So, my monk is now almost lvl 29 and I see a huge difference

[GangsterFi]

Well, being almost level 29 I now have been fighting in the enchanted lands, orcish wastes, varsoons, nek forest, ect. I have noticed a lot of things about the monk which I feared would happen. I played a monk in EQ1, and in never winter nights, when I heard monks were going to be in the fighter subclass and be pure fighters (aka tanks) I had no problem with it. Some people didn't like that idea, and wanted monks to be pure utility (like in eq1).Well, SoE, you have really made the monk a poor character class in EQ2. First off, no they cannot tank equally. In higher level dungeons I totally get spanked by mobs because they hit for over 300 damage. Now, heavy armor offers mitigation from damage, so they don't take those full hits. Our avoidance needs to be advanced extremely, for us to be effective as main tanks. I have tried many tactics. Now, SoE also states that all tanks will be better in some certain situations. Yeah, monks out tank everyone else when you fight green or grey mobs. Then avoidance works like a charm against lower level mobs. Greens can barely hit me because avoidance always works better against lower level mobs.Feign death, really only has one use. To avoid a full wipe give your monk a feather (or marble or whatever it is your priests cast) to resurect the healer during a full group wipe. The devs said its also a skill to escape death. However, when everyone in your group dies, and you live by feign death (well when feign death works) you still get xp debt from everyone else. Then you have to see if you can't rez the priest and then get everyone else back up. If they did not die in a good place (like a mob on top of them) then you are pretty much going to wipe anyways. Now, if they let monks drag the shards it would actually be more useful, and make more sense. That way if a wipe did occur, the monk could at least position the fallen comrades into a safe position to rez everyone and try again. That would make the utility of feign death serve a little more purpose and actually make the monk more useful to groups.So, if I cannot tank at lvl 30, what can a monk do? DPS? Yeah a monks DPS is not that bad. I can pump out more DPS than any other tank, but I cannot tank. So, why have a monk if you can just get a scout, who has better AC, and more DPS than a monk. Usually I group with a guardian or a berzerker and I just DPS and do not main tank. Berzerkers can hold aggro the best by far and guardians suck at taunting. So, really the fighter classes are not balanced.This is a rant, but its justified. Having a 29 monk and having actually tested my monk out in higher level areas. My monk has a full suit of quest armor or better, and nice accessories (most are yellow or orange to me). So, its not my monks gear. Something needs to be done to fix this. Monks are already ignored, and the only groups I ever pick up are from guildmate groups.

[TheSnoo]

<DIV>You are not a tank...let me repeat...You Are NOT a Tank.  Don't even try to be one. A crusader/Pal/SK will outank you all day.</DIV>

[GangsterFi]

Thats the problem, they put us in the tank archetype. Also, actually the crusaders aren't that great either. I have been in several groups with them where they barely out tank me, and sometimes if they do their ac and ward buffs on me I do better. I think they have the worst defensive skills out of all the tanks because they can use magic.I have been in many groups where the pally/sk will intervine on me with their ac and other buffs and want me to main tank. It actually has worked out fine. However, that is only in that instance.So, really the monks are stuck between a rock and a hard place right now. Either up their dps so they can compete with scouts or make them able to be main tanks.

[swampthing]

<blockquote><hr>GangsterFist wrote:Thats the problem, they put us in the tank archetype. Also, actually the crusaders aren't that great either. I have been in several groups with them where they barely out tank me, and sometimes if they do their ac and ward buffs on me I do better. I think they have the worst defensive skills out of all the tanks because they can use magic.I have been in many groups where the pally/sk will intervine on me with their ac and other buffs and want me to main tank. It actually has worked out fine. However, that is only in that instance.So, really the monks are stuck between a rock and a hard place right now. Either up their dps so they can compete with scouts or make them able to be main tanks.<hr></blockquote>If you've seen crappy crusaders/sk/pallys tanking it's their equipment not the class. I tank the same as a guardian of my level, in some cases better because of my wards. You're pretty wrong about their defensive skills, monks and bruisers are far worse defensively than pally/SK. There are ALOT of BADLY equipped people out there right now. I've seen some level 20 SK's with 500-600 AC. That's horrid. I'm not even remotely "uber" and i'm over 1000AC easy at 22, at level 20 I think i was around 900.

[GangsterFi]

The sk i grouped with was level 28 and had all quest armor or better. So, he had more ac than i did. Trust me, I had this equipment debate a long time ago. He was taking about the same damage i was. Once you hit the level 30 range the game changes a lot. Honestly, berzerkers make the best tanks because they can hold aggro. I have around 1000+ ac unbuffed at my level and around 1500hps or so unbuffed as well. When I get full buffed out I can reach over 2k Hps, and around 1600+ ac which is not too shabby compared to other tanks. I just don't get any kind of mitigation, and the avoidance doesn't work the way they intended it to, to make all tanks, tank equally. Monks have the highest defensive skills in the game. My deflection stats are way higher than any other class for my level. I have 160+ skill point in deflection. If I use my brawler stance its even higher, so monks by far have the best defensive skills in the game, they just don't have any armor. Plus when fighting yellow or orange ++ mobs, avoidance becomes lame. If I fight a green mob it never hits me. So, yeah monk are way better tanks against lower level stuff, because we get hit way less against them.Guardians are good tanks, but need better taunts. Nothing taunts better than a berzker with that self haste buff and that blood lust (or blood rage, or whatever its called). Even when I use my instant hate increase taunts to taunt of a berzerker it doesn't work. In a good group you only need 1 tank to hold aggro while the rest DPS and heal/buff. If you add a Dirge to your monk, the monk becomes a very nice DPS addition to the group. Dirges give disease proc spells, so that everytime I score a hit, I have a chance of procing a 60 dmg proc. Add that to my melee attacks + haste from the bard + monk DPS skills = pretty nice DPS. However, this is not a who is the best tank debate so stop making it one. Its a discussion about how the monk needs to fixed to make them an equal tank. This is not EQ1, so if monks become good main tanks so be it. If not, they need dramatic DPS increases so they can compete with scouts for groups. I am not asking to make them the best tank, I am saying they need to be fixed to make them an EQUAL tank.<p>Message Edited by GangsterFist on <span class=date_text>11-29-2004</span> <span class=time_text>11:04 AM</span>

[SomeDudeCRO]

"However, this is not a who is the best tank debate so stop making it one. Its a discussion about how the monk needs to fixed to make them an equal tank. This is not EQ1, so if monks become good main tanks so be it. If not, they need dramatic DPS increases so they can compete with scouts for groups. I am not asking to make them the best tank, I am saying they need to be fixed to make them an EQUAL tank."Exactly. I'm level 25 and as I progress, the monk becomes more and more of a dissapointment. Everything starts going downhill it seems around level 22 or 23 or so. I'm sorry to see that at 30 the monk becomes even more inept and unwanted for groups.

[RyniNevertan]

<DIV>Gangster,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I completely agree with you, 21 monk here.  I have been having problems getting into groups due to the fact that I am a monk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But my favorite is coming into a group when it is forming, 5 people in it, and they say "OK we can start as soon as we find a tank...."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think, [Removed for Content]?  No my progession has slowed down considerably due to the fact that is spend most of my time soloing in TS, waiting hours on end to get into a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE has come up with some good ideas for the monk class overall, but we really need the damage mitigation addressed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ryni</DIV>

[Maligno]

<DIV>Hi,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am currently level a 22 HE monk. If I main tank in a group with other fighter classess, I request them to put intervene on me, the reason behind this tactic is that I am hit less by the monsters, and the distribution of hits amongst the other fighters will not put a lot of strain to the healer/healers in the group. I can then use my shout, area effect attacks (if no crowd controller in the group) to keep aggro on me.  However it is unfortunate to learn that from GangsterFist's experience, that the monk deflection skill does not scale well in the higher levels.</DIV> <DIV>I wonder if SOE is going to balance the scaling of AC based damage mitigation vs deflection skills, specially on the high level  (level 50) end game encounters. If it is already balanced, would it involved possessing adept 3 skills on brawler stance, martial focus or related skills/equivalent skills in order for monks to remain viable as a fighter class tank.</DIV> <DIV>Thank you for sharing your observation with us GangsterFist.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regards,</DIV>

[PaNiK]

<DIV>I TOTALLY agree that we need to be better at deflecting/dodging or more DPS or even both... </DIV> <DIV>I'm now a level 21(nearly22) Monk (Kerra) AQ3 - rest items are yellow/blue, so I have very decent and balanced stats with the slight advantage over agility. When I was about level 19/20, I generally group attaked ++ greens. I thought to myself and the groups I played with thought that - I'm a really good tank because I dont take so much hits and I dont need so much manna to be healed with and the DPS just makes it even bettter. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BUT when I dinged at level 20, I went to The Thundering Steppes, since most of the greens or blues didnt give much exp and I wanted more of a challenge. I waited quite a while before I was even accepted into a group. We had two Templars a wizard, and a rogue. The leader says; 'Just getting a tank for us'. I was quite annoyed and I replied that I was a pretty good tank and I dont require constant healing because I dodge/parry nearly all the attacks. So the leader instead got a summoner. We were all balanced levels (19-21) so there wasnt much arguments going on... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Off we go to the undead which were yellow++ or whites+. I pulled and tried to tank a mob of undead farmers. I was losing rapid health and I was very suprised that I had to be constantly healed because my HP was going down so much and so fast. I could see people in the group were getting annoyed because of the various 'That should of been easy' and 'We should of got a tank'. I was quite embarresed that I said I could tank when I cant tank for ****.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the same as in Storm Hold... Monsters hitting nearly all the time, and when they do I'm nearly dead withing a few seconds. I now understand that the monk is nothing more than beautiful animation. The DPS can be good but like gangster said, why not just be a rogue when I'm a useless tank... I'm extremely annoyed that monks are quite bad at tanking and the DPS does not balance it out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[GangsterFi]

I am 10% from level 29, have a full set of quest armor or better, have two 11-34 dmg dual wield weapons and still I find it hard to keep up with tanks my current level.I have used the intervine tactic a lot, and really its just more effecient to let the zerker or guardian be main tank and not really mess with the buffs. Even though a guardian can intervine, ally, and crusaders can ac buff and ward plus shaman ward plus shaman slow on the mob, plus chanter haste on the monk. You have to do all that to make the monk work feesable. Which is a lot of planning, otherwise we can skip all that and make the zerker or guardian tank and it works out fine.SoE needs to fix this issue, so I am not always LFG when my guildmates are offline.

[Lone]

<DIV>I posted this in another thread, but I think one of the biggest problems we are seeing in our ability to tank is that deflection isn't scaling properly.  When we hit 20, we gained a 39pt bonus to deflection 139/100 (approx deflecting like a level 28 monk at level 20).  However, as we go up in levels, that max deflection doesnt go up.  I am 24 now and my stats read 139/120.  Gangster, maybe you can tell me what happens at 28, but from the looks of it, at 28 we would have the same deflection as another tank class if they get the usual 5 points a level.  I would think for it to be working properly, our deflection should be 139/139 at level 20 and scale up from there, maintaining our 39pt advantage to deflection.</DIV>

[Hu]

"You are not a tank...let me repeat...You Are NOT a Tank. Don't even try to be one. A crusader/Pal/SK will outank you all day."Lol, someone stuck in EQ1 here ?SOE put Monks into tank class, so we are suggested to tank.What we need now is the ability to do so.And yes, i agree with the above posted (22 monk here).

[TheSnoo]

<DIV>I'm sorry but I disagree with you all. The Monk is part of the FIGHTER archetype, not the TANK archetype.  We belong to the Monk OR Bruiser part of the tree. Not every fighter is considered a tank.  Classes that can wear Vanguard will always have better damage mitigation than light armor classes...simply because of AC. Yes, I did play EQ1 but I don't thik the Monk is supposed to be like the EQ1 monk. What I DO know is that Monks should never be considered as tanks in a grp. We can handle some hits, and hell, even pull aggro off the wiz or cleric if need be, but I do not call myself a tank in the true sense of the word.  I wouldn't suggest you give up on your monk until you see what their role will eventually be in the high-end game.  Yeah...yeah I know, your lvl 29 which means little in the bigger picture of levels. Wait till you hit 40ish and see if the same thing holds true, I bet it won't. Most class roles begin to change around lvl 35 and transform into something different in the 40+ levels.</DIV>

[Dovifat]

<blockquote><hr>Loneni wrote:<DIV>I posted this in another thread, but I think one of the biggest problems we are seeing in our ability to tank is that deflection isn't scaling properly. When we hit 20, we gained a 39pt bonus to deflection 139/100 (approx deflecting like a level 28 monk at level 20). However, as we go up in levels, that max deflection doesnt go up. I am 24 now and my stats read 139/120. Gangster, maybe you can tell me what happens at 28, but from the looks of it, at 28 we would have the same deflection as another tank class if they get the usual 5 points a level. I would think for it to be working properly, our deflection should be 139/139 at level 20 and scale up from there, maintaining our 39pt advantage to deflection.</DIV><hr></blockquote>I'm not completely sure ( been a while ), but i think it hasnt always been that way. The 139/100 deflection look like another of those "take the easy way out" approaches, MMORPG Devs love so much once release is close ( and you are not a VIP class ). They do however not solve anything and in fact tend to cause more trouble than the initial issue. While I'm halfway content with the class as it is now, SOE appearantly still havent made up their mind what the Brawlers are supposed to be. The claim to be a tank "equal" to the others and the rather offensive skill list/somewhat lacking defensive skills just dont fit.

[Lone]

<DIV>yep Dovifat, thats what I am thinking too.  there have been numerous posts and arguments about whether we are tanks and it has come back that yes we are according to SOE.  this may not be the reality, but it has been quoted by a moderator on this board that we are indeed supposed to tank.  as it stands now, and from what GangsterFist is saying, is we don't have the ability to tank as we near 30, and this may be due to the easy out re: the deflection skill.  this means currently we somewhere between scouts and other fighters, as we have more hit points but less ac than scouts and lower also lower dps.  something interesting to see would be how well a scout of the same level and with comparable equipment tanks.</DIV>

[SomeDudeCRO]

According to sony we are supposed to be capable of tanking, and they are right, up until lvl 20 or so. After that the monk is decidedly incapable.Monks are useless as far as I can tell, there isn't anything we can do that someone else can't do better. I'm not sure if I'm going to quit EQ2 (I'm not keen on playing multiple characters) or just continue playing the monk in hopes they fix it by making us a more capable class. Give us something for crying out loud!

[ForceUs]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffcc66>I have unfortunate news for all of you. According to the Brawler class guide on this very website, monks are not intended to be main tanks, despite branching off of fighters. Here's what the guide states:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc66><BR> </DIV></FONT> <DIV>"<STRONG>Group Analysis</STRONG><BR>A brawler makes a decent main tank, but <EM><STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc66>suffers somewhat from his poor damage mitigation ability</FONT><FONT color=#ffcc66>. A brawler makes a very good secondary tank, however,</FONT></STRONG></EM> using combat arts like Defend to improve the tanking ability of the main tank, and at the same time delivering excellent damage." <FONT color=#ffcc66>(emphasis mine)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc66>The design goal of the brawler subclasses, then is not to hold even in tanking ability with crusaders and warriors. It is to off-tank, help the main tank do his job, and crank out damage. In this, we excel. </FONT><STRONG><BR></DIV></STRONG><p>Message Edited by ForceUser on <span class=date_text>11-29-2004</span> <span class=time_text>06:32 PM</span>

[Azud]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheSnooch wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm sorry but I disagree with you all. The Monk is part of the FIGHTER archetype, not the TANK archetype.  We belong to the Monk OR Bruiser part of the tree. Not every fighter is considered a tank.  Classes that can wear Vanguard will always have better damage mitigation than light armor classes...simply because of AC. Yes, I did play EQ1 but I don't thik the Monk is supposed to be like the EQ1 monk. What I DO know is that Monks should never be considered as tanks in a grp. We can handle some hits, and hell, even pull aggro off the wiz or cleric if need be, but I do not call myself a tank in the true sense of the word.  I wouldn't suggest you give up on your monk until you see what their role will eventually be in the high-end game.  Yeah...yeah I know, your lvl 29 which means little in the bigger picture of levels. Wait till you hit 40ish and see if the same thing holds true, I bet it won't. Most class roles begin to change around lvl 35 and transform into something different in the 40+ levels.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry Buddy...but your not only disagreeing with everyone else here...but your disagreeing with the very man who played a monk in EQ1 as his Main (AFAIK) and is the very one who told us ALL that Monk's can TANK.<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV>Moorgard wrote:</DIV> <P><B><FONT color=#ffff99 size=3>Won’t balancing become a real issue with that many classes?</FONT></B></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Class balance is always a complicated issue, but the archetype system allows us to manage it much more effectively.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Each class and subclass is balanced at the archetype level.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Every archetype has a main role in a group situation, and each member of a given archetype will be able to fill that role equally well.<SPAN> <STRONG> </STRONG></SPAN><STRONG><FONT size=4>If you're a fighter, you can tank for a group;</FONT></STRONG> if you're a priest, you can heal for a group; and so on. This is the beauty of an archetype system. </FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SomeDudeCRO]

That's not what we are arguing, do you see there where it says "decent" main tank? As you level, you aren't even a "decent" tank. That is the problem.

[Yinmaren]

<DIV>Wow. Just wow. Monks are exactly what they are in EQ1, plus more. Monks crank out DPS, have GREAT group skills, and are just a great thing to have in a group. If you are grouped with a berserker, BE THE MAIN ASSIST and have the berserker use intervene on you. <STRONG><U>THIS WAY IF YOU DO GET HIT, THE OTHER TANK TAKES THE DMG!</U></STRONG> Then, put your DAMAGE DEBUFF on the MT so he doesn't take hits as hard. THEN put your hate lowering buff on the healer and put yourself into a defensive stance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is it really that hard to work out strategy here people? Please tell me this: Do you expect enchanters and the like to have DD any were close to that of a wizard? Do you expect a summoner to have crowd control like an enchanter does? Do you expect an SK to tank as good as a guardian? Seriously, get over it. Monks in every single game have not been a main tank and I doubt they ever will be. Monks have always been there for utility and DPS. Just like bards from EQLive, we are not needed in a group, but when we are in a group, we help out ALOT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks in all games take many many levels to become power houses. Expect the same here. If you want to be a tank, then go play a guardian and quit complaining about the monks ability to tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. Devs have also said lots of things that ended up not being true such as instances and quests.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>I'm 10% from 29 and I have no problem getting groups or being MT, as long as I have a shammy and a good fighter to intervene.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've been tanking all the way up the levels, even Giants and the like in TS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love the Monk class.</DIV>

[Cora]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm 10% from 29 and I have no problem getting groups or being MT, as long as I have a shammy and a good fighter to intervene.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've been tanking all the way up the levels, even Giants and the like in TS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love the Monk class.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Why is a real tank intervening the secondary tank? </P> <P>I find monk dps to be substantial, and I often get 6th spot dps groups because people know monks do so much damage, can feign, and have some minor group buffs til higher levels... I wish avoidance was a little better, I intervened the hunkered MT on a ^^ once and got instagibbed in 5 seconds. </P>

[GangsterFi]

im 29 almost 30Did the named golem tonight in varsoons. Level 35 mob i think. His guards are all 33. So its all yellow ++ and he is orange ++. I tried all the intervine tactics (had 2 guardians in my group) adn I could tank fairly well. The truth is, monks can only tank as the MT and be effective when its in this scenerio.ALLY + Intervine + ward + ac + hp + haste + regen + dmg shieldMob has to be slowed + debuff Thats a lot of work to make the monk a MT. Try convincing that to a group, they will laugh at you. Hands down Im almost level 30 now, and heavy armor tanks tank way better. I learned sometthing totnight guarding buffing monk = crappy guardian.Now, I will admit that there is some tactics in the guardian ally + intervine (ally only lasts like 3 min, andhas a 2 min recast on it) but when you are fighting orange and yellows monks just can't handle it. People who say they have no problem with this stuff, I want to know where they are hunting. Thundering steppes does not even come close to counting. I was in runnyeye tonight and mobs hit me for 650+ dmg. The minotaurs at the entrance hit for 650 crit AE swing to the front. So, if you are a monk better get behind the mob with the scouts, cuz you cant take a hit if the mob ripostes.

