We will never be as good a Tank as Guardians!! or other Plate Classes here is why..

[Musashi-]

There is alot of hubbub on the Other Fighter boards about Brawlers getting a built in Shield, good DPS etc etc and Brawlers tanking better than they do.So reading all this alot of my guild mates feel the built in shield is going to be a NERF more than anything for brawlers. They believe we will tank worse when the shield patch finally goes in.Reminds me of the days in eQ1 when warriors complained about Monks tanking as well as them then Monks got NERFED badly.Anyone have thoughts on this?

[Zakane]

I am a lvl 24 Hafling monk I may not be very high and I m hurting in the hp department but Love him to death. But as it stands I do not think monks can tanks well what so ever. I can hold more damge and aggro then a dps but by no means do I feel as if we can tank even 25% as well as plates. Sure I don't think our ac should be higher there these..but I do think we should be able to tank by other means. More dodge more parry more blocks more repitose would be nice. Martial arts train this and really I feel I get hit alot even with brawlers stance and my Martial Parry skill up.

[Aetheris]

<DIV>Greetings and salutations! My name is Aetheris and I'm a Monk of the 40th Season on the CrushBone server. I would just like to enlighten some of the disbelievers that monks do infact make great tanks. If you are experiencing trouble in tanking, it can be a multitude of things that YOU are doing wrong. For example, when I'm tanking level 45's in Cazic-Thule I have 2 hotbars up. This allows me to utilize all my self-buffs that are made for tanking. I use my swooping crane stance, coupled with a constant recast of controled breathing. When I can, I heal myself using Adept 1 of Compress. When tanking I also use my prouncing tiger skill as often as possible, lowering my enemies agility, and ultimately making him miss quite a bit more than had I not. I have had many compliments from healers of all types at my abilites for tanking and keeping aggro, and my guild frequently seeks my assistance. Now, even with all of this in mind, our tanking abilites revolve around dodging. I know not what you are trying to tank, but be sure to take into consideration the color of the mob you are fighting. It is quite difficult to dodge a mob that con's red. I would suggest only tanking yellow mob's or below for regular groups, of course guild groups can be much more effective an thus be an exception.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope this has help shed some light on a Monk's ability to tank. If you're having problems tanking try doing things differently, as there are many different combinations of skills and combat arts. As far as nerf'ing a monks ability to shield, I believe that's nonsense. All interviews point and direct players that they are making each figher class a good tank in their own way, and have done nothing but stress a Monk's role is different than that of EQ1's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sincerely,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aetheris</DIV> <DIV>40th Season</DIV> <DIV>Crushbone</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note: Be sure that when tanking you stop using combat arts that trade life for dmg. Such skills include Stumbling Boar and the rest of it's skill tree.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Aetheris on <span class=date_text>12-19-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:18 AM</span>

[Mamasee]

It is amazing that all these people say monks cannot tank however they provied no actual proof of this.Why is that?SOE says we are a tank just like any other fighter class, its up to you to prove them wrong!

[asteldian]

<DIV>Cant say ive seen many complaints about monk getting inbuilt shields.  I think its a great idea.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the title of this thread, well, it all depends-against red and orange mobs the monk wont be as good as a plate class, avoidance tanking is less safe than mitigation due to luck being a big factor, against red/orange mobs the hits are hard and more frequent, which is why the plate class is better.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Against blue and green mobs the monk is laughing and can tank them all day even more effectively than plate class most the time.  So you arent getting the big xp per kill but you are killing lots and fast due to no down time and easy killing due to how effective you are at tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You lose a bit of safety in your tanking for the increased DPS, fighting the right kind of mobs can negate this safety loss meaning you have the decent DPS and can tank incredibly well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Healer type can make a big difference too-shamans often love the monk tank due to them making the most of wards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The key is to find your strengths and make use of them.  There are those who will always be 'not as good' as everyone else because they spend their time dwelling on their own weaknesses and envying everyone elses strengths</DIV><p>Message Edited by asteldian on <span class=date_text>12-19-2004</span> <span class=time_text>06:20 AM</span>

[i3ry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Musashi- wrote:<BR><BR>So reading all this alot of my guild mates feel the built in shield is going to be a NERF more than anything for brawlers. They believe we will tank worse when the shield patch finally goes in.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well guys, the authorities have spoken =/<BR>

[Musashi-]

It happened in EQ1 and I am afraid the complaints from the other fighter classes will cause it to happen again.I love the fact I can tank as well as any other class. I love the fact groups want me for MY DPS and utility buffs. I love the built in shield......I am just making an observation from the other boards and thier threads. You can discuss it or flame as you will.<p>Message Edited by Musashi- on <span class=date_text>12-19-2004</span> <span class=time_text>06:20 AM</span>

[shonuf]

<DIV>we are not meant to be tanks..its simple..we dont tank well..i can deal w/that..in EQ1 yes i could but i was always the puller then too..but not w/not being able to split pull..monks are just another DPS...we need a defined role for a group..the split pulling made the monk..even if you had avg gear..the way you played your monk made your rep..i miss that aspect..monks in EQ2 seem not to take much ability to play..its simple..i hope that sony implements a better system than the one we have. make the monk more valuable to a group other than DPS.</DIV>

[Graz]

<DIV>Its not that we cant tank. We can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its that we require more alertness from the healer. That doesnt happen in a lot of groups. And since the healer thinks "I can heal that other tank just fine!!" it must be the monk's fault .. right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Feh.</DIV>

[RadricTyc]

