So whats our roll in the group now?

[Darmi]

<DIV>This isn't just about after this patch, i kinda saw it before the patch too...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After playing today i'm really wondering what our roll in a group is, what do we bring to the group besides DPS?  We can't tank anymore, even before patch we were not the best tanks.  Rarely was a monk gotten to be the MT in a group.  If you want DPS get a rogue class, Rangers/Swash are the same DPS, Assasins more DPS, Troub/Dirge a little less but with songs to augment group DPS.  FD is the only unique thing we have, but FD pulling in this version of EQ is very hard and buggy, the best thing for FD is to use rez stones.  But why get a monk so you can have a FD and have a rez stone party when you can get a rogue and evac?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We don't bring anything to a group, maybe back up tanking.  But as it is now, if your plate tank bites it, that means as a monk, yer gonna get creamed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then again there is that emergency 500 hp mend spell, almost on par with a 3rd healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mamasee]

<blockquote><hr>Darmius wrote:<DIV>This isn't just about after this patch, i kinda saw it before the patch too...</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>After playing today i'm really wondering what our roll in a group is, what do we bring to the group besides DPS? We can't tank anymore, even before patch we were not the best tanks. Rarely was a monk gotten to be the MT in a group. If you want DPS get a rogue class, Rangers/Swash are the same DPS, Assasins more DPS, Troub/Dirge a little less but with songs to augment group DPS. FD is the only unique thing we have, but FD pulling in this version of EQ is very hard and buggy, the best thing for FD is to use rez stones. But why get a monk so you can have a FD and have a rez stone party when you can get a rogue and evac?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>We don't bring anything to a group, maybe back up tanking. But as it is now, if your plate tank bites it, that means as a monk, yer gonna get creamed.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Then again there is that emergency 500 hp mend spell, almost on par with a 3rd healer.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Sigh, there is no best tank, I have no prolbem tanking now, nor did I before.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mamaseeta wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darmius wrote:<BR> <DIV>This isn't just about after this patch, i kinda saw it before the patch too...</DIV> <DIV>After playing today i'm really wondering what our roll in a group is, what do we bring to the group besides DPS? We can't tank anymore, even before patch we were not the best tanks. Rarely was a monk gotten to be the MT in a group. If you want DPS get a rogue class, Rangers/Swash are the same DPS, Assasins more DPS, Troub/Dirge a little less but with songs to augment group DPS. FD is the only unique thing we have, but FD pulling in this version of EQ is very hard and buggy, the best thing for FD is to use rez stones. But why get a monk so you can have a FD and have a rez stone party when you can get a rogue and evac?</DIV> <DIV>We don't bring anything to a group, maybe back up tanking. But as it is now, if your plate tank bites it, that means as a monk, yer gonna get creamed.</DIV> <DIV>Then again there is that emergency 500 hp mend spell, almost on par with a 3rd healer.</DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Sigh, there is no best tank, I have no prolbem tanking now, nor did I before.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Guardian is the best tank hands down, and unfortunately I'm just a normal monk and I do have problems tanking after patch.<BR>

[Mamasee]

<blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Mamaseeta wrote:<BR><BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Darmius wrote:<BR><DIV>This isn't just about after this patch, i kinda saw it before the patch too...</DIV><DIV>After playing today i'm really wondering what our roll in a group is, what do we bring to the group besides DPS? We can't tank anymore, even before patch we were not the best tanks. Rarely was a monk gotten to be the MT in a group. If you want DPS get a rogue class, Rangers/Swash are the same DPS, Assasins more DPS, Troub/Dirge a little less but with songs to augment group DPS. FD is the only unique thing we have, but FD pulling in this version of EQ is very hard and buggy, the best thing for FD is to use rez stones. But why get a monk so you can have a FD and have a rez stone party when you can get a rogue and evac?</DIV><DIV>We don't bring anything to a group, maybe back up tanking. But as it is now, if your plate tank bites it, that means as a monk, yer gonna get creamed.</DIV><DIV>Then again there is that emergency 500 hp mend spell, almost on par with a 3rd healer.</DIV><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Sigh, there is no best tank, I have no prolbem tanking now, nor did I before.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Guardian is the best tank hands down, and unfortunately I'm just a normal monk and I do have problems tanking after patch.<BR><hr></blockquote>You can of course proove that?

