Zerk Raid Tank AA [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Kannab

12-13-2006, 04:47 AM

<DIV> For a zerk raid tank -> Tank Duties = Stay Alive + Hold Agro I respected recently and gave up the buckler (double attack) and the DPS and extra mit from the STA/WIS lines. So now my question to all zerkers is… What is the best fighter AA set up to achieve the above equation considering you have high end gear, and good people backing you up, post EoF??? It seems to me that the AGI and STR lines is the way to go for a zerk tank. <OL> <LI>AGI = Stay Alive... Extra AGI and DEF for avoidance; Short duration parry 100% attacks; </LI> <LI>STR = Hold Agro… Extra STR and Crits (higher DPS); Extra hate gain (up to 10%), extra attack when using axe</LI></OL> How I came to this conclusion was by process of elimination… There is no reason to choose WIS line asides from the extra DPS AA, which is not reason enough (and the belly smash was cool, but useless against epic mobs). The extra 300+ mit only translates to 1.2% increase in mit. (at least for me) The end line of wisdom line seems good but I think they can be better spent somewhere else. WIS does a bit of both agro and keep you alive but neither very well. So WIS is out! Now INT will give you haste which = Higher dps, and parry which = higher avoidance. So like WIS, the INT line does two jobs but neither very well. It is neither full hold agro nor staying alive. So INT is Out! The STA line. Against higher level mobs the buckler was doing OK. However it will never outperform a Tower shield, and thus wont have the same avoidance results, nor stats and will always give healers a harder time. So really the only reason why we use the buckler in the first place is for the double attack which = DPS which = hold agro. However, the STR line can add to your DPS and agro and serve the same purpose without compromising the tower shield. So STA is out! Now this only leaves STR and AGI. My take is that AGI is a great line. I’ve never even looked at it until now (of course I was forced to look at it after the EoF changes). However, it gives you DEF and extra AGI for added avoidance, and gives you the short duration parry (end line AA) which is a life saver if you know how and when to use this (and the reuse timer is not half bad). On top it even throws in an AE for added DPS, however its main purpose is to increase your survivability more than any other line. So AGI = Stay Alive. STR will give ya the extra STR and an extra attack (if using axe), also a Crit % chance, and extra hate (up to 10%). All this = Hold Agro. The STR line is not meant to do anything else but to increase your damage rating and keep hate on you. So this is the other part of the equation that fits the best. There are many ways you can look at it. Other AA combos work well also. I’ve tried every single combo possible and have been able to tank and DPS just fine. However, this post is about OPTIMIZING the AA’s to achieve the TANK DUTIES in the best possible manner. Based on the above process it would seem to me that the STR and AGI line seem the way to go. Thoughts... </DIV>Message Edited by Kannabis on 12-15-2006 09:58 AM

Kage8

12-13-2006, 06:04 AM

Nice well thought out post.Couple thoughts....Id take the haste + parry increase over the def and (weak) 24% to hit more than one enemy, wich by the way if your useing a shield then your useing a 1h weapon. Thats realitivly low DR (compared to a 2h) and the auto attack on more than one mob is based on your DR.Although the extra agi you need to get downthe line is nice, but i like the haste for dps/agro.My thought on the sta line directly (I have been considering droping it myself) are as follows....Im not JUST a tank. I like to offtank dps sometimes as well and sta line gives me the most dps i can get.Your build sounds great for a just tank build, but ask yourself this....Is it maby time to betray?I like the Zerker because i can tank and dps not as well at the T1's but well enough to make me happy. If your Just ganna tank id say Guardian is for you....Just one Zerkers thoughts.<div></div>

