Monks are to broke

[Wana]

<DIV> <DIV>I play a 29 monk and a 22 guardian both are well equipped with high agi 85 on the monk and depending on equipment choice 70 on the guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now my Guardian can solo any green mob it can be group mobs or solo mobs, he will solo them and get hit 3-4 maxium no matter how many mobs are in the encounter,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now i go to my monk with brawlers stance adept 3 giving hugh boost in deflection and def i cannot solo any green group mob at all! i can barly solo mobs 2-3 lvl above me that i see other classes soloing when they are 2 lvls below me i am tired of playing a broke class it is not fun, monks delfection skills are probley the worst of any fighters type yet that is the main point of being a monk is u AVOID damage in sacrife for low armor, atm i got low delfection and low armor, i log on my guardian and laught at green con mobs trying to hit me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You need to fix this SoE i play my guardian atm not because i enjoy it but because my monk has no role in a grp atm, We cannot tank anywhere near as good as a guardian, we cannot offer the dps of a scout, we are a nothing class that is broken.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People moaned about this for months in beta and there is still nothing being down in retail about it.</DIV></DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>You are wrong.</DIV>

[Wana]

<DIV>wrong how? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>what type of answer is that let me know why i am wrong</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>because from playing a assassin to 31 guardain to 22 and monk to 29 i think i am correct on all accounts, in my comprassions to both melle avoidience and dps compared to a gurdian and scout</DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>Maybe because I routinely solo yellows?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe because I MT for my normal group up to 40++ mobs?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe because monk isn't broken at all, and its a great class?</DIV>

[Blaze]

I am begining to agree with Gage. I just got level 25 and my monk is starting to get pretty awesome.I can solo green ++ mobs. I routinely tank decently in pickup groups. I do some nice DPS. Last night my groups healer actually complimented my tanking. Said I did the best tanking she ever saw from a non guardian. Just make sure you always use a shield when you are tanking. It makes a huge difference.Now every once in a while I will go on a unlucky streak and get beatdown by a few mobs in a row. But then I will not get touched by the next few. It evens out.<p>Message Edited by Blaze79 on <span class=date_text>12-09-2004</span> <span class=time_text>06:28 PM</span>

[Taeda]

<DIV>yea i agree with gage, im a 30 monk and i can solo yellows and even green ^^ mobs, and i can  be main tank for my to group whenever needed. i was hunting in runnyeye and our MT and healer both died, i had brawler stance on and parry buff and i was able to tank wtihout a healer two ^ golems tho one golem was already mostly dead and i did have to use mend.</DIV>

[Zana]

While the Monk subclass is not perfect (nothing ever is), it is far from "broken". One of the problems I would guarantee most of these folks who are complaining have is that they are poorly equipped, using App1's, and not using their abilities to their fullest. Please do not take this as a flame, as I am simplying stating what I've come to notice.Please don't scream "broken". Suggest changes if you think something is wrong.

[SomeDudeCRO]

I'm starting to agree with Gage more and more. I'm 30 and having a blast with my monk <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Gulslat]

i dont understand how some people say they can tank yet i take ~450dmg each hit from blues even.

[kazla_pe]

lvl 39 monk here I routinely tank for group hitting yellow con ++ mobs. I also solo white/yellow con solo mobs with little or no problems at all. As it stands if we cannot find a guardian above 36 I will tank for the group since Guardians more than 4 levels below seem to tank way worse than I do. Only problem for healers is that the spikes of damage I get sometimes are prety nasty, I can go for a long time without even being hit and then in one round it put me in the red.

[Goldxn]

Man i am a freaking lawn mower. I routinly group with a higher lvl berserk who i often pull aggro from. when she dies i can hold my own for a long while, w/o a healer, or at least long enough for others to run and me to FD. THe class is getting better everyday, and must thank the monks who came before us for alot of helpful input. BTW what lvl can you start using cesti's already got some but really itchin for the 12str 12agi boost. Have been complemented on tanking b4 too. That sure does feel good! all the bad rap we get...

[Newt]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Goldxngt wrote:<BR>Man i am a freaking lawn mower. I routinly group with a higher lvl berserk who i often pull aggro from. when she dies i can hold my own for a long while, w/o a healer, or at least long enough for others to run and me to FD. THe class is getting better everyday, and must thank the monks who came before us for alot of helpful input. BTW what lvl can you start using cesti's already got some but really itchin for the 12str 12agi boost. <BR><BR>Have been complemented on tanking b4 too. That sure does feel good! all the bad rap we get...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>@Goldxngt: Could you please make a Screenshot of those cesti's i have never seen them befor and all the stats would interest me.</P> <P>thanks Enoshis<BR></P>

[Kwonryu_DragonFi]

<DIV>It gets better after lvl 25! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[WackyDakky]

<DIV>Monks are definately not broken.  If you think we're broken, you should have seen us in beta.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks today have it easy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  When I was in beta we tanked horribly and had no real defensive skills and broken deflection.  We've come a long way since then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We're also one of the most versitile classes in the game.  We do damage and tank.  We're hard to kill with FD, mend and avoidance.  We get around easily with Wind Walk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Broken? Nope.  You just need to remember that you're not a guardian (and you shouldn't be).  We have round shields now too, which help.  Get a good round shield and a Starfall to tank with... or, buy a lot of agility equipment and some dual wield +agi weapons for tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lots of possibilities <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Oh]

What's a Starfall? Also, at level 21 I'm using Motte's Guard, round shield to tank with. It's blue to me and not bad, but I'd like to upgrade as I'm often the only tank in my guild online. Any suggestions?

[Musashi-]

I have been saying all along that monks arent broke. I tank fine, I have good DPS, I have good Group buffs, I can FD when the crap hits the fan to rez People(if we are in a safe spot) I can buff priests with agro reducers, what more do you need out of a group mate??

[Bildorm]

<DIV>If you think the monks are broke, maybe the monk class is not for you.  All the classes have issues but maybe you were not cut out to be a monk.</DIV>

[Musashi-]

Also Monks really shine when you get to 40+

[stfields]

<DIV>I saw a big difference when I upgraded all my gear to boost my agility as much as I could (or could afford!).  The Druid-line agility buff is also a big help.  I push 100 agility at level 24 when tanking.  The amount of attacks I dodge is very nice.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seeing as some level 30+ monks came out of the woodwork and informed the community that monks can indeed tank, maybe they will quell this fear that monks are a broken class.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you play your class right, you can tank fine.</DIV>

[Kair]

<DIV>Ever since I have hit level 22 even con mobs constantly hit me with 100 damage and honostly I would like to see one monk prove to me they can tank and do better damage than scouts. As it is groups would rather have a scout over monks.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Goldxngt wrote:<BR>Man i am a freaking lawn mower. I routinly group with a higher lvl berserk who i often pull aggro from. when she dies i can hold my own for a long while, w/o a healer, or at least long enough for others to run and me to FD. THe class is getting better everyday, and must thank the monks who came before us for alot of helpful input. <FONT color=#ffff00>BTW what lvl can you start using cesti's already got some but really itchin for the 12str 12agi boost. <BR></FONT><BR>Have been complemented on tanking b4 too. That sure does feel good! all the bad rap we get...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Feysteel Cestii's like mine are lvl 34.  Take the skill required and divide by 5.  So 215 would be 43.<BR>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kairel wrote:<BR> <DIV>Ever since I have hit level 22 even con mobs constantly hit me with 100 damage and honostly I would like to see one monk prove to me they can tank and do better damage than scouts. As it is groups would rather have a scout over monks.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Make a character on Guk.  We have a few 35+ monks that know how to play their class <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Newtee wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Goldxngt wrote:<BR>Man i am a freaking lawn mower. I routinly group with a higher lvl berserk who i often pull aggro from. when she dies i can hold my own for a long while, w/o a healer, or at least long enough for others to run and me to FD. THe class is getting better everyday, and must thank the monks who came before us for alot of helpful input. BTW what lvl can you start using cesti's already got some but really itchin for the 12str 12agi boost. <BR><BR>Have been complemented on tanking b4 too. That sure does feel good! all the bad rap we get...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>@Goldxngt: Could you please make a Screenshot of those cesti's i have never seen them befor and all the stats would interest me.</P> <P>thanks Enoshis<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>These?</P> <P><IMG src="http://home.comcast.net/~opstar/cestii.jpg"></P> <P>2.0 dealy, +21 power, +24 health, +6 agi, +6 str 18-54 @ 36 20-59 @ 39.</P> <P>Cestii of the Master is better :o<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>12-10-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:17 AM</span>

