Please Help ! What are we ? Tank ? DPS ?

[Nerill]

<DIV>I was in the Thundering Steppes trying to get in a group. When I responded to groups seeking a tank, I was told that I am not a Tank. Now I know that we are <STRONG>supposed</STRONG> to be tanks in EQ2 and that many former players from EQ1 have pre-conceived notions that Monks are not Tanks becase we weren't tanks in EQ1. I also know that we can not Tank worth a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] right now and most people seem to notice that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I started resoponding to groups seeking DPS and was told that Scouts and Wizards are DPS ... not Monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So the whole zone had this discussion about Monks in EQ2. We debated if Monks were DPS, Tanks, something else ...etc. For the most part ... NO ONE knew what the heck we were !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I ask the Monk community .... what are we ?!?!?!?!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When groups are seeking "DPS" or a "Tank" or whatever .... where do I fit in ? :smileysad:</DIV>

[Mamasee]

One you get your self a reputation as a tank people will seek you out. There is a lot of misconception out there.Monks role is taking dammage and holding aggro, like all other fighter classes.

[Ala]

<DIV>I think they made a change to Monks (today!) that will improve our tanking ability to be par with other fighter classes.  Somehting to do with shields.  I would get you a link but I'm at work and need to go like 5 minutes ago... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  It shoudl be easy to find.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Velor]

<DIV>The biggest problem with this is educating other classes to know the difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A Monk can be every bit as effective at tanking as any other fighter class. Enough high level Monks have shown this to be true. The two biggest points to remember though are 1) certain tanks match up better with certain healers, and 2) at certain small level ranges, some classes are a tad better than others due to class bonuses, certain combat arts, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the group's primary healer is a Cleric class (i.e., a Templar or Inquisitor), then you will better serve the group in a DPS role as opposed to that of a tank. Clerics primarily use reactive heals for healing, which heals a certain amount of health every time the tank gets hit. In this case, the group will want to use a tank that can maximize mitigation to make each one of those heals more effective. That's why you see so many Clerics rave about how great Guardians or Berserkers are at tanking and how Monks aren't. It's simply because Clerics and Warriors are matched the best for each other.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the other hand, Shaman classes such as Mystics and Defilers typically use ward healing to do their job. In this case, a Monk is better suited for tanking over a plate class since their avoidance makes the wards last longer. In this respect, Brawlers and Shaman are best suited for each other.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gone are the days of EQ1 where a Warrior was the best tank and a Cleric was the best healer for every single situation out there. In this game, if people are looking for optimal XP gains and success, they need to learn to look towards the classes that best complement their own skills. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for DPS, it's true that Monks aren't quite as high as Wizards and Scouts. But to that, remember that once a Wizard is OOP, they no longer offer anything to the group while a Monk in the same situation can still inflict damage via melee. As for the Scout? Well, if the primary tank should ever fall, no one is ever going to look to them to step up and tank in a pinch to save the group. A Monk, however, can. </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Velorek on <SPAN class=date_text>12-15-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:28 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Velorek on <span class=date_text>12-15-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:30 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<DIV>We are tanks first, DPS second.</DIV>

[Ala]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV>If the group's primary healer is a Cleric class (i.e., a Templar or Inquisitor), then you will better serve the group in a DPS role as opposed to that of a tank. Clerics primarily use reactive heals for healing, which heals a certain amount of health every time the tank gets hit. In this case, the group will want to use a tank that can maximize mitigation to make each one of those heals more effective. That's why you see so many Clerics rave about how great Guardians or Berserkers are at tanking and how Monks aren't. It's simply because Clerics and Warriors are matched the best for each other.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the other hand, Shaman classes such as Mystics and Defilers typically use ward healing to do their job. In this case, a Monk is better suited for tanking over a plate class since their avoidance makes the wards last longer. In this respect, Brawlers and Shaman are best suited for each other.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This is one of the most useful pieces of info I've obtained in the Monk forum.  Thanks! <BR>

[Sri]

<DIV>I tank only when I am with my good healin' friends otherwise, I'm DPS with benefits.  Even if I can't hit as hard as a scout or a mage, I still have more abilities that help the group in a tight situation because of taunt, self buffs, mitigations, and of course feign death.  It's not worth the effort arguing what it is that a monk is supposed to do, since most people don't even comprehend what it is that we CAN do.   :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Cora]

<DIV>We are comedy relief.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also I tank when I aggro off MT with just DPS and aggro debuff on myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will never use a shield, unless it is also a weapon, looks like a weapon, and fires gleaming diamond unicorns that fart rainbows.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Coraz2 on <span class=date_text>12-15-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:18 PM</span>

[sirtra]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Coraz2 wrote:<BR> <DIV>We are comedy relief.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also I tank when I aggro off MT with just DPS and aggro debuff on myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will never use a shield, unless it is also a weapon, looks like a weapon, and fires gleaming diamond unicorns that fart rainbows.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Coraz2 on <SPAN class=date_text>12-15-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:18 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>What he said :smileyhappy:</P><p>Message Edited by sirtrash on <span class=date_text>12-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:51 AM</span>

[netswine]

<DIV>In danger of becoming the brunt of flames, I think that people that think that monks make as good tank as any other fighter is unfortunately incorrect. I have seen this posted before, but I will post it again. From the class guide:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>A brawler makes a decent main tank, but suffers somewhat from his poor damage mitigation ability. A brawler makes a very good secondary tank, however, using combat arts like Defend to improve the tanking ability of the main tank, and at the same time delivering excellent damage.</FONT><STRONG><BR></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of the arguments that I have heard, that monks are good against certain mobs, is irrelevant.  We can tank, but we are NOT the optimal main tank, we are not designed to do so. And this is fact. We are designed to be able to tank, but to the detriment of our tanking ability, we were desinged to dish it out in dps. It is balanced, and I like it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem is the perception from the other classes in pick-up groups.  While they think that we can not tank at all, we will find it hard to fill that niche in agroup that wants a tank. But people need to understand that this game was designed to not be a single mob oriented game. Groups are more optimal when they have more than one tank, and we should be able to fill the roll of a secondary tank amazingly well if the group wants dps as well (most do).</DIV>

[Zadkiel3]

<DIV>I'm a good tank, but I am having a lot of trouble educating people to believe it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm getting there though, slowly, 1 group at a time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zadkiel.</DIV>

[Velor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> netswine wrote:<BR> <DIV>In danger of becoming the brunt of flames, I think that people that think that monks make as good tank as any other fighter is unfortunately incorrect. I have seen this posted before, but I will post it again. From the class guide:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>A brawler makes a decent main tank, but suffers somewhat from his poor damage mitigation ability. A brawler makes a very good secondary tank, however, using combat arts like Defend to improve the tanking ability of the main tank, and at the same time delivering excellent damage.</FONT><STRONG><BR></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of the arguments that I have heard, that monks are good against certain mobs, is irrelevant.  We can tank, but we are NOT the optimal main tank, we are not designed to do so. And this is fact. We are designed to be able to tank, but to the detriment of our tanking ability, we were desinged to dish it out in dps. It is balanced, and I like it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem is the perception from the other classes in pick-up groups.  While they think that we can not tank at all, we will find it hard to fill that niche in agroup that wants a tank. But people need to understand that this game was designed to not be a single mob oriented game. Groups are more optimal when they have more than one tank, and we should be able to fill the roll of a secondary tank amazingly well if the group wants dps as well (most do).</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Actually, there is some merit to being better tanks against certain mobs. Fight a group of caster mobs and you'll quickly see that you need as much DPS as your group can pump out to put them down before they AE nuke you to death. A Monk is a much better fit for this than a Warrior or Knight class because of the added DPS we bring. </P> <P>Admittedly, this is more of a niche situation but it certainly isn't irrelevant.</P> <P>As stated above, it's our jobs to educate other classes on what we offer. At level 30, I am almost always recruited as a DPSer but the people who I have grouped with a few times before have become more and more knowledgeable about the other benefits I bring to the table and tanking is certainly one them.</P> <P>It all comes down to this: everyone is looking for the answer to the question, "What's the optimal group for the game?". In EQ1, this was much easier to answer. In EQ2, however, there really isn't an answer to it. In fact, it's the question that's changed and it should be "What's the optimal setup for <EM><STRONG>my group</STRONG></EM>?". Sadly, educating players to migrate from the first question to the next is slow and frustrating.</P><p>Message Edited by Velorek on <span class=date_text>12-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:22 AM</span>

[Xanrn]