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mamaseeta wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mamaseeta wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darmius wrote:<BR> <DIV>This isn't just about after this patch, i kinda saw it before the patch too...</DIV> <DIV>After playing today i'm really wondering what our roll in a group is, what do we bring to the group besides DPS? We can't tank anymore, even before patch we were not the best tanks. Rarely was a monk gotten to be the MT in a group. If you want DPS get a rogue class, Rangers/Swash are the same DPS, Assasins more DPS, Troub/Dirge a little less but with songs to augment group DPS. FD is the only unique thing we have, but FD pulling in this version of EQ is very hard and buggy, the best thing for FD is to use rez stones. But why get a monk so you can have a FD and have a rez stone party when you can get a rogue and evac?</DIV> <DIV>We don't bring anything to a group, maybe back up tanking. But as it is now, if your plate tank bites it, that means as a monk, yer gonna get creamed.</DIV> <DIV>Then again there is that emergency 500 hp mend spell, almost on par with a 3rd healer.</DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Sigh, there is no best tank, I have no prolbem tanking now, nor did I before.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Guardian is the best tank hands down, and unfortunately I'm just a normal monk and I do have problems tanking after patch.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>You can of course proove that?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ask one raid guild who their raid mob tank is.</P> <P>Ask FoH or Ardent Legion.</P> <P>When you are 50 and you are killing dragons I guarantee you that the guy tanking will be a guardian, period.</P> <P>If you see a monk tank Venekor, Vox, Kra'thunk etc please be sure to let me know <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Of course you still probably need 20 levels for most of that content <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Darmi]

<DIV>I'm sitting in a group right now with a 35 guardian and me a 35 monk, I don't tank anywhere near as well as she can.  My fiance is sitting next to me the sole, healer in the group lvl 32 mystic, the cleric is dead atm.  I'm watching her heal both of us as i play around with agro, we can't tank as well as a guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm also a halfing, the higest base Agility race.  My list AC is 100 points higher than the Guardian in Brawler/Swan stance.  We tried to take brewmaster in RE with me tanking, we evac'd, came back let guard tank, worked fine both healers over 33% mana.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We can't tank, maybe at 50 or something, maybe at 20. Dunno</DIV>

[SomeDudeCRO]

Guardians are the best, before the patch with high agi (not exploit high, but high) we were just as good if not better. I'm fine with not being as good as a guardian tank, but to be significantly inferior just plain sucks.Offtank? Why a monk? Any other fighter has similar dps to us and they make much better offtanks. If a group wants a off tank, a brawler should be the last pick, as really any scout offtanks about as well as we do now and any other fighter is far superior.

[xrippe]

<DIV>Looks like we have been turned into the EQ1 monk after all.  Maybe someday they will push monks to the scout class and trade in our taunts for evade skills... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yenyang Angrydragon</DIV> <DIV>29 Ogre Monk</DIV> <DIV>Kithicore</DIV><p>Message Edited by xripperx on <span class=date_text>02-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:24 AM</span>

[Bladewind]

<DIV>I am not having significant problems tanking in the low 30's, but this appears to be an insulated bubble in the level range from what I have been reading on the forums and heard from other monks in game.  I have seen two possible remedies suggested thus far that would restore our tanking ability without recreating the issues with non-fighter classes being able to tank that were present prepatch.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the bruiser forum, someone suggested adding deflection bonuses to our stances and/or short-term buffs.  This would in effect boost our avoidance (i look at avoidance as avoiding damage, so block/parry/riposte falls under that category for me) while not tampering with the abilities of other classes.  We would be hit less, and thus take less damage - putting the amount of damage we take in a given encounter back on par with plate tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On this forum, I saw someone suggest increasing the power of the "built-in" shield to kite at 30 and to tower at 40.  This would have a similar effect as the above suggestion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think either of these courses of action would be a very simple way to restore our abilities without mucking around with sweeping stat changes that effect every class.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By changing the agility system and increasing mob abilities, the developers changed two variables at once.  In hindsight, a more sensible approach would have been to change one at a time, such as, say, changing agility without changing the mobs first.  By changing both at once, the initial point of reference was distorted.</DIV>

[Rori]