<DIV>The people who say monks cannot tank are maybe not high enough level yet to make that statement.  At level 25-27 there is a radical change in a monk's tanking ability.  His armor starts to fit him better, his agility/parry skills start to work better, he gains skills that improve these.  Also, when choosing racial traditions etc., choose in this order: AGI, STA, STR.  Don't fall for defense buffs or special procs, they will not serve you as well as better base stats.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The secret with monk is AGI and +AGI buffs.  When I am tanking I can have over 100 AGI now.  This makes it practically impossible for anything blue con or lower to even hit me, and for white to yellow con I dodge far more damage than a warrior's mitigation absorbs.  Red cons are a different story, at my level I would prefer a warrior or crusader tank those.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The great thing about monk is that we can answer the following questions:</DIV> <UL> <LI>Are you a damage dealer?  Yes</LI> <LI>Are you a tank?  Yes</LI> <LI>Are you an offtank?  Yes</LI> <LI>Are you a utility class?  Yes</LI></UL> <P>With all of our various skills and such, it makes playing the game tons of fun.  Many tanks mostly get damage/buff/debuff/aggro combat arts.  We actually get a variety of useful skills that make playing the game fun.  The down side is that our attacks seem to generate less hate than say a berserker.  So grouping and being the tank with a berserker is tough.  They tend to pull mobs off you and if they get them, the mobs are stuck to them like iron to an electric magnet.  This is something I hope the devs deal with in the future.</P> <DIV>In all of my tanking I do not use a shield, instead I wield 2 firwood batons with high AGI bonuses.  If they add a shield for us built in, it will only make me a better tank, certainly not a worse one.</DIV>

[shaolen]

<DIV>I agree with Aetheris and the previous poster.  At lvl 24 I was able to solo lvl 25-27 skeletons in TS with not problems.   Just make sure you use all the abilites you have at your disposal.  We are good tanks we just have to work harder at it than the plate classes. </DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> shonuf wrote:<BR> <DIV>we are not meant to be tanks <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>No no, I just think you aren't meant to be a monk.</DIV>

[Musashi-]

I agree. WE ARE TANKS and ARE meant to be tanks. It will be interesting to see how the other Tank Classes respond to us not using shields. Because when they use shields they lose 50% of their DPS now we can do the same DPS w/o a sheild and tanks as well.

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>Yes i have also noted that something will happen eventually, if you read the Guardian and Berserker class boards you will see we are kicking up a bit of a storm, and they are complaining, not one or two poeple but LOTS of people have something to say about our tanking abilities. Alot of people fail to see that there is a difference to being able to tank and the difference to being a effcient tank, and we all know that we can tank. If u guys take a step back for a second you will see the orginal post isnt about us not being able to tank, its about the other class's complaining about how good we can tank, i showed up a lvl 27 Guardian last night, now ethier two things were a miss:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) his gear sucked, mind you, i dont use a sheild at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) he had no clue to as what he was doing, which in turn makes me wonder how he got to lvl 27 and makes me wonder again how long it has taken him to get there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thing i am really interested in is how is our innate sheild ability going to be implemented, i have seen alot of monks on my server running around with a 200ac + sheild, now how are they going to implement a 200ac+ item into a innate ability when its only the deflection we are getting added from having the sheild equipped, keep in mind deflection doesnt add to AC. Looks to me as we might have a few very unhappy tanking monks. We get a leg up having our Deflection increased and our DPS BUT at the cost of AC, for me though i tank just fine with out a sheild and cant wait for the implemention to take place. This is why i didnt go buy myself a sheild cause i knew it would be changed, like i have said before, dont get too comfy with anything for the next 4-6 months, game mechanics are going to change willy nilly alot in this period, same happens on any new game, not just here on EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR>"We are the two halves of the Flowing Circle, the light and the dark. If either grows too weak or too strong, the circle collapses on itself. Here, I will draw a Flowing Circle in the sand for you. Meditate upon the dual nature of our order and ourselves as you practice Kitten Swims Upstream. Perhaps, if you learn something from your meditations, Brother Tenshin will teach the kitten to become a tiger."</DIV>

[Cora]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> shonuf wrote:<BR> <DIV>we are not meant to be tanks <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>No no, I just think you aren't meant to be a monk.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Change your name to CD-R  - you got burned!</DIV>

[shonuf]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> shonuf wrote:<BR> <DIV>we are not meant to be tanks <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>No no, I just think you aren't meant to be a monk.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>i was a monk before most my friend..and just not afraid of posting the failures that i have noticed thus far. most that have played EQ1 from kunark on will know what i am saying..the monk feel is not there, w/out playing from the beginning i doubt you know what i am talking about..i enjoy your posts and i guess i must have got under your skin somehow, and if i did i apologize, i just had high expectations of this class and so far they have not lived up to my expectations. i still play hoping that w/expansions and patches they might implement a better system than we have now. monks before PoP in EQ1 were pullers..FD pulling this is not the case in EQ2, we now have to stand still to mend. no more instill doubt soloing kiting. just the old school monks know what i am talking about. EQ2 is good but w/our class they have dropped the ball. and did you play a monk in EQ1? if you did my friend i would have thought you might share some of my sentiments, you seem to be a avid player and very knowledgealbe thus far, but most that i have seen we are just candy coated EQ1 monks..no real skill needs to be used playing these monks. please flame if you must, but my opinion stands with Experience.</DIV>

[Wintermoo]

<DIV> <DIV>Man...it gets very tiring seeing post after post about about people thinking monks can't tank.  All you have to is be slightly active in the community and you will see post after post explaining that we can, why we can and HOW we can.  If you have enough time to come here and post ignorance, then take that time and read some of the work that people have done to figure out how our class operates.  I mostly troll the boards and I get tired of it, I'm positive players like Gage and Zad get tired of repeating themselves...I'm not about to repeat all that information here either, but here is a gem for you:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks can tank as well as any other class if you know how to set up your group and how to play your character.  If you are not able to tank and tank WELL in your groups, you are doing something wrong!  Go out and learn your class and how we interact with others (specific healing classes in particular) and you will be more than happy with the direction that EQII is going with this game.  Go to the Zerks boards and you will see similar arguments and whining.  The new sub classes may take a little work and some trial and error to get good with...so welcome to the game.  If it's too much for you to figure out then continue on your merry way and be miserable with whatever class you pick.</DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Wintermoonx on <SPAN class=date_text>12-19-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:19 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Wintermoonx on <span class=date_text>12-19-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:23 PM</span>

[Wintermoo]

<DIV>Another aside.  The only issue with our built in shield ability I can see is that we will be loosing out on any nice stats the high level shields will have.  Seeing the way this game loads items up on stats we will be missing out on a TON of them for our extra damage output.  This is probably the best way SOE decided on to keep all classes as balanced as possible.  Hopefully that percieved balance will keep the nerf herders at bay :smileywink:</DIV>

[Cora]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wintermoonx wrote:<BR> <DIV>Another aside.  The only issue with our built in shield ability I can see is that we will be loosing out on any nice stats the high level shields will have.  Seeing the way this game loads items up on stats we will be missing out on a TON of them for our extra damage output.  This is probably the best way SOE decided on to keep all classes as balanced as possible.  Hopefully that percieved balance will keep the nerf herders at bay :smileywink:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> ..... but you get a second weapon with stats instead of a shield with stats..

