Feedback on Berserker Subclass (EOF) Achievements

[Dimgl]

<DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Foreword:Hey everyone. Some of you may recognize me as "that teal text guy" or "that guy who did the FAQ." Now that we've had a chance to see what's coming, and before those things are set in stone, I'd like to try to open up a thread regarding feedback on the Berserker Subclass Achievements. So this thread is for constructive criticism and explained opinions of how you feel about the options coming to us in EoF.  This thread may end up long, but bear with us. If you agree or disagree with what is said here, please voice your opinion. Let's try to do the best for our class that we can, and let's try to keep this civil and centralized, so that devs can quickly read it if they happen onto the board. Now with the officialness aside, let's get this started.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Having glanced at various other trees, doing a bit of math, and also comparing the various paths available, I'm going to give my <STRONG><U>opinion</U></STRONG> on the utility, and incentives of the various trees, as well as offer suggestions and alternatives to what we're being offered already.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Having chatted with Syrius (Conjourer) about this quite a bit, I have to say that I am very dissapointed in some of what is coming, however I am hopeful. I respect the EQ2 devs a lot, and I realize that they take high pride in their work. Having worked out the Warrior trees, and having been very satisfied with their work to offer fairly equal and highly differentiated trees, I am now going to do my part to try to offer constructive criticism to improve the Berserker EOF trees to the same quality level, and also hopefully rally my Berserk Brethren behind some of these comments and changes so that when EOF goes live we can all be excited and confused about which tree to take. Not dissapointed, and set in stone on a cookie-cutter max utility build. That being said, here goes:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>As it stands right now the trees don't offer incentive to spend points in them over the KOS trees for new characters, and also they don't offer equally compelling options within each tree. Top this off with ultimates that are turn-offs instead of incentivizing turn-ons to go down trees and you've got weak dissapointing trees.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Furthermore I find it odd that the characteristics that define a berserker are: Debilitation, Perseverance, Bulking and Cyclones. I can agree somewhat with everything but Debilitation. Our class isn't defined in any way by weakening our opponents, we are berserkers, we crush them under our heel as they stand, not wear them </FONT><FONT color=#00cc99>down bit by bit. So I suggest that Debilitation should instead be changed to an "Overpowering" theme. Instead of enhancing our debuffs, it should be where we can enhance our ability to overpower a single target. This can still include debuffs, but should focus on utility, damage, or meaningful shutdown of the </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>enemy.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Comments on specific abilities and trees:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>Debilitation Tree</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>D1: Enhance Violent Pledge: This is actually a pretty good one. +15% threat on this at M1 is actually almost 100 threat every 10 seconds. This would fit with an overpowering theme by making the enemy perceive us as more dangerous than we are.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>D2: Enhance Persistent Battering: Among the worst on the tree. We're talking 5 points for debuffing something like 2 additional combat skills on our opponent. (Suggestions to improve would be to add a short term daze effect to it, or to add a snare effect to this ability.) This would fit overpowering as we've now captured our enemy and left a lingering crippling wound on them.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>D3: Enhance Agonizing Press: Not a bad option at all. Would easily fit "Overpowering" as we've not pressed our enemy to the ground and kept them there longer.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>D4a: Enhance Disfigure: At 5% less attack speed on our opponent this is a pretty sweet deal for 5 points. No complaints here. Could fit either debilitation as well as Overpowering.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>D4b: Enhance Ruthless Strike: By increasing our recast this allows us to better interrupt our opponents and shut down castes. No complains, and in fact I kinda like this ability, between our taunt's interrupt, this, shield bash and vanquish you should never let your opponent cast.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>D5: Enhance Vanquish: This is quite weak for being on the 5th tier. It also works on an ability that is very weak to start with due to power costs and recast. Vanquish was much more powerful as a stun, however it was made a stifle, and did not have power cost reduced at all. As a result this CA costs a tremendous </FONT><FONT color=#cc0033>amount of power for highly inefficient damage, and a stifle that we can nearly mimic with our interrupts on spell casters. This ability should go.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>D6 (ULTIMATE): Gut Roar: I like this ability. I don't like the name. This fits much more with an Overpowering theme as well, as you are completely shutting down your opponent's offense. Depending on the cast/reuse of this ability, it will be a very potent one. Reuse time should remain below the 5 minute mark (I'd almost say 30-90 seconds), and  charges should be between 1 and 5, depending on recast. I see this ability as a way to answer fights with anticipated attacks, such as Dispatch/Debilitate off of brigand mobs. Another answer would be to make this passive and have it recharge like Buckler Reversal. There is also the possibility that "counter" may imply some kind of damage return, more info is needed.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>Overall Comments on Debilitation:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>I really feel "Overpowering" would be more appropriate as a name. Vanquish and Persistent Battering are very weak. Others are workable, or quite nice. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>Suggested possible fill-ins:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>Enhance Frenzied Blows: Increases accuracy of each hit by 20% per point, up to 5 points. (Berserkers have no guaranteed to-hit attacks, this would give them a </FONT><FONT color=#cc0033>long recast but high burst hit to help against orange con or high evasion opponents.) I'd replace Vanquish with this.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>Enhance Stampede: Gives a 20% chance per point to add a stun/knockdown to Stampede of 1.0s, up to 5 points. Would belong early in the tiers.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>Enhance Wild Swing: Increases crit chance with Wild Swing by 10-20% per point, up to 5 points. We're swinging wildly right? Why not add some dice roll to this. Would belong early in the tiers.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>New Ability (Charge): Could be added to Agonizing Press, or replace the stun part. The Berserker rapidly charges the target, stunning them temporarily. I don't have high hopes for this, but at least on PVP servers, Berserkers need a charge, or a snare.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Perseverance Tree:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>P1: Enhance Mayhem: This is excellent, and will be something I drop 5 points in post-haste if Mayhem is still useful. The only problem is that the mit buffs </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>aren't as effective in EOF, so hopefully Mayhem will continue to be worth using.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>P2: Enhance Combative Rage: This is pretty weak, but because it is a group buff it can be understood. The only problem is that this ability isn't going to </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>convince anyone to put 5 points into it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>P3: Enhance Blood Rage: This is absolutely terrible. I am not sure if improving Persistent Battering, this, or the following ability that are our worst </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>"normal" options. Because this ability has to be -obsessively- recast to maintain there are many berserkers that don't even bother. Why this hasn't been made </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>a permanent buff yet is beyond me. I can't even imagine a way to improve this skill, suggested it be removed, especially since it is preceded by a very poor </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>ability from Debilitation, and leads to a very weak ability in Bulking.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>P4a: Enhance Suppressed Rage: This is again one of the weakest options we have. Save yourself 8% haste and dps, but with diminishing returns it is difficult </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>to say how useful that will be. For many berserkers this is already an unused skill, as we can reach the (old) defense cap alone. Don't have many ideas on how </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>to fix this ability either.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>P4b: Enhance Unyielding Will: This is really bad. If anything this ability should've been given to Guardians for minor point costs, not given to Berserkers </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>who already have a death ward. Five points and a requirement of Berserk (when Berserk is being changed) is pretty painful. As this ability leads to two fairly </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>good abilities, it becomes a bitter pill to swallow to progress. I raid tank and I use Unyielding Will around 10 times a month, if that. Spending 10% of my </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>EOF points on an ability that sees less use than Call of Qeynos is pretty poor.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>P5: Enhance Vision of Madness: This is good. But really late in the tier. Consider boosting it to be 120 seconds per point so it is 10 minutes at 5, or moving </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>it as is up the tier. No complaints on this ability.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>P6: Perseverance: Wow. I don't think anyone would take this. This ability not only has the exact same name as our WIS ultimate from the warrior tree, and </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>shares the same uselessness. The effect would need to be multiplied by almost 10 to be worth getting for a group or raid setting. If you're going in danger of </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>dying while solo you call for help and simply run/walk away, and get tremendously more regen than this ability offers. This needs a lot of work.