[Wana]

<DIV>My equipment is very good the only bad item i have is my hat have yet to find a good one with stats for light armor, well i have but people are idiots and think they can charege 2pp for them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if i am soloing a a green group mob with my monk</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I go brawlers adept 3</DIV> <DIV>Charge in there  click the highent delfection skill line</DIV> <DIV>toughness</DIV> <DIV>call to arms (don't really need it but might as well)</DIV> <DIV>then i start of with my dps skills re clicking anything that fads spaming HO's</DIV> <DIV>I make sure mob mobs are behind as well all know cannot mitagate **mods 4 teh win!!1!** from the back</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And i have yet to beat one i cannot see where i am going wrong if i am pls say would love to hear it from you people who claim to me masters and can play a monk so well</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can tank and do tank very well, with a shm in grp a monk is a good tank no problem keeping agro at all</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My grief is with the fact that guardian on green group mobs aviod more then me this is not just from talking to players this is from playing the charecters for myself, if it is against a blue+ mob ii am not disputing that i might avoid more (still not enough tho)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone saying they can out dps a ranger or assassin with there monk need to play with a good ranger or assassin belive you me we don't come close, i am unbiased i have played both classes to a mid lvl and they both have flaws but a ranger and assassin dps pls don't try and compare them to a monk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have cetsi fist waiting for me in bank for when i get 34 i always have some of the best equipemt avalibale for me at all times</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So all the sly comments trying to suggest i have no idea how to play, we can drop that **mods 4 teh win!!1!** right now i am a very skilled players of all classes i play</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also i did play a monk in beta to 26 played almost all class types to 20 in beta so i know how far they have come , but somthing is cleary not correct wither it be guardians are over powered or monk mitagation not working correclty </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Wanand on <SPAN class=date_text>12-10-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:49 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Wanand on <span class=date_text>12-10-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:27 AM</span>

[Cora]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>(Picture here)<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That's one [Removed for Content] looking grimace.</DIV>

[Huflu]

<DIV>He can strain all day, but it just won't come out.</DIV>

[WackyDakky]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ohru wrote:<BR>What's a Starfall? <BR><BR>Also, at level 21 I'm using Motte's Guard, round shield to tank with. It's blue to me and not bad, but I'd like to upgrade as I'm often the only tank in my guild online. Any suggestions?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It's a 25+ 1h quest mace in TS (approx 25-76 at 26 @2.5).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You need to find a better round shield.  The 20+ shields have a big AC boost compared to the lower ones.  I don't know where to find one offhand, just the market.</DIV>

[Cora]

<DIV>I find using shields is demeaning to the monk class.</DIV>

[Loups]

<DIV>You know, I was nervous about following my chosen profession (monk) when I began reading all these "my monk can't tank and he can't dps WAAAAAAAAAAAH!" posts, but a few people (like Gage) helped me maintain hope.  So, I continued on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A couple of nights ago, I finally hit 20 and was stoked.  First thing I did was find some double arrow greens to try and solo, thinking "let's see if this hype about not being able to tank is true."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The first one I tried, I killed without losing a single health point.  Not one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, I know there will be naysayers that say "ya cuz he was green and when I try to solo a double arrow orange mob he just OWNS me!  Not fair! <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, well, no one should be soloing those types.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, casters hurt us a bit more than other tanks, and when we do get hit, it hurts a bit more, but hey, I think our strengths more than make up for those weaknesses.  And again, we've been told by the mods that, in some situations, some sub-classes will tank better than others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm fortunate...my bro that I duo with is a Shaman Mystic and, well, we just rock.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not only do I rarely die (or even get orange health, for that matter) when we play together, but my dps is by far better than any other tank I've seen (haven't seen any bruisers of course...I assume they do even a bit better).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last night, we were grouped with a bard, and I was easily out-damaging him.  Now, of course, the bard is probably the lightest damage dealer of the scout class, and he was a level below me, but still, to be able to out-damage even the lightest dps-er of the the scout line and tank as good as we do is just amazing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hm, maybe I better stop before Sony comes in and nerfs this class that I love so much <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't wait to finish the armor quests...just starting on aq2 tonight.  Despite all the nay-sayers, I think it looks pretty freakin' sweet.  A lot better than the brown leather looking stuff I been wearing for several levels now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/steps down from Fan-boy soap box</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. Hey Gage, 2 questions about Cesti's:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1-do they do slashing damage? (am i gonna need to be leveling up slash to use 'em?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2-are the animations with cesti's equiped the same as bare-fisted?  cuz i love that animation, and can't seem to find any good fist-wraps to equip.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Loupson on <SPAN class=date_text>12-10-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:08 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Loupson on <span class=date_text>12-10-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:22 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<DIV>1) Yes, slashing.  2) Nope, all new animations.</DIV>

[Cyngii]

<DIV>I haven't a clue where your problems are coming from.  Green mobs haven't posed much of a threat to me as of yet, and it doesn't seem that too many on the peeps on this board have probs with greens.  Although, from lower levels i still tend to stay away from casters (old habits die hard).  Since i am still newb monk greens to me are still in high teens and don't have the level 20+ boost, and I'm sure things will be a bit harder in a couple levels, but greens are for the most part a joke right now.  Heck fighting green double up arrow melee mobs are fun.  I might get hit twice the whole fight on average.</FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>i'm not sure if others are experiencing the same thing, but I get compliments from healers on how well i tank and how they prefer Monk tanks in general.  It's kinda hit or miss though just like a lot of things in this game.  Some people prefer scouts for DPS, others prefer mages... some prefer plate tanks as MT others prefer monks... I have no prob with being a secondary tank, and usually am since a lot of groups are hellbent on having a plate MT, but I know we can tank right with them as I end up tanking a lot of mobs they die to.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>As far as buffs go.  The only 2 that I really worry about right now are Brawler's Stance and Call to Arms.  I think that CtA is pretty important as it makes up from the skill hits we take from Brawler's Stance.  I think that Brawler Stance App 3 knocks your weapon skills down around 8 pts and Call to Arms gives around 7.  I'm not sure on the exact numbers there but I'm pretty sure that  with both enabled my crushing skill is 109/110.  I rarely use toughness, as it doesn't seem to do much and the short duration is more of a pain than anything else.  The only stat that i've seen it effect has been Defense which with Adept 1 at level 21 it adds 20 i think... I'm not sure if going from 600 defense to 620 makes that big of a difference in the grand scheme of things.  Bruisers get a skill that increases their defense by 1000... what's 20 going to do?</FONT></DIV>

[Wana]

<DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm;jsessionid=D6BA4BE98BE1A790B2192C1348F1 55E8.sdt-foyert19-27109?characterId=237004204" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm;jsessionid=D6BA4BE98BE1A790B2192C1348F1 55E8.sdt-foyert19-27109?characterId=237004204</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>here is my profile still cannot see where i going wrong in my tactics, not seen anyone else say anyhing wrong with my tactics either</DIV>

[Dovifat]

<blockquote><hr>Loupson wrote: First thing I did was find some double arrow greens to try and solo, thinking "let's see if this hype about not being able to tank is true."</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>The first one I tried, I killed without losing a single health point. Not one.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Now, I know there will be naysayers that say "ya cuz he was green and when I try to solo a double arrow orange mob he just OWNS me! Not fair! <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />"</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>But, well, no one should be soloing those types.<hr></blockquote>Hate to break it to you but everyone can solo a green^^ at level 20. 20 is a treshold for players as well as mobs, both get a considerable boost. So, soloing a green^^ at lvl 20, you got that boost already, the mob didnt.

