Issue: Zerkers that are Raidtanks

[Vindorus]

First I want to introduce myself, I´m Vindeth from the Valor Server and I play a lvl 70 Berserker in a... well you could call it "Funguild" that loves doing raids.  Our usual MT on raids is a 70 well-equipped guardian who is doing a good job. I really enjoy to tank on raids, too,  and so I noticed a lot of things I´d like to say here where some devs may read the forums.The main problem is that we have some great spells to get aggro with damage but not a single HP-Buff, Tower of Stones, Sta-Buff or something like that.... If I hadn´t so much masterspells I would immediately betray and start a new life as a guard..with maaaany App I Spells <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.What shall I do to push my Hps a good way? What shall I do when I get down to 10% HP during a Raid? Praying is a good idea atm!greetings from germany..<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (I excuse for my english...) <div></div>

[Henladar Bloodheart ~]

<DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Henladar Bloodheart ~ on <span class=date_text>09-19-2006</span> <span class=time_text>04:22 AM</span>

[aias]

mitigation > hp

[Khal]

Totally wrong Kosmetas..mitigation > EVERYTHING

[aias]

hehe...  agree :smileyhappy:

[Vindorus]

<div></div>Mitigation isn´t a problem..there are enough items and a great AA-line to get a very good mitigation. Also guards and zerkers have the same miti-shortbuffs...Wall of Ferocity - Wall of Force...Mayhem - Command. On M1 they have the same effect. Maybe a patch could bring some changes: Instead of Juggernaut (I call it Jokernaut) they could give us a little sta/hp buff..tower of stones...ANYTHING! We are plate tanks with taunts, miti-buffs and stuff...you know? And so I´m sorry, but that´s a pretty bad joke. I know there is another thread for that topic and that´s why i won´t argue about that. I just wanted to give you an example what SOE could to. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Vindorus on <span class=date_text>06-30-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:33 AM</span>

[Olek'S]

HP gap for zerker tanks can be closed with right group setup. You can usually get away with not having scout agro transfer(guardian can't).and I dont think guardians use ToS as much as u think they do.<div></div>

[Bremer]

<P>Don't know the word, but "Hp werden überbewertet :smileytongue: "</P> <P>Even if a Guardian has 1k more hp, it's no problem on raids.</P>

[Vindorus]

Well, if our guard uses ToS he always says that. <div></div>

[KhayosAD]

<P>Zerks get mit buffs, Guards get HP buffs.  Each has to compensate with equipment.</P> <P>Just posted on another thread -- I routinely cap out mitigation in raid situations, though my HP is about 1k lower than our guild's Guardian MT.  He does alot better on single encounters holding aggro (and soaking up some nasty hits), whereas I can get to the top 5 in DPS in group encounters.</P>

[Khal]

Guardians get the same mit buffs that we do. The difference in the 2 is that our 2 Regen buffs, are stamina and hp buffs for the guardian. We are gonna have lower hps. Does it matter? Maybe a tiny bit. But berserkers have been main tanks in many of the worlds top raiding guilds. Guardians will have more hps, more taunts and a few specialized abilities for tanking like tower of stone and such. Berserkers do alot more dps, can step out of MT role and become a DPS along with a dps group buffer.

[Lexan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Khalad wrote:<BR>Guardians get the same mit buffs that we do. <BR><BR>The difference in the 2 is that our 2 Regen buffs, are stamina and hp buffs for the guardian. <BR><BR><BR>We are gonna have lower hps. Does it matter? Maybe a tiny bit. But berserkers have been main tanks in many of the worlds top raiding guilds. <BR><BR><BR>Guardians will have more hps, more taunts and a few specialized abilities for tanking like tower of stone and such. Berserkers do alot more dps, can step out of MT role and become a DPS along with a dps group buffer.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I thought our tuants were basically the same diffrences i know of are....</P> <P>We get bezerk buffs and str they get sta/hp/def.... only other obvious diffrences are in the specialized skills the lvl 52, 55, 58, 65 spells.  I completley love insolent gibe, openwounds,  dont think id change either of them for anything.  But there specialized skills are really really nice aswell.  There is basically a very minimal diffrence in the 2 classes if you cant tank as a zerker you wont be able to tank as a guardian either.</P> <P>Imo we have  slight edge on multiple mob agro (ie insolent, openwounds) and dmg output.  They have a slight edge on incoming dmg (ie TOS).  Both agro systems seem to work well they have a better chance for hold the line ca skill line to fire off but it has the same taunt as ours and we get a counter attack with ours they dont have.  They get a single target agro control that is extremley effective over our insolent gibe and tos over openwounds.  I cant recall what they get at 65 but imo juggercrap isnt all that <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  <BR></P> <P>So ask yourself this:</P> <P>Trade insolent gibe for reinforcement...openwounds for tos...going bezerk for 600ish hp 60ish sta and some def....50% chance to proc 400ish hate for 20% chance to proc 400ish hate and 300ish dmg.  They have something other than our weapon ageis aswell but i forget what it is.</P> <P>All in all i wouldnt trade my zerker for anything atm both for mt'ing and for dps'ing.</P> <P>Im not at home atm just read this post and thought id spew out what i think the diffrences are i could be wrong on a couple things if i am feel free to correct me.</P><p>Message Edited by Lexani- on <span class=date_text>07-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:12 PM</span>