<DIV>I was in a group last night, Druid promtly asked if we had a Tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I said yes I am a Monk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He said can we get a Real Tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have problems tanking mobs higher than us, because the Mobs offence skills are higher than our defence skills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also sometime I can tank and sometimes I require a complete heal within 4 blows of starting a fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monk tanking is to much about luck on the RNG.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We need what EQ 1 Monks and D&D Monks have, an AC Bonus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tanks need to be able to take blows, not dodge/block/parry them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we try and tank group encounters (I mean groups of Mobs) we get owned because the mobs get onto our Sides and Back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fight yellow/orange/red group mobs, watch a Plate Tank and then try and tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yellows yes we can, but not aswell as a Plate Tank. Orange/Red hit you most of the time and therefore you require constant healing and replying wards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cause we don't get picked over Plates, healer have to expand less mana healing them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Less Mana spent = less downtime = faster pulls = more exp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It was the same in EQ 1, the constant switching bewteen Warriors and Knights whenever Sony fiddled with them. All that mattered is which one was a better peformance Tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monk tanking is just far to random to be acceptal to Exp junkies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes we can tank with our buffs on, but staggering stance doesn't last a long fight. Karamic/Martial Focus last about 30-40 seconds and Face of the Mountain 15!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brawlers stance is the only decent one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Really want is the point of FoM? someone answer me that. Its recast time is to long, I can barely get it off twice a fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Karmic focus doesn't even last me a lvl 27 solo fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have you seen the Shaolin stage performance? They whack each other with Wooden Planks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If that isn't mitagation I don't know what is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We should be thoose of the Iron Body, not thoose of the squishy Body.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We should be Medium Armour through a combo of our Light Armour and our highly trained bodies. Then with our better block/parry/deflection skills to bridge the gap to Plate Tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I got less AC than Scouts and Priests lower than me, I mean I not even past 1000 ac yet at lvl 27.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am wearing all AQ except gloves where I have higher AC ones and they yellow so more AC to come next level. Full set of Pristine Gold/Agate jewelry except neck and I have a very nice neck piece to wear at lvl 28.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean MAGES come close to my AC, MAGES!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am an old school EQ 1 Tank, Warrior I know AC and I feel bloody naked tanking with upwards of 200 less than Scouts and Priests.</DIV>

[GangsterFi]

Are monks tanks?sometimesAre monks DPS?SometimesIt depends on your group make up and player skill. Sometimes I main tank as a monk, and other times I gladly step down and just DPS. It all depends on the situation.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> netswine wrote:<BR> <DIV>In danger of becoming the brunt of flames, I think that people that think that monks make as good tank as any other fighter is unfortunately incorrect. I have seen this posted before, but I will post it again. From the class guide:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>A brawler makes a decent main tank, but suffers somewhat from his poor damage mitigation ability. A brawler makes a very good secondary tank, however, using combat arts like Defend to improve the tanking ability of the main tank, and at the same time delivering excellent damage.</FONT><STRONG><BR></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One of the arguments that I have heard, that monks are good against certain mobs, is irrelevant.  We can tank, but we are NOT the optimal main tank, we are not designed to do so. And this is fact. We are designed to be able to tank, but to the detriment of our tanking ability, we were desinged to dish it out in dps. It is balanced, and I like it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem is the perception from the other classes in pick-up groups.  While they think that we can not tank at all, we will find it hard to fill that niche in agroup that wants a tank. But people need to understand that this game was designed to not be a single mob oriented game. Groups are more optimal when they have more than one tank, and we should be able to fill the roll of a secondary tank amazingly well if the group wants dps as well (most do).</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Read your quote, we are monks not brawlers.</DIV>

[Gnalt]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xanrn wrote:<BR> <DIV>I was in a group last night, Druid promtly asked if we had a Tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I said yes I am a Monk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He said can we get a Real Tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have problems tanking mobs higher than us, because the Mobs offence skills are higher than our defence skills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also sometime I can tank and sometimes I require a complete heal within 4 blows of starting a fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monk tanking is to much about luck on the RNG.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We need what EQ 1 Monks and D&D Monks have, an AC Bonus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tanks need to be able to take blows, not dodge/block/parry them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we try and tank group encounters (I mean groups of Mobs) we get owned because the mobs get onto our Sides and Back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fight yellow/orange/red group mobs, watch a Plate Tank and then try and tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yellows yes we can, but not aswell as a Plate Tank. Orange/Red hit you most of the time and therefore you require constant healing and replying wards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cause we don't get picked over Plates, healer have to expand less mana healing them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Less Mana spent = less downtime = faster pulls = more exp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It was the same in EQ 1, the constant switching bewteen Warriors and Knights whenever Sony fiddled with them. All that mattered is which one was a better peformance Tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monk tanking is just far to random to be acceptal to Exp junkies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes we can tank with our buffs on, but staggering stance doesn't last a long fight. Karamic/Martial Focus last about 30-40 seconds and Face of the Mountain 15!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brawlers stance is the only decent one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Really want is the point of FoM? someone answer me that. Its recast time is to long, I can barely get it off twice a fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Karmic focus doesn't even last me a lvl 27 solo fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have you seen the Shaolin stage performance? They whack each other with Wooden Planks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If that isn't mitagation I don't know what is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We should be thoose of the Iron Body, not thoose of the squishy Body.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We should be Medium Armour through a combo of our Light Armour and our highly trained bodies. Then with our better block/parry/deflection skills to bridge the gap to Plate Tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I got less AC than Scouts and Priests lower than me, I mean I not even past 1000 ac yet at lvl 27.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am wearing all AQ except gloves where I have higher AC ones and they yellow so more AC to come next level. Full set of Pristine Gold/Agate jewelry except neck and I have a very nice neck piece to wear at lvl 28.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean MAGES come close to my AC, MAGES!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am an old school EQ 1 Tank, Warrior I know AC and I feel bloody naked tanking with upwards of 200 less than Scouts and Priests.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I disagree with several of your points here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks are not tanks.  Nor are they supposed to be.  We do not wear heavy armor and are not capable of mitigating massive damage.  We avoid the damage in the first place...a system that became impossible to implement in EQ1 simply because the fighting engine didn't allow the devs enough flexiblity to properly balance the idea.  The last thing I want to see, is the devs give up on avoidance and give the monks an AC bonus, which just turns them into the psudo-tanks they were in eqlive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Low AC doesn't mean we're unable to effectively play MT in a group.  I truely consider myself a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] good MT, not just acceptable.  Its all in how your play the class.  Don't let the ignorant noob populace sway you into thinking monks aren't "real" tanks....hell...if the groups primary healer is a shaman, monks should be chosen over any plate wearer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>True, our deflection buff doesnt cover our [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]...we are vunerable there.  So what?  It's rediciously easy to simply 'back up' and put all hostiles on your front end.  Show some creativity, experiment a little will ya ;P</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>True, some fights, luck wont be with you and you'll take more damage than a Guardian might.  The next fight I might get hit for a total of 150 dmg or absolutely zero...off a yellow ++ golem in permafrost.  Rolling the dice or gambling isn't a bad way to put it, but you have to remember that as a monk, you're the house not the player (we have 'less' armor, not cloth armor).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as your arts go, you need to upgrade.  Yes, apprentice I face of the mountain lasts 15 seconds...which does suck.  Adept 1 last 60 seconds...much better no?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't remember what the timer was on adept3 karmic focus, but adept1 Control breathing lasts about 50 seconds, so you're only without it for 20-25 seconds before u can recast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mages dont come close to my AC  /shrug</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Want to know whats a lot of fun?  Adept 3 Stone stance =)</DIV> <DIV>I was able to self buff myself over 4k AC yesterday for 45 seconds with SS+ FotM.  True, i cant move or do anything.  But there's your 'oh crap...' solution.  Pop off AE taunt and go into hibernate mode:  Control Breathing, Face of the mountain, Stone Stance.  And for 45 seconds you are the single most ultimate tank, any guardian or berserker could ever dream to be..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love this class )  minor tweaks aside, please dont change it at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Jerako</DIV> <DIV>Najena</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gnaltus on <span class=date_text>12-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:24 AM</span>

[Glimmerella]

You watch my ogre brawler in action and tell me she's not a DPS and a tank.Rawr!

