Ditching the Buckler

[Conjourer]

<DIV>Greetings everyone,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have been a big proponent of the Stamina Line since the AP's came into existance. I immediately saw the potential and after putting the points into the line I was very pleased with what I experienced. Last night, for example, while on a Lyceum Raid, I was consitently in the top 5 on the parser, consistently doing over 1k dps sustained throughout the raid. For a Plate tank I think that is incredible, and this using a 1hander (of course that is using everything but the kitchen sink ie open wounds, destruction, jugernaught, and a dirge in group for Cacophony). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, I just got a new Tower Shield and it was too tempting to pass up, so I am seriously considering respecing. Just currious, of the non Stamina line Berserkers, what is your personal preferance on lines, do you see any merrit at all in taking the ultimate in any of the lines (only one I would consider is Wis ultimate, but even with its utility, I still can't see justifying putting 8 points into it).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My feeling on the matter is I will definately stick with Wis 4-4-8-8 for the DPS and Mit...but what to do with the other 24 points? I have considered going Int, Agi, or Str..but not sure which...so just post what your personal choice was and why, and help me out please...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Syrius Silverblade</DIV> <DIV>70/50 Berserker</DIV> <DIV>Venekor Server</DIV>

[zak]

same position here, started off building the wis line when KoS was released then switchd to stam line when i had enough AA's for double attack ditched the stam line about a month ago... personal preference really. recommend str line to max crits which works on auto attack and CA's, i think any line is viable but imo haste is far too easy to cap for now to make the int line of any real use. i like wis and str lines myself for the mit and crits.... but then again my zerker is an alt that dosnt raid nor do i play on a pvp server so take that for what its worth <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Wargurine]

I just recently spec'd out of sta line myself. I have loved the dps of the sta line, but I hated using a pansy [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] little buckler, mainly for roleplay reasons =p  I went 4/4/8/8 str and 4/4//8/8 wis with my one xtra point in sta since I don't hit cap yet usually. Seems to be workign pretty good for me, sitting in def stance and using Shadow Axe and Qeynos Guard I was avging almost 700dps (the only dps buff I had in the grp was Inquisitor and fury agitate). If I switched to dw using wurmslayer and essensia I was avging mid 800's dps. The dps loss hurt, but the Qeynos Guard is just such a sexy shield I couldn't resist using it, and I think that the 10% hate gain of the str line will make up for it (hopefully).<div></div>

[FightGame]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wargurine wrote:<BR>and I think that the 10% hate gain of the str line will make up for it (hopefully).<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P>20% more dps (from sta line) > 10% hate</P> <P> </P> <P>but the added crits on everything + 10% hate is probably pretty close.</P> <P> </P> <P>I was in strength line for max hate and max crits and didn't hold aggro quite as well as I do now in the stamina line (comparing using the same group/raid setups).  I rarely lose aggro any way, but figured I might as well do about 20% more damage and lose the 3-4% avoidance, even more so since avoidance is kinda broke right now anyway.  They are suppose to be fixing avoidance in the expansion, so I may leave stamina line to try it.</P>

[Wargurine]

I do miss the dps, but I wouldn't say its 20% dps differance, I would say maybe 10. And I also went from using the Archaic buckler to usign the Qeynos guard and it was a huge stat differance. I gained about 7 or 8% avoidance, a lot of hp's, some mit, plus the just awesome proc on the Qeynos guard that I swear has more than mearly 5% chance to proc. I actually find it easier now to solo the nest instance than it was on sta line because of the defensive differance, the dps loss doesn't hurt all that bad.On a side note, since we are talking about aggro, does the hate buff from a coercer and from a dirge stack? I have heard both ways and would just like to hear another opinion.<div></div>

[Legiax]

<P>STA line has its merits.</P> <P>...</P> <P> </P> <P>Moving on lol, for a non STA build, the WIS line is awesome, i would recommend something like: </P> <P>4-4-4-8 WIS (mit bonus is big)</P> <P>4-4-4 STR (sick crit dmg with rampage + open wounds, especially if your gonna find a nice fabled axe)</P> <P>(Other than the above, anything else has its uses, however the next line is nice if you want a bit more DPS, + if your on a pvp server the parry is great.)</P> <P>4-4-4-5 INT (Haste + Parry, also will slightly increase your proc effects... not really that noticable)</P> <P> </P> <P>AA Builds truly are a unique thing though, everyone will post a different opinion, and it depends entirely on what gear you have, and what classes your spending most of your time with. I play on PvP servers now more than blue servers and things like parry are crucial... yet on a blue server i wouldnt touch it.</P>

[Conjourer]

<P>Ok, an update..</P> <P>Prior to my gaining the fabled tower shield off of Vilucidae I was sitting at 4.7k Mit, and right around 45% avoidance self buffed. Stam 4-5-8-8, Wis 4-4-8-8. This gave me double attack, 19% DPS mod, and I was very happy with my dps, but the whole point was to increase my survivablity for raiding. I have Frostwrath, fabled 1handed axe 77ish DR.</P> <P>I switched up to an interesting build, trying to maximize my dps as much as possible. I went Wis 4-4-8-8, Str 4-4-8-4, Int 4-1</P> <P>This gave me 19% dps, 22% crit, and when sword equiped 22% haste on top of Rage procs which is master 2, for sustained in combat 47% dps, 22% crit, 50% haste(with 2handed sword equiped) for dpsing when not tanking. I took a major hit to my dps with this build, using all the tricks I had used prior ie open wounds, destruction, jugernaught. No longer showing up near the top of the parser. When tanking my best 1hander is frostwrath, which is an axe, so I lose the 22% haste from Int line. Needless to say dps is lessened further. </P> <P>My mit is now better, 4789, and avoidance self buffed is around 52%...but I am questioning whether or not it was worth giving up all that dps for an additional 7% avoidance, and about 86 mit. The lack of a Fabled Buckler in T7 had me kind of down, the best choice available to me being Ajzeroths guard (or however its spelled) and it was elussive to me, having not gotten it in over 25 trips to HoF... was using Thexian Dinner plate from Nek tribulation...</P> <P> </P> <P>I will wait to see if I can get a fabled 2handed Sword to improve dps further, and also interested to see how things change with EoF with avoidance and mit changes...so far I am not impressed with the choice I made. There was alot of pressure from peers regarding Buckler, and survivablity. I had the chance to Tank Gorenaire last night though, or at least be in the rotation of tanks on her...(for those not familiar with that encounter, she teleports the person at the top of her list to a random location every 45 seconds or so, so a few people end up tanking her through the encounter) and I can say I was definately impressed at the lack of damage I was taking in the fight. </P> <P>Jury is still out, but I will update this as I continue to change my mind on the subject.</P> <P> </P> <P>Syrius Silverblade</P> <P>70/50 Berserker</P> <P>Venekor Server</P>

[arieste]

<P>I think the main downside to this switch is that the Tower shield has no AA associated with it.  So you are going from a buckler AA to tower and no AA.</P> <P>What i mean is, you can have the buckler AA and put on a tower shield, and your defensive capabilities would be the same as if you didnt have the buckler AA and put on the tower shield.   Meaning that you can keep you AAs in the buckler line, do uber DPS and if the encounter really calls for it, strap on that tower shield and get just as much benefit from it defensively.</P> <P>I think that if there were a Tower Shield AA line that increased defence, this would be a good tradeoff, as it stands now, I don't see any reason to take AAs out of the buckler line.   </P> <P>Ask yourself, in what % of encounters would I prefer +6% avoid and +60mit over +200dps?  (There is no right answer btw, depends on playstyle).</P> <P> </P>

[tvies]

<P>I agree.  The AAs are way too one sided.  With the current setup you can't stack defensive AAs.  In order to gain an offensive ability in most lines you have to spend 5-9 points.  To gain a defensive one you need 13!  So you can not stack defense AAs as much as you can with offense.  I don't know if SOE did some research and the biggest complaint by tanks was the lack of DPS.  Or they are trying to make the game harder by reducing the amount of defense in the game since I've heard stories of tanks taking on end game epics with a buckler and mixed treasures/master/fabled/legendary gear.  If thats the case your probably not going to see SOE boosting defense anytime in the future.  I smell a MIT/DEF nerf <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><p>Message Edited by tvieson on <span class=date_text>10-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:50 AM</span>

[arieste]

<P>plenty of raid tanks tank "end-game" epics with a buckler.  This in my experience raiding, not "story".  I'm sure the MT zerkers around this forum will say as much <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Myself (level 70 - STR, STA, WIS 4/4/<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I use the Villu shield to tank the harder mobs sometimes. Why?  Because my armor is not top end.   If i had top end mitigation gear, I dont think i would ever use the tower.</P> <P> </P>

