playing a monk, and seeing/working with other fighter types, we got it pretty darn good IMHO. What kills me, is all these wood elf, half elf, human, kerra monks (all high natural agi) complaining about this or other regarding deffence. I'm playing a dwarven monk, that started with a low agi score, at lvl 22 only up to 50 agi. I have no complaints about my tanking/fighting abilities, either solo or in group, fighting stuff appropriate to my groups levels. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just find it curious, to notice many of the complaints are coming from races that went with a race that had natural high agi. Cause my wager is a mojority of you that did that, did so to powergame the class with the agi score. I chose dwarf for RP reasons. I really like dwarves, and thought it would be cool/funny to see a dwarf monk. </DIV>

[Mamasee]

<blockquote><hr>Squidwalker wrote:<DIV>Alright, I'm sorry guys, but I just had to say this. I see so many complaints and rants and raves from monks, possibly more then any other fight class. And frankly after playing a monk, and seeing/working with other fighter types, we got it pretty darn good IMHO. What kills me, is all these wood elf, half elf, human, kerra monks (all high natural agi) complaining about this or other regarding deffence. I'm playing a dwarven monk, that started with a low agi score, at lvl 22 only up to 50 agi. I have no complaints about my tanking/fighting abilities, either solo or in group, fighting stuff appropriate to my groups levels. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I just find it curious, to notice many of the complaints are coming from races that went with a race that had natural high agi. Cause my wager is a mojority of you that did that, did so to powergame the class with the agi score. I chose dwarf for RP reasons. I really like dwarves, and thought it would be cool/funny to see a dwarf monk. </DIV><hr></blockquote>I picked a gnome, and while I take more damage after the patch, I am on par with the plate classes, the starting stats have little meaning at the upperlevels.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mamaseeta wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Squidwalker wrote:<BR> <DIV>Alright, I'm sorry guys, but I just had to say this. I see so many complaints and rants and raves from monks, possibly more then any other fight class. And frankly after playing a monk, and seeing/working with other fighter types, we got it pretty darn good IMHO. What kills me, is all these wood elf, half elf, human, kerra monks (all high natural agi) complaining about this or other regarding deffence. I'm playing a dwarven monk, that started with a low agi score, at lvl 22 only up to 50 agi. I have no complaints about my tanking/fighting abilities, either solo or in group, fighting stuff appropriate to my groups levels. </DIV> <DIV>I just find it curious, to notice many of the complaints are coming from races that went with a race that had natural high agi. Cause my wager is a mojority of you that did that, did so to powergame the class with the agi score. I chose dwarf for RP reasons. I really like dwarves, and thought it would be cool/funny to see a dwarf monk. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>I picked a gnome, and while I take more damage after the patch, <FONT color=#ffff00>I am on par with the plate classes</FONT>, the starting stats have little meaning at the upperlevels.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That.  Isn't.  Possible.</P> <P>You don't have mitigation.</P> <P>To the OP: Its probably because you are still in the low to mid 20s.  My 20 troubadour can tank fine, I was tanking blue++ yesterday in a trio group.  Doubt that will happen 40+.<BR></P>

[Coter]

<blockquote><hr>Squidwalker wrote:<DIV>Alright, I'm sorry guys, but I just had to say this. I see so many complaints and rants and raves from monks, possibly more then any other fight class. And frankly after playing a monk, and seeing/working with other fighter types, we got it pretty darn good IMHO. What kills me, is all these wood elf, half elf, human, kerra monks (all high natural agi) complaining about this or other regarding deffence. I'm playing a dwarven monk, that started with a low agi score, at lvl 22 only up to 50 agi. I have no complaints about my tanking/fighting abilities, either solo or in group, fighting stuff appropriate to my groups levels. </div><DIV> </div><DIV>I just find it curious, to notice many of the complaints are coming from races that went with a race that had natural high agi. Cause my wager is a mojority of you that did that, did so to powergame the class with the agi score. I chose dwarf for RP reasons. I really like dwarves, and thought it would be cool/funny to see a dwarf monk. </div><hr></blockquote>At 22 you probably still have the bugged deflection ability, it really makes a difference in what you can tank or not. Get up to 24 and see if you see a difference.I'm a Dark Elf Monk for Role-playing reasons as well, mostly because I always wanted to be a DE monk in EQ1, but couldn't, I didn't take the DE becaue of their high agility, though I did take agility increases when I got my training choices, because I was told that Agility helped my defensive skills.

[Leivant]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Squidwalker wrote:<BR> <DIV>Alright, I'm sorry guys, but I just had to say this. I see so many complaints and rants and raves from monks, possibly more then any other fight class. And frankly after playing a monk, and seeing/working with other fighter types, we got it pretty darn good IMHO. What kills me, is all these wood elf, half elf, human, kerra monks (all high natural agi) complaining about this or other regarding deffence. I'm playing a dwarven monk, that started with a low agi score, at lvl 22 only up to 50 agi. I have no complaints about my tanking/fighting abilities, either solo or in group, fighting stuff appropriate to my groups levels. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just find it curious, to notice many of the complaints are coming from races that went with a race that had natural high agi. Cause my wager is a mojority of you that did that, did so to powergame the class with the agi score. I chose dwarf for RP reasons. I really like dwarves, and thought it would be cool/funny to see a dwarf monk. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> That's right.  Check out your deflection skill and notice the bug that is beefing up your defense.  In the 20's, Monks are overpowered (to where they should be).  You will outgrow this but at lvl 27 I beleive and come down to earth.

[xrippe]

<DIV>Like I said in other posts, Im about to ding 30 and can still solo oranges.  I dont know why but I can.</DIV><p>Message Edited by xripperx on <span class=date_text>02-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:36 PM</span>

[RadricTyc]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xripperx wrote:<BR> <DIV>Like I said in other posts, Im about to ding 30 and can still solo oranges.  I dont know why but I can.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by xripperx on <SPAN class=date_text>02-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:36 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>At your level, many oranges in EL and Zek are over-conned.  If that is what you are referring to.  They don't hit often enough, fast enough, or hard enough to be a real orange mob.  They are simply higher level mobs with lower level stats, attacks, and defenses.</DIV>

[Jenj]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Squidwalker wrote:<BR> <DIV>Alright, I'm sorry guys, but I just had to say this. I see so many complaints and rants and raves from monks, possibly more then any other fight class. And frankly after playing a monk, and seeing/working with other fighter types, we got it pretty darn good IMHO. What kills me, is all these wood elf, half elf, human, kerra monks (all high natural agi) complaining about this or other regarding deffence. I'm playing a dwarven monk, that started with a low agi score, at lvl 22 only up to 50 agi. I have no complaints about my tanking/fighting abilities, either solo or in group, fighting stuff appropriate to my groups levels. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just find it curious, to notice many of the complaints are coming from races that went with a race that had natural high agi. Cause my wager is a mojority of you that did that, did so to powergame the class with the agi score. I chose dwarf for RP reasons. I really like dwarves, and thought it would be cool/funny to see a dwarf monk. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Ok, so I am really confused by this post... You are saying the monk boards are complaining too much (ie. more whining vs. validity) b/c you have a 22 monk with 50 agi he seems to tank well? You are also saying that if you are a non-agi monk race, that you are a powergamer? So maybe you are saying that these folks are complaining b/c they are powergamers too and you like to RP?</P> <P>Well my 22 level wizard can tank well too. Health is about the same as any other and AC is not much lower... but thats no grounds for rational comparisons to monks... hopefully you understand that. As for yoru logic about complaints -> monk race type -> powergaming, is it really worth commenting on how screwed-up that is?</P> <P>-Jenjer</P>

[bonesbro]

<DIV>Had an amusing thought.  One of my friends, a barbarian, still thinks he tanks fine at 40.  I'm a human and 35 and am having a much worse time.  His unbuffed agi is 20-30 points below mine.  Wouldn't it be amusing if agility was actually <EM>hurting</EM> our tanking abilities now? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Totengraeber]

<DIV>hi</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>humans and barbs both have 20 agility to start.   if your friend is that many points below you and the same level he needs some serious gear upgrades i would think.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>while i am only 23 my agility is 76 as a barb monk with pretty decent gear for my level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i have never really understood the hype about kerra monks.  they only start with 3 more agility than a human or a barb.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>maybe i am misunderstanding something about the difference 2 or 3 points makes.</DIV>

[Edyil]

<DIV>You will start to really notice the damage (taken) increase around lvl 26 depending on what you fight.</DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Jenjer wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Squidwalker wrote:<BR><DIV>Alright, I'm sorry guys, but I just had to say this. I see so many complaints and rants and raves from monks, possibly more then any other fight class. And frankly after playing a monk, and seeing/working with other fighter types, we got it pretty darn good IMHO. What kills me, is all these wood elf, half elf, human, kerra monks (all high natural agi) complaining about this or other regarding deffence. I'm playing a dwarven monk, that started with a low agi score, at lvl 22 only up to 50 agi. I have no complaints about my tanking/fighting abilities, either solo or in group, fighting stuff appropriate to my groups levels. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I just find it curious, to notice many of the complaints are coming from races that went with a race that had natural high agi. Cause my wager is a mojority of you that did that, did so to powergame the class with the agi score. I chose dwarf for RP reasons. I really like dwarves, and thought it would be cool/funny to see a dwarf monk. </DIV><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><P>Ok, so I am really confused by this post... You are saying the monk boards are complaining too much (ie. more whining vs. validity) b/c you have a 22 monk with 50 agi he seems to tank well? You are also saying that if you are a non-agi monk race, that you are a powergamer? So maybe you are saying that these folks are complaining b/c they are powergamers too and you like to RP?</P><P>Well my 22 level wizard can tank well too. Health is about the same as any other and AC is not much lower... but thats no grounds for rational comparisons to monks... hopefully you understand that. As for yoru logic about complaints -> monk race type -> powergaming, is it really worth commenting on how screwed-up that is?</P><P>-Jenjer</P><hr></blockquote>One of the people he is comparing to is my wood elf monk... I have her at the same level as his monk, and quite honestly after the patch if the two of us are in group I would rather he main tank over me, simply because when he -does- get hit, he lasts longer... I firmly believe that since his agility is lower he didnt see as much of a change.. put together with the deflection stat change at 20 (I have over 130 def. at level 22).I haven't been able to get across to him quite what the difference is, mostly because I have other experience tanking than he does.. i.e. I have a "plate" tank... I have a level 28 berserker and quite honestly remember the low 20s as different than the low 20s with my monk... its a LOT harder to manage agro with the monk than it is with serk for one, and I get hit a LOT harder.A recent pass with two healers in group (a shaman and a druid).. both of them level 28 to my level 22 while I tanked stuff white^^ and yellow^^ to me drained BOTH healers power to finish the job... and the druid resorted to just healing and no offensive spells at all just to keep me up.... Conversely those two same healers, or either one of them solo, can keep my serker up why tanking white^^ and yellow^^ mobs AT LEVEL 28... and when we were lower they were a level or two behind the serk all the way up to 28 and they STILL were able to perform the task...To me, thats a dramatic example that something is borked and needs to be fixed.