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Yinmaren wrote:<DIV>Wow. Just wow. Monks are exactly what they are in EQ1, plus more. Monks crank out DPS, have GREAT group skills, and are just a great thing to have in a group. If you are grouped with a berserker, BE THE MAIN ASSIST and have the berserker use intervene on you. <STRONG><U>THIS WAY IF YOU DO GET HIT, THE OTHER TANK TAKES THE DMG!</U></STRONG> Then, put your DAMAGE DEBUFF on the MT so he doesn't take hits as hard. THEN put your hate lowering buff on the healer and put yourself into a defensive stance.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Is it really that hard to work out strategy here people? Please tell me this: Do you expect enchanters and the like to have DD any were close to that of a wizard? Do you expect a summoner to have crowd control like an enchanter does? Do you expect an SK to tank as good as a guardian? Seriously, get over it. Monks in every single game have not been a main tank and I doubt they ever will be. Monks have always been there for utility and DPS. Just like bards from EQLive, we are not needed in a group, but when we are in a group, we help out ALOT.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Monks in all games take many many levels to become power houses. Expect the same here. If you want to be a tank, then go play a guardian and quit complaining about the monks ability to tank.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>P.S. Devs have also said lots of things that ended up not being true such as instances and quests.</DIV><hr></blockquote>First off, guardians have the best invtervine buffs in the game. Secondly, why have a monk hold aggro when a berzerker could hold aggro 10x better than a monk. Berzerkers are aggro holding machines. They get that self haste + blood lust (or blood rage - whatever). Which makes it impossible to every taunt a mob off a berzerker. I have a guildmate who I let MT over me everytime we group, he is a zerker. In a good group the tanks main role is hold aggro and meat shield. A monk might be able to do that if avoidance worked.Again, wrong. Feign death is pointless. Save yourself, but you still get debt from others. And when others die have fun trying to get up and res the priest with a clickable because he died right in a bad spot. you can no longer drag corpses so you will have to res him right there on the spot. So, really there is no utility for a monk. Scouts have better DPS, and we cannot tank.Monks are the [Removed for Content] child class of EQ2, possibly the weakest. I preached the monk as a tank. I tried my hardest to make the monk good. However, its just not gonna happen.Tactics, I have tried it all. You name it, I have tried it. Infact, I am going to bed now after a long night of trying out monkish things to do in a group to make them good. I really had to try to hard with a guardian + a chanter + shaman to make it even worth while. Now, try getting in a group and convincing them to give you their full attention, and go along with your tactics, with XP debt shared. HAHAHA yeah right, they will laugh at you.

[kazla_pe]

LVL 33 monk I stand at 1500 ish AC unbuffed and around 2700 HP All my gear is blue atleast with most pieces being orange or yellow. I tank very easy for a group and my regular healers much prefer me to heavier tanks. Put Sweeping crane up and keep martial focus and martial discipline on yourself. I tank Runnyeye and the big golems in Varsoon with ease and with only a defiler as healer. The biggest problem is thet monks spike damage hard. When I see a big spike coming i hit face of the mountain to ofhold it and we are good. wards just rocks for us...shammys are best monk healers IMO. Only thing i can say is that Sweeping crane/brawlers stance(still trying to decide whats best) needs to be Adept3 also Martial disc and martial focus Adept3.

[Select]

<DIV>Im a 29 monk myself, and I pretty much agree with Gangster, monks arent meant to be MT's.  Yea, in antonica based zones, you might be able to pull it off, but once you hit the higher zones(zek, enc. lands, etc etc) you will get stomped down rather fast as a main tank.  I usually grp with the same people I have been for quite awhile and our guardian is ALWAYS the mt.  Im always doin the same thing, I throw up dragon stance, and get behind the mobs(lvl 30+ mobs you do not want to get in front of, or you gonna catch a barrage, and if a grp of mobs are pulled and they all decide to barrage, you will drop, or be very close to doing so) I know my place in the grp is DPS, and while I cant dps like a scout, I have the advantage of getting taunt off the casters while the mt is dealing with the other mobs and I can take more hits then any scout can.  When your fighting grps of mobs that can all stun repeatidly the mt, aggro becomes very hard to manage sometimes(i.e. panthers in zek), your job as a secondary tank becomes VERY useful for making sure hate stays on the people it should be.  Throw down your  defense and ac buffs and you can be a punching bag for the time it takes to get things under control again.  Monks are an awesome class if you know what your doing and dont expect to be the *ZOMG* super raid main tank. You are dps, and a secondary tank when things go awry. Maybe one day they'll fix avoidance and we can main tank, but as for now it aint happenin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rauko Dae</DIV> <DIV>29 Wood Elf Monk</DIV> <DIV>Faydark Server</DIV>

[Select]

<DIV>woohoo for double post. stupid computer.....</DIV><p>Message Edited by Selectah on <span class=date_text>11-30-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:19 AM</span>

[Silverbea]

<blockquote><hr>Selectah wrote:<DIV>woohoo for double post. stupid computer.....</DIV><p>Message Edited by Selectah on <span class=date_text>11-30-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:19 AM</span><hr></blockquote>Replace user and press any key <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[stfields]

<DIV>I'm very glad to see two monks speak up and give first-hand experience that there is still hope for monks.  However, do other tanks need that "Intervene + this + that" to make it work for their groups?   Is a monk with a Shammy using wards and a secondary fighter using Intervene, etc etc actually still a DPS participator?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess what I am getting at is would a group even bother to every say "You know, we could take that crusader... or we could grab that monk, but we'll need to keep ward up and have someone put Intervene up on him, BUT the monk will still dole out good damage."  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just see it as if there is plate tank LFG and a monk LFG, the monk will be passed over for the scout/nuker all the time.  Unless, that combination actually allowed the monk to compensate for his "decent tanking" with "good damage."  Otherwise, why would you take a monk ever?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you need a secondary fighter to let a monk be able to tank, then why not just let this "secondary fighter" tank and have it easier on everyone?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only viable "secondary fighter" scenario that I see is if you had two monks.  Maybe the secondary monk would keep Intervene on the main monk (and Tranquil Blessing on one mage/priest) while the main monk keeps up the defense+/offense- ability and Tranquil Blessing on another mage/priest.  </DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>We do decent DPS.  We can pull aggro if needed.  We can emergency heal.  We can lower hate.  We can boost the offense of the group.  We can do really good DPS with dragon stance.  We can FD and save full group wipes.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is plenty we can do that other classes can't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like I said, I've never had any problems getting a group or any complaints from the ones I'm in.  I RARELY tank but mostly because I don't like to, but when needed, I have.  Even yellow++ @ 28.  In fact, even lvl 32++ in the bottom of RoV.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I haven't tried as much 30+ stuff as Gangster yet, and he is very informed, but I still love my class.</DIV>

[GangsterFi]

The problem with the untility of the monk is that, Mend only works so so, and when mobs are hitting for over 400 damage per a hit it basically heals one hit. Which is better than nothing but I would never depend on mend to save anyone, its a hit or miss kinda thing. Feign Death, well it works allright (like 75%) but the problem is when a group wipes because of a bad pull or aggro in a dungeon, they sometimes don't die in the clear. There might be a roaming mob, or even a mob standing right on top of them. Now, if SoE made monks able to drag the corpses, it would be way more useful. Monks could FD with a clickable and pull the priest and everyone's corpse to a safespot and then res the priest, and the priest could then res everyone else. That would make it a ton more useful. Even if they made it, so you had to be grouped or in raid party to drag corpses.As far as the main tank goes. Sure, monks can main tank but its not anywhere as effecient as letting heavy armor tanks tank. Then at the same time they need all these conditions to tank well. Intervine, ally, wards, haste, mob has to be slowed. You can't always get that configuration in a group. Also, 99% of the warriors I know won't want to let the monk tank. I tried the whole buff out thing in runnyeye last night and it seemed to work really well at first. Then we got 2 mobs on us casting barrage. Both me, and the guardian (who was intervine on me) fell in HP really fast. He was soaking up my damage, but there was just too much damage being dished so we both almost died. He took over MT and we won the fight. So, even when you can get the monk to work as a MT, its not a constant. We had been killing these things all night and every few encounters I would get spanked and the other times I did okay (not great) where the guardian did the same tank job all the way through.Maybe once I hit a few more levels it will change a bit, I will be lvl 30 tonight. However, as it stands the monk is not as good of a tank as a guardian or a berzerker.

[eqtaka]

<DIV>This is a Good thread.  I've been reading Wong's threads since he's been in beta.  There a lot of good information here and a lot of sharing.  I won't comment to much on what's already posted, but I'll add something I have.   I found something on these boards a few months ago that was posted by SoE themselves.  As we all know the forums were wiped clean when beta ended, but I did copy and paste some interesting information about Monks and Tanking and what SoE says Monks are supposed to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Based on the information provided.  Monk are supposed to Tank and Tank well.  I'm not sure if upping our evasion is the answer here.  Upping evasion would make us invincible to blue con mobs no matter how many there are.  I think this is SoE issue with the Monk Class.  I suggest they provide Monk class with better armor perhaps.  I'm not sure if that would also make us invincible or not either, but perhaps deserves some looking into.  Perhaps Samurai style armour,  Bamboo laminated.  Not as heavy as steel plate but better protection and quite mobile.  I've seen martial artists in samurai armor.   They can do cartwheels and tumble just fine, so it can still go along with what SoE is trying to target Monks as.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is the quote that made me decide to go Monk vs Guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>There are many incorrect assumptions in this thread because people are relying too much on what they know of monks in EQ. Aside from looks and the carryover of some skills and arts that have the same names, our monks are considerably different.<BR><BR>While all fighter subclasses won't have the exact same hitpoint totals or damage output, those difference will be minor and will be balanced to add flavor rather than create disparity or undesirability in groups. There will certainly be nothing like the difference between monk and warrior hitpoint totals in EQ.<BR><BR>In our game, monks are tanks. Monks will tank in groups; monks will tank in raids. There will be situations where they are the preferred type of tank, as well as situations where another fighter subclass might be more advantageous. But monks will have all the tools to do the job while still having a unique appeal.<BR>============================<BR>Moorgard<BR>EQII Community Guy </SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>

[RyniNevertan]

<DIV>OK,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I spent 3 hours in TS last night and couldn't get a group.  93 people in zone, 43 (including me) were levels 20 23.  I had my LFG tag on the entire time, everytime someone would zone in, 22  pally LFG or 21 wiz LFG, bam they found a spot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't mind not being able to be the MT, I am perfectly fine with off-tank.  However, the problem with being a "utility" class, is that you don't do any thing really well, or at least not as good as the class that was designed to do that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My issue is that monks are having problems getting groups, I don't think that soloing all the way to 50 is going to be an enjoyable experience.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>..my 2 copper</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ryni</DIV>

[PaNiK]

<P>RyniNevertanks- i agree totally.</P> <P>In this game it seems that core classes (Fighter, Mages, Rogue, Clerics) are the only needed people in a successful group.</P> <P> </P> <P>Blanaced classes such as the monk are dreadful and uneeded.</P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Cora]

<DIV>They think monks will get the group killed, drag entire group FD flop through a raid instance or something and res the priest to skip content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>WoW nerfed the hell out of everything to keep my shaman from doing this.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Coraz2 on <span class=date_text>11-30-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:02 PM</span>

[GangsterFi]

See, I do not wish for the monk to be all powerful and the best main tank ever. I want them to be equal. I want the monk class to be a wanted class for groups. I want them to be useful in some way. Here is the delima though, how do you fix the monk?Better avoidance?Better mitigation?Heavier armor?More DPS?These are all good ideas, but how do you go about it with out making the monk totally uber. SoE did one thing right here, its much easier to give a class something than it is to take it away. So starting simple is a good idea, in a certain point of view. Now, if the avoidance were to be increased even more, then monks would be invincible to blue and green ++ mobs. They would never get hit, and could probably solo them. That would unbalance the soloability of the classes and would not be fair to everyone else overall. Incrase mitigation from light armor. Yeah, but again we face the issues of how close you can take this from medium armor or heavy armor. It might be hard to balance items and economy then. I mean a heavy plate breast plate should be worth more than a leather armor breastplate, just from the materials and the effectiveness each offers. Give monks heaveir armor? No, that would throw everything off. More DPS? Yeah, that could work, but then once the monk approaches scout level of DPS well it won't be fair to the scouts. Even though scouts get medium armor and have tons of usefull skills (group sneak, disarm, evac, ect).My suggestion as a possible solution. Increase AC, avoidance, and DPS slightly. Not much, just a tad here and a tad there. Give monks a natural AC bonus (like iron body training), perhaps a small natural haste increase to up the DPS and tweak the avoidance tables to scale VS mob level. That way avoidance would not be out of hand when it comes to fighting lower con mobs. Monks are currently sitting in the gap from scout to fighter, if they just had a little push they could cross the line one way or the other. There is no reason monks need disarming skills, sneaks, ect. Thats not really what a monk would be about. I think with small increases of these three things could help balance the monk out. Let them take a bit less damage, make them avoid slightly better (and scale it versus mob level), and maybe add in a little natural haste increase to increase DPS just slightly. Avoidance is nice, but when mobs are hittng me for 650 damage from a barrage attack it really drains my HPs. These increases could easily be implemented at the level needed, and as the monk levels progress. I am not saying give the monk increases right away or right now, but scale it out to even up with the rest of the tanks. So every level the monks natural AC bonus would get bigger and bigger to compensate for the huge difference of mitigation over heavy armor. I know the heavy armor tanks will wine becuase we get free AC is this happens. I will tell you one thing I have also noticed playing through as a monk. Heavy armor pieces drop left and right like its nobodies business. I barely see any light armor drop. When I do see it drop, I actually never see it because its so rare. So, heavy armor fighters also get more equipment drops. I can't tell you how many platemail items I have seen drop over light armor items. The ratio has to be like 50:1. Of course, I know that I have no explored all over the lands yet. Maybe monks will have a dungeon of their own, just like dalnir in EQ1. Cool dungeon that dropped crappy items for monks, and that no one ever wanted to go to.I actually train martial arts and I love the monk class, so I am trying to make them a good playable class. I will probably max my monk out at 50 just to see how they turn out, but I hope its not in vein. I supported the monk in beta and said pretty much the same things I am saying now, and well I got ignored. A lot of nay sayers out there are afraid of the monk becoming a good tank. All the guardians keep telling me I am not in the tank archetype, and I keep telling them, yes I am. All fighters tank, as stated above.Another thing, please ditch the genie look. The monk quest armor looks horrible. I look like I should be in a circus or something. Where are the shaolin robes? And the big bead necklaces?

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Coraz2 wrote:<DIV></div><DIV>They think monks will get the group killed, drag entire group FD flop through a raid instance or something and res the priest to skip content.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>WoW nerfed the hell out of everything to keep my shaman from doing this.</div><p>Message Edited by Coraz2 on <span class=date_text>11-30-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:02 PM</span><hr></blockquote>Easy to fix. Make certain mobs immune to FD. Not to mention you can already do this. Its called freeboot (or smuggle). Get a rogue and you can group sneak everyone down to your proper position.

[Cora]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GangsterFist wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Coraz2 wrote:<BR> <DIV>They think monks will get the group killed, drag entire group FD flop through a raid instance or something and res the priest to skip content.</DIV> <DIV>WoW nerfed the hell out of everything to keep my shaman from doing this.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Coraz2 on <SPAN class=date_text>11-30-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:02 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR><BR>Easy to fix. Make certain mobs immune to FD. Not to mention you can already do this. Its called freeboot (or smuggle). Get a rogue and you can group sneak everyone down to your proper position.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> [Removed for Content] scouts

[eqtaka]

One thought I had about Tanking higher level mobs could be skill related. Perhaps a skill like an Iron Skin or whatever SoE feels is a good name for a skill. It lasts as long as you have the power to do so. Perhaps like how Windwalk functions. This would have Monks to NOT use special skills in order to insure having enough power to tank that Dragon and taunt, therefore taking away some DPS and maintaining Class balance . No new armor graphics needed and they can use the same mitigation tables already in place.

[GangsterFi]

I was thinking make it more of a concentration buff. Making you decide which mode you want to do into for the monk. Tank mode, or DPS mode.

[Dovifat]

<blockquote><hr>eqtaka wrote:I'm not sure if upping our evasion is the answer here. Upping evasion would make us invincible to blue con mobs no matter how many there are. </DIV><hr></blockquote>The issue isnt so much the actual skill number of deflection/parry and all those other fancy abilities.- The whole concept of a luck based tank is somewhat flawed - chain wins or losses on rolls are unbalancing either way. - Unlike mitigation, the avoidance rolls are dependant on the level of the mob you go against. Here we have the core problem - how well someone can tank blues or greens matters little, as long as people are used to killing yellows of all kinds. SOE claimed to have fixed this two times in beta if i remember, couldnt notice any difference in game though. I dont have any knowledge about game coding, so i wont comment on how to possibly fix this. Having avoidance be a fixed value rather than the way it works now would however go a long way towards improving the brawler classes. Of course, solving the 139/100 deflection riddle would help as well - if the cap at lvl 30 was almost 40 points higher than it is now, things might look different. I however wouldnt hold my breath for a quick fix either way, SOE showed little interest in Brawlers' concerns in beta already.

[eqtaka]

I agree there won't be a quick fix here. Mitigation tanks have been with EQ for 5 some years. The avoidance Tank is brand new, and exciting I must add. More then suggesting this is better then that, I'm interested in this thread because I hope it gives developers ideas that perhaps they haven't come up with yet. I see a lot of interesting ideals from lots of Monks gamewide. It's really great.

[Blaze]

Well the situation is pretty disapointing. I find all I do in groups is attack the mob from behind with the scouts. Only I cant backstab. And I defintly cant tank with any kind of consistency. Doesnt seem very balenced.Hopefully SOE will one day fix this class, untill then I am rerolling a berserker.