[Wargurine]

<div><blockquote><hr>tvieson wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>Or they are trying to make the game harder by reducing the amount of defense in the game since I've heard stories of tanks taking on end game epics with a buckler and mixed treasures/master/fabled/legendary gear.  If thats the case your probably not going to see SOE boosting defense anytime in the future.  I smell a MIT/DEF nerf <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Message Edited by tvieson on <span class="date_text">10-17-2006</span> <span class="time_text">10:50 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Its not a story. Before I respec'd I have tanked everything but chel and teh matron with my buckler. And the dev's have already posted that mit is being nerfed in the expansion <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I thought about not changing out of the buckler spec and just swapping in the tower shield when it was needed, but the problem with that is the hate loss. I would want to at least have 4/4/8/8 sta and 4/4/4/8 wis, but then I don't have enough points to hit the 10% hate gain in str. So all of my aggro would be tied in with my buckler, if I swapped that out I would have nothing to help boost my aggro from the really bad hit it just took. Thats why I respec'd totally</div>

[xandez]

<div></div>well, of course all these lines has their uses.And unless you havent noticed yet, everything which opts you to makes some choices, gives ~ the same benefits in the end? This is the SOE policy i guess, why? To make ppl not whine so much about "this line sucks compared to this line"Yah, it might seem that some AA lines do indeed suck compared to some other, but in certain situations etc, they are pretty well balanced out. And if they arent, they will be.So, in the end, its a matter of personal reference what you wanna do, you wont loose/gain a significant amount by building some "odd" combos... unless you put all your AA:s to just stats <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (maybe)++Xan<div></div><p>Message Edited by xandez on <span class=date_text>10-18-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:23 AM</span>

[Thor Of Hal]

<DIV>As a zerker dps is everything for hate gain.  You will find that you wont be able to hold agro without the double attack maxed out as well.  And from personal experience (Having pritty much all the top end 2h in game) the only 2h that comes anywhere close matching a 1h + Buckler is the Jade Inlaid Crescent Axe...   Even then it struggles to match or exceed a Shadowaxe + buckler/ Qeynos Qilij + buckler combo!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DONT loose the buckler line, you will nerf your tanking ability AND your dps.  Many say it sucks but thats the way it is... Guardians perhaps are less reliant on the buckler because they have more taunts and agro managment spells then us. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its critical to get your DPS high for raids esp. for tanking, jus look at openwounds/destruction they are our AoE argro managment and there is no threat assoc with them.  Insolent Gibe is pathetic, guardians get (@ m1) get a taunt proc has 50% chance to proc 478 threat, the Insolent Gibe master one is 50% chance to proc 570 (i think) and it only lasts 34secs!!! + They get a AoE taunt./.. though i think the AoE on IG is better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With a SK Death March, Caco of Blades + haste buffs, i reached 2,7k in parse in DT.  Mind you it was the perfect group setup... And i have tanked Tarinax, Matron, Vil, Gor, Talon, Harla, Vene etc with T7 fabled/legendary.. its no myth!!  Its the skill of all the players to a certain extent that allow you to do this.  I say to a certain extent because some encounters u need a specific stat buffed and if u got [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]e gear u have to nerf ur other stats <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So basically, atm mitigation is uber (till eof) and dps from buckler is uberest dps/hate gain (till eof) so if  you wanna have the best tank AA setup unfortunately there is only one really viable option: Wis 4,4,8,8 Sta: 4,4,8,8.   It dont mean u have to use it, jus means life will be a bit more easier for you when ya tank.... This i feel SoE will address in EoF with new AAlines/Items/Equipment/Cap increase.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vladnor The Berserk</DIV> <DIV>70 Berserker</DIV> <DIV>Unity</DIV> <DIV>Splitpaw</DIV>

[Conjourer]

<P>Maintaining hate while tanking has not been a problem...</P> <P>I parsed in a single group in HoF yesterday and it was similar to what I had experienced prior to the change, so I don't think I am hating the respec so much anymore. I don't disagree that mit is king, but the issue with what your saying about the AA builds is if all things are equal. That was the issue, I stood to gain Mit from using the fabled Tower, so I went with it, (show me a fabled buckler in T7, or any buckler that gives 144 mit to slash, crush, pierce and I will switch back to sta line) and I couldn't see any sense in completely gimping my dps by sticking with Sta line if I wasn't using the buckler.. Wis and Str are a fine combo of AP's...crits and dps mod have been fine so far. Out dpsing everyone in my group with a wiz, swash, and ranger in group was a definite plus....</P> <P> </P> <P>Syrius</P>

[Gortesh]

Plenty of Zerkers raid tank with bucklers(and Gaurdians too!), if you actually think about it, Gaurdians only out do the Berserker when it comes ot long sustained fights and some boss battles.I did this with my AA's --> Sta: 4-8-8-1 Wis: 4-8-8-8The reason being is that the Buckler Reversal skill actually procs more often than it says it does. About once every 20 seconds or so, and while on a raid you dont get hit every second of the fight, plus you already have enough avoidance form others in your group and if you have master stances and buffs, your avoidance is already high enough.Technically I would triple attack every 20 seconds or so, this helps me hold aggro, along with the AA DPS buff and Double Attack I can actually just taunt once or twice during a fight and just melee the rest of the way rarely using skills.The Mitigation Debuff from the Wisdom line is incredibly useful for raiding, when its mixed in with dispatch, your talking over 4.5k mitigation knocked off the mob, at 70 with the Belly Smash skill maxed out, it takes off 1575 mitigation, rendering most mages almost naked as well!<div></div>

[Wargurine]

<div><blockquote><hr>Gortesh wrote:Plenty of Zerkers raid tank with bucklers(and Gaurdians too!), if you actually think about it, Gaurdians only out do the Berserker when it comes ot long sustained fights and some boss battles.I did this with my AA's --> Sta: 4-8-8-1 Wis: 4-8-8-8The reason being is that the Buckler Reversal skill actually procs more often than it says it does. About once every 20 seconds or so, and while on a raid you dont get hit every second of the fight, plus you already have enough avoidance form others in your group and if you have master stances and buffs, your avoidance is already high enough.Technically I would triple attack every 20 seconds or so, this helps me hold aggro, along with the AA DPS buff and Double Attack I can actually just taunt once or twice during a fight and just melee the rest of the way rarely using skills.The Mitigation Debuff from the Wisdom line is incredibly useful for raiding, when its mixed in with dispatch, your talking over 4.5k mitigation knocked off the mob, at 70 with the Belly Smash skill maxed out, it takes off 1575 mitigation, rendering most mages almost naked as well!<div></div><hr></blockquote>umm, have you actually raided in T7? Because belly smash requires the mob to be knocked down to use it, and epics are immune to almost every knockdown ability, and even if the mob *does* get knocked down, half the time it doesn't do the animation so you would never know it anyways...</div>

[Ep]

"That was the issue, I stood to gain Mit from using the fabled Tower, so I went with it, (show me a fabled buckler in T7, or any buckler that gives 144 mit to slash, crush, pierce and I will switch back to sta line) and I couldn't see any sense in completely gimping my dps by sticking with Sta line if I wasn't using the buckler.."archaic buckler is your draconic/claymore/viculade shield equivilent. it does a few resists(200, and some 400) 80hp/pow, and 72/72/72 i think or something. well yea it's not 144 mit, but it's your best equivilent, and the best buckler in game for sta atm. Easy hos trash item to get, just bid a bit more dkp over a few priests(they won't want it anyway, most get claymore rewards or FT 19gear, lol). Or if you know your fighting a pure slashing epic, switch over to ironplate w/ the 140to slash.<div></div>