[Ethelwo]

<DIV>Face it folks, the agility nerf has had a negative effect on all monks. I have a 26 Kerran Monk, I play as DPS only and leave the tanking to the armor classes now. Armor (AC) is much better at mitigating damage then the deflection abilities of Monks. I have no problem with this role. I just wish it had been stated as such before I made the class. If a Brabarian or Dwarven monk lasts longer in a fight, it is probably a stamina issue and not one of agility. In the mean time the zerker I made 9 days ago is now 21 going on 22. I still want a tank so I made one. Monks arn't tanks any more and should be concidered as dps only. It wouldn't hurt if SOE would add a self only buff for monks that beefed up their stamina, agility and strength. The only buff they have now has to be cast on a group member to have effect. This should be replaced with a new self only buff. After all they are adding solo content to the game and many people who play monks like to spend at least some time soloing.</DIV>

[Can]

<DIV>The man is right, you guys do complain too much...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In some situations I am the MT even with a guardian in my group.</DIV> <DIV>People who don't like it just don't know how to use the class, and that is how it always works <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Thumbs up to "Monk Race vs Complaint factor"!</DIV>

[SomeDudeCRO]

There is a mountain of irrefutable evidence which clearly shows the monk is no longer an intelligent choice for MT duties. Quite simply, plate tanks take far less damage and therefor require far less healing, thus using far less power on the healer and in turn improving group efficiency. We can still tank, but not nearly as well as plate classes. Before the patch, I would say we tanked better than them, now significantly worse. It is the goal of the monk community not to be the best tank, as we arguably were before, but simply to be more on par with other fighters in regards to the amount of damage taken while tanking. You can't compare solo mobs to group mobs, and you also can't compare encounters ^^ group mobs to 2 single ^ or 3 no ^. The programming logarithms involved in each are surely different, as are the logarithms which determine damage taken which are obvously in need of tweaking <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[SomeDudeCRO]

<blockquote><hr>Canes wrote:<DIV>The man is right, you guys do complain too much...</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>In some situations I am the MT even with a guardian in my group.</DIV><DIV>People who don't like it just don't know how to use the class, and that is how it always works <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><DIV>Thumbs up to "Monk Race vs Complaint factor"!</DIV><hr></blockquote>Lol, Give me a break <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />This isn't a strategy game, and while monk tanking is certainly more involved tactically speaking than plate tanking, it isn't rocket science.

[Mamasee]

<blockquote><hr>SomeDudeCRO wrote:There is a mountain of irrefutable evidence which clearly shows the monk is no longer an intelligent choice for MT duties. Quite simply, plate tanks take far less damage and therefor require far less healing, thus using far less power on the healer and in turn improving group efficiency.We can still tank, but not nearly as well as plate classes. Before the patch, I would say we tanked better than them, now significantly worse. It is the goal of the monk community not to be the best tank, as we arguably were before, but simply to be more on par with other fighters in regards to the amount of damage taken while tanking.You can't compare solo mobs to group mobs, and you also can't compare encounters ^^ group mobs to 2 single ^ or 3 no ^. The programming logarithms involved in each are surely different, as are the logarithms which determine damage taken which are obvously in need of tweaking <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><hr></blockquote>The evidence is refutable, I and others have been doing so. I have not seen any solid evidence supporting your claim. When I start picking apart people claims it ends up in a flamefest.

[RioR]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Canes wrote:<BR> <DIV>The man is right, you guys do complain too much...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In some situations I am the MT even with a guardian in my group.</DIV> <DIV>People who don't like it just don't know how to use the class, and that is how it always works <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Thumbs up to "Monk Race vs Complaint factor"!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Level?

[SomeDudeCRO]

Bah, whatever. You haven't picked apart anything; just poointed out the obvious, and as had been said ad nosium, you yourself (despite being the resident contrarion) have not provided any contrary evidence.Where are your parses? What, quoting moorguards posts and saying you and someone else fight weak solo mobs equally well is what you call evidence?go home

[Mamasee]

<blockquote><hr>SomeDudeCRO wrote:Bah, whatever. You haven't picked apart anything; just poointed out the obvious, and as had been said ad nosium, you yourself (despite being the resident contrarion) have not provided any contrary evidence.Where are your parses? What, quoting moorguards posts and saying you and someone else fight weak solo mobs equally well is what you call evidence?go home<hr></blockquote>Sure I have when I start asking questions about there experences they start flaming or as in your case say I dont have to prove anything you prove it. Well when you actually want to get to the bottom of this let me know, and we can discuss it.

[Coter]

We have been trying to get to the bottom of it, and most monks are agreed at this point that 1 of 2 things needs to happen, no thanks to a single one of your posts.1.) Increase Deflectionor2.) Increase the innate shield effect

[PrometheusO]

<DIV>Mamaseeta, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have showed nothing to the contrary.  In fact, others have shown more to enhance the validity of their argument than you have.   You sound like a sell-out.  You refute evidence without evidence to refute.  Your arguments are worth less the a bucket of warm spit.  Bring on the evidence to refute our fellow monks and you'll be the man.  If you don't, then you'll just be a boy and in a man's world.  No offence to our fellow women monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Prometheus</DIV><p>Message Edited by PrometheusO on <span class=date_text>02-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:35 AM</span>

[Mamasee]

<blockquote><hr>Coterei wrote:We have been trying to get to the bottom of it, and most monks are agreed at this point that 1 of 2 things needs to happen, no thanks to a single one of your posts.1.) Increase Deflectionor2.) Increase the innate shield effect<hr></blockquote>However most monks are trying to be a plate class, something they are not. If you drive your 18 wheeler like a VW bug your in for trouble. Remember the designers stated that monks would have to be more carefull about there equipment and the way they fight.

[SomeDudeCRO]

<blockquote><hr>Mamaseeta wrote:Sure I have when I start asking questions about there experences they start flaming or as in your case say I dont have to prove anything you prove it. Well when you actually want to get to the bottom of this let me know, and we can discuss it.<hr></blockquote>The reason why you get "flamed" is because your "questions" are provocative, not interpersonally conducive to discussion, and more often than not fail to address the premise of the argument.There is nothing to "get to the bottom" of, run a real time parser in all your fights and make comparisons/obversations over the course of as many fights as possible to illiminate as many external variables as you can and you will see the obvious.Regardless, your blase attitude more likely than not won't even change when some point in the future you see in the patch notes something along the lines of "We have increased the effectiveness of deflection so that Brawlers take less damage in combat."

[SomeDudeCRO]

<blockquote><hr>Mamaseeta wrote:However most monks are trying to be a plate class, something they are not. If you drive your 18 wheeler like a VW bug your in for trouble. Remember the designers stated that monks would have to be more carefull about there equipment and the way they fight.<hr></blockquote>See? There you again making unfounded assumptions. While it may indeed be the case that the average monk doesn't pay attention to his abilities and thinks they should be able to tank as easily as a mitigation tank, that is certainly not the case here on these forums. From what I've read of the regular posters, they all certainly understand their character's capabilities, and again it isn't rocket science so lets not be so naive.

[RadricTyc]

<DIV>I am convinced that mamaseeta fights green to gray con creatures that are overconned.  She fights them one at a time, and she has a team of 5 healers backing her up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure in your warped view of reality mama, nothing has changed.  I wish I could be happy fighting EL salt snappers all day, I really do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I challenge you to do this: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know what level you are, but at level 35, go to Runnyeye, take one healer level 36 or lower, bring other DPS level 35 or lower, fight your way down to the Runnyeye Chef, and tank that encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If that group can do it with all the members level 35 or less, maybe you are right.  I am positive that a guardian can.  If you could do it with 2 healers I would be impressed.  Heck I might be impressed if you even make it to that room without dying.</DIV>

[Mamasee]

<blockquote><hr>SomeDudeCRO wrote:<blockquote><hr>Mamaseeta wrote:Sure I have when I start asking questions about there experences they start flaming or as in your case say I dont have to prove anything you prove it. Well when you actually want to get to the bottom of this let me know, and we can discuss it.<hr></blockquote>The reason why you get "flamed" is because your "questions" are provocative, not interpersonally conducive to discussion, and more often than not fail to address the premise of the argument.There is nothing to "get to the bottom" of, run a real time parser in all your fights and make comparisons/obversations over the course of as many fights as possible to illiminate as many external variables as you can and you will see the obvious.Regardless, your blase attitude more likely than not won't even change when some point in the future you see in the patch notes something along the lines of "We have increased the effectiveness of deflection so that Brawlers take less damage in combat."<hr></blockquote>Unfortunatly people take things different online then face to face, I usually give more leaway on peoples "provocative" comments, maybe you and other should do the same.You make it seem that because its "your" postion thats its correct, however the game designers, have posted that there numbers show them inline. Thats is the official position, the burden of proof is upon you. Show me your logs and we can go over them, and maybe the designers are wrong, altho my experence and testing shows them to be somewhat correct.If however you want to critize my writing style, tell me, I am level 45 and your not that I have not idea what I am talking about, or just say, you have not shown any proof I dont have to eather, I do not have the time for you.