[Cora]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blaze79 wrote:<BR>I find all I do in groups is attack the mob from behind with the scouts. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Ditto

[Sant]

<DIV>I started a swashbuckler and will come back to my monk when they have a reason to be in the game. If they up the damage so that we are a viable choice compaired to a scout I will play him, if they do something to make us better tanks. I'll play him, I really want to play him but I dont want to play a character that is a pity choice in any group. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our DPS is good but not worth taking compaired to a scout, our Tanking ability is OK but not worth taking over a Warrior. We have OK buffs but nothing to pick us for, All in all Monks are middle of the road in everything and no one wants average when they can have good. So beware ladies a new Swashbuckler is in town.</DIV>

[Yinmaren]

<DIV>Here lies the problem with everyone that is complaining about monks: You say you don't want to be the best, but you want to be equal making you on par with the best. Every scout class plays completely differently, every mage class plays completely different, every priest class plays completely differently, and every fighter class plays completely different. While you may want what is equal in your eyes, let us look at it from a guardian/berserkers perspective.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If a player chose guardian, they probably did this because they wanted to be able to take lots of dmg, and be able to wear lots of armor. They wanted to be completely defensive. They wanted to be the main tank in the group. If monks were put on par with guardians in tanking ability, guardians would become absolete and no longer needed. Monks bring much more utility than a guardian and making us tank just as well as them does nothing but make a class undesirable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If a player chose berserker, they probably wanted to be the same as a guardian but sacrifice a little defense for some offense. They wanted to do some dmg while still being able to be the MT. The same applies here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Same with pallys. Same with SK's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do agree that monks need a definite tone up in the tanking department, but I personally do not think it is any of the afore mentioned that should be tweaked. I believe that SOE should build on our skills more, however, here lies the problem with that. Adept 1 Martial Focus gives something like 15 to all defensive skills. Getting Master 3 of MF would make us an almost unhittable force for 30 seconds.. especially with our defensive stance. I think they should make MF a 1 or 2 conc abillity that is permanent for the group. This would make us more wanted in groups because of the added utility, make us tank better permanently, and it could stack with our other defensive abilities, however, in order to balance this powerhouse of defense out, the player would have to choose on whether less hate on the healer/dmg reduction on the MT would be more important (those would be made conc too).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tweaking allready given skills is the answer, not giving us more DPS or make our chance to evade more.</DIV>

[Sant]

<DIV>The thing is there is no good reason to pick a monk for a group. Sure we look cool but there are better classes for everything we can do. Scouts do better damage and have better armor. Bezerkers do as good a damage and have better armor. What exactly is the job of a monk. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OK lets say its ST but a swashbuckler has a tuant and a mez and a snare all better for a ST then anything a monk can do. We all know we are the weakest when it comes to tanking of the fighter classes, OK thats fine but if we are going to be alocated to the secondary Melee slot then we need to have something that makes us usefull. In eq1 we were great pullers and did really good damage but couldnt tank for crap, Here we do good damage but nothing compaired to what EQ1 monks did we can tank a little better but so what thats a last resort not a first choice. by making us watered down tanks rather then good DPS they have taken away the only thing that made monks worth having around. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want to play a monk I love the martial arts theme and Feign Death but if it means I have to solo or get pity grouped then I dont want it. </DIV>

[Blaze]

Yin has a point. Most plate classes REALLY dont want to monks to be able to tank. I have read the other fighter formums, and they think it will take away from thier jobs. Which is not true at all. Even if plate tanks were only 5% better they would still get picked first for groups. Because everyone always wants the best. Right now they are so much better that monks are not even considered tanks by many. My monk is level 21 and I have never, not once got a invite from a group that wanted me to be the MT. I am always in the last to fill, take anyone spot in groups. To give you a idea of how bad our image is. There are people that think swashbucklers with thier medium armor can out tank monks!(ill give you a link to the thread if ya want) Now I am not saying I belive that. But the fact that that compairson even exists shows we have a serious problem. Make me a real tank or double my DPS.<p>Message Edited by Blaze79 on <span class=date_text>12-01-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:07 AM</span>

[tkemo]

<DIV>I agree with monks not being selected to tank and its probably for a good reason.  I have been in groups that are fighting MOBs 2 to 3 levels higher than me and when I do take a hit from what we are attacking, because I cause the tank to loose aggro from my dmg output, I tend to take the full damage.  At my current level with buffs I think I get about 1000hp give or take, when I get hit for 300 - 400dmg from one hit, I dont think tanking more than one of that mob, or that mob and something else is even viable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now a paladin at the same level with good armor seems to have no trouble mitigating that same damage.  So I dont look to be the main tank, I feel I can serve other purposes in a group and the MT is not the role I usually look for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The other thing, I "START" groups if I can't find one.  Alot of people are so passive in regards to this.  Join a guild or whip out the /who all and locate the classes that are LFG always seems to be a bunch and get yourself a group instead of complaining that you can't get a group because no one wants you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Someone had brought up an interesting point in another thread about the reason there is no PVP in this game is to keep ppl from complaining about balancing classes for PVP combat.  I guess that is a moot point in regards to this post seems that people want balancing for PVE as well.  I suggest if you want to play a certain role in a group select the ArchType - SubClass that plays that role.  I guess alot of us are confused as to what our role is but it looks like we are a jack of all trades, good at a lot of things, great at nothing which I am ok with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by tkemory on <span class=date_text>12-01-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:18 AM</span>

[RyniNevertan]

<DIV>TK -</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It isn't that we are confused as to what our current role in groups is.  We are confused by the bait and switch.  SOE advertised this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All Fighters are Tanks...</DIV> <DIV>All Monks are Fighters...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem is that...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All Monks can't tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you read through the entire thread, us monk sare looking to be a viable playable sub-class.  We want to be invited to a group for our skill set, not because a group has 5 people in it and no one else is looking for a group at that exact second.  We aren't saying that we should be the MT, however even as an off tank if I manage to pull a mob of the healer, 4 hits at 300 plus and I am done.  The basis for the entire sub-class is great, we just need our skills to match the niche that we seem to fall in.</DIV>

[Cora]

<DIV>This monks are 'secondary offtanks' is bs, if the group needs tanking that badly, they'll get two guardians or berserkers since they are better at tanking.</DIV>

[Ashk]

<P>I have my Monk up to level 21 (almost 22) with 3 of the Armor Quest items and I'm really starting to dislike my character. I was under the impression that the need for the Monks to use light armor would be offset by their parry/deflection abilities, which definitely has not been the case. It seems like anything even con or higher always hits me, even if I running Staggering Stance or Martial Focus (which seems to do nothing when I have Brawlers Stance up) and both of those powers are Adept 1. Every time I join a group, people expect me to tank and I have to show them what will happen if I do - i.e hit Feign Death. They think its funny but I think its sad. </FONT></P> <P>So if I can't tank worth a darn, I should be able to do some damage, right? Well no. I have 2-3 powers that can do some damage right now - Rapid Swings (misses alot, 30s recast), Bruising Strike (misses a lot, 30s recast and damages me....ok?) and Thrust Kick/Flying Kick which both will net me around 65-85 damage against a blue con also with a 10-15s recast. All of my attacks are either Adept 1 or App 3 (which are all but impossible to find outside of a broker who is charging 4gp for them).</FONT></P> <P><BR>Lets take a look at my other bunk powers.</P> <P>Toughness - already gray and raises my AC by like 15 points or something so that doesnt help.<BR>Call to Arms - I really haven't noticed much of a boost with this active but it makes me feel like I'm doing something if I pop it.<BR>Martial Focus - Doesn't seem to stack with Brawlers Stance so pretty useless since I'd rather have BS going than keep popping MF every 30 seconds.<BR>Indomitable Will - Haven't found a use for this at all.<BR>Shoulder Charge - Never stuns anything and does like no damage.<BR>Thundering Fists - Never ever stuns anything.<BR>Mend - Doesn't seem to work on me and only does an 80 point heal every 5 minutes. Thats not even marginally useful.</P> <P>And on top of that, it keeps saying I'm raising by ability in Deflection/Parry but it never shows up in actual gameplay. I get hit just as much which is much too frequent. Without a heal or a ward, I can't even be hit by 2 even level cons without my HP sinking very quickly. </P> <P>So in short, I don't like my Monk at all, but since I'm at the same level as all of my friends, I can't really start over with a new char, so I'm kinda just stuck with him. Either make Deflection/Parry worth something against white/yellow enemies or increase our DPS, otherwise this class is just not very fun.</P><p>Message Edited by Ashkie on <span class=date_text>12-01-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:08 PM</span>

[Drakoli]

<DIV> <DIV>TheSnooch Wrote:</DIV> <DIV> <HR> I'm sorry but I disagree with you all. The Monk is part of the FIGHTER archetype, not the TANK archetype.  We belong to the Monk OR Bruiser part of the tree. Not every fighter is considered a tank.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV> <P>Im Sorry but I will have to Agree with everyone else on this. You are wrong about the monk not being a tank. SoE <U><STRONG>CLEARLY</STRONG></U> stated that every class under the chosen profession will be able to do its job equally as well as any other class of its type.</P> <P>So yeah Sony fix the monks deflection/parrying skills or do something about out mitigation because I for one dont want to be last on the list for grouping when im 30+ because I know that its just going to get harder and harder to get groups if it keeps going on this way.</P>

[GangsterFi]

So, after starting this thread, and then trying even harder to find a main role for the monk I have made some discoveries. I was with my guild in the bottom of varsoons fighitng level 33 -35 mobs at level 30. So they were all yellow ++ mobs. My guardian guildmate was with me. I was complaining about the monks being lumped into the fighter archetype and given certain skill sets that do not fit them. Like intervine (or staggering stance), is not a viable skill for a monk. I tried intervine once, I intercepted a bunch of damage really quick and died, really quick. So, there is really no point for a light armor tank to have intervine.Now, after discussing somethings, he offered me to tank and we would try out new tactics. These mobs can hit for around 500+ damage when they critical. So, it hurts. Our group configuration was, me (lvl 30 monk), 29 guardian, 25 shaman, 27 assasin, another guardian (lvl 26), and a druid (lvl 25). Now, the guardian cast sentinel, ally on me, and some other defensive buff. Then I started tanking, and I was taking pretty much no damage, the guardian was taking all my damage. If i added facing the mountain and martial focus + brawler stance (actually the upgrade to martial focus i forget what its called) added with the guardians ally skill my deflection was levels beyond oh what it should have been. I got hit on average like one out of every 10 swings or so with that much skill. Now, we fought a named, that hit harder and faster and the guardian let me tank again. At this point we were both curious of how well this tactic would carry over. Now this named hit hard and well we both dropped in HP pretty fast, which is bad for the healers to heal 2 tanks at the same time. The guardian out of instinct, hunkered down, which basically makes him a total meat shield and ups all his defenses but he cannot attack. Now, while the guardian was hunkered down I had to maintain aggro and tank. The tactic seemed to work. It worked pretty well too. Now, I just have to test it in different dungeons and against different kinds of mobs to find out how well it will work all around. The named guy we fought was just a melee guy, had no body guards, and did not cast. The named was like 5 lvls higher than me also, which was a problem I thought I was going to always have with the monk.I need to study the guardians skill sets more closely to make sure I am right about it. I think they can ally (+ deflection), sentinel (intervine), + another intervine skill (which i think stacks) and perhaps some others. Now who is to say that the guardian could not do that for a paladin, or a berzerker? Nobody, the guardian could do that for any fighter. Now, the question is, would it be worth trying against a big boss mob? I would try it to see how it works out, personally I am up for any kind of effeciency, but most people probably will not.My conclusion is, yeah you can make the monk an equal tank by doing this, but really the guardian is doing all the work, and taking all the damage, you re just holding aggro for him. If avoidance proves to be a vital factor in damage the guardian takes in combat, then yeah the monk/bruiser would be a great choice for this tactic. However, it needs to be tested more thoroughly to make it happen. Not to mention find a guardian that would actually let you try this, most of them probably won't let a monk tank. Luckily, I was with my guild and they were okay with it. So, everyone find a guardian and try this out, if it doesn't work that well for the monk and better with the berzerker then at least we found the guardians main role in combat. Which brings me to my next question, is that the guardians main role? The name of the class, "guardian", and the name of their skills seems to point that way, however I digress, we need to test this out more.So even though the monk may have some role in it, it still does not fix the issue at hand. The issue at hand would be to make the monk equal in some way or another. So, go out and try some things and then post them here, maybe we can at least find a way to make the monks role a bit more obvious for balance in the game.

[Ashk]

I don't think we need to test anything really. Basically you're saying in order to be a viable Tank or have a role, we need some other class. Thats no excuse. I could tank a lot of things if I had someone to just cast Ward on me all the time, but you don't. Heck anyone could tank with Ward on or with 2 healers healing you all the time. The issue here is not the Guardians role in combat, its the Monks.

[Abi]

well how about giving monks their "traditional" role? pulling?-give em ultraspeed for about 5sec., to pull things and dont get hit. (5times as fast as normal speed)-reliable feign death , so you can give the aggro to the MT if you pulled it to group/raid.-give em an unresitable ub0r taunt that just holds for 5sec, to pull off...well, some brainstorming and you can form the monk to some usefullness.

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Ashkie wrote:<DIV></div>I don't think we need to test anything really. Basically you're saying in order to be a viable Tank or have a role, we need some other class. Thats no excuse. I could tank a lot of things if I had someone to just cast Ward on me all the time, but you don't. Heck anyone could tank with Ward on or with 2 healers healing you all the time. The issue here is not the Guardians role in combat, its the Monks.<hr></blockquote>Maybe I wasn't clear. I was suggesting perhaps the monks role, is to be the guardians offense, and the guardians role would be to be the monks defense in an end game boss mob scenerio. They said all classes could tank equally but different. This combines both classes into one and takes the strengths from both, and their weaknesses offset each other.In a pick up group with two healers, not every tank can tank, even with wards and heals and regens. When you hit the level 30+ game and venture off to EL or OW, mobs will barrage you. Barrage is a AE frontal attack attack they perform that can hit as high as 650 damage. With light armor, and no mitigation, that hurts a lot. Add multiple mobs to the scenerio, it hurts even more. So even if you had the wards and heals you cannot just go in and attack stuff like that. you will die. So, when it comes down to it, I am behing the mob along with the scouts so I don't get hit by the frontal AoE attacks, or get riposted.

[Ashk]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Abian wrote:<BR>well how about giving monks their "traditional" role? pulling?<BR>-give em ultraspeed for about 5sec., to pull things and dont get hit. (5times as fast as normal speed)<BR>-reliable feign death , so you can give the aggro to the MT if you pulled it to group/raid.<BR>-give em an unresitable ub0r taunt that just holds for 5sec, to pull off<BR>...<BR>well, some brainstorming and you can form the monk to some usefullness.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Personally I was thinking that maybe they should have more reliable Stun/Knockdown attacks. Martial Arts is about balance, right? Well perhaps the Monks role should be to keep mobs off balance, moving from target to target knocking them around, disorienting them, stunning them and giving their team time to do some damage.  Some of their attacks are already focused in this direction but they just don't work reliably (Shoulder Charge, Power Strike,Thundering Fists, even Focused Strike knocks cons to their feet when hit with it).  These stuns/knockdowns shouldn't last half as long as a Mezzer can do, but they will do damage so its a trade off. Just an idea.

[Sant]

<DIV>Accually Swashbucklers have alot more skills of that sort then monks do. They have knockdowns, mez, taunt, snare, defense and hate buffs and debuffs. A monks utilitys are not half as good. A swashbuckler is a better mob controller then a monk. </DIV>

[Ashk]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Santsu wrote:<BR> <DIV>Accually Swashbucklers have alot more skills of that sort then monks do. They have knockdowns, mez, taunt, snare, defense and hate buffs and debuffs. A monks utilitys are not half as good. A swashbuckler is a better mob controller then a monk. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Well thats disappointing. We have most those same powers but ours just don't work very well heh.

[Ashk]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> GangsterFist wrote:<BR><BR>Maybe I wasn't clear. I was suggesting perhaps the monks role, is to be the guardians offense, and the guardians role would be to be the monks defense in an end game boss mob scenerio. They said all classes could tank equally but different. This combines both classes into one and takes the strengths from both, and their weaknesses offset each other.<BR><BR> <HR> </P> <P> </P> <P>No you were clear. You're saying that we need another class to make Monks viable, and I don't agree with that. I highly doubt SOE designed the game so Monks need to group with Guardians to be effective in combat.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>

[Yinmaren]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GangsterFist wrote:<BR><BR>Maybe I wasn't clear. I was suggesting perhaps the monks role, is to be the guardians offense, and the guardians role would be to be the monks defense in an end game boss mob scenerio. They said all classes could tank equally but different. This combines both classes into one and takes the strengths from both, and their weaknesses offset each other.<BR><BR>In a pick up group with two healers, not every tank can tank, even with wards and heals and regens. When you hit the level 30+ game and venture off to EL or OW, mobs will barrage you. Barrage is a AE frontal attack attack they perform that can hit as high as 650 damage. With light armor, and no mitigation, that hurts a lot. Add multiple mobs to the scenerio, it hurts even more. So even if you had the wards and heals you cannot just go in and attack stuff like that. you will die. So, when it comes down to it, I am behing the mob along with the scouts so I don't get hit by the frontal AoE attacks, or get riposted.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Exactly what I said earlier in this thread and others. The monk is a late bloomer that turns into a VERY VERY capable MT in almost all groups. Personally, I think a berserker works better than a guardian because it would give the berserker the chance to do some MAJOR DPS, helping kill the mob faster.<BR>

[Blaze]

I think GangsterFist fist is saying that the 30+ mobs take down his life super fast and he cant tank them.How does that make us capable?<p>Message Edited by Blaze79 on <span class=date_text>12-02-2004</span> <span class=time_text>05:59 AM</span>

[ForceUs]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffcc66>The prejudice has begun, by the way. Last night I got denied a group because as a monk I wasn't "a tank tank." I found it amusing, because among my friends I am the tank of choice due to my ability to hold agro. I am disappointed to admit, though, that when I let someone else tank and I intervene for them, I take way more damage than they do! I suppose this is because of our lack of mitigation.</FONT> </DIV>

[GangsterFi]

Well, here is something helpful maybe. I have stopped using all weapons pretty much, and am just using my bare fists. I know people automatically think its bad because they do not count as dual wield. Well, since i can punch for about 45 to 95 damage I don't mind. I think the delay on fists is 1.7 - 2 seconds. It seems to hit just as fast at the makoto staff which is 1.7 seconds. Now add in my new lvl 30 attacks and I easily out DPS any tank out there. My new kick can do up to 200 damage, and has a 30sec recast, and when it hits my opponet it freezes them for a second. I have many attacks that do over 100 damage on seperate timers. Now, if I only had haste, I would probably never look at using weapons.Don't get me wrong, I can tank in groups, and I do when I have to or when I am with the guild. However, I as a monk, do not tank equal compared to any other fighter. The DPS and avoidance does not equal out. Made a pick up group last night for xp, and the cleric i asked said he would join if I got a tank, so still there is some stigma being a monk.

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Ashkie wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><P><HR>GangsterFist wrote:<BR><BR>Maybe I wasn't clear. I was suggesting perhaps the monks role, is to be the guardians offense, and the guardians role would be to be the monks defense in an end game boss mob scenerio. They said all classes could tank equally but different. This combines both classes into one and takes the strengths from both, and their weaknesses offset each other.<BR><BR><HR></p><P> </p><P>No you were clear. You're saying that we need another class to make Monks viable, and I don't agree with that. I highly doubt SOE designed the game so Monks need to group with Guardians to be effective in combat.</p></blockquote><BR><BR><hr></blockquote>Have you tried it yet? Don't be so closed minded, it makes the monk a way better tank when a guardian buffs you up. Then when the guardian takes all the damage for you, but takes less than they would normally because of your avoidance, just means more effeciency. It does not mean you have to group with a guardian, it means its suggested. However, before you form your opinion try it out with a guardian you will see the results yourself.Also, martial arts is not totally about balance, but balance is part of it. Martial arts is about control and effeciency. Real fighting is not as pretty as kung fu makes it out to be. There are many moves you practice in kung fu you would never use in a real fight. Why practice them then? Well, think of it this way, its good training. Train full range of motion so you can develop short, fast, compact moves with release. Its all about building attributes.

[tkemo]

<DIV>I have been thinking about the post here and combining the monk with a guardian in a group.  It seems like this is a serious win win combination.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monk holds aggro with much higher dmg output than guardian.</DIV> <DIV>Monk avoidance will keep him from taking every hit.</DIV> <DIV>Intervene from the Guardian.</DIV> <DIV>When the monk is hit, the damage is absorbed by the guardian</DIV> <DIV>The Guardian will mitigate some of the damage because of their amor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What's wrong with this?  Yes its forcing us to have to work together more but having a tanking team seems to be fine if thats how its supposed to work.  We are all assuming we know all of the possibilities on how these classes work with or off of each other.  Maybe there are other things people have yet to figure out that would make us wanted in groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sounds like once people realize what this combination gets them (better tanking solution) they may wise up.</DIV>

[Kald]

<DIV>ok, i couldnt finish reading all the posts before i headed off to work today. however many of these posts have a familar, eq1, ring to them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>now, i wont profess to be an expert, as i have just turned 20 and begun my armor quests, but i duo with a shaman, and we have yet to need a group for anything. i think the reasons are all about the types of mobs you go after. if you are going after orange and yellow mobs...no i dont think a monk was intended to tank that type of encounter. myself and my shaman stick with the blue/even con mobs and we burn thru exp. and i find that those mobs the exp moves faster than trying to mow thru the higher level con mobs. i think a monk just has to pick their battles, a monk cant tank everything, but i sure know i haven't had a problem yet.</DIV>

[Blaze]

In your Duo are you talking about solo mobs? Becuase at 21 there is no way I could take out a even con^^ mob with a duo. Its like I am hemmoraging HPS.