[atjtennis]

<DIV>As khalad has pointed out mitigation is the most importnat thing I'd like to see 1 of our 2 health regen buffs made into an 250-500 HP or 50 sta buff since health regen is 100% worhtless on raids and in any group situation.  Gettin 128 health regen'd every 6 secs isn't going to make 1 bit of difference in either of these situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I don't forsee any changes coming to these 2 buffs anytime soon.  I MT for our guild full time and I know several other Berserkers that do the same for their guild your goal should be to get around 7500+ HP w/sword and shield equipped and 5100+ mitigation</DIV>

[Lexan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> atjtennis wrote:<BR> <DIV>As khalad has pointed out mitigation is the most importnat thing I'd like to see 1 of our 2 health regen buffs made into an 250-500 HP or 50 sta buff since health regen is 100% worhtless on raids and in any group situation.  Gettin 128 health regen'd every 6 secs isn't going to make 1 bit of difference in either of these situations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I don't forsee any changes coming to these 2 buffs anytime soon.  I MT for our guild full time and I know several other Berserkers that do the same for their guild your goal should be to get around 7500+ HP w/sword and shield equipped and 5100+ mitigation</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I like to tank at 12k hp then i just put all mit items on.  I usually tank raid buffed at 12khp and 6300-6800mit depending on which gear i want to use and which random person we have in the mt group.  We always have a templar, defiler, corcer the other 2 classes are kinda random idealy a dirge and a warden but dosent always happen like that.  </P> <P>I self buff to 5800mit and hp is between 7500-8k i forget.  Although its dropped since they took away my hp food <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P><p>Message Edited by Lexani- on <span class=date_text>07-02-2006</span> <span class=time_text>12:17 PM</span>

[Ayattoll]

While I would love to see our worthless HP regens become HP or Sta buffs as they should be, but that will never happen , anyway we cant have it all, we can tank just as good as guards while doing much more dps than them and offcourse  having a blast by playing our toons,Now as to what you can do to push your HP , just play with your gear and group setups , though as mentioned above mitigation above all.. I prefer to lower my HP using cuirass of protection and light chitin rings for more mitigationp.s. good luck on  world cup but I hope Portugal  goes on final and wins <span>:smileywink:</span>

[Vindorus]