[Cora]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zadkiel343 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm a good tank, but I am having a lot of trouble educating people to believe it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm getting there though, slowly, 1 group at a time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zadkiel.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Quoted for emphasis.</FONT></DIV>

[Cora]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gnaltus wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>Monks are not tanks.  Nor are they supposed to be. </BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yes they are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plus we have multiple taunts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd like some consistency to the randomness of avoidance tanking instead of not needing a heal til mob is a red hp then getting quadded for 600s and having healer tell me 'I'm fired.'</DIV><p>Message Edited by Coraz2 on <span class=date_text>12-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:43 AM</span>

[Gnalt]

<DIV>*sigh* only took 20 minutes for somebody to stop reading after 1 sentence and quote me out of context -_-</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks are not tanks in the sense of the word 'tank'.  We fufill the Fighter AT role just fine, as 'he/she who is solely responsible for accepting the offensive onslaught of a given mob'.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Jerako</DIV> <DIV>Najena</DIV>

[Cora]

No, we are by definition and word of developers, tanks.<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />And if I could think of a sassy allusion for every class about how they weren't healers but casters of spells that increase your hp, I would ):<p>Message Edited by Coraz2 on <span class=date_text>12-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:01 PM</span>

[Gnalt]

<DIV>My point was, I think if you had read my post you probably would have agreed with me.  I know all members of the fighter AT are considered 'tanks' because thats the word the game has adopted to describe their role  <primary damage taker>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Tank</U> - <EM>3.  an enclosed heavily armed and armored combat vehicle.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>/shrug  I dont know about you, but I really dont feel heavily armored; nor do I want to.  I'll stress again, people need to understand a monk's key advantage is avoiding damage, not lessening it.  If we give up on perfecting deflection/avoidance and give into AC boosts...we've lost a unique element of combat strategy that belongs to the brawler class alone.</DIV>

[Cora]

<DIV>Luckily we're getting deflection bonus back and autoshield.</DIV>

[Alskir]

<DIV>27 monk here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Was in a group today where tank left, so I started tanking.  Added a bard as replacement for tank.  I swear we were dropping mobs faster and cleric had more power then with the tank in group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mobs were giants that were yellow double up and below.  In groups of 1 to 5 (at the big crater of giants in steppes).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think monks are tanks first, dps second.  Just the community thinks that monks can't take hits so we're not considered for tanking duty.  Bad reputation or leftover misconceptions from EQ1 maybe.   I dunno.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>This very same argument / debate has been on going in the EQ1 Monk community for the past 3 years, quite ironic how i see it pop up here in EQ2 monk community. Funny thing is, at around lvl 40+ everyone will be looking for "specific" people for a stable group, one that can comfortably grind / quest without much trouble. We will slowly learn our roles, but for now the game is young and experimentation is the thing to be reconized.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The way i look at Monks in EQ2 is we are hybrids between a Warrior / Monk, if it all hits the fan in a bad way for the MA, we can step up and maybe save the day, but at the same time if its a nice group and the MA and cleric are a nice match or know what there doing, then we can be a nice little....lets say group buff with the spells and combat abilitys we can instill on the group that no other class can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we want to tank, sure we can, i can tank lvl 29++ mobs, not easy but it can be done, and im lvl 26, but like i have said before and ill say it again, when i make groups, i always get a Plate class, why? Its simple, they are made to take a hit and mitigate better then any other class, they are a more efficient and cleaner tank, relying on dodge / block to do that tanking for you is like facing a wall and saying to the mob here stab me in the back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is a sample of why people get confused about what we are: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Xanrn wrote:</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We need what EQ 1 Monks and D&D Monks have, an AC Bonus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we try and tank group encounters (I mean groups of Mobs) we get owned because the mobs get onto our Sides and Back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It was the same in EQ 1, the constant switching bewteen Warriors and Knights whenever Sony fiddled with them. All that mattered is which one was a better peformance Tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes we can tank with our buffs on, but staggering stance doesn't last a long fight. Karamic/Martial Focus last about 30-40 seconds and Face of the Mountain 15!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Karmic focus doesn't even last me a lvl 27 solo fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have you seen the Shaolin stage performance? They whack each other with Wooden Planks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If that isn't mitagation I don't know what is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We should be thoose of the Iron Body, not thoose of the squishy Body.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We should be Medium Armour through a combo of our Light Armour and our highly trained bodies. Then with our better block/parry/deflection skills to bridge the gap to Plate Tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I got less AC than Scouts and Priests lower than me, I mean I not even past 1000 ac yet at lvl 27.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am wearing all AQ except gloves where I have higher AC ones and they yellow so more AC to come next level. Full set of Pristine Gold/Agate jewelry except neck and I have a very nice neck piece to wear at lvl 28.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean MAGES come close to my AC, MAGES!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am an old school EQ 1 Tank, Warrior I know AC and I feel bloody naked tanking with upwards of 200 less than Scouts and Priests.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV> <P>Ok some of what you said i fully agree with, but most of what you said seeing you are a old school EQ1 tank makes u look like u just came and started playing EQ, i mean for example :</P> <P>Monks need a AC bonus, the AC bonus in EQ1 does not a single thing to help a monk in any way possible which is why we are trying to get it implemented into something new for being under weight which is the only time u get the AC bonus, mind u, a monk AC is capped at 1350 AC in EQ1 so what use is the AC bonus?</P> <P>Being a old school EQ1 tank you would know how to move multiple mobs to make them face you and not stab your kidneys out or slice your calf muscles down.</P> <P>Warrior on EQ1 have always been the prefereed class for tanking just have never been as many as there has been Pallies / Shadow Knights</P> <P>Shaolin stage performance? ill leave this one alone and back away.</P> <P>I agree with the Iron body, but in the form of reflexs and ability to dodge and block, not teh ability to take a hit.</P> <P>Im lvl 26 and my AC is like 1300 buffed with my Full set of AQ armor.</P> <P>Mages might come close with AC, but whats there mitigation like? non exsistent, meaning they could have 10,000 AC and we would still be able to take hits better then them with 2000 AC, being a old school warrior from EQ1 you would know how AC works and that there is 2 values to the AC number.</P> <P>My wife is a Templar lvl 26 has like 1500 AC and she takes hits worse them me and almost the same as a Caster in a robe class, Why? because her mitigation is crap cause she isnt meant to get hit, simple.</P> <P>So please guys leave the EQ1 / D&D worlds alone and where it is, dont even cross reference it to EQ2 / D&D as they have said, they have made the Monk in EQ2 nothing in comparison to EQ1, go play a Monk in EQ1 and i can bet u a million dollars u will be back here in a flash. I like the fact that i <STRONG><U>CAN</U></STRONG> at least tank something here if it hits the fan or just to keep the xp rolling till a decent tank becomes available opposed to EQ1 where i cant tank a thing worth tanking let alone holding the fort if the tank goes down. Trust me whan i say this, monk got it good here, acually no not good, monks got it <STRONG><U>GREAT</U></STRONG> here. :smileywink:</P> <P>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR>"We are the two halves of the Flowing Circle, the light and the dark. If either grows too weak or too strong, the circle collapses on itself. Here, I will draw a Flowing Circle in the sand for you. Meditate upon the dual nature of our order and ourselves as you practice Kitten Swims Upstream. Perhaps, if you learn something from your meditations, Brother Tenshin will teach the kitten to become a tiger."</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>12-17-2004</span> <span class=time_text>06:32 PM</span>

[Xanrn]

<DIV>Well today I got killed by two double up green centaurs in 4 blows.  Having just soloed one and been hit a total of once the entire fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why not an AC bonus? People look for AC and HP in a Tank, if we have more AC then people are going to except we can tank and stop being whiny [Removed for Content] or flat out laughing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also nice for you having some luck for Adept I's, I on the other hand can't find a Defensive Adept for love or money. I can't even find App3s for my latest couple.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We should have parry/delfection/block 360 degress around us and out fists should be dual wield. What idiot thought hitting with one hand only was alright?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes I know how to move mobs and I know how to move groups of mobs. Though I didn't do much of that in EQ 1, because all encounters were solo and they all had a mind of their own. Plus at higher levels unless you had an Enchanter you had to have someone who could pull one at a time. If you were tanking Multiple mobs in EQ1 something was going wrong. EQ 1 Mobs were balanced for 1 versus 6 players.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the few occasions I can tank in EQ 2 without a healer or someone having paddy and moaning about debt or ceding to a plate of equal or higher level. Everytime I move a group mobs so they all in front in the case of player size mobs, they promtly spread out around me about 2 seconds later.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People don't trust us because we are Random, only Shamans actaully like us. Scouts tanking are less random than us. People don't like being suprised and they don't like people rolling their dice for them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes Monk tanking is tossing the dice, but for the entire group not just you. People do not like gambling their exp especially on other people or a RNG.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know how to keep aggro, mind you it doesn't help our taunts suck I lose aggro I can't get it back even after landing 4 taunts. I can move, turn, make mobs dance. But all this means nothing when I have to rely on the random number generator to keep me alive.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>Here it is:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If there is a shaman in the group then a monk is a better tank, because of how ward works and our evasion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If there is a cleric in the group then a warrior class is a better tank, because of how their reactive heals work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BUT:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We can tank just fine in ANY situation.  Just like we aren't AS good without a shaman, a guardian/berserker isn't as good without a cleric.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have been secondary tank/dps and main tank through the grind to my 40s on various mobs and named.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My perma group has a shaman and a warden in it BUT when those guys aren't around I've still main tanked with clerics, it just isn't ideal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everyone needs to get over this misconception that we aren't tanks, because we are.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>woops, double post</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>12-17-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:45 PM</span>

[Cora]