[Thor Of Hal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Conjourer wrote:<BR> <P>Maintaining hate while tanking has not been a problem...</P> <P>I parsed in a single group in HoF yesterday and it was similar to what I had experienced prior to the change, so I don't think I am hating the respec so much anymore. I don't disagree that mit is king, but the issue with what your saying about the AA builds is if all things are equal. That was the issue, I stood to gain Mit from using the fabled Tower, so I went with it, (show me a fabled buckler in T7, or any buckler that gives 144 mit to slash, crush, pierce and I will switch back to sta line) and I couldn't see any sense in completely gimping my dps by sticking with Sta line if I wasn't using the buckler.. Wis and Str are a fine combo of AP's...crits and dps mod have been fine so far. Out dpsing everyone in my group with a wiz, swash, and ranger in group was a definite plus....</P> <P> </P> <P>Syrius</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Im not entirely sure im following you in that post.  What was ur change u experienced? what was your previous AA setup and ur current?</P> <P>And dps in a group is very different to dps in a raid... i have parsed 3/4k in a group before.  </P> <P>And what i say about hate is top end gaming, when you have a well equiped raid force behind you (in terms of masters and experience) you need every bit of hate you can get yourself coz the group setup might not always be the greatest for you.</P> <P>If you want true dps with any 1hander weapon go</P> <P>wis 4,4,8</P> <P>sta 4,4,8</P> <P>str 4,4,8</P> <P>You loose the 312 to miti and the aoe avoidance but you parse like an A bomb on speed!!  In a [Removed for Content] group with me and just a healer.. was a templar... i was still parsing 1 - 1.5k+ with no buffs but my own for dps in that aa setup.   </P> <P>Not quit sure if this addressed what ur saying conj....</P> <P>And Gortesh buckler reversal DEFINANTLY does NOT proc more then every 30+ seconds or so on a single target.  Its confirmed in parses and in combat tab i have run.  What does happen however is that it does somtimes proc on other mobs that are attacking you, but that mob will still have to wait 30 seconds before a dodge/miss/parry will cause buckler reversal to proc again.   And imo, the 19% dps you get from the wis aa line is worth more then the buckler reversal esp. if you have a good 1hander weapon.  With shadowaxe i hit + double attack in raids with at on average 800-1k and with crits up to 1.8k! Ands thats jus shadow axe which is [Removed for Content] compared to planar axe of destruction + the one that drops of matron.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Vladnor The Berserk</P> <P>70 Berserker</P> <P>Unity</P> <P>Splitpaw</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on <span class=date_text>10-21-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:32 AM</span>

[Conjourer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Thor Of Halla wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Im not entirely sure im following you in that post.  What was ur change u experienced? what was your previous AA setup and ur current?</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And dps in a group is very different to dps in a raid... i have parsed 3/4k in a group before.  </P> <P>And what i say about hate is top end gaming, when you have a well equiped raid force behind you (in terms of masters and experience) you need every bit of hate you can get yourself coz the group setup might not always be the greatest for you.</P> <P>If you want true dps with any 1hander weapon go</P> <P>wis 4,4,8</P> <P>sta 4,4,8</P> <P>str 4,4,8</P> <P>You loose the 312 to miti and the aoe avoidance but you parse like an A bomb on speed!!  In a [Removed for Content] group with me and just a healer.. was a templar... i was still parsing 1 - 1.5k+ with no buffs but my own for dps in that aa setup.   </P> <P>Not quit sure if this addressed what ur saying conj....</P> <P>And Gortesh buckler reversal DEFINANTLY does NOT proc more then every 30+ seconds or so on a single target.  Its confirmed in parses and in combat tab i have run.  What does happen however is that it does somtimes proc on other mobs that are attacking you, but that mob will still have to wait 30 seconds before a dodge/miss/parry will cause buckler reversal to proc again.   And imo, the 19% dps you get from the wis aa line is worth more then the buckler reversal esp. if you have a good 1hander weapon.  With shadowaxe i hit + double attack in raids with at on average 800-1k and with crits up to 1.8k! Ands thats jus shadow axe which is [Removed for Content] compared to planar axe of destruction + the one that drops of matron.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Vladnor The Berserk</P> <P>70 Berserker</P> <P>Unity</P> <P>Splitpaw</P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on <SPAN class=date_text>10-21-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:32 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ok Vladnor, I went through all of my prior specs in the OP and subsequent posts, so I guess I figured I didn't have to repeat the original spec, and was just continuing the commentary as I ventured through the experiment.</P> <P>I agree with you, the absolute best dps spec has to be:</P> <P>wis 4,4,8</P> <P>sta 4,4,8</P> <P>str 4,4,8</P> <P>No question, only thing I wonder is with that spec, can you survive any T7 fight against even or higher con creatures? If I wanted to be a swashy/brigand I would of gone there from character creation...the idea is to tank, and still do reasonable dps...</P> <P>I also agree that dps is completely different in group vs raid, but as I said, I parsed similar in a single group in HoF as I had prior to the respec....if you scroll up a bit you will see my description of my raid parse experience after respec...and how I was a bit disapointed in what I found.</P> <P>Lastly, being on Venekor, we don't have that many guilds that have even done more than gain access to DT, let alone clear it, or better..so not a whole lot of Shadow Axes or hah plannar axes of destruction running around here...my FrostWrath is prolly considered very uber by most...simply because its fabled, but we have PvP gear here that you don't have access to, purchased from city merchants once you have enough pvp kills and the weapons at the top end are very good, comparable to fabled raid drops. </P> <P>So anyway, mostly agreeing with you, and pointing out the answer to your question is above, if you take the time to go read it....</P> <P> </P> <P>Syrius </P>

[Wargurine]

Don't have to be able to clear DT to get shadow axe, or even have DT access just fyi. It comes from Halls of Seeing from a pretty easy boss. <div></div>

[Conjourer]

<DIV>Ah thanks...never been to Hall of Seeing, but we will be hitting it this coming week to see what we can find....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Syrius</DIV><p>Message Edited by Conjourer on <span class=date_text>10-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:59 AM</span>

[Thor Of Hal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Conjourer wrote:<BR> <P><BR>Ok Vladnor, I went through all of my prior specs in the OP and subsequent posts, so I guess I figured I didn't have to repeat the original spec, and was just continuing the commentary as I ventured through the experiment.</P> <P>I agree with you, the absolute best dps spec has to be:</P> <P>wis 4,4,8</P> <P>sta 4,4,8</P> <P>str 4,4,8</P> <P>No question, only thing I wonder is with that spec, can you survive any T7 fight against even or higher con creatures? If I wanted to be a swashy/brigand I would of gone there from character creation...the idea is to tank, and still do reasonable dps...</P> <P>I also agree that dps is completely different in group vs raid, but as I said, I parsed similar in a single group in HoF as I had prior to the respec....if you scroll up a bit you will see my description of my raid parse experience after respec...and how I was a bit disapointed in what I found.</P> <P>Lastly, being on Venekor, we don't have that many guilds that have even done more than gain access to DT, let alone clear it, or better..so not a whole lot of Shadow Axes or hah plannar axes of destruction running around here...my FrostWrath is prolly considered very uber by most...simply because its fabled, but we have PvP gear here that you don't have access to, purchased from city merchants once you have enough pvp kills and the weapons at the top end are very good, comparable to fabled raid drops. </P> <P>So anyway, mostly agreeing with you, and pointing out the answer to your question is above, if you take the time to go read it....</P> <P> </P> <P>Syrius </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> Conj/Syrius, I did read it again m8, and my reasoning still stands as you agree yourself, perhaps it was ur group setup. </P> <P>I have tanked and killed Tarinax, venekor, vil, harla etc  (duoed w/ guardian= memwipe) With that dps aa setup, tanked matron too.  It is doable, but with mobs like matron you would need a good group setup, and [Removed for Content] out gear.  However, your survivability would be higher with the wis/sta tank setting.  The degree of high or big that difference in survivability is, depeneds how well equiped you and your fellow raid force is in terms of equipment and masters etc and who you have in your group.  If thats all uber then hell go for that setup and boost ur dps thru the roof.  I jus personally respeced coz i couldnt resist the overpoweredness of % survivablity atm and that in EoF caps gunna be raised to 10k.  </P> <P>However, as you say, your on a pvp server so things are a bit more complicated.</P> <P>Btw Shadowaxe drops of the named 3 legged Oblisk of Lost Souls type creature that spawns at the bottom of the stairs before the mist imbued named (right at entrance down corridor then left when u get to small room - er i think, memory crap = 2am).  Think its ' A Shadowy Prescence'....   Planar axe drops of 3 princes in barren sky (guardian ilse).</P> <P>I guess in the end its all down to the difference between PVP and PVE servers...  I havnt been on pvp and nor would i really bother, so when i talk about what i talk about its about the pve... and us in general... provided ofcourse zerkers havnt been uber messed around with for transferal to pvp.</P> <P> </P> <P>Vladnor The Berserk</P> <P>70 Berserker</P> <P>Unity</P> <P>Splitpaw</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P> <P>Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on <SPAN class=date_text>10-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:57 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on <SPAN class=date_text>10-22-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:58 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on <span class=date_text>10-22-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:59 PM</span>

[Gonzo550]