Kannab

12-13-2006, 07:37 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kage848 wrote: Nice well thought out post. Couple thoughts.... Id take the haste + parry increase over the def and (weak) 24% to hit more than one enemy, wich by the way if your useing a shield then your useing a 1h weapon. Thats realitivly low DR (compared to a 2h) and the auto attack on more than one mob is based on your DR. Although the extra agi you need to get downthe line is nice, but i like the haste for dps/agro. My thought on the sta line directly (I have been considering droping it myself) are as follows.... Im not JUST a tank. I like to offtank dps sometimes as well and sta line gives me the most dps i can get. Your build sounds great for a just tank build, but ask yourself this.... Is it maby time to betray? I like the Zerker because i can tank and dps not as well at the T1's but well enough to make me happy. If your Just ganna tank id say Guardian is for you.... Just one Zerkers thoughts. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> 1. My opinion on the INT for haste is that in a tank raid group you dont really need the haste line to max out your haste. This will come automatically with buffs, gear, and going zerk. you will automatically be at over 100% haste which = agro without spending AA points on haste. So the AA points you just put to increase your haste just went out the window. Now the only real advantage for putting points into the INT line would be for the parry. IMO it would be a waste to spend so many points just to get to increase parry skill because you are not riping the most benefits out of the entire INT line at all, just the one parry skill. So now you end up spending 4 poitns in INT another 4 in haste, another 4 in more haste and 8 in parry. so you just spent 20 AA points just to get an extra 16 points into your parry skill. The AGI skill which lets you hit multiple targets up to 24% is unmatched. The reason being that no existing outside buff from any other class (other than the zerkers own) will let you do this. This is a unique skill. Haste is not, and can be given as a buff to you by several other classes. 2. As to offtanking and just doign DPS, you will be surprised what you can do with a good two hander instead of a buckler and one hander. I dont always tank. In fact im not even the guilds MT, so indeed much of the time im just offtanking and DPS'ing which i like a lot. 2handers are ment to outdamage any other 1handed weapon if you are a zerk, as they should. On group encounters with a good fabled two hander averaging 1.3 to 1.6k DPS is normal with open wounds and destruction and a few other tricks. Peaked DPS at over 2.5K when all conditions are right. On single mobs you can average from 500-800 and go up to over 1K+ if you are not resited often. In fact I do more DPS with two hander than I ever did with 1 hander and buckler (with the 75% double attack). I like the zerker too much to betray because we can not only tank but we can also DPS, so we can fill both roles fairly well whenever it is needed.Message Edited by Kannabis on 12-12-2006 07:07 PM

Kage8

12-13-2006, 08:43 PM

Well as i never raid i dont know about that stuff but....When i used to use a 2h Pike of Pain 93DR i would dps nicely...But when i swicthed to sta line and Cudgle of pain my dps shot up big time....I have alwasy did more damage with sta line and have always out dps'd my other zerker friends. With 76% DA thats almost the same as duel wielding 2 CoP's.All things being equal i dont see how any 2h can out dps the sta line with the same quality of weapons.Only exception is when you use open wounds cause the damage you do on multiple mobs isbased off your AR so a 2h will do more damage. But other than that...<div></div>

FightGame

12-14-2006, 05:08 AM

Another reason haste is not so good...besides the fact that it is on some gear (unlike dps mod), we buff ourselves with 2 possibilities of it happening, and other classes buff you with it as well....but MOST IMPORTANTLY...the very fastest any weapon can swing is 0.8 seconds. So if you have a weapon that has a fast delay already....you essentially will cap haste very early. For example, I chose the piercing 1H claymore reward. It has like a 1.2 sec delay by default. If I have 30 points of haste (about 33%) which is very easy to get myself, I get down to the 0.8 second delay. If I have 200 points of haste (125%), I still only have 0.8 second delay. So, about 100% of haste completely worthless. So consider the delay on your favorite weapon before trying to stack on a bunch of haste. btw, if you're ever curious about your actual weapon speed, type /weaponstat Also, the 24% chance to AE auto attack in AGI line is not so great for a raid. It will help a tiny bit when clearing the trash, to dps and hold aggro, but thats about it. Most named encounters are 1 mob. And some named encounters that have more than 1 mob, you have to mezz, so shut this off. AFAIK, most types of avoidance...Base (which consists of defense + agility) and Parry, get scaled down against higher level mobs, against heroic^, ^^, and ^^^, and even more so, epics. Block (shield) does NOT. So, the 16 points of defense in AGI line, or the 17 points of parry in the INT line, end up being alot less when you're fighting the tough stuff. Also, alot of the big hits, which come from spells and/or AOE's are completely unavoidable so high avoidance + tower shield wouldn't help<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Combined with the fact that mitigation (once reaching 6000 or so) isn't worth much (in WIS line)...really only gives a raid MT one choice for KoS AA's, and even more so with limited worthwhile abilities in EoF tree - CRITS and DPS. I'm raid MT and plan on respeccing again tonight for 3rd time since EoF launch. I plan on STA 4-5-8-8 and STR 4-4-8-8 or possibly STA 4-5-8-8-8 and STR 4-4-8. The previous respec I took final in wis line to get 17 more melee skills in def. stance, but we just picked up a warden, who will be buffing me by about 65 or so...lol so 17 would be a wasted 8 points imo.Message Edited by FightGame on 12-13-2006 04:30 PM