[Wintermoo]

<DIV>True, but I would think shields would decidedly have more since that is their nature...to give support (i.e. more hp's/resists/etc).  Who knows...the patch isn't even in yet, so we don't know how it will pan out with other changes that will be made.  I'm just trying to be optimisitc.  EQII will be just like EQI, they will never stop patching and changing things.  It is Ever Refinement as much as it is Ever Quest.</DIV> <DIV>:smileytongue:</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> shonuf wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> shonuf wrote:<BR> <DIV>we are not meant to be tanks <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>No no, I just think you aren't meant to be a monk.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>i was a monk before most my friend..and just not afraid of posting the failures that i have noticed thus far. most that have played EQ1 from kunark on will know what i am saying..the monk feel is not there, w/out playing from the beginning i doubt you know what i am talking about..i enjoy your posts and i guess i must have got under your skin somehow, and if i did i apologize, i just had high expectations of this class and so far they have not lived up to my expectations. i still play hoping that w/expansions and patches they might implement a better system than we have now. monks before PoP in EQ1 were pullers..FD pulling this is not the case in EQ2, we now have to stand still to mend. no more instill doubt soloing kiting. just the old school monks know what i am talking about. EQ2 is good but w/our class they have dropped the ball. and did you play a monk in EQ1? if you did my friend i would have thought you might share some of my sentiments, you seem to be a avid player and very knowledgealbe thus far, but most that i have seen we are just candy coated EQ1 monks..no real skill needs to be used playing these monks. please flame if you must, but my opinion stands with Experience.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I apologize that you logged into EQ2 and expected EQ1.  That isn't my fault however, and our class plays as the archetype it is: fighter.</P> <P>SoE has said from the beginning this game is for those people who did NOT like EQ1, they wanted to get lost customers back.</P> <P>While your overall monk experience may be more than me, this isn't EQ1 my friend, and I play monk the way its supposed to be played <EM>in this game.</EM><BR></P>

[Dooy]

<DIV>I played EQ for a long time.  I played a monk in EQ, as well as a chanter, warrior, cleric, and a host of other classes all past 50.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I stopped paying for my EQ account about end of may.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I started playing EQ2 in beta, and ever since I started downloading the beta not once did I think this was going to be even similar to EQ.  Hell even SoE themselves said they wished they never called it EQ2.  Its a different game, different land.  Monks are not monks.  If you are already waiting for expansion to hopefully change the core part of the game, perhaps just log off and go try another game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I enjoy my monk.  I can tank, heck I was tanking ^^ yellow giants in TS the other day with just a shaman as healer and a ranger as the only other member.  3 of us taking out yellow ^^ giants at lvl 23.  And they were lvl 25 ones as well as 24.  We had some close calls, but the best part was we had fun.</DIV>

[Cora]

<DIV>It's true, this game is a lot <STRIKE>worse</STRIKE> different than EQ 1. I <STRIKE>want to quit</STRIKE> can't stop playing because I've been sapped of free will, though. My server only seems to have lame family guilds. I come from a raiding uberguild and I dislike the lack of uberguilds... mostly because they all went to WoW, but this has nothing to do with the topic!</DIV>

[Dooy]

<DIV>Ok, to be more on topic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everyone that came from EQ1 to play EQ2 still has the mindset of the EQ1 days.  Where it turned out to be every class for themselves.  Not sure if you guys remember the whole warrior sit in crap that happened a year and a bit a go?  I do, I was a monk that actually joined in a bit, or at least supported the warriors in thier need for upgrades.  Then they got them, 2 weeks later the monk community made thier voices heard that the mitigation nerf should be reversed, and DPS of the monks upped somewhat.  Thinking some of the other classes may happen to support us in this, considering that it was a huge need to the class, most the community was shocked to find the same warriors that asked us for help shunning us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically what I am saying is this.  I do not want this to be EQL.  THis is a new game, new slate, there is room in this town for all of us.  If the other classes get upgrades, by all means good for them.  If they want to complain about my class, so be it.  I will be the bigger man and just ignore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Who cares what others think, play the game please.  Do not turn this into the hellhole EQL was.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>The ironic thing is, what Monks can do in <STRONG><U>THIS</U></STRONG> game is what monks used to be able to do in EQ1. The monk communtiy is non exsitant on EQ1 cause they all quit, because of what they did to monks, in a bid to get people staying and paying SoE, they made monks able to tank once again here in EQ2, there is no difference from what monks used to be able to do in EQ1 to now here in EQ2, only old school monks will know what Shonuf is trying to get at and i fully understand where he is coming from. No one is relating this game too EQ1 <STRONG><U>game mechanically</U></STRONG> wise, what we are trying to point out is, SoE said this would be in no way a comparison to EQ1, well i hate to say it again, but what you monks ( and i do it also ), but what we as monks do here, is what Monks use to be able to do in EQ1, so much for no comparison. The comparisons are there, in more ways then one and not only for Monks, but for every other class that there is, there is comparisons, and if you had played EQ1 or are a old school player you would know what i mean, for the new people that play that have never looked at EQ1, i dont expect you to even remotely understand where im coming from.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The big smack in teh face for us monks here ( well those that use sheilds cause i personally dont use them ) is what is going to happen when they give us a innate sheild ability and they lose stats and ac, like i previously said, some monks are using shields with excess of 200ac + and stats to boot. Take that away for Extra DPS and a innate Deflection bonus and in some ways u have a nerf and in some ways u have a upgrade. Will be interesting in seeing how they go about implementing it and im very curious as to how there going to reimburse those monks who have relied on those stats / AC to help them tank, this is one reason i didnt get a sheild cause it was too good to be ture, and besides, we tank fine with out one, so for a monk like myself who doesnt use a sheild, its a bonus for me cause im not losing anything, im gaining a innate Deflection bonus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im happy :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR>"We are the two halves of the Flowing Circle, the light and the dark. If either grows too weak or too strong, the circle collapses on itself. Here, I will draw a Flowing Circle in the sand for you. Meditate upon the dual nature of our order and ourselves as you practice Kitten Swims Upstream. Perhaps, if you learn something from your meditations, Brother Tenshin will teach the kitten to become a tiger."</DIV> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>12-20-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:29 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>12-20-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:30 PM</span>