Well, some better items (doomrage greaves for example) and I´m on a good way...but they never drop..always the same <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Now I´m using the Cuirass of Shadowfire instead of CoP. If they nerf the CoP I´m well prepared <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. PS: Of course Germany will win...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vindorus wrote:<BR>First I want to introduce myself, I´m Vindeth from the Valor Server and I play a lvl 70 Berserker in a... well you could call it "Funguild" that loves doing raids.  <BR>Our usual MT on raids is a 70 well-equipped guardian who is doing a good job. <BR>I really enjoy to tank on raids, too,  and so I noticed a lot of things I´d like to say here where some devs may read the forums.<BR>The main problem is that we have some great spells to get aggro with damage but not a single HP-Buff, Tower of Stones, Sta-Buff or something like that.... <BR>If I hadn´t so much masterspells I would immediately betray and start a new life as a guard..with maaaany App I Spells <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.<BR>What shall I do to push my Hps a good way? What shall I do when I get down to 10% HP during a Raid? Praying is a good idea atm!<BR><BR>greetings from germany..<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (I excuse for my english...)<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>and guards dont have visions of maddness nor as many temp defensive buffs.. nor life regen.. which I admit is nto the most useful thing.. also kep in mind it is easyier for u to maintain aggro and do a heck of alot more dmg... I dont know if u care complaining cause a guard  has a life buff and ToS but taht is all they raelly have... over you and for it u sacrifice alot... if u switched to a guard now u woudl find alot of things about them dissapointing</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vindorus wrote:<BR> Mitigation isn´t a problem..there are enough items and a great AA-line to get a very good mitigation. Also guards and zerkers have the same miti-shortbuffs...Wall of Ferocity - Wall of Force...Mayhem - Command. On M1 they have the same effect. <BR>Maybe a patch could bring some changes: <BR>Instead of Juggernaut (I call it Jokernaut) they could give us a little sta/hp buff..tower of stones...ANYTHING! We are plate tanks with taunts, miti-buffs and stuff...you know? And so I´m sorry, but that´s a pretty bad joke. I know there is another thread for that topic and that´s why i won´t argue about that. I just wanted to give you an example what SOE could to. <BR> <P>Message Edited by Vindorus on <SPAN class=date_text>06-30-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:33 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>dude honestly then what woudl be the point of being a guardian? you have so many things the same as us alraedy.. in addition u do a ton more dmg and are able to gain and hold aggro much better... and as stated earlier visions of maddness rocks.. if you got tos and life buffs the role of a guardian woudl be pointless as it is guards are already 2nd tanks to zerkers purley cause zerkers can do 95% of waht guards can but guards cant come close ot alot of things zerkers can do</P> <P> </P> <P>sorry this talk jsut makes me mad as I feel so gimped as a class as a guardian right now compared to zerkers.. we have 2 advantages tos and life buff and we give up alot for it.. </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Olek'Siy wrote:<BR>HP gap for zerker tanks can be closed with right group setup. You can usually get away with not having scout agro transfer(guardian can't).<BR>and I dont think guardians use ToS as much as u think they do.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>no tos is not that grweat of a spell..  as it take awhile to switch out shields even when they ar hotkeyed.. and the effect is gone in a sec.. even if I am down to 10% I cant cast it fast enoguh to matter.. in additon it wouldnt raelly save me anyhow.. and the fact that it kills shields means u cant really use it whenever its up</P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ayattollah wrote:<BR>While I would love to see our worthless HP regens become HP or Sta buffs as they should be, but that will never happen , anyway we cant have it all, we can tank just as good as guards while doing much more dps than them and offcourse  having a blast by playing our toons,<BR><BR>Now as to what you can do to push your HP , just play with your gear and group setups , though as mentioned above mitigation above all.. I prefer to lower my HP using cuirass of protection and light chitin rings for more mitigation<BR><BR>p.s. good luck on  world cup but I hope Portugal  goes on final and wins <SPAN>:smileywink:</SPAN><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>if they did do that then they would have to remove something or give gurads a reason for playing guards.. as then we woudl be the same cept u woudl do 3x more dps

[renewedbullet]

im a lvl 65 berseker and i have tanks some t7 and t6 i wouldnt say HP is my main deal mostly i got for AGI for adavondice and MIT there is very nice t7 none relic gear to help and  holding agro isnt to hard with a dirge or some class with a hate gain buff doomrage gear is quite nice not to hard to get eather but im still to low for any relic and the doomrage set<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Wabit]

<P>i'll trade ya my sta buff for the HP regen, ToS for open wounds or gibe...  raid buffed i'm beyond sta capped, and ToS i might use once a raid...  i'll even toss in the group def buff for something usefull...</P> <P>if you really think the grass is greener roll a guard alt and lvl it to 30, you'll be missing ToS and reinforcment still but you'll see the class for what it basicly is...</P>

[Ep]

I think what wabit, is saying is that, raid tanking wise, we have and use 99% of our ca's and abilitys, probably minus intercede/juggernaut thats all we don't use when we raid tank.And it's true, regen caps pretty high(i dont' know the number) while we regen 85(150, depending on proc) it in effect nullifies the +sta (everyone is sta capped raiding just about, or with defiler, still capped if mostly relic) and the only real advantage is the +hp (which is about 600-700? good amount too if it's modded by 2.5/2.5) So it's a pretty even hp comparison imo. (plus whose never used the regen for soloing? for soloing it's unquestionably more worthwhile than raw hp, but then again thats no raiding)Also they get all these spheres or and protecting or whatever, i doubt they really want to or need to shield thier group from harm in a raid, and they have some wierd troub like group deaggro? i doubt a mt group barely generates that much aggro anyway.(aside from the usually pre-ward thats the only aggro they might get, but who pre-wards?)Really about the only thing that most zerkers should be envious of(i'm sure guards are on the flip side envious of open wounds/rampage) is stoneskin, tos. <div></div>

