High End PVP: DW/2h/Bucker and Sheild?

[Comp2go]

At level 70, what weapons do you use in Pvp? You prefer a 2 Handed sword, or a Sheild and sword? Maby dual wielding is your style of combat. Im trying to decide what to use to get the best dps out of zerker. If Sword and Sheild is the choice, wont I loose DPS?<div></div>

[Odama]

<P>Your best bet is to read the stickied thread by Dimglow on what your AAs can do for your dps.  Any setup can be optimal for you but they each have their plusses and minuses, the favorite has been 1 hander/buckler due to a few things you will see outlined in that thread.  </P> <P>For PvP I use my knockbacks quite a bit and wanted to maximize my possiblities in delivering high dps damage at the same time.  Sword/Buckler has worked out well for me in this so that is what I chose. It's gonna be a preference thing, there are guys who do well with a 2-hander in PvP but to be honest it is very rare that I get a good match against a 2H Qeynos Zerker to judge setup versus setup what works best.  I find knockbacks invaluable in a fight and with a buckler I get 2 at my disposal counting B.Onslaught... but thats just my opinion.</P> <P>Long story short, your AA will be the decision on what will work for you.</P>

[Comp2go]

Ok,  Thanks for the update. Ill read the Sticky asap.<div></div>

[Conjourer]

<P>Just a FYI, Dimglow, Lovingly known as Kemt on Venekor, the author of the difinitive work on Warrior AA's uses Buckler and sword, and he is on a pvp server, I also use buckler and Axe...I have a good friend who is also in my guild who is a Berserker. He loves 2handers, more for RP then anything else. We group together all the time. He has an upper teir 2handed Sword (the one Vyem drops), and I out parse him every fight, the margin isn't even close. He is speced with Int and Str for haste and crits. I am speced Wis and Sta for double attack and dps/mit. I am the main tank in all of our groups, because my gear is slightly better and he prefers not to tank mostly. When he tanks the parses are a bit closer, because alot of my dps is based on getting hit with weapons aegis, taunting defense ect...but still when we are both on raids, and Kemt is tanking I out dps the 2handed zerker always.</P> <P> </P> <P>I don't know any zerker using dual wield to compare the numbers with, but I may respec and pick up dual wield just to test the numbers soon, I am close to finishing up Wurmslayer, and wouldn't mind seeing what the parses look like with that set up, as it would make the fabled tower shield in my bag that just sits there collecting dust more viable if I wasn't in Sta line..the only fear I have is not being able to hold hate while tanking with the tower, we are not guardians, we don't have a gazillion taunts and our dps is every thing...</P> <P> </P> <P>Syrius Silverblade</P> <P>70/73 Zerker</P> <P>Venekor</P>

[Comp2go]

Thanks for the info. I have one last question... What if We zerkers get a surprise attack by 2 players, and we are solo. Should we run, or just lay down because we already know were finished?<div></div>

[Captain Apple Darkberry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Comp2go wrote:<BR>Thanks for the info. I have one last question... What if We zerkers get a surprise attack by 2 players, and we are solo. <FONT color=#00cc99>Should we run, or just lay down because we already know were finished?<BR></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>If you contemplate doing either...   ...you shoudln't be a zerker.  =P</FONT></P> <P><BR> </P>

[Odama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AngryWhiteDog wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Comp2go wrote:<BR>Thanks for the info. I have one last question... What if We zerkers get a surprise attack by 2 players, and we are solo. <FONT color=#00cc99>Should we run, or just lay down because we already know were finished?<BR></FONT> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>If you contemplate doing either...   ...you shoudln't be a zerker.  =P</FONT></P> <P><BR> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>...ouch</P> <P>Anyway, to answer your question Comp2Go, you will never have a running chance unless you are close to a zone line.  Whether it be 2 players or a raid you are meant as a warrior to stand your ground and deal.  When this happens to me and I see death coming I just pop my open wounds, Furious assault, mayhem and weapon aegis and hope to Zek that a cavalry happens by as I tank the group.  After EoF I drop faster to a raid or group so absorbing the spamming of wizzie nukes is no longer viable.  To sum it up, unless you are one of those Zerkers who pvp in a x2, chances are you will get rolled alot, running isn't our thing.</P><p>Message Edited by Odamaru on <span class=date_text>12-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:37 PM</span>

[Comp2go]

Hehe, I wouldnt run away from fight unless  their are more than 4 people in a group together. Thats when I saddle up and [Removed for Content]. I think Im going to play a berserker, because I like the plate/dual weilding axe fiend theme.It's not like if I pick one class right now,  I cant never play a different class. I will mainly be grouping with a Bruiser/and maby 1 healer.<div></div>