<P>I have respeced several times and even tried the buckler since several main tanks said it was the way to go. My test results indicate a significantly higher dps output with my 2hander and the str line than the sta/wis line.</P> <P>Background: I'm lvl70, some raid gear, almost maxed str, most master attacks. 46 AAs. one hander is a velium blade - DR 72. 2hander has 106 dam rating (forget name). </P> <P>first test mob was a lvl50^^^ giant in SS desert. Speced, 4,4,8,8 in sta and wis. the one hander parsed 600-700 without using destruction,open wounds etc. dps mod was 47, haste 28%. </P> <P>Same setup, using all the "toys" I call them, destruction - open wounds - weapon aegis, dps 47%, haste 73%. parse 800-850. </P> <P>Both tests were repeated three times with results within 5 percent of each other.</P> <P>Second setup: str 4,4,8,. wis 4,4,8,8. int 4,1. without toys. dps 47%, haste 50%. parse 800-900. </P> <P>With toys. dps 47%. haste 95%. parse 1050-1100. </P> <P>the exact same tests were performed on epic trash in labs with slightly lower numbers but the same result. with the buckler, i barly broke 600 unless i used the toys. with the toys I could still hit 800ish. With the 2hander, I'm easily doing 850+ and can crank it to 1100 before I pull agro and die. (this happens a lot)</P> <P>If you have an uber 2hander, I see the str line being better than the sta line. If your one-hander is better, then sta might be the way. I don't tank the raids but I dont have any trouble getting agro or keeping it. Saturday's raid had me with my 2 hander in a grp with an inquis and a illusionist. 77 dps mod, 100 haste. I could pull agro auto attacking even if I went afk for the first half of the fight. (auto attack parsed at 900)</P> <P>I'm still experimenting with the intel line. With some haste gear I might ditch it (i want the gauntlets BAD). not sure what else to put 5 points into though. Doubt I'll need the hate from the str line. might put it in to get 25 sta or something more or less useless.</P>

[Legiax]

<DIV>You sir, are spot on!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont go with the INT line though, as a fellow 2hander wielding zerker, the INT line at your level will be useless for the haste since u should be capped with ease in any good group. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The WIS line really works well with STR line for the DPS boost, which is a little harder to cap out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Oldlore]

Hehe he won't be capped for haste very easily in a few weeks.  Although it remains to be seen how effective an extra 22%+ haste will really be in with the new caps.<div></div>

[Ep]

if your comparing 2h to 1h+buckler line you have to keep it equal. any 2h with a rating of 95+(like runeblade, and the 50other 106 rating type 2hs) is already at the upper eschelon of dps for 2h. which is only really equal to a 1h of velium quality. Get any 1h made for dps, like the viculiade sword, shadow axe, good ol frostbringer, heck even sword of shielding, ascendant and you will greatly eclipse what 2h damage can do. I won't even mention how well a venekor sword/rapier parses.if you never plan to ever go down the int line, do yourself a favor try and find 5aa's somewhere, anywhere and pop them into int, i mean it's about the best singular investment in aa's anywhere, 5aa's for 22%(almost always active, depends if you remember to use it, and a bit restricted to sword but at least it's not something stupid like hammer/staff/rapier, almost all of us use either sword/axe anyway).i don't off tank as much as i did a month ago but i do anywhere from 1300-1700 with str/sta, offtanking in offstance. If i have to be on the ball and pick up when the mt dies i'll be in def stance and do 1k to 1.2k dps.i don't know what i do when i mt, i'm pretty sure i'm top 3, but i always attribute that to ds and procs, and that should never count for dps parses.<div></div>

[Laoch69]

<FONT color=#66ffff>Of the aa lines that I have tried out, the agility line is definitely the funnest (for me).  Extra aoe attacks, and a chance at doing aoe damage, all the time.  May not be the "best" for end game, this that or the other, but when it comes to fun it is great <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT>

[Disturbe]

As it stands of course its easy to tank epics with a buckler, hell even a monk with higher than 70% avoidance still gets high 90% of the time, how often do you even block on raids? 1 out of 100 times mayb? As it stands now its all about the mit, question is: when the combat ramps come in is that 5% - 10% avoidance going to make a BIG difference against raid mob? If it comes out be be a soild 5% - 10% avoidance i don't think anyone will see too many bucklers vs named raid mobs anymore.

[Thor Of Hal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gonzo550 wrote:<BR> <P>I have respeced several times and even tried the buckler since several main tanks said it was the way to go. My test results indicate a significantly higher dps output with my 2hander and the str line than the sta/wis line.</P> <P>Background: I'm lvl70, some raid gear, almost maxed str, most master attacks. 46 AAs. one hander is a velium blade - DR 72. 2hander has 106 dam rating (forget name). </P> <P>first test mob was a lvl50^^^ giant in SS desert. Speced, 4,4,8,8 in sta and wis. the one hander parsed 600-700 without using destruction,open wounds etc. dps mod was 47, haste 28%. </P> <P>Same setup, using all the "toys" I call them, destruction - open wounds - weapon aegis, dps 47%, haste 73%. parse 800-850. </P> <P>Both tests were repeated three times with results within 5 percent of each other.</P> <P>Second setup: str 4,4,8,. wis 4,4,8,8. int 4,1. without toys. dps 47%, haste 50%. parse 800-900. </P> <P>With toys. dps 47%. haste 95%. parse 1050-1100. </P> <P>the exact same tests were performed on epic trash in labs with slightly lower numbers but the same result. with the buckler, i barly broke 600 unless i used the toys. with the toys I could still hit 800ish. With the 2hander, I'm easily doing 850+ and can crank it to 1100 before I pull agro and die. (this happens a lot)</P> <P>If you have an uber 2hander, I see the str line being better than the sta line. If your one-hander is better, then sta might be the way. I don't tank the raids but I dont have any trouble getting agro or keeping it. Saturday's raid had me with my 2 hander in a grp with an inquis and a illusionist. 77 dps mod, 100 haste. I could pull agro auto attacking even if I went afk for the first half of the fight. (auto attack parsed at 900)</P> <P>I'm still experimenting with the intel line. With some haste gear I might ditch it (i want the gauntlets BAD). not sure what else to put 5 points into though. Doubt I'll need the hate from the str line. might put it in to get 25 sta or something more or less useless.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hmm... </P> <P> With 1hander n buckler. i parsed on average 1,200 and that was in a crappy group, with just a templar and a ranger.   With rambo on and right combination of other spells (juggernaut, master spells etc) i hit 1.7k dps in this group with my 1hander and buckler.  Same for when i went down the STR, WIS and STA lines.... but parses were higher ofcourse.  With both setups (sta+wis and Sta+str+wis) the 2hander always performed underpar.. and this is the Jade Inlaid Crescent axe... 53-358 min/max + 106 damage rating +20% haste effect on it (amulet of forsworn overides it @23%) afiak best 2hander in game (vraksakin is truely excellent for spike hits n dps. but not for sustained).  With 2hander dps varies massively, i might see similar results when i use rambo.. i.e. parse 1,200 in that crappy group.  The problem is that the average damage of the 2hander is about 1.9k the average damage of my 1hander is 900-1000 per hit.   Now add 76% double attack and u can see that i can quiet easly match the damage output of 2hander with a decent 1hander.  The velium axe, your right, is utter pants for this, and i expect you will see higher with a fabled 2hander.  I get crit hits on the double attack for 1.9k, highest i think i did the other day of 2.1k!!! (mob was uber debuffed [Removed for Content] epic in labs) and this is the shadowaxe!!! like ranked 4th on highest dps axes afiak.  Highest i have done with the 2hander is 4.3k and it usaually spikes at 2.9k for me.  Annnndddd the weapon based melee procs off urself and ur group members fire of a feeecccckkkkk load more with double attack.</P> <P>If it is as you say a 5% difference that type of margin might be the error... for example (not saying u did or didnt do any of these btw), comparing parses with groups as opposed to single targets, insuring your dps/haste mod remains EXACTLY the same for each test parse, Insuring the mobs are debuffed equally (youll see ur damage fly up as soon as a brig hits dispatch on the mob!), insuring that when u parse u parsed on the same level of adds with the same individual mob types, and that the groups have the same numbers.</P> <P> </P> <P>A good test for ya i recon gonzo is to get a 1hander on par with ur 2hander... difficult to tell ya which if u cant remeber ur 2handers name. Get a group with a Dirge, Coercer, Inq, fury, conj at least, then the last slot can be assasin/SK/monk too for their respective poisonblade proc/Deathmarch!/haste buff.  Conj is great coz of ember seed esp. on groups. Then get them to do all their dps stuff in coordination with yours. Do this with the buckler sta/wis setup and ur one... Do it with a 1hander and 2hander and tell me what ya see...  </P> <P>Im 99% confident that the buckler line is absolulety unbeatable when it comes to dps... perhaps using 2hander for rambo then quickly swaping back to 1h and buckler may add to it... but its tricky and can loose u dps.</P> <P>I have a baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadd feeling SoE will nerf our buckler line... can feel it in my bones tho!!!  So i may only be right until the realese of EoF!!!!!!   </P> <P><3 Buckler Dps</P> <P>Vladnor The Berserk</P> <P>70 Berserker</P> <P>Unity</P> <P>Splitpaw <BR></P>

[Gortesh]

<hr size="2" width="100%">Wargurine wrote:umm, have you actually raided in T7? Because belly smash requires the mob to be knocked down to use it, and epics are immune to almost every knockdown ability, and even if the mob *does* get knocked down, half the time it doesn't do the animation so you would never know it anyways...<hr size="2" width="100%"><div></div>Yes, I have raided T7, and thats what we use Ventrilo or TeamSpeak for my friend/enemy.