[Ayattoll]

Jnewby Vision of Madness is not as cool as you think it is when it comes to t7 raiding, I am trying to remember if got saved by it on any t7 raid but i cant recall  any occassion that it saved me in a t7 raid. Maybe it did a couple of times that i havent noticed, but thats all about it. but yeah its great for solo, for example I wouldnt make it solo all the way to the sanctum forge without it but we talking raid uses of abilities hereAlso as zerkers doing 3 times dps from a guard is kinda situational, we can do great dps on multi targets once every 3 minutes.  though I am pretty sure that a guard having crit from strenght line and double attacks from buckler line can do nearly as much dps on a single target as a zerker, engulfing rage wont break a difference, you can cap dps and haste from other classes buffs ( coercer,dirge,inquistor fury. illussionist)Yeah I know most guards dont go for  buckler line its usually mitgation from wis and "tsunami " from agility , but the choice for a guard to do pretty decent dps is there.

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>From playing a healer I'll tell ya zerks hold aggro a lot better then guardians.  As a tradeoff zerks have less hps.</P> <P>We played with a zerk MT for a while and they make good raidtanks.  The only thing is zerks need a bit more parry to cap out so ask your dirge to spec to add parry as an AA to cap it.  Then all you're down is about 600 hps or so but you gain a lot better aggro.</P>

[FightGame]

<DIV>There's no difference in the amount of parry, between a zerk and guard.  We both cap at 420.  Guard's do have a group buff that gives defense (NOT parry)...but if you've done some claymore stuff and have doomrage/relic, then defense is easy to cap out...zerk or guard, no difference here either.  Tis the reason I went down Intelligence line - for the parry.  But since this is also capped out during the raids, I'll probably respec.</DIV> <DIV>If a guard has more parry, then it's because of his AA choice or the gear they are wearing...not simply because they are a guard.</DIV>

[mikemcmodmi]

<P>That's not true.  Zerks get Guarding Vigilance that adds agility so have naturally higher agilities and need to be buffed less to hit cap.  Guards get Unyielding Vigilance that adds parry instead of agility.</P> <P>With a guardian a dirge with only an a3 parry buff will go over the 420 cap.  With a Zerk you'll hit around 412 or so parry with a dirge depending on gear that adds parry.</P>

[FightGame]

<DIV>Ok, but when you are MT for a raid, you should NOT be casting those abilities.  Another fighter should have thier avoidance on you.  And if you cast yours, it cancels theirs out.  You want the extra chance of avoiding a hit from the other fighter, not the added agility (or parry if you're a guardian) you gain from casting yours on someone else.</DIV> <DIV>I guess if you don't have a fighter in your MT group, then you should use the ability.  But if at all possible, get one.  Looking through the parses from when I have a paladin in my group (which also gives mitigation, etc), with their avoidace on me, I see myself avoiding alot of hits, using THEIR avoidance...and it checks this before it even has a chance to check my own avoidance.  </DIV> <DIV>As I said, the advantage of having their buff on you (47% chance to use their avoidance - even if their avoidance was only 50%) and having it check this before it even checks your own, is much better than raising your ow avoidance by a couple percent.  Even if the other fighter was in offensive satnce and their avoidance was only 25%...it would still be better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, zerk's is called Guarded Vehemence</DIV><p>Message Edited by FightGame on <span class=date_text>07-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:50 PM</span>

[Wabit]

2 fighters in the MT group is a waisted spot...