[Wintermoo]

<DIV>I agree with you Aonein that we are, in effect, returning to EQI pre-nerf monkdom.  I think that goes alone with what Gage said about SOE trying to get the old disenchanted players back, which is exactly what has happened with me.  I love our class as it is now, we rock.  I just hope they keep the ball rolling in the right direction.</DIV> <DIV>By the same token though, I don't think we should be disappointed with the things that <EM>are </EM>different.  We are going to play differently, and if you think the class is easier to play than it was in EQI, I think you are mistaken.  We might not have to come up with uber feign splitting tactics anymore, but we do get a TON more utilities now that we need to become adept at using correctly.</DIV> <DIV>Also, I do not miss instill-doubt kiting one little bit...it was good for its time.  The point now is that we don't <EM>need </EM>that to solo in EQII.  We can toe-to-toe solo all day long if you want to and I think it's great.  I have those days where I just don't feel like socializing and I wanna go kill something by myself and get good xp at the same time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>Im not dissapointed, i am to be honest very shocked that SoE would take this direction with monks here on EQ2 when it was the frist thing they destroyed on EQ1. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love the fact that we can tank here, something that i miss doing in EQ1, and as for instill doubt kiting......., thats all ill say. the way we have to play our monks here is probally just as challenging as it is to be a good monk on EQ1, the play styles and speed of the game here is much more exciting then EQ1 thats for sure. Fighting multiple mobs is so much fun i cannot express how much fun i have tanking them as a Monk, fighting one mob in EQ1 has grown old and too trivial, there is not much challenge and most things, 80% of things can be basically read like a book, even before opening it, and thats even in new unchartered content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do miss the days of EQ1 monks and those days are long gone, the monk community has gone, only a small group of them left, /bow to Greybourne, but, this is a brand new game, Monks are once again great, and talked about server wide cause of abilitys to do almost as good as those who are born to do it, and thats what gets people knickers in a knot, reminds me of the old days in EQ1 all over again :smileywink:, ahh the good ole days.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR>"We are the two halves of the Flowing Circle, the light and the dark. If either grows too weak or too strong, the circle collapses on itself. Here, I will draw a Flowing Circle in the sand for you. Meditate upon the dual nature of our order and ourselves as you practice Kitten Swims Upstream. Perhaps, if you learn something from your meditations, Brother Tenshin will teach the kitten to become a tiger."</DIV><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>12-20-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:57 PM</span>

[LothostheUnse]

<P> </P> <P>First off, monks ARE meant to be tanks.  In EQII monks are fighters and all fighters are tanks.  That is the purpose of the archetype system.  Second I've had no trouble tanking so far and while I'm not the highest around ask some of the higher level monks on this board who tank high end mobs very well.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grazel wrote:<BR> <DIV>Its not that we cant tank. We can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its that we require more alertness from the healer. That doesnt happen in a lot of groups. And since the healer thinks "I can heal that other tank just fine!!" it must be the monk's fault .. right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Feh.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That's only partly right.  Brawlers and monks require alert and very skilled CLERICS.  Becuase clerics have direct heals that work best with warriors, whose mitigation allows for constant dwindling HP so clerics can time heals.  Monks, Bruisers, and Brawlers tank magnificently with SHAMANS.  Wards absorb damage until they expire and grant the remainder as a heal.  Since monks dodge tons and then get hit very hard the Ward lasts longer and protects when its needed.  This makes monks mana efficient tanks for shamans to heal and with a good ward and a good shaman a monk can tank very, very well.</P> <P>With a good shaman and a decent group I've personally tanked groups of orange up arrowed mobs and some reds.</P> <P>I'm looking forward to later levels and trying to build up a list of shamans on my friend's list.<BR></P> <DIV> </DIV>

[Steamburn]

If you want to take this game literally, which is easy to do with fighter-classes simply because they all exist or have existed in some form in real life, then monks most certainly would make good tanks. Fighting monks, such as the Shaolin variety, train first and foremost to not get hit in combat. It would be incredibly difficult for even the best real-life bar-room fighter, soldier, etc. among us to hit a Shaolin monk if we were to meet one. Next, they train their bodies incessantly to absorb incredible amounts of punishment with little or no effect.If you told me you were going to put me in a room with another man, only one of us could leave, and I have my choice of a knight in full plate with a sword or a fighting monk, I would choose the knight, hands down. I wouldn't last a minute with a monk. I stand a good chance of not getting hit by the knight in his clunky armor. Monks' strong point would be against an opponent with little or no armor. They can inflict massive damage to a body. Their weak point would be against heavily armored opponents. A knight vs. monk scenario would most likely be a draw. The knight would never hit the monk, and the monk wouldn't really be able to penetrate the armor of the knight. He would probably just succeed in chain-stunning the knight.Obviously, as good as the combat model for EQ2 is, this isn't really represented. So let it suffice that we make good tanks within the existing system.

[Ector]