[Musashi-]

If you want to be a very effective Tank use a shield... also had 2 of these made for me yesterday.. Game wide firsts.. they work pretty darn goodhttp://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/item.vm?itemId=16352steel forged knuckles

[Cora]

<DIV>Green ^^ centaurs own me at 25, hit for like 400.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Coraz2 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Green ^^ centaurs own me at 25, hit for like 400.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No class is meant to solo ++ mobs, period.  Just because you can every once in awhile doesn't mean anything.<BR>

[Denset]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Loupson wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A couple of nights ago, I finally hit 20 and was stoked.  First thing I did was find some double arrow greens to try and solo, thinking "let's see if this hype about not being able to tank is true."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yes, you hit 20.  At 20, your damage output increases immensely, and you have the deflection skill of a level 27.8 Monk.  You were soloing mobs below 20.  There is absolutely no reason why any green at 20 should be able to beat a Monk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You know the deflection skill you have?  The one that's as high as a level 27.8 Monk?  At level 27.8, your deflection skill will be equal to that of a level 27.8 Monk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While I can tank at 28, it's NOWHERE near my tanking abilities back when I was 20.  It's not really a valid comparison.</DIV>

[Cora]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Coraz2 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Green ^^ centaurs own me at 25, hit for like 400.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No class is meant to solo ++ mobs, period.  Just because you can every once in awhile doesn't mean anything.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>That was my point, silly. Everything with ^^s has quad barrage quickstrike +5 vorpal attacks that hit for 20,000% of their normal damage.</P> <P> </P> <P>PS I'm tanking in cove of decay in lieu of a 23 guardian and group is mystified.</P><p>Message Edited by Coraz2 on <span class=date_text>12-11-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:30 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Coraz2 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Coraz2 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Green ^^ centaurs own me at 25, hit for like 400.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No class is meant to solo ++ mobs, period.  Just because you can every once in awhile doesn't mean anything.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>That was my point, silly. Everything with ^^s has quad barrage quickstrike +5 vorpal attacks that hit for 20,000% of their normal damage.</P> <P> </P> <P>PS I'm tanking in cove of decay in lieu of a 23 guardian and group is mystified.</P> <P>Message Edited by Coraz2 on <SPAN class=date_text>12-11-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:30 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I was just backing you up of course <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Cora]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Coraz2 wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Coraz2 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Green ^^ centaurs own me at 25, hit for like 400.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No class is meant to solo ++ mobs, period.  Just because you can every once in awhile doesn't mean anything.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>That was my point, silly. Everything with ^^s has quad barrage quickstrike +5 vorpal attacks that hit for 20,000% of their normal damage.</P> <P> </P> <P>PS I'm tanking in cove of decay in lieu of a 23 guardian and group is mystified.</P> <P>Message Edited by Coraz2 on <SPAN class=date_text>12-11-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:30 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I was just backing you up of course <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Of course.</P> <P> </P> <P>Long reply</P>

[RadricTyc]

<DIV>The problems I have experienced thus far (only level 23 monk) are:</DIV> <UL> <LI>When I get circled by mobs (4 or more) where they insist on getting behind me, my defenses start to fail on me.  They hit me a lot more, even white con mobs.</LI> <LI>When I want to get and keep agro it can be very very difficult.  I have exactly 3 taunt-like arts.  These are most of the time not enough to pull creatures off the healer once they decide he is dinner. (yes they are adept level)</LI> <LI>As many have said I get nuked occasionally.  This can be very bad when lag spikes happen.  One well timed series of nukes that hit while a lag spike happens, means I am dead or so close to it that all confidence is lost in my ability to tank these creatures.</LI></UL> <P>Yes I still have a ways to go, maybe at 25 I get more hate/anti-hate arts and that will help.  The thing that bothers me is that guardians, berserkers, paladins, and shadowknights all get armor that protects them NO MATTER WHAT.  While our defensive bonuses don't seem to work if they get us from behind.  This doesn't seem very fair.</P> <P>I think monks and bruisers either need an innate ability to avoid attacks from behind, or a skill we pick up at some point that enables us to treat rear attacks on us as frontal attacks.   I find we are great tanks for 1 or 2 creatures, we parry and block like machines.  But when the numbers increase we get exponentially worse.  I suppose if we were inside and could back against a wall everything would be cool.  But out in the wilderness such scenarios are not so easy to enegineer.</P> <P>Edit: small correction: I have 3 hate arts and 1 anti-hate art.  This anti-hate buff can help but rarely.  Maybe the fault does lie with the priest here, shouldn't he be using his anti-hate spell?  Compared to a berserker though, he never loses agro in our groups, while I seem to lose it a lot for multi creature encounters.</P><p>Message Edited by RadricTycho on <span class=date_text>12-12-2004</span> <span class=time_text>06:16 AM</span>

[Mamasee]

Tycho:I have no prolbems keeping the monsters in front of me, you just have to move around a bit. I have the adept 1 hand clap and taunting slap I have little prolbems keeping aggro, also group buff spells draw a good aggro, I use them also if needed. If a berzerker uses there frenzy mode it will take a crowbar to split them apart, I am not sure if that is working as intended however.

[Sant]

<DIV>I dont think monks are broken per say I just think that Sony has a sorry idea of what a monk should be.</DIV>

[netswine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Densetsu wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Loupson wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A couple of nights ago, I finally hit 20 and was stoked.  First thing I did was find some double arrow greens to try and solo, thinking "let's see if this hype about not being able to tank is true."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yes, you hit 20.  At 20, your damage output increases immensely, and you have the deflection skill of a level 27.8 Monk.  You were soloing mobs below 20.  There is absolutely no reason why any green at 20 should be able to beat a Monk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You know the deflection skill you have?  The one that's as high as a level 27.8 Monk?  At level 27.8, your deflection skill will be equal to that of a level 27.8 Monk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While I can tank at 28, it's NOWHERE near my tanking abilities back when I was 20.  It's not really a valid comparison.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I used to go AFK to smoke a cigarette while soloing scarecrows at lvl 20. Just left it on auto-attack. It would really annoy the nearby group, specially when I would brag about it. </FONT></DIV> <DIV></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>I did get a nice reality shock soloing even cons in Thundering Steppes. I thought that if I could AFK while soloing a group green^^ scarecrows, then I would have no problems soloing a solo-even-con. I guessed wrong. It was a really sobering experience fighting a level 20 solo-even-con snake, and losing 1/2 my health and almost 3/4 of my power.</FONT></DIV>

[kennethh]

<DIV>Hello Gage, where drop the "Feysteel Cestii's"? thx</DIV>

[SomeDudeCRO]

I've seen them drop once in Varsoon's off a an ordinary bat or spider, but I lost the roll so I decided to go out buy some for around 5gp a piece.... they are lvl 34 weapons btw, I can't use them yet <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by SomeDudeCRO on <span class=date_text>12-13-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:45 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SomeDudeCRO wrote:<BR>I've seen them drop once in Varsoon's off a an ordinary bat or spider, but I lost the roll so I decided to go out buy some for around 5gp a piece.... they are lvl 34 weapons btw, I can't use them yet <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <P>Message Edited by SomeDudeCRO on <SPAN class=date_text>12-13-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:45 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yup, they drop in Ruins of Varsoon.  The Cestii of the Master drops in Runny Eye.<BR>

[Alarye]

<DIV>Gage, (And Everyone else I cannot remember) Thank you very much fro all of the great information and tactics.  I am a Lvl 20 monk on Highkeep and noticed the increase DPS right after I leveled.  I have never thought Monks were broke, I just hate it when the preists sphincters pucker up because I get hit really hard once in a blue moon.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just wanted to say thanks for the great information.  Never had a hard time soloing in my range but the information about keeping mobs in front was invaluable, I had never thought about that.</DIV>

[GangsterFi]