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ccff00>Overall comments on Perseverance:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>This tree starts off very well with boosting Mayhem, however it goes downhill significantly from there and ends with one of the worst ultimates of any EOF </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>class tree. Many of the abilities chosen were the wrong ones to improve, however the abilities that fit within a "perseverence" system are very few, so this </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>is understandable. It may be worth removing/overhauling this tree in exchange for something else because of the lack of abilities and the feeling of being </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>forced. I've tried to come up with some great and interesting fill-ins/replacements below.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Suggested fill-ins and exchanges:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Persistence: 20% chance per point to (instantly?) recast Outrage or Berate at no power cost when resisted, and consume the taunt's timer. Because when you </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>have m1 and m2 taunts and get your taunts resisted 6 times in a row, something is wrong. This may belong deep in a tier as it is pretty powerful.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Enhance Intercede: (5 points per rank, 1 rank) (Replace Unyielding Will.) Turns intercede into a cast buff on target raid or group friend. Now works like </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>Buckler Reversal and intercedes one attack every 30 seconds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Enhance Guarded Vehemence: Gives a 5% per point to perform "Attack of Oppurtunity" on an opponent that attacks the ally you have buffed with Guarded </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>Vehemence. Attack of Oppurtunity does 200-300 damage, and increases threat by 100-200.</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ccff00>-OR-</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ccff00>Enhance Guarded Vehemence: Gives a 20% chance per point to perform "Attack of Oppurtunity" on your target if your target attacks the ally you have buffed with</FONT> <FONT color=#ccff00>Guarded Vehemence. Same damage/threat a above. (I think this one, being single target, would fit guardians best though.)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Final suggestion would be to move Weapon Aegis to this tree, and have Weapon shield increase parry chance by 3-5% per point for duration, so that when weapon </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>shield is expended it would cause the parry chance to drop, but while up you would parry significantly more, but when hit you would counter-attack up to three </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>times then lose the buff.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>As for a new ultimate, a better Perseverance would be a reduced chance to be effected by stuns/knockdowns/and other crowd control effects (maybe 20-25%) for 5 p</FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>oints would be nice. Or an activated immunity to crowd-control on a timer would be fitting. Berserkers are one of the only fighters with no way to escape CC, </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>this would be very fitting. Another option would be that if a Berserker is berserk and struck with a CC, they lose the berserk effect and evade a crowd </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>control ability.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>Bulking Tree (Sounds like we're on steroids doesn't it?):</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>B1: Enhance Engulfing Rage: Focus Anger is almost always weaker, and always overwritten by our group berserk, improving this ability is of very little </FONT><FONT color=#66ccff>interest. A better option would be to offer this later in our trees at 5 points (maybe even the ultimate) and allow this to stack with our group berserk. This </FONT><FONT color=#66ccff>is an overall weak ability.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>B2: Enhance War Cry: This is a good ability. The costs may be a bit high, but that is balanced by it being early in the tier. Definitely something I would </FONT><FONT color=#66ccff>chase after for my personal group.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>B3: Enhance Weapon Aegis: This is a very very weak upgrade. I think that my earlier suggestion on what to do with this ability would be far better. Weapon </FONT><FONT color=#66ccff>Aegis isn't exactly a "Bulking" ability, it is more stylistic and tenacious.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>B4: Enhance Juggernaut: A very good abilty, and something that has been very necessary to make this ability more useful. Juggernaut risks being overpowered in </FONT><FONT color=#66ccff>a DPS role, but is suicide in a tanking role. This is another ability I'd likely go after.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>B5: Berserk (On Command): This is very, very weak. At 5 points we can activate what should always be active on a tanking berserker, at a much weaker effect. </FONT><FONT color=#66ccff>See B1 where I suggest allowing berserk stacking instead.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>Overall Comments on Bulking:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>There are a few abilities that aren't sensible, and that may not have been passed by berserkers before appearing here (why buff both berserks for example?) </FONT><FONT color=#66ccff>However the tree is very solid otherwise. Weapon Aegis is very much out of place, but otherwise a decently solid tree, excluding the ultimate. Because it is </FONT><FONT color=#66ccff>solid I only have a few suggested exchanges/fill-ins.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>Suggested Exchanges/Fill-ins:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>Enhance Roar: Increase the STR amount given by Roar by 3% per point, up to 5 points. I would suggest this be the new opener.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>Enhance Taunting Defense: Increase trigger chance by 1(maybe 2)% per point, up to 5 points.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>Berserk Stacking: 5 points. (Either in the last tier, or the ultimate) Allows the effect of Engulfing Rage and War Cry to stack.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>Alternate Ultimate: Fanning the Flames: 5 points. 30s duration. 60s-90s recast. Every time the berserker triggers a berserk effect they gain one "flame" </FONT><FONT color=#66ccff>counter. When the berserker reaches 25 flame counters, or when the duration of Fanning the Flames expires, the Berserker does 50-100 heat damage to all nearby </FONT><FONT color=#66ccff>enemies (~1875 aoe damage if you can zerk 25 times on average.) This would be a cool ability, and help give the Berserker more flavor.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#00cc66>Cyclone Tree:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>C1: Enhance Bloodbath: This is quite good. Bloodbath is a staple berserker skill, and boosting the damage on it is very nice. Two thumbs up on an excellent </FONT><FONT color=#00cc66>opener.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>C2: Enhance Wall of Ferocity: Increases trigger chance, which is an interesting proposition. As it stands now WoF is an -excellent- AOE hate gain tool, due to </FONT><FONT color=#00cc66>the snare spam. This enhances that. In addition to the trigger chance though it would be nice to see the self-snare dropped and removed entirely at maximum </FONT><FONT color=#00cc66>point expenditure. This would make it a competitive skill.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>C3a: Enhance Stunning Howl: Like Bloodbath's boost this is quite nice. No complaints.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>C3b: Enhance Berserker Onslaught: I personally would rather see this made into a circular PBAOE than increase damage, it already can crit for over 3000 on a </FONT><FONT color=#00cc66>well debuffed mob. However the cone shape makes it very difficult to use, especially if the server is lagging slightly and you can manage to miss all but one </FONT><FONT color=#00cc66>mob.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>C4: Enhance Destruction: Excellent drop on recast timers on an excellent AoE DPS/hate tool.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>C5: Enhance Open Wounds: Excellent drop on recast timers on our most powerful class defining skill. Two thumbs up for sure.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>C6: Ultimate: Cyclones: Adding range to our AOEs isn't really a good thing. If we're tanking, we have the mobs locked onto us. If not, we can stand where the </FONT><FONT color=#00cc66>tank is and still hit them. This is a very weak ability, and should either be removed, or moved into Wall of Ferocity's place.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>Overall Comments on Cyclones:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>This tree has fairly no-brainer, straightforward improvements to the AOE aspect of Berserkers. However it is a little awkward and bland since it only adds DPS </FONT><FONT color=#00cc66>or reduces recasts for the most part, it could use a little more flavor. Because the tree is fairly solid I will only make a few suggestions.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>Suggested Alternates and fill-ins:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>Enhanced Vanquish: (Move this from Debilitation and change it.) The berserker gains a 20% per point chance that Vanquish will cleave it's original target and </FONT><FONT color=#00cc66>strike an additional nearby target for the same damage. This could also be done with Wild Swing instead of the crit proposed earier.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>New Ability: Grand Slam: 5 points. Must be performed on an encounter of 2 or more opponents. The Berserker grabs two of his opponents and slams them together </FONT><FONT color=#00cc66>for high damage and a long duration stun.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>-OR the one which I'd prefer...-</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>New Ability: Great Cyclone: 5 points. The berserker grabs a target opponent and spins them around, striking each nearby enemy for 200-300 damage. The opponent </FONT><FONT color=#00cc66>that was used to strike his allies takes 200-300 damage times the number of allies struck.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Okay everyone. Have at it. Let's see your ideas and feedback on the new Berserker achievements.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[Mordicus]