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Kaldia wrote:<DIV>ok, i couldnt finish reading all the posts before i headed off to work today. however many of these posts have a familar, eq1, ring to them.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>now, i wont profess to be an expert, as i have just turned 20 and begun my armor quests, but i duo with a shaman, and we have yet to need a group for anything. i think the reasons are all about the types of mobs you go after. if you are going after orange and yellow mobs...no i dont think a monk was intended to tank that type of encounter. myself and my shaman stick with the blue/even con mobs and we burn thru exp. and i find that those mobs the exp moves faster than trying to mow thru the higher level con mobs. i think a monk just has to pick their battles, a monk cant tank everything, but i sure know i haven't had a problem yet.</div><hr></blockquote>Once you hit level 20, the game changes. Once you hit level 30 it changes more. Just try it out for yourself, and you will see what we are talking about. I can only assume once you hit 40 and 50 it changes even more. We will have to wait to see how the monk pans out at lvl 50.-wonglvl 30 monkKithicor server

[Kald]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blaze79 wrote:<BR>In your Duo are you talking about solo mobs? Becuase at 21 there is no way I could take out a even con^^ mob with a duo. Its like I am hemmoraging HPS.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>ya, i've taken out multipule mobs...in fact ive taken...i think 3 even cons (no arrows) at once</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and im sure i'll be seeing things change in the 20+ game, i guess i just didnt expect so much of a change that i would no longer be able to function as i have in the past, i figured i would have to learn to use my new skills to fuction as i want to...i'll have to learn as i level and get back with ya... lol, maybe i'll be hollaring just as much as some of y'all in 10levels.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kaldia on <span class=date_text>12-02-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:56 AM</span>

[Velor]

<DIV>Too many players are comparing this game to EQ1. It's not EQ1 so people need to start analyzing and accepting what this game is and all of it's nuances.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ1, your skills and abilities were for the most part completely independent of the people around you. It didn't matter if you had a tank next to you or a caster next to you, it had no influence on what YOU did during combat. You always did the same things, which for a Monk was for the most part hit Auto Attack and click a special attack or two every few seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This game is built around grouping and teamwork. Classes get buffs for their allies for a reason. The post that GansterFist made is a very good one because it proves that trying new things may open your eyes a little about your abilities as well as help develop tactics in this game. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Statements like "I doubt Sony intended for us to rely on other classes to be a viable tank" are quite humorous. Take a closer look at buffs that classes can use to enhance their allies abilities outside of just giving them haste and more HPs and AC (those 3 types constituting the bulk of buff types in EQ1) and you might see that this is EXACTLY what Sony designed this game to be. Right or wrong, love it or hate it, the game IS designed this way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The game is EverQuest 2, not EverQuest 1 v2.0.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Velorek on <span class=date_text>12-02-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:09 PM</span>

[Jin]

Welcome to the Everquest II Admin Section!>>enter settings for class: monkalt + tabWelcome to the Everquest Admin Section!Shift + downCRTL + Calt + tabWelcome to the Everquest II Admin Section!>>enter settings for class: monkCRTL + VCRTL + SEnterCTRL + F4It seems that everyone - SoE, programmers, and the "leets" have everquestitis. This is a different game. Monks were promised that things would be different. Monks were promised that they would be fixed in EQ1.The servers haven't been open for a month, and already we're running into the same stuff.Is anyone really listening? Do it right, or dont' do it, Sony. You made one hell of a piece of eye candy there, and the quests are fun and numerous, but for the love all that's Holy, do not screw my class again.

[Saraphi]

<DIV>The problem with this gaurdian+monk combo idea is that a guardian could tank it solo, he wouldnt "need" a monk around. Thats not equal at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What monks need are situations where it is apparent they will be the prefered tank, because if you have situations where they sorta could do better but a guardian does ok but better in most situations then people will always pick a gaurdian. Less thinking is good. Monks need to be good in sututations where guardians would suck. How is this going to be possible concidering the mechanics of the game?</DIV>

[Musashi-]

One Suggestion... use a shield!

[Ashk]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Saraphion wrote:<BR> <DIV>The problem with this gaurdian+monk combo idea is that a guardian could tank it solo, he wouldnt "need" a monk around. Thats not equal at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What monks need are situations where it is apparent they will be the prefered tank, because if you have situations where they sorta could do better but a guardian does ok but better in most situations then people will always pick a gaurdian. Less thinking is good. Monks need to be good in sututations where guardians would suck. How is this going to be possible concidering the mechanics of the game?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> Exactly. If a group has to choose between Monk or Guardian, a Guardians getting that invite.

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Ashkie wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Saraphion wrote:<BR><DIV>The problem with this gaurdian+monk combo idea is that a guardian could tank it solo, he wouldnt "need" a monk around. Thats not equal at all.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>What monks need are situations where it is apparent they will be the prefered tank, because if you have situations where they sorta could do better but a guardian does ok but better in most situations then people will always pick a gaurdian. Less thinking is good. Monks need to be good in sututations where guardians would suck. How is this going to be possible concidering the mechanics of the game?</div><BR><HR></blockquote><BR><DIV></div>Exactly. If a group has to choose between Monk or Guardian, a Guardians getting that invite.<hr></blockquote>Yeah they could, but you missed the point. Its more effecient when the monk is the main and the guardian intervines. Simply look at it this way. Higher level mobs hit faster and hit harder. Even though mitigation helps out heavy armor tanks, its not the end all be all situation. This is NOT everquest 1. This is a different game and relies a lot on team tactics. You have a [Removed for Content] healer or a tank that can't hold aggro, then you have a really good chance of wiping in dungeons.Can the guardian tank solo?Yes.Can the guardian + monk combo tank better than the guardian solo?Yes, its more effecient.I never said the guardian needed the monk, I said it works. I tested it out against a boss mob that was 6 levels higher than me and hit hard and fast. With the guardian casting all his defense skills and intervine skills on me, I was able to maintain my own very well. The guardian took all my damage for me, so he was the only one being healed, not me. All I needed was a ward and I was fine. Now, I also stated I have not widely tested this, but I am going to assume there is some content where this method will be preferred or even needed. How about if there are creatures that ignore armor and mitigation? Then this tactic would be needed for an effecient group.Again, you guys act like guardians are just the best tanks hand down for holding aggro, tanking, ect and they are the end all be all solution to tanking. Which is not true, look at the skills the class offers. Look at the skills other classes offer. Instead of just making assumptions that you are right try it out. I have actually tried this, you people who naysay it have not come forth and stated you have tried this tactic.

[Monomo]

<DIV>I played  a Monk on Eq1...and here are my 2 cents...when I was considering my choices for Char creation the ONLY class I was sure not to play was the monk...why? well the thing is in Eq1 monks were popular no t because they were great dmg dealers (spellcasters do better anytime), not because they were great tanks (warrior class is better meat shield) we were popular because we were great pullers and mob breakers meaning we could single pull a mob whitin a group of mobs. As soon as I read the link-mob thing it became aparent to me thet the traditional monk role was no more in EQ2 ...so what was the new Role?...well the DEVS said it would bethe tenking role, but being a veteran SOE customer I know what to believe and what not to believe. So from the huge majority of the post Ive read Im happy I did not choose to be a monk because its the same Eq1 monk but without the pulling thing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What can be done? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) DONT ASK FOR MORE DPS. Tanks are not damage dealers, if you want to deal dmg go scout or spellcaster. A tank that spends its power dealing dmg is a BAD tank, a Tank needs to hold aggro and take as much dmg as possible...dealing dmg is just icing on the cake. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Ask for a better avoidance system. But for things not to be unfair with lower lvl mobs and the soloability aspect that has been mentioned here, ask for avoidance to be % based meaning you have the same percentage of success avoiding a green con or an orange con. The armor of a Guardian or Zerker works equally well if the mob is green or yellow...thats what you as tanking class need. That avoidance gives you the same chance of surviving  blows as the other tanks. That will mean that you will take more blows of green and blue cons but less from orange and yellows. Right now green mobs cant touch you but yellows chew you up way to fast. Cant get something without giving something in exchange. It will probably hurt your soloability but will definitively improve your role as a tank. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Monomofo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-02-2004</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:40 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Monomofo on <span class=date_text>12-02-2004</span> <span class=time_text>12:42 PM</span>

[Ashk]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> GangsterFist wrote:<BR><BR><BR>  Yeah they could, but you missed the point. <P></P> <P> </P> <P>No we're not missing the point - you're missing ours. We know the Guardian can raise buffs on Monks and can also Tank solo. The point is that you're saying that Monks need Guardians, not the other way around. The Guardians can raise buffs on anyone, even another Guardian. The Monk shouldn't have to rely on a Guardian always being in the party to be making a viable contribution. And I wish people would stop saying "This isn't EQ1..." since I never even played EQ1, yet its pretty obvious to me that there is something wrong with the Monk class and it suffering penalties and fast growing negative sentiments that other classes do not. </P> <P>Our role should not be relegated to Guardian assisters, or X class assisters where we NEED to have a certain class combo in the group to be useful. Most people forming groups won't know what every class does best solo, let alone in conjunction with all of the other classes. If Monks had a clearly defined role by themselves, that would be a start.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Velor]

<DIV>Wow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, your belief is that if you aren't tanking, then you make no viable contribution to a group? No wonder you're disappointed in the Monk class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know I bring more to a group than that. Good DPS, extra offensive buffs, some nice emergency utilities as well as the ability to step up and be the tank if need be is alot of value in my book. And apparently, the people who invite me to groups feel the same way too.</DIV>

[Ashk]

<DIV>Our DPS isn't any more or even close to a Scouts. Our Offensive buffs aren't as good as any other class who has offensive buffs. Our emergency utilities (mend heals for 80-100 points with a 5 minute recharge) aren't very good either. Its a class of mediocrity.  Why pick a Monk when theres some other class that can do the same thing but better? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just want a Monk to have a role they excel at that so people will actually consider them as a first or second choice for a group, and not as the last choice when no better class is available.</DIV>

[Blaze]

It seems that the most of the people that are happy with the class play with regular groups/guilds. The road of the unguilded pickup group monk is a much harder one. When a group visits the LFG screen to get members they are going to choose the classes that would make the strongest group. They will pick guardian/berserker to tank.They will pick scouts and mages for DPS and utility.They will pick healers to heal.When would they pick a monk or bruiser? Never, not unless there are none of the better classes available. You will always be the last choice. This is simple logic. With no defined role, and nothing that we do perticually well, they will never be desired. I would probablly be happy to if I had a group of friends to play with that didnt care I was a subpar class.

[Velor]

<DIV>Here's a thought. Stop looking at things in a vacuum as to what is the most optimal. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You want our role to be defined. Well guess what. You just did and you didn't even know it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If a group wants to maximize DPS, grab an Assassin.</DIV> <DIV>If the group wants a tank, grab a Guardian.</DIV> <DIV>If you want utility or heals, look for a Defiler or Mystic.</DIV> <DIV>If you want the best offensive buffs, perhaps a Troubador is best.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now consider this?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is that Guardian going to optimize your DPS? No. </DIV> <DIV>Is that Scout capable of tanking in a pinch if that Berserker falls? No.</DIV> <DIV>Can the Defiler FD and rezz if the group wipes? No.</DIV> <DIV>Can that Troubador manage the hate list or offset damage to other groupies? No.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What does this mean? It means you're probably going to drive yourself nuts if all you ever look for when putting a group together is a Berserker, an Assassin, a Templar, a Troubador  and a Mystic, leaving room for only 1 other to join. I mean, if all that matters is functioning at the optimal level of play, then this is exactly what you'll need to do. I wish you luck with your style of play.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Meanwhile, a Monk can do all of those things and can do them pretty well. And it's all wrapped up in one single class, allowing a group the freedom to fill up several other spots in the group with how they want, not how they need in order to be optimal. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps THAT is the role of a Monk?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Velorek on <span class=date_text>12-02-2004</span> <span class=time_text>05:21 PM</span>

[Velor]

<DIV>I am unguilded and have been since day 1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My friends list consists entirely of people I have met and grouped with since around level 10. I don't always group with them and I continue to get invites from people I have never grouped with before, although I am slowly continuing to get to know more and more of these people over time and thereby increasing the size of my friends list.</DIV>

[Cyngii]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GangsterFist wrote:<BR><BR>I never said the guardian needed the monk, I said it works. I tested it out against a boss mob that was 6 levels higher than me and hit hard and fast. With the guardian casting all his defense skills and intervine skills on me, I was able to maintain my own very well. The guardian took all my damage for me, so he was the only one being healed, not me. All I needed was a ward and I was fine. Now, I also stated I have not widely tested this, but I am going to assume there is some content where this method will be preferred or even needed. How about if there are creatures that ignore armor and mitigation? Then this tactic would be needed for an effecient group.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I totally agree with what you are saying Gangster...  A mob can't hurt what it can't hit, and when it actually does hit, the damage goes to a PC that is intended to mitigate that dmg.  It's really no different than when Rangers would weaponshield (autoriposte all frontal melee attacks) tank hard hitting named mobs in EQ1.  This could be a little hard to get implemented in a pickup group, but it's definitely a sweet strategy.  Just seems kinda rough that this is the only way we can tank from the upper 20s upward (from what it sounds like) for even normal "Group" mobs.<BR>

[Blaze]

Perhaps that is what a monks role is today, but that is sure not what I signed up for. The monk was advertised as a avoidence based martial arts tank. And thats what I want to to. I want to tank.Now I dont need to be the best tank. I just want to BE a tank. Right now monks are not tanks to 90% of people. Monks are never invited to groups to be MT. Even if there are no other tanks around. I want a marginal increase to our tanking. Monks can be on the bottom of the list of tanks thats fine. But please atleast put us on that list

[GangsterFi]

Okay, I do not know the level of everyone's monk but here is what I can do at lvl 30.I don't use any weapons really either. I usually try to get haste and fists it seems more DPS that way.My fists hit for 45 - 95 dmg per a hit. Average hit is around mid 60s to mid 70s is average hit scored.I have 6 skills that hit for 80 to 125, 1 that hits for 135 to 165, and 1 that hits for around 200, then add in my average melee damage from my fists and I got decent DPS, and yes that DPS can sometimes even reach scout level. Now scouts will hit for more total damage, but at hit at a slower rate. So, DPS probably is not extremely different in the end of the fight. The scout will still do more, but its not like it makes an extreme difference.Now, I can do about 1k damage in about 8 to 10 seconds. Now if I taunt while doing that I can hold aggro pretty well. Even a berzerker has had problems taunting after I do that. So, I can out DPS and out aggro a guardian. Add in intervine from any tank (they all have them, guardians have the best) it helps a ton. Add in a ward and a healer it helps out. If someone can haste me and slow the mob it helps out. So, there are tactics to make the monk work. We don't necesarily need guardians to do this, we just need some help from the group. Which, IMO, is how SOE intended, they designed the game to make all the classes rely on each other. No, the monk does not need a guardian, paladin, zerker, whatever to buff them out. However, if they do, it works. There are obviously tons of class combos you can do in groups, I merely mentioned one.

[Blaze]

If you are using your fists. Can you also equip a shield? You only punch with one fist anyway. Would using a sheild offer any noticable difference in monk tanking?

[Yinmaren]

<DIV>The main thing everyone thinks that is completely wrong is that THIS is going to be like EQLive. Take a look at the PSX EQ game. Is it ANYTHING like EQLive? Nope. Expect some things to be the same, but the majority of it WILL be different.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks are intended to do two things: DPS and support. We aren't as much DPS as a scout, we aren't as much support as a Bard. We are simply an average class that when in a group can make the group 3 times as efficient. I don't see why everyone is complaining about how monks NEED/HAVE to have a big tank to help them tank as it is just like saying a Cleric needs a big tank to help them kill. No crap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How many times has SOE said one thing and meant the other? Dozens of times. Just because they say something is going to be a certain way, does not mean that they are that way. SOE announced that instances would only be used in cases of emergency (I.E. one crashes), however, we still see them. I find it very odd that the majority of people do not look at these things and think "Hmm.. judging by how EQLive was.. and the other things they have said that is completely untrue.... maybe they lied about Monks and instead of complaining about my class I should start a new one/get over it? Yeah.. sounds like a good idea!"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks need a slight tweaking in our defensive abilities, possibly making a sort of flexible evasion system that is class specific for monks. Just like in real life, if you are a martial artists and are fighting something faster/stronger/better than you, you will be hit more often, however, you wouldn't get hit as much as a regular guy.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Our evasion skills should be scaled based on what con of mob we are fighting.</DIV>

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Blaze79 wrote:If you are using your fists. Can you also equip a shield? You only punch with one fist anyway. Would using a sheild offer any noticable difference in monk tanking?<hr></blockquote>Monks cannot use shields. You can use your Kharmic focus and face the mountain buffs to up your avoidance and ac, along with your defensive stance.

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Yinmaren wrote:<DIV>The main thing everyone thinks that is completely wrong is that THIS is going to be like EQLive. Take a look at the PSX EQ game. Is it ANYTHING like EQLive? Nope. Expect some things to be the same, but the majority of it WILL be different.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>Monks are intended to do two things: DPS and support. We aren't as much DPS as a scout, we aren't as much support as a Bard. We are simply an average class that when in a group can make the group 3 times as efficient. I don't see why everyone is complaining about how monks NEED/HAVE to have a big tank to help them tank as it is just like saying a Cleric needs a big tank to help them kill. No crap.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>How many times has SOE said one thing and meant the other? Dozens of times. Just because they say something is going to be a certain way, does not mean that they are that way. SOE announced that instances would only be used in cases of emergency (I.E. one crashes), however, we still see them. I find it very odd that the majority of people do not look at these things and think "Hmm.. judging by how EQLive was.. and the other things they have said that is completely untrue.... maybe they lied about Monks and instead of complaining about my class I should start a new one/get over it? Yeah.. sounds like a good idea!"</div><DIV> </div><DIV>Monks need a slight tweaking in our defensive abilities, possibly making a sort of flexible evasion system that is class specific for monks. Just like in real life, if you are a martial artists and are fighting something faster/stronger/better than you, you will be hit more often, however, you wouldn't get hit as much as a regular guy.</div><DIV><BR>Our evasion skills should be scaled based on what con of mob we are fighting.</div><hr></blockquote>I see your point, but making a class jack of all traits master of none is well bad for the monk. People will be elitist, and not want the monk in their group. I totally agree with you that SOE flip flops on what it states and what is actually in the game. I mean rangers can kite, and I thought kiting was no longer part of the game. Anyways, that is neither here nor there. Now comparing how the game's core was designed versus technical problems is not the same debate. Instancing was made to relieve stress from zones and reduce lag, it original design was to bring back up a zone if it crashed, or createa new on if one crashed. Now, how SOE designed EQ2, was at the archetype level. Each subclass of one peticular archetype was to do its job equally as good as any other from the same archetype. This holds truth with the priest class. Some people are elitist and prefer clerics over any other priest. Truth be told, I have never had a problem with any subclass as long as they could do their job properly. And I am a monk, I need lots of healing. So, this holds true to what SOE stated. All priests can heal equally.Now, all fighers are suppose to do their job equally but differently. This does not hold true at the moment. I cannot speak for end game level 50 content, but in the mid game content the monk lacks.All I am gonna suggest at this point, is to just try some new tactics and see if it works. Quit nay saying it and go try it. Quit being all theory and no action. Just go out and try different things. If something you find works well, post it here, I am curious to see what else the monk is capable of.

