Buckler Reversal - Every 30 seconds proc or Not?

[Thor Of Hal]

<DIV>I am concerned over this aa abillity. With this ability when u have a buckler equiped,  for every parry/miss/block you do or your enemy does you stand a chance to do xxx - xxxx damage depending on the AA investment. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some say it proc everytime you parry/dodge/miss some jus say it procs on parry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have spent 3 hours on numerous occasions testing this out on mobs.  My lastest attempt was in Nest, where the spam mobs spawn to attack the owls in the first room.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Method:</DIV> <DIV>-Strip all your reactive gear off, anything that may spark a counterattack or proc this includes weapons, i used an adamantine dragon fang for this. </DIV> <DIV>-Equip your buckler</DIV> <DIV>-Get a combat tab up-  Disable all damage/heal message appart from the damage YOU do to the mob and it does to you.  This will give you the 'You hit the mob but the mob parrys/blocks/miss' messages or the other way around. As well as 'You counterattack with buckler reversal' message</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now after 3 hours on this tab whilst timing.  The Buckler Reversal would proc at the start of the fight and then proc again almost exactly 30 seconds after... as it appears to say in the ability description.  During that 30 seconds all dodge/miss/parry messages both from mob and myself did not result in a Buckler Reversal Proc.  I.e. i didnt see it come up with a highlighted damage (which in non autoattack damage) and it did not say You counter attack with Buckler Reversal etc etc. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From this you could conclude that is only procs every 30 seconds.  Which is not worth 8 aa points imo.  I believe that would be better spent in the dps aa line to give you 20% dps meaning u get 20% extra damage ALL the time from your weapons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, I have friends say that in the parcers it procs.. upto 18 times in 35 seconds! Was one quote,  This i havnt tested yet.   I will within the next day or two (need to use another computer).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HOWEVER, It did appear to proc on OTHER mobs within the encounter.  But again it followed the 30 second rule, and didnt do this too often.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What have ppl found on this?  Is it just a bug with the combat tab... or is it a bug with the Ability?  Imo 400-800 ish damage EVERY parry/dodge/block from mob or yourself means you constantly spam proc this ability... which i just dont see.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vladnor the Berserk</DIV> <DIV>70 Berserker</DIV> <DIV>Unity</DIV> <DIV>Splitpaw</DIV>

[Triste-Lune]

it s say the ability refresh every 30 sec. It s like intercede. i hope your not thinking it s bugged to have the BR proc only every 30sec. If this was to proc on every single parry dodge miss it would be insane. it would be completely ridiculously overpower and would increase DPS by something like 500~800 wich is just ridiculous.

[Thor Of Hal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Triste-Lune wrote:<BR>it s say the ability refresh every 30 sec. It s like intercede. i hope your not thinking it s bugged to have the BR proc only every 30sec. If this was to proc on every single parry dodge miss it would be insane. it would be completely ridiculously overpower and would increase DPS by something like 500~800 wich is just ridiculous.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>no im not, im trying to establish whether or not it infact only procs once every 30 seconds... Or if it procs on say every parry, or dodge, or miss or both etc.</P> <P>if it is only every 30 seconds its not worth the 4 extra aa points as i have said. </P><p>Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on <span class=date_text>09-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:55 AM</span>

[swordfel]

it does in fact proc only once every 30 seconds. read the description a bit more carefully, it states it quite clearly. if it did in fact proc whenever you missed or whatever, tanking zerkers would probably be the best dpsers in the game :p<div></div>

[SlapnutsGT]

Ya it is every 30 sec. they just recently fixed this cause a few months ago, I even posted [Removed for Content], it would proc every single dodge/parry/deflect which made it awesome! haha but, its fixed now and only every 30 sec it seems<div></div>

[arieste]

you mean its a waste to put 8 points into it rather than 4?  You would be correct.putting 4 points into it isnt a waste, since its required for our best damage AA...<div></div>

[FightGame]

<P>it has a chance to proc once every 30 seconds....doesn't mean it WILL proc (although chances are very good), and doesn't mean it will be exactly 30 seconds each time.  Assuming you are dodging atleast 1 attack within every 30 second span, it may sometimes proc twice in a 2 second period, and sometimes proc twice in a 59 second period.</P> <P> </P> <P>But I have heard others saying things similar to what OP said about it hitting more often, like 18 times in a 35 second period.  This is either bugged, or maybe it's set up to proc one time every 30 seconds FOR EACH MOB.  So if you have a pile of mobs on you, it might proc more...just guessing here.  Or maybe once the mob dies that you have targeted, it refreshes at that point (not counting down the remainder of the 30 seconds to start again), so again, if you have a pile of mobs on you, it may proc more.</P><p>Message Edited by FightGame on <span class=date_text>09-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:58 PM</span>