As always a very helpful post there Dim. Keep it comin with the feedback and ideas, with Khalad gone youre all we got !! <span>:smileytongue:</span>

[Conjourer]

<P>Currently writing an in depth post for this thread, bare with me as I accumulate all my data...</P> <P> </P> <P>Syrius Silverblade</P> <P>70/50 Berserker</P> <P>Venekor</P><p>Message Edited by Conjourer on <span class=date_text>11-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:07 AM</span>

[Bremer]

Yesterday they made several improvements to Zerker (and other Fighter) AAs, most parts look a lot better, but many enhancements are still not where they should be.<div></div>

[Conjourer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dimglow wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Foreword:Hey everyone. Some of you may recognize me as "that teal text guy" or "that guy who did the FAQ." Now that we've had a chance to see what's coming, and before those things are set in stone, I'd like to try to open up a thread regarding feedback on the Berserker Subclass Achievements. So this thread is for constructive criticism and explained opinions of how you feel about the options coming to us in EoF.  This thread may end up long, but bear with us. If you agree or disagree with what is said here, please voice your opinion. Let's try to do the best for our class that we can, and let's try to keep this civil and centralized, so that devs can quickly read it if they happen onto the board. Now with the officialness aside, let's get this started.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Having glanced at various other trees, doing a bit of math, and also comparing the various paths available, I'm going to give my <STRONG><U>opinion</U></STRONG> on the utility, and incentives of the various trees, as well as offer suggestions and alternatives to what we're being offered already.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Having chatted with Syrius (Conjourer) about this quite a bit, I have to say that I am very dissapointed in some of what is coming, however I am hopeful. I respect the EQ2 devs a lot, and I realize that they take high pride in their work. Having worked out the Warrior trees, and having been very satisfied with their work to offer fairly equal and highly differentiated trees, I am now going to do my part to try to offer constructive criticism to improve the Berserker EOF trees to the same quality level, and also hopefully rally my Berserk Brethren behind some of these comments and changes so that when EOF goes live we can all be excited and confused about which tree to take. Not dissapointed, and set in stone on a cookie-cutter max utility build. That being said, here goes:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00><STRONG>Thanks for the recognition Kemt, I had been very anxious to get this going, and was glad when the NDA was lifted so we could start this discussion. Your definitive work on the prior Achievements made you my first stop to talk with about these new Achievements.</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>As it stands right now the trees don't offer incentive to spend points in them over the KOS trees for new characters, and also they don't offer equally compelling options within each tree. Top this off with ultimates that are turn-offs instead of incentivizing turn-ons to go down trees and you've got weak dissapointing trees.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>I believe this to be a bug, but testing last night revealed that you can not place points into the berserker subclass achievements until you have 50 points spent in the Warrior Achievement tree. A dev stated this was not as intended but as it stands now, that is how it is. I disagree however that these don't have incentive to spend points prior to the KoS tree being filled out as I see oportunity in some of the early starter positions being used above say a stat boost from the starting positions of the KoS tree. For example I would take an increase to Violent Pledge or Mayhem over say 4 points in str or something, if I were just starting out as a berserker. But these are all situational choices, though I see oportunity in the new tree over the old tree even though I would say the KoS warrior achievements are head and shoulders above these new choices when you have enough points to fill one of the lines out...possibly a respecing after you bank a few points, but taking advantage of a more instant improvement in the begining.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Furthermore I find it odd that the characteristics that define a berserker are: Debilitation, Perseverance, Bulking and Cyclones. I can agree somewhat with everything but Debilitation. Our class isn't defined in any way by weakening our opponents, we are berserkers, we crush them under our heel as they stand, not wear them </FONT><FONT color=#00cc99>down bit by bit. So I suggest that Debilitation should instead be changed to an "Overpowering" theme. Instead of enhancing our debuffs, it should be where we can enhance our ability to overpower a single target. This can still include debuffs, but should focus on utility, damage, or meaningful shutdown of the </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>enemy.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>I agree on your take of the oddity of the names for the lines...Debilitation sounds very brigand to me...but we will work with what we have I guess, I like the Overpowering idea though.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Comments on specific abilities and trees:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>Debilitation Tree</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>D1: Enhance Violent Pledge: This is actually a pretty good one. +15% threat on this at M1 is actually almost 100 threat every 10 seconds. This would fit with an overpowering theme by making the enemy perceive us as more dangerous than we are.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Lets not forget that all of our CA's took a beating with this expansion, so M1 with + 15% may not =100 threat but the idea is the same, and I agree this is a good starter for any line</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>D2: Enhance Persistent Battering: Among the worst on the tree. We're talking 5 points for debuffing something like 2 additional combat skills on our opponent. (Suggestions to improve would be to add a short term daze effect to it, or to add a snare effect to this ability.) This would fit overpowering as we've now captured our enemy and left a lingering crippling wound on them.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>I use Persistent Battering alot...its the first CA on my main hotbar, and any improve to it would be supported by me, but I have to agree that 5 points to increase it this min amount would be hard to stomach. Suggest increasing the debilitation amount per point spent, or as suggested add a snare or daze effect. Even reduce recast would be better than what it is now.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>D3: Enhance Agonizing Press: Not a bad option at all. Would easily fit "Overpowering" as we've not pressed our enemy to the ground and kept them there longer.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Great one here, nothing but a thumbs up from me...increasing the knockdown time gives alot of options.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>D4a: Enhance Disfigure: At 5% less attack speed on our opponent this is a pretty sweet deal for 5 points. No complaints here. Could fit either debilitation as well as Overpowering.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Another winner on this one...the only thing I dislike about it is that Attack Speed is one of the most debuffed skills by other classess, but that isn't really an issue for this. Great idea for our line.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>D4b: Enhance Ruthless Strike: By increasing our recast this allows us to better interrupt our opponents and shut down castes. No complains, and in fact I kinda like this ability, between our taunt's interrupt, this, shield bash and vanquish you should never let your opponent cast.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Agreed</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>D5: Enhance Vanquish: This is quite weak for being on the 5th tier. It also works on an ability that is very weak to start with due to power costs and recast. Vanquish was much more powerful as a stun, however it was made a stifle, and did not have power cost reduced at all. As a result this CA costs a tremendous </FONT><FONT color=#cc0033>amount of power for highly inefficient damage, and a stifle that we can nearly mimic with our interrupts on spell casters. This ability should go.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Lots of problems with Vanquish line...power cost is too high, and the CA took a beating when they changed it from Stun to Stiffle. Recast is rather long also...that said I like the damage it does, to the point that I took it to M1 (I saw it as a great finishing move for pvp, or a good stifle option against casters, but the recast makes its use somewhat minimal really), although now M1 isn't really much better then Adept 1...*sighs*...something better should be done for this being that it is on the 5th Teir of the Achievement Tree. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>D6 (ULTIMATE): Gut Roar: I like this ability. I don't like the name. This fits much more with an Overpowering theme as well, as you are completely shutting down your opponent's offense. Depending on the cast/reuse of this ability, it will be a very potent one. Reuse time should remain below the 5 minute mark (I'd almost say 30-90 seconds), and  charges should be between 1 and 5, depending on recast. I see this ability as a way to answer fights with anticipated attacks, such as Dispatch/Debilitate off of brigand mobs. Another answer would be to make this passive and have it recharge like Buckler Reversal. There is also the possibility that "counter" may imply some kind of damage return, more info is needed.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>This Ultimate is currently broken...reads 0% to counter a harmfull cast...0% isn't ver good I would think...but that said, this ultimate shines as the one that would be head and shoulders above the reast of the ultimates on this tree, when it is functioning as intended...I most likely see this as the only choice. More on this in later trees ultimate critiques.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>Overall Comments on Debilitation:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>I really feel "Overpowering" would be more appropriate as a name. Vanquish and Persistent Battering are very weak. Others are workable, or quite nice. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>Suggested possible fill-ins:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>Enhance Frenzied Blows: Increases accuracy of each hit by 20% per point, up to 5 points. (Berserkers have no guaranteed to-hit attacks, this would give them a </FONT><FONT color=#cc0033>long recast but high burst hit to help against orange con or high evasion opponents.) I'd replace Vanquish with this.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Any enhancement to Frenzied Blows would be a welcome addition to the berserker arsenal..would really like to endorse this as a replacement to Vanquish, Frenzied Blows would be an incredible addition to this tree...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>Enhance Stampede: Gives a 20% chance per point to add a stun/knockdown to Stampede of 1.0s, up to 5 points. Would belong early in the tiers.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>Enhance Wild Swing: Increases crit chance with Wild Swing by 10-20% per point, up to 5 points. We're swinging wildly right? Why not add some dice roll to this. Would belong early in the tiers.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033>New Ability (Charge): Could be added to Agonizing Press, or replace the stun part. The Berserker rapidly charges the target, stunning them temporarily. I don't have high hopes for this, but at least on PVP servers, Berserkers need a charge, or a snare.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#cc0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>All great suggestions here...</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Perseverance Tree:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>P1: Enhance Mayhem: This is excellent, and will be something I drop 5 points in post-haste if Mayhem is still useful. The only problem is that the mit buffs </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>aren't as effective in EOF, so hopefully Mayhem will continue to be worth using.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>This is one of the only Defensive positions on any of the Trees, and it is a great idea!!! Mayhem did take a beating as a CA with this expansion, at M1 it has its mit dropped to 700ish crush, and 600ish slash and pierce, and with Diminishing returns I would almost be a proponent of taking Mayhem to a static buff adding a certain amount of mit to the berserker constantly... That being said, its still holds great potential if you reduce the casting time on it enough to make it very much a utility spell. Before the mit changes this was a temp buff that was used as frequently as it could be cast...mit to entire group with zero draw back...always welcome.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>P2: Enhance Combative Rage: This is pretty weak, but because it is a group buff it can be understood. The only problem is that this ability isn't going to </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>convince anyone to put 5 points into it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>I agree, this is very weak...group health regen isn't anything that I would call an extordinary gift to our class, at least not at current rates..If I placed points here it would only be to move to the next position, if given no other choices.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>P3: Enhance Blood Rage: This is absolutely terrible. I am not sure if improving Persistent Battering, this, or the following ability that are our worst </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>"normal" options. Because this ability has to be -obsessively- recast to maintain there are many berserkers that don't even bother. Why this hasn't been made </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>a permanent buff yet is beyond me. I can't even imagine a way to improve this skill, suggested it be removed, especially since it is preceded by a very poor </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>ability from Debilitation, and leads to a very weak ability in Bulking. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>This one is definately in the running for the worst of our choices on any of these Trees. Get rid of the need to recast every 15 mins already....why even have that restriction? If you can recast it every 15 mins anyway...with no restrictions on recasting it...the only point of it being a 15 min buff is that some would forget to recast it and lose its use...I know I have gone for hours with it off, because I forgot it was even there...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>P4a: Enhance Suppressed Rage: This is again one of the weakest options we have. Save yourself 8% haste and dps, but with diminishing returns it is difficult </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>to say how useful that will be. For many berserkers this is already an unused skill, as we can reach the (old) defense cap alone. Don't have many ideas on how </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>to fix this ability either.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>I have to disagree on this one. With the increases that EoF gives to Avoidance as an important tanking option, this will get alot more use, at least if you are below the Defense Cap. Did some testing with Suppressed Rage and was pleased with how well overall avoidance was a benefit to tanking now. Recomendations would be to increase the Defense boost it gives as well as lowering the cost to the user in terms of dps and haste. Possibly increase recast as well!!! why not go all the way with this...Berserkers don't have alot of Defensive Buffs as is, so increasing the ones we have is a must!!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>P4b: Enhance Unyielding Will: This is really bad. If anything this ability should've been given to Guardians for minor point costs, not given to Berserkers </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>who already have a death ward. Five points and a requirement of Berserk (when Berserk is being changed) is pretty painful. As this ability leads to two fairly </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>good abilities, it becomes a bitter pill to swallow to progress. I raid tank and I use Unyielding Will around 10 times a month, if that. Spending 10% of my </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>EOF points on an ability that sees less use than Call of Qeynos is pretty poor.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>The only use this one has at all is for very rare occasions when spike damage from an encounter kills you, and you need a life saver...we already have one (VoM), but I see another life saver as a bonus, not a drawback. Adding the need to be berserk was a currious thing to me, and the only reasoning I can find for it is to tie it into the ultimate of this line, which is god awful for reasons I will discuss when I get there below...