Time to forget the tanking and go DPS!

[RaunII]

<DIV>well, for a player like myself who doesnt have the time to play much so doesnt have the resources to attain lots of master 1 spells or fabled gear, its time to forget about tanking and look to something i can do well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have tried tanking with poor results after EoF, and sadly, with only mastercrafted, some legendary gear, there is no way i can take heroics without two good healers and a group of good DPSers...and i can forget about holding aggro off of ANYONE...so, time to leave tanking to gaurdians as the devs have obviously intended.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have Spec'ed to strenth,int,and wisdom lines to increase my crits, haste,and dps. I went with marr to get his cloak, and jewelry and gear is set up for strenth and haste. It has payed off, with no fabled items and only weapon being grizzlefazzles great sword and adept 1 spells i was out dpsing my raid party in labs last night with parses at a steady 700dps peaking to barely over 1k dps. im sure for a fabled out zerker with the buckler line this is crap, but for a adept one xegonite and legendary zerker, not shabby.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so, now i see where soe has decided to shift our abilities to...at least we got something...</DIV>

[swordfel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RaunII wrote:<BR> <DIV>well, for a player like myself who doesnt have the time to play much so doesnt have the resources to attain lots of master 1 spells or fabled gear, its time to forget about tanking and look to something i can do well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have tried tanking with poor results after EoF, and sadly, with only mastercrafted, some legendary gear, there is no way i can take heroics without two good healers and a group of good DPSers...and i can forget about holding aggro off of ANYONE...so, time to leave tanking to gaurdians as the devs have obviously intended.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have Spec'ed to strenth,int,and wisdom lines to increase my crits, haste,and dps. I went with marr to get his cloak, and jewelry and gear is set up for strenth and haste. It has payed off, with no fabled items and only weapon being grizzlefazzles great sword and adept 1 spells i was out dpsing my raid party in labs last night with parses at a steady 700dps peaking to barely over 1k dps. im sure for a fabled out zerker with the buckler line this is crap, but for a adept one xegonite and legendary zerker, not shabby.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so, now i see where soe has decided to shift our abilities to...at least we got something...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>rather than saying you cant tank, how bout you instead find out what the problem is. first off, get some adornements for all your stuff, that really helps. second, get legendary gear from EoF instances. finally, work on your new AAs. theres also a bunch of other things you can do, but these alone should give you a large boost. if you really want to go dps, go right ahead, but i think most of us are gonna stay as tanks.

[Clailmebe]

If thats what you want to do berserkers are fully capable of filling a dps role, most groups will want you to tank in most cases tho unless theirs a guardian or somthing in the group

[kal-l]

<P>I completely agree with Swordfel.  Tanking in EoF took some getting used to and I had to get some new equipment and adornments but its certainly still doable.  Group encounters are absolutely no problem to tank as a zerker.  Raids are a bit tougher but they are still adjusting KoS raids since the update and Eof are supossed to be harder.</P> <P>In short there's absolutely no reason a zerker can't tank just as well as a guardian.  Just as its always been.</P>

[Illustrious]

<DIV>zerkers still the No.2 tanks in game imo, nothing changed in tanking ability really for any class in overall tanking position. Still guard,zerker,pally,Sk,Bruiser,Monk in that order i would say.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its harder for every tank now not just zerker as they all take more damage and taunts seem to be resisted more. but with a decent healer you should be able to tank pretty much all heroic instances(apart nizzara and MM castle) easily even with a sub optimal grp.  With some decent dps in grp as well most instances are easily doable in attack stance regardless of aa lines.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Illustrious on <span class=date_text>11-27-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:17 PM</span>

[Ravendarth]

<P>I'm afraid I don't see the problems the OP complained of. I am a DPS Zerker who is not really built to tank in the traditional sense. I regularly sacrafice STA and MIT for STR. I have been in a number of groups since EOF has been released where by vertue of level and gear I was the default tank. The only problem I have encountered is a couple of times when the Fury (who by the way was the only healer in the group) threw his Starburst line AOE spell. Other than that I did not really encounter any issues keeping aggro nor taking down the mobs.</P> <P>The majority of my gear is Mastercrafted with just a couple as Legendary. CAs are a mix of AD3 and Masters for the most part.</P>

[RaunII]

well this is just one persons opinion on the frustrations of EoF...but mostly, I am just happy to be parsing semi decently!

[Ni]

<DIV>I, too, am a DPS zerker: level 62, STA 4/4/8 + WIS 4/2 with mostly pristine xegonite, a legendary lvl 60 1H from fallen Dynasty (bought for 24g +180hp proc adornment) and the ugly salt lick-looking legendary buckler from Blyze in SoS. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last night I ventured into the Mistmoore Catacombs with a pick up group. Everyone else was under 60. Our mystic was 56. We fought the 61 and 62 heroics at the entrances (each encounter is a ^^^ and a ^^). The first few pulls were quite hairy, but I switched to defensive stance and the mystic learned to spam heal early and we did just fine after the adjustment. The swashy learned the hard way to hold his DPS until the ^^^ was at 90% and I started every battle with my green AE taunt (adept 3) and either Rampage or Open Wounds (so I would always have one available for aggro generation.) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point is you have to adjust as the game mechanics do. The combat mechanics aren't broken. Just different.</DIV>

[RaunII]

<P>i never said it was broken, i belive whole heartedly that the devs truely belive that the game is "fuctioning as intended"...im just saying that its much easier and seems more worthwhile to DPS than tank...nor am i saying its impossible to tank after EoF...I am just saying with legendary/fabled gear, and mostly adept spells its MUCH more difficult than I personally prefer.</P> <P>I tank Oblisk of Blight last night, and i still tank, but to hold aggro i had to have the pally in the group put amends on a bruiser in the group, and the monk had to spend half the fights feigned death cause she kept pulling aggro...hell, i was loosing aggro to the templar cause my taunts kept getting resisted. is it impossible to tank? no...</P> <P>Do I like tanking after EoF? no...</P> <P> </P> <P>Will I tank after EoF? sadly, yes...</P> <P> </P> <P>But i would rather be dpsing than tanking in this night mare of aggro and mitigation woes. maybe when i get fabled out with master 1 taunts, then I will like to tank once again...or maybe the devs will change it so tanking is actually fun again. </P>