[Mamasee]

<blockquote><hr>RadricTycho wrote:<DIV>I am convinced that mamaseeta fights green to gray con creatures that are overconned. She fights them one at a time, and she has a team of 5 healers backing her up.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Sure in your warped view of reality mama, nothing has changed. I wish I could be happy fighting EL salt snappers all day, I really do.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I challenge you to do this: </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I don't know what level you are, but at level 35, go to Runnyeye, take one healer level 36 or lower, bring other DPS level 35 or lower, fight your way down to the Runnyeye Chef, and tank that encounter.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>If that group can do it with all the members level 35 or less, maybe you are right. I am positive that a guardian can. If you could do it with 2 healers I would be impressed. Heck I might be impressed if you even make it to that room without dying.</DIV><hr></blockquote>I have not tanked the chief, however I have tanked in runneye at level 34 and 35, with a group and one healer.

[Leivant]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mamaseeta wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RadricTycho wrote:<BR> <DIV>I am convinced that mamaseeta fights green to gray con creatures that are overconned. She fights them one at a time, and she has a team of 5 healers backing her up.</DIV> <DIV>Sure in your warped view of reality mama, nothing has changed. I wish I could be happy fighting EL salt snappers all day, I really do.</DIV> <DIV>I challenge you to do this: </DIV> <DIV>I don't know what level you are, but at level 35, go to Runnyeye, take one healer level 36 or lower, bring other DPS level 35 or lower, fight your way down to the Runnyeye Chef, and tank that encounter.</DIV> <DIV>If that group can do it with all the members level 35 or less, maybe you are right. I am positive that a guardian can. If you could do it with 2 healers I would be impressed. Heck I might be impressed if you even make it to that room without dying.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>I have not tanked the chief, however I have tanked in runneye at level 34 and 35, with a group and one healer.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Here's the problem... nobody beleives you on these forums.  You've made statements before like "I did this with this person to prove my point", then FLED the discussion when asked to name the 'person'.</P> <P>Not to state the obvious, but you have no credibility here until you come out of the tree house and start existing in a land called reality.</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mamaseeta wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Coterei wrote:<BR>We have been trying to get to the bottom of it, and most monks are agreed at this point that 1 of 2 things needs to happen, no thanks to a single one of your posts.<BR><BR>1.) Increase Deflection<BR><BR>or<BR><BR>2.) Increase the innate shield effect<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>However most monks are trying to be a plate class, something they are not. If you drive your 18 wheeler like a VW bug your in for trouble. Remember the designers stated that <FONT color=#ffff00>monks would have to be more carefull about there equipment </FONT>and the way they fight.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Oh yeah that's right.  What is your monks name/stats/equipment/armor again?  I know you are lvl 34 or 35 but you always seem to forget to add these other things about your monk into the conversation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sure your stats/equipment would help all of us become better post-patch tanks like you are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also what lvl are your combat arts?</DIV>

[SomeDudeCRO]

<blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV>Oh yeah that's right. What is your monks name/stats/equipment/armor again? I know you are lvl 34 or 35 but you always seem to forget to add these other things about your monk into the conversation.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I'm sure your stats/equipment would help all of us become better post-patch tanks like you are.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Also what lvl are your combat arts?</DIV><hr></blockquote>Yep, that's it. The great Mamaseeta, through her divine skill, is able to overcome the game's underlying code and out tank everyone!Maybe she is that dude from the Matrix?

[Gaige]

<DIV>I'm honestly curious what stuff Mama uses as far as armor/weapons/jewelry, what stats Mama has and the lvl or Mama's combat arts.</DIV>

[Coter]

<blockquote><hr>Mamaseeta wrote:<blockquote><hr>Coterei wrote:We have been trying to get to the bottom of it, and most monks are agreed at this point that 1 of 2 things needs to happen, no thanks to a single one of your posts.1.) Increase Deflectionor2.) Increase the innate shield effect<hr></blockquote>However most monks are trying to be a plate class, something they are not. If you drive your 18 wheeler like a VW bug your in for trouble. Remember the designers stated that monks would have to be more carefull about there equipment and the way they fight.<hr></blockquote>We are trying to be roughly equal in our tanking ability to other tanks, not be plate tanks. We don't want to mitigate damage taken as well as plate tanks, we want to avoid taking damage as well as plate tanks mitigate damage taken. We want to be accepted as tanks, we don't want to be told we are not tanks.I do pay attention to my equipment, my equipment is all yellow - orange for my level. All of my skills are APP IV or BETTER, I use all my defensive buffs, and I watch all fights closely, in all situations except green or low blue con mobs a plate tanks tanking skills considerably outclass mine, on green and low blue cons, the plate tank is marginally better.As I've said, what monks want is to be a viable choice for being MT, I would accept being marginally worse then a plate tank tanking the same mobs, but it's been shown, and experienced that we are SUBSTANTIALLY worse then a plate tank tanking the exact same mobs. Hell, I know I couldn't consider tanking a red con mob, but plate tanks do it all the time, I SHOULD be able to tank an Orange conned group mob without being turned into paste if the healer has a fizzle, right now, I can't, hell, I can't even do that for a white conned group mob, because they can kill me before the healer even has a chance to start casting a heal, and that is wrong.

[Squidwalk]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SomeDudeCRO wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Canes wrote:<BR> <DIV>The man is right, you guys do complain too much...</DIV> <DIV>In some situations I am the MT even with a guardian in my group.</DIV> <DIV>People who don't like it just don't know how to use the class, and that is how it always works <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Thumbs up to "Monk Race vs Complaint factor"!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Lol, Give me a break <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>This isn't a strategy game, and while monk tanking is certainly more involved tactically speaking than plate tanking, it isn't rocket science.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Not a strategy game? I"m sorry you are missing a lot then. When myself and others in our guild get into pick groups and people die all the time, and they don't get anything done, but in our guild groups using our strategies and tactics we hardly ever die, and rocks worlds. No strategy? Dude what ever.</P> <P>Well I'm looking forward to seeing how monk is later in high 20's since that is where you are all saying I'll see a difference. Personally, I'm  thinking "some" of you just don't know how to play a monk. </P>

[JuJut]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Squidwalker wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Well I'm looking forward to seeing how monk is later in high 20's since that is where you are all saying I'll see a difference. Personally, I'm  thinking "some" of you just don't know how to play a monk. </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Feel free to tell them how a monk should be played. I'm sure it will lead to some very entertaining posts.<BR>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Squidwalker wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>SomeDudeCRO wrote:<BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Canes wrote:<BR><DIV>The man is right, you guys do complain too much...</DIV><DIV>In some situations I am the MT even with a guardian in my group.</DIV><DIV>People who don't like it just don't know how to use the class, and that is how it always works <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><DIV>Thumbs up to "Monk Race vs Complaint factor"!</DIV><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Lol, Give me a break <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR>This isn't a strategy game, and while monk tanking is certainly more involved tactically speaking than plate tanking, it isn't rocket science.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><P>Not a strategy game? I"m sorry you are missing a lot then. When myself and others in our guild get into pick groups and people die all the time, and they don't get anything done, but in our guild groups using our strategies and tactics we hardly ever die, and rocks worlds. No strategy? Dude what ever.</P><P>Well I'm looking forward to seeing how monk is later in high 20's since that is where you are all saying I'll see a difference. Personally, I'm thinking "some" of you just don't know how to play a monk. </P><hr></blockquote>There is definately a strategy and tactics componant to combat... and it helps to know what tactics you will be using.. which is why I try to make sure that when I am main tanking we are all on the same page for who does what...and those tactics and strategies have saved our bacon on more than one occaision.But, I do have to say.. that at level 22 you and I are just barely monks... and things WILL change and improve/get worse as we get higher.. just like it has changed for my berserker from level 22 to 28.. tactics shift and change and we have to dodge the dev bullets as they make changes to our stuff..oh, and 75 agi now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[SomeDudeCRO]

<blockquote><hr>Squidwalker wrote:<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><P>Not a strategy game? I"m sorry you are missing a lot then. </P><hr></blockquote>I'm not missing anything, you misinterpreted what I said or perhaps I was unclear. Ofcourse, there are many different strategies and tactics which you can implement in this game which will make the difference between life and death, but relative to STRATEGY GAMES (such as Civilization or Age of Empires etc etc....) it pales in comparison. You must not have ever played any strategy games?