[Thor Of Hal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> arieste wrote:<BR>you mean its a waste to put 8 points into it rather than 4?  You would be correct.<BR><BR>putting 4 points into it isnt a waste, since its required for our best damage AA...<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Arieste, thats what i meant, i never said putting only 4 into it was a waste.  It was merely a waste if you put 8 into it when it does infact only proc every 30seconds.  I argued that would better be spent in the DPS wis line.  Imo every tank should have the buckler double attack line.. its still uber!! Or perhaps the 4 extra aa pts should be invested in sta, if your not normally capped in sta.   (bah guardians get a sta buff! <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> + hp lucky devils <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</P> <P>Thanks for the feedback guys.  Watch this space for results from parser, still want to see if it procs or not for sure <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Pll are ofc. still welcome to post any their parse results.</P> <P>Thanks</P> <P> </P> <P>Vladnor The Berserk</P> <P>lvl 70 Berserker</P> <P>Unity</P> <P>Splitpaw</P><p>Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on <span class=date_text>09-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:01 PM</span>

[Thor Of Hal]

<P>Just to confirm.. im 95% sure it was fixed and it does only proc on a dodge,parry,miss etc and then recharge for 30seconds before procing again...</P> <P>Closure got <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Thanks</P> <P>Vladnor The Berserk</P> <P>70 Berserker</P> <P>Splitpaw</P>

[Legiax]

<DIV>Must say, the buckler line really isn't all its cracked up to be =/</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank god i dont use it <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[FightGame]

<DIV>~20% more overall damage using a buckler is worth losing 3-4% of avoidance.  Even more so since avoidance is kinda broke right now.  Adding or subtracting 3-4% avoidance will make very very little difference in groups, and in raids fighting higher level mobs will make no difference at all.  You hold aggro better than strnegth line with max crits and max hate gain.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, yes the buckler is all it's cracked up to be.  lol.  If it wasn't, then why do most zerks/guards use it.</DIV>

[Wargurine]

I can't imagine any raid tanking guardian using buckler line. They wouldn't be able to use ToS then w/o swapping in a new shield all the time and thats thier main advantage over a zerker.<div></div>

[Legiax]

<P>no thanks, i'll take the parry bonus and mitigation bonus from other lines and still put out more dps, thanks. Double attack is v nice, but with capped haste and a fabled 2 hander i still out dps people using the STA line and can tank just as good.</P> <P>Its all down to personal preference in the end.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[tvies]

<P>that fabled 2H do 150% more damage then a fabled 1H?  LOL!</P> <P>Because it would have to in order to match STA line.  You must be grouping with n00bs or your MT and they are riding shotgun (remember we get a lot of DPS from being hit, we are zerkers!)<BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Legiax wrote:<BR> <P>no thanks, i'll take the parry bonus and mitigation bonus from other lines and still put out more dps, thanks. Double attack is v nice, but with capped haste and a fabled 2 hander i still out dps people using the STA line and can tank just as good.</P> <P>Its all down to personal preference in the end.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Message Edited by tvieson on <SPAN class=date_text>10-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:02 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by tvieson on <SPAN class=date_text>10-17-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:03 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by tvieson on <span class=date_text>10-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:08 AM</span>

[Thor Of Hal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Legiax wrote:<BR> <P>no thanks, i'll take the parry bonus and mitigation bonus from other lines and still put out more dps, thanks. Double attack is v nice, but with capped haste and a fabled 2 hander i still out dps people using the STA line and can tank just as good.</P> <P>Its all down to personal preference in the end</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Aye parry is nicest bonus for avoidance, and mitigation speaks for itself.   So based on this buckler double attack is uber for these reasons:</P> <P><STRONG>1.</STRONG>  <STRONG>Hit rate</STRONG> on high level mobs will increase esp. level 75, chel, matron, tari. </P> <P>- Ofc. this is assuming ur slash/piercing/crush skills remain the same. </P> <P><STRONG>2.</STRONG> <STRONG>Proc rate </STRONG>of Buffs + weapon procs will improve substantially</P> <P>- Dirge CoB will proc ALOT more, you will end ur Rambo in a maelstrum of procs with double attack. </P> <P>- Your procs that are based on melee, for eg. Berserk and on ur weapon's proc will fire more too.</P> <P><STRONG>3.</STRONG> <STRONG>Overall dps</STRONG> with 1h + shield will increase massively</P> <P>- And 1 threat = 1damage + the hate gain u get. </P> <P><STRONG>4. Fighter Tank Mantra</STRONG> = Threat -> Mitigation -> HP -> Avoidance -> Stats/Resists</P> <P>- Remeber us zerkers are setup to generate our THREAT from DPS, this is why we can parse so high, and have abilitys like Destruction and Open Wounds.  Guardians = less reliant on buckler double attack, they have greater array of taunts/ direct agro maintaince abilities.   </P> <P>   <BR>Vladnor The Berserk</P> <P>70 Berserker</P> <P>Unity</P> <P>Splitpaw</P>

[Nembutal]