Monks are not broke. They just need work. My only problem right now as a tank archetype, is a few things. For one, everyone needs to understand all fighters are meant to be tanks. They are suppose to hold aggro and do melee DPS (which is not to be confused with combat skill DPS, like what scouts do), and take damage for the group. People do not realize this and I have had many clerics turn me down for groups because I was main tank in a pick up group, which is rediculuous because they just sit back LFG the whole time we xp. Once people understand this, perhaps groups will work better with a monk. IMHO, clerics are not my healers of choice. I would take a druid + shaman combo in my group any day over a cleric. Wards plus regens are really nice for a monk. Reactive heals and wards do not stack (unless they changed that recently).I think what this post is trying to say is that monks do not tank equally as good as plate tanks. You can sit here and argue with me all day and tell me that we do, but the truth is we do not. That does not make the monk obsolete. I am level 37, almost level 38, finally got some a full set of upgraded armor and some nice weapons. Also I got a good round shield. Equipment and skills make a fighter what they are. So, not all monks will tank equally. The monks with the best skills and weapons/equipment will tank the best. Because they are better, and their skills are more effective. I upgrade all my skills to APP3 when I first get them. Then I buy every adept I can get my hands on, which as of late, is not that many. Another example of how a monk will differ is I pretty much do not use crowd control in my groups. If you have an enchanter mezzing groups of mobs and you only gotta fight a few at a time, or 1 at a time, its not that hard. However, I just usually try to get a DPS group. 1 healer 1 plate tank (zerker), me, 2 scouts (1 being a bard) and a wizzard. With this kind of DPS you pretty much just mow right through about anything in a zone. Zerkers can hold aggro so well you dont really need CC. The AoE nukes + DPS kill everything so fast CC is pretty much pointless. Therefore, my role in this kind of group would not to be a main tank. I would get chewed up and my bones would be tossed aside. This is because sometimes we will be fighting like 15 mobs at a time. I just martial discipline the zerker (which basically means the zerker can use my deflection skills, which means he evades a lot more), toss a hate reduce buff on the healer, and then toss up sweeping crane so I can avoid most damage and not have to be healed. Bards add DPS to the whole group with proc skills and haste, then + one more scout adds even more dps (not to mention 2 evacs). Basically what happens is when we fight a group of level 40+ gobs in RE, by the time I /assist to the last 3 mobs they are all in red health and basically dead. A lot of times I don't even fight every mob, they die from the AoEs. Also, we will only run 1 scout and then 2 wizzards in the group as well. It works very well. So, if your group tactic is DPS then a monks role would be DPS, and not tanking. Other classes do it way better in this kind of tactic. Especially zerkers with their crazy ability to hold aggro. If you were using crowd control (which IMO is slower) and as a monk you only had to fight 1 on 1 with a mob then yeah, monks would more than likely do better (theoretically speaking) than other tanks. As long as you stay within your level range. Fighting ++ reds, I would just rather DPS than tank against those for holding aggro purposes and plate tanks are easier to keep alive. Unless you use the guardian + monk tactics I posted on another thread, then perhaps a monk could be a good MT for a raid boss mob. However, stealing the thunder from plate tanks is going to be rough, most of them don't even accept that monks are tanks. I got a plate tank in my guild who thinks monks are DPS and not tanks, which is also the general idea most other people have.So, really the matter at hand is not the monk not being able to tank, its more of not being able to tank equally. I will continue my monk and max them out at lvl 50. Also I got tons of lvl 44+ armor and weapons I cannot use yet. They all have good stats and good AC. So, again my monk will change at the level 40+ game. I never got my monk past late 20s in beta, I was busy trying other things. However, I got a feeling monks will just have it rough from level 20 to level 40 and the level 40+ game monks will get more love. However, we will have to wait and see how it pans out.

[Ralumen]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>If you want to be a very effective Tank use a shield...</P> <P> <HR> </P>not a monk. .........Dont believe me look at the updated this comming wendsay. And no i dont think monks are broken.we have a few weak points .. so work arround them i love my class if you feel inataquite then upgrade your gear or move on and stop whining.

[Kwonryu_DragonFi]

<DIV>It's a good thing! Shields has to go! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Mamasee]

I think what this post is trying to say is that monks do not tank equally as good as plate tanks. You can sit here and argue with me all day and tell me that we do, but the truth is we do not.Back this statement up with facts please.

[GangsterFi]

Try tanking with light armor against 15 or more mobs at the same time. Then watch a zerker do it. The results speak from themselves.

[Gaige]

<DIV>I have yet to see an encounter that is 15 mobs.</DIV>

[Mamasee]

Still waiting for facts....

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<DIV>I have yet to see an encounter that is 15 mobs.</div><hr></blockquote>ever hear of taking on multiple encoutners?

[xrippe]

<DIV>Do trains count? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>xripperx wrote:<DIV>Do trains count? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div><hr></blockquote>heh well if you kill themFor example, we will pull both groups of miners (approx 10 mobs with two possible nameds) and the roamers behind it, and the social next to it (which is another 5 to 7 mobs), and wipe them out in one encounter. Use DPS and AOE tactics with a zerker tank. We do it pretty effeciently actually. The only bad thing is they do not repsawn fast enough to make it worth while, so you gotta keep moving ahead. We can wipe all mobs from miners to the hulks and then run back to miners before a full respawn (the roamers usually respawn, but sometimes they don't). The zerker tanks way better than I do in situations like these, and proves that they do tank better. However, I'm finding out that secondary tank ain't so bad. I just DPS and peel mobs off the casters while zerker holds the rest. So far it works very well. Only really done it in Runnyeye and in RV, but I am sure we can do it other places.<p>Message Edited by GangsterFist on <span class=date_text>12-14-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:48 PM</span>

[Alarye]

<DIV>I have seen a single encounter with 15 mobs.  Go beat on the non KOS Antelope herds in Thundering Steepes, I think the max I have seen is 16 or 17 and to say the least because I am level 20, we got wiped.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mamasee]

GangsterFist:This does not prove that monks are broken.Keep in mind that the berzerker when it goes into its frenzy mode builds an huge amount of hate, this hate will work on all targets not just oen group. This is a huge advantage, and suggests that the frenzy ability is broken and not the monk. Replace the monk with a guardian/pally/SK, and you would see the same effect.

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Mamaseeta wrote:GangsterFist:This does not prove that monks are broken.Keep in mind that the berzerker when it goes into its frenzy mode builds an huge amount of hate, this hate will work on all targets not just oen group. This is a huge advantage, and suggests that the frenzy ability is broken and not the monk. Replace the monk with a guardian/pally/SK, and you would see the same effect.<hr></blockquote>Nope, sorry done it with a guardian too. Heavy plate mitigation + buffs + martial discipline + haste is way better all around than a monk. Especially when the zerker is using my deflection skills. That is what martial discipline does, it makes the target use my deflection skills, not theirs. So, the zerker is blocking/parry/riposte as I would. So, it makes their avoidance = to monk, plus their heavy armor and aggro holding makes them way superior.I am not saying monks are broke. Go read through my other posts. I am saying there is no way they tank equally over a plate tank. Holding aggro is sometimes not as important as taking damage. When you have 15+ mobs attacking you at once from all angles avoidance does not work really. I am not wanting monks to be uber, I just want them to be equal, just like SOE stated.Now with this patch on wednesday coming, I think monks are gonna be a lot better and possibly bridge that gap to equality.

[Mamasee]

What you are claiming in reguards to taking dammage has not been my experence. I would have to see dammage logs and equipment and levels, of classes involved. In addition you will need to run tests several times to eleminate any random number generator anomaly.It has been my experance that monks actually take less damamge then simulary equipped fighters, however they have less hitpoints to make up for that. Monks do however seem to take a bigger defence hit if the monster is not in front of them.

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Mamaseeta wrote:What you are claiming in reguards to taking dammage has not been my experence. I would have to see dammage logs and equipment and levels, of classes involved. In addition you will need to run tests several times to eleminate any random number generator anomaly.It has been my experance that monks actually take less damamge then simulary equipped fighters, however they have less hitpoints to make up for that. Monks do however seem to take a bigger defence hit if the monster is not in front of them.<hr></blockquote>Well I have not compared logs of mine to a zerker, but as it stands i am lvl 37 (almost 3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and my zerker friend is level 38 (almost 39).I have about 2k AC and about 3.2K HP fully buffed outzerker has about 3k AC and bout 4K hp fully buffed out.I have been killing the same mobs with him every night for the past 2 weeks finishing quests and getting access to certain areas and doing instances (like the throne room). I have seen him consistantly tank better than me on a very noticeable level. My weapons and equipment are pretty much all orange or better ( i got a green accessory or two, but all armor is yellow or better) so its not my equipment. All my skills are all app3 or better (since im a scholar). My weapons are actually better DPS than his, along with my combat skills. However, he can avoid taking damage and mitigate very well.Like I said earlier, this new patch coming tomorrow should fix a lot of this. I will be able to deflect and DPS at the same time when tanking.

[Nt]

<DIV>Having played a berserker and now going for Monk i feel monk tanks are much better.  I was tanking reds last night without a problem.</DIV> <DIV>Not to mention berserker damage is pretty ech and the usefullness of berserk is dubious.  :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV>Bloodlust is great though.  Too bad tranquil monks can't be lusty.</DIV>

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Ntuk wrote:<DIV>Having played a berserker and now going for Monk i feel monk tanks are much better. I was tanking reds last night without a problem.</div><DIV>Not to mention berserker damage is pretty ech and the usefullness of berserk is dubious. :smileysad:</div><DIV>Bloodlust is great though. Too bad tranquil monks can't be lusty.</div><hr></blockquote>To what level did you play your zerker? What level is your monk now? At level 25 and under as a monk I could tank fantastically but since the deflections skill caps were not going up with the monk leveling I ran into issues tanking at higher levels. However, this new patch is suppose to address these issues according to an interview with moorgard at the brawlers pit.