Kannab

12-15-2006, 11:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FightGame wrote: Another reason haste is not so good...besides the fact that it is on some gear (unlike dps mod), we buff ourselves with 2 possibilities of it happening, and other classes buff you with it as well....but MOST IMPORTANTLY...the very fastest any weapon can swing is 0.8 seconds. So if you have a weapon that has a fast delay already....you essentially will cap haste very early. For example, I chose the piercing 1H claymore reward. It has like a 1.2 sec delay by default. If I have 30 points of haste (about 33%) which is very easy to get myself, I get down to the 0.8 second delay. If I have 200 points of haste (125%), I still only have 0.8 second delay. So, about 100% of haste completely worthless. So consider the delay on your favorite weapon before trying to stack on a bunch of haste. btw, if you're ever curious about your actual weapon speed, type /weaponstat Also, the 24% chance to AE auto attack in AGI line is not so great for a raid. It will help a tiny bit when clearing the trash, to dps and hold aggro, but thats about it. Most named encounters are 1 mob. And some named encounters that have more than 1 mob, you have to mezz, so shut this off. AFAIK, most types of avoidance...Base (which consists of defense + agility) and Parry, get scaled down against higher level mobs, against heroic^, ^^, and ^^^, and even more so, epics. Block (shield) does NOT. So, the 16 points of defense in AGI line, or the 17 points of parry in the INT line, end up being alot less when you're fighting the tough stuff. Also, alot of the big hits, which come from spells and/or AOE's are completely unavoidable so high avoidance + tower shield wouldn't help<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Combined with the fact that mitigation (once reaching 6000 or so) isn't worth much (in WIS line)...really only gives a raid MT one choice for KoS AA's, and even more so with limited worthwhile abilities in EoF tree - CRITS and DPS. I'm raid MT and plan on respeccing again tonight for 3rd time since EoF launch. I plan on STA 4-5-8-8 and STR 4-4-8-8 or possibly STA 4-5-8-8-8 and STR 4-4-8. The previous respec I took final in wis line to get 17 more melee skills in def. stance, but we just picked up a warden, who will be buffing me by about 65 or so...lol so 17 would be a wasted 8 points imo. Message Edited by FightGame on 12-13-2006 04:30 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> So, why choose STA asides from the STA points to increase your HP's? I dont see it would make sense to tank high end level mobs in EoF with a buckler when you have a qeynos guard. It just increasing your chances to taking a bigger whack. dont get me wrong i love the STA line. I think its probably the best one. But it not the best for EoF raids. yeah maybe for tanking KoS stuff or instances. but not against Emerald hall, freethinkers, or MM. ive tried it. your healers will keep you alive but at the cost of more powe, and getting hit more often and harder. in long battles this is definatly going to make a difference. IMO. Im just trying to make sense of it all. and figure out what is the better choice by logic. Yes AGI defese and parry matter less with higher level mobs but nonetheless they do sumting to keep you alive. more than sta. more than wis. STR is a must for agro. So what is the second best choice? I currently have my points spent on AGI and INT and i am at 60% mit. and 58% avoidance with 8.3k HP's self buffed. I think this not bad at all. Tanking has become much more predictable and those HP spikes have lessen significantly. Of course im planning on respecting to include STR. So what other line to choose? ive given this much thought and the only line that you can really take advantage of for RAID TANKING is AGI. Message Edited by Kannabis on 12-15-2006 10:27 AM

Renzai

12-15-2006, 11:32 PM

<DIV>I went INT since my parry was a lot lower than my def. That might change since they seem to have quite a bit of skill enhancements on gear in EoF.</DIV>