[Squidwalk]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ariven wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jenjer wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Squidwalker wrote:<BR> <DIV>Alright, I'm sorry guys, but I just had to say this. I see so many complaints and rants and raves from monks, possibly more then any other fight class. And frankly after playing a monk, and seeing/working with other fighter types, we got it pretty darn good IMHO. What kills me, is all these wood elf, half elf, human, kerra monks (all high natural agi) complaining about this or other regarding deffence. I'm playing a dwarven monk, that started with a low agi score, at lvl 22 only up to 50 agi. I have no complaints about my tanking/fighting abilities, either solo or in group, fighting stuff appropriate to my groups levels. </DIV> <DIV>I just find it curious, to notice many of the complaints are coming from races that went with a race that had natural high agi. Cause my wager is a mojority of you that did that, did so to powergame the class with the agi score. I chose dwarf for RP reasons. I really like dwarves, and thought it would be cool/funny to see a dwarf monk. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Ok, so I am really confused by this post... You are saying the monk boards are complaining too much (ie. more whining vs. validity) b/c you have a 22 monk with 50 agi he seems to tank well? You are also saying that if you are a non-agi monk race, that you are a powergamer? So maybe you are saying that these folks are complaining b/c they are powergamers too and you like to RP?</P> <P>Well my 22 level wizard can tank well too. Health is about the same as any other and AC is not much lower... but thats no grounds for rational comparisons to monks... hopefully you understand that. As for yoru logic about complaints -> monk race type -> powergaming, is it really worth commenting on how screwed-up that is?</P> <P>-Jenjer</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>One of the people he is comparing to is my wood elf monk... I have her at the same level as his monk, and quite honestly after the patch if the two of us are in group I would rather he main tank over me, simply because when he -does- get hit, he lasts longer... I firmly believe that since his agility is lower he didnt see as much of a change.. put together with the deflection stat change at 20 (I have over 130 def. at level 22).<BR><BR>I haven't been able to get across to him quite what the difference is, mostly because I have other experience tanking than he does.. i.e. I have a "plate" tank... I have a level 28 berserker and quite honestly remember the low 20s as different than the low 20s with my monk... its a LOT harder to manage agro with the monk than it is with serk for one, and I get hit a LOT harder.<BR><BR>A recent pass with two healers in group (a shaman and a druid).. both of them level 28 to my level 22 while I tanked stuff white^^ and yellow^^ to me drained BOTH healers power to finish the job... and the druid resorted to just healing and no offensive spells at all just to keep me up.... <BR><BR>Conversely those two same healers, or either one of them solo, can keep my serker up why tanking white^^ and yellow^^ mobs AT LEVEL 28... and when we were lower they were a level or two behind the serk all the way up to 28 and they STILL were able to perform the task...<BR><BR>To me, thats a dramatic example that something is borked and needs to be fixed.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Well you sort of proved my and moorgards point here. The change was for high agi characters. Personally I think an agi in the 70's at low 20's is pretty darn high. When you consider the highest I think any race can start at is 30. That's 40 points to one stat in only 20 levels. My kerra ranger started with with 25 agi and at 24 has a 69 unbuffed. And I have a few peaces of jewlery I got just to boost it some. So yea, I might not EVER see a big change with a lower agi then some of you. That was the point of the change. </P> <P>As I have stated in previous posts about this. Can you solo soloable mobs? Can you solo a mob rated as solo of at least white? If you are complaining that you can't solo a yellow or orange solo mob, then you are barking up the wrong tree. You should'nt be able to intended design. If you complain that other fighters can, then you need to argue THEY need a change to lower them down as well. Frankly from people like Morgon and his 28 serker proves not all other fighters can solo above white solo rated mobs. </P> <P>And now I discuss group rated mobs. An intended group by EQ devs from before launch, to be able to take on group rated stuff is AT LEAST 4 people, one of each archetype. A full group of 6, one of each arch, and two others, is intended to be able to take on group rated mobs of white con with out much trouble. yellow is when group mobs should be getting challenging for a group. This is how the game is designed from the devs postings. Again, if you can't at least tank that in that kind of situation, then yes complain. But if you can, but see other tanks doing more, then you need to complain that they can do to much. </P> <P>A 100 or 200+ agi is insane, especially since you can only get to level 50 right now. If any of you played DnD RPG, the you know, no matter what the AC of something, if you roll a natural 20 on the dice to hit, you automatically hit it. Doesn't matter if your attack bonus + 20 is not good enough to hit it normally. The point is there is always a percentage chance something will get hit. And that is what the devs were trying to balance back into the game. I think some of you were taking serious advantage of that lacking in the mechanics and got all butt hurt when it was changed. Maybe if you weren't ubering yourself out with mega agi scores to basically avoid ALL hits from anything, you wouldn't have noticed such a change. </P> <P>And yes to me, that makes sence and I'm OK with it. </P> <P>Dwarf monk for the win!!   :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[MoonglumHMV]

<DIV>Just to show how bored I am at work today, there is a Mamaseeta, gnome monk if you search on Steamfront.  Level 35 Gnome Monk.  However, without an upgraded station account, so no stats or equipment are available.  I would assume from my double-secret investigation that this would be the Mamaseeta in question...seems to follow what was stated by them...Gnome, level 35, and they did say Steamfront in the Avoidance/Deflection Questions and Discussion thread on this board...Also (my best investigative skills shown here!!!) on 12/12 Mamaseeta replied to a question on the Lavastorm forum stating they were a 20 provisioner...this Mamaseeta is a 33 provisioner as well..!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you...thank you very much....!! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by MoonglumHMV on <span class=date_text>02-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:34 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MoonglumHMV wrote:<BR> <DIV>Just to show how bored I am at work today, there is a Mamaseeta, gnome monk if you search on Steamfront.  Level 35 Gnome Monk.  However, without an upgraded station account, so no stats or equipment are available.  I would assume from my double-secret investigation that this would be the Mamaseeta in question...seems to follow what was stated by them...Gnome, level 35, and they did say Steamfront in the Avoidance/Deflection Questions and Discussion thread on this board...Also (my best investigative skills shown here!!!) on 12/12 Mamaseeta replied to a question on the Lavastorm forum stating they were a 20 provisioner...this Mamaseeta is a 33 provisioner as well..!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you...thank you very much....!! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <P>Message Edited by MoonglumHMV on <SPAN class=date_text>02-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:34 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So who is on steamfront who can inspect Mama and post the SS?<BR>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Squidwalker wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Well I'm looking forward to seeing how monk is later in high 20's since that is where you are all saying I'll see a difference. Personally, I'm  thinking "some" of you just don't know how to play a monk. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>OMG you got me!  <BR>

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Squidwalker wrote:<BR><P>Well you sort of proved my and moorgards point here. The change was for high agi characters. </blockquote>No, I did not... to quote moorgard: "Why? To put it simply, being in a group where you could attain huge amounts of agility (200-300 points) made you next to invulnerable. The people severely affected by this change are the ones who used this as their main style of play."In no way is a 75 agility close to 200-300 agility, nor is it really a "high agi character" and it should not be affected to the same amount as the STATED reason for the change. Even with my lower agility berserker I have noticed a definate difference in what hits me and how often.<blockquote>Personally I think an agi in the 70's at low 20's is pretty darn high. When you consider the highest I think any race can start at is 30. That's 40 points to one stat in only 20 levels.</blockquote>Welcome to buying equipment with the stat bonuses that you need. When I buy a new piece of equipment I make SURE that it is better in stats than the one it replaces.. and my agility is only going to go up even more as I finish up the AQ quests.. by the time I hit 25 I expect to be close to 100 agility.. simply by following that stratigy.. and the trick is, so could any class that gets agility boosts.. (and many that dont). <blockquote> My kerra ranger started with with 25 agi and at 24 has a 69 unbuffed. And I have a few peaces of jewlery I got just to boost it some. So yea, I might not EVER see a big change with a lower agi then some of you. That was the point of the change. </P></blockquote>nope, the point of the change was 200-300 agility, not 50-75. Such a change should be as they have stated, OR, they should have stated that it was across the board AND made it proportional to the agility level of the character. Like I have stated, even my berserker has noticed a difference and I have him at about 52-54 agility. The only thing saving him is higher mitigation of damage... but when two level 28 healers can barely keep a level 22 monk alive vs level 22 and 23 ^^ mobs there is a definate issue. Most of my gear is white or yellow, I have a couple pieces of really nice blue that I haven't replaced yet (since I am getting the aq stuff). I have a fairly decent AC -number- and only want that -number- to be represented by real experience. If I can match a guardian or berserker or palidan in ac, then I should match them in overall damage in fights... they mitgate more I should dodge enough more to match that. Thats all I ask, to be approximately equal... Give me my place to shine and I will do -my- best to hold up my end of the stick.. but we arent even given that.<blockquote><P>As I have stated in previous posts about this. Can you solo soloable mobs? Can you solo a mob rated as solo of at least white? If you are complaining that you can't solo a yellow or orange solo mob, then you are barking up the wrong tree. You should'nt be able to intended design.</blockquote>Then they need to change the con values on those mobs. A white should be a fair fight and a yellow with some work. As it is, a white solo mob NOW is about equal to me as a high yellow was before... and a blue is equal to a high white...Put this together with the increasing danger of mobs as they get higher in level and the con system goes completely out of whack (barring the occaisionally overconned mob). A white mob should be a fair fight and I am not seeing that. A yellow should be a challenge and its not, it is death. A blue should be "moderately easy" to take with decent effort and its not, it is more like what whites -should- be.<blockquote>If you complain that other fighters can, then you need to argue THEY need a change to lower them down as well. Frankly from people like Morgon and his 28 serker proves not all other fighters can solo above white solo rated mobs. </P></blockquote>I am not saying that other fighters can take stuff that I cannot, I am saying that by taking a vital componant of what we are supposed to be as monk away from us and not replacing it with other things to make the whole more equal then they are doing us a disservice.When I get my monk to the same level as I have my serker morgon I would expect them to on the whole do the same level at taking damage (mitigation vs avoidance) and do their job at dealing -some- damage out while keeping control of the mobs in an encounter. From my experiences taking morgon to level 28, and so far with monk, it doesn't look balanced.<blockquote><P>And now I discuss group rated mobs. An intended group by EQ devs from before launch, to be able to take on group rated stuff is AT LEAST 4 people, one of each archetype. A full group of 6, one of each arch, and two others, is intended to be able to take on group rated mobs of white con with out much trouble. yellow is when group mobs should be getting challenging for a group. This is how the game is designed from the devs postings. Again, if you can't at least tank that in that kind of situation, then yes complain.</blockquote>I am.. I am.. thats what I am doing here. Complaining that I am having issues tanking stuff that is 4-6 levels below the level of most of the group and is white to me.<blockquote> But if you can, but see other tanks doing more, then you need to complain that they can do to much. </P></blockquote>Oh no, I am not going to go out and say "x is doing too much, NERF!" That leads the way as you well know to nerfs of overwhelming nastieness.. they will wield the "adjustment" bat with a heavy hand. I would MUCH rather advocate a balancing of stuff overall, be it raising up stuff, removing nerfs, lowering other stuff.. but I am not going to come out with my leading commentary as a proponant of a nerf.<blockquote><P>A 100 or 200+ agi is insane, especially since you can only get to level 50 right now. If any of you played DnD RPG, the you know, no matter what the AC of something, if you roll a natural 20 on the dice to hit, you automatically hit it. Doesn't matter if your attack bonus + 20 is not good enough to hit it normally. The point is there is always a percentage chance something will get hit. And that is what the devs were trying to balance back into the game. I think some of you were taking serious advantage of that lacking in the mechanics and got all butt hurt when it was changed. Maybe if you weren't ubering yourself out with mega agi scores to basically avoid ALL hits from anything, you wouldn't have noticed such a change. </P><P>And yes to me, that makes sence and I'm OK with it. </P><P>Dwarf monk for the win!! :smileyvery-happy:</P><hr></blockquote>There is a difference between a -chance- to take a hit and a -chance- to NOT take a hit.. and thats the difference we are talking about here squid.When the definition of the classes abilities INCLUDES the fact that you are able to handle incoming damage by AVOIDING the hit, and you are NOT getting that result.. then there is a problem. Mitigation of damage comes from the armor, not from dodging.. and we do NOT get the armor to do good mitigation.... so by balance we need to get the avoidance. You seem to be thinking that the monk should be like a guardian or other "plate" tank.. and should be able to take the hits.... and thats NOT how its supposed to be.

