Disscussion: RAID Tanking as a Zerker post EoF: Skills, APs, Equiptment.

[YummiOger]

<DIV>Given the undefined importance of +Melee Skills per the Devs, Are the Wisdom Final and +Melee Adornments now must haves?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians get a +melee skill buff, we get +Str, fair trade off imo. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>+melee skills r EZ to aquire it seems (Warden, Dirge, Adornments, WisAP Crusader)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does this effect the strength of the STAM line in a tanking situation? maby INT line for the +Parry?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aviodance seems to play a much bigger role in combat as of now. Is :<FONT color=#ff0066>Mitigation>All</FONT> , still True? ,,what of HPs? Aviod?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Given the deminishing returns cap on Mitigation (break even set too low imo) what is the appropriate mitigation to tank zones? Labs? HoF? DT? EoF Raid Zones? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>im still trying to get my head around many of these questions myself and if information is avaliable im sure i ,as well as others, could learn from it.</DIV>

[Hummer123]

I am seriously considering ditching buckler line myself and start using a Tower Shield for tanking just because parry and such seems to matter much more, and perhaps getting the end line ability and remove penalties associated with defensive stance. I raid tank, and at the moment, the buckler line doesn't do it for me, I take some really nasty hits these days, and a lot of them.Now, I haven't had a chance to test any of these things myself, so if any of you have, I would love to see some parses or hear your experiences with holding agro in a raid doing top notch dps without a buckler. <div></div>

[Buckshot]

<DIV>Wisdom ultimate was a significant upgrade for me. The + melee skills is imperative too have, regardless of what source you get it from if you're tanking you need too look into that. Keep in mind using a Warden and a Templar for your MT group you can get, I beleive this is accurate, 79.7 additional skills from their buffs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Old world raids are pretty easy these days. If all your guild is doing is Labs and Lyceum and getting mopped in EoF then keep your buckler, but if you have a desire too tank new content, kiss it goodbye. </DIV>

[Hummer123]

I respecced to the endline of wisdom, and agro seemed just as stable with str/wis as it was with buckler, yet I took less hits and had an easier time hitting mobs, and aoe dps wasn't significantly lower either, guess the crits had more of an impact then I thought.Hitting EH today, so I guess that's where the true test happens <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Wargurine]

I respec'd slightly to get the end line in wis since I couldn't hit anything while in def stance, but I kept my buckler. I am now 4/4/8/5 sta, and 4/4/4/8/1 wis and I tank just fine.  I have tanked clockwork, free thinkers, and emerald halls with this build, and did just fine. Buckler is still a very viable option to raid tank with, especially w/o the cyclone line ultimate as taunts get resisted so dang much, now that I got that my taunts are rarely resisted, just gotta get used to the new AE range /shrug<div></div>

[Kyyz]

<DIV>Well I personally have never gone Buckler line so I cant coment on it. But I am my guilds MT and we have killed Tarinax and a few of the contested.  I Have been Agi/Wis line for the added mitigation and multi target engagement. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=260743104" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=260743104</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im one of the top zerkers on my server as far as gear and stats go. Post EoF there were a few hick-ups with the combat system as KoS was not properly coded..Go figure.  Anyway. I have found that Labs is much easyer than before easyly clearing the zone in less than 2hr.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tried Freethinkers last week and that was just a bloody mess. First named who I like to call "Puppy" served us quite a few deaths. as he was dropping his vases ever 20sec and summoning/fearing approx 6-10 people every 20 sec. was a real chore keeping me alive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Agro management I have noticed a slight decrease in my ability to hold agro. The fix we came up with was I would take a extra 5 or so seconds on the mobs gaining agro then let the bombs fly. That brought it back in line with Pre EoF standards.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raid buffed I stand at about 6500mit and about 8000avoid. 12.5k hp</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[atjtennis]