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wabit wrote:<BR> 2 fighters in the MT group is a waisted spot...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>paladins are good to buff mit</P> <P>and avoidance</P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ayattollah wrote:<BR><BR>Jnewby Vision of Madness is not as cool as you think it is when it comes to t7 raiding, I am trying to remember if got saved by it on any t7 raid but i cant recall  any occassion that it saved me in a t7 raid. Maybe it did a couple of times that i havent noticed, but thats all about it. but yeah its great for solo, for example I wouldnt make it solo all the way to the sanctum forge without it but we talking raid uses of abilities here<BR><BR>Also as zerkers doing 3 times dps from a guard is kinda situational, we can do great dps on multi targets once every 3 minutes.  though I am pretty sure that a guard having crit from strenght line and double attacks from buckler line can do nearly as much dps on a single target as a zerker, engulfing rage wont break a difference, you can cap dps and haste from other classes buffs ( coercer,dirge,inquistor fury. illussionist)<BR>Yeah I know most guards dont go for  buckler line its usually mitgation from wis and "tsunami " from agility , but the choice for a guard to do pretty decent dps is there.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree guards coudl do more then they do.. but they dont cause that is not waht they are after usually.. however my opint was some poster asked to have tos and a life buff.. which is ludicrios as raelly this is our only defensive advantage anymore.. and even so zerkers have other buffs we do not.. maybe they are worse but I was stating taht the dps is a big advantage especially casue of holding aggro..

[WolfSha]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wabit wrote:<BR> 2 fighters in the MT group is a waisted spot...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>paladins are good to buff mit</P> <P>and avoidance</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Yes they do, and unless i'm short on a particular resist and need that boosted, which is rare, i'll put a pally or SK in the MT group with me for the mit and avoidance increases.  You can even put a guard in the MT group with you for the group HP buff, but the mit is more useful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Being able to regen 100+ points per tick is very useful on a long fight and adds up to a lot of HP restored.  The only thing it doesn't help with is getting killed at the start of a fight while your healers build up speed.  This is where guards have a real advantage - more HP combined with tower of stone makes them much less likely to pull and fall over dead before the healers have got you stabalised, which happens to me occationally.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was considdering the "parries 100% of incoming attacks" final AA ability as a kind of "poor mans tower of stone" until i saw it was a 10 minute recase, and anyway, i'd rather have the mit boost and 10% hate gain from the wiz and str lines.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I actually made a long guard v zerker comparison post for my guild on our forums, including screenshots of two same-level, same-gear characters when the beta-buffing for the new adventure pack was available.   I'd link it or copy it here, but our server blew up a couple of weeks a go so i can't get to it :smileysad:</DIV> <P>To cut a long story short the differences were this:</P> <P>Mit and avoidance were pretty similar</P> <P>Guards have more HP, zerkers have HP regen</P> <P>Guards have a few other tanky tricks - tower of stone & hate reduction for a group member</P> <P>Zerkers have a few dps tricks - rampage and open woulds particularly (no, not juggernaught - not unless it's a grey epic!!)</P> <DIV><BR></DIV>

[Artalis the Elder]

<DIV>I wouldn't say Guards or Zerks have it all wrapped up on either side.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guards also get Reinforcment which owns rescue and when properly used can really be amazing and bring peeled mobs back where they are supposed to be. Their 50% proc rate on their taunting stance is great for long long fights where the power is running low but the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] caster pets are still wailing away. Tower of Stone is amazing against nasty crit heavy encounters like the Labs seem to have in such profuse number. Moderate is a very nice ability to have too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zerks churn out damage in such amounts that  keeping aggro is fairly easy if folks don't go crazy and you stay on the same mob the MA is on. Vision of Madness is of debatable use in raids, I've really only had it save the day once that I've noticed. Usually the encounters are multiple mobs and the hits are coming in too fast for the hp to come back up before you get crushed. But when it comes to tanking tools Insolent Gibe is the absolute best thing going. I really showed our Guards the greatness of being a Zerk back when Moonchild spawned her ghosts and when Padras Predd busts out his Abominations. I click one button and they come to me like gnolls to a cookout.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We do the job fine. Zerks and Guards are both great tanks and either can tank any raid (that I know of) if geared properly. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Really it comes down to the individual playing the toon. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't it always?<BR></DIV> <DIV>PS I agree our HP regen is lame and Juggernaught is just stupid. I'd trade both hp regens and Juggernaught for a single sta or hp buff. Oh well.</DIV>