[Gortesh]

<div></div><hr size="2" width="100%"><a href="../view_profile?user.id=43531" target="_blank"><span>Laoch69</span></a> wrote:<font color="#66ffff">Of the aa lines that I have tried out, the agility line is definitely the funnest (for me).  Extra aoe attacks, and a chance at doing aoe damage, all the time.  May not be the "best" for end game, this that or the other, but when it comes to fun it is great <img src="../../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16"></font><hr size="2" width="100%"><font color="#66ffff"></font><div></div>I tried out the agility line, the AoE attack is pretty cool but it REALLY screws up raids, if your AEing 30% of the time that means that 30% of the time mezmerised mobs will be woken up, putting the mezzer through alot of trouble. <span>:smileysad:</span>Double attack down the STA line FTW!

[Gonzo550]

<P>I believe I mentioned my tests were done on exactly the same kind of mobs, exactly the same level and everything. Groups were the same and yes, I monitored the dps and haste numbers in insure they stayed the same. I also believe I stated it wasn't with the best one-hander. Just the best I have found. It's true the tests did not involve enough mobs but I feel the variance in the dps was enough to justify it. In my present setup, the two-hander is better. I'm swimming in two-handers right now and would love to see a nice one-hander drop. When that happens, I'll be more willing to try again. </P> <P>Personally, I just can't see myself using a whimpy buckler with such low stats compaired to something like the claymore shield with its proc. </P> <P>And what's the rambo reference?</P><p>Message Edited by Gonzo550 on <span class=date_text>10-25-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:56 PM</span>

[FightGame]

Whimpy?  If holding better aggro and killing faster is whimpy, I guess there's alot of "whimpy" tanks in this game.  And all this time I thought it was cool to hold aggro, and to kill faster.  Then compare to the claymore tower shield, that's real fair.  On the other hand, the claymore shield isn't all that great.  Has a chance to proc when you get hit with SPELL damage...and how often is that?  Only other thing it has going for it, is mitigation which is found on atleast a few other tower shields AND whimpy bucklers!  And when you're at mit cap (soon to be gone- I know) more mit doesn't mean much.  Vulicide's shield > Claymore since it procs on melee damage (which means it actually will proc once in a while).

[Legiax]

<DIV>Mitigation from a shield?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Protection and Mitigation are different things... Protection (which shields give) increases avoidance... tower shields are much better at this than bucklers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Wargurine]

<div><blockquote><hr>Legiax wrote:<div>Mitigation from a shield?</div> <div> </div> <div>Protection and Mitigation are different things... Protection (which shields give) increases avoidance... tower shields are much better at this than bucklers.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>He was specifically comparing the Qeynos Guard (tower shield) to bucklers. And if you had seen the qeynos guard, you whould know it has melee resists on it, (AKA mitigation) and so do some bucklers like the Archaic Buckler. Fightgame is one of the most informed zerkers on these boards and knows what he's talking about, I am sure he knows the difference between protection and mititgation lol <span>:smileywink:</span></div>

[Thor Of Hal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P>Gonzo Wrote:</P> <P>And what's the rambo reference?</P> <P>Message Edited by Gonzo550 on <SPAN class=date_text>10-25-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:56 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Is a 'shorthand' for forums purposes and macro purposes</P> <P>Rambo = Destruction + Open Wounds  [and weapon ageis if ur tanking]</P> <P>Basically because you are like rambo with one machine gun killing an entire army of 'bad guys'.  Jus imagine Slyvester Stalone witha machine gun goin 'ARRRRRHHHHHHGGG!!! DIIIEEEEEE' but replace it with a buckler and 1hander (lol nooot gunna say 2hander till maybe eof comes out!!)</P> <P>Juggernaut is not included mainly because, i reckon, its not used for tanking... If you tell your guild m8s what rambo is and u include juggernaut in it.  If ur Maintank and macro rambo... they gunna think ur casting Juggernaut and [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] at ya! + u can only fit two /usability in macro afiak <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Vladnor The Berserk</P> <P>70 Berserker</P> <P>Unity</P> <P>Splitpaw<BR></P>

[Conjourer]

<P>Just to rerail this thread, I respeced back to Buckler...</P> <P>Sta-4-5-8-8 , Wis - 4-4-8-8</P> <P>I am much happier now...I still have Vilucidaes Tower shield in my inventory, and I have it on the hot bar so I can swap out quick if I need the extra mit (yes mit as the tower shield has 142 vs slashing, crushing, piercing which = 142 mitigation...) and the protection value brings my total avoidance up by about 4% over buckler with 8 in sta defense line. I like the fact that I can dps and tank with one weapon set, and I don't have to switch out if my role in group/raid changes. I like that I can dps on par with a 2hander and still have avoidance which is just 4% less than using a fabled tower shield. I also like that the buckler is sexah and makes me look so dam cool!!!!</P> <P>When EoF is released, I may switch again...</P> <P>When and if I get my hands on a uber 2hander I may switch again...</P> <P>But for the time being, I am quite satisfied with my choice, and I no longer regret the choices I have made...</P> <P>Syrius Silverblade</P> <P>70/50 Berserker</P> <P>Venekor Server</P>

[Hohum]

<DIV>I can see the buckler line getting a great big dirty nerf when they launch EoF.   You only have to read the vitriolic complaints from the Crusaders forum's and post's to know that it's coming. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've respec'ed enough times now to be staring down the barrel of a 13pp respec so will be leaving my buckler line irrespective of the changes as is until everything's settled.  Will then happily use my free respec and go from there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ho</DIV>

[warwizard_!]

I have been a user of the sta/wis line using buckler (archaic buckler) and 1h (Qeynos Kilij) for DPS and 1h (Ascendant) when I MT.  I have tanked every T7 instanced zone except for Chel'Drak without any problems of major aggro-loss OR low dps.  The only complaint I will have is that "IF" the buckler line gets very noticeably nerfed that they would do something about the claymore line reclaim of final reward.  I know that is asking a lot, but think about it.  If I have been using the buckler line since it came out, and it was designed for an addition to a tank's arsenal and the AA line is completely useless without a buckler, then why would I pick the Qeynos Guard?  I would not just ask for this for my class only, I would ask this of any nerf of a line or item(s).  When they nerfed my Shield of the Flapping Wing from over 900 protection down to less than 400, I wasn't to happy.  But I made due and moved on...but if they nerf the entire line, then I will be a little bit screwed, since I don't use or even HAVE any tower shields.I am not going to cry nerf, because I don't have all the information yet and will NOT have any of the official information until the launch of EoF OR I get invited to the beta...but since the invite hasn't come yet, I seriously doubt it will come.  Until then, I leave it all the the SOE gods to make the right/wrong choices and will see what happens then.<div></div>

[jinxedup]

<DIV>LOL-- you must think SOE actually gives a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] about what you want or what you think you deserve, in fact-- their interests are exactly opposite of yours--- keep you playing by denying you what you want for as long as possible in hopes that you will keep "trying" to get something better, like they care wether you "suck it up" and buy a tower shield after nerfing your AA's</DIV>

[arieste]

<DIV>Warwiz, I strongly suggest that you grab yourself a Villu shield in the next couple of weeks.   It's on par (if not better) than the claymore shield.  I say in the next 2 weeks mainly because we have no clue what happens in EoF and while you should be able to tank it easily NOW, you may or may not be able to do same after the changes.  That shield will be great to have around for the mitigation boost too once EoF ups the cap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>cheers.</DIV>

[Khazadd]

<DIV>Where is this Villu Shield from?   Never heard of it.. then again.. i'm just getting into raiding.</DIV>

[arieste]

<DIV>sorry, that's not it's actualy name, its actually called "Villucidae's Fear Guard" or something like that.  Drops VERY often off the Lyceum boss and has absolutely awesome stats.  It's also tradeable, so you can probably buy one (around 30p on my my server when one is available).  </DIV>

[warwizard_!]