[Squidwalk]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Squidwalker wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Well I'm looking forward to seeing how monk is later in high 20's since that is where you are all saying I'll see a difference. Personally, I'm  thinking "some" of you just don't know how to play a monk. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>OMG you got me!  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>LOL  :smileywink:</P> <P>Somedude, I have played a few RTS games and turn based. I played civ, and warcraft2, and starcraft. I enjoyed the RTS much more then turn based. And yes this isn't a strategy game like those. Dug.    I did miss understand what you said.  </P> <P> </P>

[Coter]

I did get a mod to pass my logs on to a dev, at least so they said. Hopefully we'll see something in a day or two as a response.

[ArivenGemini]

<blockquote><hr>Coterei wrote:I did get a mod to pass my logs on to a dev, at least so they said. Hopefully we'll see something in a day or two as a response.<hr></blockquote>If you end up needing more logs I can start logging on my monk for you, level 22..

[JabC]

<DIV>Quick question, as I am still attempting to figure out how I was nerfed.  While the only thing I notice at level 28.8 (Human) is that I don't avoid the green ^^ like I did before. However, I duo with my girl friend who plays a mystic.  So, I am not sure if her wards were improved and I am just not noticing, but it appears, to me personally, that I am taking the same amount of damage over time as I was before. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, are people saying that Monks are no longer a valid tank, because they get hit more often, or that they get hit harder?  I always assumed Monks were to avoid an amount of damage so that when they did get hit, while taking more damage per hit than a plate tank, it would come close to evening out as far as damage taken over time to plate tanks.</DIV>

[Kalath]

<DIV>It depends what you are fighting, but as MT for a group, fighting typical group encounters (white/yellow conned group mobs), my Monk as MT takes about 30% more damage over the same ammount of time as my friends Guardian (while I am playing said Guardian... only difference is the class, both are very well equiped and upkept... and thats 3 nights of parsed data, multi-hundreds of fights).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That means more heals, more chances for the healer to not be able to keep up with damage spikes, more chances for the monk to die.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That means more heal spamming, more chances for mobs to peel off onto the healer, more chances for the healer to die.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That means Guardians are the better choice at being a tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It does not mean I can't tank ever with my monk, it does not mean I can't take white conned solo mobs (though sometimes risky).  It does however mean that soloing is *much* slower than it once was.  It does mean that monks are no longer an efficient tank and cannot compete with the plate tank classes even when higher level than said plate tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To sum it up, if you are "doing fine" with your monk now, you would be doing about 30% better if your character was a plate tank... so why do you think this is just fine for monks?</DIV>

[Mamasee]

<blockquote><hr>Kalathar wrote:<DIV>It depends what you are fighting, but as MT for a group, fighting typical group encounters (white/yellow conned group mobs), my Monk as MT takes about 30% more damage over the same ammount of time as my friends Guardian (while I am playing said Guardian... only difference is the class, both are very well equiped and upkept... and thats 3 nights of parsed data, multi-hundreds of fights).</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>That means more heals, more chances for the healer to not be able to keep up with damage spikes, more chances for the monk to die.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>That means more heal spamming, more chances for mobs to peel off onto the healer, more chances for the healer to die.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>That means Guardians are the better choice at being a tank.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>It does not mean I can't tank ever with my monk, it does not mean I can't take white conned solo mobs (though sometimes risky). It does however mean that soloing is *much* slower than it once was. It does mean that monks are no longer an efficient tank and cannot compete with the plate tank classes even when higher level than said plate tanks.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>To sum it up, if you are "doing fine" with your monk now, you would be doing about 30% better if your character was a plate tank... so why do you think this is just fine for monks?</DIV><hr></blockquote>You are not a plate tank why do you compare your self to one. If you try to fight like a plate tank you will loose you should use your abilits to your advantage.If you drive your 18 wheeler like a VW bug you will have prolbems.What weapons are you using?

[Inv]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mamaseeta wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kalathar wrote:<BR> <DIV>It depends what you are fighting, but as MT for a group, fighting typical group encounters (white/yellow conned group mobs), my Monk as MT takes about 30% more damage over the same ammount of time as my friends Guardian (while I am playing said Guardian... only difference is the class, both are very well equiped and upkept... and thats 3 nights of parsed data, multi-hundreds of fights).</DIV> <DIV>That means more heals, more chances for the healer to not be able to keep up with damage spikes, more chances for the monk to die.</DIV> <DIV>That means more heal spamming, more chances for mobs to peel off onto the healer, more chances for the healer to die.</DIV> <DIV>That means Guardians are the better choice at being a tank.</DIV> <DIV>It does not mean I can't tank ever with my monk, it does not mean I can't take white conned solo mobs (though sometimes risky). It does however mean that soloing is *much* slower than it once was. It does mean that monks are no longer an efficient tank and cannot compete with the plate tank classes even when higher level than said plate tanks.</DIV> <DIV>To sum it up, if you are "doing fine" with your monk now, you would be doing about 30% better if your character was a plate tank... so why do you think this is just fine for monks?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>You are not a plate tank why do you compare your self to one. If you try to fight like a plate tank you will loose you should use your abilits to your advantage.<BR><BR>If you drive your 18 wheeler like a VW bug you will have prolbems.<BR><BR>What weapons are you using?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV align=left></DIV> <P>First off I have to agree 20's Brawlers still have a big enough perk to out weigh the nerf atm. (probably why it got thru test)  But say wait till 40 area you see huge diference.  I recently have worked up another monk to test this out. its not very bad at that level so it seemed.   </P> <P>As for "Don't fight like a plate tank" [Removed for Content] yeah maybe my problem was grabbing a tower shield and full plate and running around with a sword.  Just curious on "how not to tank like a plate tank"  So you mean we shoudl tuant things and run in circles?  Use a blind fold ?  Not turn on attack?  Oh maybe ya somehow scribe their abilities into your book and use their skills!    LOL tanking is tanking I use my skill so does everyother monk out there.  If there is one monk out there that just stands there and taunts and has auto attack on please send me your email address and I will get ya some help. lol</P> <P>Again I like to point out that Mamaseta has yet to provide any info at all to prove her point of view or to even be able to. But make sure you post yours or mamaseeta be all over ya yelling "hersay hersay foul foul foul!!!"    Gives us a break help enlighten us with real facts.</P> <P>As for solo mobs that is not a big deal heck I never touch one again as long as I can tank for a group again. I can't get tankign roles in grps. And when I sneak into one it ends ina  very unpleasant manner.   I still pull in way more dmg then any plate class 3 levels lower even. (yes that is overall not in a single hit) I expect to get hit harder since I am a AVOIDANCE tank but yet I avoid very little.</P>

[Tully]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You are not a plate tank why do you compare your self to one. If you try to fight like a plate tank you will loose you should use your abilits to your advantage.<BR><BR>If you drive your 18 wheeler like a VW bug you will have prolbems.<BR><BR>What weapons are you using?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Compare myself to another class in my ARCH TYPE? How dare I...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can you read Mamaseeta?  Tell me if you understand what SOE's definition of monk means: (let me help you)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MONKS ARE <FONT color=#ff3300>DISCIPLINED COMBATANTS </FONT>WHO <FONT color=#ff3300>SPECIALIZE IN THE MARTIAL ARTS</FONT>.  THEIR <FONT color=#ff3300>NATURAL AGILITY</FONT> ALLOWS THEM TO <FONT color=#ff3300>AVOID THEIR ENEMY'S BLOWS</FONT> AND STRIKE BACK WITH CLEAN, EFFICIENT <FONT color=#ff3300>COUNTERATTACKS.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>----</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't know about you mama, but I know how to play my monk, and don't appreciate when some lying a s s clown tells me that I don't know how to play just because the last patch ruined my consistency as a tanking character.  I can still tank a lot of stuff, but a lot more will hand my [FaarNerfed!] to me, and in named fights or encounters with 5+ mobs I die almost as fast as a scout would trying to tank.  We are not broken but [FaarNerfed!] something is not right.  I used to tank almost every single XP group I got in before the patch including TS, Varsoons, Runnyeye(32-36), Zek, EL, Nek castle.  Since the patch, i've been the MT for 2 groups and it takes 2 healers and even still it can be a huge struggle on stuff I used to tank easily at 33,34...  All I do is DPS now unless no plate class is within a few miles.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> All my stances and defensive abilities are either App4 or Adept 1.  I constantly have 3-4 self buffs on me and my concentration is full whether dragon stance or sweeping crane+TB or intervene.  I use Martial Discipline before every pull and can even permanantly keep my root AC buff on, not to mention my level 20 training choice: palms open hand.  You wanna tell me what you do differently then me so I can tank just fine all the time....What kind of secrets to the monk class do you own?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mama, you are a hindrance to all monks in this game. You are a troll and a liar, and your innane posts do nothing but confuse the people we need to fix this problem.  You aren't 45 like you said, you're 35 and if you are really 45 then you're argument about being able to tank in Runnyeye fine at 35 was WAY BEFORE the patch.  My guess is you just pressed 4 instead of 3 on accident, and since you can't read didn't notice the mistake.  Please either shut up or quit being so [FaarNerfed!] condescending toward monks trying to help themselves out of the hole we fell in during EQ1.  MOORGUARD SAID I WAS A TANK DAMMIT AND I WANNA BE A TANK.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tully14 on <span class=date_text>02-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:49 AM</span>