LIke Kyyzan I never messed with the buckler I never liked it. I'm spec'd atm str 4/4/8/8 (For extra hate and crit chances) and wis 4/4/8/8. Currently have 10 pts in the EoF stuff working my towrads the cyclone end ability first. In raids we have been doing for some time giving me roughyl 5-10 secs to get aggro then go nuts. Not having any problem with aggro in raids. Now in groups that is a different issue. If I don't have someone with some hate transfer then I'm losing it to monks and brigands pretty easily, but then again these new EoF zones I swear I spend about 50% of the fight stunned, so that isn't helping with aggro either.my profile http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=111003105I know some people are picking up the end ability in the wisdom line so they don't get the penalties from defensive. I'm not having trouble hitting the mobs right now so atm not going to do that.My biggest issue atm is still waiting for a decent BP drop and to replace the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] claymore shoulders,doomrage has never dropped neither the bp or the shoulders totally sucks.The biggest difference post EoF for me is that I have rangers/assassins do a lot more pulls in both raids and instances since aggro ranges are just massive in EoF.

[atjtennis]

Also make sure you are working on getting your equipment adornments on them. Yes they are expensive but worth the cost if you have some of the stuff from DT etc. Also you cannot stick adornments on the claymore quest stuff just fyiI've got +150 health on my light chitin ring which finally makes me not wnat to cry everytiem I put it on and +100 health/+100 power on my wurmslayer ringAlso you can get +67 vs slahsing,piericng and crushing on both your wrists, shield, and forearms. +400 health on shoulders, +400 power to your helmetSo there is plenty of good stuff out there

[kal-l]

<P>Has anyone experimented with the + to block % adornments?  You can stick them on the same slots as the + miti adornments.  The reason I'm considering the block instead is the new diminishing returns system.  We already have ways to get lots of mitigation but avoidance not so much.  With four of the block adornments that's an additional 4% to block which is the best type of avoidance to have since it ignores the mobs crush/pierce/slash skill.  Four of the mitigation adornments gives +268 which isn't a lot with diminishing returns system.</P> <P>Anyone played with these at all?  If so please let us know what your experiences have been.</P>

[Kyyz]

<P>speaking of Adornments I been wondering with the way mobs been hitting now and to ease up on the healers there are alot of slotted items with heal procs and was wondering what ya all think the feasability of having like 4-5 items with heal procs on them if that would make things better.  Currently I have these adornments.</P> <P> </P> <P>+400hp shoulder</P> <P>+400power helm</P> <P>+14sta legs</P> <P>+14sta feet</P> <P>+150hp ring</P> <P>freezing temper on my 1h primary 240 cold damage with dot</P> <P>If I do want to use adornments on my shield I will have to switch from my Qeynos guard to probably the one that drops off Last named in Lycium.</P> <P> </P> <P>Have not decided what I want on my wrist  forarm (holding out for Amorpious drake to drop my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Forearms) and other ring</P>

[YummiOger]

<DIV>Kal brings up a good point. At what piont in time is the deminishing returns on MIT  overcame by +Aviodance items?. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now the trick is this ==> Mitigation is Adjusted/penalized Vs Mobs Lv.  and Aviodance is Adjusted/penalized on the up/down arrows. brawlers have been posting 70% aviod actualy only = ~25% vs Yellow Epics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is 6500 raid mit a solid spot for Tank duty? then start building aviod?. How does +DEF add into the equation? DEF also effects Mob Hit/Miss but is it adjusted or a fixed rate?.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If Aviod is not preferable over +DEF or +HATE.. the INT line for the +parry would seem weak and STR/AGIL lines would be superior.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>im going to run some parses and watch out MTs Mit/Aviod #s tonight to try and get a better idea. ill post some #'s maby later</DIV>

[Wargurine]

I would honestly say don't waste you money on the heal proc adornments. I had a parry one and a riposte one on my wrists, and a block one on my shield, and on avg in a week of raid tanking I was being healed for about 600 hp's per raid. Thats pretty low and not worth the costs of the adornment. Same with the +14 parry on my forearm, that didn't really give much return either, so I went for +mit on both wrists, my shield, and my forearm, and I also got a vampiric proc on my shadow axe, but if a freakin ascendant would ever drop I would put a power tap proc on it since a lot of the EoF fights have a lot of power drains and/or really long fights. I would say that mit is still king over avoidance, even with the changes. Because avoidance still doesn't work very well againts epics and mitigation does.<div></div>