<blockquote><hr>Darmius wrote:<DIV>This isn't just about after this patch, i kinda saw it before the patch too...</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>After playing today i'm really wondering what our roll in a group is, what do we bring to the group besides DPS? We can't tank anymore, even before patch we were not the best tanks. Rarely was a monk gotten to be the MT in a group. If you want DPS get a rogue class, Rangers/Swash are the same DPS, Assasins more DPS, Troub/Dirge a little less but with songs to augment group DPS. FD is the only unique thing we have, but FD pulling in this version of EQ is very hard and buggy, the best thing for FD is to use rez stones. But why get a monk so you can have a FD and have a rez stone party when you can get a rogue and evac?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>We don't bring anything to a group, maybe back up tanking. But as it is now, if your plate tank bites it, that means as a monk, yer gonna get creamed.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Then again there is that emergency 500 hp mend spell, almost on par with a 3rd healer.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>Simple... MAIN TANK. All this bickering about nerfs, and still haven't had a problem tanking, nor do I expect to have one.

[grindell187]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mamaseeta wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mamaseeta wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darmius wrote:<BR> <DIV>This isn't just about after this patch, i kinda saw it before the patch too...</DIV> <DIV>After playing today i'm really wondering what our roll in a group is, what do we bring to the group besides DPS? We can't tank anymore, even before patch we were not the best tanks. Rarely was a monk gotten to be the MT in a group. If you want DPS get a rogue class, Rangers/Swash are the same DPS, Assasins more DPS, Troub/Dirge a little less but with songs to augment group DPS. FD is the only unique thing we have, but FD pulling in this version of EQ is very hard and buggy, the best thing for FD is to use rez stones. But why get a monk so you can have a FD and have a rez stone party when you can get a rogue and evac?</DIV> <DIV>We don't bring anything to a group, maybe back up tanking. But as it is now, if your plate tank bites it, that means as a monk, yer gonna get creamed.</DIV> <DIV>Then again there is that emergency 500 hp mend spell, almost on par with a 3rd healer.</DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Sigh, there is no best tank, I have no prolbem tanking now, nor did I before.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Guardian is the best tank hands down, and unfortunately I'm just a normal monk and I do have problems tanking after patch.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>You can of course proove that?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ask one raid guild who their raid mob tank is.</P> <P>Ask FoH or Ardent Legion.</P> <P>When you are 50 and you are killing dragons I guarantee you that the guy tanking will be a guardian, period.</P> <P>If you see a monk tank Venekor, Vox, Kra'thunk etc please be sure to let me know <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Of course you still probably need 20 levels for most of that content <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>being on the same server as FoH and talking to them personally, since most of them have alts my lvl range (lvl 32 atm), they use guardians from i have been told for their MT's. </P> <P> </P> <P>but tell me mama, why is it everytime i read a post and gage posts....you quote him and start a bickering session? if you two have issues, why not solve them by starting your own personal thread and get it over with? or pm each other rather than everytime he posts you quote and question 97.3% of what gage says. </P> <P>sorry if i got off topic with this, but i am tired of reading stuff and see it turn into bickering when someone is asking a question. </P> <P> </P> <P>grindell</P> <P>perma-server</P>

[grindell187]

<DIV>and as i said above, i am a lvl 32 monk and my role changes depending on the group. if i am the lower lvl fighter type in the group, i stand behind the mob and kick its butt. if i am the higher lvl fighter in the group...guess what...i stand in front of that sucker and bash him in the face with my baton/fist. so i personally think that it depends on who is in the group as to what monks/bruisers do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>grindell</DIV> <DIV>perma-server</DIV>

[Edyil]

<DIV> <DIV>The biggest issue that Monks have right now is the word "Efficiency".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Main Entry: <B>ef·fi·cien·cy</B><BR>Pronunciation: i-'fi-sh&n-sE<BR>Function: <I>noun</I><BR>Inflected Form(s): <I>plural</I> <B>-cies</B><BR><B>1</B> <B>:</B> the quality or degree of being <A href="http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=efficient" target=_blank>efficient</A><BR><B>2 a</B> <B>:</B> <A href="http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=efficient" target=_blank>efficient</A> operation <B>b </B>(1) <B>:</B> <FONT color=#ff0000>effective operation as measured by a comparison of production with cost (as in energy, time, and money) (2) <B>:</B> the ratio of the useful energy delivered by a dynamic system to the energy supplied to it</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks can tank.  But the EFFICIENCY is far far below that of plate classes.  Learn the terminology so you can understand the problem.  Saying "Monks cant tank" is both untrue and hurtfull to our cause.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks can tank...  But we are a massive waste of time and reasorces to do so and the risk far outweighs the rewards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stop bickering and learn to express yourselves in a manner that will help us Monks down the road.  We all know there is a problem (ignoring the trolls), but lets try to keep it realistic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As to the question of the OP:  My monks role is to collect dust while I play around with my pally and level up a Guardian.  Maybe by the time the Guard hits 30, the Monks deflection will be fixed.  I believe a couple of us on these boards agree that the problem exists in shields (our built in vs the plates secondary) and how they scale.  They are not one in the same.  Add that to the fact that Monks should (but dont) outdamage plate tanks by a large margin to make up for the large hits taken and we see the mess we currently have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, its all about efficiency.</DIV></DIV>

