Zerk or Guard?

[Riny]

<div></div>Hi,  I've been thinking about starting a tank class. Currently I play a monk and I'm having a good time. But I find that when I'm in a tanking situation I'm not doing as well as I'd like. I'd like to fool around with zerks or guards. Can someone please tell me the difference b/w these two? If you could frame your answers within the level ranges of 10 thru 40 that would be great. I'm not interested in end-game analysis. Oh, this would be on a PvP server.Some comparison aspects I'm interested in: - Taunts - DPS - Area Effect- Solo-ability Thanks,-Riny<div></div><p>Message Edited by Riny on <span class=date_text>09-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:00 PM</span>

[MajiinX]

<DIV>Well the difference between a guardian and zerker from 1-40 isnt as major as it is from 50-70. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For taunts I think they get one more taunt then us, their reactive bumps them up a threat position for a limited time while ours is a counter attack with threat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DPS is where our big edge comes in, we have a strength buff and a group zerking buff that increases dps and haste. Plus we can also duel wield. Of course 50+ is where we get the real dps edge with rampage and open wounds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aoe we have 3, an encounter aoe w/ stun, PBaoe with knockdown and a frontal aoe. I think guardians just have a pbaoe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We probly have the edge in soloing too as we have the same mit as them with more dps. I know personally when i fight guardians in pvp its a pretty easy fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mulethree]

<DIV>The guardian gets group buffs that increase combat skills, defense and  HP - his group should be able to hit and dodge yellow opponents better</DIV> <DIV>The zerker's Group buffs are Zerk (DPS and Haste proc), STR  and HP Regen - his group should put out more damage - if the opponent isn't too </DIV> <DIV>yellow.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians have a self Stamina buff while the zerker has self-zerk (proc haste and dps bonus) and self-hp-regen proc - the self-zerk proc doesn't stack right with the group version so it only adds a little extra damage. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The guardian will start with more HP due to his HP and stamina buffs, the Zerker has 2 regeneration buffs, will take 40 seconds or so to regen as many HP as the Guardian had extra to start with.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The zerker will get Insolent Gibe which is a true (blue) AE taunt that procs more taunt when you get hit.  But thats in the 50's</DIV> <DIV>The guardian gets an equally cool taunt but not useful for AE multi-encounter stuff but can get you up the hate list fast - like after you die and want to be next in hate if the tank who took over should die. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They both have group mitigation buffs - like 30seconds with 60 second recast - Guardians is better against slash/pierce while zerkers is better against crush. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They have the same AA skill choices</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Zerker gets an encounter (Green AE) attack that hits and stuns the whole encounter - I don't think Guardians have an equivilent. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They both have shield attacks that are quite strong - they make up almost half the DPS that you would lose using a 1-hand weapon versus a 2-hander.  If the enemy is using melee attacks you will live almost twice as long by having the shield out.  If they are magic users the shield-bash is an extra interruption. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The guardian has a few short buffs that block damage - the Zerker equivilents are like AE Counterattacks - they add to DPS rather than preventing incoming damage. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But what the heck - try both - You'll be level 15 in no time and have the whole basic spell lineup. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Riny]

Thanks to both responders. You've given me some good info. Hopefully others will find it usefull too. I'm going to start by rolling a Zerk and seeing how that goes. Like you said, can always switch to Guard it the style is not to my liking. Thanks again for the input.-Riny<div></div>

[kagge]

I went 0-70 as zerk then betrayed to guard. <ul> <li>Guard DPS is a lot worse than Zerk. And I mean a lot. To give you an example: Boxing Zerk-Wiz could do the first 3 nameds in Nest (that is pure dps, no heals). Guard-Wiz can do 1st only .... and I know a wiz can solo them. </li> <li>Regen of Zerk is often underestimated. For soloing it rocks. </li> <li>Zerk get aggro from hitting stuff, Guards get aggro from being hit. As zerker, I could hardly ever use defensive stance, everytime i used it, i lost aggro to a monk or a dps class. As guard, thats not an issue, as guard dps come from CA anyways, I stick to defensive stance. Plus if some monk fogot to turn off his hate buff, I just "moderate" him. Guard anti-aggro spells are very good. </li> <li>Generally they say that, guard owns single target fights, and zerk own group target fights. Thats not exactly true, as guard, just tell your group to let the stuff hit you for 5s before starting AE, and the bunch of mobs wont leave you. </li> <li>Guard get Tower of Stone - the spell that makes them raid tank #1. </li> </ul> /kagg <div></div>