[Thor Of Hal]

<P>First and foremost... Despite high parses that zerkers (including myself) have posted about before EoF and to some extent now after KoS we are still not that viable a dps class, we might be the greatest dpsers purely in fighter circles... but then bruisers/monks and SKs are not far behind us.  Infact, extemely high dps parses (3.1k is my highest parse if i remeber rightly) are extremely circumstantial.  i.e. there was a huge group.</P> <P>Although zerkers conceptually would be more leather wearing then plate wearing, at the end of the day we are plate tanks... with the right group setup we can be consistantly out dpsed by many other classes, that will offer greater total damage output then us.   So id contend that infact, sadly (and not offensively i hasten to add) by goin purely dps and dps only, you are infact perhaps severally limiting ur usefulness in a raid and possible even a group!!  </P> <P>If you only have treasured/legendary gear w/ no adorments and adept 1s well tank only the easiest zones... You will find masters/ new gear/treasured raws drop (if lucky).  Get them crafted to adpt III or adorments or sell them off to buy more rares.   I have completed all tier 7 masters and tier 6 master sets (save for that SoB outrage). Purely by doing instances, every master has either dropped in a raid for me or in a group or i have brought (more in groups btw despite me raiding more then i group).    If you dont have alot of time to play, then jus play to do zones only or the good eof / kos questlines.</P> <P>Granted ill admit, as i have repeated many times... all tanks will now find tanking harder to start off with, but it will get easier... the only quam i have is the aa that guardians have been granted ontop of thier KoS/DoF CA/Special CAs and AAs of which us zerkers do not have access too... and they are pritty [Removed for Content] uber!   I still believe SoE needs to seriously reconsider what they have done to tanks.... if they are to stay true to their mantra about all tanks having equal abilities or certain tank for certain jobs.</P>

[infernus006]

The problem is your subpar gear and spell quality, not your class.  It's true that you need at least Ad3 CA's (especially taunts) and good armor (high quality legendary or fabled that is quested or dropped from named mobs) to tank well, not the nerfed crafted stuff or things that came from non-epic trash mobs that you can solo.  But this is nothing new.  I guarantee that a Guardian with the same quality spells and gear as you, especially with only Ad1 taunts, isn't going to do any better.  Furthermore, I've noticed that even Master quality taunts are getting resisted a lot more since EoF was release than they did before, so I can only imagine how bad it must be at Ad1.  If you just don't want to tank, that's fine, have fun trying to out-parse the mage and scout DPS and good luck finding groups that will take you as just a DPS to begin with...but don't assume your class is broken just because you haven't the gear to play it right. <div></div>

[RaunII]

<P>I belive that you should be able to tank at least blue heroic non named mobs for a group without two healers with non legendary or fabled gear...im sorry but thats how i feel...sony is making it painfully obvious that there will be no love for people who havent the time or rescources to raid every night...dont get me wrong, i dont think i should be able to easilly tank nameds even conned or surely not raids...i just want to be able to tank for a group without losing aggroto non dps classes or without more than one healer...im sorry io feel that way and that I am not "playing my class correctly"...and trust me, i know, every group i have been in i end up tanking even with crappy gear and lost aggro...but at least on the raids I am dpsing and doing quite well at it...1000 dps is laughable for anyone fabled out, but for a crap tank its pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] good.</P> <P> </P> <P>I know I wont outparse wizards and the like, but thats good enough DPS to get me into a raid...and I belive for the average casual player who isnt fabled out with masters and gear, that ALL the tank classes can no longer tank efficiantly, not just berserkers...so, keep flaming.</P>

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p><i>"sony is making it painfully obvious that there will be no love for people who havent the time or rescources to raid every night"</i>That much I agree with.  I've always felt that there is a severe imbalance between raid content and non-raid content in this game.  People who don't raid because they can't or because they just don't like to are unable to compete with raiders in non-raid zones because of the vast difference in gear quality that makes raiders essentially overpowered in non-raid environments and therefore much more desirable as groupmates for heroic content.  And it certainly doesn't help the problem if SoE is gearing heroic mobs to be more challenging to raid-geared players. </p> <p>This is especially hard on people who play a tank class that doesn't raid very much and therefore has little or no access to fabled armor, especially considering that most fabled drops are no-trade and most fabled quest rewards require the killing of epic mobs, and most pickup raids are a joke. </p> <p>There's also the fact that it's much harder for a tank class to get into a high-end raid guild than other classes, especially healers, since most high-end raid guilds these days are not looking to recruit any fighter classes at all and will pick up any healers, DPS, and/or utility classes before them.  So to everyone who says to just "join a raid guild" to solve all your problems, let me tell you it's not that easy even if you really want to and it's not always an option to begin with.  You also have to realize that not everyone enjoys having to group with 23 other people for hours and hours at a time to clear massive raid zones every day to build up enough DKP to actually have a chance at bidding on something they can use that maybe happens to drop a few weeks or months down the road when they can afford it.  And thanks to the new combat changes, raiding is even more difficult and frustrating than it was before. </p> <p>IMO it was a really dumb idea for them to raise the mitigation cap AND nerf the mitigation on everyone's armor at the same time.  The worst part about this change is that it really effects tanks more than everyone else in the game.  And I don't know about you all but after having spend gobs of plat on the silly adornments to try and get my mit back up to a decent level, I barely have enough money left to cover my repair bills and I still have more than 10% less mitigation against a same-level opponent than I had before EoF release.  So, yeah, I totally agree with you on this argument.  But once again, it's not a problem with any specific class, it’s an overall game mechanics problem.  I really wish they would just figure out a way to upgrade the game without nerfing the playerbase, and especially quit picking on tanks.<i>"I belive for the average casual player who isnt fabled out with masters and gear, that ALL the tank classes can no longer tank efficiantly, not just berserkers...so, keep flaming."</i>Well that's not what you originally stated.  You originally stated, "<i>time to leave tanking to gaurdians as the devs have obviously intended</i>."  Furthermore, I was never "flaming" you, just stating some facts that you appear to be unaware of.  So don't your panties in a bunch.<span></span></p><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>11-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:45 PM</span>

