What's up with Crusaders getting to use bows now?

[infernus006]

So now Pallies and SK's get to use bows...good for them, but we still can't use symbols.  I don't like this.  How do you feel about it? <div></div>

[Dimgl]

<font color="#00cc99">They can't use throwing weapons still, but I at least would like the option of using symbols. I'd also like the option of using some of the "caster" gear that crusaders get access to that we don't, like the reactive proc ring from Obelisk of Blight ...</font><div></div>

[therearenonames]

Just a question out of curiosity....I have a lvl 18 Beserker and a lvl 25 SK.  My bezerker is much more damage capable than my SK ever was.....will this always be the same?

[ChopStix]

<P>you might try rolling a paladin.. the paladins dps is very much lower compared to a beserker.... i think soe adding the bow for crusaders might have been an attempt to help the paladin/sk dps maybe, but i dont think it matters, paladins are pretty much useless in my opinion.. i have a lvl70 paladin, and a lvl65 beserker<- my reroll , my beserker will out dps my paladin easily.. besides a zerk can also dual wield and a pally cant.. my beserker can also take more damage than my paladin can- mitigation being the factor , and also has a better percentage of power consumption compared to my paladin by far..</P> <P> </P> <P>you can not compare the beserker and the paladin class's..</P>

[rivj0r]

Probably the most annoying part of this is that fabled bows have some pretty awesome stat bonuses, and once the assasins and rangers are decked out its bards, us and guardians next on the list. But not anymore. Paladorks and shadownobodies get to roll on them to. Sometimes I think paladins must be the most hardcore whingers ever. They get access to everything. Our heals aren't strong enough. We can't use tower shields. Our fluff horse isn't fast enough. blah blah blah. Cheese with that? Oh you have loads already... right. So long as they never beat me for dmg I promise not to flip my lid. Still... I wouldn't mind having some magic blast that somehow doesn't pull adds to use for pulling when I'm out of arrows. And symbols would help the WIS attrib. But no! Leave it alone! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[EvilIguana9]

<hr size="2" width="100%"><div></div>I wouldn't mind having some magic blast that somehow doesn't pull adds to use for pulling when I'm out of arrows.<hr size="2" width="100%">I wouldn't mind either.  Where would I get it?

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>I just don't get it because Crusaders have never needed bows, they've always had their ranged nukes and pets to work with.  Bows have always been and continue to be the only ranged attack available to Warriors and we have been the only fighter classes able to use them but now they get to use bows too and we don't get anything extra out of the deal, so yeah I'm kind of miffed about that.  First it was tower sheilds and I didn't even complain about that but now bows too?  Then they got the ability to use symbols in their ranged slot that always have way better stats than any bow ever does.  It's going way too far IMO.  We should get a ranged nuke and be able to use symbols too then since they get to use our bows now.  Maybe I would like to be able to equip one of those uber Cobalt symbols that has the +85 to all mitigation and resists and still be able to pull a mob from 35m at the same time!  Maybe we should even get some heals while we're at it and a WIS buff for extra resists too.  An STA buff would be nice too since Crusaders get one and we don't.  The list goes on... <div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>11-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:29 AM</span>

[EvilIguana9]

<blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div>I just don't get it because Crusaders have never needed bows, they've always had their ranged nukes and pets to work with.  Bows have always been and continue to be the only ranged attack available to Warriors and we have been the only fighter classes able to use them but now they get to use bows too and we don't get anything extra out of the deal, so yeah I'm kind of miffed about that.  First it was tower sheilds and I didn't even complain about that but now bows too?  Then they got the ability to use symbols in their ranged slot that always have way better stats than any bow ever does.  It's going way too far IMO.  We should get a ranged nuke and be able to use symbols too then since they get to use our bows now.  Maybe I would like to be able to equip one of those uber Cobalt symbols that has the +85 to all mitigation and resists and still be able to pull a mob from 35m at the same time!  Maybe we should even get some heals while we're at it and a WIS buff for extra resists too.  An STA buff would be nice too since Crusaders get one and we don't.  The list goes on... <div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">11-23-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:29 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Well, I have been getting used to my new bow, but honesty I am not part of the segment of population that will use it heavily.  Honestly I'm not opposed to letting you guys use symbols except for the fact that warriors alreaday have a ton of ways to increase mitigation and we have exactly none beyond our gear which, except for the symbol, is basically the same as yours.  BTW, paladins don't get a sta buff, shadow knights do, as do guardians, so you're only half right about crusaders.  The thing you are not considering when you ask for parity in changes, though, is whether there was parity to start off with.  I argue that there was not, and still is not.  An equally geared and equally well played berserker can still out tank me in every situation, out dps me in every situation, and hold aggro better than I in many if not a majority of situations (you'd be surprised how many things cause amends to get bugged).  When it comes down to it, the ability to use bows means very little except that raiding paladins can do better damage when jousting and we now have a way to pull without using power if we ever have the need to do so.  <div></div>

[Clailmebe]

<P>Symbols to me seem more for a person of faith, as such a pally and sk get symbols. Bows were probably given because in pvp, zerks and guard's would kite them with bows, and since crusader  ranged spells cant be cast on the run, they would loose.</P> <P>really i dont see the big deal about the whole thing =/</P>

[Rylight]

this is my first time on the zerker forums. I dont do this very often, but I've been an sk since day one and know sk's pretty much top to bottom. honestly I think the reason why we have recently recieved bows where because of the pvp evac changes. with the new evac changes, scouts or any class for that matter can no longer evac mid battle, however they can still run, and once they start running there isnt alot we can do about it because we cant use our spells while running (though yes we do have a 12 sec snare and HT of course, assuming its up and assuming we want to use it, honestly I try to use it as little as possible in pvp) the point being is that now when we do get those occasional runners we can actually do something about it. thats just my 2 cents anyways. and honestly I kinda doubt you would want the symbols, heck I have a bow now and there is no way I am switching out, but if they give warriors symbols then more power to you. (honestly im not sure why they just dont go back to the system were sk's could cast there long range spells on the run, but hey, im not a dev.) <div></div>

[Mythicman]

<div></div>Yeah, as a 61 SK, I guess I'll probably only equip a bow if I can't find a symbol with better - or even close - stats.  I can't imagine ever actually using it.  I already have 35 meters range on my wrath line which has a snare, so, I'm not going out of my way to use a bow - the extra 5 meters are pretty useless anyway, expecially with the crazy social aggro these days.  If I want to use a bow, I'll play my ranger...or my zerker.  Though, I guess on PvP it might be a different story.  I sometimes wonder if the changes made to improve PvP don't sometimes nerf stuff in PvE.  Though, now I'm curious...is evac on PvP able to be used during NPC battles and just not PvP battles?<div></div><p>Message Edited by Mythicman on <span class=date_text>11-28-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:49 AM</span>

[infernus006]

<i>"Symbols to me seem more for a person of faith, as such a pally and sk get symbols."</i> I agree, and using a bow instead of a symbol doesn't seem to fit very well with that kind of image to me.  Bows are for scouts and warriors that must rely more on physical objects to do their work, not holymen who have devine powers and use magical spells to get the same things done.  But oh well.  What I would really like at this point is to start seeing some special bows with nice mitigation and resist bonuses that are only useable by warriors so they are not so gimped in comparison with many of the symbols that are used by tanking crusaders. <div></div>

[Gortesh]

Well, SK's and Pallies can ALSO use books as well, maybe as a berserker, I want to carry around a book that ''gives me more knowledge on fighting abilities''.I think its stupid that their giving other classes more of an arsenel when they don't need it, SK's/Pallies can boost some of their stats higher than ours because thye have access to some pretty good books/symbols, bows/throwing sashes are somewhat of a pain to find if your looking for stats.I DEMAND BOOKS TO READ WHILE I FIGHT!!!!<div></div>