[Necodem]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Conjourer wrote:<BR> <P>I out parse him every fight, the margin isn't even close. He is speced with Int and Str for haste and crits. I am speced Wis and Sta for double attack and dps/mit</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'm speced 4/4/8 str, 4/4/8 wis and 4/5/8 int with a 2H. And I out DPS anyone in raid... get a slower 2H and max out % dps % atk sped and crit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In pvp, I normaly use a slow bow for max dmg and after run to the target with tower shield for stun + debuff and switch 2H after, always stay in def stance (off stance is quite crappy, only use it against monk while in Juggernaut to kill them fast). </DIV> <DIV>In grp if you are the only tank vs an other grp, equip your shield and use your ae taunt and all def CA.<BR></DIV> <DIV>Don't forget to get all your CA in adept III at least. And use the environment (ie : hide behind a rock and show yourself sometime to quickly use your bow against caster, use your KB CA to make fall your opponents,...).</DIV>

[Legiax]

I use 2handers, and people always comment on how sick it is.Capped attack speed auto attacking for 500-800... thanks <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />It really is all about what you prefer, i myself have tried buckler + 1h, dual wield and 2hander. I dont have any issues with using a 2 hander, and i find it more effective than the buckler.@ Syrius, you will always be highest DPS in a raid if your MT due to group buffs etc, and none of the DPS should come anywhere near you. So thats not a fair example <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />But this argument has been had 54543490439 times on this forum, i think theres 2 on the main page alone.

[Conjourer]

<P>I don't want to have to quote myself to argue this...</P> <P>Scroll up and you will see I said "in raid, when Kemt is tanking, I still out dps the 2hander zerker"...</P> <P>Not sure what 1h weapon these people are using with buckler to be out dps'd by a 2hander, but if you have one of the pvp swords, or a frostwrath, or simmilar, your gonna out do just about every 2handed user short of Vraksakins Claw Club which is just silly at how much it dps's...</P> <P>So what I am saying is on a pvp server, where these amazing 1handers are available, its rediculously hard to out do a buckler speced zerker. Add in the fact that the buckler with Sta spec gives you the ability to tank all content in the game, without needing to switch out gear, such as equiping a shield and giving up all that dps you have with your 2hander, and the choice is pretty simple...at least in my eyes, and I agree the argument is over done here.</P> <P>500-800 auto attack is not hard to accomplish with a buckler and a good 1hander...and thats a pretty big range there, 500 - 800...my average parse on my tests with auto attack is in the neighborhood of 650, no CA's at all used. Mobs are all 50^^^ heroics tested on, same mob every time...consistent data collected. In a group with a Dirge I have topped out at 2.5k dps for that encounter. </P> <P>Average dps on single grouped encounters with destruction/open wounds is around 1200 dps, no dirge or other modifying class. </P> <P>I tested Str line, extensively, it adds about 13% dps but its also very streaky, prolly why you have such a large discrepency in your numbers ie 500-800. Sometimes you get lucky on rolls, and sometimes you don't, but if you take the average of 650 to the average of your 500-800 I will still take my consistent 650 numbers every time. I tested the results of a full 8 points into Str crit chance on CA only damage, unequiping weapons and going barehanded (thanks Kemt for the advice on how to test this) and I found that it was far more important to have mastered out CA's then it was to have half Adept 3 half masters for CA dps, then it was to have the 22% Crit, as a matter of fact, kemt with no crit chance at all (besides what ever our natural crit chance is as berserkers) did more dps on CA only tests on same exact mobs I was testing on, and I had the 22% crit chance running. He has more masters then me.</P> <P>So the real number crunching has shown me some things, and also testing in groups with different AA specs have me convinced on the Buckler line for a tanking zerker...and when not tanking, I still out dps all 2handed zerkers I have grouped with, every time. *shrugs* if I could get with one that out dps'd me consistently I would report the info, because I would find it very interesting. </P> <P>I am not suggesting that your not doing fine dps as a 2handed zerker, I am simply implying that what ever buckler zerker your comparing to is either using a poor weapon in comparison to your 2hander, or you have a secret your not sharing with us....</P> <P>Testing the AA's and parsing is what I do, I have tested every AA line in the warrior tree, including every combo of them known to mankind...</P> <P>Syrius</P>

[Conjourer]

<P>Enrage, your on my server, give me a tell sometime when your bored and we will go test out our dps, and see who does better...if your interested in finding out...</P> <P> </P> <P>Sy</P>

[thisthingsucks]

<div></div>i just switched back to the buckler and my dps when up alot. i went with the 2 hander for a while (i got a fabled  t6 2 hander that had a damage rateing of like 101 or somting like that) and  since i switched i'm now useing a t5 axe and my dps is easly 200 higher on average. im by no means saying im a leet zerker and you should listen to me, infact i dont even tank. im geared for dps and pvp, and IMHO buckler is the way to go.<div></div>

[Dimgl]

