Tower shields and bucklers - is there really a difference?

[Untruth]

<DIV>Forgive me for such a "newbish" question, this is coming from a player who primarily plays scouts, with the berserker as the first tank. As far as i know, avoidance has been absolutely botched against anything higher than an even con, no arrow mob since since LU#13, evident by the way that my assassin would get hit 90% of the time with 54.4% avoidance. If my full avoidance as an assassin meant that little, and tower shields add >18%(?) avoidance under optimal circumstances, is there actually any reason for a berserker to use a tower shield over a buckler at all? I'm not a big believer on the whole "everything counts" deal when it involves sacrificing other potentially useful stats; I don't see a big difference between .2% avoid and 1.8% avoid against a higher level ^^^ mob. I believe guardians have an stoneskin skill that requires a tower shield but what about berserkers? Or, Is there a seperate avoidance formula against higher enemies for shields.</DIV>

[FightGame]

<DIV>Well many have said that avoidance was kinda broken before the recent update, and that it was suppose to be fixed now.  If your purpose for wearing a buckler is for the stamina line AA's, then you can pick up some avoidance in the fourth ability.  After you do this, the difference from the best shield (1332 protection - I think from the Labs kite shield - Draconic Deflector), to about any t7 buckler (~400 protection) is equal to about 3.5% avoidance.  Will you ever noticed 3.5% avoidance?  That is the question... I would guess you may notice it, but if so, it won't be much.  If you don't put 8 points into this fourth ability for more avoidance when wearing a buckler, then the difference will be more like 7.5%.</DIV> <DIV>If you are MT'ing raids, do you need more hate?  If so, then the buckler would help, because of the extra damage you can deal.  If you are MT'ing raids and have a dirge + coercer, or any 2 people giving you some hate, and you want to be a better defensive tank, then go tower shield.  If you have some decent legendary gear or better, and just tank for groups, then it won't matter much either way.  I'd go buckler simply to kill stuff faster and hold aggro (but I have good gear and usually don't have a hate transfer when grouping)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Really up to you, but it's like this...</DIV> <DIV>Buckler = slightly less avoidance so may require decent gear, it gives ya more hate (76% chance to double attack from stamina line is greater than 10% hate in strength line), kill a little faster (really only noticeable grouping though, not raiding), looks kinda crappy on most plate tanks!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tower = slightly more avoidance, usually has a tad more physical mitigation on them, points not spent on stamina line can now be spent on other things, like even more avoidance (through defense:agility line and parry:int line), you look like the plate tank you are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm using the buckler now, and have been for awhile.  I'm pretty well fabled out and MT raids with it.  I only have a dirge in my group for hate, and the buckler has certainly helped.  I hold aggro pretty well.  But the new changes to combat has changed alot.  I feel I need more hate now, and I need more defense while raiding.  If we don't guild a well equipped, knowledgeable guard, then I think we need to guild a coercer for more hate, so that I can respec and start using a tower shield.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As with anything, it really depends on what you're doing.  The first few respecs are pretty cheap.  You can get our opinions, but the only way to know what will work for you, is to try it out.  Get your first 50 (KoS Tree) AA's and try something out for awhile, with however your play style is.  Then respec and try out a different combination of things for a couple weeks.  Then try out something else, and make a more final decision.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit:  the zerker has no ability that requires a certain type of shield.  well, we have the knockdown thing, but you can use any type of shield to do that.  And yes, when fighting higher level mobs, your stats are lowered a bit.  For example if your avoidance says 55%, but you are fighting a mob that's 5 levels higher than you, then I would guess that your avoidance would be more like 45%...but this is just a guess.  What the formula is, who knows...also, when fighting these epic mobs, many times they have a few types of attacks that can not be avoided, like AE's or certain abilities/spells, so your actual avoidance over the time period of the fight will be even lower with these attacks factored in.</DIV><p>Message Edited by FightGame on <span class=date_text>11-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:16 PM</span>

[Wargurine]

a coercer wouldn't necessarily help you more than a dirge, as straight +hate gain is capped at 50%. So even though the buffs stack, you don't really gain much /shrug<div></div>

[PhoenixTears]

to my knowledge.. the hate gain cap is 200% ...

[Mentin]

<P>There seems to be a trend on the guardian board to move away from the buckler because the defensive hit is too big now.</P> <P> </P>

[YummiOger]

<P>i do not know the Hate % Cap .. but i can CONFEDENTLY say it is Well beyond 50%..   there is no way that a mere 50% hate would hold aggro vs a 15K Raid DPS. </P> <P>Our MT group ALWAYS has 2 +Hate in it. dirge/assas/coercer/ maby even a swash if no assas. and 2 rangers for their aggro buff on the mob.</P>

[Wargurine]

<div><blockquote><hr>YummiOger wrote:<div></div> <p>i do not know the Hate % Cap .. but i can CONFEDENTLY say it is Well beyond 50%..   there is no way that a mere 50% hate would hold aggro vs a 15K Raid DPS. </p> <p>Our MT group ALWAYS has 2 +Hate in it. dirge/assas/coercer/ maby even a swash if no assas. and 2 rangers for their aggro buff on the mob.</p><hr></blockquote>I specifically said +hate, I didn't say anythign about aggro xfer. So I am talking only about coercer and dirge buffs as they are the only classes that buff straight +hate.Our mt grp never uses a xfer from assas/swash, and has a coercer and a dirge, but only the coercer puts his hate gain on me, and I hold aggro vs a 15-20k raid dps.</div>

[Myxzptlk]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FightGame wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit:  the zerker has no ability that requires a certain type of shield.  well, we have the knockdown thing, but you can use any type of shield to do that.  And yes, when fighting higher level mobs, your stats are lowered a bit.  For example if your avoidance says 55%, but you are fighting a mob that's 5 levels higher than you, then I would guess that your avoidance would be more like 45%...but this is just a guess.  What the formula is, who knows...also, when fighting these epic mobs, many times they have a few types of attacks that can not be avoided, like AE's or certain abilities/spells, so your actual avoidance over the time period of the fight will be even lower with these attacks factored in.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by FightGame on <SPAN class=date_text>11-27-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:16 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>so what you're saying is we can use the Tackle line of skills with a buckler as well as a shield?<BR>

[AsukaKazuma]

<div><blockquote><hr>Myxzptlk wrote:<div></div>so what you're saying is we can use the Tackle line of skills with a buckler as well as a shield?<hr></blockquote>That's correct. I've always used a tower shield when I really needed the extra avoidance, and the tackle helps to make up for the loss in DPS.</div>

[Hubo]

<DIV><bump></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before I start spending those valuable AA points in the buckler line (yes...I love STA line so took a few of those already) and attune that expensive buckler I wanted to see if there was any other fresh feedback since the EoF dust is settling. Due to my schedule, I mostly solo (80% of the time) and my ol' tower has done well so far - but if there is better out there from y'all wiser / higher level folks I'd be interested.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks !</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Hubo on <SPAN class=date_text>12-03-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:57 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Hubo on <span class=date_text>12-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:10 PM</span>