<DIV>Adding to Gage's statements, 99.99999999999999% of priests seem to be clerics, so everyone thinks we can't tank because there's 3 shamans and a druid serverwide <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <DIV>Here it is:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If there is a shaman in the group then a monk is a better tank, because of how ward works and our evasion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If there is a cleric in the group then a warrior class is a better tank, because of how their reactive heals work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BUT:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We can tank just fine in ANY situation.  Just like we aren't AS good without a shaman, a guardian/berserker isn't as good without a cleric.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have been secondary tank/dps and main tank through the grind to my 40s on various mobs and named.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My perma group has a shaman and a warden in it BUT when those guys aren't around I've still main tanked with clerics, it just isn't ideal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everyone needs to get over this misconception that we aren't tanks, because we are.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Gage i know how much u like to prove to us that we can tank and trust me, i know we can tank and i love to tank myself, but there is ethier two things that i can see that will happen :</P> <P>1) Our AC is ethier going to stop rising at one point in the high end part of the game</P> <P>2) Our AC wont stop rising but the amount of AC mitigation chance we get per AC point will get less at a certain point in the game, where a plate class will get full advantage for a single point of AC.</P> <P>In other words, our AC cant just keep climbing and climbing and climbing, there will be a point for Monks where we do eventually get capped AC, and when that cap is discovered or found, who do u think there going to want to tank? Not monks thats for sure. </P> <P>There is one bad thing about Wards and monk tanking. Wards have two ways to dissipate :</P> <P>1) There timer runs out </P> <P>2) You take too much dmg in the period of the timer and it runs out cause u have taken the MAX amount the ward can absorb</P> <P>This still makes it unreliable for a monk to tank because of the roll of the dice,u might get lucky 7's for a few rolls, u might block, u might parry, u might dodge, BUT then u get a losing streak and all of a sudden the shaman has to chain Ward u cause you are getting smacked for 400 - 500+, and there goes the ward in almost one single hit, then u have the head ache of the shaman having the cool down period on a recast to hit u again with the ward, plus trying to heal u.</P> <P>When i make groups i like to see a Plate MA, Cleric as a healer, Shammy as the slower and Ward caster also back up healer, the rest of the group for DPS. Reason i go this direction is even though the Plate MA might take more hits, there no where near as much as what we would take, and with cleric over time heals plus the buff heal where the Plate MA gets healed as he gets hit AND the Wards last longer on a Plate MA becuase of his huge mitigation, its a set and solid group.</P> <P>Again Gage, yes i know we can tank, and some people love the challenge of keeping us on our feet, but most dont have the skill to do it, or dont want the stress of it, and will ethier leave the group for a more solid group OR just plain leave with out no notice.</P> <P>But i like to look at myself as a group provider, can off tank if it hits the fan and assist the group in some nice DPS and a range of group beneficial combat abilities i can share around at any given time.</P> <P>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR>"We are the two halves of the Flowing Circle, the light and the dark. If either grows too weak or too strong, the circle collapses on itself. Here, I will draw a Flowing Circle in the sand for you. Meditate upon the dual nature of our order and ourselves as you practice Kitten Swims Upstream. Perhaps, if you learn something from your meditations, Brother Tenshin will teach the kitten to become a tiger."</P>

[Xanrn]

<DIV>Yeah, exactly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most people don't want Monks as Tanks because its EASIER in any given situation to have a Plate Tank.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its simple they can just sit back and relax and spam Heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Who is the second person to die once I have an unlucky streak and die? the last person who laid a heal/spell on me. Which is either a priest or a mage, who promtly go down quicker than me using feign.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Best Healers for a Monk? Shaman and Druids, Ward plus AGI.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But alot of Druids are [Removed for Content] off with their class, Clerics 60% Shamans 34% Druids 4% at my level on my server.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gnalt]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR><BR><BR> <P> </P> <P>1) Our AC is ethier going to stop rising at one point in the high end part of the game</P> <P>2) Our AC wont stop rising but the amount of AC mitigation chance we get per AC point will get less at a certain point in the game, where a plate class will get full advantage for a single point of AC.</P> <P>In other words, our AC cant just keep climbing and climbing and climbing, there will be a point for Monks where we do eventually get capped AC, and when that cap is discovered or found, who do u think there going to want to tank? Not monks thats for sure. </P> <P>There is one bad thing about Wards and monk tanking. Wards have two ways to dissipate :</P> <P>1) There timer runs out </P> <P>2) You take too much dmg in the period of the timer and it runs out cause u have taken the MAX amount the ward can absorb</P> <P>This still makes it unreliable for a monk to tank because of the roll of the dice,u might get lucky 7's for a few rolls, u might block, u might parry, u might dodge, BUT then u get a losing streak and all of a sudden the shaman has to chain Ward u cause you are getting smacked for 400 - 500+, and there goes the ward in almost one single hit, then u have the head ache of the shaman having the cool down period on a recast to hit u again with the ward, plus trying to heal u.</P> <P>When i make groups i like to see a Plate MA, Cleric as a healer, Shammy as the slower and Ward caster also back up healer, the rest of the group for DPS. Reason i go this direction is even though the Plate MA might take more hits, there no where near as much as what we would take, and with cleric over time heals plus the buff heal where the Plate MA gets healed as he gets hit AND the Wards last longer on a Plate MA becuase of his huge mitigation, its a set and solid group.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Why do you assume AC would be capped?  I don't see any design flaw now, or forsee one in the future with higher levels and much better armors.  Light armor basically allows us to equip around 60-65% AC of a equal level/ equally equipped plate wearer.  What will stop improving is our deflection and avoidance at some point.  You can't ask to deflect/block/parry better than half the time under unbuffed conditions really.  Mob damage will increase...so will everybody's AC...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/shrug  crazy RNG will always occur.  The rare event where you take 10 rounds of damage in a row is very  uncommon if you're paying attention to what you're doing ;P  You'll have just as many flawless fights as rough ones...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wards don't seem to take into account the AC of it's wearer.  An enchanter will tank just as good as a guardian with the same ward while its up.  If the ward gets hit for max each time, the tank that reduces the amount of hits wins hands down.</DIV> <DIV>This was true last weekend at least, It's hard as hell trying to track down a good 40+ mystic/defiler on Najena lately :smileysad:  it might have been fixed as I havn't grouped with a shaman lately, but I have 2 or 3 logs from rats in RV that suggest such~</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Jerako</DIV> <DIV>Najena</DIV>

[Ashur]

<DIV>The wards don't care about armor class mitigation. My warlock can tank when the shaman has wards on her. My paladin I have direct experience. It's a simple test really: Max hits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With ward up you see Ward absorbs 100, 112, 98, 90, 104 with occasional spikes of 180's 190's from mob insane damage combat arts. When the ward falls my Warlock see's numbers very close to the ones the ward is absorbing. My paladin? Half that, or so. Paladin with my self ward can absorb 300 damage or so, normal hits I see a lot of 80-90's while soloing, yet when my ward falls, I am hit for 40-50 damage or so. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wards do not care about mitigation at all. They care about avoidance. This is why with my paladin, I still use a shield while soloing. The block from a shield is awesome, it's damage my ward does not have to stop. This carries over to brawlers, monks, and bruisers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They simply have more pure avoidance tools than normal tanks. This is why they are hands down, the -best- tanks with a shaman in the group at any level as long as they (like any character) keep their skills at app 3 or better. With a plate tank the shaman's wards go down much faster, and they end up having to use a lot more direct heals.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By all means, if you have a cleric/templar/inquisitor use a guardian or berzerker. If you have a druid/fury/warden, use a shadowknight or paladin their self wards + the regens will own. If you have a shaman/defiler/mystic, use a bruiser or monk. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The key to this game is not pure numbers, I don't care about ac numbers and hps really. It's about skill and knowing what compliments what the best.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gnaltus wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Why do you assume AC would be capped?  I don't see any design flaw now, or forsee one in the future with higher levels and much better armors.  Light armor basically allows us to equip around 60-65% AC of a equal level/ equally equipped plate wearer.  What will stop improving is our deflection and avoidance at some point.  You can't ask to deflect/block/parry better than half the time under unbuffed conditions really.  Mob damage will increase...so will everybody's AC...</BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/shrug  crazy RNG will always occur.  The rare event where you take 10 rounds of damage in a row is very  uncommon if you're paying attention to what you're doing ;P  You'll have just as many flawless fights as rough ones...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wards don't seem to take into account the AC of it's wearer.  An enchanter will tank just as good as a guardian with the same ward while its up.  If the ward gets hit for max each time, the tank that reduces the amount of hits wins hands down.</DIV> <DIV>This was true last weekend at least, It's hard as hell trying to track down a good 40+ mystic/defiler on Najena lately :smileysad:  it might have been fixed as I havn't grouped with a shaman lately, but I have 2 or 3 logs from rats in RV that suggest such~</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Jerako</DIV> <DIV>Najena</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not assuming anything, see the part where you said you dont see any flaws atm? SoE will decide that in the near future, not us, Monks on EQ1 went for 3 years thinking everything was fien and dandy, then one day we couldnt tank a single thing ever again, been like that for the last 2 years, they can simply NOT plan 3-4 years ahead on game mechanics, simply because of other games that come out and fresh ideas will always change the way people think about what direction to take the game. monks on EQ1 used to be able to do EXACTALLY what Monks here do, Tank. Cant tank hardly a thing now.</P> <P>Our deflection / dodge / block skills are based on skill alone. AC has 2 vavlues to it, mitigation and avoidance, how high do u think we are going to be able to go to the point where a mob cant even touch us because our AC Avoidance rating is higher then the Mobs atk rating? </P> <P>SoE MAY have planned that far ahaead, but they didnt in EQ1 and after 3 years of the same thing only to be taken away because of bad palnning and fore seeign what was around the corner, Monks paided dearly.</P> <P>My point is, game is a month old, there has already been changes made to deflection, round sheilds ( twice to sheilds ), dont get to comfortable with anything is what im saying, it can change willy nilly. And without notice or a hint.</P> <P>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR>"We are the two halves of the Flowing Circle, the light and the dark. If either grows too weak or too strong, the circle collapses on itself. Here, I will draw a Flowing Circle in the sand for you. Meditate upon the dual nature of our order and ourselves as you practice Kitten Swims Upstream. Perhaps, if you learn something from your meditations, Brother Tenshin will teach the kitten to become a tiger."</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Xanrn]