[Ep]

comparing reinforcement vs insolent gibe.As a berserker i'd put my bank on gibe. one reason is that i never loose aggro, and yea my raid dps can go crazy, and the times i do loose aggro to like a wiz(you can see from implied target) he has like 6% mana left, so he really wanted to burn down the trash, heh. But i don't loose aggro, so imo having 2 rescues is redundant, it'd be nice i guess on memblur mobs, which is when i use rescue. But i'd choose gibe over a guards reinforcement, and thier other aoe taunt. Thats how much i value gibe, if i want a group of trash to stick on me, i gibe, i want a named on me? i gibe, i have no power? i gibe. However if i were a guard, i'd think i would choose reinforcement however, i've seen guards have the need to have snap back aggro.Yea it's been debated, countless times, guards 50% proc vs zerks 20% proc. Does it seem fair, one flips a coin, while the other has to roll a 5sided die?Course ours does dmg also, so overall i'd want to keep the 20% zerk one still.(i don't know if the taunt portion will be resisted, the dmg will go through or can be resisted or whatever, but hey on duels, it's cool heh)<div></div>

[Vindorus]

Insolent Gibe is great for raids but in most cases useless when I am in groups cause the spell has a long range and I don´t want to have adds...(that´s the job of the mage ;D) Destruction and Open Wounds are great to hold the aggro when fighting against an encounter with multiple targets. So Zerker and Guard, both have advantages and disadvantages when they try to hold the aggro. But guards have too many advantages with ther defense! We have a stupid in combat hp regen and that´s it! Of course we have the same def. stance and miti buffs but nothing else...<div></div>

[Thor Of Hal]

<P>In general:</P> <P>The Guardian</P> <P>Can draw upon a bigger pool of defensive spells:</P> <P>Their Tuants proc/deal Actual Hate ---- Berserkers proc/Deal damage. Reduced Hate + Damage (according to SoE 1 damage = +1 Threat increase... sorry dont have link)</P> <P>They have Bigger defensive Buffs.. They can call on thier versions of Mayhem, Wall of Ferocity and Subdued Rage + Def group buffs and crush/slash/piericing grp buffs.  And their HP buff.</P> <P><EM>>> Somthing that sums this up, is the differences between Taunting Defence and the Guardian Equivalent and Violent Pledge and the Guardian Equivalent.  Compare those spells and ull see what i mean<<<</EM></P> <P>The Berserker:</P> <P>The berserker has a greater ability to 'snatch agro' but may struggle to maintain it over time.  As the damage that is supposed to gain us Hate is very unreliable form of generating it. </P> <P>The Berserker has bigger offensive buffs (berserk procs) And has Health regen instead of HP proc. And an uber STR buff.</P> <P>Berserkers also have a slight edge of developing group agro,  And are first choice i think for any situation where group agro is a must.  </P> <P>Berserkers Can dps to a far greater extent then a guardian....</P> <P> ----- BUT -----</P> <P>Guardians have a higher damage attack CA (Retaliation strike... almost same if not same as Demolish and i think the highest is obliterate) then any berserker!! Although granted it is crushing so mobs can mitigate it more then the Melee we do.  </P> <P>They also have Obliterate which says in spell description almost never can be parried and drops mobs parry by 60!!! Which means that more melee hits land.. and i have definatly noted the difference after its been used (at master 1).  Particularly with Endbringers jus before the Corsolander in Labs - Also good mob to use your buckler line on (they parry like mad).</P> <P>If they want more DPS they are gunna have to drop some of their defensive buffs.. which basically means they will become a berserker anyway.</P> <P> </P> <P>Basically in Raids:</P> <P>I dont think a berserker can match a guardians ability to tank a named mob.  That does mean we cant tank it, it just means that it would be easier for a Guardian to tank... so most raid leaders will use a guardian, as there is a slightly less chance for a wipe and leaders job is to minismise the number of wipes (among other things) -which is vital for moral.   Im pritty sure a berserker can tank any mob in this game as well as a guardian.</P> <P>In actual fact... A guardian should be able to tank a group with just his normal group taunt if he knows what to do.  And with a good raid group, the agro issue pritty much disappears... so it is down to single self buffs. And guardians can outdo defensively berserkers.</P> <P>(NB: not talking about specifics here, if its a mob that does alotta cold damage = Berserker, Heat = Guardian, and only talking about single mobs)  </P> <P>Its 230am here so probably loads of mistakes.... lol will sort out later.</P> <P>Vlad</P>

[Bremer]