[Dej]

Very interesting post thanks for all the info.  I came here looking for exactly this<div></div>

[Zaknafiend]

Was going to start a thread but think this is close enough to get me answers. I am looking for opinions from a PvE standpoint. I am trying to choose between Zerk and Guard. My main goal is to be the tank, weather it's group or raid. Can a zerker do this? Will a zerker get the chance to do this? I like the zerker better but will suffer through the guards dismal dps levels (well until sta AA line makes it better) if that's what I have to do to be a raid tank. Thanks for your opinions <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[zormik]

<P>I am a zerk raid MT and well we rock :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Aggrowise we have it a lot easier then guardians.  With my dps and some hatebuffs i easily hold aggro.  A guardians struggles more when it comes to aoe fights...</P> <P>A guardian has a SMALL defensive edge and that small edge can save you from a raidwipe sometimes.  They have TOS we have VOM. tos is more effective since they can use it even when full hp.  Vom will only pop on your deathstrike and will bring you alive very fast (you'll need the M1 version to notice a difference in raiding).  It has saved me on a lot of occasions already but it's subpar to TOS.  Tos is a great tool.  On top of that a guardian will have an easier time from saving other people. Still i consider the defensive edge of a guardian small and not big enough to justify them being the sole raid MT...<BR>To give you an example.  A zerk MT with more mitigation will always be better then a guardian MT with less mitigation. When the mitigation and the ca's are all mastered out and the playerskill is very good well then you can use both.  On groups use the zerk.  On mobs with huge spikedps you can use the guardian.  But both can MT any mob in this game...</P> <P>I can go more into the detail but i'm gonna leave it with this :smileytongue:</P> <P>So to summarize:</P> <P>Zerk: great offensive edge, great edge when it comes to aggrogeneration, better to solo then a guardian.  People also think for xp grinding a zerk is better then a guardian since he has offensive buffs and he kills faster too. More flexible since he can fit in different roles (MT, MA, dps).  Has less defensive tools then the guardian to throw up in a pinch...</P> <P>Guardian: best defensive tank in the game and he gives up a lot for getting that small edge.  Don't misunderstand me, a guardian is a great class and a VERY good tank. but he only got a small edge when it comes to raiding. And there the edge is not so great with a berserker neither. In general though people will prefer a guardian to MT raids.  Allthough i've seen a lot of guilds prefering their zerkers too since they are better with aggrogeneration.</P> <P>Let's just conclude that they both are the best tanks in the game and that they just have a different approach to the tanking...</P><p>Message Edited by zormik on <span class=date_text>10-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:09 PM</span>

[steveatk]

<P>You are asking specifically for a pvp server so I'll answer in that context (otherwise Zorm and I will severely hijack this thread if we get onto raiding hehe :p)</P> <P>Solowise, both can take a beating. You are generally talking about short fights with spiky damage and the Guardian is best suited for that situation for survival. The Guardian has some high damage skills but not until end game so his potential for killing people solo it not that great. Even with double attack and buckler reversal the damage isn't fantastic unless he can self buff haste and dps - which is something that Zerkers can do via skills so they have the advantage on dps. Zerkers can take almost the same amount of damage, not so good with the spiky damage but they can take a beating and smile back at you just like the Guardian but have a lot more potential for dps nearer end game levels so they are the better choice for solo.</P> <P>For grouping, a Guardian is a major pain in the behind. If he taunts you, you will have a hard time pulling away from him. He has lots of taunts and a kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] reactive taunt that will glue you to the Guardian whilst his team mates are killing your healers and dpsers. Guardians can also protect their group mates with intercepts and save them from a death blow (changing the attackers target to the Guardian in the process). The reactive taunts will proc from these intercepts too, I'm not sure how effective they are in pvp but potentially he is going to really screw up your attempts at targetting his group mates. The Guardian in my opinion is by far the best pvp group tank for those reasons.</P> <P>Zerkers have really nice aoe dps and can put out a lot of pain when their buffs are up if they can get close to several of your group members if they are not careful but are easier to break away from, allowing you to target his healer or dpsers. Both warriors have stuns and the Zerker has an AOE knockback.</P> <P>They can both tank everything in the game in PVE terms just with different flavours. In pvp the zerker is better for solo and although both are great for group action the guardian is better there in terms of enabling his group to live and kill the enemy, zerker is better at making the enemies die faster but doesn't protect his group as well.</P> <P>I hope this helps</P>