<DIV>Hi together,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>for myself it is clear: WE ARE TANKS. But which sort of tank? What is our purpose, our role, for which type ofencounter are we build and the best?. So i took a look at our skillset and found my answer:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P>22 - Hand Clap (Increases hate towards the monk and interrupts all enemies in an encounter)<BR>24 - Grappling Bear (A lower damage attack that interrupts the enemy)<BR>39 - Striking Cobra (A lower damage attack that interrupts the enemy</P> <P>37 - Quiet Purity (Increases the offense of the group and increases the mental resistance of the monk)</P> <P>50 - Agitate Spirit (Increase hate towards the monk and deals power damage to all enemies in an encounter)<BR>50 - Silent Fist (A high damage attack, it silences the target for a short time)</P> <P>Notice tha the lvl 50 Class defining abbility is a silence? We are the only class that can effectively interrupt, stun, and shut up a caster (and steal his power).</P> <P>As far as I know</P> <P>- damage done via spells isn´t lowererd through heavy armor but through resists.</P> <P>- you cant block a spell with a shield but you can evade the spell.</P> <P>- every hit can interrupt a spell.</P> <P>- caster mobs dont wear heavy armor so i dont need big numbers per hit.</P> <P>So If I want to create a fighter that is specialized in hunting and killing those pesty casters I would create a profession that is hitting fast like a snake ( we can, even when stunned), evading like a rabbit, and has the mind of a rock. For me that is the description of EQ2 Monks.</P> <P>So I for my part have found my role in groups. Everytime we wade into battle against casters I grip my trusty batons tighter and go into frenzy, whirling around like a lightning-ball (or Master Yoda in episode II).</P> <P>Please note that this is only my way of being a Monk. Everyone must find his/her own way to fight but i am very pleased that i can be DPS/off-Tank against heavy armored mobs and shine when there is a robed lower body part that I can hand back to the mob on a silver platter.</P> <P> </P> <P>Nejesha Casterbane (aka Magebane but naming filter didnt accept that)</P> <P>(Monk of the 20 th Season)</P> <P> </P> <P>P.S.: I repeat here my scribblings from another thread, but it got buried there and i think i can show a path with it here.</P></DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Jbex wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>In a full group, fighting the level of mobs a full group needs to fight for decent xp, a zerker will outtank a monk unless the zerker is wearing green armor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, the monk can tank. It's just that for good reliable xp you will want a monk, a shaman for the healer, and one scout for dps. This trio would then have to fight white, or preferably chain pull blue double up mobs. On low level mobs the avoidance will give the monk an edge, especially with a shaman. Wards do not benefit from armor class and take full damage per blow, therefore many shamen feel it is somewhat wasted on a heavy tank as it is more mana efficient to let him take the hit and heal after. A warded monk fighting low level mobs will get hit for the same damage per blow as a heavy tank (since its the ward absorbing the blow and the ac makes no difference), just less often and as a result needing less "healing".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In a full group even warded a monk pulling several tough mobs that fails a couple of parries in a row will get pummelled. Fast. That's where you want a heavy tank, with more hp, who will get hit more often but take less damage per hit, and a cleric with reactive heal for a primary healer as these two classes complement each other well. Too often with my coercer have I heard "we have a brawler we dont need another tank" going after orange/red mobs and left the group to get a tell an hour later that they wiped three times. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Overall assuming both setups choose their fights wisely, they can get xp just as reliably and at the same pace. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where is the problem?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good luck doing quests with the trio.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zerker FTW!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. </DIV> <DIV>An intresting thing to note is that since theoreticaly the monk would be warded most if not all the time the quality of his armor would not make a difference untill things got real ugly and the shaman could not keep up with wards. As long as he had a good weapon he could propably get away with fighting naked if he had to. This would make a monk-shaman duo quite viable as getting good armor fast would not be much of a concern and they could complete quests at later levels than the general population.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=1896&page=2" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=1896&page=2</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every bit of that is so ture, and again the ironic thing is, Monks + Shammy's in EQ1 were a perfect team, and Tanks + Clerics were a perfect team, now in EQ2 its the same again, Monks + Shammy's making a good team and Tanks + Clerics making a good team, again, not saying we cant tank, but just showing you that the comparison is there when we were told it wasnt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What i am dissapointed about is the comparison in certain things that is starting to show between the two games, again, for those who havent played EQ1 i dont expect u to understand what im talking about here. I expected game script and storyline and continent's to fall into comparison, didnt think id see the old Monk + Shammy combo shining out like it is again though. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dejavu at its best.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR>"We are the two halves of the Flowing Circle, the light and the dark. If either grows too weak or too strong, the circle collapses on itself. Here, I will draw a Flowing Circle in the sand for you. Meditate upon the dual nature of our order and ourselves as you practice Kitten Swims Upstream. Perhaps, if you learn something from your meditations, Brother Tenshin will teach the kitten to become a tiger."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[netswine]

<DIV>I think that assuming that we can tank as well as the specialized fighters is a fundamental flaw. We all can tank, that is the premise. But, we all can NOT tank the same. It is impossible because of something called balance. Now if we all could tank as good, then put yourself in the shoes of the other fighter classes. Why would you chose any other fighter flavor except monk/bruiser? We can tank as good as a guardian/berserker, but deal the damage that they can not. How is this balanced? I am not talking about situational tanking, I am talking about tanking the run of the mill mobs of everyday grinding. Monks, would become the flavor of the day, to their detriment, and promptly get nerfed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE has consistently stated that all fighters are tanks, but they have never said, to my knowledge, that all fighters can tank equally. We are almost 50/50 tank/dps, and that is the way it should be.  If we ever can tank as good as a the warriors, then I agree that we should get nerfed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>WE ARE TANK/DPS so get over it.   </DIV>

[asteldian]

<DIV>All tank differently, all have strengths all have weaknesses.  As for other tanks trying to nerf you...well, i read the zerker pally and guardian boards and havent noticed that much...although i try avoid whiners like the plague, there have been plenty of arguements of 'monks cant tank' and 'monk tanks better than us!' threads dotted around, but the very fact you have 2 very different threads in the same board shows you things are more balanced than you think.  Guardians whinge and cry about every tank class so i really wouldnt worry to much about them complaining about in built shield or anything else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like i said earlier, find your strengths and use them and compensate for your weaknesses-bad mitigation? So try team with shammy as much as possible.  Reds and oranges hitting too much and too hard?  Fight lower cons and slaughter through them with ease and no downtime.</DIV>

[Musashi-]

Yes, the reason I started this post is because of how Monks in EQ1 were treated. I have played a monk for over 10 years in MMORPG's Starting with Martial Artist in Legends of Kesmai to one of the first Monks created in EQ1. I Love this Version of a Monk, I love the fact WE CAN TANK. I just hope the crying from the "warriors" dont get our ability to tank so scaled back that we arent a viable option as MT and are reduced to "DPS MONK LFG"

[xrippe]