[Kage8]

<div><blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p><i>"sony is making it painfully obvious that there will be no love for people who havent the time or rescources to raid every night"</i>That much I agree with.  I've always felt that there is a severe imbalance between raid content and non-raid content in this game.  People who don't raid because they can't or because they just don't like to are unable to compete with raiders in non-raid zones because of the vast difference in gear quality that makes raiders essentially overpowered in non-raid environments and therefore much more desirable as groupmates for heroic content.  And it certainly doesn't help the problem if SoE is gearing heroic mobs to be more challenging to raid-geared players. </p> <p>This is especially hard on people who play a tank class that doesn't raid very much and therefore has little or no access to fabled armor, especially considering that most fabled drops are no-trade and most fabled quest rewards require the killing of epic mobs, and most pickup raids are a joke. </p> <p>There's also the fact that it's much harder for a tank class to get into a high-end raid guild than other classes, especially healers, since most high-end raid guilds these days are not looking to recruit any fighter classes at all and will pick up any healers, DPS, and/or utility classes before them.  So to everyone who says to just "join a raid guild" to solve all your problems, let me tell you it's not that easy even if you really want to and it's not always an option to begin with.  You also have to realize that not everyone enjoys having to group with 23 other people for hours and hours at a time to clear massive raid zones every day to build up enough DKP to actually have a chance at bidding on something they can use that maybe happens to drop a few weeks or months down the road when they can afford it.  And thanks to the new combat changes, raiding is even more difficult and frustrating than it was before. </p> <p>IMO it was a really dumb idea for them to raise the mitigation cap AND nerf the mitigation on everyone's armor at the same time.  The worst part about this change is that it really effects tanks more than everyone else in the game.  And I don't know about you all but after having spend gobs of plat on the silly adornments to try and get my mit back up to a decent level, I barely have enough money left to cover my repair bills and I still have more than 10% less mitigation against a same-level opponent than I had before EoF release.  So, yeah, I totally agree with you on this argument.  But once again, it's not a problem with any specific class, it’s an overall game mechanics problem.  I really wish they would just figure out a way to upgrade the game without nerfing the playerbase, and especially quit picking on tanks.<i>"I belive for the average casual player who isnt fabled out with masters and gear, that ALL the tank classes can no longer tank efficiantly, not just berserkers...so, keep flaming."</i>Well that's not what you originally stated.  You originally stated, "<i>time to leave tanking to gaurdians as the devs have obviously intended</i>."  Furthermore, I was never "flaming" you, just stating some facts that you appear to be unaware of.  So don't your panties in a bunch.<span></span></p><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">11-30-2006</span> <span class="time_text">12:45 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>That about sums it all up. Sony is doing what they did in Eq1....They are catering to the raiders and slowly leaving the rest of the population in the dust.Yea the raid zones they get aren't enough anymore, now they need heroic zones to be harder to make it more fun for them in there full fabled gear and 23 master I's..../sigh god i hope Vanguard is good....</div>

[Illustrious]

<DIV>That about sums it all up. Sony is doing what they did in Eq1....They are catering to the raiders and slowly leaving the rest of the population in the dust.<BR><BR>Yea the raid zones they get aren't enough anymore, now they need heroic zones to be harder to make it more fun for them in there full fabled gear and 23 master I's..../sigh god i hope Vanguard is good....<BR></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why shoudnt there be the odd zone that is tough for raid equiped players to have a good group challenge? Even the hardest core raiders dont raid 24/7 and probably like some grp action as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think group instance wise things are pretty good atm with a slection of zones to match everyone equipment level just like raid zones there should be some sort of pregression through the zones in terms of difficulty. TBH there are only 2 instances in game atm that the average mastercrafted/legendary group would struggle with those being MM castle and Nizzara.  All other zones are easily do-able by a less than raid equipped grp tho they may need 2 healers instead of 1 etc etc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As long as they cater for all i dont think there is a problem, if the cater for 1 grp to the exclusion of another then something is wrong, but i dont see that atm</DIV>

[Kage8]

<div><blockquote><hr>Illustrious wrote:<div>That about sums it all up. Sony is doing what they did in Eq1....They are catering to the raiders and slowly leaving the rest of the population in the dust.Yea the raid zones they get aren't enough anymore, now they need heroic zones to be harder to make it more fun for them in there full fabled gear and 23 master I's..../sigh god i hope Vanguard is good....</div> <div> <hr> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Why shoudnt there be the odd zone that is tough for raid equiped players to have a good group challenge? Even the hardest core raiders dont raid 24/7 and probably like some grp action as well.</div> <div> </div> <div>I think group instance wise things are pretty good atm with a slection of zones to match everyone equipment level just like raid zones there should be some sort of pregression through the zones in terms of difficulty. TBH there are only 2 instances in game atm that the average mastercrafted/legendary group would struggle with those being MM castle and Nizzara.  All other zones are easily do-able by a less than raid equipped grp tho they may need 2 healers instead of 1 etc etc</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>As long as they cater for all i dont think there is a problem, if the cater for 1 grp to the exclusion of another then something is wrong, but i dont see that atm</div><hr></blockquote>Ok. I think thats wrong, so we have to disagree i guess. One thing sony could do it set a difficulty raiting on some of the instance zones for normal/hard/hardest....and tailor the drops acordingly...Only thing i really want is to be able to get my Leg/set gear. And if some pieces only drop in MM and i cant do MM then im up the creek. Also....Raiders want a zone for them thats a challenge for them? Ok they get MM. Great. but from what i hear to get my Marr cloak i gatta go into MM. Now cause of raiders getting there way i wont be able to get my cloak. Just like i will never have my Wurmslayer (was really looking forward to that) ah well....</div>