[YummiOger]

<DIV>some stats from last night.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bezerker MT standing @6355 Mitigation, 13,300 HPs and 60.8% aviodance useing Tower Sheild, Wisdpm/Str AP lines.  We ran thru Labs pretty EZ, actually 1 of the EZer runs we have went thru. He still held aggro well only loosing occasionally to 1500+ dps players. Assassin + Dirge in MT group. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Next up was a shot at Freethinkers. the 74x4's was doing some serious damage according to ACT, but is to be expected from EoF. but was still very doable. wiped a few times to spike damage off of "puppy":smileyvery-happy:. and a few bad pulls with multiple encoutnters on trash.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From a DPS end, i was useing Buckler and was holding 800-1000ish DPS, MT Zerker was running more 1000+ish DPS. Had a Warden in my group to buff +melee skills. According to my log, Me Vs lv 74x4 mobs i was Hitting an average of 79.7% with 428 Slashing skill. i counted 100 consecutive swings/misses on 10 mobs. I bet hitting the new s/c/p cap of 455 would pull it up to maby 85%+, which is acceptiable for me. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Thor Of Hal]

<DIV>Personally, I believe that c/s/p are now essential and mitigation yet remains your primary means of % survivability on most, if not all, mobs.  This is because:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Mobs hit v. hard now - and CRITICAL MELEE HITS ARE BACK! <- feckin sobs!</DIV> <DIV>2. We have gained no significant direct hate generators in aas. Thus dps remains our key factor in hate.</DIV> <DIV>3. Because of point 2 we MUST hit our mobs!  even if they debuff us!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As i said in  '[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] have then done to us thread?' we do not have much a benefit as guardians would seem to have, so instead we must focus our abilities the best we can.  So that means for </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HATE + c/s/p as more hits = more hate.  Can also go down dps lines.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MITIGATION + as much as you can. I dont think SoE has properly addressed it, they have nerfed its uber power with higher numbers. Which, maybe partly why we are seeing heroics hit so dam hard.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AVOIDANCE- I still dont believe this essential or at least it shouldnt be, this is the Monks/Bruisers areas of expertise.  Granted you should not [Removed for Content] your avoidance... but if you concentrate on it... u will be a monk/bruiser wannabe and coz of the armour bonuses etc we can not hope to match em... so bascially ull just be a [Removed for Content] tank if you inc ur avoidance over to high of a level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OTHER RESISTS Again if you look at parses i believe ull see that the autoattack on most of the mobs is still the principle area of damage.... so although other resists are more important i still dont think they are as important as mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Adorments can help you out.  The + c/s/p one looks uber, so do the hp and power.  I tend to go for mitigation more then nething, but at the same time i would choose more carefull with avoidance bonuses now.  Coz its important to balance it now.  And i believe power drain/gain proc are better then hp... most raids bosses youll find power a big issue.  Once u run out, u cant spam CAs or Taunts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the buckler i still thing its an efficient way of mainting agro, the extra hits it grants you are of great value coz you will hold agro with the double attack more then some who doesnt have it.  hence not cheweing power up, it may be small but worth it.  And personally i think the penalty removal aa line on def/off stance is still not that great, coz you still loose out on either miti or double attack or avoidance to get the aa points for it.  Its better to get a adorment for it i believe,   we should get the group c/s/p grp buff not guardians! ffs.  Add our single zerk proc to our group proc one and give us that <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally im tryin out the hp regen lines to see how it increases my % survivability in raids, the idea being that <STRONG><U>IF</U></STRONG> its significant enough, it means it may give healers an overall break, and MIGHT negate the guardians direct blocks w/ his/her shield over the looong run... but this is probably a load of balls. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So still think that its Mitigation -> hp -> other resists/avoidance.  Instead of Mitigation -> hp -> avoidance -> other resists....  Although less sure of it then before, also im not at 100 aa points and not got all adorments + new lewtz from zones.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[katshimoto]