<DIV>It is well known at this point that tanks are all equal but not at the same time.  Gaurdians can tank better there is no doubt, that is because they are meant to be damage takers.. we as monks are made to be damage dealers.  We are both fighters but on different ends of its spectrum.  If we could defend as well as gaurdians and still dish damage we would be over powered.  Just as a gaurdian doing monk damage would be overpowered.  It is the give and take. If you want to tank well be a gaurdian.. if you want to do great damage as a fighter be a monk, you cant have it all.  </DIV>

[RadricTyc]

<DIV>Not to steer this conversation too far off topic or anything, but I was wondering about shields and the affect they have on combat.  It seems to me that when I use a shield I get lots of blocks, while when I dual wield or 2-h wield I get parries.  So it would seem that shields don't just help mitigation, they help avoidance.  By adding in this "virtual shield" are we going to get more blocks?  Also is it going to add to our mitigation?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the answer to these questions is yes and yes, this shield thing is going to be a dramatic improvement for monks.  Another question is: Does AGI have any affect on blocking?  I know it helps parrying but I am not sure about block.</DIV>

[LothostheUnse]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xripperx wrote:<BR> <DIV>It is well known at this point that tanks are all equal but not at the same time.  Gaurdians can tank better there is no doubt, that is because they are meant to be damage takers.. we as monks are made to be damage dealers.  We are both fighters but on different ends of its spectrum.  If we could defend as well as gaurdians and still dish damage we would be over powered.  Just as a gaurdian doing monk damage would be overpowered.  It is the give and take. If you want to tank well be a gaurdian.. if you want to do great damage as a fighter be a monk, you cant have it all.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>I'm not really sure about that.  Guardians have higher HP and the best mitigation so they're great at slowly absorbing damage over time and can deal well with riposting mobs and high weapon attack mobs.  They have to taunt much more b/c they don't do enough damage to hold as much aggro.  A zerker can wear vanguard and holds aggro better due to better damage but I've heard they have drawbacks against certain mobs.</P> <P>All warriors have problems with casters and armor ignoring attacks b/c that is their only defense.  Against these mobs brawler avoidance coupled with a shaman ward is amazing and can really make a difference (as another poster pointed out this is especially true with all our interrupting abilities).</P> <P>Crusaders seem sort of a middle approach.  While brawlers draw aggro with damage as much as with taunt, crusaders get wards and some heal aggro as well as taunt and can help themselves a bit when a healer is finding it hard to heal them.</P> <P>There are pros, cons, and situational advantages.  From what I've heard from higher players in and out of my guild these generalities continue.</P> <P>However, I'll take a smart player with good tactics over a certain class anytime.  There are many tools in this game but its up to us to put the grey matter between our ears to work and find a way to get things done.</P> <P>Monks can tank fine.  Gage has done so and, though I'm much lower level than he, I have too and have enjoyed it.</P>

[xrippe]

<DIV>Valid statement.  But I leads to a good question.  If a monk can tank as well as a gaurdian, what would be the point of playing a gaurdian?  I think in the end it comes down the class description.  Gaurdians are defensive, monks are offensive.  Although equipment and technique have a lot to do with the success of any tank i beleive SOE will try to stick to the class descriptions and make sure gaurdians are the "best" group tanks.  </DIV>

[LothostheUnse]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xripperx wrote:<BR> <DIV>Valid statement.  But I leads to a good question.  If a monk can tank as well as a gaurdian, what would be the point of playing a gaurdian?  I think in the end it comes down the class description.  Gaurdians are defensive, monks are offensive.  Although equipment and technique have a lot to do with the success of any tank i beleive SOE will try to stick to the class descriptions and make sure gaurdians are the "best" group tanks.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Yeah I see what you're saying here.  Its valid to ask why play a guardian.  The answer is that, as I tried to articulate in my last post, different tanks are better versus different types of mobs.  So depending on where you're raiding or XPing a guardian might be better than a brawler or vice versa.</P> <P>And again the offense-defense, I think plays a role in that type of situational utility.  I admit, though that I have yet to see the situations where the crusaders flourish.  I'm sure there are some but I haven't personally encountered them yet.</P>

[xrippe]

<DIV>lol cant beleive i got one starred for this post.  So much for personal oppinions</DIV>

[LothostheUnse]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xripperx wrote:<BR> <DIV>lol cant beleive i got one starred for this post.  So much for personal oppinions</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Me either.  But I gave you a higher rating to offset.  Don't worry too much though.  Faar said a while back that ratings don't figure into your forum title, so its easy enough to ignore.

[RadricTyc]

<DIV>The only thing a monk has (in terms of fighting/tanking) over a Guardian is choice.  A Guardian is pretty much a tank through and through, while a monk has the option to be a good damage dealer, a good tank, or moderately good at either.  However a monk is not a great DD while tanking, nor is he a great tank while dealing damage.  The monk has to choose which stance to take.  I like this because it defines monks very well, it makes a monk more adaptable to a group.  In fact it sort of reminds me a bit of a Bruce Lee quote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0099ff>"<FONT size=3>Be formless and shapeless like water.  </FONT>Now you put water into a cup, it becomes the cup You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle. You put water into a teapot, and it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash! Be water, my friend. "</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0099ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Be water my fellow monks. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> netswine wrote:<BR> <DIV>I think that assuming that we can tank as well as the specialized fighters is a fundamental flaw. We all can tank, that is the premise. But, we all can NOT tank the same. It is impossible because of something called balance. Now if we all could tank as good, then put yourself in the shoes of the other fighter classes. Why would you chose any other fighter flavor except monk/bruiser? We can tank as good as a guardian/berserker, but deal the damage that they can not. How is this balanced?<FONT color=#ffff00> I am not talking about situational tanking, I am talking about tanking the run of the mill mobs of everyday grinding. Monks, would become the flavor of the day, to their detriment, and promptly get nerfed. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE has consistently stated that all fighters are tanks, but they have never said, to my knowledge, that all fighters can tank equally. We are almost 50/50 tank/dps, and that is the way it should be.  If we ever can tank as good as a the warriors, then I agree that we should get nerfed. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>WE ARE TANK/DPS so get over it.   </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I do that almost everyday.  I MT for many groups now that my static group has broken up.  I tanked a 51++ named eye last night in CT at 42.  I tank group mobs, I tank named mobs, I just <EM>tank.</EM></P> <P>What you guys are misunderstanding about the whole archtype system is you think that it isn't supposed to let each fighter tank the same, when it IS.</P> <P>The balance is given by letting each archtype fill the same fundamental role BUT giving the players variety and the option to choose which class they want to play from that archtype because they each fill that role in different ways.</P> <P>Variety and balance is how this game was built.</P> <P>YOU are wrong in saying that guardians or zerkers are designed to be better tanks and we are designed to be tanks dps, that is incorrect.</P> <P>Lets take everyone's favorite arguement: Well monks have more dps than Guardians, so obviously we are DPS and Guardians are meant to be tanks. </P> <P>WRONG.</P> <P>Let me tell you why: as I've said numerous times all the archtypes are basically the same BUT the subclasses let you choose a class to fit your playstyle.</P> <P>As a monk when I'm MT I will do more dps than a guardian for a reason:  because of the way I tank.  I'm a monk with less HP and I use avoidance tanking, meaning that the fight needs to end a bit quicker, leading to me being able to do more damage as I tank.</P> <P>As a guardian MT they have tons of AC/HP and mitigation, they can stand in there and take damage for a substantial amount of time while their group doles out the majority of the damage.</P> <P>But both classes are tanking efficiently and effectively, just DIFFERENT.</P> <P>Which is how this game is supposed to work.  That is why monks can do more dps than guardians, and the game stays balanced.  Because although we are both playing tanks, we are doing it differenty.  Because not all tanks want to be monks, and not all tanks want to be guardians.</P> <P>The beauty of choice and balance.<BR></P>