[Huna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kage848 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>Raiders want a zone for them thats a challenge for them? Ok they get MM. Great. but from what i hear to get my Marr cloak i gatta go into MM. Now cause of raiders getting there way i wont be able to get my cloak. Just like i will never have my Wurmslayer (was really looking forward to that) ah well....<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>You can make it to the cloak guy without getting any aggro if you are extremely careful (and invis'd).  If you happen to go in when a high end raid group is heading to the inner sanctum you can just follow them, since the guy you want is in the same area.  <BR></P>

[zormik]

<P>Well these combat changes are not catered for raiders tbh.  You can tank epics in legendary as well as in fabled.  Using fabled nowadays is only good to show off with...</P> <P>A legendary tank has gear that will do as much or close to as much as fabled gear...</P> <P>Raidtanks used to be a lot stronger then normal tanks.  Now the gap has been closed by soe and there is hardly any difference anymore except masters ...</P>

[Kage8]

<div><blockquote><hr>Hunadi wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Kage848 wrote: <div>Raiders want a zone for them thats a challenge for them? Ok they get MM. Great. but from what i hear to get my Marr cloak i gatta go into MM. Now cause of raiders getting there way i wont be able to get my cloak. Just like i will never have my Wurmslayer (was really looking forward to that) ah well....</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>You can make it to the cloak guy without getting any aggro if you are extremely careful (and invis'd).  If you happen to go in when a high end raid group is heading to the inner sanctum you can just follow them, since the guy you want is in the same area.  </p><hr></blockquote>Hunadi - Thks for the info ill have to try that, but to be honest i should not have to play this way. Id rather fight my way down. Thats the way it should be. My heroic gameing is being affected by what the raiders want. So i hope you can understand my concerns....And if you cant? well then i guess theres nothing more to say.</div>

[Trynnus1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kage848 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hunadi wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kage848 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>Raiders want a zone for them thats a challenge for them? Ok they get MM. Great. but from what i hear to get my Marr cloak i gatta go into MM. Now cause of raiders getting there way i wont be able to get my cloak. Just like i will never have my Wurmslayer (was really looking forward to that) ah well....<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>You can make it to the cloak guy without getting any aggro if you are extremely careful (and invis'd).  If you happen to go in when a high end raid group is heading to the inner sanctum you can just follow them, since the guy you want is in the same area.  <BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Hunadi - Thks for the info ill have to try that, but to be honest i should not have to play this way. Id rather fight my way down. Thats the way it should be. My heroic gameing is being affected by what the raiders want. So i hope you can understand my concerns....And if you cant? well then i guess theres nothing more to say.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Kage - there is a really good post in the combat forum going now titled " I tank Nizara naked" it is up to 150 posts as of now but worth the read. I explains a problem with mitigation now. I promise it will turn your thoughts upside down. be ready for some math.

[RaunII]

<P>well, it doesnt seem I am alone in the belief that the mitigation changes and resist changes have had a negative affect on people who arent fabled.</P> <P> </P> <P>untill SOE figures out that people dont like it when they stop playing their high level characters or just leave all together, I will be DPS'ing or attempting to tank heroics with two healers and someone to give me aggro, while still encouring group debt and healers running out of mana.</P>

[Huna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kage848 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hunadi wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kage848 wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR><BR>Raiders want a zone for them thats a challenge for them? Ok they get MM. Great. but from what i hear to get my Marr cloak i gatta go into MM. Now cause of raiders getting there way i wont be able to get my cloak. Just like i will never have my Wurmslayer (was really looking forward to that) ah well....<BR><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>You can make it to the cloak guy without getting any aggro if you are extremely careful (and invis'd).  If you happen to go in when a high end raid group is heading to the inner sanctum you can just follow them, since the guy you want is in the same area.  <BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Hunadi - Thks for the info ill have to try that, but to be honest i should not have to play this way. Id rather fight my way down. Thats the way it should be. My heroic gameing is being affected by what the raiders want. So i hope you can understand my concerns....And if you cant? well then i guess theres nothing more to say.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Oh trust me, I understand your frustrations.  I think that mistmoore is fine personally though, the problem is with the Mith Marr quest, not the zone.  I was extremely aggravated when I went in to Mistmoore to finish the quest, got a group, died multiple times.  Tried again the next day, couldn't make it all the way to him.  Then saw a guildie come in solo vamps at the entrance, leave and a little later post the link to his new cloak in guild chat.  It took me about 4 deaths using invis totems to figure out the best way to get to him.  Made it to him solo, got a group the next day invis'd to him and killed him easily.  </P> <P>So, I understand your frustrations, I'm just giving you a way to get around the problem.  Again, the blame shouldn't go to raiders, the blame should go to the quest designer putting this guy in a horrible spot.</P>

[LygerT]

<DIV>do what fits rather than trying to convince him something is wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i myself decided i wasn't cut out for tanking but i do it often, mainly because as a DPS i just draw more aggro than even most wizards dish out but more often than not it just bothers the hell out of me when im tanking and i'm losing hate. i enjoy DPSing far more now than i did when i purely tanked most of the time.</DIV><p>Message Edited by LygerT on <span class=date_text>12-03-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:29 PM</span>

[Lamprey_02]

<P>How can you possibly not be able to afford to at least adept3 your skills and get a set of xegonite in tier7? It's not exactly unattainable ya know. Only someone who is too lazy to tradeskill/harvest/solo for cash EVER would be in that situation, otherwise... come on. Yeah, platinum doesn't come for free but if you work at it, you will have it.</P> <P>Of course you can't tank in common crafted armor with adept1 skills. Any tank over level 62 who doesn't have at least mastercrafted gear and adept3 taunts is just not trying.</P>

[RaunII]

try reading before you type next time. I HAVE xegonite and a few legendaries...and i have no money because I only play 1 or 2 hours a night if that, and I am ussually helping guildies or my wife. so, sorry i am not fabled, I am just making the point that SOE is slowly getting away from being solo friendly and geared to the hardcore raiders.