<div></div>arieste,Ya..all the tanks in our guild have the Vilu shield except me, since I don't like wasting gear..but I guess I will pick it up in the next raid for 5dkp then.  Only problem with that is that I will have to change over to str line for hate and no more sta line.I will pick it up and just drop it in the bank with my 5dkp draconic deflector.  lol<a target="_blank" href="../view_profile?user.id=9165"><span></span></a><div></div>

[Timzil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gortesh wrote:<BR>Plenty of Zerkers raid tank with bucklers(and Gaurdians too!), if you actually think about it, Gaurdians only out do the Berserker when it comes ot long sustained fights and some boss battles.<BR><BR>I did this with my AA's --> Sta: 4-8-8-1 Wis: 4-8-8-8<BR><BR>The reason being is that the Buckler Reversal skill actually procs more often than it says it does. About once every 20 seconds or so, and while on a raid you dont get hit every second of the fight, plus you already have enough avoidance form others in your group and if you have master stances and buffs, your avoidance is already high enough.<BR><BR>Technically I would triple attack every 20 seconds or so, this helps me hold aggro, along with the AA DPS buff and Double Attack I can actually just taunt once or twice during a fight and just melee the rest of the way rarely using skills.<BR><BR>The Mitigation Debuff from the Wisdom line is incredibly useful for raiding, when its mixed in with dispatch, your talking over 4.5k mitigation knocked off the mob, at 70 with the Belly Smash skill maxed out, it takes off 1575 mitigation, rendering most mages almost naked as well!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>--------------------</P> <P>Dymus wrote:<BR>NPC's have not had mitigation for quite some time.  They have resistances which remain largely the same, but mitigation was removed a long time ago.<BR><BR>NPC hit points do go down in several cases and up in some others which is their form of mitigation.<BR>-------------------</P> <P>^ Dev post in the test feedback forum. BS mit debuff has apparently been BS for a while. <BR></P>

[Dymus]

While mobs do not mitigate damage they can have a mitigation 'score' and just like players mobs can be debuffed into negative values.  Once a mob is at negative mitigation they begin to take extra damage from that damage type.So a debuff is useful, especially once you get a mob below 0.  You get bonus damage at that point.<div></div>

[Conjourer]

<P>Hi everyone,</P> <P>I have been in beta for a very short time. I have done some testing on some of the lines we have currently, and survivablity as a Berserker with less than the best gear out there. My gear is mostly legendary. Wis line defensive Postion which currently adds Mit per point spent in the line goes from the current 3.5ish % with 8 points spent to a rediculously low 1.7% total Absorb with the Diminishing Returns system that is going to be implemented with EoF. I am not positive as to the viablity of 1.7% absorb form 8 AP's to be honest. I was a big believer in Sta 4-5-8-8, Wis 4-4-8-8 before EoF. Now I am seriously wondering about that choice. Losing 1.7% absorb from mit doesn't seem life threatening, nor does losing a couple of % in Avoidance by not taking the defensive position in Sta when you could up your dps astronomically with a Str 4-4-8, Sta 4-4-8, Wis 4-4-8 build. Or if you wanted to go Tower shield and keep dps somewhat primed you could go Str 4-4-8, Agi 4-4-8, Wis 4-4-8 or Str 4-4-8, Wis 4-4-8, Int 4-4-8. The only reason Int is a viable optiont to me now is that haste cap has been increased to 200 instead of the prior 100...</P> <P>None of the defensive positions on any of the exising Warrior Achievements seem even hardly worth the 8 points at this time.</P> <P>Prior to the new system I was at 66% absorbtion self buffed and with temp buffs I could reach the cap of 80% for 30 seconds..after the changes with the exact same gear I am at 53% absorbtion and with temp buffs up I get no where even close to the 75% cap...</P> <P>If in fact the mobs have been tuned down to meet us at our new nerfed point, I still don't see how being able to reach the mit cap self buffed and not being able to meet the cap now is any where in the same neighborhood as being equal...but they have said that the new cap now allows the character to go above the prior cap (the one we have now on live) if the new cap is reached... </P> <P> </P> <P>I will continue to do my testing and report back as to the viablity of these different lines and see what the tests yeild...</P> <P> </P> <P>Syrius Silverblade</P> <P>70/50 Berserker</P> <P>Venekor Sever</P>

[Hardain]

Stat caps atm are way too easy to reach, and raising the cap will make it harder (and i think impossible) to reach caps after EoF, making it more challinging which is allways good thing, unless it goes too hard, which i don't assume it will. And ofcourse as the cap rises, that 320 mit from maxed wis line will give less mitigation %.<div></div>

[Noaani]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Undercova wrote:<BR>And ofcourse as the cap rises, that 320 mit from maxed wis line will give less mitigation %.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Nah, it scales with your level. Otherwise my baby zerker would be like a god-tank atm :smileywink:<BR>

[ChopStix]

<DIV>what i have the biggest problem with is, they wont fix things that need fixing such as quest bugs and the like, camping hq named is absolutely rediculous, but they adjust most things to the point they think its fixed, in turn nerfing the class to un-usefulness  ie. paladins raiding capabilities..... they wont leave anything alone, period...    i might wait to buy the expansion just to see how well other people are fairing with it, and see how it runs for other people..  as of now i could see them spending more time fixing the current gameplay/clases and it benefitting the customers more, but i guess they need some more money...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Vanguard is just around the corner , hmmmm, it might be looking even better...</DIV>

[Conjourer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ChopStix wrote:<BR> <DIV>what i have the biggest problem with is, they wont fix things that need fixing such as quest bugs and the like, camping hq named is absolutely rediculous, but they adjust most things to the point they think its fixed, in turn nerfing the class to un-usefulness  ie. paladins raiding capabilities..... they wont leave anything alone, period...    i might wait to buy the expansion just to see how well other people are fairing with it, and see how it runs for other people..  as of now i could see them spending more time fixing the current gameplay/clases and it benefitting the customers more, but i guess they need some more money...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Vanguard is just around the corner , hmmmm, it might be looking even better...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well lets remember that this whole combat revamp was meant to fix existing game problems, ie the fact that cloth wearers, and even leather wearers were getting one shotted by T7 content. On pvp Cloth wearers were being resisted 80% plus of the time, and not able to mitigate physical damage even 20% which was totally one sided to the Assasins, and rangers that can burst damage the cloth wearers to death with no repurcussion...</P> <P>Paladins are gonna fair very well with the expansion from what I see/hear. With their New APs they can heal as well just about as any healing class. They can hold agro very well with Amends on the right Wiz/War/Rogue....they may not be tanking raid content but their utility isn't diminshed in my eyes...put one in a group as the main healer, and see how well they do...</P> <P> </P> <P>The Devs fix what they see as fixable? I really have no clue to be honest. I know they definately need to address the lack of procing of Berserk...like yesterday, but definately before launch of EoF. Berserk is our class defining ablity, and if it gets nerfed as bad as it is right now on Beta, we are done as a class....end of story.</P> <P>Syrius</P>

[ChopStix]

<P>exactly..  thats what i'm saying..  i've read when eq2 was new that the paladins were the tanks, then they got nerfed to almost un-usefulness in like LU19 or so..</P> <P> at this point being that beserkers are very strong and exceptional tanks i see a nerf incomming..  then what?  guardians going to be the only tanks?  paladins assist only, beserkers just dps? thats the way i see it coming... </P> <P> </P> <P>i also have a lvl70 paladin and a 61 beserker and if this is the way soe is bringing this expansion out, and breaking the fighter class down to the point the roles ares going to be specificly needed...  such as having to have a guardian as a main tank, and a beserker being less effective as a tank basicly breaking a beserker down to dps only, and having a paladin a main assist only...  its going to take diversity out of the class's, which i dont like....</P> <P> </P> <P>as if i picked a wizard wearing cloth armor. in the real world a t-shirt wont stop a knife, i would expect it to be the same in game...  go figure...    why not give the casters a self buff that only procs a certain amount of times in a fight ie. a damage shield, how many movies or books have you seen or read that a wizard has a damage shield of some type, so they could defend themselves? that would seem to make more since than to give them more mitigation.. are they nerfing fusion or lavaball also, if not it needs to be in that case, if not then the wizard and warlocks damage output needs adjustment alot...and everyone knows the assasins and rangers need a nerf for pvp, i think NO class should have any spell that does over 1000 damage on the box checked PVP....  i couldnt believe they left spells with damage ratings as high as 3000-5000 damage under the pvp listing....  Soe's fault and pure stupidity in my opinion..   honestly i see it as developers hurried the release of pvp for more money and did not adjust many class's as needed for pvp, just as my thinking this expansion is going to be hurried for release before christmas season, so its on the shelves for the buying season, so its going to be bugged to  Hades!!!!!!!!!!!!!</P> <P>now in this case the rangers and asassins that have the pvp gear that earned it way to easy in my opinion, with decapitate and sniper shot and the lower tier spells, these people will  have an even bigger advantage because of the pvp gear they already have unless that gear is being nerfed or stripped from them, as i see they did not earn it.. and i'm stating this also, as i have a lvl32 ranger that is locked and has all ranged spells at adept3 and yes one shots are easy on multiple targets to the point its not even fun playing the ranger and i've actually stopped playing him..another thing to be addressed is the monk/bruisers feign death.. those classes that earned fame from training and feigning should be stripped of titles and gear period no if and or buts, completely stupid that soe left these capabilities in the pvp content... again another rush job that i see certain characters were not tested completely or not at all..   ie asassins/rangers/bruiser/monks  these class specific abilities shouldnt have been implemented to the effect that they were/are in pvp.. with all this being said, i think gear and fame be stripped and faction reset on cetain class's.. this being stated try playing a paladin on a pvp server, you will earn a title playing that class, as i dont feel you earn it as an asassin,ranger/ bruiser,monk</P> <P>Message Edited by ChopStix on <SPAN class=date_text>11-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:40 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by ChopStix on <SPAN class=date_text>11-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:42 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by ChopStix on <span class=date_text>11-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:46 PM</span>