[Tully]

<P>eeesh, double post</P><p>Message Edited by Tully14 on <span class=date_text>02-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:42 AM</span>

[Bi]

<blockquote><hr>Mamaseeta wrote:</DIV><hr></blockquote>You are not a plate tank why do you compare your self to one. If you try to fight like a plate tank you will loose you should use your abilits to your advantage.If you drive your 18 wheeler like a VW bug you will have prolbems.What weapons are you using?<hr></blockquote>Actually this is a very poor analogy for a few reasons:the most obvious point being that the only thing they share in common is that they are vehicles.I would equate this to being a Toon; hence comparing a wizard to a guardian.On the point of analogies, this would be more accurate.Driving your VW bug the same way that you would drive your Mini Cooper.Both are Sedan-type cars, designed for 2 people, holding 4-5 maybe at a squeeze.Both handle very differently, but are designed to do the same thing: transport a couple of people from A to B.YES they will handle differently; so therefore your tactics will vary when driving one or the other. Saying this; when offered both of them, then you SHOULD be picking on a more-or-less cosmetic scale for day-to-day work.Sure, for special occasions one will be more ideal than the other; but neither should be significantly better at getting people from A to B.At the moment a monk I would equate to a 1970s skoda.. whereas guardians are functioning much more like a GT.One is significantly better than the other in EVERY instance; and there is no competition, something that SoE have said should be possible; where each archetype can somewhat fill it's role adequately.. the only most obvious 'sore thumbs' of this idea is chanters and brawlers (and to some extent bards - but they do add DPS but on a group scale more than personal)your analogy of a 18wheeler truck vs a small car really has no relevance, I hope you see that now.

[Tay]

<blockquote><hr>bonesbro wrote:<DIV>Had an amusing thought. One of my friends, a barbarian, still thinks he tanks fine at 40. I'm a human and 35 and am having a much worse time. His unbuffed agi is 20-30 points below mine. Wouldn't it be amusing if agility was actually <EM>hurting</EM> our tanking abilities now? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><hr></blockquote>I have suggested this several times now but I dont think anybody has the answer.Once again last night I was in a Wiz, Ranger, Monk grp (No healer) and we did Blue++ without issues, I'm closing in on 31 now maybe it'll all go wrong next level but I think there is some truth to what you and I have said.I have a Kerra Monk associate lvl32 now and he takes (On average) more dmg than me...

[Tay]

<blockquote><hr>Ethelwolf wrote:<DIV>Face it folks, the agility nerf has had a negative effect on all monks. I have a 26 Kerran Monk, I play as DPS only and leave the tanking to the armor classes now. Armor (AC) is much better at mitigating damage then the deflection abilities of Monks. I have no problem with this role. I just wish it had been stated as such before I made the class. If a Brabarian or Dwarven monk lasts longer in a fight, it is probably a stamina issue and not one of agility. In the mean time the zerker I made 9 days ago is now 21 going on 22. I still want a tank so I made one. Monks arn't tanks any more and should be concidered as dps only. It wouldn't hurt if SOE would add a self only buff for monks that beefed up their stamina, agility and strength. The only buff they have now has to be cast on a group member to have effect. This should be replaced with a new self only buff. After all they are adding solo content to the game and many people who play monks like to spend at least some time soloing.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Please stop with the gross generalisations about us being nerfed. I have 1 more lvl under my belt since the patch and it all still seems to be normal'ish for me, I see my kerra friend seemingly taking more dmg but I've not bothered with a parser for the same reason that I dont look at benchmarks (I would rather look at my perception of things than to a parser that says I'm playing crap or whatever) As I keep on saying, 15% from 31 and after getting Wintry Talon (Had it for the last 10%) I seem to be holding my own pretty well. Maybe it'll change and I'll be sure to report that if and when it does.

[RadricTyc]

<DIV>A parser's feelings aren't hurt when a Guardian takes 30% less damage than you in the same encounter.  A parser doesn't  skew results in one fight because of "bad circumstances" and shrug it off.  A parser doesn't try to prove that a Monk is equal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It just tells you "You took 12000 damage" or , "The guardian took 8000 damage".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That, to me, is a fine metric for determining the tankability of anyone.  Take the same encounter and fight it 6 times, 3 with monk and 3 with guardian.  Record the total damage taken by the tanks.  Repeat this for different kinds of encounters.  At the end of the day, I think that you will find that for the great majority of encounters, the guardian takes less damage.  This is especially true when the encounters are orange ++ or higher and come with few group members.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will admit that at level 37 I can tank gree, blue, white, and even some yellow mobs in runnyeye.  But nameds are pretty much out, and anything orange or higher is way more risky with me as tank than a guardian.</DIV><p>Message Edited by RadricTycho on <span class=date_text>02-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:24 AM</span>

[Can]

<DIV>SomeDudeCRO do you like mass posting and flooding a thread?</DIV> <DIV>You're getting good at it esp. with the reply on my post.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Anyway believe what you want but monks are fine tanks, and have higher agi than other fighters.</DIV> <DIV>I'm not saying we are any better, but we aren't worse either.</DIV> <DIV>People who whine about the monk tank just don't know how to use it, and yes it is a stratagy game.</DIV> <DIV>If you know how to use the class it works fine, druids can heal me better than clerics, it all depends on the person playing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We all know that but nice try :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Can]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RioRio wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Canes wrote:<BR> <DIV>The man is right, you guys do complain too much...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In some situations I am the MT even with a guardian in my group.</DIV> <DIV>People who don't like it just don't know how to use the class, and that is how it always works <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Thumbs up to "Monk Race vs Complaint factor"!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Level?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Level 23 Monk --> AC was 100 points more than a level 23 guardian in my group thus I Main Tanked</DIV> <DIV>Happens all the time, the tanks are all similar</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></FONT>

[Kwonryu_DragonFi]

<blockquote><hr>Canes wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>RioRio wrote:<BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Canes wrote:<BR><DIV>The man is right, you guys do complain too much...</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>In some situations I am the MT even with a guardian in my group.</DIV><DIV>People who don't like it just don't know how to use the class, and that is how it always works <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><DIV>Thumbs up to "Monk Race vs Complaint factor"!</DIV><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Level?<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><DIV>Level 23 Monk --> AC was 100 points more than a level 23 guardian in my group thus I Main Tanked</DIV><DIV>Happens all the time, the tanks are all similar</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV></FONT><hr></blockquote>Not at 40+

[RioR]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Canes wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RioRio wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Canes wrote:<BR> <DIV>The man is right, you guys do complain too much...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In some situations I am the MT even with a guardian in my group.</DIV> <DIV>People who don't like it just don't know how to use the class, and that is how it always works <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Thumbs up to "Monk Race vs Complaint factor"!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Level?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Level 23 Monk --> AC was 100 points more than a level 23 guardian in my group thus I Main Tanked</DIV> <DIV>Happens all the time, the tanks are all similar</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I thought so. You are too LOW a level to see what is going on. So this means you did not read the WHOLE thread before you ran your MOUTH. Go back and educate yourself on what we are talking about before you run your mouth about who can't play their class. </P> <P>A monk can still tank up to the late 20's. Then after that the drop off starts. Then things start to get worse the higher in level you get. </FONT></P> <P></FONT> </P> <P><BR></P>

[Coter]

<blockquote><hr>Canes wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>RioRio wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Canes wrote:<DIV>The man is right, you guys do complain too much...</div><DIV> </div><DIV>In some situations I am the MT even with a guardian in my group.</div><DIV>People who don't like it just don't know how to use the class, and that is how it always works <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><DIV>Thumbs up to "Monk Race vs Complaint factor"!</div><HR></blockquote><DIV></div>Level?<HR></blockquote><DIV>Level 23 Monk --> AC was 100 points more than a level 23 guardian in my group thus I Main Tanked</div><DIV>Happens all the time, the tanks are all similar</div><DIV> </div><DIV> </div><DIV> </div></font><hr></blockquote>At level 23 your deflection skill was 130/115, the skill is 3 levels higher then it should be. Most monks between 20 and 23 don't see a big difference, and later in 24 the problem really becomes noticable. Couple nights ago I had a group in TS doing giants, had a 24 paladin tanking, and I had dinged 25. We crossed the bridge to get the 25 goliath's quests, and one of the casters in the group got aggro from below at the same time the tank got aggro from the mob we were pulling. We didn't notice the add until the first caster was dead, at that point the first mob was down, and the 26 templar we had with us had gotten aggro from healing the now paste on the floor caster. I started taunting to get the giant off of the templar, and got aggro as the templar died, I hit phin's, had brawlers stance up, and staggering stance up. In 10 seconds I had to feign, and let the Paladin take aggro, at this point the added giant was at 60% health, the paladin continued to tank the giant until we killed it, ending at 50% health, with the healer dead and unable to heal him, we had an illusionist, which is why we only had one healer, but he was the first caster to go down.As a note at 23 my AC was on average 500 higher then most tanks the same or 1 level higher then me.<p>Message Edited by Coterei on <span class=date_text>02-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:01 AM</span>

[Azazel-Defia]