[Gaige]

<DIV>Well the 139/100 deflection was broken, you were never supposed to have more than max.  That is corrected now.  They are going to make evasion better though, since they are taking shields from us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play with guardians, berserkers or myself as MT all the time, it really isn't that much different.</DIV>

[Nt]

<DIV>Got up to 26 Zerker.  Tanking was easy, but Monks are just as good maybe even better in the right circumstances.</DIV> <DIV>Only 19 brawler but I was tanking things that my berserker was tanking at 26 with no problem.  :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Mamasee]

Well I have not compared logs of mine to a zerker, but as it stands i am lvl 37 (almost 3<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and my zerker friend is level 38 (almost 39).level is almost everything, if you were the higher lvl you would notice the difference in the other direction.

[Alarye]

<DIV>really weird question.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What does the Con of the Equipment matter?  I have seen some junk that conned orange to me (Same as my current armor) but I wouldn't be caught dead wearing it because of what it brought to the table.  I am sorry, I didn't look at the name of the gear ( And do not remember much about it) because I saw that my gear brought more to the table for me.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not trying to flame, but I have read a lot of post where people refer to the equipments color as a sign of strength, and as I understand it (I could be wrong), the con on equipment is directly related to the skill to use it.  I guess I am supposed to assume that everyone makes the correct choice in armor.  Whatever the right choice is, I am still trying to learn how to play.  I am a noob to EQ2, I mean I have only been playing for a little over a month and I have just dinged 20 a few nights ago and I am working on the Armor Quests, and no matter what my role is in the grand scheme of things, I still love this game better than EQ1.  Anything is better than grinding AA's.   </DIV>

[Alarye]

<DIV>Stupid Double post</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Alarye on <span class=date_text>12-15-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:14 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Alarye wrote:<BR> <DIV>really weird question.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What does the Con of the Equipment matter?  I have seen some junk that conned orange to me (Same as my current armor) but I wouldn't be caught dead wearing it because of what it brought to the table.  I am sorry, I didn't look at the name of the gear ( And do not remember much about it) because I saw that my gear brought more to the table for me.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not trying to flame, but I have read a lot of post where people refer to the equipments color as a sign of strength, and as I understand it (I could be wrong), the con on equipment is directly related to the skill to use it.  I guess I am supposed to assume that everyone makes the correct choice in armor.  Whatever the right choice is, I am still trying to learn how to play.  I am a noob to EQ2, I mean I have only been playing for a little over a month and I have just dinged 20 a few nights ago and I am working on the Armor Quests, and no matter what my role is in the grand scheme of things, I still love this game better than EQ1.  Anything is better than grinding AA's.   </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Equipment con lets you know how long before its gray to you.</P> <P>Orange has the most life left.</P> <P>Everything has a minimum and a maximum skill to use and to master.</P> <P>Take my new bracers: 215 to wear 245 to master.  I can wear at 43 when they will be orange to me and at 49 they will be white to me.</P> <P>Just because something is orange doesn't mean its better, only that it has longer life.  When my armor/items turn green I look for replacements because they will soon be gray.  Although as of now you still get AC and stats from gray armor, there is ALWAYS something better out there for you by the time something is gray.</P> <P>Remember that most dropped armor/items and quest reward items are stat'd.  Most crafted items are stat'd.  Vendor bought armor is NEVER stat'd.</P> <P>Its better to have stat'd green armor than unstat'd orange in my opinion.</P>

[Alarye]

<DIV>/agree</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Depending on stats.  Kinda pointless for us monks to get a +20 Int Item</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Zana]

<blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<DIV>Well the 139/100 deflection was broken, you were never supposed to have more than max. That is corrected now. They are going to make evasion better though, since they are taking shields from us.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I play with guardians, berserkers or myself as MT all the time, it really isn't that much different.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Curious, where was that stated that Monks are loosing shields?Thanks in advance, and rock on Gage! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[perculat]

<DIV>I could care less if someone perpetuates the myth that we are broke...  I like being on a server where there arent too many monks....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>last night I was in a group with 2 healers and a Guardian,  I constantly pulled aggro without even trying from just my damage...  when I did I would FD to give it back to him...   When he would get down to about 20% for whatever reason I would taunt the mobs until the healers did their job,  I did a way better job of tanking than he did ont he particular mobs we were fighting.  Grolven was one of them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I get class envy from my firends all the time...  my ranger buddy is the same level as me and cant even solo a white con when I am doing ^^greens.....   The DPS I put out is scary,  and FD makes traveling and soloing that much more fun...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I wouldnt trade this class for anything,  sure I cant wear plate and take damage like a Guardian,  but I havent seen one out tank me yet,  and I havent seen a scout out DPS me.</DIV>

[Nt]

<DIV>:smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV>While I will agree that we are great tanks we are not the best DPS there is.</DIV> <DIV>Those scouts are doing something way wrong, predators can do some very spectacular damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit:  Predators branch off into Assasins and Rangers =P  In my opinion rangers are better since they get faster recharging attacks from what I have seen.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ntuk on <span class=date_text>12-15-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:13 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<DIV>No, I'd say assassins are the DPS kings since they hit for 1500+</DIV>

[Sant]

<DIV>Any none bard scout will out dps a Monk if the scout knows what hes doing. Poison alone puts a scout above any fighting class. </DIV>

[Denset]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mamaseeta wrote:<BR>Back this statement up with facts please.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>GangsterFist has done a good job at keeping positive and explaining tactics that we can use to tank, while still pointing out the flaws that we still have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you believe he is completely wrong, how about <STRONG><EM>you</EM></STRONG> back up your statements with facts?  I think the burden of proof is on you at the moment, rather than on him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All you are saying is, "No, you are wrong, we tank good."  Where are <STRONG><EM>your</EM></STRONG> facts?</DIV>

[Crest]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zanarn wrote:<BR><BR>Curious, where was that stated that Monks are loosing shields?<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=5&message.id=1262#M1262" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=5&message.id=1262#M1262</A></DIV>

[GangsterFi]

I wouldn't call scout the DPS kinds per se. It depends on how you look at it. Its damage per a second, not maximum damage. Wizzards pack a mean punch, and their AOEs are fantastic. How about doing 700 damage to every mob in the encounter? Then doing that over and over. I would say mages have the best DPS in the game hands down. When I am in a AOE group, I don't even tank, I just taunt. Everything dies within seconds. Infact the wizzards will tell me to not even attack bodyguards on named mobs. They say its a waste of my time, just attack the named and let the AOEs kill off the body guards. I have heard about a ranger doing an HO for about 1900 damage. Thats a lot of damage on one mob. Personally I have had groups that could pull off 1300 damage HOs before. However, pulling off a HO, is totally a group effort and does require at least one of each archetype to be effective. Its not always worth it, but I can do an HO that adds +650 AC to everyone in the group. Thats not a bad buff. Scouts can do a haste one. Priests can do a power regen one. Mages can do massive damage ones. A good scout in your group controlling the wheel is a good thing. However, sometimes trying to use the wheel is well, a waste of time. Straight forward DPS is more effective at times.I like to have one scout in my group (preferably a bard, so the bard can buff me out with haste, power and HP regen, resists, and give me a proc) and then have 2 or more wizzards. AE nuke everything you see, and kill everything. Thats one tactic.I have also been in groups with 3 scouts. The DPS is insane and the mobs drop fast, however, in my experience not as fast as with the wizzards and using AOEs. Either way I am just happy with an effecient group. I'm really not an elitist and will just be happing getting xp, and not getting debt. The real trouble is finding players that can play well with you. I really can't stand to be in groups with bad healers. When I have to use compress wounds on myself because the healer is too busy spamming in /ooc, i usually tell them to shut up and heal me, hehe.As for tanking tactics with a monk, here goes one i tried out last night for fun. It seems allright. Whenever you have a guardian and a monk in the same group and you have a shaman and a cleric. Well, for one reactive heals and wards do not stack, so it can be annoying at times. However, this configuration works well and all spells actually work in line with each other. Have the monk main tank. have the guardian cast all +defense +deflection +intervine buffs on you. Guardians have one buff thats like an ultimate intervine and will pretty much absorb all damage for you. Then have the cleric and shammy buff out the monk. When the monk tanks the shammy can ward. Now, when the monk gets hit he won't take damage. The guardian will take damage because of his intervine skills in effect. Cast a reactive heal on the guardian, but dont cast any wards on the guardian. I had mentioned earlier about how my zerker buddy was tanking 15 or more mobs at the same time. Well with this tactic its probably possible as well. the guardian may have to hunker down though to fully absord all the abuse the monk gets heh.So, the monk has avoidance so they don't get hit that much. When they actually get hit, the ward absorbs. When the ward runs out and the monk actually gets hit, he does not take damage, the guardian does via intervine buffs. Now the guardian has reactive heals on him. So when he takes damage he gets healed. A lot of people were complaining how wards and reactive heals don't really work together. This is a way you can use both, and have it be effective.