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>P5: Enhance Vision of Madness: This is good. But really late in the tier. Consider boosting it to be 120 seconds per point so it is 10 minutes at 5, or moving </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>it as is up the tier. No complaints on this ability.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>VoM is a godsend...but the reuse on it at 30 mins is a bit too much...so this is a good option for an achievement choice, but I would move it to where Unyielding Will is on the tree or make it 120 seconds at the min per point to make it worth the position it has on the tree...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>P6: Perseverance: Wow. I don't think anyone would take this. This ability not only has the exact same name as our WIS ultimate from the warrior tree, and </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>shares the same uselessness. The effect would need to be multiplied by almost 10 to be worth getting for a group or raid setting. If you're going in danger of </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>dying while solo you call for help and simply run/walk away, and get tremendously more regen than this ability offers. This needs a lot of work.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Yes...this is...absolutely useless to anyone. Needs major work to make it even a viable option...consider possibly changing it to a self ward with a reuse of 30 mins absorbing all damage for 10 seconds or HoT that increases health equal to the amount of damage taken over 10 seconds...with a reuse of 30 mins...would be like the berserker takes damage down to 25% health and then this goes off turning all damage taken into health..would make this incredibly usefull and an ultimate deserving of major attention...Would even be good if you turned it into a jugernaught type abilty where in we get to 25% health and then go crazy doing additional crits or something...but as is its horrible.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ccff00>Overall comments on Perseverance:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>This tree starts off very well with boosting Mayhem, however it goes downhill significantly from there and ends with one of the worst ultimates of any EOF </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>class tree. Many of the abilities chosen were the wrong ones to improve, however the abilities that fit within a "perseverence" system are very few, so this </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>is understandable. It may be worth removing/overhauling this tree in exchange for something else because of the lack of abilities and the feeling of being </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>forced. I've tried to come up with some great and interesting fill-ins/replacements below.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Suggested fill-ins and exchanges:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Persistence: 20% chance per point to (instantly?) recast Outrage or Berate at no power cost when resisted, and consume the taunt's timer. Because when you </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>have m1 and m2 taunts and get your taunts resisted 6 times in a row, something is wrong. This may belong deep in a tier as it is pretty powerful.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Incredible idea!!! Our master 1 taunts get resisted far too often to make any sense out of...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Enhance Intercede: (5 points per rank, 1 rank) (Replace Unyielding Will.) Turns intercede into a cast buff on target raid or group friend. Now works like </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>Buckler Reversal and intercedes one attack every 30 seconds.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Another great idea!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Enhance Guarded Vehemence: Gives a 5% per point to perform "Attack of Oppurtunity" on an opponent that attacks the ally you have buffed with Guarded </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>Vehemence. Attack of Oppurtunity does 200-300 damage, and increases threat by 100-200.</FONT></DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ccff00>-OR-</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#ccff00>Enhance Guarded Vehemence: Gives a 20% chance per point to perform "Attack of Oppurtunity" on your target if your target attacks the ally you have buffed with</FONT> <FONT color=#ccff00>Guarded Vehemence. Same damage/threat a above. (I think this one, being single target, would fit guardians best though.)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>Final suggestion would be to move Weapon Aegis to this tree, and have Weapon shield increase parry chance by 3-5% per point for duration, so that when weapon </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>shield is expended it would cause the parry chance to drop, but while up you would parry significantly more, but when hit you would counter-attack up to three </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>times then lose the buff.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00>As for a new ultimate, a better Perseverance would be a reduced chance to be effected by stuns/knockdowns/and other crowd control effects (maybe 20-25%) for 5 p</FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>oints would be nice. Or an activated immunity to crowd-control on a timer would be fitting. Berserkers are one of the only fighters with no way to escape CC, </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>this would be very fitting. Another option would be that if a Berserker is berserk and struck with a CC, they lose the berserk effect and evade a crowd </FONT><FONT color=#ccff00>control ability.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ccff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>Bulking Tree (Sounds like we're on steroids doesn't it?):</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>B1: Enhance Engulfing Rage: Focus Anger is almost always weaker, and always overwritten by our group berserk, improving this ability is of very little </FONT><FONT color=#66ccff>interest. A better option would be to offer this later in our trees at 5 points (maybe even the ultimate) and allow this to stack with our group berserk. This </FONT><FONT color=#66ccff>is an overall weak ability.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Now we are getting into the problems that are showing up with EoF, concerning Berserkers, in general. The proc rate of Berserk from both Engulfing Rage and War Cry was sugnificantly nerfed to the point of being non existant...if I am to believe we have to take these Achievements in order to return the utilty of our class defining ability, then I don't see how these are advancements to our class, I would see this as a major setback...The point of Achievement skills is to increase the character, not set it back lightyears...I hope this gets addressed imediately.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>The Self buff and the Group buff should stack....period.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>B2: Enhance War Cry: This is a good ability. The costs may be a bit high, but that is balanced by it being early in the tier. Definitely something I would </FONT><FONT color=#66ccff>chase after for my personal group.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Again, because the number of procs was reduced to this buff, its utilty is nill now. Unless they fix the proc rate of the buff, this is a pointless Achievement...unless the intention is to make berserkers take this achievement to regain the same utility they have always had...then its a slap in the face. This is our main group utility as a DPS class...taking the proc rate away, or reducing it to almost nothing is just outrageous...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>B3: Enhance Weapon Aegis: This is a very very weak upgrade. I think that my earlier suggestion on what to do with this ability would be far better. Weapon </FONT><FONT color=#66ccff>Aegis isn't exactly a "Bulking" ability, it is more stylistic and tenacious.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>No comment other then agree, its a weaker position, but Weapons Aegis is one hell of a great CA...I guess thanks is in order that it wasn't nerfed along with WarCry and Engulfing Rage...give this enhancement an increase in damage per proc, to make it more worth while for the position in on the tree.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>B4: Enhance Juggernaut: A very good abilty, and something that has been very necessary to make this ability more useful. Juggernaut risks being overpowered in </FONT><FONT color=#66ccff>a DPS role, but is suicide in a tanking role. This is another ability I'd likely go after.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>The idea is absolutely worthy of the new Tree...but the debilitation of Juggernaut is still currious and questionable, even with all the points placed in this Enhancement, juggernaut is sitll not a viable option when tanking, especially now that mit and resists have recieved the reduction they have...make it cost no mit or resist at 5 points and we are getting somewhere...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>B5: Berserk (On Command): This is very, very weak. At 5 points we can activate what should always be active on a tanking berserker, at a much weaker effect. </FONT><FONT color=#66ccff>See B1 where I suggest allowing berserk stacking instead.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Ok, This is the question right here...is it the intention of EoF to reduce the proc on our self and group buff so that we never see, or rarely see Berserk from them? If so then this is a viable choice for an ultimate on the tree...I hate the idea but it makes sense if in fact the nerf or reduction in berserk procs is as intended. The % haste and DPS on this ultimate is poor at best, not even matching an apprentice IV version of our buffs. This ultimate Berserk (on comand) overwrites the the buff proc Berserk, which reduces our dps further if used when we are already in a berserk state...and is a very poor substitution if we are not in a berserk state. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>Suggestions for this to even be worth placing points into it. This is our class defining ability. Increase the % dps and haste to be in line with our T7 Proc, or make it stack with the Berserk Proc. Stacking the 17% dps and haste would not be overpowering as it only lasts for 10 seconds...Considering the cap to haste and dps has been raised 100% to 200 implies that 27% haste and dps are not equal to what they were before EoF and therefore cries for the stacking....About the only utility I can see from this ultimate would be as a safety mechanism when using unyielding will, to ensure you are berserk when it goes off so you don't die...and on pulls to ensure you start the fight out with the haste/dps mods up...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>Overall Comments on Bulking:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>There are a few abilities that aren't sensible, and that may not have been passed by berserkers before appearing here (why buff both berserks for example?) </FONT><FONT color=#66ccff>However the tree is very solid otherwise. Weapon Aegis is very much out of place, but otherwise a decently solid tree, excluding the ultimate. Because it is </FONT><FONT color=#66ccff>solid I only have a few suggested exchanges/fill-ins.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>Suggested Exchanges/Fill-ins:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>Enhance Roar: Increase the STR amount given by Roar by 3% per point, up to 5 points. I would suggest this be the new opener.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>Enhance Taunting Defense: Increase trigger chance by 1(maybe 2)% per point, up to 5 points.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>Berserk Stacking: 5 points. (Either in the last tier, or the ultimate) Allows the effect of Engulfing Rage and War Cry to stack.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ccff>Alternate Ultimate: Fanning the Flames: 5 points. 30s duration. 60s-90s recast. Every time the berserker triggers a berserk effect they gain one "flame" </FONT><FONT color=#66ccff>counter. When the berserker reaches 25 flame counters, or when the duration of Fanning the Flames expires, the Berserker does 50-100 heat damage to all nearby </FONT><FONT color=#66ccff>enemies (~1875 aoe damage if you can zerk 25 times on average.) This would be a cool ability, and help give the Berserker more flavor.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR><FONT color=#00cc66>Cyclone Tree:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>C1: Enhance Bloodbath: This is quite good. Bloodbath is a staple berserker skill, and boosting the damage on it is very nice. Two thumbs up on an excellent </FONT><FONT color=#00cc66>opener.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>C2: Enhance Wall of Ferocity: Increases trigger chance, which is an interesting proposition. As it stands now WoF is an -excellent- AOE hate gain tool, due to </FONT><FONT color=#00cc66>the snare spam. This enhances that. In addition to the trigger chance though it would be nice to see the self-snare dropped and removed entirely at maximum </FONT><FONT color=#00cc66>point expenditure. This would make it a competitive skill.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>C3a: Enhance Stunning Howl: Like Bloodbath's boost this is quite nice. No complaints.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>C3b: Enhance Berserker Onslaught: I personally would rather see this made into a circular PBAOE than increase damage, it already can crit for over 3000 on a </FONT><FONT color=#00cc66>well debuffed mob. However the cone shape makes it very difficult to use, especially if the server is lagging slightly and you can manage to miss all but one </FONT><FONT color=#00cc66>mob.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>C4: Enhance Destruction: Excellent drop on recast timers on an excellent AoE DPS/hate tool.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>C5: Enhance Open Wounds: Excellent drop on recast timers on our most powerful class defining skill. Two thumbs up for sure.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>C6: Ultimate: Cyclones: Adding range to our AOEs isn't really a good thing. If we're tanking, we have the mobs locked onto us. If not, we can stand where the </FONT><FONT color=#00cc66>tank is and still hit them. This is a very weak ability, and should either be removed, or moved into Wall of Ferocity's place.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffcc00>I love all of these except for the ultimate...its anti climatic..who needs an ehnacement to the raidus of any AoE's? This is by far one of the strongest lines in the Tree...The ultimate however is horrible. Hopefully they will do something much more creative with this.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>Overall Comments on Cyclones:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>This tree has fairly no-brainer, straightforward improvements to the AOE aspect of Berserkers. However it is a little awkward and bland since it only adds DPS </FONT><FONT color=#00cc66>or reduces recasts for the most part, it could use a little more flavor. Because the tree is fairly solid I will only make a few suggestions.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>Suggested Alternates and fill-ins:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>Enhanced Vanquish: (Move this from Debilitation and change it.) The berserker gains a 20% per point chance that Vanquish will cleave it's original target and </FONT><FONT color=#00cc66>strike an additional nearby target for the same damage. This could also be done with Wild Swing instead of the crit proposed earier.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>New Ability: Grand Slam: 5 points. Must be performed on an encounter of 2 or more opponents. The Berserker grabs two of his opponents and slams them together </FONT><FONT color=#00cc66>for high damage and a long duration stun.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>-OR the one which I'd prefer...-</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc66>New Ability: Great Cyclone: 5 points. The berserker grabs a target opponent and spins them around, striking each nearby enemy for 200-300 damage. The opponent </FONT><FONT color=#00cc66>that was used to strike his allies takes 200-300 damage times the number of allies struck.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>Okay everyone. Have at it. Let's see your ideas and feedback on the new Berserker achievements.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ffcc00>IN conclussion, I think there is great potential in these Alternate Achievements...and I am hopefull they will fix what they have broken and we will see some awsome new enhancements to our abilities...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Syrius</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>70/50 Berserker</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Venekor</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Conjourer on <SPAN class=date_text>11-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:47 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Conjourer on <span class=date_text>11-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:52 PM</span>