<DIV>Cause its about the numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skills cannot effect luck, hence there is a limit to how much skills help.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stop kidding yourself its about the numbers in the end thats all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What the hell do you think drives thoose skills in the first place?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its the Mobs offence roll against your defence roll.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AC+ HP top two stats for a Tank followed by combat stats.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your relying on avoidance for defence you still need good AC and HP to soak up what does get through.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What your saying is, the AC/HP of a mage or a plate doesn't matter which to a Monk.</DIV>

[Velor]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P>SoE MAY have planned that far ahaead, but they didnt in EQ1 and after 3 years of the same thing only to be taken away because of bad palnning and fore seeign what was around the corner, Monks paided dearly.</P> <P>My point is, game is a month old, there has already been changes made to deflection, round sheilds ( twice to sheilds ), dont get to comfortable with anything is what im saying, it can change willy nilly. And without notice or a hint.</P> <P>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Your entire argument is based on the theory that Sony did something once long ago in a different game so that must mean that they will undoubtedly do the same thing again here for this one. And you are already preparing for it barely halfway through the first month of its existence. </P> <P>/boggle</P> <P>Sure things could change. No kidding. ANY aspect of the game could change, right or wrong, good or bad. But at this point, all of it is simple speculation, which you are basing on the fact that it happened many years ago in EQ1. Did anyone forsee the new change coming to Brawlers giving them an innate defense "shield" adjustment? I'd bet most didn't. Is it a change that will benefit Brawler classes? [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] straight it will. Does it fall in line with your "the sky is falling for Monks again" theory above? Not one iota.</P> <P>Look, if you yourself as a Monk can't let go of the concept that this is a brand new game with different mechanics than EQ1, how on earth can you expect other classes to do the same with issues such as Monks being a viable tank? </P> <P>The fact that you also include your EQ1 credentials in your sig says alot, IMO. If you still play your Monk in EQ1 as well as EQ2, great. More power to you. Just remember where one game stops and the other starts. This is EverQuest v2, not EverQuest v1.1. </P>

[Ashur]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xanrn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Cause its about the numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skills cannot effect luck, hence there is a limit to how much skills help.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stop kidding yourself its about the numbers in the end thats all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What the hell do you think drives thoose skills in the first place?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its the Mobs offence roll against your defence roll.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AC+ HP top two stats for a Tank followed by combat stats.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your relying on avoidance for defence you still need good AC and HP to soak up what does get through.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What your saying is, the AC/HP of a mage or a plate doesn't matter which to a Monk.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>No, the AC/HP of a mage, or of any other class including plate tanks doesn't matter to a monk. What matters is that monk. Monks are tanks. Their skill in playing their character controls how much aggro they can control, wether or not the group gets hammered, or even if the monk -dies-. The judicious and intelligent use of the skills available to the monk, determined by the skills of that player, and the make up of that group and -their- skills means more than anything so finite and calculable as AC/HP.</P> <P>I don't care if you have 10000 hps/ac and wearing full vanguard, without the skills to play their class well they will be losing aggro and people will die. If the group doesn't manage their aggro well and use good tactics, the healer will run oop, or draw aggro and get wacked (Since we all know how hard it is to get aggro back once it pops onto someone else, it's hit or miss). </P> <P>Simple fact: HPS/AC is not everything. A Guardian/Berzerker/Shadowknight/Paladin is not always the 'best' tank over a Bruiser/Monk. Get that through your head and you'll have a lot more fun in this game.</P> <P>Is a Monk the best tank?</P> <P>Is a Guardian the best tank?</P> <P>Is a Shadowknight the best tank? </P> <P>The answer to all of these is the same:</P> <P>Sometimes.</P>

[Gnalt]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Not assuming anything, see the part where you said you dont see any flaws atm? SoE will decide that in the near future, not us, Monks on EQ1 went for 3 years thinking everything was fien and dandy, then one day we couldnt tank a single thing ever again, been like that for the last 2 years, they can simply NOT plan 3-4 years ahead on game mechanics, simply because of other games that come out and fresh ideas will always change the way people think about what direction to take the game. monks on EQ1 used to be able to do EXACTALLY what Monks here do, Tank. Cant tank hardly a thing now.</P> <P>Our deflection / dodge / block skills are based on skill alone. AC has 2 vavlues to it, mitigation and avoidance, how high do u think we are going to be able to go to the point where a mob cant even touch us because our AC Avoidance rating is higher then the Mobs atk rating? </P> <P>SoE MAY have planned that far ahaead, but they didnt in EQ1 and after 3 years of the same thing only to be taken away because of bad palnning and fore seeign what was around the corner, Monks paided dearly.</P> <P>My point is, game is a month old, there has already been changes made to deflection, round sheilds ( twice to sheilds ), dont get to comfortable with anything is what im saying, it can change willy nilly. And without notice or a hint.</P> <P><BR> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>On the avoidance built into AC >></P> <P>Are you privy to a read (official preferable) regarding avoidance built into AC?  Would appreciate a link if you are.</P> <P>Even if there is avoidance buit into raw AC, it is almost negligible from what I've seen.  On several occasions I've popped off Control Breathing, Face of the Mountain, and Stone Stance (mostly because its fun)  in both single and multiple mob encounters.  With the round shield equipped I carry around, I was group buffed to a bit over 4200 AC for approx. 40 seconds.  At no point while in this stance did I seem to be avoiding hits any more than I would with just control breathing on.  I could definitely see I was getting hit for a lot less, but getting hit just as often I'm positive.</P> <P>On planning >></P> <P>There's no way, in Verant's wildest dreams, they could believe EverQuest would go on to become what it is to you and me today :smileyhappy:</P> <P>If you went back and told Brad his game would be played by hundreds of thousands of people, still going strong into early 2005.....absolutely no way Jose'</P> <P>I think Sony <EM>is </EM>capable of designing a system that allows for expansion.  They've set a cap of 200 levels, sounds like they're planning to me -_-</P> <P>Jerako</P> <P>Najena</P> <P><BR> </P>

[-Aonein-]

<STRONG></STRONG><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Velorek wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Your entire argument is based on the theory that Sony did something once long ago in a different game so that must mean that they will undoubtedly do the same thing again here for this one. And you are already preparing for it barely halfway through the first month of its existence. </P> <P>/boggle</P> <P>Sure things could change. No kidding. ANY aspect of the game could change, right or wrong, good or bad. But at this point, all of it is simple speculation, which you are basing on the fact that it happened many years ago in EQ1. Did anyone forsee the new change coming to Brawlers giving them an innate defense "shield" adjustment? I'd bet most didn't. Is it a change that will benefit Brawler classes? [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] straight it will. Does it fall in line with your "the sky is falling for Monks again" theory above? Not one iota.</P> <P>Look, if you yourself as a Monk can't let go of the concept that this is a brand new game with different mechanics than EQ1, how on earth can you expect other classes to do the same with issues such as Monks being a viable tank? </P> <P>The fact that you also include your EQ1 credentials in your sig says alot, IMO. If you still play your Monk in EQ1 as well as EQ2, great. More power to you. Just remember where one game stops and the other starts. This is EverQuest v2, not EverQuest v1.1. </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You compeletly missed my point and fully misunderstood me, go back through my posts on this thread and once u have read those come back to me. Dont try and read peoples minds or put words in the mouth when they have 10 threads above the only one u have read. The pharse where u say <STRONG><U><EM>" how on earth can you expect other classes to do the same with issues such as Monks being a viable tank?</EM></U></STRONG>" makes it look like u have no idea on how to play your monk here on EQ2. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People like Gage and myself who accually get out there and make a good tanking name for ourselfs is the people who are trying to learn how to make a decent tank out of ourselfs, sitting here crying i cant tank is just proving you got no idea and u would probally be better off rolling a Plate Class if u really want the lime light in a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Funny thing is, this game isnt a whole lot different then EQ1, u build a group ( specific players ), and go grind XP or quest, me personally i like to quest, but the "mechanics" as u like to say are still some what the same with new material added. The variety of new material is what makes the game a whole new world, stuff that they canned that was intended for EQ1 was implemented in here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im not preparing for anything but at the same time im not making myself comfortable ethier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact that my credentials is on my sig is because im proud of what i had a chance of accomplishing in the world of EQ1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR>"We are the two halves of the Flowing Circle, the light and the dark. If either grows too weak or too strong, the circle collapses on itself. Here, I will draw a Flowing Circle in the sand for you. Meditate upon the dual nature of our order and ourselves as you practice Kitten Swims Upstream. Perhaps, if you learn something from your meditations, Brother Tenshin will teach the kitten to become a tiger." <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Inv]