Have anyone tried out the new legendary kite shield B'Riareos 'Defender?? I believe it dropped off the x2 zone somewhere in eof....protection: 1191sta :20 STR35 STA<div></div>15 WIS125 HP75 POWERsome resists....** with 50% chance to proc 750 hate to target encounterthink we can replace this with the ultimate buckler set up? lol

[MellowBob]

It's a kite shield and it procs on a block only.<div></div>

[Nembutal]

Heal procs are never large enough or reliable enough to substitute over MIT boosters... However a heal proc on a sword as an adornment is the most defensive thing you can get.You can +67 vs crush/slash/pierce : bracer x2, forearm, shield (that's 268 MIT peeps!)You can +400 HP : ArmsYou can +150 HP : Ring x2You can +400 Mana : HeadYou can +3 Flowing thought : CloakYou can +10 DPS : neckI have all that stuff now excluding the rings....  and it DOES help.  But it's about the lamest way to fix your toon ever... and since you can't tank in xeogonite and xegonite isn't even worth adorning... well.. it leaves MOST people unable to do thier jobs.Relic Gloves are a good help.... they are now my favorite relic piece due to the +6 slashing and the good MIT/resists... I am STA/WIS with stance mastery... and I still have issues in really good gear compared to most people (click my sig to see it if you want) Last I checked I had the 15th highest melee hit for a zerker on my servery... 15th... I have stance mastery... so between those 2 I should have no probs holding aggro compared to most zerkers... lol... if that is true I really really pity all of you guys.. because aggro jumps around so much without corercer/dirge/assassin buffsI feel I only tank like 50% of each fight.We are a broken class... however I feel our whole archetype has been broken.   I mean if I can't hold aggro or mitigate dmg to what I consider an acceptable level in my gear with my AAs... then most players in any of the fighter archetypes probably can't either.  The reports I get back from other fighters collaborate my guess... because they say they can't hold aggro or tank very good either.I like DPS... I do... and it was cool that I held aggro by doing more DPS than other people... however DPS isn't my job.... holding aggro was my job.... and still is my job... and I can't do it right.  Not only do I have to hold aggro... but I have to have a reason for it... like mitigating or avoiding more damage than other people.BTW Stifles and Stuns from NPCs onto a tank have to occur at a lower rate than they do... or maybe just not land on a tank as often.. when I pull a mob the last thing I need to do is get stunned and have it charge my healer... thats absolute B.S. IMHO.  In those cases.. which occur is seems one fight in 20... I am an absolute useless piece of garbage... and I don't log into games to lower my self esteem OK... I have low enough self esteem as it is...<div></div>

[YummiOger]

<P>Here is a good question i thought of... Agility AP line Final.. <FONT color=#66ffff>Dragoon Reflexes</FONT> = Parry All inc attacks for ~12secs, Stifles Caster</P> <P>Does Berate cast thru the Stifle on Reflexes?.. IF it does u could: Wall-> Weapon Ageis -> Destruction -> PULL -> Gibe -> Reflexes-> Berate.  How much Hate would be accumulated at the experation of the Reflexes?. passive aggro  would be the Wall proc, Damage (Via DPS, Destruction, Ageis) Gibe Proc, Passive hate buff, and Berate. Could the Debuffers Debuff the Big Named durin g that 12s without pulling aggro?.. Shamans and Brigs/swash in only for debuffs untill Reflexe dropped?.</P> <P>Just a thought. Would the Agil Final be a good investment in the new world order? 8P</P> <P> </P>

[Kyyz]

<DIV>Well im AGI/WIS line and I do have Dragoon reflexes I cant begin to say how great this ability is. Many many times has it saved my as as well as the raids in a rough fight. It does stifle you and you cant taunt for 12 sec.  Even though I think it is a very valuable skill to any Raid MT zerker. If you have Gibe going when you hit this you will still gibe though.</DIV>

[Chaostik]