[Conjourer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR>Yesterday they made several improvements to Zerker (and other Fighter) AAs, most parts look a lot better, but many enhancements are still not where they should be.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I will have to go see what they changed so Kemt and I can hash out this thread with the changes, thanks for the heads up!!!</P> <P> </P> <P>Syrius</P>

[PhoenixTears]

<DIV>ive been screwing around with gut roar... it seems broken to me as well.  I cant find any indication in my combat logs that it actualy works. ive tried it in duels.. against mobs.. and even the avatar of growth :p   should probably be looked into or somthing. its also very vague.. what exactly does counter mean?  does it just block, or is it like a reflect spell or somthing?</DIV>

[Nembutal]

Forgive me for sounding like an idiot... BUT...Do I have to spend points in this garbage?  Can I just spend all 100AA's in KoS stuff?  I have some mit, shield use, and parry I would like to finish up on... and some haste and criticals as well....<div></div>

[Conjourer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nembutal wrote:<BR>Forgive me for sounding like an idiot... BUT...<BR><BR>Do I have to spend points in this garbage?  Can I just spend all 100AA's in KoS stuff?  I have some mit, shield use, and parry I would like to finish up on... and some haste and criticals as well....<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No...you have a limit of 50 points in the old KoS warrior achievement tree, after that you can either bank all your points, or put them into the new EoF Zerker Tree...</P> <P>Or just not buy the new expansion...then you won't be gaining more AA's I don't think</P> <P> </P> <P>Syrius</P>

[KFizzle]

<DIV>I am really confused about the EoF AA's in comparison but i am curious, does anything change with our Berserk? I see this like choosing to berserk stuff and see it said that its a less strong berserk, but do our other berserk stuffs still happen? (cause i have enough of a time remembering to throw up that Blood Craze every 10-15 minutes, and i never remember throwing up Heroic Opportunities ... ). I agree though that alot of it looks crappy ... but as for some of the others, i really like the idea of reduced reuse timers on OW/Destruction, more damage on other AOEs and longer range so i will prolly do some of that stuff...as for the rest who knows. <BR><BR>From your descriptions nothing really seemed "OMG I GOTTA HAVE THAT!" like some did from the KoS ones. </DIV>

[Nembutal]

<P>Great... well looking at our EoF AA's I can't see a single one of them that makes me think "yeah I want that... it will be cool"</P> <P>I also see like what 3 that will be of any use what-so-ever when they increase the lvl cap to 80... and that's my MAIN issue is that they want me to exp for what will in the end be 0% gain... I just can't seem to grasp what rocket scientist would come up with an AA tree that consists of stuff that will all be outdated.  It's bad enough I waste money on master I's that will be outdated... I don't need to EXP to boost those master I's with the extra 2 secs shaved off the recycle time as well.</P> <P>I want some FORWARD progression.... these AA's are not FORWARD they are horizontal.... a quick off shoot to the side to make us think we have accomplished something when we in fact will have accomplished nothing.  They have tiny gains and will be outdated with the next expansion unless lvl 70 is in fact the hard cap and we have been lied to (OMG YES THE FROGLOCK QUEST IS IN! YOU JUST HAVEN'T FOUND IT!)</P> <P>If you think about it the fact that most of us WOULD use KoS AA's over EoF aa's and therefore they have limited us to only putting 50 max in each is pretty much a dead give away that this expansion is a flop.</P>

[Trynnus1]

<P>Just so everyone knows - the upcoming combat changes are a 10-15% reduction in <STRONG>all</STRONG> our stats, mit, CA -<STRONG>  everything.</STRONG> </P> <P>This is to accomodate itemization changes in EoF (adding cloak and earing slots and "better gear").</P> <P>Also note:</P> <P>No more soling heroic ^^^ mobs - especially named. I am 70/50 - legendary mainly with fabled weapons. I could not kill the easiest named in SoS that I had no issue with on live. While running back from HoF, a single drake almos got me by the cloud station.</P> <P>The EoF AAs seemed to but us back almost to before the "scaling back" of everyone. (Btw - the AA discussions are all the same - no love for anyone). Whether we like it or not, this is <STRONG>not</STRONG> a solo friendly expansion. Soloer will definitely be fighting solo, non-heroic mobs.</P> <P>The line between Guardian and Zerkers is blurring again as Guardians were given more DPS in EoF.</P> <P> </P>

[Nembutal]

Soling ^^^ has never been easy since the DoF revamp... it was kind of expected the combat changes this time around with the nerf to plate tanks (we had the most to lose in terms of mit) that we would be impacted again.  Probably a good chunk of what you saw was the 24-28% DPS and Haste nerf from bezerk not triggering though... that's a big loss of DPS and when solo it would be at it's most noticable since you have 2 chances to get it up (self buff and group buff) and all the DPS is 100% you... and you only have the HP you start with (no healer) so basically your HP bar is your timer... it's a direct race to see who has thier HP bar run out first... with no bezerk that is like giving the drake a head start.

[PhoenixTears]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nembutal wrote:<BR> <P>Great... well looking at our EoF AA's I can't see a single one of them that makes me think "yeah I want that... it will be cool"</P> <P>I also see like what 3 that will be of any use what-so-ever when they increase the lvl cap to 80... and that's my MAIN issue is that they want me to exp for what will in the end be 0% gain... I just can't seem to grasp what rocket scientist would come up with an AA tree that consists of stuff that will all be outdated.  It's bad enough I waste money on master I's that will be outdated... I don't need to EXP to boost those master I's with the extra 2 secs shaved off the recycle time as well.</P> <P>I want some FORWARD progression.... these AA's are not FORWARD they are horizontal.... a quick off shoot to the side to make us think we have accomplished something when we in fact will have accomplished nothing.  They have tiny gains and will be outdated with the next expansion unless lvl 70 is in fact the hard cap and we have been lied to (OMG YES THE FROGLOCK QUEST IS IN! YOU JUST HAVEN'T FOUND IT!)</P> <P>If you think about it the fact that most of us WOULD use KoS AA's over EoF aa's and therefore they have limited us to only putting 50 max in each is pretty much a dead give away that this expansion is a flop.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>While i agree with you.. the aa's suck and 90% of them are pointless and realy wont even make a difference.  They scale as you lvl. The aas are base on the line of spells not one particular spell in a line.. so if a spell upgrades at lvl 80 ect it will still get the enhancements... however useless they are..<BR>

[Nembutal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PhoenixTears wrote:<BR><BR>While i agree with you.. the aa's suck and 90% of them are pointless and realy wont even make a difference.  They scale as you lvl. The aas are base on the line of spells not one particular spell in a line.. so if a spell upgrades at lvl 80 ect it will still get the enhancements... however useless they are..<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Are you sure?  They are named after spells a lvl 20 will have never heard of... and some of them aren't even availible as lower level versions like Vision of Madness etc.... I have heard no one in beta saying they have tested it on lower level versions and the alterations were there... I have just heard "I am lvl 70 and this is what it does"  I would love to hear someone say definitively "it is for the whole spell line... they are just poorly named AAs... and some are useless at low level" but it hasn't happened yet.</P> <P>If it is for a whole line that will remove like 70% of my issues with the AA's besides the fact the effects are so pathetic that you won't be able to tell an "Cyclone Tree- AE zerker" from a "Bulking Tree - Buffing zerker" without asking them.  PLUS you would have no reason to ask them because it wouldn't matter anyway.  Well I take that back... I'd say "Are you one of those idiots that expanded your AE range?  Because if you are... don't use them in this dungeon you will get us all killed"</P> <P>----</P> <P>I don't know how many of you have looked up all the other classes AA's  I have looked at Guardian, Fury, Warden, Assassin, Ranger, Warlock, and Wizard.  No one really has anything that makes you go "Wow" however I think out of all of those we got the worst ones.... there is absolutely no skill I look at and say "yeah... at least 5 points into that one... and whatever it takes to get there"  I just stare at it and repeat curse words to myself.</P> <P>My alt (2nd acct) is a Fury... I have already written down what I am going to takeon the fury and I actually had to make a choice on what i had to leave out.... for the zerker MY MAIN... still sitting, staring, and cursing.</P>

[Dimgl]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nembutal wrote: <P>If it is for a whole line that will remove like 70% of my issues with the AA's besides the fact the effects are so pathetic that you won't be able to tell an "Cyclone Tree- AE zerker" from a "Bulking Tree - Buffing zerker" without asking them.  PLUS you would have no reason to ask them because it wouldn't matter anyway.  Well I take that back... I'd say "Are you one of those idiots that expanded your AE range?  Because if you are... don't use them in this dungeon you will get us all killed"</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>The achievements work for all skills in a line from all that I've seen and heard.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>However the other point that you raise is the real problem. The choices aren't compelling, and don't serve to offer significant distinction for the characters who choose them. However that's not all the dev's fault. If they made defining powers that were too strong they'd end up with people being forced to take them. Just like you would hate an AOE-expanded berserker for speccing as he has, getting your group killed you might hate a healer who didn't spec as you want, and wasn't heal specced for example. There has to be a balance between merit and demerit.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>Healers are another story (which I will return to shortly,) but you have to keep in mind balance like that. All of the healers have complained about the fact that they've gotten almost no boosts to healing as options (Just as almost all the fighters are unsatisfied with their tanking options in EOF,) however in their cases as soon as such an option was presented it would become necessary, and difficult encounters would have to be built around improved healing, or tanking, or dpsing etc. Design a system like that and you've got cookie cutter legions and the few stray "[Removed for Content]" who get ostracized. We're no better off under a system like that than if we had no choices or points to spend in the first place, and that is the dilemna, no choice and balance or choice and the danger of being labelled "[Removed for Content]." They have to be very careful to balance abilities so that they retain EQUAL merit, and then make sure it all doesn't become a demerit system where the more you stray from the expected the more [Removed for Content] and undesirable you become.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>As such, achievements need to really achieve 3 things: </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>Provide Flavor: Chocolate ice cream and vanilla ice cream are both still ice cream but they make different people different levels of happy. Difference is always step 1, if we're no different why bother?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>Provide Distinction: What good are different flavors if you can't tell them apart? That Berserker with a buckler? I bet he's double-attack specced. That one with the big two-handed axe? Probably going to whack you pretty hard with those Executioner style abilities. What about EOF distinction? </FONT><FONT color=#00cc99>That Bulking berserker? Uhhh, he regenned a tiny bit more I think? My UI can't even tell it apart with the pixels that small. The Debilitation berserker? He made that mob miss an additional 1% of the time. That isn't satisfactory distinction.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>Provide Incentive: The achievements should be enough of an improvement that players are excited while progressing, and not treating it as an afterthought. This is especially true in a post-level/post-gear progression scenario, which is where many players in EQ2 are currently.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>Right now our achievements fail to fill any of those needs. A good example of lines which offer Flavor and Distinction are the Inquisitor Battlepriest line. The only problem there is the incentive is poor due to the "bonuses" being minimal, and in some cases DPS being penalized, but as of right now that line is one of the most creative and interesting I've seen, a Battle Inquisitor will have the Flavor of having fighter-like aspects, and also will be quite distinctive when he spins around and slams a group of mobs with his hammer.  Big thumbs up on ideas like that, once they hash out the numbers on the abilities you'll see a 3/3 hit on something like that, flavor, distinction and incentive. On the other hand I feel sorry for their mirror, Templars, who are being turned into mages/enchanters almost. Why in the world you would give a healer reactive heals and then give them a half dozen abilities to prevent the enemy from hitting someone is a bit strange, but again another story, excuse me going a bit off topic.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>Now compare the ideals above with a single ability from our trees: Enhance Unyielding Will. To start we should look at the ability itself. What is fun about Unyielding Will? It's a deathward that then gives us 36 seconds to do our best to save everyone else. We already have a Death Ward without a penalty in Vision of Madness, so it isn't our only option, as such Unyielding Will isn't defined as THE death ward for us. Instead it is an option that we can use in a last ditch effort, and as such it is fun because it is fun, different and distinct from VoM. Distinct even from every other death ward in the game, which leads to a flavorful and identifiable ability, you know when your raid MT says "30 seconds and my heart explodes!" that something big is about to happen, if you're DPS you gotta burn burn burn! If you're the OT, now is the time to buckle down! Healers, be ready for the hate swap! Ultimately because of that we have a fun ability in Unyielding Will.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>Now, with that in mind, we can pay 5 points to remove the "fun aspect" of Unyielding Will and make it "another boring death ward." This is backwards progress imho, we end up removing flavor from the warrior class, removing distinction between two of our own abilities, and the incentive is pretty small really, I mean, how many people use Unyielding Will more than ten times a month? This is the kind of achievement we need to fight.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>I kind of rattled on in this post a bit, but I hope it got some ideas across. I think these are the kind of problems the devs are dealing with, that's why they can't offer us any "super-cool" "ultra-desirable" options.</FONT></P>