[Kromus_1]

<P>One question, im just raiding in DT and it seems that buckler doesnt initiate double attack nowhrere near 76%... It seems to be only about 10-15% ( 2 out of 10 hits) </P> <P>Some ninja nerf here of something?</P>

[Conjourer]

<P>In my extensive testing so far I have not noticed a nerf to double attack, but to be honest I can't parse in Beta because they changed the way damage is writen to the log....I am hoping that the parser folks are working on a fix for this...</P> <P> </P> <P>Syrius</P>

[Conjourer]

<DIV>The thing about Paladins tanking is...well, they tank fine, unless your talking raid content. At that point yes Warriors are the only option, at least currently, though I hear monks/bruisers are tanking raids in Beta and doing fine...kind of scary if you ask me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know Crusaders were sold a bill of goods concerning the fact they were supposed to be good tanks for resist fights, and it never panned out. I am sorry for that, though I had nothing what ever to do with it, but the thing is, Crusaders are very very powerfull for thier utility, if they could tank effectively too, then there would be no need for Warriors. Crusaders are awsome in groups, they can Amends a cloth wearer and save them from all the hate they generate, they can heal themselves and others very well (in the case of paladins) and SKs can steal mit and life from the encounter...add in Feign death on self or others...so much to offer. Now with EoF Paladins will be able to heal as well or slightly less then all healing classes....I don't think they need be a raid tank as an added point to their resume honestly...Heck I even know Paladins that can do 500ish sustained DPS...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2 cps...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Syrius</DIV>

[FightGame]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kromus_1 wrote:<BR> <P>One question, im just raiding in DT and it seems that buckler doesnt initiate double attack nowhrere near 76%... It seems to be only about 10-15% ( 2 out of 10 hits) </P> <P>Some ninja nerf here of something?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is because after the eyes charm you, you lose all your AA abilities.  This is a well known bug and they are supposedly working on it.  Although you don't lose them, or lose 100% of them each time you are charmed, it is quite often.  Easy way for me to check, is because I have the dps mod in the wisdom line.  I hit "P" and my dps mod will say 2 or something and should be about 19.  After you confirm this is what is happening to you, and I'm sure you will, I urge you to bug it as well.</P><p>Message Edited by FightGame on <span class=date_text>11-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:18 AM</span>

[zaratogul]

<P>Any suggestions on going DPS?  I am lv 70, have ironscale/ajer'hoz bucklers with a shadow axe as a 1h/buckler combo, Rak'leklo the Runeblade of Doomflight as a 2h.  Am not the MT or off tank, I do mt in instances often but not a priority.</P> <P>Was thinking Wis 4 4 4 8 8 ish</P> <P>                       Str 4 4 8 (leftover AA)</P> <P>                       Int  4 1</P> <P>Questioin is my guild has a wide range of classes-dirge/troub/corc, etc so capping some of these stats wont be too hard, esp the int part?</P> <P>Secondly, any1 know if we'll get a free respec when EOF comes out (and whether it ONLY pertains to the EOF tree and not the KOS one which I have already maxxed out? Ie., a free respec for both trees or just th EOF one seeing we "already had one or two free respecs when the KOS AA tree came out</P> <P>Thank you all for information in advance!</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by zaratogul on <span class=date_text>11-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:31 AM</span>

[Conjourer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> zaratogul wrote:<BR> <P>Any suggestions on going DPS?  I am lv 70, have ironscale/ajer'hoz bucklers with a shadow axe as a 1h/buckler combo, Rak'leklo the Runeblade of Doomflight as a 2h.  Am not the MT or off tank, I do mt in instances often but not a priority.</P> <P>Was thinking Wis 4 4 4 8 8 ish</P> <P>                       Str 4 4 8 (leftover AA)</P> <P>                       Int  4 1</P> <P>Questioin is my guild has a wide range of classes-dirge/troub/corc, etc so capping some of these stats wont be too hard, esp the int part?</P> <P>Secondly, any1 know if we'll get a free respec when EOF comes out (and whether it ONLY pertains to the EOF tree and not the KOS one which I have already maxxed out? Ie., a free respec for both trees or just th EOF one seeing we "already had one or two free respecs when the KOS AA tree came out</P> <P>Thank you all for information in advance!</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by zaratogul on <SPAN class=date_text>11-06-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:31 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The best DPS set I have found, and I know others here will agree with me is Wis 4-4-8, Str 4-4-8, Sta 4-4-8. Its absolutely awsome dps, but it leaves you incredibly [Removed for Content] tanking wise. The spec I like if you have a great 1hs, and a good buckler is Sta 4-5-8-8-, Wis 4-4-8-8. This allows you to do nice dps, and retain the abiltiy to tank, even Raid mobs, without switching gear. If your gear is so stellar you don't need an extra 3.5% boost in Mitigation (which will be nerfed down to 1.7% when EoF comes out) then go with the three tree approach I suggested above. Or, if you have a nice Tower and you want to go DPS spec where you can switch out to a 2hander/Dual Wield when dpsing, and use tower/1hs for tanking nameds and harder mobs then try out Str 4-4-8, Wis 4-4-8, Int 4-4-8...I did some testing with this spec in Beta....Alot of folks were down on the Int line because they could get to max haste in a good group, but they raised the cap on haste from 100 to 200 now, so I see Int line as being a viable option again. I did some pretty good dps with a Frostaxe and Vilucidaes Tower Shield, and was still able to solo tank without taking tremendous damage.(lost about 15% health in a fight vs two solo ^ mobs in PoA, repeated test against same set of mobs at least 20 times and keep in mind that the proc rate on Self and Group Berserk wasn't working properly at the time). This spec allows to switch out to a good 105 DR 2 hander( or if your extremely lucky to have Vrakskins Claw Club, you can do the best dps there is in game for zerks) or a couple 60 DR DW weapons and get a nice kick in dps.</P> <P>I wish I could parse in Beta, but they broke it by changing the way damage was writen to the log...</P> <P>Just some ideas for ya.</P> <P> </P> <P>Syrius Silverblade</P> <P>70/50 Berserker</P> <P>Venekor</P><p>Message Edited by Conjourer on <span class=date_text>11-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:25 AM</span>

[ChopStix]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Conjourer wrote:<BR> <DIV>The thing about Paladins tanking is...well, they tank fine, unless your talking raid content. At that point yes Warriors are the only option, at least currently, though I hear monks/bruisers are tanking raids in Beta and doing fine...kind of scary if you ask me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know Crusaders were sold a bill of goods concerning the fact they were supposed to be good tanks for resist fights, and it never panned out. I am sorry for that, though I had nothing what ever to do with it, but the thing is, Crusaders are very very powerfull for thier utility, if they could tank effectively too, then there would be no need for Warriors. Crusaders are awsome in groups, they can Amends a cloth wearer and save them from all the hate they generate, they can heal themselves and others very well (in the case of paladins) and SKs can steal mit and life from the encounter...add in Feign death on self or others...so much to offer. Now with EoF Paladins will be able to heal as well or slightly less then all healing classes....I don't think they need be a raid tank as an added point to their resume honestly...Heck I even know Paladins that can do 500ish sustained DPS...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2 cps...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Syrius</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>ok, so we're deprived of MITIGATION and DPS because we can heal!!!!!!!!!!  ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> but we can heal a very small amount, its also NOWHERE ENOUGH in a raid or in a higher level group as the damage is just too great in the upper tier and it makes paladins heals WORTHLESS if you think this, go into halls of fate with a paladin as your healer and dont take a healer with you, i bet you wont do it and live!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! only 2 of the paladins heals are useful, the big self heal, and the emergency heal with a 15 minute reast on it!!!!! this is the raid saving one..</DIV> <DIV> amends on a caster? so i can pull aggro off the main tank which i have done ,just to get killed, or my health knocked down drasticly before the tank got aggro back?.. and if a monk/bruiser is going to be able to tank better than a paladin in plate, i will quit this game and soe will not get anynore of my money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! especially if your a developer!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> yea with the new aa's we get a choice of a very miniscule amount of dps  or our heals  bumped up to where they should probably be in the first place in turn doing nothing to our dps, and are they removing interrupts?...the paladins reduced dps make it so we have to have some kind of heal to just have a chance but our damage output is so low and our power consumption so high, because we arent putting out enough dps in the first place. and if we are healing we're burning power and also doing no damage in the process!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! adding in the fact interrupts when tanking , making heals useless anyway if your tanking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I suggest you play a paladin and see how those heals do before you use that healing statement again!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I have a lvl70 paladin mostly adept3's and masters, and a couple of adept1's and a 61 beserker mostly adept3's and master's, and some adept1's... so i know about both of these classes. I've raided with both....  in a raid setup if you've ever raided, what does a paladin bring to a raid that is absolutely worthwhile and stands out as a necessity</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I have a level 61 beserker in all mastercrafted or legendary gear  that will out dps my lvl 70 paladin that has some fabled gear and some legendary, hands down.. on even conned mobs and this is a serious problem!!!!!!!!!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>added to this the paladin has to have intelligence, so we have to have all stats.. no other class has to have all stats.. that brings the paladins dps down even more..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just my 2 cents..</DIV><p>Message Edited by ChopStix on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:40 PM</span>