[Velor]

<DIV>It's a long process trying to get people to understand that at the end of the night, they will more than likely have achieved essentially the same XP with me as a tank as they would have with a Warrior type, assuming it works within the current group dynamic. I've been in that situation so I know that for the most part, it does hold true. I just wish the rest of the playerbase would eventually realize the same thing. Long process indeed, but I try to remain optimistic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Part of the junk I hear is that we require more work to be a good tank. While some may feel that they need to mash more buttons when a Monk is tanking and "work" harder, I don't subscribe to this for the following reason: it's what many former EQ1 players asked for to begin with.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ1, melees complained that all they did was hit auto-attack and go watch TV. /wave Luclin bosses</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ1, people complained that there was no skill used during combat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So Sony addresses these issues with a more robust combat system that actually requires some thought...and people complain that they want what EQ1 had again??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good grief.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: You have become better at spell-checking (2)! :smileyvery-happy:</DIV><p>Message Edited by Velorek on <span class=date_text>12-20-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:12 PM</span>

[Wintermoo]

<DIV> <DIV>Way to go, you've gone and made Gage have to repeat himself for the umpteenth time...:smileyindifferent:</DIV> <DIV>Some mod needs to sticky one of the many posts to the top and title it "Monks can tank <U>equally </U>with the plate classes, and here is why:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe that would keep the misinformation to a minimum and help the community progress as a whole.</DIV></DIV>

[LothostheUnse]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <P>I do that almost everyday.  I MT for many groups now that my static group has broken up.  I tanked a 51++ named eye last night in CT at 42.  I tank group mobs, I tank named mobs, I just <EM>tank.</EM></P> <P>*snip excellent post*</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Very well put gage.  I've been trying to articulate this exact point in other posts and in-game.  Thank you for making it clear and simple.  <BR></P>

[netswine]

<DIV>I still disagree with Gage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still think letting us tank as good as the other fighters is not balanced at all. SOE has not stated that we can tank equally, but has stated that all fighters can tank (correct me if I'm wrong on this). Having certain fighters be better tanks, while we do more damage, seems to me the balance factor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please, this is not a flame or a troll. I am just stating my opinion, which I based on my observations. I respect Gage and all he has done as a pioneer for all us monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: spelling</DIV><p>Message Edited by netswine on <span class=date_text>12-20-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:48 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> netswine wrote:<BR> <DIV>I still disagree with Gage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still think letting us tank as good as the other fighters is not balanced at all. SOE has not stated that we can tank equally, but has stated that all fighters can tank (correct me if I'm wrong on this). Having certain fighters be better tanks, while we do more damage, seems to me the balance factor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please, this is not a flame or a troll. I am just stating my opinion, which I based on my observations. I respect Gage and all he has done as a pioneer for all us monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: spelling</DIV> <P>Message Edited by netswine on <SPAN class=date_text>12-20-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:48 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Its your perrogative to disagree, and that's fine.  I'm just saying that my experience up to this point (almost 43) as shown me.<BR>

[Graz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LothostheUnseen wrote:<BR> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grazel wrote:<BR> <DIV>Its not that we cant tank. We can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its that we require more alertness from the healer. That doesnt happen in a lot of groups. And since the healer thinks "I can heal that other tank just fine!!" it must be the monk's fault .. right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Feh.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That's only partly right.  Brawlers and monks require alert and very skilled CLERICS.  Becuase clerics have direct heals that work best with warriors, whose mitigation allows for constant dwindling HP so clerics can time heals.  Monks, Bruisers, and Brawlers tank magnificently with SHAMANS.  <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm aware of how wards work <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I disagree that slacker shamans will handle healing a monk any better than slacker clerics.</P> <P>If the shaman is repeatedly slow on ward, you're gonna get pwned eventually. You be right back in the same situation as you had with the cleric ... except now the instant heals are less effective, and the option to burn mana to try and catfch up isn't there.</P> <P>Sure a GOOD shaman works fine with a monk, but a slacker shaman is just as bad if not worse than a cleric. And the slackers are way more common.</P>

[Wintermoo]

<DIV>well any tank class is in the crapper if the healer is slacking, so that's not a monkey issue...that's a mo-[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] healer issue :smileywink:</DIV>

[Inv]

<DIV>Well after 16 times of being told we want a real tank today I still think we could use alittle more on tanking part.  I see gprs with one healer and a plate tank and they are fine monk have to have 2 most of the time. Just how it works that I have seen. Wouldn't mindit so much if had longer lasthing maybe slightly weaker tanking buffs.  roomate plays a plate tank he sits back tuants does what not I cycle skills like mad and get to be a pain when hes taking beatings easily.  You can rant me flame me say I am not some uber level monk blah blah just saying in my perception right now we could use a bit more. I enjoy my monk well except being ignored in grps.  hopefully new shields work better we can only hope. keep on plugging along watching plates get grps over me.   Let the small minded flaming begin <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  But have fun besafe!</DIV>