<DIV>Canes</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take a second and do some research on monks deflection skill in the low 20s before you try using your own experiences as a benchmark for the community.  If you had even read through this one thread you would have seen it mentioned. It has been posted to death and has in fact been commented on by the developers that monk deflection skill in the low 20s is bugged so that you get the benefit of the same deflection that a monk many levels higher than you would have. To be exact, starting at level 20 your deflection skill is set at 139. That is about the skill of a level 28.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At lvl 23 I would agree, and I bet that anyone here would agree, that you can tank competitively. What should worry you is the fact that you are doing it with the skills of a monk several lvls higher than you. What also should worry you is the fact that when the existence of this bug was noted, Moor actually posted that the dev team was aware of it and that the would not be changing it. At that time it was stated that it was not found to be unbalancing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In case you missed that- At the time they did not believe giving monks a deflection skill that made them<STRONG> 8 levels higher in skill </STRONG>was unbalancing or that it impacted the game in any significant way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is funny is that it does impact the game, it makes you a competitive tank. At level 23 you are a competitive tank due to the fact that you react to attacks as if you were 5 levels higher than you are. If it wasnt unbalancing at level 20-27 to have a skill bonus what happens when you hit 28? Are you suddenly at a disadvantage? And remember this was pre big patch agi nerf.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway just wanted to point that out. And I am 1 starring your bash on somedudecro for it being irrelevant. Aside from the mandatory flame war with Mamaseeta he has added good info to this thread.</DIV>

[WackyDakky]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Canes wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RioRio wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Canes wrote:<BR> <DIV>The man is right, you guys do complain too much...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In some situations I am the MT even with a guardian in my group.</DIV> <DIV>People who don't like it just don't know how to use the class, and that is how it always works <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Thumbs up to "Monk Race vs Complaint factor"!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Level?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Level 23 Monk --> AC was 100 points more than a level 23 guardian in my group thus I Main Tanked</DIV> <DIV>Happens all the time, the tanks are all similar</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>You can't compare ACs at 23 and say that they're going to be the same.  Monks have a bugged deflection in the early 20s (check your deflection in your skill list).  Since the new AC is based on deflection, you effectively have the deflection of a level 27 monk at 23.  Compare your ACs together at 25 and 30 and you'll see a difference.</P> <P>The thing that bothers me the most about the new display is that it's touted as "damage reduction over time."  What exactly is the time frame used?  Does this mean that two people with the same AC will take the same damage during a 1 minute time frame? 10 second time frame? 10 minutes?</P>

[Azazel-Defia]

<DIV>Hey Tay I need to know what you are fighting that is blue ^^ and cant kill you before a 3 person DPS group can take it down. That must be one crazy race. Is it solo or group? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am 36 now but at 30-31 even prenerf blue group mobs could connect with enough frequency to make me not want to fight them without a healer, but I cant recall what things were blue at 30-31. Maybe the big loams in RoV?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know I couldnt have tanked blue big loams long enough to kill them with no healer. They had so many hitpoints I would have lost that race, and if a barrage landed I would be in trouble.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also I wanted to say something about killing solo and group mobs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Solo mobs seem to hit me just as frequently as group mobs do. The damage they do seems a bit lower, but connect rate seems to be the same. The biggest difference is that they have such a lower number of hitpoints that the fight becomes a race. A race to see who can land the most damage the fastest. Against orange and even some reds I can win that race with no problem. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once I switch to group mobs the difference shows. Group mobs can soak up so much more damage and hit so much harder that even if they only connect 1 time out of 10 I cant do enough damage fast enough to kill them solo. The only time I can kill a group mob is if it is green. If I can resist enough spells and dodge almost all of the attacks I can slowly chip away at the health of the enemy. This isnt unique to monks, I have seen almost every tank class solo low green group mobs by simply outlasting them. This it at lvl 36, I dont know about higher and I wont comment on it till I am there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I edited this because I saw so many grammar mistakes it embarrassed me :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV>Az</DIV> <DIV>Nek</DIV> <DIV>36 Monk</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <SPAN class=date_text>02-09-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:31 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <SPAN class=date_text>02-09-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:31 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <SPAN class=date_text>02-09-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:33 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <span class=date_text>02-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:34 AM</span>

[Coter]

<blockquote><hr>Azazel-Defiant wrote:<DIV></div><DIV></div><DIV></div><DIV></div><DIV>Hey Tay I need to know what you are fighting that is blue ^^ and cant kill you before a 3 person DPS group can take it down. That must be one crazy race. Is it solo or group? </div><DIV> </div><DIV>I am 36 now but at 30-31 even prenerf blue group mobs could connect with enough frequency to make me not want to fight them without a healer, but I cant recall what things were blue at 30-31. Maybe the big loams in RoV?</div><DIV> </div><DIV>I know I couldnt have tanked blue big loams long enough to kill them with no healer. They had so many hitpoints I would have lost that race, and if a barrage landed I would be in trouble.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>Also I wanted to say something about killing solo and group mobs. </div><DIV> </div><DIV>Solo mobs seem to hit me just as frequently as group mobs do. The damage they do seems a bit lower, but connect rate seems to be the same. The biggest difference is that they have such a lower number of hitpoints that the fight becomes a race. A race to see who can land the most damage the fastest. Against orange and even some reds I can win that race with no problem. </div><DIV> </div><DIV>Once I switch to group mobs the difference shows. Group mobs can soak up so much more damage and hit so much harder that even if they only connect 1 time out of 10 I cant do enough damage fast enough to kill them solo. The only time I can kill a group mob is if it is green. If I can resist enough spells and dodge almost all of the attacks I can slowly chip away at the health of the enemy. This isnt unique to monks, I have seen almost every tank class solo low green group mobs by simply outlasting them. This it at lvl 36, I dont know about higher and I wont comment on it till I am there.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>I edited this because I saw so many grammar mistakes it embarrassed me :smileyvery-happy:</div><DIV>Az</div><DIV>Nek</div><DIV>36 Monk</div><P>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <SPAN class=date_text>02-09-2005</span> <SPAN class=time_text>08:31 AM</span></p><P>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <SPAN class=date_text>02-09-2005</span> <SPAN class=time_text>08:31 AM</span></p><P>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <SPAN class=date_text>02-09-2005</span> <SPAN class=time_text>08:33 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <span class=date_text>02-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:34 AM</span><hr></blockquote>I soloed a grey (Level 19) group x2 mob at level 23 to get the next upgrade to my lightstone necklace, had 30% health left when it was done, but that was from regen. It was looking like a close call about halfway through, until it ran out of power...Green ^^ still can be soloed if you can survive long enough for them to go out of power, once that happens, they are chumps, the problem becomes getting to that point where they are out of power.At 24 I was in commonlands to get the next upgrade for my lightstone necklace, duoed the High Priest of Val'marr with a level 22 Inquisitor, was a tough fight till the group of mobs ran out of power, at that point, it was a cake walk.After that we went to Nek Forest to get some exp, was getting my [Removed for Content] handed to me by blue ^^, but we were still going.About an hour later we had a full group together, with me as the tank, a warden as a back up healer, and 2 assassin, and a necro.I was the highest in the group at 24, the rest were all 22/23, and the necro was 21. I was helping them with their AQ, hunting beavers. With 2 healers it was alright, but a lot of power was spent during the fights, average of waiting a minute or so between pulls.Paddlefoot spawned, White ^^, we all got to full power, I put on all my buffs and pulled him. At the end of the fight everyone was oop, and I was at 10% health, using mend during the fight.<p>Message Edited by Coterei on <span class=date_text>02-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:59 AM</span>

[Bi]

for such a small margin i wouldve picked the guardian to tank if i was a healer cos they take less damage spikes, and they are "unbuffed" far less than monks.(open palm has 30s of usefulness, if you forget staggering stance 1 fight..etc)If it was me as the monk, I wouldve asked to mt if my skill as a tank was better than the guards; if it was on par/worse then i wouldve let the guard tank, purely to ease the healers time gaming.(this is if we are killing whites or yellows only)If we were fighting blues/greens I wouldve tanked purely cos i wont be hit vs greens (dunno why, but I barely need a healer if i play greens right) and blues i take FAR less damage than vs white.The factor which gives us "AC" is well and good, but I take it with a pinch of salt, as although your agi and avoidance will give you "AC" you get mitigation on every hit vs a yellow or orange, whereas with avoidance, you are likely to take 4/5 hits vs a yellow, and I would be suprised if an orange missed you. You get no mitigation on hits as well..Tanking because you have 100 more AC imo isnt a good enough reason imho. especially given that different mobs/cons require different things, and respond in different ways to different tanks :> (maybe stating the obvious but hej..)