[FightGame]

<P>Paladins are right where they should be.  Most are happy with being able to tank all the group content, while still having abilities like healing, providing a raid MT with mit and avoidance, you get amends, a group buff that increases skills, etc.  I think you're better off than a sk, a ranger, and maybe some other classes, so it could be worse.</P> <P>Anyways, this topic, that is in the zerker forums, is about the OP and their idea of the buckler.  Not about how someone thinks their paladin is [Removed for Content].  If you really think your class is busted, this is the wrong place to complain.  Complaining about a class, in another classes forums is only going to be a mess, and will accomplish nothing.</P> <P> </P> <P>Besides, conjuror did say that that was his 2cps.  And this is my 2cps.  So take it as that and leave it.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by FightGame on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:14 PM</span>

[FightGame]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wargurine wrote:<BR>plus the just awesome proc on the Qeynos guard that I swear has more than mearly 5% chance to proc. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Really?  This proc only happens when you receive spell damage, and unless you are fighting a pure caster, which I can't think of any right now, then it seems this proc would rarely even have a chance.  Most people have said the exact opposite of this, that they have received spell damage, (maybe from an occasional AOE? but these may be combat arts - not spells), and it very rarely procs.  Any chance you could post a parse showing this working at all?<BR></P>

[ChopStix]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FightGame wrote:<BR> <P>Paladins are right where they should be.  Most are happy with being able to tank all the group content, while still having abilities like healing, providing a raid MT with mit and avoidance, you get amends, a group buff that increases skills, etc.  I think you're better off than a sk, a ranger, and maybe some other classes, so it could be worse.</P> <P>Anyways, this topic, that is in the zerker forums, is about the OP and their idea of the buckler.  Not about how someone thinks their paladin is [Removed for Content].  If you really think your class is busted, this is the wrong place to complain.  Complaining about a class, in another classes forums is only going to be a mess, and will accomplish nothing.</P> <P> </P> <P>Besides, conjuror did say that that was his 2cps.  And this is my 2cps.  So take it as that and leave it.</P> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by FightGame on <SPAN class=date_text>11-07-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:14 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>i have a lvl 61 beserker and at that point i can say a beserker is way overpowered, and if you think most are happy with the way a paladin is you need to broaden your eq2 experience and read more. i keep up with both class's because i have both class's, therefore i can voice my opinion...</P> <P>this is my 4 cents so take it as that and do what you want with it... </P><p>Message Edited by ChopStix on <span class=date_text>11-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:11 PM</span>

[Wargurine]

<div><blockquote><hr>FightGame wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Wargurine wrote:plus the just awesome proc on the Qeynos guard that I swear has more than mearly 5% chance to proc. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Really?  This proc only happens when you receive spell damage, and unless you are fighting a pure caster, which I can't think of any right now, then it seems this proc would rarely even have a chance.  Most people have said the exact opposite of this, that they have received spell damage, (maybe from an occasional AOE? but these may be combat arts - not spells), and it very rarely procs.  Any chance you could post a parse showing this working at all?</p><hr></blockquote>yeah, I lied, jsut seemed to take less dmg, but was all in my head. I also didn't realize at first that it was from spell dmg only, or I would of picked a different reward heh</div>

[atem]

<DIV>I went 4 4 8 str/sta/int  with Archaic Buckler and Hammer of Ancient Energy,  and I love the dps i put out witht hat combo.....i have also tanked every instance mob in the game and all contested (cept matron and cheldrak) with my buckler spec.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>some may agree with me on the int for haste over the DPS mod  and i know some will disagree but IMO and the things i have tested the haste is much more signicant if you have a slow delay wpn  ...now if you have like a 1.5-2sec delay wpn DPS mod would prolly be better in the long run.</DIV>

[Conjourer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> atemis wrote:<BR> <DIV>I went 4 4 8 str/sta/int  with Archaic Buckler and Hammer of Ancient Energy,  and I love the dps i put out witht hat combo.....i have also tanked every instance mob in the game and all contested (cept matron and cheldrak) with my buckler spec.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>some may agree with me on the int for haste over the DPS mod  and i know some will disagree but IMO and the things i have tested the haste is much more signicant if you have a slow delay wpn  ...now if you have like a 1.5-2sec delay wpn DPS mod would prolly be better in the long run.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Regardless of if I agreed with you before or not, I agree with you now that the Int Line is now a reasonable choice, they are changing the cap from 100 to 200 so you need all the haste you can get....100 haste was relatively easy to attain, but 200, not so much...</P> <P> </P> <P>Syrius</P>

[FightGame]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Conjourer wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Regardless of if I agreed with you before or not, I agree with you now that the Int Line is now a reasonable choice, they are changing the cap from 100 to 200 so you need all the haste you can get....100 haste was relatively easy to attain, but 200, not so much...</BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Syrius</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>But keep in mind that haste and dps also has diminishing returns.  It was said that 200% haste (or DPS) will end up equalling 125% REAL (as we know it today).  In other words, if you have a 4 sec delay weapon today, with 100% haste, then you will strike every 2 seconds.  After EoF release, if you will need about 150% haste to strike every 2 seconds.  Really stupid, I know, and hopefully the change it, or atleast have it display what it really is.  I don't know why they want to make it more complicated than it is.  They said a displayed 200% haste will equal 125% that is actually applied.  So if you have anything less than 200%, and you want to know what your REAL applied haste is, you'll have to perform a math equation, and even then it will still just be a guess, because I don't think they will release the actual equation on how diminishing returns work.</P>

[Conjourer]

<P>Just type /weaponstat and it will tell you what your actuall Weapon Dly is...</P> <P> </P> <P>Syrius</P>

[TheKons]

I was thinking of ditching the buckler too, but just because i'm tired of having that as my only option.  I was thinking of going Str 4,4,6 Wis 4,4,5,8 Int 4,4,6. What do you guys think of that build? That extra point in dps mod could go into crits or haste also.<div></div>

[aias]

You may want to wait until EOF and make that determination.  The mitigation increase in the WIS line may be worthless after the new combat changes.

[Conjourer]

<P>If your mitigation from gear is above 3.5kish, the mit from Wis line with 8 points gives a total of 1.7% total Absorb... Is it worthless? Well, it is if your raid geared and for the same 8 points you could have a ton more dps in the form of dps mods, crit mods, haste and the like...</P> <P>If your gear isn't so great, you might see the need to have that extra 1.7% total absorb just to survive a big fight. No one can make these decisions for you. To be totally honest, my mit is borderline...I found that with a tower sheild (fabled Vilucidaes Guard) and my current gear, I could well exceed my current buckler spec on mit and avoidance, and with Str 4-4-8, Wis 4-4-8-1, Int 4-4-8 I could get similar numbers on my dpsing, and I was a better tank, so long as the mobs were infront of me. The only issue was my 360 degree avoidance was hurt a little with this build, as Sta AP line gives a boost to avoidance. I don't think its that bad of an issue though, and I am strongly leaning towards this build now as I am seeing some neat new weapons to play with both in Dual Wield and 2 handers that I might be able to tweak into better dpsing on raids (where I main tank rarely, and off tank some), and still be a good tank with the tower and fabled Frostwrath.</P> <P>Syrius</P>