[t0iletduck]

Im of the assumption that this was a pvp change as well. In fact my original pvp toon was a pally but i switched to zerker because they could use bows. I just got fed up with people being able to run from me and not having any recourse. If they made it so that you could cast spells on the run, then it would be a non issue. Honestly though i don't think this is a big deal. Now if they gave crusaders 30 second mit buffs and AA's to boost mitigation then i'm sure the fur would fly hehe. <div></div>

[infernus006]

<i>"Now if they gave crusaders 30 second mit buffs and AA's to boost mitigation then i'm sure the fur would fly hehe."</i> Pallies get heals...SK's get lifetaps.  Warriors get extra mitigation buffs. <div></div>

[t0iletduck]

<div><blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote:<i>"Now if they gave crusaders 30 second mit buffs and AA's to boost mitigation then i'm sure the fur would fly hehe."</i> Pallies get heals...SK's get lifetaps.  Warriors get extra mitigation buffs. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Aye, im not saying crusaders should. My main point was that crusaders getting a bow isn't a big deal. I was just saying that IF crusaders got 30 second mit buffs or mit AA's, then some real whining would begin hehe.</div>

[ParlMoebius]

<DIV>I dont see what the issue is either really.  Absolutely no reason why zerkers should have symbols, and truthfully, its not that far of a stretch for a paladin to use a bow.  What, they wouldnt be capable of learning the skills necessary?  And a zerker or guardian would?  It seems like it would be much harder for a warrior to find the spiritual means to take advantage of a symbol than it would for a crusader to learn the skills to use a bow.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In non-PVP, from a damage standpoint as a zerker, the only time I really use my bow is to pull in situations that do not require body pulls.  So then it comes down to a stat booster.  And it comes down to people complaining because there's 2 more classes now that they have to roll against for the item.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I understand its more critical in PvP, but I support the changes there for what it will provide.</DIV>

[Margen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> infernus006 wrote:<BR><I>"Now if they gave crusaders 30 second mit buffs and AA's to boost mitigation then i'm sure the fur would fly hehe."</I><BR><BR>Pallies get heals...SK's get lifetaps.  Warriors get extra mitigation buffs.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>In raids though our Lifetaps are EXTREMLY underpowered, the bow is really only for using in range fights in raids.  As for our spells, before we could use bows, when our Guardian was tanking, our beserker was doing more damage with his bow then I was doing casting every spell I had when ever it recycled.  As for the Pet, it doesn't add much to dps in range fights due to it dies from those AOE's.</P> <P>Considering that Beserker do more damage then SK's in melee and have more mitigation, don't see how you all can complain about us getting to use bows.</P>

[Bruener]

<P>This post is too funny.  Just like the bezerker from my guild for some reason most of you really just don't want to give up some of the monopoly you have.  Warriors can use far more weapons as it is compared to Crusaders...why should they be able to put out awesome damage using a bow for no power, be able to do it on the run, while crusaders couldn't?</P> <P>Personally, I think Warriors need to step back and look at all the "gifts" they have been given from day 1, and than maybe you guys can compare those to what Crusaders have had to fight to get since launch.  Crusaders use bows.  They did in EQ1 and they are now.</P>

[Huna]

<DIV>Warriors used to do "awesome" damage with bows in ranged before they "fixed" the bug that was applying double attack to ranged attacks.   Now you guys have a bow, and you are telling me that you can just sit back and fire the bow all raid and beat your normal dps? If not, then neither can we.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I don't have a problem with crusaders getting a bow, but I don't understand why crusaders would have a problem with warriors getting symbols?  I mean, it's not like we would become overpowered or anything, crusaders arguing against it are no different than the warriors that argued against crusaders getting bows.  </DIV> <DIV>I can live without symbols, but I don't really see a reason that we can't get to use them just for stats.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And lots of warriors especially berserkers "gifts" have been gradually taken away.  We've been nerfed plenty of times since launch, but we still stick with our class and learn to adapt to the changes. </DIV>