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Canes wrote:<BR> <DIV>SomeDudeCRO do you like mass posting and flooding a thread?</DIV> <DIV>You're getting good at it esp. with the reply on my post.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Anyway believe what you want but monks are fine tanks, and have higher agi than other fighters.</DIV> <DIV>I'm not saying we are any better, but we aren't worse either.</DIV> <DIV>People who whine about the monk tank just don't know how to use it, and yes it is a stratagy game.</DIV> <DIV>If you know how to use the class it works fine, druids can heal me better than clerics, it all depends on the person playing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We all know that but nice try :smileyvery-happy:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thanks Captain Obvious.</P> <P>You act as if those of us in here posting @ 50 don't know about agility, or gear, or spell upgrades or tactics.</P> <P>You act as if we aren't aware of the fact that we function better with druid/shaman healers (when I've been in a few forums with others in the brawler community doing nothing but pointing that out ~ as have others).</P> <P>You act as if we just got off IoR, magically became 50 in our newbie gear and died trying to solo a lvl 54+++ groupx4 raid mob and then came to the forums complaining.</P> <P>You should take a step back and realize that most of these people posting logs and parses are the SAME people who before the patch were in here saying we could tank, were in other forums advocating our class as a MT class AND MOST IMPORTANTLY posting all the strats/gear/abilities that we used to be effective monk tanks.</P> <P>I've been in this forum every day since release, I've been pushing our class as a tank class since day one and I've been trying to help other people who wanted to tank build their toons for that role.</P> <P>Gangster has been in here since release posting very informative strats and guides for monks of all levels.</P> <P>So excuse me if I don't bow down to your great post of inifinite wisdom sir.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>02-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:10 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Canes wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RioRio wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Canes wrote:<BR> <DIV>The man is right, you guys do complain too much...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In some situations I am the MT even with a guardian in my group.</DIV> <DIV>People who don't like it just don't know how to use the class, and that is how it always works <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Thumbs up to "Monk Race vs Complaint factor"!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Level?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Level 23 Monk --> AC was 100 points more than a level 23 guardian in my group thus I Main Tanked</DIV> <DIV>Happens all the time, the tanks are all similar</DIV> <DIV></FONT><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Enjoy your bugged deflection, you are in for a big surpise there sir.<BR>

[PrometheusO]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Canes wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>At level 23 Monk --> AC was 100 points more than a level 23 guardian in my group thus I Main Tanked</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Happens all the time, the tanks are all similar</DIV> <DIV></FONT><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Enjoy your bugged deflection, you are in for a big surpise there sir.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> When experience speaks, you should listen, Canes.<BR>

[Porkys]

<DIV>Hi </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Im a lvl 29 gnome monk . I have been playing since the game has been released.My first toon was a guardian. Which I grew tired of quickly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I went fury only to find the  class That i really enjoyed playing the most Monk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> After this patch it ruined the class for me I dislike being a dps gimmick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> So plz Gage keep up the fantasic work and suport for us monks and maybe we can get this problem fixed for us all :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Sweettooth 29 gnome monk neriak</DIV><p>Message Edited by Porkys on <span class=date_text>02-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:00 PM</span>

[TBHt]

I rarely post. I prefer to read through every now an then. But, this thread demanded attention. Squid, worst post ever. You know why you hear complaints from higher AGI race monks? It's because there are more people who play a sensible race rather than a "funny/cool" race. I have nothing against roleplayers, but please do not criticize the people that care more about efectiveness than looking cool when they complain about a nerf- which you would not know about since you're too low. 1 star for you.Ecks31 Monk - KithicorGuardians of Light

[Isa]

<DIV>Give us built in:</DIV> <DIV>Round shield @ 20 (already get)</DIV> <DIV>Kite shield @ 30</DIV> <DIV>Tower shield @ 40</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I honestly think this will provide just enough deflection to put us back in there as adequate and equal tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw, Female halfling monk, hardly the normal power gamer's choice and yet I feel the effects of the last patch at level 30 <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Tay]

<blockquote><hr>RadricTycho wrote:<DIV>A parser's feelings aren't hurt when a Guardian takes 30% less damage than you in the same encounter. A parser doesn't skew results in one fight because of "bad circumstances" and shrug it off. A parser doesn't try to prove that a Monk is equal.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>It just tells you "You took 12000 damage" or , "The guardian took 8000 damage".</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>That, to me, is a fine metric for determining the tankability of anyone. Take the same encounter and fight it 6 times, 3 with monk and 3 with guardian. Record the total damage taken by the tanks. Repeat this for different kinds of encounters. At the end of the day, I think that you will find that for the great majority of encounters, the guardian takes less damage. This is especially true when the encounters are orange ++ or higher and come with few group members.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I will admit that at level 37 I can tank gree, blue, white, and even some yellow mobs in runnyeye. But nameds are pretty much out, and anything orange or higher is way more risky with me as tank than a guardian.</DIV><p>Message Edited by RadricTycho on <span class=date_text>02-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:24 AM</span><hr></blockquote>So, if I parse a mob fight with one that never actually hits me (I beleive I read that avoidance cant be predicted), then a guardian does the same but gets hit...What exactly is that going to show???I dont distrust parsers per se I distrust how people attempt to read into what it actually says. The above example shows that the Monk clearly rocks and is x times better than the guardian because he got hit.Thats what I'm not a big buyer of parsers. Ive seen somebody roll a dice and get 20 6's in a row. Statistics are interesting to say the least.

[Tay]

<blockquote><hr>TBHtjd wrote:I rarely post. I prefer to read through every now an then. But, this thread demanded attention. Squid, worst post ever. You know why you hear complaints from higher AGI race monks? It's because there are more people who play a sensible race rather than a "funny/cool" race. I have nothing against roleplayers, but please do not criticize the people that care more about efectiveness than looking cool when they complain about a nerf- which you would not know about since you're too low. 1 star for you.Ecks31 Monk - KithicorGuardians of Light<hr></blockquote>Erm, Excuse me?I do not consider my Barbarian monk a funny or cool race. I whole heartedly abhor people like you that simply stink of "1337".I can tank various mobs seemingly as well as I did before, So please do not critise people that choose chars you do not agree with. Afterall, arnt you the one having problems right now??

[Tay]

<blockquote><hr>Azazel-Defiant wrote:<DIV>Hey Tay I need to know what you are fighting that is blue ^^ and cant kill you before a 3 person DPS group can take it down. That must be one crazy race. Is it solo or group? </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I am 36 now but at 30-31 even prenerf blue group mobs could connect with enough frequency to make me not want to fight them without a healer, but I cant recall what things were blue at 30-31. Maybe the big loams in RoV?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I know I couldnt have tanked blue big loams long enough to kill them with no healer. They had so many hitpoints I would have lost that race, and if a barrage landed I would be in trouble.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Also I wanted to say something about killing solo and group mobs. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Solo mobs seem to hit me just as frequently as group mobs do. The damage they do seems a bit lower, but connect rate seems to be the same. The biggest difference is that they have such a lower number of hitpoints that the fight becomes a race. A race to see who can land the most damage the fastest. Against orange and even some reds I can win that race with no problem. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Once I switch to group mobs the difference shows. Group mobs can soak up so much more damage and hit so much harder that even if they only connect 1 time out of 10 I cant do enough damage fast enough to kill them solo. The only time I can kill a group mob is if it is green. If I can resist enough spells and dodge almost all of the attacks I can slowly chip away at the health of the enemy. This isnt unique to monks, I have seen almost every tank class solo low green group mobs by simply outlasting them. This it at lvl 36, I dont know about higher and I wont comment on it till I am there.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I edited this because I saw so many grammar mistakes it embarrassed me :smileyvery-happy:</DIV><DIV>Az</DIV><DIV>Nek</DIV><DIV>36 Monk</DIV><P>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <SPAN class=date_text>02-09-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:31 AM</SPAN></P><P>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <SPAN class=date_text>02-09-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:31 AM</SPAN></P><P>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <SPAN class=date_text>02-09-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:33 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Azazel-Defiant on <span class=date_text>02-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:34 AM</span><hr></blockquote>This instance I referred to was actually a named tree in Nek forest, but we have done it with Giants in the Steppes etcMaybe we hit upon a decent non healer grp, I dont know. Magic mobs still kick the cr4p out of me but thats par for the course I guess.

[RadricTyc]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tay wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RadricTycho wrote:<BR> <DIV>A parser's feelings aren't hurt when a Guardian takes 30% less damage than you in the same encounter. A parser doesn't skew results in one fight because of "bad circumstances" and shrug it off. A parser doesn't try to prove that a Monk is equal.</DIV> <DIV>It just tells you "You took 12000 damage" or , "The guardian took 8000 damage".</DIV> <DIV>That, to me, is a fine metric for determining the tankability of anyone. Take the same encounter and fight it 6 times, 3 with monk and 3 with guardian. Record the total damage taken by the tanks. Repeat this for different kinds of encounters. At the end of the day, I think that you will find that for the great majority of encounters, the guardian takes less damage. This is especially true when the encounters are orange ++ or higher and come with few group members.</DIV> <DIV>I will admit that at level 37 I can tank gree, blue, white, and even some yellow mobs in runnyeye. But nameds are pretty much out, and anything orange or higher is way more risky with me as tank than a guardian.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by RadricTycho on <SPAN class=date_text>02-09-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:24 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>So, if I parse a mob fight with one that never actually hits me (I beleive I read that avoidance cant be predicted), then a guardian does the same but gets hit...<BR><BR>What exactly is that going to show???<BR><BR>I dont distrust parsers per se I distrust how people attempt to read into what it actually says. The above example shows that the Monk clearly rocks and is x times better than the guardian because he got hit.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Thats what I'm not a big buyer of parsers. Ive seen somebody roll a dice and get 20 6's in a row.</FONT> Statistics are interesting to say the least.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>So... roll the dice 200 times.  Anything involving randomness can be streaky, but if you repeat the operation many times, the law of averages will always hold true.  Notice, by the way, I said 6 fights, not one or two.  Most parsers will record all of the fights in which you engage.  Then you can go back and review all of the data at once.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hey if you don't like using metrics to test something and would rather wet your finger and hold it up to feel the wind, that's fine, no one will force you.  But, mankind has being using numbers to verify things since he first discovered mathematics.  I wouldn't be so quick to distrust metrics or even statististics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you know precisely what a statistic measures, it is a very powerful tool for understanding phenomena.</DIV>

[Edyil]

<DIV>If and when the new patch now on test becomes live, the premise of this thread will come to pass.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>STR/STA monks > AGI monks</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fun fun....</DIV>

[Coter]

<blockquote><hr>Edyil wrote:<DIV>If and when the new patch now on test becomes live, the premise of this thread will come to pass.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>STR/STA monks > AGI monks</div><DIV> </div><DIV>Fun fun....</div><hr></blockquote>Not true, once you hit 200 strength, there is no increase in damage, and gear can be gotten to increase strength to a point where you get close enough to that 200 mark that with stardard buffs you are there.

[elitewizurd]

<DIV>I am glad I do not see any fellow ogre monks complain about agility.  We are happy with just our STR/STA. :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Tuffy of Najena</DIV>