[OrladinHolybla]

<DIV>After playing a monk to 34 in beta, and playing one right now at 25, id have to say we can tank just as effectively as any plate tank. In beta I was easily able to tank as well as any plate tank, even with the crappy heals back then. Now with heals much better, its easier to tank as a monk. The most important thing though, is all tanks tank better in certain situations. If you have a cleric as healer, plate will tank better as the reactionary heals are best for them, however if you have a shaman, monk's avoidance works best with their wards and slow. I tank very well at the moment, and never have a problem getting a group even outside of guild. I can tank, or I can fill a good DPS role and help the MT tank better. One thing to remember, monks are pretty much top for holding aggro on a single mob (almost never have anyone get aggro off me on a single mob, even without taunting) but we kinda suck with holding aggro on a big group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and we can use shields, but are limited to only bucklers.</DIV><p>Message Edited by OrladinHolyblade on <span class=date_text>12-02-2004</span> <span class=time_text>04:35 PM</span>

[Taeda]

<DIV>just incase anyone didnt read this </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=5&message.id=1009#M1009" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=5&message.id=1009#M1009</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>morgaard says our deflection skill is bugged ATM and should be fixed. im not sure if anyone else posted this already as i didnt look thru the whole thread.</DIV>

[Abi]

Quote:I have 6 skills that hit for 80 to 125, 1 that hits for 135 to 165, and 1 that hits for around 200, then add in my average melee damage from my fists and I got decent DPS, and yes that DPS can sometimes even reach scout level. Now scouts will hit for more total damage, but at hit at a slower rate. So, DPS probably is not extremely different in the end of the fight. The scout will still do more, but its not like it makes an extreme difference.----------------------------------------------------------------------------thats a joke compared to a scout. My level 20 Ranger does this kind of damage, except the normal melee dmg...

[Sant]

<DIV>Scouts of all sorts do far more damage then that and they have better utility spells. I am doing as much damage with my 14th lvl rogue as I did with my 18th lvl monk. Its true that arogue attacks are postional but thats really not an issue. In fact when I play my monk I like to be behind the MT just becuase I dont need parries hitting him. </DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>My friend who is a 33 monk tanked for us all day today in RE, with 5 and 6 man squads, with and without an enchanter.  I just used staggered stance on him.  He was tanking 41+ mobs no problem, and groups of reds (to me at 30).</DIV>

[Amii]

<DIV>dude monks are not tanks, just because we have a fighter archetype dont make us tanks at high lvl, only real tank in game is a guardian the hybrids blows chunks as well, poor pallies and SKs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we rock solid butt for CR, windwalk and FD makes us excellent in running back to rez a priest so he/she can revive the whole team back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and we are not bad dps either, just never think monks are supposed to be tanks.</DIV>

[Ashk]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Taedaen wrote:<BR> <DIV>just incase anyone didnt read this </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=5&message.id=1009#M1009" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=5&message.id=1009#M1009</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>morgaard says our deflection skill is bugged ATM and should be fixed. im not sure if anyone else posted this already as i didnt look thru the whole thread.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I knew something had to be wrong. Hopefully this fix actually does something for us. Thanks for the link.

[tkemo]

<DIV>That looks like good news <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[stfields]

<DIV>I'm a 21 Monk atm.  I understand that there is probably a big difference in a monk's ability to tank at 21 vs. level 29.  But, I'd like to share my experience with you last night.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was going to be cranking out AQ3 and AQ4 with some guild members (for the record, 21 Cleric, Fury, Shaman, 19 Pred).  So, naturally, I am the tank.  I've been the tank through our Antonica days, but Antonica is different.  However, they have been lulled into the fact that I tank (as I should be able to).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've heard horror stories on these forums about Monk mitigation post-20, so I upgraded all my defensive abilities to App3 / Adept I if they weren't already.  I also upgraded my gear so my base agility is 54 and base AC is 688.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Quote:</DIV> <DIV> <EM>even if I running Staggering Stance or Martial Focus (which seems to do nothing when I have Brawlers Stance up) and both of </EM></DIV> <DIV><EM>those powers are Adept 1</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>First, there is something wrong with the Martial Focus (Adept I) buff.  Using Martial Focus only raised my deflection by 1 (to 160ish) if Brawler Stance is already up.   However, Staggering Stance is a nice buff - I think it raised my agility to 69.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aside from my griping over the buggy deflection that others have mentioned, my group heads out to stormhold.  The feigned zombies are yellow ^^.  After the initial drop in HP while the cleric starts buffing/healing - I seemed to evade a fair percentage of attacks.  I would alternate between Staggering Stance and Martial Focus throughout the fight and it seemed to work quite well.  I also realized that my agility was at 89.  I'm guessing the Fury in the group had some sort of agi buff.  This seemed to make a big difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We then moved onto the strongboxes.  Fighting 2 yellow ^ or 3 yellow (no arrow) mobs, I evaded relatively often as well. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We wrapped up AQ3, and naturally everyone laughed that now I'm barefoot...   and we head to CoB for AQ4.  The mobs here are more or less "easier."  They are blue ^^ and white ^^ mobs.  I tanked these ok, however a member of the group recommended we get a "tank."  Now, I took that in jest since I'm sure it was a slip of the tongue (or fingers).  He had helped people with AQ4, and said that a plate tank is needed for the diseased corpses (some which are in groups of 3 yellow ^).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A 22 Paladin shows up within minutes and we grab him.  I wish we tried out some of this "Intervene" stuff since I bet it would've helped... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But we started with him tanking so I could do some more damage.  That poor Paladin had a difficult time keeping hate.  He had adequate gear, and did not mitigate damage very well at all.  Where I was being smacked for 110-150ish every few swings, he was hit for 80-90 every swing.  So, I wound up tanking again... it was a nice feeling.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do wonder how well that group would've worked if the Paladin had put up Intervene (or whatever buffs he could've given me to share damage).  That would in effect give the group a high evasion/parry tank with good AC.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will continue to push my agility as high as I can get it and hope it keeps me as a viable tank for a while longer.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Amiino wrote:<BR> <DIV>dude monks are not tanks, just because we have a fighter archetype dont make us tanks at high lvl, only real tank in game is a guardian the hybrids blows chunks as well, poor pallies and SKs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we rock solid butt for CR, windwalk and FD makes us excellent in running back to rez a priest so he/she can revive the whole team back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and we are not bad dps either, just never think monks are supposed to be tanks.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Heh.  Tell that to all the mobs in Runny Eye that died last night to our group with a 34 main tank monk and me, a 30 secondary tank monk.</P> <P>If deflection is broke as Moorgard states, we'll only be better when its fixed.</P> <P>I ASSURE you that monks can tank content well into the 40s at least, because I've SEEN it.<BR></P>

[GangsterFi]

YOu still had to intervine on the monk to make him effective you said. With plate tanks you usually dont need to do that. However, if deflection is bugged, then maybe once its fixed monks will be a way more viable main tank for groups.If you go back and reread some of my posts Gage, I never said the monk can't tank, I said we can't tank equally. Even with the shaman + tank combo, the heavy armor tank still works better. I have been main tank in groups in runnyeye and when damage spikes hit, it gets very hard for the monk to maintain. Now, with the intervine tactic its good, except when you have tons of mobs on the MT. Then you soak damage as the tank takes it, and having to heal 2 people is not as good as just having to heal one.Also, post some screen shots of a 33 monk tanking a lvl 41 mob. I want to see it.<p>Message Edited by GangsterFist on <span class=date_text>12-03-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:14 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GangsterFist wrote:<BR>YOu still had to intervine on the monk to make him effective you said. With plate tanks you usually dont need to do that. However, if deflection is bugged, then maybe once its fixed monks will be a way more viable main tank for groups.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I didn't intervene at all, I used staggering stance which I would do if it was a plate tank anyway.  IIRC you were saying you couldn't tank in RE and RV at all, correct?<BR> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>12-03-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:13 AM</span>

[GangsterFi]

not as well as a full plate guardian my level with 2500 ac.Also, i don't have the info up on staggering stance atm, but its our intervine upgrade. Thats what i meant. How much downtime did you have with a monk as MT? How many times did the healers go low power or out of power? When I am in RE with a plate tank, we can pretty much kill constantly and take on adds easily with no enchanter. When I tank in runnyeye the fights are closer, and sometimes we gotta evac. If something adds its even harder. I was with a level 30+ group (me being 31 myself). Now, when I have been MT with my guild mates (who all know how to play, its not like we try to zerg stuff or anything) in higher level areas fights are closer, healers drain power faster, and sometimes messed up aggro or adds kill us.However, with deflection being busted (still, just like it was in beta) maybe things will seem better.I saw your screenshot I don't remember those mobs being level 41+. I remember them being like level 36 to 38. However, I have not been back in RE since the whole con change patch.<p>Message Edited by GangsterFist on <span class=date_text>12-03-2004</span> <span class=time_text>08:38 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<DIV>Those mobs are 38, but the evil eyes down in the bottom are 41+ and we were killing those for the evil eye rampage mission as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We had hardly any downtime, and with two healers mana wasn't a problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I said, we played with a 34/35 guardian and a 33/34 monk and we were killing the same mobs, at the same pace with both groups and different MT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its all in how you play the class, and the players you have around you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Granted, we didn't do the 41+ w/o the ench though, so I'll give you that.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>12-03-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:38 AM</span>

[Vatec]

<DIV>Sounds like Monks in EQ2 have a problem similar to the one faced by sword-and-shield Armsmen in DAoC a few years back: defense is based on a random roll rather than a fixed percentage, so, A. as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, it's unreliable due to streaks and B. as someone else pointed out as well, it doesn't scale well when moving up to yellows and oranges. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In order to make this class group-friendly/desirable, I suspect that what would need to happen is to make Deflection a fixed percentage rather than reduced by con. This would reduce soloability, but increase groupability. Of course, it does nothing to resolve the unreliability. Groups using Monks as MTs would have a very flat bell curve, with a lot more "efficient, low-damage" fights and a lot more nail-biters and wipeouts, so Monks would still be less desireable than the plate-wearers. At least it would be a start.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>I am very interested in starting a Monk character, but I foresee a career of soloing because, A. it's hard for Monks to get non-guild groups and B. Monks are probably pretty good at it (at least the blues and greens). Guess I should just call him "PlatPharmer" and use him to buy stuff for my other characters <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Still, very nice eye candy <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[GangsterFi]

Okay, I gotcha. But tanking evil eyes is not that hard. Casters die fast with good DPS, and if you keep them silenced or stunned they can't really do anything to. Now, with out that someone is gonna get charmed.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GangsterFist wrote:<BR>Okay, I gotcha. But tanking evil eyes is not that hard. Casters die fast with good DPS, and if you keep them silenced or stunned they can't really do anything to. Now, with out that someone is gonna get charmed.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>True, but like I said we did most of the dungeon including the melee mobs.  Meh, either way I think monks can tank fine personally.<BR>

[Huflu]

<DIV>I too have noticed my tanking abilities dwindle in the last few levels.  In fact its almost to the point where soloing is becoming an issue.  True, I can solo, yet it is now creating extended downtime which means its not worth my time doing.  I am now level 25 with a full set of quested armor and a full set of teir 3 jewelry, my ac is 898 unbuffed and all of my resistance are over 300.  I tell you this because I dont want you to assume that Im a bad monk,  or dont know how to play my class.  Anyone who has ever grouped with me will tell you that I am a good monk, and a good player.  I played a monk in eq1 and I was in an uber guild.  <A href="http://www.sovereignguild.org/" target=_blank>www.sovereignguild.org</A>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now to the real issues.  First of all, I'd like to say I appreciate what gangster is doing.  He trying to bring to everyone's attention that our class is suffering from major balancing issues, <EM>which it is</EM>.  All of you brawlers and level 20 monks are chiming in - "But we can tank just fine!!" Truth told, you can.  Monk/Brawlers tank great up until level 22 or so.  I loved tanking and I did a great job doing it.  I was absolutely entertained when leading my group down into the bottom of stormhold holding off yellow mobs with double up arrows and what not.  But now, things are changing.  At level 25 I can <EM>still</EM> tank.  <STRONG>However</STRONG>, its not efficient and its not worthwhile.  Any plate or chain class can tank better.  Granted I can tank and I do keep my group alive, but if you watch a berserker do the same job.. you will realize that they are far better at it.  Just yesterday I was helping some friends/roomates do their amor #6 quest.  My job- at first I was just gonna tag along doing "dps", I say that in quotes because indeed, we are not a dps class and my roomate who plays a swashbuckler can confirm this.  Our dps is good, but not great.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, when we first started I had asked a friend of mine who played a paladin to come and tank for us.  He was there for about 30 minutes and we were storming through mobs.  Killing griffons, steelhoufs, and lions.  During this time we experienced very little downtime and were moving along quite nicely, handling adds without mezzing and getting wonderful experience (which you do when you dont have downtime).  Now - He had to leave.  So I assume the role of the tank.  I use Brawlers stance, staggering stance, and martial focus - just as any good monk should.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My tanking ability absolutely pales in comparision to that of a paladin, which many would not even consider a "<EM>pure</EM>" tank.  The downtime was slower because more mana was used to keep me alive.  Often my hps would fall into the <STRONG>red range</STRONG>.  However, while the paladin was tanking his hps never seemed to get below half, at any point.  Before all you level 18 brawlers and level 22 monks start flaming my post saying that you tanked this, or you can tank that - wait till level 25 when your bugged deflection really starts to hurt.  Get in a group with another tank of equal level with equal equipment.  Let him tank for a bit and watch.. then you try tanking.  Tank for a good while <EM>if they let you</EM>.  You'll soon realize what Im talking about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now many would argue that we are a dps class and shouldnt be tanking.  Doesnt the berserker do as much damage as we?  Can't the berserker do an incredible job tanking?  They can.  Ive seen them do it.  Ive seen one that was a lower level than I was tank much better.  I know he was tanking much better <STRONG>because my roomate was the healer</STRONG>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point is - Monks are an unbalanced class.  Deflection<STRONG> IS </STRONG>bugged -  You get a 39 point bonus at level 20 (At this level you can tank) <EM>but</EM> it does not go up.  Only your <STRONG>base</STRONG> goes up, which is not the number you use to figure in your deflection.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Level 20 - 139/100</DIV> <DIV>Level 21 - 139/105</DIV> <DIV>Level 22 - 139/110</DIV> <DIV>Level 23 - 139/115... and so on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What can we do?  We can complain until sony fixes it.  We can petition and make post until somebody notices.  I do want to tank.  I do want to enjoy my class.  But right now - as it stands..  This class is flawed.  Please, us monks as a community must come together on this issue until something is done about it.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Huflung on <span class=date_text>12-03-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:44 PM</span>

[Sinai]

<DIV>Huflung's response is probably the best concise statement of where the monk is in tanking at this point in time I've seen yet.  In short, monk's can tank, but much worse than any other fighter class.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At this point, my level 22 monk regularly plays with approximately the same level shaman, clearly the best healer class for a monk.  Sometimes, we duo.  It works surprisingly well.  We can take down blue++ with ease, and white++ with difficulty, with just the two of us, and fairly quickly at that.  That is absolutely wonderful.  But the second I get in a group, I explicitly state that I can't tank well.  I'm an excellent player, and I will min/max the class I have for all I'm worth and I love playing multiple roles, but it's evident that despite my best efforts, tanking isn't something I should be doing if we're looking for any sort of efficiency.  A yellow++ is a dangerous encounter in a full group for me, simply because I can go down in three unlucky rounds, and dealing with multiple mobs, or worse, adds is a nightmare.  The deflection arc completely destroys my ability to tank well in such instances, and even if I didn't have to deal with it, I simply couldn't tank, say, 3 orange + at the same time, which I've seen any number of good heavy tanks do without breaking much of a sweat.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for monks tanking lower level mobs better than heavy tanks?  Complete bunk.  A dozen grey+/++ is a worrisome encounter to me, where if they get outside my deflection arc, they can do significant amounts of damage to me.  As opposed to a paladin I often party with, where just for laughs, he aggroed about 20 grey+/++ mobs on him, prancing around on his horse until they all got AOE'd to death.  After an initial slightly frantic first 15 seconds, his health bar barely budged.  At no point would I even consider aggroing 20 mobs, there is no way I would survive that with even the best healers.  It wasn't strictly for laughs, we were attempting to see if AOE was at all viable.  Later on he tried something like 7 blues at once and the results were about the same.  I think I could probably 7 blues with a pair of competent healer, but there's no way i'd try it on a whim.  The paladin's health, again, barely budged once the healers got going.      </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact of the matter is, when I duo with my shaman friend, his ability to take damage comparable to mine, or <STRONG>better</STRONG>, to the point that I don't bother using intervene, tranquil nature, or often even taunting.  This of course stems from his 1000+ buffed armor class from his medium armor, as opposed to my perhaps 750 buffed light armor.  And that's not even counting his potential bear form or staggering stance.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And it's not like the devs don't know we have a problem.  The bugged deflection aside, the patch today gave us round shields.  They obviously know monks aren't performing up to snuff in terms of tanking.  Of course, we all know that a round shield is just a bone thrown our way in some lame attempt to distract us from larger issues. </DIV>

[Sinai]

<DIV> <DIV>Err, double post.  Sorry.</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by SinaiGB on <span class=date_text>12-03-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:52 PM</span>

[Denset]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Abian wrote:<BR>well how about giving monks their "traditional" role? pulling?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=7><STRONG>NO!</STRONG></FONT>  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There IS NO PULLING IN EQ2!  Please, people, for the love of all that is good and right in thid world, DO NOT ASK FOR MONKS TO BE PULLERS!  This was a completely flawed role in EQL, and was even considered by the devs back when it was Verant running the show to be an EXPLOIT!  This tells you how the company views pulling.  This is the reason that mobs in EQ2 aren't just mobs that are social.  This is why mobs are obviously linked together.  This is why mobs are now encounters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ2, you are SUPPOSED to be able to pull that group of 7 linked mobs because it is balanced as one encounter, and a balanced group CAN win.  There is absolutely no reason to seperate mobs in an encounter.  The closest you get to pulling now is to use a ranged weapon to grab a single encounter when they are too close to other single encounters to just run up and attack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Making us pullers IS NOT THE SOLUTION!  I will freaking quit this game outright if I am reduced to being 'puller' again.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>Today marks the SECOND day in a row that my friend (now 35 monk) has tanked for our group in RE.  He did it today with ONE healer who wasn't even a shammy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You guys need to quit crying nerf and play your class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We were running all over RE today with: 35 monk (MT), 32 Wiz, 31 Templar, 31 Monk (me), 35 Troubador, 30 Dirge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Killing named, linked mobs etc and so on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure we had to evac twice, but once was because our Wiz got aggro and once was because a bugged shift boss mob spawned right on top of us after we had just cleared them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You guys say monks can't tank past 22 and I'm telling you I see it all day long.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Learn the class.</DIV>

[Dovifat]

<blockquote><hr>GangsterFist wrote:Also, i don't have the info up on staggering stance atm, but its our intervine upgrade. <hr></blockquote>I'm not sure if it is an intended upgrade to Intervene, maybe it shares the same timer. Game mechanics wise its however very different. You do not take any damage if your target is hit, you however get a chance to block/deflect attacks directed at Staggering Stance's target. It will also increase your agility. So in fact, you would hurt yourself not casting it even if you'r MT.

[Sant]

<DIV>Gage I understand that you feel that monks can Tank. The problem lies in the fact that many players dont. I think we can tank just not as well as the other fighter classes. the problem is, we have no roll in a group that cant be filled by someone that can do it better. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure if you have a dedicated group of friends that dont care that your a monk then great you get to play all the time but alot of people dont have a close group of online friends. Most of My RL friends would  never play this type of game. So i have to rely on pickup groups and on people i meet in the game. the game has been out for what 4 weeks give or take and already monks are getting turned down for groups. I dont like seeing this and hope that something is done to improve the monks lot. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I dont think monks should be Main tanks I would rather we were more ST s with good DPS. I just dont understand the idea  of monks being tanks it doesnt make any sense to me from a RP perspective. In every fantasy novel every game and every story I have ever read they were damage dealers not armored bastions of defense.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Santsu on <span class=date_text>12-03-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:10 PM</span>

[Abi]

Huflung said it all!