[atem]

<P>I'm not asking for super cool make me a freakin god ability ....I am asking for some AAs that i can feel semi content with putting an AA point in it. </P> <P>like drop recast time of outrage by like .2secs a rank with 5 ranks</P> <P>increase hate amount of Berate by 2% per rank with 5 ranks</P> <P>IMO one of the end all abilities should be Berserk is always on at a lower DPS/Haste amount maybe 20% </P> <P>or make Insolent gibe reuse timer drop by 5 secs a rank for 5 ranks.</P> <P>or make VoM a grp buff with one use so if someone in grp dies it will bring them back to life .....</P> <P> </P> <P>I just dont want to waste my time grinding out achievement xp and then stare at the tree for a day asking myself [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] do i put this point in to help make a difference somewhere.  From what i have seen so far i would just rather put the new 50 AAs into the KoS tree.</P> <P>this is just my opinion and not sure if a dev will even read this but i pray they do and take consideration and change our AAs.</P>

[Nembutal]

<div></div><div></div>Kemt you didn't "rattle on" you have very good points.. and if it takes explaining them in detail to get someone at SOE to pay attention... by all means DO IT!  I used to be the Troubadour that "Rattled on"... Claire Dangermouse.  I had spreadsheets showing how our buffs and stuff never improved and sometimed went backwards when you upgraded them from Adept 1 to AD3 or master... eventually someone cought on and in DoF they fixed spell scaling.  I am not sure how much I had to do with it... but I made the situation public to the members of my class and in a place SOE could see it.... I did what I considered my "job" was.  Shared the info and tried to get it fixed. I 100% agree with pretty much everything you say... and I'm not a kiss up... if I hated what you had to say I would simply say KEMT YOU SUCK! The concept behind the trees is correct... Debuff, Buff, AE, and standard DPS... excellent choices for types of divisions. The problem is when your debuffs pretty much suck... adding marginal gains to them means they still suck... and if you have 2 zerkers on the raid only one of them should be debuff spec'd If you offer enhancements to stuff we don't use often... we are not interested in it. If a AA causes more harm than good in many situations that should be a "Free" option... like AE radius... why would you spend 5 points to be told "don't use your AE's here your range is too big"  I mean to me I can see someone making the trade off... but I sure wouldn't spend points on it.  Since there is no such thing as a free option it should be purged from the list. I agree that none of the stuff really adds flavor.... or function.  You are still the same old zerker with some sort of marginalized 1% gain somewhere... if you get all 50 points spent you might have an over all 1% gain across the board on something like DPS... but you will still be the same boring zerker. I know what balance is... better than the bulk of most players... and I do in fact realize that the zerker pre-EoF is not exactly lacking.... I love my zerker. However balancing us with nerfs or by giving us no incentive to gain AA's because crappy AA's is our balance is incorrect.  I think we got crappy AA's because our class is so popular. There are AA's that have been handed to other classes which are not game breaking... like safe fall... runspeed... deaggro.. stuff like that. Hell you know what I would spend to get a De-aggro?  Yes a DE-AGGRO... an EVADE of some sort... or a "blame" type ability... something where I can drop hate or transfer it.  I wouldn't want to rank up there with any other aggro transfer person... but when I am not tanking I have a hard time not taking aggro.... I have ZERO tools to help me on that.   I am not spec'd for max DPS.... I thought about it but I saw my aggro issues and decided I would end up botching every raid I attended.  Being a DPS zerker is dangerous... yoru juggernaught sucks 1300 MIT and offensive leaves you 500 MIT shy of defensive also... then you are not in a MT group with MIT buffs... your group buffs your offensive and other players target you to shed thier aggro somewhere... OMG NO!  So next thing I know I have aggro... and I have the mitigation of shaman.  I have nothing to do except run to where the MT was and wait to die with auto attack turned off.  A de-aggro would not make us do more DPS it would allow a DPS spec'd bard to do it SAFER... this is flavor.... it's the DPS flavor. How about an increase to insolent gibe? It's an AE... it doesn't help us mitigate or avoid damage...  but it is something we feel makes us special.  Or add a taunt to another true AE we have instead.  This would be more of a "tanking but not dmg reducing" thing... How about giving us an AE like you had said where you do extra dmg to 1 target based off the number of other targets hit?  That was a cool idea. How about adding some AGI to our STR (roar) group buff?  Maybe a +1 per rank to Slashing, Crushing, Piercing? Maybe a cool pulling tool so we don't have to risk our pet classes and scouts to get a decent pull... How about an ability that was like a canibalize?  You use it once in combat to turn some HP into power on like a power drain mob at a pretty heft size amount to help you hold aggro... OR you can trigger a buff that allows you to cast only taunt spells without power consumption for 1 minute because you are just THAT pisssed off you dug down and found some reserves when you thought you had hit rock bottom. I would love some sort of AA that knocked an epic mob down so that my wisdom club attack (belly smash) was actually of some use... I don't debuff regular mobs and I can't really use it on epics... so what purpose did that club AA serve?  Let us spend our points to USE it when we would really want to. how about a quick cast taunt... that wears off.  Like you use it when you pull or when the other tank dies.. or a mem wipe... it's your initial attention getter and give like +3000 hate... but then does -500 hate per tick for 6 ticks.  Basically a spare "mini-rescue" Maybe add some bonuses to defensive stance (thorns?) and as an extra bonus... a buff that makes us really tall or look like rallos zek or something... you know on a raid it's really nice to know where your tank is at all times... changing into a stupid bear doesn't really help... adding particle effects to yourself when there are 10,000 glowing sparkly things in the air if they have it enabled to see you... or no change if you don't... well sucks.... Bolster is cool but only temporary.  This illusion should be optional via the persona screen options because being an ogre in some dungeons is a big enough hassle as it is... maybe you get the illusion as a extra button for your hot bar when you reach rank 5.<font color="#6666ff"></font><font color="#6666ff">My main complaint about SOE tanks is our inability to function as a team on raids...</font> I would love to be the "MT's companion" spec'd zerker.  Aanything that allowed a tank to help the main tank... basically being a member of a "tanking team" just like you have a team of "DPS guys" is good. I would like a rescue that I could direct at a fellow tank... like I cast a buff on him and the next target he uses a CA on get a 1 time proc of +2000 hate I would like an "interceding vision of madness" where it has a longer duration because it is not cast on myself... basically I cast a 45-60 second buff on the MT... when he takes a fatal blow and he doesn't have a vision of madness style self buff on him...(AKA mine is the last one used) I would then eat the death for him... and then heal him like 4000 HP and give him 25% haste and DPS for 30 seconds as a "you killed my buddy... and now you are going to pay!" kind of reaction. Intercede is a cool spell we rarely get to use why not alter it using AAs?  That is tank-like and worthy of upgrading to usefullness How about our little orange buff that shares our avoidence with another person and gives us some AGI it could be more useful as a "tank-like" thing.... maybe it gives some HP... maybe it adds a dmg shield.. I dunno... something I don't care. Actually a positioning tool would be great for that as well.... your MT hold aggro... and your zerker runs up and does a series of shoulder slams to hold the bad guy in the right location.  That way the preist line of sight never gets screwed up and the MT never has to run around exposing his back.... plus the "aggro dragging" process is so poor you frequently have to swing WAY out and back to get the mob to move 1 inch to the left.  This tool should work THROUGH walls... but only when the mob is already engaged.... and this is because too many mobs lock themselves inside of a wall due to bad pathing and crappy geometry.<div></div><p><span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Nembutal on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:58 AM</span>

[Giland]

<div></div>You know, I would like some kind of agro transfer or some way to do less agro myself.You have some good ideas there Nembutal on AAs that I would gladly spend points on.They could call it "who? me?"2 sec cast, 15 sec buff, 2 minute recast, transfers 15% of all hate generated to target of buff.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Giland on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:06 PM</span>

[Bremer]

Aggro transfer? Rofl, if you want one play a class that has one.<div></div>

[Giland]

why ? I like playing a class that doesn't have only one role, that of main tank.If a better tank joins, I don't want people looking at zerker and feeling like I am a charity case to stay.I have a hard time DPSing to my full potential because of agro control issues. Am I the only one?Of course, when i do pull agro, I can handle it better than chain/leather/cloth wearers, but that means slow down or stop to allow the MT to get it back.<div></div>

[Nembutal]

