Ideas to give the Monk a place in a group/raid! Need your ideas!!!

[Abi]

hi,as in another thread here, we discussed the situation about Monks' role in a group/raid.We found out that a monk is not the tank soe always told us.As we stand now, we do not have a defined role in a group! We just have those arguments "if you have a shaman, an intervene on you , one day before fullmoon and after 5o clock" we CAN tank.Why I post it here in a new thread you might ask? Well I just want a possible DEV lurk notice our ideas, to perhaps make the monk abetter game experience. I' d be happy if you all help here.My first Idea:Give the monk his "traditional" pulling role.some things he could use in this role:-give em ultraspeed for about 5sec., to pull things and dont get hit. (5times as fast as normal speed)-reliable feign death , so you can give the aggro to the MT if you pulled it to group/raid.-give em an unresitable ub0r taunt that just holds for 5sec, to pull off...well, some brainstorming and you can form the monk to some usefullness.Please dont flame this thread, lets just try to be constructive and helpfull. This is not a whinethread!!!

[Sant]

<DIV>I see two possible solutions, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. increase our defensive abilities, make it so that we are at least on par with other tanks.</DIV> <DIV>2. Increase our offense, if we are forced to be STs then damage is the only reason people will pick us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just dont see any other way of making us viable. We are melee so its either tank or do damage. If we are middle of the road in both then people will pick the classes that excel at there jobs not the one that can do either just not as well.</DIV>

[Kwonryu_DragonFi]

<DIV>There is another option than adding defence or offence, utility!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Combat utility that is!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If people feel that the Monk is lacking at the higher levels compared with others, maybe add more powers that can Stun and Knockdown.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Being able to stun (and knockdown) an opponent many times in battle will be helpful for the whole party.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A sweep that knocks a humanoid enemy with two legs down on the ground (forcing him/her to spend time getting up) will decrease that enemys dps alot. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The knockdowns may not work on non-humanoid opponents, but the stun effects could.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That adds alot to the safety of the group as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sant]

<DIV>The only problem with that is there are already classes that have all of that utility and a higher DPS. Im speaking of the swashbuckler. The can mez, taunt, snare, increase and decrease hate, port the group, sneak them into hard to reach area's(smuggle), and do serious damage. So giving us utility that they can get from a class that will do more damage as a ST leaves us were we started.</DIV>

[Abi]

but we are on the right way, keep the ideas going <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kwonryu_DragonFi]

<DIV>Well, swashbucklers sound like they are capable of alot of utility for the group, but lets say that you add alot of stun and knockdown moves for the monk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am certain that would be greatlydesired by a group, since it would be very hard for lets say enemy casters to use their spells when they are almost constantly stunned or knockdowned! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stunning, interrupting and knocking down a dangerous enemy at the right moment (before loading up a viscious Area Effect spell for example) could be the difference of victory and wipe! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the swashbucklers are the masters of group-utility, maybe the monks could be the masters of stun/knockdown/disorientation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Should be desired by a group, especially against a fast heavyhitting enemy.</DIV>

[Sant]

<DIV>Again swashies have knockdowns, snares, interupts, and mezes. So although it would be cool to give monks more of theses skills it still wouldnt make them more desireable. Since there are characters out there that can do it and still do more damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know I probable sound a bit jaded but looking at the skills and playing the different characters has really left me feeling like the monk has been shafted and that bothers me. I have always like the monk class in EQ 1 and I was really hoping that it would be good here as well. The problem is we are no longer a DPS puller, now we are a mediocre tank, damage dealer, utility specialist. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the fact is a generalist is never going to be desired over a specialist in a team enviroment. </DIV>

[Abi]

that's why we have this thread here Santsu <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> So give us some input ! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />What can be done???

[Sant]

<DIV>The main problem with avoidance as we level is that the mobs hit for so much that we become healer drains. If we are going to be tanks we either need to be able to avoid enough damage so that we dont become major mana drains for the healers  or we need some form of mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they decide to strengthen our DPS side then something like double attack would do alot to increase our damage output. If we started hitting twice a pulse with both weapons we would have a serious increase in damage. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Utility is nice and I think we have some decent ST utility but if we dont add to combat more we are not going to be wanted in groups. We are melee after all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heres the thing groups want 4 things really a Damage absorber(Main Tank), Damage dealers, Healers, and controllers. We are not the best choice for any of these catagories. To be usefull to the group we need to be  good at one of these 4 its as simple as that. </DIV>

[Kwonryu_DragonFi]