[zormik]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> steveatk wrote:<BR> <P>You are asking specifically for a pvp server so I'll answer in that context (otherwise Zorm and I will severely hijack this thread if we get onto raiding hehe :p)</P> <P>Solowise, both can take a beating. You are generally talking about short fights with spiky damage and the Guardian is best suited for that situation for survival. The Guardian has some high damage skills but not until end game so his potential for killing people solo it not that great. Even with double attack and buckler reversal the damage isn't fantastic unless he can self buff haste and dps - which is something that Zerkers can do via skills so they have the advantage on dps. Zerkers can take almost the same amount of damage, not so good with the spiky damage but they can take a beating and smile back at you just like the Guardian but have a lot more potential for dps nearer end game levels so they are the better choice for solo.</P> <P>For grouping, a Guardian is a major pain in the behind. If he taunts you, you will have a hard time pulling away from him. He has lots of taunts and a kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] reactive taunt that will glue you to the Guardian whilst his team mates are killing your healers and dpsers. Guardians can also protect their group mates with intercepts and save them from a death blow (changing the attackers target to the Guardian in the process). The reactive taunts will proc from these intercepts too, I'm not sure how effective they are in pvp but potentially he is going to really screw up your attempts at targetting his group mates. The Guardian in my opinion is by far the best pvp group tank for those reasons.</P> <P>Zerkers have really nice aoe dps and can put out a lot of pain when their buffs are up if they can get close to several of your group members if they are not careful but are easier to break away from, allowing you to target his healer or dpsers. Both warriors have stuns and the Zerker has an AOE knockback.</P> <P>They can both tank everything in the game in PVE terms just with different flavours. In pvp the zerker is better for solo and although both are great for group action the guardian is better there in terms of enabling his group to live and kill the enemy, zerker is better at making the enemies die faster but doesn't protect his group as well.</P> <P>I hope this helps</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Hehe,</P> <P>I missed the part about the pvpserver :smileysurprised:</P> <P>Anyway, i agree with every part you wrote.</P> <P>In pve the zerker will have an edge in aggro (in most cases) but i don't know how that is in pvp so i'll leave it to your judgement :smileywink:</P> <P>Anyway, to conclude they both are top of the line classes so you can't really go wrong.</P> <P>Something to realise as well is that a zerker and a guardian are very similar upto lvl 50. The main difference is the buffs of a zerker lean towards offense and for a guard more towards defense.  A zerk is also a bit more aoe orientated but for the rest they are pretty much the same lvl 50-.</P> <P>At lvl 50+ the difference start to become bigger because a lot of classes get there big defining skills at lvl 50+ (ancient skills in T6). For a zerk it's a HUGE difference.  He gets a huge dpsboost with rampage/destruction, open wounds.  And prolly the best taunt in the game with insolent gibe.  The guardian goes into the direction of taking spikedps, taking damage for other people, and having the possibility to  snap back aggro, no matter what, once every 3 minutes in no time at all...</P> <P>So if you want to be a strong tank that can dish it out i'd say zerker for sure.<BR>If you prefer to be a tank that stands like a brick wall while keeping everybody safe i'd say guardian...<BR></P> <P> </P>

[Riny]

I appreciate the time people have taken to post replies. I'm having a great time so far with my zerk even tho he's still pretty low. Mostly experiencing single target encounters at this stage, as my AOE arts have not yet materialized (I think I have just one right now). About to venture out into Ant for the first time to pop his cherry with the pie lady in the Frontiersman cabin. Looking forward to those first PvP experiences with this toon. Once again, thanks for the viewpoints. -Riny <div></div>