[theredraven]

<DIV>well...if your only playing 1-2 hours a night no duh your not gonna get in raids to get fableds...and if your not in a raiding guild in the first place you wont get fableds...play more and you get more out of it</DIV>

[TheKons]

<div></div>Thats his point. SoE is going more and more against the soloing people / people that don't play much. Not saying i'm one of those people cause I do play alot, I just dont' raid too much but i'm not complaining. I can just see the other point of view that if i'm having a hard time in all legendary and some fabled items it must be really bad to be in the AD1/AD3 and Treasured/Mastercrafted crowd. Hopefully once they fix the combat system again it will be more friendly towards the other side of the crowd.<div></div><p>Message Edited by TheKons on <span class=date_text>12-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:48 PM</span>

[admiralsn]

I think every post does sum it up that they are catering to hardcore players, they want the rest of us to give up on this game entirely so they hopefully have costomers for Vanguard... I say forget soe games, im new to this game  as it is but have played other mmo's and seen them go the same way when theyve been around for a while and running out of content, they dont want to add anything  jsut make it harder so it takes longer to experience the last  days of the game. there are new games coming out soon and they want vanguard to compete with them so they are still amking momey and not loosing thier subscription money base, soe is obviously doing this on purpose to get rid of anyone who doesnt play religously for a new player base for thier new game.

[zormik]

<DIV>A lot of guilds can raid labs by example.  You don't have to be in a hardcore raid to get fabled on you...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And btw fabled won't do you much anymore since the combat changes.  A tank in legendary armor is not taking much more damage then a fully fabled tank ...</DIV>

[Wolfguard6]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> admiralsnog wrote:<BR> I think every post does sum it up that they are catering to hardcore players, they want the rest of us to give up on this game entirely so they hopefully have costomers for Vanguard... I say forget soe games, im new to this game  as it is but have played other mmo's and seen them go the same way when theyve been around for a while and running out of content, they dont want to add anything  jsut make it harder so it takes longer to experience the last  days of the game. there are new games coming out soon and they want vanguard to compete with them so they are still amking momey and not loosing thier subscription money base, soe is obviously doing this on purpose to get rid of anyone who doesnt play religously for a new player base for thier new game.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>LOL another person who has just looked at the tip of the iceberg there is more in this game then raiding. Please tell me how a new expansion that has content from lvl 1-70 is raid base catering. There are lets see now Clockwork Menace Factory, Freethinkers, Mistmoore inner, and Emerald Halls. Yup there cantering to raiders with 4 raid zones.  There are legendary armor sets for classes as well small group, And there still a ton of solo quest out there for things aswell. I am not a hard core player either my guild is a causal raid here and there, and we all get some fabled out of it. If ya go into harder zone, and work at it you should get the better gear then small group or solo Risk reward thing.  And as some has stated before now legendary and fabled are about the same now. Mitigation cruve for things makes them all the same once you hit 5000 Mit witch you can do in Legendary and beleive it or not mastercrafted.

[Kage8]

<div><blockquote><hr>Wolfguard6 wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> admiralsnog wrote: <div></div>I think every post does sum it up that they are catering to hardcore players, they want the rest of us to give up on this game entirely so they hopefully have costomers for Vanguard... I say forget soe games, im new to this game  as it is but have played other mmo's and seen them go the same way when theyve been around for a while and running out of content, they dont want to add anything  jsut make it harder so it takes longer to experience the last  days of the game. there are new games coming out soon and they want vanguard to compete with them so they are still amking momey and not loosing thier subscription money base, soe is obviously doing this on purpose to get rid of anyone who doesnt play religously for a new player base for thier new game. <hr> </blockquote>LOL another person who has just looked at the tip of the iceberg there is more in this game then raiding. Please tell me how a new expansion that has content from lvl 1-70 is raid base catering. There are lets see now Clockwork Menace Factory, Freethinkers, Mistmoore inner, and Emerald Halls. Yup there cantering to raiders with 4 raid zones.  There are legendary armor sets for classes as well small group, And there still a ton of solo quest out there for things aswell. I am not a hard core player either my guild is a causal raid here and there, and we all get some fabled out of it. If ya go into harder zone, and work at it you should get the better gear then small group or solo Risk reward thing.  And as some has stated before now legendary and fabled are about the same now. Mitigation cruve for things makes them all the same once you hit 5000 Mit witch you can do in Legendary and beleive it or not mastercrafted.<hr></blockquote>I think the thing some people are [Removed for Content] about (at lest the thing im [Removed for Content] about) is MM. MM Castle is a Heroic zone and the normal Leg/Master gear people (Non-Raiders in short) cannot do this zone. I have been told horror stories of Non-cureable stuns, agro through walls and stories about needed 2 non-raided grps working together to get to the bottom.Is only 4 new raid zones weak? Perhaps, but thats no reason to design a Heroic zone just for fabled out people. Its not the Heroic players fault your fabled out and find the normal heroic zones to easy nor should we pay a price for that. If HoF, Den and PoA were to easy for you then try tanking it without your Bp and pants. Try doing them duo. Hell try playing with your right hand tied behind your back if you must.The set armor drops in certian places. I know parts drop in MM castle. There for MY HEROIC set gear drops in a place set up for fabled out players. Also my HERIOC Marr cloak takes me to that same zone.I could care less what happens to raiders. I mean hell sony give them 20 new raids zones if you must but please leave the heroic zones to the normal poeple please. Or at very least make the armor sets drop in another zone and dont force a poor casual gamer to go to that zone for his claok.</div>