<DIV>Well last few days I have had some green++ that I have no trouble with then others that like to pop me for 421dmg as fast as they can cycle a skill.  Also thurday logged in got with some friends went to tank giants and all of a sudden they were trashing me. Had been doing this before with same grp for weeks but all of a sudden was being shredded like a paper doll.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing on tanking noticed that Monks have to cycle skills non stop to tank even remotely tank. So I am cycling martial focus and Face of the mountain and so on so forth to try and tank. Where as for a Plate Tank jsut works on taunts mainly. Good friend sits next to me plays a pally and the amount of button masing alone is very diferent.  Personally think some of these buffs should be alot longer in duration. Also face of the mountain is a power hog it seems for a almost non useable buff.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My other concern is what equivlent sheild are we being treated as having I mean I had a 141ac round sheild alot just used 60ac ones. Kinda curous how the deflection will reflect what kinda of defense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Side note anyone else wepaon FX all screwed up for last week or so <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </DIV>

[Inv]

<DIV>doh double post</DIV><p>Message Edited by Invic on <span class=date_text>12-17-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:40 PM</span>

[Velor]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You compeletly missed my point and fully misunderstood me, go back through my posts on this thread and once u have read those come back to me. Dont try and read peoples minds or put words in the mouth when they have 10 threads above the only one u have read. The pharse where u say <STRONG><U><EM>" how on earth can you expect other classes to do the same with issues such as Monks being a viable tank?</EM></U></STRONG>" makes it look like u have no idea on how to play your monk here on EQ2. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People like Gage and myself who accually get out there and make a good tanking name for ourselfs is the people who are trying to learn how to make a decent tank out of ourselfs, sitting here crying i cant tank is just proving you got no idea and u would probally be better off rolling a Plate Class if u really want the lime light in a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I read your posts. I misunderstood nothing. But if anyone is miscomprehending, it's you. The point I made which you so cleverly highlighted but failed to grasp is that it's our job to educate other classes that Monks can tank very well and just as effectively as any other fighter class. The problem is that many other classes don't believe or understand that because of pre-conceived notions from EQ1. You yourself are bringing those same pre-conceived notions from EQ1 so how do you expect other players to get over them if you can't?</P> <P>Get it now? </P> <P>I was on this board long before you were trying to explain to people that Monks can be very good tanks. If you don't believe me, feel free to review my post history. Just stop promoting this crap about Monks eventually getting nerfed. </P> <P>And I find it funny that you're lumping yourself in with Gage about being some sort of pioneer for Monks. LOL. You're only 26. You still have a ways to go. I'm 31 and I know I still do.</P>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>You wanna play the my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is bigger then your because of my lvl? ok thats fine lets play that game, i been on these boards since day one of the release. Im lvl 26 cause i havent played my Monk in the last 2 weeks i think it is now because i have accually been testing a plate class out for myself here in EQ2 to see what all the crying and fuss like yourself is about. if i hadnt gotten curious id be up there with Gage, but i like to learn many aspects of the game so i can get a outlook on why people like yourself have alot to whine about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you read my previous posts you would have some remote clue that i know we can tank, AND ive even offered suggestion on many different ways to tank SINCE the first week in the game, along with Gage, just havent had as much input as he has, but you clearly havent even remotely gone back through my posts here, and havent a clue what your even talking about. Here read this thread i posted vel, it might wake u up a bit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=1896" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=1896</FONT></A> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You will clearly see that there is no issue's with monks being a <STRONG><U>viable</U></STRONG> tank, but there is issues with monks being a <STRONG><U>effcient</U></STRONG> tank, 2 <STRONG><U>TOTALLY</U></STRONG> different things which is what im <STRONG><U>pointing</U></STRONG> out that you have failed to grasp, and besides, we <STRONG><U>dont</U></STRONG> tank, we <STRONG><U>dodge / block / parry</U></STRONG>, being the better word's for tank in monk terms. You being a 31 monk and all would know this, im sure.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like i said Vel, dont try read peoples minds or stick words in there mouth, will fall back on you every time. Alot of people i group with havent even played EQ1 so how can the notion be there if they know nothing about the game to start with and come from games like DAoC or SWG etc, and umm where am i premoting us getting nerfed? Are you scared of getting nerfed Vel? maybe it might effect the way u tank? maybe you dont know how to tank to start with? Zerkers have already been nerfed, and its only been how many weeks now into the game, but your view on game "mechanics" see nothing wrong or flaws dont they? if there is no flaws and nothing wrong, why have they implemented us to use round sheilds, but now taking it away and making it a innate ability for us? seeign as u like to use big words to make yourself look smarter then you really are, u do know what innate means dont you? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whole problem is you have misconcieved yourself with me using the notion that because im from EQ1 with a high end monk from EQ1 that i come here and try to make people think with a notion that we cant tank cause monks cant in EQ1. Sorry to say vel but you do have alot to learn, ALOT. And um, im not putting myself in with Gage, i make a good name for myself on the server i come from, just like gage probally and does for himself on his server, and the next monk and so on, but dont worry ill be anything you wont me to be, u want me to be a pioneer, so be it, u want me to be captian of the seven sea's, np, i can be God if you really want me too, im sure i can fit that into my agenda. I mean after all, i am from EQ1 and cause this is EQ2, monks gotta be treated the same way, right? or am i misconcieving myself with a notion that i miscomprehended and fell through my grasp? let me put it simple, i get tells for groups cause i can tank, thats how simple it really is, it really cannot get any more simpler then that Vel. If you fail to misunderstand that with some notion that you dreamt up in the posts i posted simply because i warned people to not get comfy cause things can change, then do me a favour and read my posts 10 times if u have too, too see my point im tryin to make please before you try rubberish me. One more thing, im sure u get lots of tells from server wide fellow monks asking for hints and tips on whats the best way to go about certain things, i mean after all u are lvl 31 and im only lvl 26.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR>"We are the two halves of the Flowing Circle, the light and the dark. If either grows too weak or too strong, the circle collapses on itself. Here, I will draw a Flowing Circle in the sand for you. Meditate upon the dual nature of our order and ourselves as you practice Kitten Swims Upstream. Perhaps, if you learn something from your meditations, Brother Tenshin will teach the kitten to become a tiger."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>12-18-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:29 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>12-18-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:35 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>12-18-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:40 PM</span>

[Velor]

<DIV>Good grief. For the umpteenth time, I read your point about efficiency versus viability. I understand that. /bangs head against the wall</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your problem is that every person and / or group defines efficiency differently so you can't even make this argument. At all. Every situation is different for different people, from levels to class to location to zone to mob to whatever. I've been in groups with plate types as the tank and the XP flew, just as I have been main tank for other groups where the XP was just as good if not better. Conversely, I've also been in groups with plate tanks where the XP was horrid the same way I've been in groups as the main tank where the XP was just as slow. The whole game is about situations. That's THE entire point I'm trying to make. One situation for one might be bad for another, and vice versa. You're trying to make the argument that it's basically universal across all situations and is eventually going to change. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's not universally true. Learn this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For argument's sake, let's assume that there is one optimal group dynamic that nets XP faster and more efficently than every other one out there. One, it's going to be so niche that players probably won't gain much benefit from it anyway, and two, they will drive themselves absolutely crazy trying to duplicate it every time they log in the game. If that's how they choose to play, fine. But I don't think the vast majority of players fit that category in this game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And btw, I don't post this simply because I am higher level than you. There are tons of Monks out there higher than I am who may or may not post. Gage is one of them and his insight has been very helpful to others. I typically tend to agree with his points because my experiences along the way for the most part have pretty much shadowed his. Again, that's why I post. To lend credibility to the argument. If you don't believe that, check the following threads. And while you're at it, notice the dates too.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=1&message.id=401#M401" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=1&message.id=401#M401</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=502#M502" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=502#M502</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like I siad, I've been promoting our tanking abilities long before you were so kindly step off the horse for a moment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm done here. I don't care one way or another how you play. It doesn't interest me in the least. What does interest me is someone posting on the boards warning about potential nerfs in the future based on flawed logic and evidence. I'm not advocating that what you are saying isn't true. It's just not universally true like you seem to think it is. That's the difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I enjoyed my Monk in EQ1 for over 4 years but one thing I hated was all the negative garbage that people posted on MB about nerfs and whatnot. It's a new game. It's not perfect but I have yet to see any glaring flaws with our class and from what I have read, most high level Monks agree. I'll take their word over the minority who believe that a nerf is inevitable down the road.</DIV>