<div><blockquote><hr>Bremer wrote:Aggro transfer? Rofl, if you want one play a class that has one.<div></div><hr></blockquote>DPS?  Why would a guardian want any more DPS if they wanted DPS go play a class that has some.Buffs... why would a zerker want a group STR buff... if they wanted buffs why wouldn't they just play a class that has some?Shields?  Why would a priest want a shield they shouldn't be tanking!---------Sarcasm aside.. we would like some sort of aggro transfer because we don't have one and IMHO aggro is a FIGHTER's domain to begin with... not an assassin's not a coercer's... it was odd they got it to begin with.  We get taunts at a lower level to manipulate hate than any other class if I am not mistaken.... we have more aggro tools than any other class on faster recycle times... AGGRO is what we do on raids... Mitigation is really second... DPS is 3rd.  You have have the best DPS and most heavily armored scout in the game... lets say you have a scout with 7000 MIT... if he has AWESOME DPS but for some reason could not maintain aggro... he is not a tank.... give him the ability to maintain aggro... he is now your guild's MT as a scout.Tanking = aggro.... plain and simple.  The fact that as soon as you join a raid that has more than 1 tank your aggro abilities = NOTHING is well... really lame.... because as I was saying AGGRO is what we do.  The mitigation that we have is the excuse we have for using the aggro spells.  The DPS is there to help the overall group or raid dynamic... but our core defining ability is TAUNT.If you can't see that.. you are blind IMHO.  Every class has varying levels of MIT and DPS... we are the only archetype that has taunt... why is that?</div>

[Trynnus1]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nembutal wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR>Aggro transfer? Rofl, if you want one play a class that has one.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>DPS?  Why would a guardian want any more DPS if they wanted DPS go play a class that has some.<BR><BR>Buffs... why would a zerker want a group STR buff... if they wanted buffs why wouldn't they just play a class that has some?<BR><BR>Shields?  Why would a priest want a shield they shouldn't be tanking!<BR><BR>---------<BR><BR>Sarcasm aside.. we would like some sort of aggro transfer because we don't have one and IMHO aggro is a FIGHTER's domain to begin with... not an assassin's not a coercer's... it was odd they got it to begin with.  We get taunts at a lower level to manipulate hate than any other class if I am not mistaken.... we have more aggro tools than any other class on faster recycle times... AGGRO is what we do on raids... Mitigation is really second... DPS is 3rd.  You have have the best DPS and most heavily armored scout in the game... lets say you have a scout with 7000 MIT... if he has AWESOME DPS but for some reason could not maintain aggro... he is not a tank.... give him the ability to maintain aggro... he is now your guild's MT as a scout.<BR><BR>Tanking = aggro.... plain and simple.  The fact that as soon as you join a raid that has more than 1 tank your aggro abilities = NOTHING is well... really lame.... because as I was saying AGGRO is what we do.  The mitigation that we have is the excuse we have for using the aggro spells.  The DPS is there to help the overall group or raid dynamic... but our core defining ability is TAUNT.<BR><BR>If you can't see that.. you are blind IMHO.  Every class has varying levels of MIT and DPS... we are the only archetype that has taunt... why is that?<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] Straight Nembutal. I am DPS spec'd. I die on Raids - ALOT. But when there is already a MT on a raid, what is my roll them? Sweet <STRONG>F all.</STRONG> We dont have any game breaking buff/debuffs or class defining abilities other than being the Crowd control (Taunts).</P> <P>I hold aggro better than Guardians, I have been told, even on single encounters. I would like to give some of that aggro away.</P>

[infernus006]

I think the Debilitation tree will be a very nice line for raiding Zerkers who don't usually tank and want to be able to do more to help their raids besides just trying to DPS.  I do not feel that increasing the effects on our debuffs takes anything away from the image of our class, rather adds to it quite nicely.  I also think the Preserverance tree is nice for tanking Zerkers, particularly the enhancement to Unyielding Will, which is something I for one am keen on getting.  Maybe you think it's a useless ability but I have always loved that spell and I look forward to upgrading it.  So if these lines stay the same as they are now as you have posted them, I may go half-and-half with the aforementioned trees and see how that works for me.  I'm really looking forward to it, and to be honest these AA's are starting to look a lot better than the KoS ones to me.  I also want to add that some of the suggestions you made are not too bad, but most of of them seem aimed primary at just increasing our DPS in some way, and nothing else, which I personally am quite bored with.  I for one would prefer any new abilites that ehance my debuffs and abilities to tank over DPS options at this point.<font color="#ccff00"> </font><div></div>

[Comalv]

<blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote:I think the Debilitation tree will be a very nice line for raiding Zerkers who don't usually tank and want to be able to do more to help their raids besides just trying to DPS.  I do not feel that increasing the effects on our debuffs takes anything away from the image of our class, rather adds to it quite nicely.  I also think the Preserverance tree is nice for tanking Zerkers, particularly the enhancement to Unyielding Will, which is something I for one am keen on getting.  Maybe you think it's a useless ability but I have always loved that spell and I look forward to upgrading it.  So if these lines stay the same as they are now as you have posted them, I may go half-and-half with the aforementioned trees and see how that works for me.  I'm really looking forward to it, and to be honest these AA's are starting to look a lot better than the KoS ones to me.  I also want to add that some of the suggestions you made are not too bad, but most of of them seem aimed primary at just increasing our DPS in some way, and nothing else, which I personally am quite bored with.  I for one would prefer any new abilites that ehance my debuffs and abilities to tank over DPS options at this point.<font color="#ccff00"> </font><div></div><hr></blockquote>even if we get a 300% enhance on all our debuffs they still will be lower than any other brawler/priest/scout/mage debuff so debilitation line is pretty weak (not counting the fact that all the debuffs except disfigure have a terribly short duration and will expire long before u can recast them making them worthless to be put on at all)<div></div>

[Dimgl]

<P><FONT color=#00cc99>Just an update:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>Right now the V2s can be seen in the thread by Bremer titled "<SPAN class=navbar_text><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=26033" target=_blank>Beserker EoF AAs</A>." </SPAN></FONT></P> <P><SPAN class=navbar_text><FONT color=#00cc99>Since the V2s haven't changed significantly, and many of the same problems remain I am going to try to wait out for a V3 (if one is released before EOF opens publically.) When the V3 arrives we'll have to try to give it a last ditch effort to try to improve what we can.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=navbar_text><FONT color=#00cc99>At the very least we need to try to rally the class behind changing the Perseverance ultimate Perseverance. This ability will cause Berserkers who follow that tree to overcap regen in 2-3 points, nevermind how situational and marginal the effect is itself and how it won't even be able to function in groups with classes that have regen buffs, IE Fury or WIS specced Paladins. I'm a big fan of the idea of a "regen tank" however due to regen caps and no way to speed up the tick rate (it occurs every ~6 seconds) the weakness of the ultimate, and the line itself really necessitate re-examination.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=navbar_text><FONT color=#00cc99>[Edit: Not sure why some of the text bold-locked, I can't seem to disable it.]</FONT></P> <P><BR></P></SPAN><p>Message Edited by Dimglow on <span class=date_text>11-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:06 PM</span>

[infernus006]

<div></div><i>"even if we get a 300% enhance on all our debuffs they still will be lower than any other brawler/priest/scout/mage debuff so debilitation line is pretty weak"</i> You are missing the point.  Since we are not a debuffing class at heart, of course it would not be right for our debuffs to be just as good or better than those of a class that 's core function is debuffing...I'm just saying that it's a nice option for Zerkers to have a bit of extra debuffing ability.  It certainly can't hurt anything.  I think you should remember that the whole point of AA's is to gain a bit of extra of something that you don't normally have or to make something that you do have a bit better than it was originally, not to make you into something completely different than what you were to begin with. <i>"all the debuffs except disfigure have a terribly short duration and will expire long before u can recast them making them worthless to be put on at all"</i> Well that just goes to show how much you know about this class.  FYI Zerkers currently only have 3 actual debuffs, not counting the extra one you can get from the KoS WIS line (Belly Smash), and all 3 of them can be recasted as soon as they expire, and the duration of Disfigure is only 4 seconds more than the other 2 which last for 20 seconds, which is not bad IMO, especially since you can recast them as soon as they wear off.  Get a clue. Furthermore, I would just like to add that any tanking Zerker who doesn't think that upgrading Vision of Madness and Unyielding Will is a good idea and would rather have more DPS options instead is pretty silly, but that's just me.  At least the different paths exist so we can all choose the way we want to go, right?  Don't like the Preserverance or Debilitation lines?  Go with something else then.  I just don't understand why some people seem to want to change all the lines they don't like into something they do like when they can't have all the lines anyway.  The whole point of AA's is customization so there needs to be different choices to go with and you can't expect them all to please you. <div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>11-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:37 PM</span>

[Wargurine]

<div><blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote:<div></div>Furthermore, I would just like to add that any tanking Zerker who doesn't think that upgrading Vision of Madness and Unyielding Will is a good idea and would rather have more DPS options instead is pretty silly, but that's just me.  At least the different paths exist so we can all choose the way we want to go, right?  Don't like the Preserverance or Debilitation lines?  Go with something else then.  I just don't understand why some people seem to want to change all the lines they don't like into something they do like when they can't have all the lines anyway.  The whole point of AA's is customization so there needs to be different choices to go with and you can't expect them all to please you. <div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">11-10-2006</span> <span class="time_text">04:37 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Who cares if they knock a couple mins off of the reuse timers on those two? I am a raiding zerker, and everytime I bother to even put that buff up, it never saves me because it just doesn't heal me enough to keep my alive for a heal to land, so I can't say I am too excited about those or will waste any points into them. I never even bothered to buy Unyielding will at all.</div>

[Dimgl]