Bremer

12-16-2006, 02:52 AM

According to the devs there is no minimum weapon delay, not 0.8 seconds or whatever.<div></div>

FightGame

12-16-2006, 03:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote: According to the devs there is no minimum weapon delay, not 0.8 seconds or whatever. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> hmm would you happen to have a link to them saying this? Because using the /weaponstat command, I've never seen it lower than this..regardless how much more haste I stack on. Maybe the results from the command are wrong... I guess I could test using a parser, and/or looking in my combat logs by simply autoattacking with someone like a coercer buffing my haste, and shutting my berzerk procs off to get consistant data.

Bremer

12-16-2006, 04:43 AM

http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=100167&query.id=0#M100167<div></div>

atjtennis

12-16-2006, 05:04 AM

I am currently using STR 4-4-8-8 Wis 4-4-8-8 with my left over point in the first box of sta. I use to have the AGI/Wis Set up pre-EOF then I switched to the STR/WIS set up shortly before EOF came out. While I agree with you the extra 300 mit isn't that big of deal, unlike pre-EoF, I still really like the +19.2% DPS 9or whatever the exact is). Tanking named mobs post EoF is all about your HP and resis these days. Once your into diminishing returns for mit it doesn't really matter I sit at Ithink 61.2% mit by myself right now and it doesn't move a whole fricking lot when I"m the MT. From what I've seen resis are right up there near the top of the priority ideally you want whatever resis you need vs the mob sitting over 8k+ and HP which has always been a big deal still is. I don't disagree with the people who have taken the int or agi lines but I as of this moment because of adornments and other gear I am sticking with my current set up

Legiax

12-18-2006, 03:45 PM

Since EoF, your Parry and Defense skills are crucial. In light of this, the INT line became a LOT better. You get a ton of haste, and a lot of extra parry which makes a big difference in your tanking ability.

zormik

12-18-2006, 06:56 PM

As a raid MT i'd rather take haste/parry, why? Because in MT groups you often have a dirge and/or coercer. They both buff dps (dirge temporary buffs haste with cob i know) I often find myself sitting with more dps then haste. On top of that the intline adds parry which we can't selfbuff (we have defense on our defensive stance and an extra buff). The dirge can boost parry but when you do the calculation it's easier to get defense at a higher lvl then parry. So Intline wins again. I'm gonna be honest atm i'm really torn in two. I like the staminaline so much that i'm considering to keep it and use a towershield on pull to negate the nasty spikedps. Once the debuffs are thrown at the mob and my hp is stabilised i can change to buckler and dps away...

zormik

12-18-2006, 06:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FightGame wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote: According to the devs there is no minimum weapon delay, not 0.8 seconds or whatever. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> hmm would you happen to have a link to them saying this? Because using the /weaponstat command, I've never seen it lower than this..regardless how much more haste I stack on. Maybe the results from the command are wrong... I guess I could test using a parser, and/or looking in my combat logs by simply autoattacking with someone like a coercer buffing my haste, and shutting my berzerk procs off to get consistant data. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> A coercer buffs dps. if you want haste, try a illusionist

thisthingsucks

12-19-2006, 03:53 AM

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Brigandy

12-19-2006, 06:46 PM

Thats the answer I was looking for. Alot of people say the topic has be discussed "x" amount of times yet all of the discussions end up with 10 different possible solutions. However in the end, it all boils down to your playing style. My zerker alt is only lvl 55 however I 3 box and I MT all of the groups I am in when I dont. Last night I spend the big 1s and bit the bullet. I have 22 AA and I decided to switch over to the STA despite the ol school logic of yeliding the best possible Tower shield I could find while tanking. However, as I progress as a Zerker and a tank I am always looking toward the golden lvl of 70 and I build my toon accordingly. My biggest concern was not how much dps I will dish out in the end game ( I have a 70 Brigand to do all of that) but how would a post EOF or possible MA/MT tank maximizing the STA line. Equipping the hotbar with the different shields and pulling with the Tower then after locking down the encounter switching over to the buckler seems like a good solution to this. Thanks for pointing that out. I'll have to test it in some 55ish instances and see how efficent/difficult this will be.<div></div>