<P>Guardians don't have better defense buffs (same mitigation for ther def stance, Wall of Ferocity, their Mayhem has not noticable more mitigation because the values for slashing, piercing are higher, crushing lower), they buff def, but who cares if everyone caps def solo?</P> <P>As a zerker who just killed Tarinax as MT with a buckler I can say: there is no raid target a zerker couldn't tank :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Man, what a great fight, only 19 people or so, Tarinax at 3 %, all rezzer (healer, dirge, pala, necro) oom and the inqui died, I died at 2 % or so and he died without a living tank and half the raid dead :smileytongue: </P> <P>But why is there no buckler reward for claymore :smileysad:</P>

[Vindorus]

Of course they have better defensive buffs. They have HP and STA Buffs, and Tower of Stones. <div></div>

[Bremer]

We have hp reg and VoM, everything balanced :smileyhappy:

[zormik]

<P>Something i wanna add is that a guardian indeed has an edge with tos for dealing with the spikedps at the start of the fight.</P> <P>BUT</P> <P>one thing you guys often forget is that with groups a guardian really can struggle to glue that encounter onto him from the start of the fight.  When i'm MTing the healers prebuff, preward, pre-whatever they wanna pre- ... :smileytongue:</P> <P>When we let the guardian tank we often see that the encounter breaks and some of the mobs go off to splat our healers which means with a guardian pulling a big encounter the healers will be more careful with pre-whatever and will need more time to get into their healingpace.</P> <P>I often saw a guardian going down because of this (espescially in lyceum) while a zerk breezes trough these encounters...</P> <P>One thing makes us a very good choice for MTing raids and that is aggro.  I as a zerker don't really need extra hategeneration or transfer on me(i prefer to have it but if a very defensive MT-groupsetup is needed i can do without).  That's completely different for any other tank out there...</P><p>Message Edited by zormik on <span class=date_text>07-17-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:30 AM</span>

[Thor Of Hal]

<DIV>Hey Zorm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A simple Group Setup + MA setup will solve that problem with ease m8 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our guardian doesnt loose agro on groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And killed Tari myself with Buckler/Tower shield combo <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> was OT with a Guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im not saying zerkers cant.  Just that guardians are a safer bet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw Bremer VoM and HP regen are useless in raids, and lets face it Tier 7 is about raiding.   Its only useful if you get an instant heal when u die to bulster your HP, in which case VoM serves to Bulster the heals.  It is good when u eat a massive AoE DoT <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> And it appears to be bugged aswell, some times it only Procs for 147hp.  Think that happens when you die ur max hp can go to some silly figures and since VoM (at Master 1) heal u for 50% hp over 5 seconds (10% a second)... With a hp of 10/11k on a raid 10% of 10/11k is definatly not 147hp <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vladnor</DIV> <DIV>70 Berserker</DIV> <DIV>Unity</DIV> <DIV>Splitpaw </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on <SPAN class=date_text>08-24-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:06 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on <span class=date_text>08-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>07:10 AM</span>

[Zerv]

Really there isn't much of a difference Stamina is Capped easilyGuardians get more hp and ToS thats it really - and most Guards that I know of now use a buckler anyway and seldomly swap to ToSRegen and VoM helps to offset the less hp (which is minor anyway)Reinforcment or Insolent Gibe is just personal preferenceHeat or Cold in D stance - Personally I think heat is easier to max, but I have both maxed anyway in a groupA bit more mana efficient for a Zerker to hold aggro imo, but again thats questionable---Really doesn't matter either tank can raidtank and the bonus's of one or the other matter about 0 in a raid - it's who is equiped better to hit the mit cap and can hold aggro.<div></div>

[tass]

the reason why gaurds get the better stuff for tanking like buffs and such is because thats there main class feature. They suck for dps even more than a templer lol. So the trade off of a zerk for his dps is to give up some of those tanking abilities than make guards better than them in raiding situations. Even though I like tanking with my zerk id never betray him for a guard. I just like the dps tanking combo to much to go cold turky on pure tanking.<div></div>

[Tyrion]

<DIV>As a tank that is beginning to raid T7 content (almost cleared labs, we'll get you Vyemm), the only ability I think is a real advantage over Berserkers is Tower of Stone. On nasty pulls, stone-skinning 20K hits is huge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the other hand, Berserker AoE dps just rocks, and I can't match initial damage that allows a Berserker to lock-down a multi-mob encounter. Honestly though, they really are interchangeable. Both Guardians and Berserkers are fantastic raid tanks, and Berserkers have it great in that they can be MA and join the melee dps group.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tyrion on <span class=date_text>08-24-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:33 PM</span>