[Sant]

<DIV>GangsterFist </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think you are putting out bad info when you tell people that wizards are the only DPS they need. For one if a wizard was to chain his hi damage blasts no tank on earth would be able to taunt the mob off of him and he will die faster then just about any other character.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Secondly your tactic is good for exp hunting in outdoor areas but it does nothing for people that want to do things like dungeon crawls. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lastly if I was to use your logic I would never pick a monk becuase they are not the best tanks.</DIV>

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Alarye wrote:<DIV>really weird question. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>What does the Con of the Equipment matter? I have seen some junk that conned orange to me (Same as my current armor) but I wouldn't be caught dead wearing it because of what it brought to the table. I am sorry, I didn't look at the name of the gear ( And do not remember much about it) because I saw that my gear brought more to the table for me. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I am not trying to flame, but I have read a lot of post where people refer to the equipments color as a sign of strength, and as I understand it (I could be wrong), the con on equipment is directly related to the skill to use it. I guess I am supposed to assume that everyone makes the correct choice in armor. Whatever the right choice is, I am still trying to learn how to play. I am a noob to EQ2, I mean I have only been playing for a little over a month and I have just dinged 20 a few nights ago and I am working on the Armor Quests, and no matter what my role is in the grand scheme of things, I still love this game better than EQ1. Anything is better than grinding AA's. </DIV><hr></blockquote>Sorry, I did nto see this this post before. Its simple. The con of the mob is orange, all your equipment is grey. You probably will get owned if you try to tank it. As a fighter having up to date equipment and up to date combat skills is a must. The higher level mobs get the harder and faster they hit. Therefore you need more mitigation. Though light armor offers very little mitigation every bit helps. When your armor turns grey its time to upgrade to have equipment more of your level. So when you fight mobs more of your level you are more on par with them. Think of it as a color match system. Does your equipment match the color of the mobs you are fighting? If its close then you have better chances of doing well against them. If no, then you will take more damage, get hit more, and probably have better chances of dying.I hope that makes sense.

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Santsu wrote:<DIV>GangsterFist </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I think you are putting out bad info when you tell people that wizards are the only DPS they need. For one if a wizard was to chain his hi damage blasts no tank on earth would be able to taunt the mob off of him and he will die faster then just about any other character.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Secondly your tactic is good for exp hunting in outdoor areas but it does nothing for people that want to do things like dungeon crawls. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Lastly if I was to use your logic I would never pick a monk becuase they are not the best tanks.</DIV><hr></blockquote>HahahahahaOkay, whatever. I have done this tactic in dungeons. I don't even need to tank, mobs die too fast with three wizzards in my group. I did the throne room instance encoutner in 8 minutes. I did both parts, including running to both doors in about 8 minutes. Cuz I had massive AOE damage in my group. The mobs average level was 38 in the instance. The bosses were like 42ish. Our average group level was 37. So, don't tell me I can't do that in a dundgeon, because I already have.You want proof? Go to the eq2players site, and look at most mob npc kills. Notice how they all have the same group configuration? 1 cleric + 4 wizzards. Its because with massive AOE attacks you DO NOT need to tank.Also, I never said that wizzards are the ONLY DPS you need. You are twisting my words. Second, I also stated I have been in straight up scout DPS groups, and it has also worked. Third, I have stated I am usually just happy with a good group no matter what the configuration. Finally, I have also stated, there is no be all end all tactic. Plate tanks are not always the best choice. I will say in generally they do a better job than monks, but there are instances and tactics where they are not. So, go live up in your tower and keep a closed mind, I state these things only for your benefit nothing else. If I wanted to give out false information I would tell you to let scouts tank over a monk. I would tell you to let wizzards pull with a heavy DD spell.Why don't you actually go play the game and try this stuff out before you tell me I am wrong.Thanks,GF

[Gaige]

<DIV>Gangster you are totally wrong on two accounts:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One mages are not the best DPS, scouts are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We were using a parsing program the other night with my group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Level 41 Wizard and me lvl 40 monk, both doing about 90ish DPS, the most he ever did was 103 DPS.  He has 4 adept 3 spells (including his AoE and ball of fire - hits for high 600s).  I was in my defensive stance also.  Plus, the mage class has a hard time when mobs resist them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second the color con system with armor and mobs has nothing to do with each other, or color matching.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its simply like I stated.  If you look on an item it has a mastery level and a minimum level.  The item is orange to you when you just have enough skill points to use it (say its min lvl 200 and you just dinged 40) and its gray to you when you have more skill than the mastery lvl.  This is because your skill in say light armor goes up as you lvl, allowing you to wear better items.  BUT grey'd items still give you AC and stat's, just not as good as maybe a better item that you now qualify for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've seen plenty of guys out there using grey'd equipment doing just fine, do I recommend it? No.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The con system for mobs is entirely different and does not relate to your items at all.  It relates to their difficulty as an encounter for your level.  Have I tanked a red++ just fine with some green armor pieces?  You bet.</DIV>

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<DIV>Gangster you are totally wrong on two accounts:</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>One mages are not the best DPS, scouts are.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>We were using a parsing program the other night with my group.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Level 41 Wizard and me lvl 40 monk, both doing about 90ish DPS, the most he ever did was 103 DPS. He has 4 adept 3 spells (including his AoE and ball of fire - hits for high 600s). I was in my defensive stance also. Plus, the mage class has a hard time when mobs resist them.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Second the color con system with armor and mobs has nothing to do with each other, or color matching.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Its simply like I stated. If you look on an item it has a mastery level and a minimum level. The item is orange to you when you just have enough skill points to use it (say its min lvl 200 and you just dinged 40) and its gray to you when you have more skill than the mastery lvl. This is because your skill in say light armor goes up as you lvl, allowing you to wear better items. BUT grey'd items still give you AC and stat's, just not as good as maybe a better item that you now qualify for.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I've seen plenty of guys out there using grey'd equipment doing just fine, do I recommend it? No.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>The con system for mobs is entirely different and does not relate to your items at all. It relates to their difficulty as an encounter for your level. Have I tanked a red++ just fine with some green armor pieces? You bet.</DIV><hr></blockquote>lvl 39 wiz frined of mine does 800ish dmg aoe. Spread that out across 7 mobs, 7 x 800 = 5.6k damage done to the total encounter. Now scouts are awesome dps, but their AOEs can't do that. So, when u got 3 wiz doing AOEs, + 1 souct + 1 tank +1 healer killing stuff, it dies way quicker than any othe group I have been in. Its just my experience.As for the color code system. Take off all your armor and put back on your quest armor which should be totally grey to you, see if you can tank then. I was making a simple analogy of how you can compare the con system, which is both for your equipment and creatures in this game. yes, you can have grey items, but if you have a full set of grey items you will get owned a lot faster than if you had items of your own skill level. That is what I was getting at. The person asked why it mattered and I answered it. So, therefore in certain perspectives we are both right. I don't see a reason you need to argue about it.As for looking at DPS of scouts vs a wizzard, I see it as total damage done to the encounter, not to a single mob. If you are fighting mutliple mob encounters, having three wizzards is a great thing to have. Is it the abosolute only way to do it? Hell no, thats a good way, I have personally done over and over across tons of zones. So, if you are doing more damage to the whole encounter you are killing the whole encounter faster. You guys need to lighten up. This is not EQ1, there is no one way tactic to do stuff. More damage vs the total encounter is more dps than vs one mob. Like I said, if you need proof go to the eq2 players site and look at most npc kills. You will see two patterns. The first pattern in 4 wizzards in a row. The next pattern is the 4 wizzards are all on the same server. Thats cuz the person doing it, is a 5 or 6 boxer. 1 healer + 1 tank + 4 wizzards. Its such an effective tactic you can do it while 6 boxing. The guy on the kithicor server is a 6 boxer, I have seen him in action. He has done this up to his mid 30s. Thats where I basically got the idea. 4 wizzards doing AOE spell on an encouter is way more DPS than anything else in the game I have come across.