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Santsu wrote:<BR> <DIV>Gage I understand that you feel that monks can Tank. </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I feel that way, because they can.</P> <P>Also, my deflection is 155/155 so if yours isn't updating, flag it.</P> <P>With deflection supposedly fixed tomorrow and the ability to use round shields (oakwood is +22 h/p, with I think 216 shield @ 31) we are only going to get better.</P> <P>I don't know why everyone feels guardians can tank "better".</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Sant]

<DIV>Yes we can tank just not near as good as any of the other fighters. What do you think that we all suck. Alot of us have tested this and monk tanking is the worst of any fighter, thats not opinion thats fact. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By the way your deflections should be  194/155 if the bonus was working correctly.</DIV>

[GangsterFi]

staggering stance is our upgrade to intervine read the skill description. It says take damage for opponet and up their deflection skills. So, its like they will get hit less often, but when they do, you step in and take some of it for them.About runnyeye. Well, i did almost the whole dungeon tonight minus a few areas. Considering that our MT (a guardian) got hit several times for over 800 damage (thats with mitigation) means that the monk is no where near an equal tank. 800 damage would take about half my life away. If the mob would crit twice, i would die. Not to mention, we were hardly fighting one mob at a time. So imagine fighting 6 mobs at once, each of them having the chance to crit you for over 600 to 800 damage. Well, I hope for the monks sake that his/her avoidance rolls pass those would be critical hits.Evil eyes are weak, a wizzard could tank them.I had a monk in beta, and the same issues are still around with them, and their tanking abilities in comparison to the fighter archetype as a whole. I am not saying it will not work gage. I am saying that heavy plate tanks are better. WE DO NOT TANK EQUALLY.

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Santsu wrote:<DIV>Yes we can tank just not near as good as any of the other fighters. What do you think that we all suck. Alot of us have tested this and monk tanking is the worst of any fighter, thats not opinion thats fact. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>By the way your deflections should be 194/155 if the bonus was working correctly.</DIV><hr></blockquote>I gave you 5 stars to offset the 1 star some fan boy gave you.I agree. monks can tank. They are just no where near the equal to other tanks. Also, has anyone else tried the monk + guardian combination besides me? I am gonna try it in runnyeye here soon.

[Musashi-]

Monks Can use a Shield.. IF I am tanking for my guild which I do alot. I use a buckler.. the latest Patch notes said Monks can Use Round Shields now!!!So go out and try using a Shield... Every Class that tries to tank, tanks better with a shield!

[GangsterFi]

Also, One more thing them i am off to bed I promise...Feign death, Its a joke. It has no real merit to the game. Get a bad pull or aggro in any dungeon you evac. If you don't evac then you FD and try to clickable res the dead priest. Well, guess what, thats not possible in most scenerios. Usually you die in a place there is no way for you to safe res anyone in and regain your health. After you res the priest he has no power and nohealth, and the priest has to heal you and res the others. Well, in a aggro enviroment thats just really not feasable. Let us drag corpses to a safe spot so we can safely perform res on the group and get back into action.Gage-You keep saying, know your class. Yet I stated several tactics with the monk being the main tank with a guardian back up and no one has even considered this a posibility. Perhaps, I am on the right track here? Combine monks offense and deflection with the guardians HPs and mitigation. Perhaps a lot of you need to try out different things. Go fight in the mino room at level 32 as a monk in RE, and try to MT it will be very hard for you to hold your own. Because all those pulls are socials, and they have the chance to hit for 800 damage on a critical. Well, I am not saying you are a bad monk, but I have been playing a monk since beta, have played one in EQ 1, played on in NWN, and study other classes skills to develop tactics with the monk. So, just try to go main tank all the level 38 mobs that hti for 800 on a crit and see if it works. I didnt even wana try it. I got hit by a 789 dmg barrage tonight because I was standing at an angle to the front of a mino. Each one of them can do that, and when you are fighting like 4 of them, thats a possible 3200 dmg, which a guardian can take (guardian i was with lvl 33 w/ just under 3k Hps and 2600AC) because with mitigation he never takes full damage on a hit. 3200 damage would kill me outright. I know, that it would be a rare occurance for every mob in the social to critical, but its stil possible.

[Dovifat]

<blockquote><hr>Musashi- wrote:Monks Can use a Shield.. IF I am tanking for my guild which I do alot. I use a buckler.. the latest Patch notes said Monks can Use Round Shields now!!!So go out and try using a Shield... Every Class that tries to tank, tanks better with a shield!<hr></blockquote>Yup, another take-the-easy-way-out approach there. Instead of fixing the Brawlers' defensive abilities, they give us shields. Tomorrows headline: Brawlers now have access to Medium Armor !No thanks, if i wanted to be a tincan hiding behind a shield, i had rolled one.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GangsterFist wrote:<BR>Considering that our MT (a guardian) got hit several times for over 800 damage (thats with mitigation) means that the monk is no where near an equal tank. 800 damage would take about half my life away. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Funny, our monk tank had 3000hp. :smileyindifferent:</P> <P>First you say we can't tank at ALL and now its not equally.</P> <P>Just because <EM>you</EM> can't tank, doesn't mean the class is broken.</P> <P>Its not just evil eyes man, its the shift boss, clay insurgent, the mess cook, the master of the guard etc and so on.</P> <P>Multiple mobs, boss mobs EVERYTHING in Runny Eye with a lvl33 then 34 and now 35 monk MT.</P> <P>It can be done.<BR></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GangsterFist wrote:<BR>Gage-<BR><BR>You keep saying, know your class. Yet I stated several tactics with the monk being the main tank with a guardian back up and no one has even considered this a posibility. Perhaps, I am on the right track here? Combine monks offense and deflection with the guardians HPs and mitigation. Perhaps a lot of you need to try out different things. <FONT color=#ffff00>Go fight in the mino room at level 32 as a monk in RE, and try to MT it will be very hard for you to hold your own. Because all those pulls are socials, and they have the chance to hit for 800 damage on a critical. Well, I am not saying you are a bad monk, but I have been playing a monk since beta, have played one in EQ 1, played on in NWN, and study other classes skills to develop tactics with the monk. So, just try to go main tank all the level 38 mobs that hti for 800 on a crit and see if it works. I didnt even wana try it. I got hit by a 789 dmg barrage tonight because I was standing at an angle to the front of a mino. Each one of them can do that, and when you are fighting like 4 of them, thats a possible 3200 dmg, which a guardian can take (guardian i was with lvl 33 w/ just under 3k Hps and 2600AC) because with mitigation he never takes full damage on a hit. 3200 damage would kill me outright. I know, that it would be a rare occurance for every mob in the social to critical, but its stil possible.<BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P>Gangster I know you know the class, which is why it disappoints me that you are so negative.</P> <P>This part we did man.  We did the Minotaurs who are social, we did the Clay insurgent, we did all the goblin named mobs for the quest.  We did all of these with a lvl 35 MT monk with between 2800-3000hp.</P> <P>Maybe that room is hard to tank @ 32, that part could be true.  I doubt it will be when deflection is fixed.</P> <P>The part I don't like is that you try to say it can't be done or that we don't tank as well as other classes.  I just don't feel that is true.</P> <P>My monk friend at 34/35 tanked the same mobs with the same down time as my other friend who is a 34/35 guardian. (they dinged during xp'ing).</P> <P>We were even going for awhile with one healer (although I will always prefer two no matter who is tanking).</P> <P>The fact that deflection is BROKEN and should be fixed, combined with round shields now instead of just a buckler is going to make us that much better at being MT.</P> <P>You guys don't have to agree with me, but I think there is one problem and one problem only: deflection being broken.</P> <P>Since Moorgard says the fix is coming (today even) and I've been doing all of RE with a monk for a MT, that gives me a lot of positive outlook.</P><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>12-04-2004</span> <span class=time_text>07:26 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GangsterFist wrote:<BR>staggering stance is our upgrade to intervine read the skill description. It says take damage for opponet and up their deflection skills. So, its like they will get hit less often, but when they do, you step in and take some of it for them.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I don't think it is, because intervene is still white to me @ 31 and uses concentration.  Staggering Stance is blue to me and doesn't use concentration.  You may be right but it'd be a replacement to intervene not an upgrade.<BR>

[Huflu]

<DIV>I don't feel that ganster is being negative.  At first he was very positive and offering new ideas for a monk that tanks.  All he is doing is trying to let everyone know that there is indeed a problem.  If we sit back and tell ourselves that we are a fine class and need no tweaking, then nothing will get done.  All I really wanted to see happen was something done about the bugged deflection.  If this is happening, then I feel I have done my duty.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Abi]

i wonder if the devs read this thread...

[SomeDudeCRO]

Would be nice, I would like to know what they invision a monk's role being and what changes if any are necessary to fulfill that vision.

[Dovifat]

I know this is nitpicking but...please "examine" your Staggering Stance skill. It is <b>not</b> an upgrade to Intervene. If you were in Beta, it is the Brawlers' replacement to Defend. The description states it allows you to block for [ your target ], as well, as increasing your agility. It also has a different HO icon, timer and recast time. It is <b>not</b> an upgrade to Intervene, but a completely different and independent skill.

[Denset]

<DIV>It's obvious that by giving us Round Shields, the devs also see a problem with the Monk class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But how is giving a MONK the use of SHIELDS (why were we even able to use a buckler, anyway?) the answer?  If I wanted to use shields, then I would want some armor to go with them.  This doesn't even make SENSE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want us to have shield factor, then give us wristguards with the shielding factor of a round shield that use the Brawling skill to equip.  At least THAT would make sense, blocking attacks with my wrists while leaving my hands free to attack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even if a Brawler-type CAN tank, and let's face it, we can, but not equal with ANY other Fighter class.  Because of this, groups don't WANT us to tank.  And believe it or not, secondary tank is NOT a role that most groups think is necessary to fill.  Most groups would rather have an enchanter to mez the mobs, or another healer to keep the tank going, or another true DPS to kill the mobs on the tank easier.  The only time offtanking is even necessary is if you have multiple linked encounters on you.  At this point, you're doing something wrong anyway.  The MT should be able to tank the entirety of a single linked encounter all by himself.  And Guardians, Berserkers, Paladins, and Shadowknights do this well.</DIV>

[Yinmaren]

<DIV>Staggering Stance is nothing like intervene at all. What Staggering Stance does is lower the amount of dmg the character you have the buff on recieves and gives you buffed AGI. You take no dmg when this buff is on. Also, this works EXTREMELY effective with intervene. If you are the MT and you are intervened, slap Staggering Stance on the guy who is intervening you. He takes less damage.. much less. I tested this with my Berserker friend today. It ups their mitigation big time. W/o the buff he was being hit for 25-40 while I was getting hit for 30-45. With the buff he was getting hit for 15-35 while I was recieving the same dmg (he had intervene on).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, the timer on Staggering Stance is EXTREMELY odd. You can spam it all day long, w/o a recast time, however, once the buff runs out, you have to wait 30 seconds. In other words, if you cast it before it runs out, you can continue to cast it again and again and again. It has a 2 minute 30 second timer and a 30 second re-usable timer. It's a great skill to use.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm going to have to go out and buy a shield. Perhaps the shield will make fists more viable now seeing as how it hits as fast as a 2 hander and just as hard but with added defense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can easily say that mend is EXTREMELY usefull in a duo with a monk and another fighter. Using the intervene/staggering stance combo works wonders. We killed 13 mobs at peak points in a row before I had to use mend on myself and we did it again and by that time, mend was up. Non-stop killing of whites at 20 except for when we are at half health and get jumped by 2 other mobs... not a fun time at all.</DIV>

[Musashi-]

MOnks were given shields because if they ARE the Main Tank they need to use a shield JUST LIKE ALL THE OTHER TANKS!I have been trying the Intervene on My Monk since the game has come out but really did some Tests over the last week. I Think this will be the Best Set up on Raids.

[Abi]

well to be honest... Monks with big shields ... How could that be the "vision" for SOE ???Could they do something to have this Tanking Issue solved really easy???It would be just helpful to get HP just like the other tanks... I dont understand em ..

[D`Jani]

<P>Monks and Bruisers can now wield round shields in addition to bucklers.</P> <P> </P> <P>I sincerely hope this isnt their "easy way out" fix for this problem, this is ridiculus, name me ANY monk in any game or history where they require or need a "shield" to defend "their body" The whole philosophy of a monk is using the BODY as a temple of strength and energy, and NOT NEED any type of shield or armor to defend themselves with.</P> <P>Seriously if this is the vision of SOE in how their gonna lean a monk, i might as well cancel my acct and go to WoW, since i refuse to play a char like this.</P>

[Leopa]

Good bye then.

[Yinmaren]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> </P> <P>D`Janico wrote:</P> <P>Seriously if this is the vision of SOE in how their gonna lean a monk, i might as well cancel my acct and go to WoW, since i refuse to play a char like this.<BR></P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Monks could use shields, and it was preferable to use them, in BG1 and 2. I don't care who you are, your body can not protect you against a flaming giant with a sword three times the size of you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, since we are comparing monks of EQ2 to monks of other games in terms of shields, lets compare them to other RPG's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. They are pretty much the same as EQLive, but with added utility.</DIV> <DIV>2. They are roughly the same as BG1 and 2 with the noted difference of HP's.</DIV> <DIV>3. The Martial Artist (which is close enough to monk) in AO had high dmg and roughly the same tanking ability.</DIV> <DIV>4. In all games monks have ALWAYS been DPS and back up tank. I fail to see why everyone is so dissapointed in this. If you have played EQLive, then you should of expected roughly the same thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plate tanks should always tank better than anybody who does not wear plate. Do you think your body can stop something sharp and pointy from stabbing you in the stomach? Nope, don't think so.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you compare something to other games in one perspective, you must look at all the others.</DIV>

[D`Jani]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2> <DIV><FONT size=2>Per SOE, all FIGHTER type classes should be able to tank, just with different style, yes i totally agree a monk should not be able to outtank a war/guardian. Thats their main job and 100% agree. But we should be at least a deacent replacable no? not a power dump as it seems.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00 size=2>Monks could use shields, and it was preferable to use them, in BG1 and 2. I don't care who you are, your body can not protect you against a flaming giant with a sword three times the size of you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>By avoiding it alltogether..  and using CHI, again a monks main forte.. using their body agility and spirit as their strength.to avoid a blow alltogether</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Plate tanks should always tank better than anybody who think sodoes not wear plate. Do you think your body can stop something sharp and pointy from stabbing you in the stomach? Nope, don't .</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><A href="http://www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/images/bed%20of%20nails%20garry.jpg" target=_blank>http://www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/images/bed%20of%20nails%20garry.jpg</A> :smileyhappy:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><A href="http://www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/images/bed%20of%20nails%20linda%202.jpg" target=_blank>http://www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/images/bed%20of%20nails%20linda%202.jpg</A> :smileyhappy:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><A href="http://www.monkeyview.net/id/106/russia/ogy/meloni01.jpg" target=_blank>http://www.monkeyview.net/id/106/russia/ogy/meloni01.jpg</A> :smileyhappy:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>You should read up on Shaolin Iron body, Iron Palm </FONT></DIV></DIV>

[Yinmaren]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2> <DIV><FONT size=2><EM>Per SOE, all FIGHTER type classes should be able to tank, just with different style, yes i totally agree a monk should not be able to outtank a war/guardian. Thats their main job and 100% agree. But we should be at least a deacent replacable no? not a power dump as it seems.</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>We are a decent replacable. I can tank just fine by myself in a group and even better with a berserker or guardian when intervened. If the mob hits me, I take about half the dmg.</DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><EM>By avoiding it alltogether..  and using CHI, again a monks main forte.. using their body agility and spirit as their strength.to avoid a blow alltogether</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Please tell me what using a shield would does :smileyhappy:.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><A href="http://www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/images/bed%20of%20nails%20garry.jpg" target=_blank><EM>http://www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/images/bed%20of%20nails%20garry.jpg</EM></A><EM> :smileyhappy:</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><A href="http://www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/images/bed%20of%20nails%20linda%202.jpg" target=_blank><EM>http://www.shaolinjeeshinwingchun.com.au/images/bed%20of%20nails%20linda%202.jpg</EM></A><EM> :smileyhappy:</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><A href="http://www.monkeyview.net/id/106/russia/ogy/meloni01.jpg" target=_blank><EM>http://www.monkeyview.net/id/106/russia/ogy/meloni01.jpg</EM></A><EM> :smileyhappy:</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><EM>You should read up on Shaolin Iron body, Iron Palm </EM></FONT></DIV></DIV> <P><BR>Firstly, the nail bed is a simple trick. Your bodies weight is spread out between the needles. The added brick in the center is just additional weight. Notice how the two on the bed have their eyes closed and are not fighting?</P> <P>Now, lets talk about the picture of the guy and the melon. Firstly, the melon would slow the blade down, causing it to go slower before it hit him. A simple trick. Secondly, notice how he is using a chopping motion and not a piercing motion? I guarantee he couldn't stop a rapier from piercing his stomach. Thirdly, do you notice how much he is concentratin and flexing his muscles? Notice how if he was up and about the sword would slice him easily?</P> <P>Monks get an ability that is similar to this. It lowers our offense and increases our defense. Currently it is semi-broken, but that does not lower our tanking ability. If you want a monk ability that causes us to not attack and dodge all attacks for a certain amount of time, I don't see whats wrong with this.. except the fact that all that would be needed on raid bosses would be monks. This skill could only be balancable if it were in a 2-3 minute timer and only lasted 15-20 seconds.</P> <P>Even then, thats a mighty powereful skill.. even at lvl 50.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Sant]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>4. In all games monks have ALWAYS been DPS and back up tank. I fail to see why everyone is so dissapointed in this. If you have played EQLive, then you should of expected roughly the same thing.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>The problem with this is simple monks dont do good enough damage to be considered first rate DPS. My Swashbuckler does far more damage and has more utility. My monk needs a job, be it tank or DPS he needs to do one of them good enought to be attractive to groups.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Giving a Monk a shield is like giving a nun a condom its useless and totally out of character.</DIV></DIV>

[Huflu]

<DIV>I do not know what SOE did on their Dec. 3 patch that wasnt on the patch notes, but by god they did something.  I had read that they were going to "fix" deflection the next patch, which was the on dec. 3rd.  So I decided to log on and play around.  First I went to nekt forest and tried soloing for a while.  I found myself dodging, blocking, parrying, and riposting alot more.  I was able to take out whites with no problems and very little downtime.  Later I had found myself in a group with a 24 Guardian who was tanking.  I politely asked if I could tank for a few to test my theory on the fixed deflection.  He was kind enough to let me have a go at it and much to everyone's surprise I seemed to tank just as well as he did.  IF he was a better tank, it wasnt by a noticable amount.  Even later a few of my friends log on and we decide to test further, so my roomate (warden) and other roomate (swashbuckler) grab a couple of dps (2 dirges) and have a good go round with me being MT.  You may find what Im about to tell you hard to believe, but I do not lie.  The experience was excellent.  We started with grouped whites to see how that would go.  With his regen on I would rarely fall below max health.  Often it would appear that I wasnt taking any damage at all.  I was in fact taking damage but so little that I would quickly regen it back.  On grouped blues and whites, sometimes with up arrows, sometimes large group with no arrows, he would never spend more than half a bubble of his mana keeping me up.  Most of the time his regen over time alone was enough to keep me at max health.  Seeing that something had indeed had changed, we decided to move on to some yellows and try those.  First thing we pulled was a yellow with two up arrows.  I had on staggering stance, brawlers stance, and popped martial focus.  It went very smoothly.  Though my health sometimes did drop a bit, it wasnt anything to break a sweat over.  We handled the encounter easily with the healer only spending about a bub and a half for the encounter.  This wasnt a even a caster mob!  So we pull a few more to make sure the first wasnt a fluke.  We had the same results each time.  Quick clean kill with no downtime.  At this point Im feeling brave....  I spot an orange double arrow up mob around the corner of the citadel.  I confirm with my group that everyone is ready and pull.  Tanking this mob was not a problem at all.  I will say that he did hit me for 528 on a hit, however most hits were around the 200 range.  The healer did have to spend a bit more mana on this mob... I'd say he used 2 and half bubs of power for the encounter, but the imporant thing is that I did tank and never felt I was in any danger nor did anyone in my group.  It was awsome.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I noticed my deflection still appears to be bugged.  I'd love to hear what a developer's take on the situation is.  Are they going to fix it?  Is it even broke?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a post by a developer I had read that delfection wasnt "firing off when it should" which affected monks, brawlers, and bruisers more than most.  That firing issue was scheduled to be fixed on December 3rd, and as far as I can tell - IT IS definetly fixed.  I am back to a tank status and happy to be here.  I would still like some further info on deflection being 139/125 and the 139 not going up (See previous post for further explanation).  However, having the ability to tank once again is enough to make me happy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a side note- I picked up a nice medium shield off a yellow named we took out near the waterfall.  It was called a goblin shield.  My group was kind enough to let me have it and I can't wait to see if it makes a difference in my already very capable tanking abilities.  </DIV>

[Blaze]

I am actually alot happier with our tanking now too. My giant group today had a 25 monk tanking pretty much all day. And things went pretty well. We fought up to 28++ giants. Although the 25 troubador was against it at first. They actually thought they could tank just as well as a monk. So one pull the troubador taunted and got aggro on purpose. That silly bard got smacked down and made our healer go oom. It was quite funny.