<div><blockquote><hr>Kyyzan wrote:<div>Well im AGI/WIS line and I do have Dragoon reflexes I cant begin to say how great this ability is. Many many times has it saved my as as well as the raids in a rough fight. It does stifle you and you cant taunt for 12 sec.  Even though I think it is a very valuable skill to any Raid MT zerker. If you have Gibe going when you hit this you will still gibe though.</div><hr></blockquote>Glad to have found someone who took this as I was always very tempted by it but couldn't find an exact description.  Would you mind just posting to clarify this in my mind Kyyzan?When you pop Dragoon's Reflexes you are effectively impossible to hit for 12 secs ... now I understand you are stifled during that, but does the recovery timer of 12 secs run in parallel or only start <i>after</i> it wears off.  In other words, are you stifled *only* while reflexing, or are you stifled while reflexing *and* for another 12 secs after that?Sorry - I know that's not what this thread is about, but I wanted to ask while I spotted someone who uses it.Thanks</div>

[Kyyz]

<DIV>Yes when you hit Dragoon reflexes you basicly become invulernable You can however still take AOE damage and your healers can heal you while in this 12sec stifle. kinda funny while the mob tries to hit you your sword/axe parry every blow from all frontal mobs. Thing is make sure nothing is behind you because you can still be hit from behind. Has reuse timer of 10min.</DIV>

[Thor Of Hal]

lol thats rubbish

[Kyyz]

<DIV>whats rubbish?</DIV>

[YummiOger]

<DIV>Ok i respeced to Agil4/4/4/4/1 Wis4/4/4/5/1 last week ... and i must say Im REALLY likeing the Agility line. the AE Auto attack is at 12% w/ 4 pionts, +Def, +Agil for aviod, and <FONT color=#66ffff>DRAGOON REFLEXES</FONT>.. wow .. damage just stops ... period. tonight alone i used Reflexes 3 times (1 time i was at 15hps! LOL) and survived. im impressed with this skill. the Stunn/Stife is total. u r immoble for 12s.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I took the Wisdom fianal as seeing how our melee skills r very important. Seems to be working well. and with 5ap i still get +200mit. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mitigation Values seem to trail off badly at around 6500+ mitigation (the slope is too steep?)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only problem i am having now is my DPS output after dropping the Stamina line, maby i am just spioled on high parses with buckler. Therefore given that Taunts r being resisted at a higher%, my Aggro Suffers and i loos aggro to high DPS classes. i use to be able to hold Vs a 1700dps wizard, but now that is proving difficult. Aggro spells from Coercer and Dirge r % based so if im making less DPS and Taunts r not sticking, the agrro ratio suffers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im still not convensed of the Wisdom Line's importance. Given that 6500+ standing Mit is good enough and there is a +melee skill in group. Why Take Wisdom?.. +melee and +mit is attainable WITHOUT AP investment. can double attack? dragoon reflexes? +block? +crits? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>hmmm more thought is needed.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Bremer]

<div></div>Dragoon Reflexes has technically no stun, it has a 12 sec recovery time, so you can do nothing until these 12 seconds have passed. But there are spells that reduce recovery time, for the normal 0.5 recovery time pretty useless, but for Dragoon Reflexes nice.The main reason we are getting hit more in EoF is simply that the mobs do more damage, so I changed nothing in my basic AA setup. Sta and wis with Stance Mastery (with this I have solo a melee skill of 350, on raid with Templar ~360, and have a hit rate of ~50% (with Warden 70-80%, but not always avaible), I don't want to know how low it will get without Stance Mastery).I think the tradeoff less avoidance for more DPS for more hate gain is still a good deal. I'm looking forward to get the fabled buckler from the werewolf in Freethinker's, than the avoidance gap to a tower shield will become even smaller.As everybody knows, our Eof-AAs suck (only boring minor enhancements, if you see what other classes get, they can replace spells with new ones, add new effects, etc and the final abilities an own topic), but anyways, I spend 5 points an Weapon Aegis, Wall of Ferocity, Violent Pledge, Mayhem. The next points I'll spend on Destruction and Open Wounds and in the end I think I'll take a look at Gut Roar, if not only I had to waste 15 points on useless enhancements in the line to unlock it...<div></div><p>Nachricht bearbeitet von Bremer am <span class=date_text>12-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:52 PM</span>