[amogl]

<DIV>99% of the time i'm dps... i'm top of most parser lists. This of course is from the same postion a scout usually takes (behind). I used to tank a bit... don't anymore.</DIV>

[Neofa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Monks can tank...  But we are a massive waste of time and reasorces to do so and the risk far outweighs the rewards. <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree, Monks and Bruisers (Brawlers), can tank technically, hell any class CAN stand in front of a mob and take a few hits. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>But,.. as you say and I well overstated in a few areas, we simply don't tank adequately enough for even the general Experience group.  We aren't asking or questioning our ability to tank Named, or even Dragons for raids.  Just the regular experience group, with regular non named mobs.  Basically we want to be ABLE to fill the role of Main Tank in a regular group from level 1 to level 50.  </P> <P>Taking on a monk or bruiser as your main tank is just dumb right now. Let me add, from what I've read it seems that this tanking "nerf" is only noticed Blatently in the upper tiers, Tier4 and 5.  By that I mean a level 20-35ish might be kosher in tanking pre and post patch, however a level 40-50 noticed the first mob they engaged the first time they logged in post patch.  Back to accepting a monk or bruiser as your main tank:  Honestly, if I were a healer or simply a group leader my last choice for a tank is going to be either a Beserker or Knight.  I will prefer a Guardian, and if that isn't readily available I am going for the Knight or Berserker.  This should be:  I prefer a guardian, but I can settle for a Knight type, or beserker, and if I have to, a Brawler type will do.  Especially if I have grouped with said Brawler in the past.  As of now in the upper levels we aren't an option.  We are simply a HUGE risk to a group.  Where as before it was about 50/50 on the "rumor" that Brawlers could tank effectively or not, but now it is a fact for the upper levels.  (I keep mentioned upper because that is all I have experience with since the patch, and I have seen a few say they have no problems, but they seem to be either low or midrange.)</P> <P>To answer the OP question directly:  Quite frankly, our role is a pretty good DPS (filler class), and if they are really digging deep an emergency class if evac fails and the Brawler manages to FD AND the healer remembered to give them a Rez item.  </P> <P>Our role should be:  DPS, or Tank with DPS lowered significantly since the Brawler has to use a totally different set of abilities to perform the Tanking role.  Two roles, one better than the other, but both options.</P> <P>Take care,</P> <P>Neo<BR></P>

[Karla]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mamaseeta wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darmius wrote:<BR> <DIV>This isn't just about after this patch, i kinda saw it before the patch too...</DIV> <DIV>After playing today i'm really wondering what our roll in a group is, what do we bring to the group besides DPS? We can't tank anymore, even before patch we were not the best tanks. Rarely was a monk gotten to be the MT in a group. If you want DPS get a rogue class, Rangers/Swash are the same DPS, Assasins more DPS, Troub/Dirge a little less but with songs to augment group DPS. FD is the only unique thing we have, but FD pulling in this version of EQ is very hard and buggy, the best thing for FD is to use rez stones. But why get a monk so you can have a FD and have a rez stone party when you can get a rogue and evac?</DIV> <DIV>We don't bring anything to a group, maybe back up tanking. But as it is now, if your plate tank bites it, that means as a monk, yer gonna get creamed.</DIV> <DIV>Then again there is that emergency 500 hp mend spell, almost on par with a 3rd healer.</DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Sigh, there is no best tank, I have no prolbem tanking now, nor did I before.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sure there is the best tank is a plate tank.  Was before the patch, still is after just to more of a degree now.  What is your character name on Steamfront?</DIV>