[GangsterFi]

Well, 33 now, gone just about all over runnyeye. Killed the named minotaur (cerebral or whatever and he drops a nice high level baton) past the banker and armorer. Monks are better now that they can use shields. I got a shield and a 1h blunt for tank mode.Still at 33 and fully buffed I have around 2.2k hps and around 1900ac. Thats not bad at my lvl. I know some guardains who have like 2600 ac at my level and they tank very well. The thing I find the most irritating is the avoidance. Against even cons or lower it works okay and its easy to manage with the proper group. However when we go down and kill lvl 41ish named mobs in runnyeye, well the plate tank is way superior. Monks can tank, but its still no where equal.Now, I really just find myself being more useful in a group as dps/utility. Which unfortunately is not the role of a fighter, thats a scout or a mages role. One thing that also really bugs me is the item thats dropped. I have gloves, boots, and bracers I got from runnyeye I cant wear until im like level 42. I mean, whats the point of having an area where a group of level 35ish people can get loot they can't use for almost 10 levels? My quest armor is turning green. I replaced my bp with another bp, and replaced my legs with better ones. However, its still very hard to find good light armor to wear in your mid 30s. I find some tailored stuff but its mostly low blue and green as is, and offers extremely little improvement (if any) to my current gear.I got some merchant bought armor that offers more ac, however it seems the lack of resists hurts me in dungeons more than the lack of the attributes and AC. If it were not for the + to the resists I would scrap most my green armor and get vendor bought orange for the AC. I know from a DEVs perspective this problem is probably tough to tackle. How do you improve whats broke but maintain balance? Truth is, since I tank so randomly (sometimes way too good, and others way too poor) its really hard to tell. Where plate tanks, you pretty much know their abilities no matter what the situation is. Also, this is off topic, but dirges can actually break berzerkers taunt. I noticed it today in my group. Our dirge was pulling mobs off the zerker. Just found that interesting, since everyone else seems tohave problems out taunting zerkers.

[stfields]

<DIV>Well, the word on the street that "Monks can't tank" trickled down into the level 20 players in Thunder Steppes and proceeded to make my life as a monk miserable for a few days.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was in a makeshift group with some guild members to do AQ5.  Fury, Mystic and myself (monk).  I kept up Brawler's Stance all day, kept Tranquil Blessing on the Fury and used Martial Focus whenever it was up and refreshed Staggering Stance whenever the timer crept close to expiring.  With Fury buffs, I was @ 90 agility.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Against yellow ^^ mobs, I had little problem tanking.  Occasionally when the RNG was unforgiving, I'd get hit 3 times in a row.  But, especially against giants and griffons, I could go 5-10 rounds sustaining 0 damage, ward not included.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Swarm Beetles(yellow, 6 in a group) were only a problem when they tried to spread out a get behind me (where deflection skills don't help).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm looking forward to more agility and some harder mobs. </DIV>

[Ashk]

<BR> <DIV>Man, I'm so frustrated and annoyed right now. I have no clue how people are saying deflection was fixed. I just got killed by 1 yellow solo corpse feeder in TS. I've had to break encounter like 4 times and FD because I keep almost getting killed by these. Its one freaking yellow crab and I can't even solo it with 4 AQ armors, app 3 and adept 1 spells and the rest of my armor is yellow or white. This class is just totally **mods 4 teh win!!1!**.</DIV>

[Huflu]

<DIV>Nevermind what I said, apparently they destroyed deflection again today in their "ninja" patch.  I tanked like absolute poo today.  Take your freaking woodens shields and burn them in protest.  /rude sony!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seriously, when are they gonna do something about this?  Can we get this issue resolved please?  I'd love to be able to play my avoidance tank.  Is that possible?</DIV>

[Justin]

<DIV>~</DIV><p>Message Edited by Justin21 on <span class=date_text>12-06-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:18 PM</span>

[Justin]

<DIV><B>This seems to be the core of the tanking monk dispute:</B></DIV> <DIV><B> <P> <HR> <P></P></B> <P><B>mitigate</B></P> <P>v 1: lessen or to try to lessen the seriousness or extent of;</P> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P>     I'm of the opinion that monks are intended to fill this role. If we weren't, as so many people are trying desperately to persuade others, then our huge array of skills in the taunting and defense lines are a waste of space in my knowledge book. </P> <P>     The largest asset of the archetype system is that it removes the dependency of any one class or subclass from groups/raids. Gone are the days when you<STRONG><EM> must </EM></STRONG>have 30% of your raid force made up of clerics. Each class and subclass within their chosen archetype is able to adequately replace any other of their archetype, though the method in which they do so may not be the same.</P> <P>     YES, it's true. All things being equal, monks will never mitigate damage as well as a plate tank. Melee mitigation, the ability to absorb and lessen melee damage, is largely determined by armor class. As a class that wears light armor, this is often not our strong suit. HOWEVER, this in no way means that we cannot tank as well. Mitigation and tanking are completely different entities. They are <STRONG><EM>not</EM></STRONG> the synonyms that many of the previous posts in this forum would leave you to believe. </P> <P>     While mitigation is one aspect of tanking, low mitigation does not necessarily correlate with low ability to tank. Equally important, if not more so, is avoidance- the ability to dodge/parry/deflect, completely escaping harm by an incoming melee attack. This is the variance that allows the brawler class to hold their own in the tanking role of a group. True, we'll never avoid every blow sent our direction, but I believe that we avoid enough damage to equal the amount mitigated away by a plate tank class. </P> <P>     Speaking from personal experience, I am nearly always the tank for my groups- even when killing mobs seven levels above myself.  All that's needed are a few necessary preparations: A defensive stance,(Brawler's stance/ Sweeping Crane,) something from the staggering stance line, and the short term deflection boost(martial focus, karmic focus, etc). For the extremely difficult nameds, I find it useful to enhance my mitigation as much as possible once I've established aggro. If this means rooting myself with Face the Mountain or pulling out a 225ac round shield to bring me up to 2050 total ac, they're sacrifices I'll gladly make to no longer be a tanking<EM> <STRONG>reserve</STRONG>.</EM></P> <P><EM>Marsellus</EM></P> <P><EM>37th Monk of Guk.</EM></P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Justin21 on <span class=date_text>12-06-2004</span> <span class=time_text>10:16 PM</span>

[Zadkiel3]

I think they have given monks a very useful and interesting role in group tanking, one which should make them quite highly desired.A monk is not a tank, but what a monk does is MAKE YOUR TANK BETTER.A DPS melee class with decent utility, who boosts the tanking abilities of your tank.Tests have shown that using bare fists (i.e. no weapon equiped in primary) is only about 10% less effective than using good weapon(s). When you consider that only about 1/3 of your damage comes from weapon DPS and the rest from combat arts, that means you only lose about 3% of your damage output. Put a shield in secondary to boost your AC and blocking skills, and cast staggering stance on the Main Tank, and suddenly you are blocking his damage like crazy, while still putting out a lot (almost certainly out-damaging him).I like it. A lot. A good group asset.Zadkiel.

[Justin]

<DIV>    always teh double post.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Justin21 on <span class=date_text>12-07-2004</span> <span class=time_text>02:23 PM</span>

[Justin]

<DIV>     You do realize, I hope, that all fighter classes receive this ability under a different name. This is hardly a new "very useful and interesting role" for monks. Nor will it make monks "quite highly desired."</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Brawler- Staggering Stance(L 1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> : Allows the brawler to shield their allies from attacks and increases the brawler's agility.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Warrior- Stand Firm(L 1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />: Allows the warrior to shield allies from attacks.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Crusader- Ancient Pledge(L 1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />: Allows the crusader to shield his allies from attacks and increases the defense of his shielded allies.</DIV> <DIV> <HR>      I honestly don't see why everyone is so desperate to turn monks into a second-rate fighter. I chose this archetype because I wanted the control to lead and direct groups. Perhaps you need the comfort of having someone else to rely on to make those calls, but it's not true for all of us. Please, stop trying to limit the rest of us with your opinions of what a monk cannot do.</DIV>

[asteldian]

<DIV>Due to deflection being broken, fixed, broken again, its hard to know really just how effective we are at tanking.  One things for sure, teh whole shield thing sucks, i wish they'd given it as an ability to bracers or even natural ability-monk with shield very uncool and how i look matters to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When all is working properly if monks really are terrible at tanking it needs tos be seen to, no we cant be as reliable and good as plate classes, but that should not mean we cant be a good tank.  If avoidance isnt enough then they should consider giving the monk natural improved mitigation, obviously leaving it far behind the mitigation the plate tanks are getting from their armor, but closing the gap enough to allow a monk to tank</DIV>

[Yinmaren]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Justin21 wrote:<BR> <DIV>     </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Brawler- Staggering Stance(L 1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> : Allows the brawler to shield their allies from attacks and increases the brawler's agility.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Warrior- Stand Firm(L 1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />: Allows the warrior to shield allies from attacks.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Crusader- Ancient Pledge(L 1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />: Allows the crusader to shield his allies from attacks and increases the defense of his shielded allies.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The main difference between these 3 skills are the following: Staggering stance not only raises mitigation, but also has equal chance to block as the crusader and warriors skill does. The warrior skill is the worse out of the three and the Crusaders only raises AC.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IMHO Mitigation+Chance to them not hit tank>AC+Chance to not hit tank. The AC is so nominal that the mitigation is easily better.</DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ ___________________________________________</DIV> <DIV>I personally think fighting with a shield as a monk looks cool. I would much rather have a shield (which can have stats) and my fists than just have a staff which can have stats and no added AC. While your look could mean alot to you, you look even dumb dead and even dumber when your group dies.</DIV>

[netswine]

<DIV>First, I would like to point out that I personally would love to trade some of my defensive and taunting skills for more DPS.  Scouts should not be unilaterally the melee damage kings. They get a lot of utility skills that offset any balancing issues, and I do not see any groups choosing a brawler over a scout if brawlers dished out more DPS than they currently do. I knew that I was not going to be a huge damage dealer when I created this toon, but that did not deter me. Monks just look too cooI. I still hope that the EQ2 design team will see the light :smileytongue: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the topic at hand, I had a pretty funny situation happen to me last night. I was invited to a pick-up group that intended to take Grolven Chiptooth in Antonica. The group consisted of: 19 Warrior (MT), 19 Crusader (ST), 20 Summoner, 17'ish scout, 16 druid, and me a 19 brawler. After buffing up, the warrior pulls Chiptooth and proceeds to lose health very quick rate. The druid was having a very hard time keeping him off the red. Some time later, the warrior dies with Chiptooth at 3/4 health. The Crusader quickly taunts Chiptooth and repeats the warriors fate. The druid was just having a hard time getting the heals to refresh on time before the tanks got killled. With Chiptooth at a bit over 1/2 health, and the summoner crying for retreat, I engaged the gnoll thinking to give the druid enough time to run to the Blackburrow entrance. An this is when the funny thing happened. I was surviving! I would get hit, and get hit harder than the other tanks, but a lot less often, giving the Druid enough time to refresh the heals and keep me alive. We ended up killing Chiptooth right on top of the corpses of the warrior and the crusader.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know this was entirely situational, and obviously at these levels its a whole different ball game from 20+, but perhaps this was how the developers intended monk tanking to be throughout all the levels, yet have not been able to implement it. Either way, I still stand firm by my opinion that we should be a DPS class and not a tank, fighter class or no fighter class.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[GangsterFi]

well, I am almost level 35 now. I have done some tanking in some higher level areas, and I can pull it off. However, not anywhere as equal as any other tanks.That is the sole point of this thread. Yes, monks can tank, but they are just not equal. However using group tactics is always a plus with your monk. Have a guardian buff you out or if you are playing back up tank buff out the plate tank. I find it very effective when I group with my zerker guildmate. I cast my deflection buffs on him and he doesn't hit nearly as much, even against mobs 6 lvls higher than him. As for the shields, I don't think it looks very cool, but I'll use them for the AC. Also, I think that the light armor drops are busted. As a monk I am collecting full sets of chian an plate armor from runnyeye because all the people in my group already have the armor they need from the zone. Then I get stuck trying to trade my medium and plate armor for light armor to someone. I mean the drop tables in this game are kinda messed up. The light armor I do have I cannot use until I am level 42ish. That doesn't make sense.They need to tweak the monk. I'd say slightly more DPS, and little mitigation with deflection as it is currently. Obviously, it will be a significant amount less mitigation than a plate tank. Remember I am not asking monks to be uber, I am asking them to be equal.I will post a full set of tactics that I have found useful with the monk and other classes when I have the time to do so.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GangsterFist wrote:<BR>well, I am almost level 35 now. I have done some tanking in some higher level areas, and I can pull it off. However, not anywhere as equal as any other tanks.<BR><BR>That is the sole point of this thread. Yes, monks can tank, but they are just not equal. However using group tactics is always a plus with your monk. Have a guardian buff you out or if you are playing back up tank buff out the plate tank. I find it very effective when I group with my zerker guildmate. I cast my deflection buffs on him and he doesn't hit nearly as much, even against mobs 6 lvls higher than him. <BR><BR>As for the shields, I don't think it looks very cool, but I'll use them for the AC. Also, I think that the light armor drops are busted. As a monk I am collecting full sets of chian an plate armor from runnyeye because all the people in my group already have the armor they need from the zone. Then I get stuck trying to trade my medium and plate armor for light armor to someone. I mean the drop tables in this game are kinda messed up. The light armor I do have I cannot use until I am level 42ish. That doesn't make sense.<BR><BR>They need to tweak the monk. I'd say slightly more DPS, and little mitigation with deflection as it is currently. Obviously, it will be a significant amount less mitigation than a plate tank. Remember I am not asking monks to be uber, I am asking them to be equal.<BR><BR>I will post a full set of tactics that I have found useful with the monk and other classes when I have the time to do so.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Plenty of light armor drops in RE.  Did you do the quests for the nice pants and chest?  I currently use a very-light helm/gloves because I like the stats and the hit on AC isn't that big, but my chest/sleeves/pants are all stat'd light armor for 32-38.</P> <P>I have a full suit of armor ready for 42+ as well and some nice cestii.</P> <P>I should be 36 by the end of the night tonight I'd guess.</P> <P>Still very happy with my monk.<BR></P>

[GangsterFi]

I did the bp and the legs quest. Lost the light armor boots that drop from the elite (the engraved leather boots) to a druid. I will not sacrifice the ac hit from very light armor from the light armor. The very light boots that drop there are 15 less ac than i currently have. However, I do have a full set of the spellbound medium armor, and the blackened plate armor in my bank because all the tanks and clerics in my guild have pretty much full sets now. So, if you are on my server and want to trade some level 35+ light armor for some medium or heavy send me a tell.I have a bunch of level 42 + armor and accessories from RE. I got boots, bracer, neck, 3 wrists, helmet for 42+. However, due to the fact that I have almost a full set of medium and heavy means that light doesn't drop nearly enough.

[Huflu]

<DIV>Looking at the skills that a monk gets, this is the way I perceive sony's vision of a monk in EQ2.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are not the best dps and we are not the best tanks, however through the use of our various matial art stances I think we are designed to fill the role of either position - that of a dps or a tank.  If this was in fact the way it was intended I personally think that's awsome.  I would gladly give up the title of "the best" to have the option of being either.  What really kills me is you guys saying that you would give up some of our tanking abilities for more damage.  Why?  If you wanted a dps class then why didn't you make a wizard or a scout?  Why did you choose a subclass in fighter if you wanted to be dps??  I don't want to give up my tanking.  I think most of you assumed that the monk would be like a monk in EQ1 or EQLive.  Its not the same game.  Don't assume the same priniciples apply.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just the other day I was completing my EL access quests and was doing the boat ride.  We had a level 28 paladin that was tanking for us.  During the fight he was knocked to the other side of the boat outside of healer range and died.  Earlier in the fight I had thrown off a shout and a taunt on the demon - "just in case".  So after the paladin went down, I, of course, got agro.  I spam the word heal a couple of times and drag the demon/skeletons to the middle of the boat.  I tanked them, the healers kept me healed, and the big demon went down.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In this moment, I was really proud of my class.  I was glad that I was able to fill in the role of the tank and see the fight through till the end.  Do I want to give this up?  No!  If had to pick between tanking and dps, I'd choose tanking, but as I was saying earlier I think SOE designed us to fill in the role of either.  Just look at our martial arts stances - we have some that boost all of our defensive abilities but kills our offense; we have some that boost our offense but kills our defense.  It makes sense to me that they intended for us to use these stances to assume the role of either position.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the monk still needs a bit of tweaking, but once they get these "kinks" worked out we'll be an extremely fun class to play.  I love having options and that seems to be what a monk was designed for.  If you want to be dps, go make a scout or a nuker.  Me?  Im sticking with versatility.</DIV>

[netswine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Huflung wrote:<BR> <DIV>....</DIV> <DIV>We are not the best dps and we are not the best tanks, however through the use of our various matial art stances I think we are designed to fill the role of either position - that of a dps or a tank.  If this was in fact the way it was intended I personally think that's awsome.  I would gladly give up the title of "the best" to have the option of being either.  What really kills me is you guys saying that you would give up some of our tanking abilities for more damage.  Why?  If you wanted a dps class then why didn't you make a wizard or a scout?  Why did you choose a subclass in fighter if you wanted to be dps??  I don't want to give up my tanking.  I think most of you assumed that the monk would be like a monk in EQ1 or EQLive.  Its not the same game.  Don't assume the same priniciples apply.</DIV> <DIV>....</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Perhaps I should have made myself more clear. I knew when I created the monk that I was not going to be the DPS king. Obviously, If I wanted to be the super damage dealer, I would have made a wizzy or an assasin. Yet, as a personal opinion, I rather not tank at all and be a pure dps class. If I could have made a scout that fought kung-fu style, then I would have gone with it 100%, but it is only wishful thinking. If that is how they portrayed monks in EQ1, oh well, I could not care less. I play EQ2.</P> <P>Also, beleive me when I say this, right now monks do very good damage. I am not complaining about that. As soon as deflection gets fixed, I bet that we will be great secondary tanks and excellent DPS, which seems to be the original vision for monks in EQ2.</P> <P> </P> <P> <BR></P>

[asteldian]

<DIV>Sadly the monk will always be a hard class to keep good-it will forever be hitting balance issues, why? For the same reason you like it-being able to do both DPS and tank, eventually there is a good chance we'll find ourselves wanting upgrades to our tanking or our DPS due to neither cutting it by game standards, as result we will have the other tanks complain and scouts complain resulting in us being stuck.  This is what happened with the paladin in EQ1, everytime something was requested warriors and clerics complained and eventually the paladin was a poor class.  So yes the utility is great, but it comes at high risk of becoming nothing</DIV>

[Cora]