[Velor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>When i make groups i like to see a Plate MA, Cleric as a healer, Shammy as the slower and Ward caster also back up healer, the rest of the group for DPS. Reason i go this direction is even though the Plate MA might take more hits, there no where near as much as what we would take, and with cleric over time heals plus the buff heal where the Plate MA gets healed as he gets hit AND the Wards last longer on a Plate MA becuase of his huge mitigation, its a set and solid group.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I knew I saw you post this somewhere but I had to find it.</P> <P>Your quote above is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. You're always looking for the same group over and over because you find it to be optimal. The problem is, it's only optimal for some situations but not for everything. Therefore, making universal deductions from this is flawed. </P> <P>You can't make these deductions based off of a limited test bed and be considered credible. Do you not see this??</P>

[Lord Hor]

You cannot BE a DPS, you can only DO DPS! Or don't you know what dps means...?Btw, tank, dd, who cares, just play...

[Galeden]

I didn't really think of myself as being able to tank higher mobs either, till I led a guild group into stormhold looking for a few things, including strongboxes to finish my 3rd armor quest. Well we finally found the boxes and they were yellow to me at 23, and I was the highest one in the group. I think there were 5 of us, and the 2 priests were below 20. One was a druid however and the other a shaman. One I think was 17 at the time. Well, after debating it we decided to give it a try. We started on a group of 3 boxes and I was worried of dropping quickly cause I know in other groups I have seen my health drop suddenly especially early in a fight. But between the shaman's runes and the druids regen, I didn't have a problem at all. Up until then I had only thought I could tank well if the mobs were green or low blue, or I took too much damage and the healer had to constantly heal me and my health kept dropping to red. Anyway I now think monks can very well be the main tank with the right class combination. Cleric groups aren't made for a monk as tank, but with a druid and or shaman it can work very well.

[RadricTyc]

<DIV>Even cleric groups can work.  Bestowal of Vitae (a reactive heal) and other healing skills that clerics get match up very well with all fighters.  The wards that a shaman uses are maybe a little better in that they avoid the damage upfront, but then the debuffs of let's say an inquisitor go a long way towards taking the mob down quickly and thus minimizing danger time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's pretty balanced between the priest classes if you ask me.  I can't see one being TONS better for a monk than another.  If shamans are better its only by like 5%.</DIV>

[Parax]

Don't know what the big problem is. I have a Monk and a Bruiser, both are excellent at tanking in the groups I'm in. I have high agility on both and it plays a big role in your abilities to avoid damage. I have all my armor updated to it's fullest (instead of wasting money on abilities first). I get all my groups to use HO's like a snap, I start the HO, then next person etc. I have been with Shammies,clerics and druids, all work fine.The biggest problem ya'll have is not co-ordinating the group before you start attacking. Bigest problem I have seen yet is the group not planing anything, they just find a target and start pounding away. Have a shammy in the group? /gsay "I'm pulling %T ... Ward me first please". /gsay "I'm starting an HO in 3 seconds..don't use any abilities"! Never had a problem tanking or doing nice damage either.Might take some longer than others to get the nack of being so and so class, expected, as this game is new yet. But, yes, we are made to be tanks as stated by Moorgard and as witnessed first had by my two brawler subclasses.

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Paraxis wrote:<BR>Don't know what the big problem is. I have a Monk and a Bruiser, both are excellent at tanking in the groups I'm in. I have high agility on both and it plays a big role in your abilities to avoid damage. I have all my armor updated to it's fullest (instead of wasting money on abilities first). I get all my groups to use HO's like a snap, I start the HO, then next person etc. I have been with Shammies,clerics and druids, all work fine.<BR>The biggest problem ya'll have is not co-ordinating the group before you start attacking. Bigest problem I have seen yet is the group not planing anything, they just find a target and start pounding away. Have a shammy in the group? /gsay "I'm pulling %T ... Ward me first please". /gsay "I'm starting an HO in 3 seconds..don't use any abilities"! Never had a problem tanking or doing nice damage either.<BR>Might take some longer than others to get the nack of being so and so class, expected, as this game is new yet. But, yes, we are made to be tanks as stated by Moorgard and as witnessed first had by my two brawler subclasses.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Exactally, thats why i group with guildies or friends that i have online. My wife is a Templar so sitting next to her during gameplay when im tanking makes it ever so much easy to communicate and coordinate with each other, rest of the guild knows how we play and we know how they play, but communication and coordination do play a large factor in how to win and winning encounters.</P> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P align=left>Velorak wrote:</P> <P align=center>I'm done here. I don't care one way or another how you play. It doesn't interest me in the least. What does interest me is someone posting on the boards warning about potential nerfs in the future based on flawed logic and evidence. I'm not advocating that what you are saying isn't true. It's just not universally true like you seem to think it is. That's the difference.</P> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P>Exactally Vel, thank you pointing that out. The way i play is my buisness, if it works for me and im able to tank 29++ - 30++ mobs at lvl 26, then ill post on here and let every one know how i go about it, i could not care less how u play ethier. And do please point out where i warned people about nerfing? </P> <P><STRONG>1) Our AC is ethier going to stop rising at one point in the high end part of the game</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>2) Our AC wont stop rising but the amount of AC mitigation chance we get per AC point will get less at a certain point in the game, where a plate class will get full advantage for a single point of AC</STRONG>.</P> <P>Sorry sonny jim, but this isnt a nerf, nor is it a warning to be a nerf, see this is called game "<STRONG><U>mechanics</U></STRONG>", this could already be there, how would you know, your only lvl 31, and i sure as hell dont know cause im lvl 26. I never cryed nerf sorry to burst your bubble. Crying nerf about your own class is like slitting your wrists, yeah really smart Vel.</P> <P> My Agility at lvl 26 is 76, buffed im at 102, i hardly get hit during a fight, BUT when i do get hit, i take big damage, as time goes on and <STRONG>we make</STRONG> a good tanking name for ourselves, ( not to mention when they implement Round Sheilds to give us a innate deflection bonus ), and Plate Class kick up a stink cause we can tank just as viable as they do, but not as effciently ( see effciently is when the healer / healers dont run out of mana and the group can comfortable countine a chain pull session and effciently means that that they have a constant innate DI where there born to mitigate, u know take a large blow and soften it ) JUST like they have about Berserkers, what do u think will happen then? have i mentioned anything about a nerf? No, u have misconcieved yourself with the notion you have  yourself from EQ1.</P> <P>This is how it works, see Plate Armour has this thing called, Innate DI ( <STRONG>D</STRONG>amage <STRONG>I</STRONG>ntake ), which means they are born to take a blow, and take it well. Its what there made to do, and there Innate DI is higher then any other class. Which in turn means they get higher amount of HP to compensate for the blows they will take and a higher AC count as well.</P> <P>Light Armor class wearers have a innate dodge / block / parry, meaning we are the kings of evading and avoiding attacks, this is how a monk tanks, he tanks by not getting hit, so in other words, monks dont tank anything, we dodge and avoid stuff, because we must try our hardest to not get hit cause we dont have a innate DI like a plate class does and when we do get hit, its for a large amount, AND seeing as our Innate ability to dodge / block / parry isnt as constant as a Plate Class's innate DI, thats what makes us a non effcient tank, of course we are a <STRONG>VERY</STRONG> viable tank, just some times it can get ugly, really quick, and for no reason at all except for the roll of a dice.</P> <P>For example, a Plate class might have a 10% Innate DI and a Medium class might have a 7% Innate DI and Light Armor might have a 5% DI, and Robe class might have a 3% Innate DI. Thus meaning that Plate Class is the superiour one for taking melee hits, the rest comes down to resistances, they can play a HUGE factor in EQ2 and can make a Plate class OR anyone for that matter look like the gimpest tank you ever did see. The percentage just means how it effects your accual Damage Intake, it has nothing to do with your ability to dodge / block / parry attacks.</P> <P><STRONG><U>AGAIN</U></STRONG>, im not saying we cant tank for those who are confused by Veloraks notion, and im deffiently <STRONG><U>not</U></STRONG> crying nerf bat, i know [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] well we can tank and tank [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] good, i do it all the time myself, but i dont care what <STRONG><U>anyone</U></STRONG> says, we are not as <STRONG><U>effcient</U></STRONG> as a plate class its as simple as 1,2,3. It really cannot get any simpler then that. The chance of getting a bad roll against us during a tanking session, makes it easy to take those big damage spikes, you know one minute everything is fine, the next second or in the blink of a eye your at 50%, im sure alot out there know EXACTALLY what i mean, like i said i been offering my suggestions since day one of release. This is what happens when someone takes a Threoy and a Feeling and turns it into Speculation.</P> <P>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR>"We are the two halves of the Flowing Circle, the light and the dark. If either grows too weak or too strong, the circle collapses on itself. Here, I will draw a Flowing Circle in the sand for you. Meditate upon the dual nature of our order and ourselves as you practice Kitten Swims Upstream. Perhaps, if you learn something from your meditations, Brother Tenshin will teach the kitten to become a tiger."</P> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>12-19-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:10 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>12-19-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:47 AM</span>

[Mamasee]

1) Our AC is ethier going to stop rising at one point in the high end part of the game2) Our AC wont stop rising but the amount of AC mitigation chance we get per AC point will get less at a certain point in the game, where a plate class will get full advantage for a single point of AC.Where did you get this information from?