[Karla]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Edyil wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>The biggest issue that Monks have right now is the word "Efficiency".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Main Entry: <B>ef·fi·cien·cy</B><BR>Pronunciation: i-'fi-sh&n-sE<BR>Function: <I>noun</I><BR>Inflected Form(s): <I>plural</I> <B>-cies</B><BR><B>1</B> <B>:</B> the quality or degree of being <A href="http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=efficient" target=_blank>efficient</A><BR><B>2 a</B> <B>:</B> <A href="http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=efficient" target=_blank>efficient</A> operation <B>b </B>(1) <B>:</B> <FONT color=#ff0000>effective operation as measured by a comparison of production with cost (as in energy, time, and money) (2) <B>:</B> the ratio of the useful energy delivered by a dynamic system to the energy supplied to it</FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks can tank.  But the EFFICIENCY is far far below that of plate classes.  Learn the terminology so you can understand the problem.  Saying "Monks cant tank" is both untrue and hurtfull to our cause.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks can tank...  But we are a massive waste of time and reasorces to do so and the risk far outweighs the rewards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stop bickering and learn to express yourselves in a manner that will help us Monks down the road.  We all know there is a problem (ignoring the trolls), but lets try to keep it realistic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As to the question of the OP:  My monks role is to collect dust while I play around with my pally and level up a Guardian.  Maybe by the time the Guard hits 30, the Monks deflection will be fixed.  I believe a couple of us on these boards agree that the problem exists in shields (our built in vs the plates secondary) and how they scale.  They are not one in the same.  Add that to the fact that Monks should (but dont) outdamage plate tanks by a large margin to make up for the large hits taken and we see the mess we currently have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, its all about efficiency.</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This is the problem with mystics.  Can they heal?  Yes. Are they efficient?  No.</FONT></DIV>

[Coter]

Our role in the group now is pretty much DPS, and we don't do bad in that department. Sure we can tank if we need to, but honestly, we do such a poor job, it doesn't last long. When healers use all their power in a fight with us as tanks vs white/yellow mobs, and only 1/4 power on a plate class of the same or lower level, the obvious choice is have the plate tank tank.

[RioR]

<DIV>We have been turned into a ranger without a bow. :smileywink:</DIV>

[Coter]

<blockquote><hr>RioRio wrote:<DIV>We have been turned into a ranger without a bow. :smileywink:</div><hr></blockquote>Actually I do more DPS then a ranger with out a bow. =p

[Horribl]

<DIV>I think our role is Comic Releif. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just as it is in EQ1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>FD which is a pratt fall</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Silent Fist Kata looks like some bizaare tumbling show.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All I need is my Kobold Jester Cap from EQ1 and I am all set.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other than being someone fun to play with why would someone group with a Monk?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are classes that do each of our abilities better.</DIV>

[RalphSmi]

<DIV>Though I've tried to follow all of the posts about the agi nerf and recent patch, at lvl 26, I havent noticed a difference in tanking with my Kerran Monk.  I do have farily good agi at my lvl 96 I beleive unbuffed and strength as well 87 with all tailored armor and good duals.  I did however notice the mobs hit harder and I slightly miss more often, but I am still able to solo and tank in groups up to lvl 30.  It appears from what I've been reading that the 35-40+ lvl monks are feeling it the most.  If there is a plate tank in the group at least a lvl or two higher I usually let them tank, as I feel I can do alot more damage while not being beat on then the plate tank can with their choice of weapon not being beat on as well.  I soon hope to hit the 30's by the weekend, and will then see if there is a major change in my lvl as well as the lvl of mobs in terms of tanking and what role I play.</DIV>

[RalphSmi]

<DIV>Also in regard to the original post, I was sought after often to tank for my lvl group.  And with a defiler in group with their single ward, I was able to tank non-stop at a gnoll camp in TS almost non-stop for hours because the defiler never used any mana.  Buffed my agility is around 127 if I rememeber and str being 115 or so.  So Im really thinking this nerf has effected teh higher lvl players/mobs.  If you are tanking with a templer or another class with reactive heals you might use alot more mana due to the way their healing spells work.  But I used the same opening tankign technique with every fight to try and optimize agil/deflection/aviodence.  I also made Martial Focus Adept 3 which might make things easiler as well as Brawlers Stance App IV.</DIV>