[Margen]

<P>Think one issue on the Symbols is that it was warriors that campaigned in tier 7 in taking mitigation off symbols.  I remember seeing many post by warriors complaining about it in Tier six.  </P> <P>I really don't care if warriors get a symbol if that floats your boat, but don't compare the pain crusaders have gone through trying to get some love from developers to the minor issues beserkers have.  You owned the best agro and had the second best defensive abilities, and did the best dps of any plate tank.</P> <P>The Symbols aren't that awe inspiring either, I use the censor that drops in HOS mostly for stats and resist.  If they ever added a fabled symbol that increased our defensive abilities or even made a nice difference to our dps, you might have an argument, but they really don't.</P>

[Nocifer Deathblade]

I oppose Knights getting bows; however, I support knights getting crossbows. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Oldlore]

"Pallies get heals...SK's get lifetaps.  Warriors get extra mitigation buffs."There's also the issue of the mitigation buffs being almost useless with the new diminishing returns curve...something like <2% when I'm in a decent grp.  In most instances I don't even bother throwing it up given that the extra damage mitigated is so little.  Limited use in raids, but almost none in non-raid play.<div></div>

[OrcSlayer96]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hunadi wrote:<BR> <DIV>Warriors used to do "awesome" damage with bows in ranged before they "fixed" the bug that was applying double attack to ranged attacks.   Now you guys have a bow, and you are telling me that you can just sit back and fire the bow all raid and beat your normal dps? If not, then neither can we.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I don't have a problem with crusaders getting a bow, but I don't understand why crusaders would have a problem with warriors getting symbols?  I mean, it's not like we would become overpowered or anything, crusaders arguing against it are no different than the warriors that argued against crusaders getting bows.  </DIV> <DIV>I can live without symbols, but I don't really see a reason that we can't get to use them just for stats.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And lots of warriors especially berserkers "gifts" have been gradually taken away.  We've been nerfed plenty of times since launch, but we still stick with our class and learn to adapt to the changes. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Let's put it this way then, if you look at symbols they say they can be used by mages/priests/crusaders.  All of the classes mentioned either only cast spells or they have quite a few that are spells.  There is a connection between symbols and spells.  The restriction to be a spell caster is you are movement restricted and your spells generally are on a longer cast time than combat arts.  Warriors have no spells, they enjoy casting on the run and have less casting times than spell users yet want a item in the game without paying any penalties.   If you guys want symbols, change your mit buffs and 1/3 of your combat arts to spells and have fun with interupts.  If you are not willing to make that sacrifice, be happy you have your combat arts and larger array of weapons plus dual wield capabilities.</P> <P>I would love to see a range weapon option for mages and priests while we are talking about wishes, a low damage sling or some such would be nice for those spellcasters that are oop and sitting on the sideline.  Personally, as a paladin i love the use of bows for situational fighting, noncrusaders maynot know this but your arrow attack is much smaller agro radius than our damage spells.<BR></P>

[theredraven]

look guys us zerks are good dps, good tank, i could go on...there is no harm in giving pallys guards and sk's bows..all it is is a bunch of crap dmg that is basically useless except for pulling..althought i agree we should have symbols we already have better dps and tanking ability then most warrior classes so we really shouldnt be complaining lol<p>Message Edited by theredraven on <span class=date_text>12-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:29 PM</span>

[grymmstone]

Fine let them have bows!!! I want a battle rez then!!

[khufure]

<div><blockquote><hr>grymmstone wrote:<div></div>Fine let them have bows!!! I want a battle rez then!!<hr></blockquote>Vision of madness.. no not the spell! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Paladins are the suck since LU13.  Really, who cares about a bow?  Is this going to affect anything you do as a zerker?P.S. - our battle rez sucks.  The range on it is about 5 inches.  Ditto our interrupted 50 second heals & ward.</div>

[Margen]

MMMM, looks on hotbar ... Nope no battle rezz.