[Wolfguard6]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kage848 wrote:<BR>I think the thing some people are [Removed for Content] about (at lest the thing im [Removed for Content] about) is MM. MM Castle is a Heroic zone and the normal Leg/Master gear people (Non-Raiders in short) cannot do this zone. I have been told horror stories of Non-cureable stuns, agro through walls and stories about needed 2 non-raided grps working together to get to the bottom.<BR><BR>Is only 4 new raid zones weak? Perhaps, but thats no reason to design a Heroic zone just for fabled out people. Its not the Heroic players fault your fabled out and find the normal heroic zones to easy nor should we pay a price for that. If HoF, Den and PoA were to easy for you then try tanking it without your Bp and pants. Try doing them duo. Hell try playing with your right hand tied behind your back if you must.<BR><BR>The set armor drops in certian places. I know parts drop in MM castle. There for MY HEROIC set gear drops in a place set up for fabled out players. Also my HERIOC Marr cloak takes me to that same zone.<BR><BR>I could care less what happens to raiders. I mean hell sony give them 20 new raids zones if you must but please leave the heroic zones to the normal poeple please. Or at very least make the armor sets drop in another zone and dont force a poor casual gamer to go to that zone for his claok.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>       Ok next up is Unrest another heroic zone going to be tought as nails. Only reason i can see them going this way with heroic zones is to keep it hard so it take a bit to get throu. Only reason I can see this is because of the new expansion time lines. 12 months for each. no more 6 month expansions.  so if people blow by they'll be board as ever. Same as  Raiders who do the same raids all the time. I don't care if we do the same one over and over are guild is there just to have fun. Witch is what all games are ment to be. I have to say it, but before I got fabled gear I was in Mistmoore yes it was hard, but with a really good group working together we made consideralbe way in. It like Naizara really rough, but very fun you have to keep a bit of a chalenge to the game, or even the causal players will leave. </P> <P>         I know your side of the road I was and still a very small group to solo player. Just recently in my Eq2 life I got into a guild that supported both. One day off from work I had some free time nothing in real life to call me away. There was a raid set to go but they had gaps in it, and they asked if someone wanted to come along who normally  didn't raid. I said sure I'll come have no idea what I was asking for. </P> <P>           Here I am now a poor me over looked causal player who has some fabled gear. Its very possible to have some gear in a causal play style. Yes It still very hard to do and not all guilds are the same. But sometimes I go on pick up raids now lot of smaller causal guilds don't have a lot of people and ask if someone wants to come along and well most of the ones I have done have been. /random 100 for gear.  1 in 24 shot at getting something. </P> <P>           I am a person who fill gaps if I have time to make it. Most of the time I am in small group. Oh I had to go to mistmoore as well for my cloak so your not the only one. I had a Pick up group in there for that not guild still we all did quite well, and at that time I was only in Mastercrafted T7 armor, and before someone says it. I only needed to kill 25 vamps we could have done that in front of the zone. I have to say we did not stay there at the front we went deeper in. </P> <P>         I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you on this I know both side of the fence just stating its a chanlge lvl for people to keep them interested. Plus I know from are hardcore raiders that the same zones are getting boring to them. So I have yet to get bored with anything because I do both if my time allows it and the raider really like to have other people come along just to get them some gear. Guess it how are guild works. Everyone helps the others.  I have set a web page up for the raiders and most of the time I am not there. Yet I don't mind doing something for other people willing to help me better my toon.  even causal players can put in 5 hours for a smaller raid I would hope I can when I can. Not saying everyone has the same life as me. Ghum created March 6th, of 2005 total online: Time played 74 days 22 hours and whatever odd amount of mins. total days sence creation 617 days.. ya it can be done, very causal and have fabled gear. </P><p>Message Edited by Wolfguard6 on <span class=date_text>12-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:24 PM</span>

[Kage8]