<FONT color=#00cc99></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> infernus006 wrote:<BR> <BR>Furthermore, I would just like to add that any tanking Zerker who doesn't think that upgrading Vision of Madness and Unyielding Will is a good idea and would rather have more DPS options instead is pretty silly, but that's just me.  At least the different paths exist so we can all choose the way we want to go, right?  Don't like the Preserverance or Debilitation lines?  Go with something else then.  I just don't understand why some people seem to want to change all the lines they don't like into something they do like when they can't have all the lines anyway.  The whole point of AA's is customization so there needs to be different choices to go with and you can't expect them all to please you. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#00cc99>Entire lines have to be considered as the sums of the abilities they comprise. The perseverance line is so bad in my opinion because in order to move down the line you will have to improve your regens (the more you do so, the more you reduce the effectiveness of the ultimate,) and also be forced to swallow a 5 point for one rank ability. Add onto this that the Perseverance ultimate is now another 5 point for one rank ability, and that single rank can't even be utilized to maximum effect due to regen caps, and you have a very constricting line that offers little overall benefit, except if you spend a lot of time near death, or a lot of time dying. The only time that you should be dying repeatedly in a short timeframe would be attempting to make raid content progress. The lifesavers are good, but the line offers little to solo or casual players who can call for help or evac in a dungeon, and little to raiders who don't MT significantly, so it becomes more a line for raid MTs who are attempting to make progress in raid content. That kind of a niche is a little small to justify, isn't it? Compare this to Cyclones, which offers improvements which are useful from solo play to raid play, even if it is also a one dimensional line, and also suffers from a weak ultimate.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>As for "wanting more DPS" I thought that I outlined fairly clearly why SOE can't offer us many if any significant defensive/tanking options. If they did it will only make them necessary for tanks, and can only lead to tremendous amounts of drama if other tank classes don't get the exact same options. Crusaders and Brawlers are -still- upset that we got a mitigation achievement in KOS after all. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>Life savers  and the rest of Perservance aside, it is nigh impossible to argue that having skills that overcap a statistic or effect is a good thing, especially when they are incredibly conditional. How many tanks spend a lot of time sub 25% health? If they changed the ultimate so that it caused regens to tick twice as fast, or some other similar mechanic, it would be much more effective and desirable while achieving the same intended effect of nearly doubling our regen. But as it stands now it is both weak in effect, and counter-intuitive as the more points you sink into the rest of the line the weaker the ability gets thanks to the cap. However if you made it cause regen ticks to tick twice as fast the ultimate would be -more- effective the more points you put into the line. That's a problem.</FONT></P>

[Mordicus]

<DIV>Im sorry Infernus but the Debilitation Line is not helpful when our debuffs are so minor in thier effects, not to mention the fact that the boosts to Agonizing Press and Demolish do not affect epic targets. This entire line needs +15% damage added to all the abilites. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the final abilities they are also futile as Auron has stated, Gut Roar is a 3 second duration. If it were 15 sec i might think about it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The final abilty for bulking, "Berserk", is also a waste of your valuble AA points. Its a clickable berserk that adds 17 points to dps mod and haste, this is 10 less dps/haste than Master 1 Engulfing Rage and has a 3 min recast. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cyclone Final should be somewhere around an extra 10% to all AEs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for Perseverance, again i wont be wasting my AA points on this ability because it isnt worth it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Now ive read the previous posts and i can say there are far too many people that wont be using these final abilities. Im pretty sure thats not what your intention was, to have unused AAs. If unchanged it was ultimately a waste of your time designing them. </STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>The Berserker tree needs a lot of work, its completely unorganized, and most upgrades are not viable options. Its really just unfortunate.</STRONG></DIV>

[K'aldar]

Here's what I did.. 5 in the melee hit/taunt, 5 in both hp regens, 5 in both temp mit buffs, 5 in all ae's, 5 in open wounds and devastation... so far its great.  went through some of the zones that had green/blue heroics and me and a brigand were burning through them pull after pull on top of each other and sometimes with adds with no real problems.  my tanking doesn't seem to have suffered, my dmg got a boost, and i can hold aggro like i never could have before.  <div></div>

[Mordicus]

<div><blockquote><hr>K'aldar wrote:Here's what I did.. 5 in the melee hit/taunt, 5 in both hp regens, 5 in both temp mit buffs, 5 in all ae's, 5 in open wounds and devastation... so far its great.  went through some of the zones that had green/blue heroics and me and a brigand were burning through them pull after pull on top of each other and sometimes with adds with no real problems.  my tanking doesn't seem to have suffered, my dmg got a boost, and i can hold aggro like i never could have before.  <div></div><hr></blockquote>And not a single final ability, and this seems "great" to you ?</div>

[Urza]

<P>Yeah I have no final ability in KOS AA's I was hopeing I had to not do the same in EOF</P> <P>Only final ability I am getting is Gut roar and only other AA ability I want is Enhance Unyielding will.   Which Enhance Unyielding will forces me to get the instant berserk which kinda sucks cause it does not stack with our other Berserk proc  and on top of that it overights the 27% with the 17% so for 10 secs you are [Removed for Content] <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>So hopefully our fable set gear makes up for all this <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I am just trying to wonder why Guardians get 10% double attack with any weapon, a whole tree to giving them DPS on all their CA's, and a Tower of Stone that does not eat their shield and can work with any shield including a buckler.  They can also make it where every fighter in the raid can stay in on an AOE like every 1 min.</P> <P> </P> <P>I bet 5 bucks our Gut Roar wont work on epics because having 3 berserks on a Raid and use Gut Roar to stop every single AOE will be over powered so its going to only work on heroics <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>L8er Tuppo</P> <P>70 Bersker of Havoc</P> <P>Nagafen</P>

[PhoenixTears]

<DIV>You can put 5 into gut roar and have it be 15 seconds,  but its still broken right now.. it doesnt ''counter'' anything and im still not even sure what the nature of ''counter'' exactly means.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My overall summary of all our aa's comes down to this..   I dont care about my debuffs.To this day i still couldnt even tell you which skill debuffs what without looking at them, why would i want to enhance them? (by a minimal ammount to boot)   I dont care about reducing the effects of short term buffs like supressed rage.  Such a change isnt even noticeable in the grand scheme of things. I realy realy realy realy dont care about  having 20 hp regen when my health is below 25%   if my health is below 25% it usualy means i have aggro on a couple epic mobs or im tanking and my healers are afk, and 20 freaking hp regen isnt going to do jack for me.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>in short...   All of the end line abilities worth getting (and i say worth meaning the ones that suck the least? )  require you to take abilities that are worthless... The abilities that are decent  give you worthless end line abilities... And above anything else 90% of the abilities are weak upgrades to skills that none of us realy care about.  I will enhance my ae damage, i will take the reductions to open wounds, rampage, and mayhem. and i will quit at that, because nothing else is worth it...</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by PhoenixTears on <span class=date_text>11-12-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:41 PM</span>

[infernus006]

I just think that all of you whiners are expecting way too much out of the AA's in general and are losing sight of their intended purpose.  They are not supposed to make you "all uber" and they are not going to make you or break you.  They are only meant to be minor enhancements to your abilities, nothing more.  The way I look at it is I see several things that will help me with what I do and that makes me happy.  FYI, the debuffs on Persistant Battering and Disfigure reduce the amount of melee damage that mobs are able to dish out, and that is a nice advantage whether you are tanking or filling in for DPS on raids.  Don't take it for granted.  But if you really don't think it's worth it then don't bother with it, go with one of the DPS lines that are available instead and quit complaining about everything just because it won't give you scout DPS.  Also, lets not forget about soloing.  Many of you seem to be looking at everything from a raid-only standpoint, which I think is very closeminded.  Many of the new abilities will be very useful while soloing even if they don't do jack on raids, to include the extra HP regen.  Honestly, you can't expect them to give out a bunch of new abilities that will make a huge difference in raids without having it be majorly overpowered when you're by yourself.  So try looking at the big picture for a change and maybe you'll see that things aren't quite so bad. <div></div>

[Conjourer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> infernus006 wrote:<BR>I just think that all of you whiners are expecting way too much out of the AA's in general and are losing sight of their intended purpose.  They are not supposed to make you "all uber" and they are not going to make you or break you.  They are only meant to be minor enhancements to your abilities, nothing more.  The way I look at it is I see several things that will help me with what I do and that makes me happy.  FYI, the debuffs on Persistant Battering and Disfigure reduce the amount of melee damage that mobs are able to dish out, and that is a nice advantage whether you are tanking or filling in for DPS on raids.  Don't take it for granted.  But if you really don't think it's worth it then don't bother with it, go with one of the DPS lines that are available instead and quit complaining about everything just because it won't give you scout DPS.  <FONT color=#ffcc00>Also, lets not forget about soloing.</FONT>  Many of you seem to be looking at everything from a raid-only standpoint, which I think is very closeminded.  Many of the new abilities will be very useful while soloing even if they don't do jack on raids, to include the extra HP regen.  Honestly, you can't expect them to give out a bunch of new abilities that will make a huge difference in raids without having it be majorly overpowered when you're by yourself.  So try looking at the big picture for a change and maybe you'll see that things aren't quite so bad.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ffcc00>Trust me, forget about soloing.. Unless you like to solo Non Heroics...cause even a green Heroic will give you problems, and Blue Heroics will straight out kill you solo, even if your uber geared...No amount of HP regen is gonna change it...they made it so you can't solo Heroics...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00></FONT> </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Listen...the spark that led to so much unhappiness from our new AA's is the simple fact that KoS AA's were very desirable and EoF AA's were not so much...If you would rather have these EoF AA's over our KoS ones, then you can start calling everyone whinners, or what ever, but if you can at least agree that these AA's fail to compare to KoS you can keep your little reprimand...Hmm what would I rather have, 22% crits chance on every thing I do or 25% more damage to one of my 45second recast, AoE CA's...300 plus more mitigation, which is always on me, static, no recast, no timer, nothing, or 15 more seconds of a Temp Mit buff that slows you down so bad its only good for when your standing still? </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Hands down, no contest... its not that the new AA's are just completely a waste, they just don't deliver as well as the first set did..but maybe if they kept going beter sooner or later they would of broken the game, I don't know, but I do know that alot of other classes got some neat things, like ManaBurn, LifeBurn, Added Safefall to SoW,  heals added to cures....we got extra radius on AoE's and an instant berserk that is of lower amounts then our reg berserk, and overwrites the Berserk Proc on our buffs instead of stacks....</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Syrius Silverblade</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>70/50 Berserker</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Venekor</FONT></P>

[Bremer]

Especially on raids Disfigure and Persistent Battering have no use as debuffs because other classes will debuff haste and melee skills beyond the cap. Gut Roar is only really usefull on raids and to get it you have to waste points on these enhancements.Except reduced timer for Destruction and Open Wounds there is nothing that will noticably increase our damage output and I'm not even sure that 25 seconds faster recast for these will be noticable.<div></div>All DD classes will be able to increase their damage output and we get almost no increased DPS and a only minor improved for one taunt.The AAs are not supposed to make you an overpowered DD or an uber tank, but they are supposed to make your character unique and the way they are now it will be hardly possible to tell the difference between a Zerker who spent his points on increased damage and one who put his points on improved tanking.