[Blaze]

So Gage, you are saying that you were putting out just as much DPS as a wizard? In defensive stance no less?I find this somewhat hard to belive. Have you done any other parses?

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blaze79 wrote:<BR>So Gage, you are saying that you were putting out just as much DPS as a wizard? In defensive stance no less?<BR>I find this somewhat hard to belive. Have you done any other parses?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah we parse most the time.  I found it hard to believe to, but the wizard was the one running the parser.<BR>

[Blaze]

How do monks compare to other classes then? Like scouts, and other fighters? Are wizards just not that damaging? Or are monks just very damaging?

[Gaige]

<DIV>Wizards are good for AoE, like Gangster said.  Just his DPS wasn't much more than mine, and that is surprising.  There is a parser listed on the forums for download in the gamplay section I believe.</DIV>

[Nt]

<DIV>Consider resists i don't find it <EM>that</EM> surprising.</DIV>

[Sant]

<DIV>Sure Wizards are great AoE casters but there are many times where AoE is the last thing a group wants. Fighting in places like CoB or SH where there are mobs all over the place that will agro when you start throwing AoE around. As far as 4 wizards and a cleric its called farming and isnt really about playing the game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you look at the top damage dealers its all scouts. Mostly assassins becuase they have very hi burst damage. The real problem using the top listings for comparison is the fact that the have a limited number of tops. Most kills wizards most single hit damage assassins but they dont have TOP dps or most average damage per mob. So there is no way to use SOEs data to prove anything about DPS. </DIV>

[Mamasee]

GangsterFist has done a good job at keeping positive and explaining tactics that we can use to tank, while still pointing out the flaws that we still have.Densetsu:Unfortunately he has not, he claims that monks cannot take damage and compares himself to someone a level higher, second I question his reset when in an other thread he asks how fast are bare hands. I am inclined to believe he did not actually look into actual numbers, repeated several times, and is claiming facts based on a flawed premise. He made a claim I am asking him to back it up, he made a claim and the burden of proof is upon him. He has failed to do so, so I give his comments the appropriate credit.

[Zana]

<blockquote><hr>Crestus wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Zanarn wrote:<BR><BR>Curious, where was that stated that Monks are loosing shields?<BR><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=5&message.id=1262#M1262" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=5&message.id=1262#M1262</A></DIV><hr></blockquote>Thanks a bunch for the link.. that's great news! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[GangsterFi]

Mama-I don't quite see why you consistantly try to make an issue out of this. I explained my experiences of tanking. I also stated that a plate tank only 1 level higher than myself should not tank exceedingly greater than myself. They should be better because of the 1 level difference, but not by huge amounts. Not to mention your point is moot, as a lvl 38 monk I have tried the same thing with a 35 guardian and gotten pretty much the same results. So, level range really does not have that great of effect, unless the range of difference is great. I have just shared my experiences and the tactics I have used. The only thing left for me to do, would be to go purchase a copy of fraps, and then record both experiences, and then upload them so you can view it. Which is too much work for me to do, nor would I care that much to prove something to someone on an internet message board.You, have not backed up any of your statements with facts. You say monks can tank equally, yet you bring nothing to the conversation. I try to bring a consturctive critical observation of the monk class. No, monks aren't perfect, no they are not equal, but yes they are playable. I have stated many tactics used with my monk that have worked for me. Which is only to your benefit to try. I will not respond to anymore of "your wrong, prove it" responses unless you bring your proof to the conversation. I will hear what you have to say, and if you end up proving me wrong, then so be it. I will not make a big deal out of it. People can be wrong, I could be wrong, but I digress, these things I posted have been my experiences, both in EQ2 beta, and in EQ2 live. The monk has come a long way since beta, and I hope the avoidance tank is something of equal par to mitigation tanks all around. I post tactics to maybe help people figure out things, or improve on things I am currently doing. If someone else finds better combinations of things I do, then post it, I would love to try new things out. If you are going to sit there and just say I am wrong, or no you gotta prove it to me, then I will probably just ignore it.About the bare fists, there is obviously a scale based on level. Like a levle 40 monk should have 35 to 85 dmg with 2.0 second delay (fictional numbers for example only). I was asking if anyone has figured out the scale yet so I could compare it to weapons and such as a monk levels. So, if you know the scale of how much damage and delay increases as a monk levels I would like to know.<p>Message Edited by GangsterFist on <span class=date_text>12-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:51 PM</span>

[Vivic]

<DIV>Wan I think the problem is you are a GNOME!!! You should have been a human or half elf <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> . They get bonus points for sexiness :smileywink: .</DIV><p>Message Edited by Vivicka on <span class=date_text>12-16-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:49 PM</span>

[GangsterFi]

Well, a smart wizzard will not just nuke his heart away. If a wizzard wished to pull aggro off the monk he could out DPS the monk by wasting all his power by nuking. That is probably why DPS is similiar, the wizard was conservative with their nukes for group effeciency.

[Cora]

New, correctly spelled thread title <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[SeveianR]

<blockquote><hr>GangsterFist wrote:<blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<DIV>Gangster you are totally wrong on two accounts:</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>One mages are not the best DPS, scouts are.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>We were using a parsing program the other night with my group.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Level 41 Wizard and me lvl 40 monk, both doing about 90ish DPS, the most he ever did was 103 DPS. He has 4 adept 3 spells (including his AoE and ball of fire - hits for high 600s). I was in my defensive stance also. Plus, the mage class has a hard time when mobs resist them.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Second the color con system with armor and mobs has nothing to do with each other, or color matching.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Its simply like I stated. If you look on an item it has a mastery level and a minimum level. The item is orange to you when you just have enough skill points to use it (say its min lvl 200 and you just dinged 40) and its gray to you when you have more skill than the mastery lvl. This is because your skill in say light armor goes up as you lvl, allowing you to wear better items. BUT grey'd items still give you AC and stat's, just not as good as maybe a better item that you now qualify for.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I've seen plenty of guys out there using grey'd equipment doing just fine, do I recommend it? No.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>The con system for mobs is entirely different and does not relate to your items at all. It relates to their difficulty as an encounter for your level. Have I tanked a red++ just fine with some green armor pieces? You bet.</DIV><hr></blockquote>lvl 39 wiz frined of mine does 800ish dmg aoe. Spread that out across 7 mobs, 7 x 800 = 5.6k damage done to the total encounter. Now scouts are awesome dps, but their AOEs can't do that. So, when u got 3 wiz doing AOEs, + 1 souct + 1 tank +1 healer killing stuff, it dies way quicker than any othe group I have been in. Its just my experience.As for the color code system. Take off all your armor and put back on your quest armor which should be totally grey to you, see if you can tank then. I was making a simple analogy of how you can compare the con system, which is both for your equipment and creatures in this game. yes, you can have grey items, but if you have a full set of grey items you will get owned a lot faster than if you had items of your own skill level. That is what I was getting at. The person asked why it mattered and I answered it. So, therefore in certain perspectives we are both right. I don't see a reason you need to argue about it.As for looking at DPS of scouts vs a wizzard, I see it as total damage done to the encounter, not to a single mob. If you are fighting mutliple mob encounters, having three wizzards is a great thing to have. Is it the abosolute only way to do it? Hell no, thats a good way, I have personally done over and over across tons of zones. So, if you are doing more damage to the whole encounter you are killing the whole encounter faster. You guys need to lighten up. This is not EQ1, there is no one way tactic to do stuff. More damage vs the total encounter is more dps than vs one mob. Like I said, if you need proof go to the eq2 players site and look at most npc kills. You will see two patterns. The first pattern in 4 wizzards in a row. The next pattern is the 4 wizzards are all on the same server. Thats cuz the person doing it, is a 5 or 6 boxer. 1 healer + 1 tank + 4 wizzards. Its such an effective tactic you can do it while 6 boxing. The guy on the kithicor server is a 6 boxer, I have seen him in action. He has done this up to his mid 30s. Thats where I basically got the idea. 4 wizzards doing AOE spell on an encouter is way more DPS than anything else in the game I have come across.<hr></blockquote>Just fyi.. wizards dont ae for 800 dmg at level 39

[d-i]

I'm a 24 Monk and i solo Green^^, and even soled Green^^ named mobs, I'm highest in our guild playing on the fighter archetypeand im always the tank and we do red^^(full group) and orange and yellow ^^ with just me and 2 healers (24 mystic and 24 templar).