<div><blockquote><hr>Wolfguard6 wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Kage848 wrote:I think the thing some people are [Removed for Content] about (at lest the thing im [Removed for Content] about) is MM. MM Castle is a Heroic zone and the normal Leg/Master gear people (Non-Raiders in short) cannot do this zone. I have been told horror stories of Non-cureable stuns, agro through walls and stories about needed 2 non-raided grps working together to get to the bottom.Is only 4 new raid zones weak? Perhaps, but thats no reason to design a Heroic zone just for fabled out people. Its not the Heroic players fault your fabled out and find the normal heroic zones to easy nor should we pay a price for that. If HoF, Den and PoA were to easy for you then try tanking it without your Bp and pants. Try doing them duo. Hell try playing with your right hand tied behind your back if you must.The set armor drops in certian places. I know parts drop in MM castle. There for MY HEROIC set gear drops in a place set up for fabled out players. Also my HERIOC Marr cloak takes me to that same zone.I could care less what happens to raiders. I mean hell sony give them 20 new raids zones if you must but please leave the heroic zones to the normal poeple please. Or at very least make the armor sets drop in another zone and dont force a poor casual gamer to go to that zone for his claok. <hr> </blockquote> <p>       Ok next up is Unrest another heroic zone going to be tought as nails. Only reason i can see them going this way with heroic zones is to keep it hard so it take a bit to get throu. Only reason I can see this is because of the new expansion time lines. 12 months for each. no more 6 month expansions.  so if people blow by they'll be board as ever. Same as  Raiders who do the same raids all the time. I don't care if we do the same one over and over are guild is there just to have fun. Witch is what all games are ment to be. I have to say it, but before I got fabled gear I was in Mistmoore yes it was hard, but with a really good group working together we made consideralbe way in. It like Naizara really rough, but very fun you have to keep a bit of a chalenge to the game, or even the causal players will leave. </p> <p>         I know your side of the road I was and still a very small group to solo player. Just recently in my Eq2 life I got into a guild that supported both. One day off from work I had some free time nothing in real life to call me away. There was a raid set to go but they had gaps in it, and they asked if someone wanted to come along who normally  didn't raid. I said sure I'll come have no idea what I was asking for. </p> <p>           Here I am now a poor me over looked causal player who has some fabled gear. Its very possible to have some gear in a causal play style. Yes It still very hard to do and not all guilds are the same. But sometimes I go on pick up raids now lot of smaller causal guilds don't have a lot of people and ask if someone wants to come along and well most of the ones I have done have been. /random 100 for gear.  1 in 24 shot at getting something. </p> <p>           I am a person who fill gaps if I have time to make it. Most of the time I am in small group. Oh I had to go to mistmoore as well for my cloak so your not the only one. I had a Pick up group in there for that not guild still we all did quite well, and at that time I was only in Mastercrafted T7 armor, and before someone says it. I only needed to kill 25 vamps we could have done that in front of the zone. I have to say we did not stay there at the front we went deeper in. </p> <p>         I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you on this I know both side of the fence just stating its a chanlge lvl for people to keep them interested. Plus I know from are hardcore raiders that the same zones are getting boring to them. So I have yet to get bored with anything because I do both if my time allows it and the raider really like to have other people come along just to get them some gear. Guess it how are guild works. Everyone helps the others.  I have set a web page up for the raiders and most of the time I am not there. Yet I don't mind doing something for other people willing to help me better my toon.  even causal players can put in 5 hours for a smaller raid I would hope I can when I can. Not saying everyone has the same life as me. Ghum created March 6th, of 2005 total online: Time played 74 days 22 hours and whatever odd amount of mins. total days sence creation 617 days.. ya it can be done, very causal and have fabled gear. </p><p>Message Edited by Wolfguard6 on <span class="date_text">12-08-2006</span> <span class="time_text">02:24 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Well i have to point at the fact that i have the time to raid but i dont raid cause i dont enjoy it. That simple. And i should not be forced to raid to compete either.With that said im ganna give MM a go myself tonight with guildies. Ganna find out for myself once and for all whats going on down there.As far as people getting bored with the content? Dude if your ganna play 24/7, then your ganna get bored. No way around it.Yea that sucks and all but hey, go out to the movies sometimes, get some air, go watch TV...The people that play way too much are ganna do everything and get bored. I have some friends like this. Its unavoidable.Ganna give MM a shot tonight. Well see whats going on.</div>

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kage848 wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE>I think the thing some people are [Removed for Content] about (at lest the thing im [Removed for Content] about) is MM. MM Castle is a Heroic zone and the normal Leg/Master gear people (Non-Raiders in short) cannot do this zone. I have been told horror stories of Non-cureable stuns, agro through walls and stories about needed 2 non-raided grps working together to get to the bottom.<BR><BR>Is only 4 new raid zones weak? Perhaps, but thats no reason to design a Heroic zone just for fabled out people. Its not the Heroic players fault your fabled out and find the normal heroic zones to easy nor should we pay a price for that. If HoF, Den and PoA were to easy for you then try tanking it without your Bp and pants. Try doing them duo. Hell try playing with your right hand tied behind your back if you must.<BR><BR>The set armor drops in certian places. I know parts drop in MM castle. There for MY HEROIC set gear drops in a place set up for fabled out players. Also my HERIOC Marr cloak takes me to that same zone.<BR><BR>I could care less what happens to raiders. I mean hell sony give them 20 new raids zones if you must but please leave the heroic zones to the normal poeple please. Or at very least make the armor sets drop in another zone and dont force a poor casual gamer to go to that zone for his claok.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>With the new mit curve, fabled means jack all. If you seriously think 5% less mitigation is what's causing you to wipe in CMM, you're mistaken.</P> <P>You need a well-organised group with the right classes, and you need to single pull without error. You need 2 healers, and ideally an enchanter/bard. Gear is largely irrelevant. I think raiders have an advantage more because they're using the handling large spike damage, avoiding adds, and maximising their DPS. Certainly when I pull in there I treat it more like a raid than a heroic "fire an arrow across the room and let the healers pick up the slack" instance.</P> <P>The Marr cloak can be done by 2 people, because the mob you need to kill is a regular heroic and not buffed to the hilt like the other mobs in there. You can invis there, if you simply wait for someone to clear the first 3 mobs, or you get lucky and they pop with no see-invis ones in the group.</P> <P>I agree you're screwed with regards to your legendary class armor set, since we were getting server firsts on the legs off an epicx2 just a few days ago (although, on the plus side, they are tradable). It may be doable with one group but it would be a case of using every trick in the book. IMO all the pieces of this set should be off Heroic encounters. I can only guess, since we've killed all the x2 mobs we could find, that the breastplate drops off an x4, or is extremely rare. Either way it will be a pain to get.</P>

[Kage8]