<font color="#00cc99">Haha, what is this, the Venekor Berserker thread? I know everyone here except for Enrage, who has just made a few smart-[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] comments to me in say at the broker, what was with that anyway? Trying to be cute? I just shrugged at you and went on my way.I'm of the opinion that STA is all but mandatory for a PVP berserker. The only other option is Vraksakin Claw Club with STR and hoping you land the 2-3k damage crit. Why, you ask?First, Sword of Runic Omens and Dazzling Blade off the PVP vendors, (or the FP equivalents) were in the top 5 one-handers  in the game in KOS, in fact the ONLY upgrade over Dazzling Blade before proc changes and EOF hit was the Planar Axe. Now I'd expect they still remain in at least top 10, and likely top 5, though ironically the Sword of Runic Omens shot way over Dazzling Blade in power with proc changes. The PVP weapons are outstanding, and there are no equivalent two-handers available.Second, DPS is almost always higher using double-attack than it is using a 2hander. It's simple math, a 75 damage rating 1h with 76% chance to double-attack has an effective damage rating of 132, which is almost 30 higher than any 2h available.Third, you get to keep your shield bash which is our only single target stun, which is incredibly important for PVP, and you get to keep at least some of the defensive shield capabilities.As for DPSing, I'd like to see you take Sy's offer and parse competitively on controlled encounters, or if you'd like to stack up against me, I'll take you out. The only weapon that even has a chance is Vraksakin's club as far as 2handers go. I parse 600-750 auto-attack/passive DPS on a single target when I control for accuracy and mob level/con, add another 225-275 dps from CAs. Topping 900-1100 dps on a single target is cake. AOE encounters it's not even funny how much DPS can be put out from the cyclones tree and any timers blown.Regardless, I can speak from PVP experience with a General title, over 13 kills to death ratio, and somewhere well over 2700 kills now, STA is the way to go, or buckler/1h to answer the OP's topic explicitly.</font><div></div>

[Legiax]

<P>Kemt, i emote at you because its fun, never said anything in /say to you. Just /poke or /point or /smile. And i do that to 90% of people i see, so no biggy!</P> <P> </P> <P>Last night vs Vyemm i went 2 hander and parsed around 700 or above constantly. And that was with a poor AA spec but near capped haste with a legendary 2 hander. Even if i crit hit with a 65 dmg rating 1 hander, im gonna hit around 500. Presume i double attack on that im now on 1000. At the same speed, i can hit consistantly for 600-1.5k. The parry from the INT line gives a boost to avoidance and greatly helps in PvP. </P> <P>Got my new shiny 2hander from Vyemm at the end which has a nice 102 dmg rating, so im looking forward to seeing the parse.</P> <P>Give me chance to get some more relic / doomrage or PvP armour and ill duel you both 1v1 for fun and we can see what happens.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Conjourer]

<P>Enrage, your missing the whole point of the discussion...</P> <P> </P> <P>I have no interest in dueling you, dueling uses the pve ruleset and besides it has no bearing on our discussion because this is a simple question of how much damage one can put out per second. In order to record this data we use a parser, which will record the damage done via a log that is writen by the game. This discussion isn't about who can beat the other in pvp, its about who can dish out the most damage per second using what type of weapons. I suggested that a buckler speced Zerker would out dps any other "style" berserker short of a Vrakskin Claw Club. You seemed to disagree with me, so I suggested we go test our dps, this doesn't mean head to the arena, as skill also plays a part in who wins fights, pvp or dueling. I simply want to test out our dps by heading to a spot where we can find alot of the same type and level mob and starting up the parser.</P> <P>Anyway, give me a shout if your up too it, so I can see what the 2handed sword off Vyem gives in terms of numbers on the parse...</P> <P> </P> <P>Syrius</P>

[Nembutal]

<div></div>For PvP... like on PvE sever duels I would assume you would want shield bash.IMHO when I duel the first thing I do is go rambo (destruction + open wounds) before the counter even finishes to allow attacks... By then the counter expires... and I am charging them while hitting weapon aegis... as soon as my range closes enough to hit agonizing press I nail it smaking them with my shield so hard they get chucked back... now they are in bad shape... especially as a caster... as I close the distance (created by knockback) still in rambo... tearing flesh from bone.As soon as I see them start to cast or swing I start nailing anything else with a stifle or knockdown... we can keep people in bad shape for a good chunk of the fight... in most caster duels... they say they don't even know what happened... by the time stifles and knockdowns run out... they are DEAD.priests on the other hand.. can be an issue... they hve enough HP to get off a root... and if they root you step back and heal up.. well it can be rough... the main thing is to never let up... if you get rooted.. FINE... crank out your arrows of fury ;-p never let up on the DPS... and as soon as root breaks.. SHIELD BASH THE MF AGAIN!  Knock him on his butt and keep him down... you *might* get lucky and kill him outright before he can get off a root... if you don't it will still have him sweating, panicing, and scared as hell... then he will have to heal up.. and he/she wants to hold onto that mana... they know as soon as that mana pool is gone the fight is over.IMHO SK is the one I have difficulty with... those lifetaps and the high AC is a deadly combo to go against.... and then if you think you are going to win... BAM harm-touch.  There is only 1 SK I will duel because he is a bud and won't laugh too much ;-p  He his really nice gear... so I am almost positively always going to lose... but being a guildmate and a bud... I know no one will be off bragging about the win.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Nembutal on <span class=date_text>12-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:02 PM</span>

[Legiax]

<DIV>I thought this thread was about whats better for PvP =/.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, sure Syrius, that sounds like a done deal. Im at work right now but will send you a tell later.</DIV>