[kazla_pe]

My 2cp on DPS.Been running parses extensively during nightly grinds and since numbers are useless im not gonna post em, just my pure findings.These are parses on characters ranging from 40-45 in level. I wish i could get a full group of same level to parse on but thats [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] hard.Assumptions my damage is 1.0 dragon stanced with FBSS haste and weapons that con yellow to me. (Cerebus fighting sticks) Others damage will be given in factors where 1.5 would be 150% of the damage i deal.1. Assasins : 1.8 to 1.9 damage 2. swashys and brigands : 1.3 to 1.5 3. wizards : 1.3 to 1.54. dirges : 0.8 to 0.95. bards : 0.4 to 0.66. Bruisers 0.8 to 0.9 There are no bruisers my level on server best parse i have is a bruiser 2 levels below my bet is the do 1.1 to 1.2 when same level.The character level can vary as i discribed, also the quality of gear might vary. There are 2 other BIG factors power availability and mob lifetime. with an enchanter in group so power is unlimited assasins seems to shine less and brigs ans swashys seems to catch up. Also monks bruisers and wizzys come closer to eachother being able to chain attacks. The shorter the mobs live the more the assasin will shine also, having big [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] attacks with long refresh this is a given. All other classes seems to benefit from 1 min+ fights......but alas avarage lifespan of a mob is 32 secs for my groups.

[Denset]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mamaseeta wrote:<BR>he made a claim and the burden of proof is upon him. He has failed to do so, so I give his comments the appropriate credit.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>And <STRONG><EM>you</EM></STRONG> have also made a claim, to the contrary, with even <STRONG><EM>less</EM></STRONG> to back it up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>GangsterFist may claim he cannot tank, but he at least shares his experiences with tanking and what he has done to try and make it so that he actually can tank.  Just because you do not agree, doesn't mean he has presented nothing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You, on the other hand, <STRONG><EM>have </EM></STRONG>presented absolutely nothing at all.  Let's compare.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>GangsterFist: "I am having trouble tanking equally, I was in a group and we did this and this, and tried this and that, and at the end of the day, I could tank simply okay, but the Guardian could do it much better without all those tactics."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mamaseeta: "We can tank because I said so.  Prove me wrong."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are acting like a child.  "Wah, wah, you're wrong, so prove it!"</DIV>

[Mamasee]

Densetsu:I am not the one creating threads, poeple make statements and I ask them to provide proof, they have failed to do so. SOE states that all the fighter classes are suppose to be the dammage takers equally, people are makign comments to the contrary, wothout providing proof.

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Densetsu wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Mamaseeta wrote:<BR>he made a claim and the burden of proof is upon him. He has failed to do so, so I give his comments the appropriate credit.<BR><HR></blockquote><BR><DIV>And <STRONG><EM>you</em></strong> have also made a claim, to the contrary, with even <STRONG><EM>less</em></strong> to back it up.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>GangsterFist may claim he cannot tank, but he at least shares his experiences with tanking and what he has done to try and make it so that he actually can tank. Just because you do not agree, doesn't mean he has presented nothing.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>You, on the other hand, <STRONG><EM>have </em></strong>presented absolutely nothing at all. Let's compare.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>GangsterFist: "I am having trouble tanking equally, I was in a group and we did this and this, and tried this and that, and at the end of the day, I could tank simply okay, but the Guardian could do it much better without all those tactics."</div><DIV> </div><DIV>Mamaseeta: "We can tank because I said so. Prove me wrong."</div><DIV> </div><DIV>You are acting like a child. "Wah, wah, you're wrong, so prove it!"</div><hr></blockquote>I would like to clarify one thing before this goes any further. Monks can tank, I tank all the time. I tanked last night in a group and did fine. However, compared to a guardian, we are not really equal as far as tanking abilities. I tanked some +++ lvl 35 and lvl 37 raid mobs with one healer in a group of peeps about lvl 38ish a week ago. I did okay, but those raid mobs are designed to be taken out by two groups of level 28 to 32s. So, its not like that proves anything. In a sloppy pick up group a plate tank has an easier time tanking. A monk, on the other hand will have a hard time doing their job. I am level 40 now, and I will say this. From level 30 to 39 its harder to tank. At level 40+ monks do get lots better and after the built in shield patch I think we should have an easier time tanking.My posts were never stating monks can't tank. It was stating they cannot tank equally. I am hoping the built in shield will make us that much better. We'll have to wait and see.

[Mamasee]

Gangster,Again I would invite you to provde facts to support this claim. You are making claims that are in contrary to the official position, if you are indeed correct prove it then maybe things can be addressed.

[Craaq]

<DIV>Dude he's offering his insight and experience from playing first hand. What's all this proof you're wanting? You want him to write a thesis paper on it and do research just so he can prove what he's saying to one person (you). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here's some subjective proof. Full group with 25 berserker tanking gnolls in TS. I (25 monk) ask to tank for a few and I have to noticably wait a few more seconds in between fights for healers (2 templars) to power up. So went from A) constant pulling with berserker tanking to B) wait 10 seconds between pulling with monk tanking. Next time I'll videotape the stop watch running so you can see the seconds ticking by between pulls.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can I tank? yes</DIV> <DIV>Was it the most efficient given the group make up? no</DIV> <DIV>If berzerker left could I tank for rest of the night? yes</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Craaq on <span class=date_text>12-20-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:40 PM</span>

[Mamasee]

I want actual numbers, logged damamge results, from fights, compairing these logs to other fights.I beleive him to be incorrect in his evaluation, and he continues to spamm the boards with his opinions, it is time for him to put up or shut up.

[shaolen]

<DIV>Mama this isnt a court of law, calm down a little.  We are all just offering our opinion here, besides I dont think there is a way to provide "definitive" proof that monks can or cannot tank.   Some say they can, some say they cant as well as other classes.  I say so what?  Just enjoy the game, if monks are not the tank you thought they were going to be, switch to a class that meets your needs.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I consider myself sort of a Humvee instead of a Tank <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </DIV>

[Nt]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Craaq wrote:<BR> <DIV>Dude he's offering his insight and experience from playing first hand. What's all this proof you're wanting? You want him to write a thesis paper on it and do research just so he can prove what he's saying to one person (you). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here's some subjective proof. Full group with 25 berserker tanking gnolls in TS. I (25 monk) ask to tank for a few and I have to noticably wait a few more seconds in between fights for healers (2 templars) to power up. So went from A) constant pulling with berserker tanking to B) wait 10 seconds between pulling with monk tanking. Next time I'll videotape the stop watch running so you can see the seconds ticking by between pulls.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can I tank? yes</DIV> <DIV>Was it the most efficient given the group make up? no</DIV> <DIV>If berzerker left could I tank for rest of the night? yes</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Craaq on <SPAN class=date_text>12-20-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:40 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Not all monks are created equal.  I tank juuuuuust fine against Red ^^ with only one Templar.  *gasp*!

[DrrakoXhaoXi]

<DIV>Screw tanking make us Full time DPS =P</DIV>

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Ntuk wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Craaq wrote:<BR><DIV>Dude he's offering his insight and experience from playing first hand. What's all this proof you're wanting? You want him to write a thesis paper on it and do research just so he can prove what he's saying to one person (you). </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Here's some subjective proof. Full group with 25 berserker tanking gnolls in TS. I (25 monk) ask to tank for a few and I have to noticably wait a few more seconds in between fights for healers (2 templars) to power up. So went from A) constant pulling with berserker tanking to B) wait 10 seconds between pulling with monk tanking. Next time I'll videotape the stop watch running so you can see the seconds ticking by between pulls.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Can I tank? yes</DIV><DIV>Was it the most efficient given the group make up? no</DIV><DIV>If berzerker left could I tank for rest of the night? yes</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> </DIV><P>Message Edited by Craaq on <SPAN class=date_text>12-20-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:40 PM</SPAN><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Not all monks are created equal. I tank juuuuuust fine against Red ^^ with only one Templar. *gasp*!<hr></blockquote>Not all healers are created equal, Not all mobs fight the same, not all encounters work the same. Mitigation does not work against magic. Avoidance does not work against magic. Not all spells stack. The better the equipment/skills the better the class. The better group, the better out come.Just because you tank a red ^^ with one healer does not mean much. I tanked a level 46^^^ the other day, and I cannot say that I did any better than a guardian would, or a zerker for that matter. One instance does not mean a lot when you look at everything from a whole. Just wait till guardians get full CT and EF equipment, then we will see their full potential, as the same with monks. I tank just fine with fbss and nice weapons, and good armor, because im outfitted nicely. So, yeah not all monks are created equal.