<div><blockquote><hr>TuinalOfTheNexus wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Kage848 wrote: <div> <blockquote>I think the thing some people are [Removed for Content] about (at lest the thing im [Removed for Content] about) is MM. MM Castle is a Heroic zone and the normal Leg/Master gear people (Non-Raiders in short) cannot do this zone. I have been told horror stories of Non-cureable stuns, agro through walls and stories about needed 2 non-raided grps working together to get to the bottom.Is only 4 new raid zones weak? Perhaps, but thats no reason to design a Heroic zone just for fabled out people. Its not the Heroic players fault your fabled out and find the normal heroic zones to easy nor should we pay a price for that. If HoF, Den and PoA were to easy for you then try tanking it without your Bp and pants. Try doing them duo. Hell try playing with your right hand tied behind your back if you must.The set armor drops in certian places. I know parts drop in MM castle. There for MY HEROIC set gear drops in a place set up for fabled out players. Also my HERIOC Marr cloak takes me to that same zone.I could care less what happens to raiders. I mean hell sony give them 20 new raids zones if you must but please leave the heroic zones to the normal poeple please. Or at very least make the armor sets drop in another zone and dont force a poor casual gamer to go to that zone for his claok.</blockquote></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>With the new mit curve, fabled means jack all. If you seriously think 5% less mitigation is what's causing you to wipe in CMM, you're mistaken.</p> <p>You need a well-organised group with the right classes, and you need to single pull without error. You need 2 healers, and ideally an enchanter/bard. Gear is largely irrelevant. I think raiders have an advantage more because they're using the handling large spike damage, avoiding adds, and maximising their DPS. Certainly when I pull in there I treat it more like a raid than a heroic "fire an arrow across the room and let the healers pick up the slack" instance.</p> <p>The Marr cloak can be done by 2 people, because the mob you need to kill is a regular heroic and not buffed to the hilt like the other mobs in there. You can invis there, if you simply wait for someone to clear the first 3 mobs, or you get lucky and they pop with no see-invis ones in the group.</p> <p>I agree you're screwed with regards to your legendary class armor set, since we were getting server firsts on the legs off an epicx2 just a few days ago (although, on the plus side, they are tradable). It may be doable with one group but it would be a case of using every trick in the book. IMO all the pieces of this set should be off Heroic encounters. I can only guess, since we've killed all the x2 mobs we could find, that the breastplate drops off an x4, or is extremely rare. Either way it will be a pain to get.</p><hr></blockquote>Well thats good to hear about the cloak as i really do want that. I thank you for the tips.I can only hope that sony stops F'in around and makes the Leg/set gear drop off Heroic mobs only in the near future.But i dobelive 5% mit means alot more than you belive. I have changed my mit by 5% in the past by giveing up some dps type gear and such and have notoiced a diff while tanking. You just cant write off 5% mit....It dont make you godly but it does make a diff.Again thks for the advise and tips on MM i do apreciate it.</div>

[WolfSha]

<P>Sorry, but as far as gear nerfs go it was raiders that got the kick in the teeth, not the average player with raiders being the ones bearing the large brunt of the nerf.</P> <P>What they do seem to have done however is to make all heroic stuff harder, requireing better tactics and organisation.  That applies to everyone, regardless of gear.</P> <P>I can quite happily tank tarinax without any probs - i have the gear to do so..  but I can also quite happily zone into a heroic instance and get my grouped wiped in 5 seconds flat if i run around thinking i'm god.  Yes raid gear makes it a little easier, but the difference now is MUCH less now than it was - be happy that you're now 5% rather than 10% behind as you were pre-EoF.</P> <P>Sounds like you're just biting off more than you can chew.  There's plently of legendary gear in KoS that's obtainable in xegonite.  As far as i can see EoF is effectively a tier above KoS even though the levels are the same.  The raid zones kinda pick up where deathtoll left off and the heroic instances seem to pick up where the KoS ones left off.  Go back to KoS, gear up with legendary from there, then head to EoF instances.</P> <P>One thing i do agree with is that most of the legendary should be dropping off heroic mobs, raiders don't want a loot table full of legendary stuff - we want fabled, and non-raiders don't want to be told all their gear drops of epics.  Kinda stupid having it the way it is.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class=date_text>12-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:26 AM</span>

[Kage8]

<div><blockquote><hr>WolfShark wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <p>Sorry, but as far as gear nerfs go it was raiders that got the kick in the teeth, not the average player with raiders being the ones bearing the large brunt of the nerf.</p> <p>What they do seem to have done however is to make all heroic stuff harder, requireing better tactics and organisation.  That applies to everyone, regardless of gear.</p> <p>I can quite happily tank tarinax without any probs - i have the gear to do so..  but I can also quite happily zone into a heroic instance and get my grouped wiped in 5 seconds flat if i run around thinking i'm god.  Yes raid gear makes it a little easier, but the difference now is MUCH less now than it was - be happy that you're now 5% rather than 10% behind as you were pre-EoF.</p> <p>Sounds like you're just biting off more than you can chew.  There's plently of legendary gear in KoS that's obtainable in xegonite.  As far as i can see EoF is effectively a tier above KoS even though the levels are the same.  The raid zones kinda pick up where deathtoll left off and the heroic instances seem to pick up where the KoS ones left off.  Go back to KoS, gear up with legendary from there, then head to EoF instances.</p> <p>One thing i do agree with is that most of the legendary should be dropping off heroic mobs, raiders don't want a loot table full of legendary stuff - we want fabled, and non-raiders don't want to be told all their gear drops of epics.  Kinda stupid having it the way it is.</p> <p><span class="time_text"></span> </p><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class="date_text">12-10-2006</span> <span class="time_text">07:26 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>The only piece of Xeg i have is the pants. Rest is nice Leg from labs and a couple fableds. The Oblisk/CoV and such are pretty nice, my only complaint is MM.And yes it does suck that Fabled gear dont give as much of a bonus as it did before but the raiders have no one to blame but themselves. I have seen and heard alot of complaining that raiders had to easy of a time in this zone and that. " I raid 24/5 and 2 days of the weak im off and the Herioc zones are too easy" They complained they did all the content and were bored. Now Sony has made it harder for them and there still not happy lol.SoE just fix MM, or take the Leg/set armor drops and cloak quest out of there and leave it the way it is. I dont care what change you do but please do one.And now there mad there gear dont give as much of a bonus as it did before?</div>