<DIV>Adding more (and longer) Stuns and knockdowns would surely make the class more desirable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not one stun power, but several. One with a short duration, one with a longer duration as well as knockdowns/interrupts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Reliable stuns and problem is fixed. You could even tank enemies that you would never imagine tank currently due to improved stuns.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A quick refresh, low damage attack. High chance of stun, duration of stun : Short.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A slow refresh, medium damage attack. Medium chance of stun, duration of stun : Medium.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Improved Thundering Fist stance (more regular stuns)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Improved Shoulder charge, Low chance of stun, High chance of Interrupt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sweep attack, cause Knockdown.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kwonryu_DragonFist on <span class=date_text>12-01-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:04 PM</span>

[Sant]

<DIV>It sounds like you want us to be melee versions of an enchanter, Thats not a bad idea, I dont know if it would work, but right now I would try anything that would make us more usefull to groups.  </DIV>

[Dovifat]

<blockquote><hr>Abian wrote:Give the monk his "traditional" pulling role.some things he could use in this role:-give em ultraspeed for about 5sec., to pull things and dont get hit. (5times as fast as normal speed)-reliable feign death , so you can give the aggro to the MT if you pulled it to group/raid.-give em an unresitable ub0r taunt that just holds for 5sec, to pull off...well, some brainstorming and you can form the monk to some usefullness.Please dont flame this thread, lets just try to be constructive and helpfull. This is not a whinethread!!!<hr></blockquote>No thanks - this "traditional role" ( Monks only have in EQ! anyway ) was designed for specific game mechanics. EQ2 has the encounter system - its just not gonna work out. As to suggestions: SOE simply have t o make up their mind about what Brawlers are supposed to be. I can tank well enough, I can deal decent damage - in full groups however a ( equally skilled end equipped ) specialist would be more useful. Given the highly group centric nature of the game there is a problem. If Brawlers are indeed supposed to be tanks, and everything we were told so far indicates that, some game mechanics changes are in order.- prevention of luck/bad luck streaks- static effects of deflection, parry, etc - independent from mob levelWith those two changes in place, balancing the tank classes would be relatively easy numbercrunching. This could be achieved in different ways, natural AC progression for brawlers is just one possibility. Just not another timed skill please, i got more than enough of those, thank you.If Brawlers are supposed to be something else, , well fine, just adjust the class accordingly and <b>tell us</b>.My personal fav would be a damage/healer hybrid, Monks direct healing, Bruisers distributing health per life taps - but thats not gonna happen and would be stepping on SK/Paladins' toes anyway.

[Kwonryu_DragonFi]

<DIV>More useful to groups is what the monk will be with more stuns/knockdowns at his/her disposal.</DIV>

[Cyngii]

<DIV>As an overview tankiing even con mobs and lower isn't a problem at all, but stuff at a higher level hurts.  With riposte, parry, deflection, etc.. .hardly anything seems to get through when tanking whites and lower.  When it does, it does damage... but more often than not I'm always at or near full health.  On yellow ++ however the shaman in group had to chain cast runes to keep up with how much I was getting hit.  I would say I get hit approximately 20% of the time fighting white or lower mobs and probably 65% to 70%... at times you'll go through periods of bad luck where it seems you get hit every attack round.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the big problem is you just can't up our avoidance skills (lumping all our defensive skills into one for simplicity <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) , because if you did, even and lower conning mobs wouldn't be able to hit you at all.  Monks would be able to solo blue and green melee group mobs.  You can't just make light armor have higher AC cause then you'de have druids and other light armor wearers running around with tons of AC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think one fix would be to modify the combat mechanics so mob level (within reason obviously) didn't effect it's accuracy and ability to completely avoid defenses as drasticly.  As it is now... 1 level is making a big difference.  Another thing would be higher innate AC, or AC bonuses.  I know people love EQ1 references, but as an example my EQ1 Bard had a 1.6 AC multiplier so if an item said it gave 10 AC, you would actually get 16 AC from it.  SO basically, in a nutshell they need to either fix avoidance or adjust mitigation... take your pick as to which would be better/easier to implement.</DIV>

[Craaq]

<DIV>Hmm if we're looking for monky ideas:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On my old mud, monks had an ability called 'acupuncture' which was essentially an limited duration over-HP buff that brought your hp max up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also there was a nervestrike that was a stun and would rarely cause a mob to explode instantly (instakills). I think Killbill2 stole this idea <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh yeah there was also a buff that caused you to use all your martial arts skills defensively (no offensive output) making you able to tank a mob.</DIV>

[Maligno]