<div><blockquote><hr>Legiax wrote:<div></div> <p>no thanks, i'll take the parry bonus and mitigation bonus from other lines and still put out more dps, thanks. Double attack is v nice, but with capped haste and a fabled 2 hander i still out dps people using the STA line and can tank just as good.</p> <p>Its all down to personal preference in the end.</p> <hr></blockquote>I have capped haste also and have not spend a single AA in INT line... it's called buffs... haste is a common buff plus we proc it alot... and we have FBSS or better as gear.There is no way that a 2 hander using zerker at lvl 70 with 50 AA's could out DPS a STA/WIS AA line Zerker using similar grade gear... it's mathmatically impossible.  The combat engine is based on math... not personal desires or coolness factors.I can out DPS everyone in my guild on almost every named we kill... IF... and I repeat IF... I am not asked to be main tank.... and I don't mind dying.  (Juggernaught is great way to die.)  We are talking ANY CLASS in the game in similar gear... many better gear than me.. with similar or more AAs than me.It just requires me being in the correct group for the buffs (pretty common) and me triggering both "rampages" and juggernaught at the same time.  My main issue is that I will surely grab aggro almost every time I do this because our aggro abilities are all for BUILDING it not REMOVING it like say assassins have.... so even without taunting I will suck aggro off anyone... including a fellow zerker using a buckler in rampage (because he can't use juggernaught while tanking)I used to be anti-buckler myself... because I figured I was either tanking or DPSing... never both at once... but after parsing myself with dual wield, 2-hander, and 1 hander... and switching my AA's around 3 times... well... the parse doesn't lie.  1 hander w/STA line is the best DPS and the impact on your ability to tank is minimal compared to using 1 hander and tower shield... and beats 2 hander or dual wield styles hands down on tanking.</div>

[Thor Of Hal]

<P>/ agree w/ nemb.</P> <P> </P> <P>Well after a chel raid, we decided to do a labs run... the ppl in my guild wanted it to go fast so i thought id speed tank... and go all out dps----</P> <P>I tanked with Legplates of the Underworld (tier 5 dps greaves) and in offensive mode AND used juggernaut in labs.  Was awsome! Topped the parses alot and if not was in top 2 or 3. GREAT FUN! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   But ya gotta have ur healers switched on + make sure u macro ahead so ur shaman can ward u <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>But from time to time i still top dps charts even in all out defensive, esp. if i use rambo (destruction + openwounds).  But remeber ur group members help alot.  For example a dirge's CoB, coercers dps mode, Fury's Agitate, Conj. Emberseed. assasin's poison blade... etc etc.  The only way to inc dps (pre eof) after you have capped haste and dps is via procs <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> esp. those associated with melee <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Vladnor The Berserk</P> <P>70 Berserker</P> <P>Unity </P> <P>Splitpaw</P>

[Legiax]

Every point here is based on one thing... Raiding. Fair play. Tanking a raid, i would use a shield, do i tank raids? No... got an awesome guardian for that. Do i MA? Yes... with a 2 hander.PvP: The damage i put out from a 2hander at 46 is vastly greater than double attack. Like it or not, its true.Tanking Trash Mobs / Named: If your in a group where you cant use a 2hander, go re-think your group setup. With a 2 hander i can tank an epic x2 1-2 levels below me with ease and only have 2 people with me. NB's in RV, Gale Epic in EF, Dreadwake, the NB contested in EL etc. On my 62 zerk its the same story. Ignore the math, ignore the stats for 1 second. Choose real life examples, for raiding a shield wins hands down purely for the fact of added resists most of the time and the % block chance. The issue people have here on all aspects of this forum, its FOTM and not being able to think on an indivdual basis. "OOO Brigand Rox in pvp... /roll brigand".All in all, you use STA and are good at your job? great. Well so am I. So /cheer world is happy.

[Wargurine]

Its not a FOTM thing man, its purely what works best. If you had at least 16 AA to max double attack, and had a 1her that was comparable to your two hander in quality, then there is no way your 2her would out dps the buckler line. It has been tested out the wazoo, and beat into the ground. I'm not saying that you personally have to switch to sta line, use whatever makes you happy and that you want to use. BUT, don't come spreading false info and trying to start arguments. If you want to see arguments about 2h vs buckler vs dw go back a few pages and there will be plenty.<div></div>

[Legiax]

I was around when the AA's first went to Beta... and since then i've stood on the principal of everything i've said above. I've seen all the threads, all of the stat comparisons. Like or not, my 2hander in PvP as mentioned above does better. However, as also mentioned, if your doing your job great with either line then good for you.

[Johnny29]

<DIV> <DIV>Leg-Enrage has an alt in my guild and I personally think he is crazy!!! I have a Gnome Beserker with 19 aa pts: Max out doubkle attack/buckler reversal on Venekor and people send me tells all the time who say I do sick dmg!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Though I must admit Enrage is one of the smarter players I have ever meet. Truely a blessing in my guild. PvP is a little different and he is one who thinks outside the box instead of play follow the leader. So maybe this is all bird poo but maybe he might figure out something new and alternative for the masses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Has anyone tried his theory out? on the pvp server? Maybe when he gets higher he will change his mind and maybe he wont</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I for one love my gnome and his buckler more than any of you will ever know. I stare at him sometimes for hrs with the biggest grin on my face. He is half way to 70! I cant wait!?</DIV></DIV>