<DIV>I soloed a red ^^ from orange hp to dead while my group wiped today (^: Clay golem in Varsoon. I suprisingly took almost no damage, but that was with martial focus and toughness doing in brawler's stance. Of course, earlier I tanked a spider and both healers were at half power from healing me - avoidance spike dps strikes again!</DIV>

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Coraz2 wrote:<DIV>I soloed a red ^^ from orange hp to dead while my group wiped today (^: Clay golem in Varsoon. I suprisingly took almost no damage, but that was with martial focus and toughness doing in brawler's stance. Of course, earlier I tanked a spider and both healers were at half power from healing me - avoidance spike dps strikes again!</div><hr></blockquote>U soloed a ++ red? i don't beleive that. Maybe you were totally buffed out, and at the end of the fight everyone wiped but you and you were able to finish the mob off. You may have picked up the slack but that was with all your buffs and the debuffs that had been casted on the mob. I wouldn't really consider that soloing at all.<p>Message Edited by GangsterFist on <span class=date_text>12-10-2004</span> <span class=time_text>01:58 PM</span>

[EgilRon]

<DIV>As a 26 Defiler, I notice a HUUUGGGGGEEEEE difference if I have to heal a Bruiser class compared to a Warrior class.  The Bruiser is sooooo much easier to heal than the Warriors it isn't even funny.  Mobs that I need to slow then spam ward ward insta ward ward insta ward ward insta oop turn into slow ward pick nose pick nose some more ward pick nose ward ward dead.  You guys can tank fine, and in fact, if you only have a Shaman as your healer, make sure you tank, as it is SOOOOOOO incredibly easier.  If your group is beeing dumb, get them to run a couple tests.  Guaranteed the Shaman will want a Monk tank for the rest of the game afterwards.</DIV>

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>EgilRonin wrote:<DIV>As a 26 Defiler, I notice a HUUUGGGGGEEEEE difference if I have to heal a Bruiser class compared to a Warrior class. The Bruiser is sooooo much easier to heal than the Warriors it isn't even funny. Mobs that I need to slow then spam ward ward insta ward ward insta ward ward insta oop turn into slow ward pick nose pick nose some more ward pick nose ward ward dead. You guys can tank fine, and in fact, if you only have a Shaman as your healer, make sure you tank, as it is SOOOOOOO incredibly easier. If your group is beeing dumb, get them to run a couple tests. Guaranteed the Shaman will want a Monk tank for the rest of the game afterwards.</div><hr></blockquote>Yes the shaman + brawler combo is good. However, at higher levels when wards get chewed through by mobs its not as effective. However, wards have saved my butt many times as a monk, I won't deny that. My berserker guildmate is the same level I am and his deflection is pretty much as good as mine. He hardly gets hit, and if I use my martial buff on him for deflection its even that much better. So, really the same thing can be accomplished with out a monk. Guardians get a series of skills along the ally line which also raise deflection bonuses. So, you can do this exact same thing with many different classes. The problem is most of the plate tanks you group probably don't know about these things, and therefore never try them out. Next time you get a group going with a zerker and a monk, have the monk use the deflection buffs on the zerker and let them main tank. You will get better resuls with avoidance + heavy plate mitigation + ward + slow on the mob + zerker haste.

[Oidan]

<DIV>I keep seeing people say it doesn't look cool to have a shield. First i will agree that looking cool is well, looking cool but that is a lil off topic when you are talking asthetics. Tanking is the topic. Do ya tank better with a beefy shield? Yes you do. It adds ac = mitigation and also give you a bonus to blocking = avoidance. Yeah you do lose dps but that is the tradeoff. If you dont feel comfortable tanking or just plain dont want to tank for whatever reason then grab a plate class, throw up your offensive buffs and dual wield.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I 80% of the time grp with folks in my guild. If I grp with a plate class, I make them the MA. Why? because if I tank, we lose dps. Less dps over time means loss of exp over time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can only speak up to my level which is only 26 but so far I have not had a prob with tanking. And yes I agree a shaman type is the choice healer for the brawler class.</DIV>

[Cora]

<DIV>I meant I was off on the side tanking it and happened to kill it while rest of group was killing the other one. I assumed you would take 'solo' and 'rest of group' and assume that's what I was doing. No I didn't happen to find a magically at 2/5 hp red^^ to solo.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Coraz2 on <span class=date_text>12-11-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:33 PM</span>

[Versain]

<DIV>This was taken from an interview with Moorgard at <A href="http://www.brawlers-pit.com" target=_blank>www.brawlers-pit.com</A>. <!--StartFragment --></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Z: When we reach 20, our deflection skill raises by 40 points, but the cap value doesn't raise with it. For most monks this results in deflection skill being listed at 139/100 and no skill gain can be achieved until level 28 when the cap reaches 140. Is this intentional? Are we getting the effect of those extra skill points while they are higher than the cap?</EM><BR><BR><STRONG>M: It's a bug that ends up benefiting monks and bruisers. We'll be fixing it, but for now it provides additional deflection from levels 20 to 28. Enjoy it!</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV>

[RioR]

<DIV>Just jumping in here at the end.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am in the school of thought that all fighters should be able to tank as equally well as possible. I mean it is just a video game so it will not be perfect. Right now there is too much of a gap between the fighters as far as who is the better MT. The gap needs to be closed as much as possible. I have followed this game for 2 years. The archetype concept means that any group should want any fighter to be MT. I hope SOE fixes the problems soon. The archetype system is the biggest reason why I wanted to play this game. I don't want to find out at level 40 that I picked the wrong class and is now stuck as "2nd tank". I will be upset if SOE can not make this system work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just a friendly crusader. </DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RioRio wrote:<BR> <DIV>Just jumping in here at the end.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am in the school of thought that all fighters should be able to tank as equally well as possible. I mean it is just a video game so it will not be perfect. Right now there is too much of a gap between the fighters as far as who is the better MT. The gap needs to be closed as much as possible. I have followed this game for 2 years. The archetype concept means that any group should want any fighter to be MT. I hope SOE fixes the problems soon. The archetype system is the biggest reason why I wanted to play this game. I don't want to find out at level 40 that I picked the wrong class and is now stuck as "2nd tank". I will be upset if SOE can not make this system work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just a friendly crusader. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm tanking just fine as a lvl 40 monk.<BR>

[GangsterFi]

Well, monks can tank. The purpose of this thread was about making them equal tanks. I tank all the time in 3 and 4 man groups in RE, RV, feerott, zek, ect. However, its just xp grinding groups. If we do anything challenging with mobs that hit really hard and really fast, the better tank to have in the plate tank. The ability to hold aggro, take damage (or avoid it for monks/bruisers), and do it well is not equal among any of the fighter archetypes. There is a balancing issue, and that is what I am addressing.Also, 1 level difference does not make a huge difference as to you were suggesting. @ lvl 37 I should tank slightly less par to a lvl 38 zerker, but the difference is way more there. I have proven this fact with pulling multiple social groups. The zerker can tank, and mititage and avoid damage to make a better over all tank. Consider it a stress test, or something to a bit of extreme. This situation happens though. Lets say you are in a fairly busy dungeon with many groups running around the place. One group next to you evacs (which happens quite often), and then their social they were fighting is pretty much instantly full health and full power and aggro towards you. You, now have about 15+ mobs attacking you. A zerker out performs a monk everytime (at equal lvl with the same lvl of equipment) in this situation. Which means a zerker/guardian can tank more than a monk. They can take on more mobs at once and do it effectively.I have been crafting last couple of days trying to get myself to make teir 4 jewelry, so im stil lvl 38, and I have not had any major troubles tanking in a xp grind group. However, there is no way its equal like its suppose to be, and how SOE stated it should be.I get clerics from time to time in pick up groups who refuse to join me cuz im a monk. However, I have had clerics heal me as the only healer and im the only tank, and it worked fine. The problem here is not the monk, its the cleric. The cleric uses the plate tank as a crutch and does not know how to play his/her class well enough to change tactics for an avoidance tank.I have been patient through beta ( i played a monk in beta - not a buffed out one, one from ground up) and throughout the live version. SOE has been coding plate tanks for almost 6 years now, the avoidance tank is something new to them. It will probably take some time to even it out. So, expect that as a monk you will not tank at the same level as a plate tank, but don't get too discouraged because you can tank. There will be naysayers and elitists, but thats with anything, and any game. If a priest turns you down for a pick up group because you are not a plate tank, you are probably better off with out them. They are probably a bad healer and cannot handle healing a monk (which with the right tactics is NOT hard, nor is it way different than a plate tank).I think I have said all that I wanted too, plus some. I think I am done with this thread. Just remember, there are tons and tons of tactics out there. Try getting a guardian to buff you out and let you main tank. In some situations its better that way. Try being back up tank to a zerker, martial disciple the zerker and let him tank, it works wonders (and I block a lot of hits for other tanks when doing this). Have the cleric debuff the mob with their reactive heals. If its debuffed it won't hit you as hard so you won't spike quite as much. Hopefully here in the near future the avoidance tank will be something of equal par to a plate tank in holding aggro, tanking, handling large crowds of mobs, ect. Just remember plate tanks have had 6 years of coding and developement behind them from EQ1, avoidance tanks are a new concept. It also depends on your group tactics. I just get three wizzards in my group now and AE nuke everything. Stuff dies so fast you dont even really need a healer in the group. Or 3 wiz + 1 chanter chain AE stunning the mobs. While the wiz nuke and you dps. I don't even bother tanking when I don't have to, I just do tons and tons of DPS and kill whole groups of mobs in matters of seconds.

[Ashk]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Versaint_ wrote:<BR> <DIV>This was taken from an interview with Moorgard at <A href="http://www.brawlers-pit.com/" target=_blank>www.brawlers-pit.com</A>. <!--StartFragment --></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Z: When we reach 20, our deflection skill raises by 40 points, but the cap value doesn't raise with it. For most monks this results in deflection skill being listed at 139/100 and no skill gain can be achieved until level 28 when the cap reaches 140. Is this intentional? Are we getting the effect of those extra skill points while they are higher than the cap?</EM><BR><BR><STRONG>M: It's a bug that ends up benefiting monks and bruisers. We'll be fixing it, but for now it provides additional deflection from levels 20 to 28. Enjoy it!</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> So wait, first our deflection was broken and not doing enough, and now its doing too much? What the heck? I'd really had to see how it is normally....

[Graz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm 10% from 29 and I have no problem getting groups or being MT, as long as I have a shammy<STRONG> and a good fighter to intervene.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've been tanking all the way up the levels, even Giants and the like in TS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I love the Monk class.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Boldface added above for emphasis.</P> <P> </P> <P>Yes, monks make great tanks if the group is smart. </P> <P>Unfortunately, pickup groups rarely contain that many smart people.</P> <P>This makes tanking in pickup groups difficult. Average, or even average+, players simply aren't skilled enough to make a monk tank work. It takes GOOD players. </P> <P>No offense Gage, but, as a high-play-time, higher-level player, the people you group with are usually smart enough to handle that strat. That totally changes when you move down to the lower-play-time lower-level players.</P> <P>Take a normal pickup group I encounter and throw a guardian in. Correct strat, as you said said, is to have the monk tank and the guardian intervene. Now, try to get a random pickup group to do that. Ha. Most people insist the non-monk tank even if he's three levels lower. BTW that happens several times a week -- I'm not exagerating. Most wont even TRY even if I explain it. Urrgh get hit! ElfiyWelfy heal! That's about as complicated as they get. Its very frustrating.</P> <P>So my main problem with monk tanking is that its not practical in an average group. Depending on groupies to be average would be fine ... needing them to be brainiacs, just to get the tanking job done ... that's not right. Other tank classes do not require a specialized strats or specific group line-ups to do their job, it seems unfair that the monk class does.</P> <P>Maybe I just suffer from this more than others. My playtime is irregular and I depend 99% on pickup groups.</P>

[mja1983]

im only a level 21 monk so i cant say anyhting about higher levels but for me now i ahve had no real trouble getting a group and havent had any trouble tanking, people seem to be doing ALLOT of complaning on the thread but as far as i can see its not sony thats at fault here but the players, monk is a perfectly viable tank class theres nothing wrong with but it is very different from every other game in how it tanks i think if we give people more time to get used to it things will average out, the general play on eq2 is stil extremly biased by eq1 people are making assumptions and so there are many cleric and warrior based people as they think somehow these are the best classes, its not sonys fault if people are to stupid to use what they give us there not magicans.another thing for tanking is the moronic idea that your group has to be fighting mobs of a way higher level then you and this is also ludicrious you could just as easily kill tons of lower mobs maybe you can get just as good experience the hgihest mob isnt always best, so what if we cant tank red mobs (whcih i dont mean to be true but people think it) we are certinly then able to tank lower mobs the best as we can easily avoid them and out damage any other fighterdont whine about what you cant do just do what you can doanother thing is in response to the randomness of avoidance tanking thing is 1 way i have found to use feign is that if i do hit red and am in danger of death i fegin to let the healer get there heal off and the pop back up before anyone dies majorly and am tanking again, all the mobs run right back to me, like moorgrad said fegin is meant to save your lifeanyways any who choose to be a monk because they wanted to be a monk is a [Removed for Content], you choose to be a monk because you are a monk, be the monk dont play the monk, this is a role playing game, NOT a fit the niche game, always remember fighters are fighters not tanks thats a load of crap players inventedin conclusion the biggest peoblem i see with monks is not monks but moronic people, i feel also allot of the monks cnat tank flack comes from monks, i have seen on 2 ocations monks shouting in ooc for a tank to join their group these people should be burned at the stake~~

[Graz]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mja1983ca wrote:<BR>im only a level 21 monk so i cant say anyhting about higher levels but for me now i ahve had no real trouble getting a group and havent had any trouble tanking, <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yes, at level 21 you've had the benefit of the abnormally huge deflection increase monks gets at level 20. That bonus slowly disappears over the next several levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW that huge bonus is going away in the patch, so you may want to re-evaluate.</DIV>

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Grazel wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR>Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><DIV>I'm 10% from 29 and I have no problem getting groups or being MT, as long as I have a shammy<STRONG> and a good fighter to intervene.</STRONG></DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I've been tanking all the way up the levels, even Giants and the like in TS.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I love the Monk class.</DIV><BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Boldface added above for emphasis.</P><P> </P><P>Yes, monks make great tanks if the group is smart. </P><P>Unfortunately, pickup groups rarely contain that many smart people.</P><P>This makes tanking in pickup groups difficult. Average, or even average+, players simply aren't skilled enough to make a monk tank work. It takes GOOD players. </P><P>No offense Gage, but, as a high-play-time, higher-level player, the people you group with are usually smart enough to handle that strat. That totally changes when you move down to the lower-play-time lower-level players.</P><P>Take a normal pickup group I encounter and throw a guardian in. Correct strat, as you said said, is to have the monk tank and the guardian intervene. Now, try to get a random pickup group to do that. Ha. Most people insist the non-monk tank even if he's three levels lower. BTW that happens several times a week -- I'm not exagerating. Most wont even TRY even if I explain it. Urrgh get hit! ElfiyWelfy heal! That's about as complicated as they get. Its very frustrating.</P><P>So my main problem with monk tanking is that its not practical in an average group. Depending on groupies to be average would be fine ... needing them to be brainiacs, just to get the tanking job done ... that's not right. Other tank classes do not require a specialized strats or specific group line-ups to do their job, it seems unfair that the monk class does.</P><P>Maybe I just suffer from this more than others. My playtime is irregular and I depend 99% on pickup groups.</P><hr></blockquote>See thats the thing, plate tanks don't need someone to intervine, they can tank better. That is my whole point, that monks do not tank equally. All I wanted from this thread is equality, not uberness.

[Gaige]

<DIV>I made that statement over 11 lvls ago, and it no longer applies.  I tank just fine.</DIV>

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<DIV>I made that statement over 11 lvls ago, and it no longer applies. I tank just fine.</div><hr></blockquote>Ummmm, thats the whole point, you had to make a tank intervine on you to tank. Now at the level 40+ game its different. Now that I am lvl 42 I can tank TONS better than when I was level 29 to 38. There are still balancing issues. Just because you do not need that now, still does not mean that tanks from previous 11 levels are balanced. They need to balance it out a bit more so that everyone can group effeciently and level. Luckily for you and me Gage, is that we group with our guild mates, so we are always in good groups. For every solo person out there, thats just not always an option. Yeah at level 42 I have about 1600ish AC unbuffed and like 3k HP unbuffed. Add avoidance factors and good group tactics, yeah monks work great, even preferable over others at times.With out that, there is a balance issue, and IMO it needs to be looked into for the less fortunate people who are not guilded and don't have the benefit of grouping with the same people over and over.

[Gaige]

<DIV>Nah, my guild is avg lvl 18, I never group with them actually.  I had a static from 29 to 40, but not all the other lvls, I play mostly pickup <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Wana]

<DIV>I said this in one of my post a about a week ago and i was flamed everyone said i had no skill etc etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I pointed out that our avoidence skills were not working correctly and how from playing my guardian and comparing it to my monk lvl by lvl my guardian was by far the better tank it was not even a contest.  Fact of the matter is the monk at the moment is a non needed class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you look at it when setting up a group for xp lets say 25+</DIV> <DIV>Guardian/Zerker/pal/sk (last two are last choice)</DIV> <DIV>Shaman</DIV> <DIV>Cleric/druid</DIV> <DIV>Scout type any will do purley for escape and dps</DIV> <DIV>Wiz/warlock</DIV> <DIV>Enchanter/bard</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is a pretty solid group setup good combo of healing and dps, and CC and or Mana regan lower down time</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now where monks problem is we are considered dps for most xp groups at lvl 25 all scouts types get escape that is a must for any xp group really that is your safty from hugh grp wipes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have noticed when i was power lvling my monk after get the game a week later then expected i caught up with all of the higher lvl monk on my server i got fed up with the monks lack or role and abilty, now every now and then i do a /who all monk out of the 5 of us who was smashing thro the lvl's at the start i only ever see 1 still playing, and with my other 3 other charecter i have alrdy caught up some of the monks who was a a few lvls behind us</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only way to really lvl your monk past 25 is with stactic groups or soloing lot hoping that somone takes sympathy on you</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[GangsterFi]

<blockquote><hr>Wanand wrote:<DIV>I said this in one of my post a about a week ago and i was flamed everyone said i had no skill etc etc.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>I pointed out that our avoidence skills were not working correctly and how from playing my guardian and comparing it to my monk lvl by lvl my guardian was by far the better tank it was not even a contest. Fact of the matter is the monk at the moment is a non needed class. </div><DIV> </div><DIV>If you look at it when setting up a group for xp lets say 25+</div><DIV>Guardian/Zerker/pal/sk (last two are last choice)</div><DIV>Shaman</div><DIV>Cleric/druid</div><DIV>Scout type any will do purley for escape and dps</div><DIV>Wiz/warlock</div><DIV>Enchanter/bard</div><DIV> </div><DIV>That is a pretty solid group setup good combo of healing and dps, and CC and or Mana regan lower down time</div><DIV> </div><DIV>Now where monks problem is we are considered dps for most xp groups at lvl 25 all scouts types get escape that is a must for any xp group really that is your safty from hugh grp wipes.</div><DIV> </div><DIV>I have noticed when i was power lvling my monk after get the game a week later then expected i caught up with all of the higher lvl monk on my server i got fed up with the monks lack or role and abilty, now every now and then i do a /who all monk out of the 5 of us who was smashing thro the lvl's at the start i only ever see 1 still playing, and with my other 3 other charecter i have alrdy caught up some of the monks who was a a few lvls behind us</div><DIV> </div><DIV>The only way to really lvl your monk past 25 is with stactic groups or soloing lot hoping that somone takes sympathy on you</div><DIV> </div><hr></blockquote>Well, for one, you could always make the group yourself. When I am with out guildmates (which is rare) I start up my own group and seek out people I need for my group. Personally I like lots of DPS so I seek out to have multiple scouts/wizards. I can only tell you that at 40+ the monk gets a lot better. Its getting to level 40+ is the hard part.Wonglevel 42 monkKithicor