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>I didnt get the information from anywhere, and i dont assume this is what will happen, but who knows the later of the 2 could be there, we dont know, game is too new, and no one is high enough to run a million parses to test it, but its just a feeling i have. The fun is in not knowing :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR>"We are the two halves of the Flowing Circle, the light and the dark. If either grows too weak or too strong, the circle collapses on itself. Here, I will draw a Flowing Circle in the sand for you. Meditate upon the dual nature of our order and ourselves as you practice Kitten Swims Upstream. Perhaps, if you learn something from your meditations, Brother Tenshin will teach the kitten to become a tiger."</DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>WE ARE TANKS.  PERIOD.</DIV>

[Graz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <DIV>WE ARE TANKS.  PERIOD.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree, but I think (don't take offense) that you personally have some rather nice conditions to work with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At your spot in the game (high play time, high level), most of the healers are competent and alert.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That doesnt apply once outside the top teir. There are lots of slacker healers (and plenty of incompetent ones).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plate tanks can function with sloppy healers. Monks really can't. Get a damage spike while that slacker healer has his hand in the Tostitos bag and down you go, monk salsa. With a plate tank, its chips, heal, chips, heal, chips, heal ... no damage spikes, happy fat lazy healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That's why so many people prefer plate tanks: predicatability means they can slack. And that wraps around into the misconception that we can't tank ... that really isn't it ... its that most healers can't or won't heal. Unfortunately if the group won't let me tank, the reasons don't really matter :/</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that's what tees me off the most about this whole tanking thing. Its not that we can't tank, its not anything at all to do with how we perform. You can be the most most skilled, best geared monk in the game ... but in a group with a slacker healer, a plate class will "out-tank" you through sheer predictability. It just frustrates the hell outta me. I frikin hate slacker healers :/</DIV>

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Grazel wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><DIV>WE ARE TANKS. PERIOD.</DIV><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV>I agree, but I think (don't take offense) that you personally have some rather nice conditions to work with.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>At your spot in the game (high play time, high level), most of the healers are competent and alert.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>That doesnt apply once outside the top teir. There are lots of slacker healers (and plenty of incompetent ones).</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Plate tanks can function with sloppy healers. Monks really can't. Get a damage spike while that slacker healer has his hand in the Tostitos bag and down you go, monk salsa. With a plate tank, its chips, heal, chips, heal, chips, heal ... no damage spikes, happy fat lazy healer.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>That's why so many people prefer plate tanks: predicatability means they can slack. And that wraps around into the misconception that we can't tank ... that really isn't it ... its that most healers can't or won't heal. Unfortunately if the group won't let me tank, the reasons don't really matter :/</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I think that's what tees me off the most about this whole tanking thing. Its not that we can't tank, its not anything at all to do with how we perform. You can be the most most skilled, best geared monk in the game ... but in a group with a slacker healer, a plate class will "out-tank" you through sheer predictability. It just frustrates the hell outta me. I frikin hate slacker healers :/</DIV><hr></blockquote>Naw, at level 40 I see incompetent players all the time. Its easy to find a grind spot and grind xp to lvl 50. The more challenging things is where you see the classes shine and player skill matter. Monks can easily tank in grind groups, I do it all the time. However, try tanking against boss mobs, or tank well through a harder instance zone. That is where plate tanks out tank monks. Not to mention, if you have a zerker in the group its pointless to try to tank. They can hold aggro so much better. Just the other day we had a numbskull cleric in our pick up group that let the main tank die 4 times in about 45 mins to an hour. I finally told the leader of the group that the cleric got kicked or i walked. I ended up leaving the group, clerics are more important than monks it seems. Especially when they're not as common as fighters. When I am with my guild I never have this problem. Because my guild mates and I know how to execute our skills properly with each other. Just because someone is level 50 does not mean they are a good player. Granted, I know some players that were not that good at level 20 and now at level 40 they are way better, and have learned to play their class. So, yes sometimes that is true.

[Nt]

<DIV>That's the thing about Monks, not a lot of room for error.</DIV> <DIV>When things are great boy are they splenderific, but the second someone picks a booger everyone dies.  Well it's not that bad but that's the idea.</DIV> <DIV>My suggestion: at the risk of being a jerk make a macro as follows...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/g #FF0000 HEAL ME NOW!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then the second your health hits 50% press it like theres no tomorow.  lf it doesnt catch their attention, nothing will.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But as long as I'm with my perma group boy do I feel good about being a monk.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GangsterFist wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grazel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <DIV>WE ARE TANKS. PERIOD.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree, but I think (don't take offense) that you personally have some rather nice conditions to work with.</DIV> <DIV>At your spot in the game (high play time, high level), most of the healers are competent and alert.</DIV> <DIV>That doesnt apply once outside the top teir. There are lots of slacker healers (and plenty of incompetent ones).</DIV> <DIV>Plate tanks can function with sloppy healers. Monks really can't. Get a damage spike while that slacker healer has his hand in the Tostitos bag and down you go, monk salsa. With a plate tank, its chips, heal, chips, heal, chips, heal ... no damage spikes, happy fat lazy healer.</DIV> <DIV>That's why so many people prefer plate tanks: predicatability means they can slack. And that wraps around into the misconception that we can't tank ... that really isn't it ... its that most healers can't or won't heal. Unfortunately if the group won't let me tank, the reasons don't really matter :/</DIV> <DIV>I think that's what tees me off the most about this whole tanking thing. Its not that we can't tank, its not anything at all to do with how we perform. You can be the most most skilled, best geared monk in the game ... but in a group with a slacker healer, a plate class will "out-tank" you through sheer predictability. It just frustrates the hell outta me. I frikin hate slacker healers :/</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Naw, at level 40 I see incompetent players all the time. Its easy to find a grind spot and grind xp to lvl 50. The more challenging things is where you see the classes shine and player skill matter. Monks can easily tank in grind groups, I do it all the time. However, try tanking against boss mobs, or tank well through a harder instance zone. That is where plate tanks out tank monks. <FONT color=#ffff00>Not to mention, if you have a zerker in the group its pointless to try to tank. They can hold aggro so much better. <BR></FONT><BR>Just the other day we had a numbskull cleric in our pick up group that let the main tank die 4 times in about 45 mins to an hour. I finally told the leader of the group that the cleric got kicked or i walked. I ended up leaving the group, clerics are more important than monks it seems. Especially when they're not as common as fighters. <BR><BR>When I am with my guild I never have this problem. Because my guild mates and I know how to execute our skills properly with each other. Just because someone is level 50 does not mean they are a good player. Granted, I know some players that were not that good at level 20 and now at level 40 they are way better, and have learned to play their class. So, yes sometimes that is true.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Not for long, since blood rage is getting fixed.<BR>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>And there is alot of slacker healers out there, Gage u yourself said that you have a set group of people you group with, this is fine for the people that you group with day in day out, as you all know each others play style. Even when u take 10 mins to try and explain and coordinate the group at the beginning of a fresh new group with strangers, its still a nightmare. Healers do really have to be on the ball with Monks tanking, which is why my wife made a cleric, easier to communicate with each other like that, and we seem to do pretty good as a team. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I 100% agree we are tanks, but we are nothing without decent back up. People will rather a Plate tank for the less amount of effort they have to go through keeping him up on his feet. You and your friends have a system down pat Gage that you follow and works for you, try and expalin how you want strangers to play and see where that gets you, i dont like bashing my head on concrete.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2 reasons why people dont like monks tanking:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) there lazy</DIV> <DIV>2) they got no idea what there doing</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aonein Amillion 26th Monk<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR><BR>"We are the two halves of the Flowing Circle, the light and the dark. If either grows too weak or too strong, the circle collapses on itself. Here, I will draw a Flowing Circle in the sand for you. Meditate upon the dual nature of our order and ourselves as you practice Kitten Swims Upstream. Perhaps, if you learn something from your meditations, Brother Tenshin will teach the kitten to become a tiger."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>12-19-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:02 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>12-19-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:07 PM</span>