<DIV>Hi,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Currently level 24 monk as of this post. One of the innovative system they introduced with EQ2 (innovative to me) is the tiered skill system. Skills start out with App1 to App3, Adept 1 to Adept 3, and finally Master 1 to Master 3. I am curious as to the relative performance of a monk both offensively and defensively to the other members of the Fighters class if all skills are master 3.  Will a level 30 monk with best possible equipment and master 3 skills be able to tank as well as a level 30 non-monk fighter class with best possible equipment and master 3 skills. In the same vein, will a level 30 non-monk fighter with full gear, master 3 skills dispense as much DPS compared to a level 30 monk with full gear, master 3 skills. </DIV> <DIV>The level I chose is random. My point is, in the end game, when fighters have master 3 skills, best possible gear, will there be no distinction as to the class effectiveness amongst warriors, crusaders and brawlers?</DIV> <DIV>Will skill mastery (app, adept,master) offset equipment? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All I know is that I am having so much fun.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[JojoTheDog]

<DIV>agree with dragonfist.</DIV> <DIV>Need more stats to put on the enemy.</DIV> <DIV>delay there attacks, weaken, dizzy, KD, etc, etc.</DIV> <DIV>U can keep Monks middle of the road in tanking and damage then.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But i still dont understand why a scout outdaamges a monk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A finely tuned fighting machine fights better than a guy that</DIV> <DIV>**mods 4 teh win!!1!**s in the forest.   Hmmmm, maybe i should of went scout.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is monk the lowest damage melee fighter?</DIV> <DIV>Since we seem to be at the bottom for the fighter tree, and</DIV> <DIV>everyone says the scout classes outdamage us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At least I outdamage my sorc in melee.... at least for now.</DIV>

[i3ry]

<DIV>I think all we need is a bit of an HP bonus over the other fighter classes. Other tank classes can predict how fast they are gonna lose HP on fights and so can the healer, but we can't because its all based on luck.   Sure, that mob I'm tanking doesn't hit me much, but 3 quick unlucky rolls and I'm toast easilly, and I know I'm gonna get hit a lot more than 3 times in a big encounter that I know a guardian or berserker could tank.  If we had more HP we would be able to last long enough to be realistic tanks, otherwise we're just tanking blues (who wants to group to fight blues?=p  ) or mana sponges.</DIV><p>Message Edited by i3ry2k on <span class=date_text>12-03-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:43 AM</span>

[Kwonryu_DragonFi]

<DIV>Well, we have ONE damage mitigation stance, and thats Stone stance at lvl 40. A bit long time to wait to get some kind of mitigation imho.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe if they added a lesser mitigation stance at earlier lvl (around 25) would make the monk are more long-lived fighter in battle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then again, didn't Moorgard say that deflection was bugged? Maybe a noticable difference will be seen when deflection is fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lowering cast time on Mend (near instant like in EQ1) wouldn't hurt either with a shorter recast delay.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would make the Monk sturdier in battle (somewhat). Not Guardian-sturdy but a little improvement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What else should a Monk bring to the table? Status-effects like reliable stuns/interrupts and knockdown.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have not seen those Freezing kicks in action so cannot comment on those(how long freeze duration/efficiency etc).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kwonryu_DragonFist wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well, we have ONE damage mitigation stance, and thats Stone stance at lvl 40. A bit long time to wait to get some kind of mitigation imho.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe if they added a lesser mitigation stance at earlier lvl (around 25) would make the monk are more long-lived fighter in battle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then again, didn't Moorgard say that deflection was bugged? Maybe a noticable difference will be seen when deflection is fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lowering cast time on Mend (near instant like in EQ1) wouldn't hurt either with a shorter recast delay.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would make the Monk sturdier in battle (somewhat). Not Guardian-sturdy but a little improvement.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What else should a Monk bring to the table? Status-effects like reliable stuns/interrupts and knockdown.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have not seen those Freezing kicks in action so cannot comment on those(how long freeze duration/efficiency etc).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Freeze is pretty short (the first one you get at 30) but the stun upgrade you get for shoulder charge (rushing bear) is pretty nice.</P> <P>Yes deflection is bugged, and considering we had a monk MT for hours last night depsite of that, it just makes me even more hopeful that we'll provide the role we are supposed to, tank.<BR></P>

[Kwonryu_DragonFi]

<DIV>Looking forward to Rushing Bear(reliable stun) then Gage-Mikel! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>More powers should be more reliable though, sounds like the Freezing Kicks-line mainly are to be used to interrupt casters. </DIV>