[Crest]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> shonuf wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> shonuf wrote:<BR> <DIV>we are not meant to be tanks <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>No no, I just think you aren't meant to be a monk.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>i was a monk before most my friend..and just not afraid of posting the failures that i have noticed thus far. most that have played EQ1 from kunark on will know what i am saying..the monk feel is not there, w/out playing from the beginning i doubt you know what i am talking about..i enjoy your posts and i guess i must have got under your skin somehow, and if i did i apologize, i just had high expectations of this class and so far they have not lived up to my expectations. i still play hoping that w/expansions and patches they might implement a better system than we have now. monks before PoP in EQ1 were pullers..FD pulling this is not the case in EQ2, we now have to stand still to mend. no more instill doubt soloing kiting. just the old school monks know what i am talking about. EQ2 is good but w/our class they have dropped the ball. and did you play a monk in EQ1? if you did my friend i would have thought you might share some of my sentiments, you seem to be a avid player and very knowledgealbe thus far, but most that i have seen we are just candy coated EQ1 monks..no real skill needs to be used playing these monks. please flame if you must, but my opinion stands with Experience.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> <P>This is not EQ1. I read the devs say the worst design decision they made in this game was to call it EQ2 because so many people brought their pre-conceived notions from that game into this one. Play this game for what it brings to the table, not what you think it does based on any other game you have ever played.</P></DIV>

[Velor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV> <P>This is not EQ1. I read the devs say the worst design decision they made in this game was to call it EQ2 because so many people brought their pre-conceived notions from that game into this one. Play this game for what it brings to the table, not what you think it does based on any other game you have ever played.</P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Amen!</DIV>

[Kwonryu_DragonFi]

<DIV>Indeed, EQ2 is a different game! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What a specific class was able to do in EQL may/may not work in EQ2! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We try, adapt and see. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Different vision here for some classes! </DIV>

[LothostheUnse]

<DIV>I think its good that many of us have had different experiences.  It shows that monks can tank but doing so requires more skill and thought.  Plus because we have avoidance its always a bit of a gamble.  We equal out over time but its true that we may take a lot more damage one fight and a lot less another, whereas a plate class will take steady, predictable damage every fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its also true that if the healer slacks the tank is in trouble, but I would argue that if anyone in the group slacks the group does worse.  Whats wonderful about this game is that it requires judgment calls and strategies, which involve skill, experience, and good sense.  This allows players to get better over time (hopefully) and shared debt puts a premium on who you group with if that matters to you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So far I haven't had trouble finding groups willing to let me tank and so far I've tanked fine.  I've died some but I've saved group members many times, including plate classes.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the EQ2 environment its not about single pulling and dpsing a mob to death while one char stands in front and takes all the hits.  Here its about juggling multiple mobs, handling aggro, making the mob dance sometimes, and making judgment calls about quick kills via dps or more taunts while letting others dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks are a more flexible tank in that they use the dps to help hold aggro and to end things a bit quicker b/c of the risks of avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In any case, we can agree to disagree about this but I think its pretty balanced.  Tanking as a monk provides potentially greater benefit for taking greater risk.  That is part of the balance.  The plate classes are safer and more predictable.  But one player complaint from EQlive was that sitting there taking hits as a plate class with autoattack was boring.  So plate classes do more now and other fighters are more complex as well.</DIV>

[Aetheris]

<DIV>Greetings again. As of today I am now level 43, and I can once again say that as time goes on you will only become a better tank. At my current level I am tanking level 49 ^^'s in Permafrost with a group of only 5. If you are still a disbeliever or having problems, re-read my post at the beginning of this topic thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a side note, if anyone has any questions, feel free to ask. I may take a day to respond, but I'll get around to it sooner or later.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enjoy everyone,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Aetheris</DIV> <DIV>43rd Seasoned Monk</DIV> <DIV>CrushBone</DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>Yup, I'm 43 almost 44 and I agree it gets better everyday.</DIV>

[GangsterFi]

I'll have to say that the level 40+ game for monks is good. From 30 to 40 there were equality problems with plate tanks and monks. At levle 40+ I find it lots easier to tank. Of course having fbss and master skills also helps. Along with good armor and weapons. So, really if you can outfit your monk with good stuff, you can out tank plate tanks. The problem is, if the plate tank has really good stuff too, then it all depends on situation. However, I have yet to see what high level raid stuff has to offer. I'm level 42 and currently playing around mostly in Cazic Thule. The main problem is, you gotta have a good healer too. Monk's HP will spike and sometimes healers panic and don't heal properly. I was not too happy with my monk compared to others in the level 30 to 40 game. In the level 40 game I like them a lot better. So, stick it out, it is kinda tough in the mid range levels but it pays off nicely in the end.

[Musashi-]

I come back after 3 weeks of absence and guess WHAT.... Monks can not tank as good as Guardians.. I hated to be right!!!

[Kwonryu_DragonFi]

Worked well until Big Patch 2.

[Rori]

<blockquote><hr>Mamaseeta wrote:It is amazing that all these people say monks cannot tank however they provied no actual proof of this.Why is that?SOE says we are a tank just like any other fighter class, its up to you to prove them wrong!<hr></blockquote>Simple, complaining about a nerf gives them something to complain about. Some people just enjoy doing that sorta thing as these forums prove time and time again. The agility "nerf" is a prime example. It really just balanced us out, as AGI was more important than AC/HP at higher lvls, which it SHOULD NOT be. Now Moorgard has stated in an interview on The Brawlers Pit that deflection IS bugged. Thats why at lvl 20 deflection is 139/100. Seems to me that they adjusted AGI to where its supposed to be, but deflection still isn't quite there. They'll adjust it sooner or later. As for me, I'm a 28 monk, haven't had any real difficulties, my healer still uses the same amount of power to keep me alive and I use slightly more power to strategically buff myself etc etc. I know a couple 35+ monks that say the same things. Either way, agility adjusting or not, I enjoy my monk immensely, and will keep playing / tanking with her regardless of what anyone says. She's been a tank since lvl 1, and will remain so.