[Spite]

<DIV>Personlly I think Zerkers can hold the best aggro against multi-mob encounters. Does this relegate them to tanking the trash along the way and Guards tanking the nameds? Maybe, some times it seems that way. </DIV>

[waldemar2]

<DIV>The only thing that is disturbing me is the fact that their taunt-stance has a 50% chance to proc <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So i mean, the sta buff is really crappy because you can max sta very easily out, same as defensive skill.</DIV> <DIV>The HPreg is even to the HPbuff (grp buffs). And it's not more difficult to tank a named raid mob with a zerker than with a guardian,</DIV> <DIV>the only different thing may be the 52 special. pretty cool their reinforcement (nicest thing to off tank, instantly aggro with some hits), but don't forget insolent gibe <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV>

[steveatk]

<DIV>Tower of Stone isn't the only major defensive advantage. Guardian Sphere is just as much an "I win" button for absorbing damage, especially when the Guardian is the only one getting hit with 25% chance to proc stone skin on every hit for the next 36 secs :smileysurprised:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And guardians can hold agro on multiple groups just fine. Of course not with the finesse of Insolent Gibe though when it's up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That's one skill I'd definately like to add to my arsenal.</DIV>

[zormik]

<DIV>Another thing i want to add is that VOM has saved me plenty of times on raids already, i think it saves me on average once or twice (meaning i finished the encounter alive because of VOM) each raid which is imo a huge difference.  That's 2 wipes less...</DIV> <DIV>VOM for me is a little TOS.  Probably not as effective but very useful too imo...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now there will always be comparisons between guards and zerks but i think we both are pretty well balanced and it's proven by the fact we both are the most chosen class for MTing raids.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guards = the little defensive edge can be useful for the hardest fights you can imagine ingame.  On top of that i will always give my MT spot to a guardian on the corcolander by example.  Their hateproc is ideal for this. Same for orange epics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zerkers = holding aggro is our bussiness and is where we shine at and where we have an edge.  MT-groups can be more flexible because of this.  There is less need for hatetransfer/buffs... On top of that we are nice to have even when we're not MT-ing.  Our dps can just be erm quite impressive :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[Domiuk]

<DIV>"The only thing that is disturbing me is the fact that their taunt-stance has a 50% chance to proc"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It does only proc when you get hit though, this makes it better the tougher the mob. funny but against low green groups it can be a bit useless <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>pretty sure bezerkers get the other way round as yours depends on you having to hit the mob to proc, the higher the mob the less likely you hit , less likely it procs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really do not think there is much in it either way, I think guardians are a fraction better single target , bezerkers are much better on multiples.</DIV>

[Ep]

we have to be hit to proc taunting defense or whatever, we're not monks.stoneskin is unmitigated damage, so when you see it absorbs 15k, it's all unmitigated, it's like when a mage says, wow, i got swiped for 20k lol. So really stoneskin just save's a hit, basically would be the same as intercede.<div></div>

[Bremer]

<P>If I undertand Guardian's Sphere correctly only damage dealt to goup members can be absorbed, not damage to the Guardian. And I doubt the spell is funny if you transfer the damage from a cloth wearer to you, can be deadly. Personally, I prefer Destruction over this spell :smileytongue:</P> <P>Their taunt proc may proc more often, but ours procs for the same amount of hate plus additional damage, so more or less they are equal.</P>

[steveatk]

<P>It absorbs damage to group members, 1 hit each, and has a 25% chance of procing stone skin for the next 36 seconds. If I'm in any trouble and I know that nobody else is being hit then I'll use it to let the healers get on top again.</P> <P> </P>

[Thor Of Hal]

<P>Okay VoM is useless... because after you die the mob CANNOT hit you with for more then 10% hp at any one second.  at 11k hp 10% is around the 800 mark (my maths skills where never that good).  Your average trash mob will hit you for around 800-1kish if your well equiped and well buffed etc etc.  With VoM purely on its own without any supplimentry healing the epic mob (esp. if its 70/71+) could easly hit for 10% of ur HP = you die instantly before next 10% regen can fire.  Now what does make it uber is if u have wards/heals up then it bulsters them very very nicely.  but unless a healer has used his rez w/ no penalities for a minute (think inqs. have the ability) you will  seriously underpowered.  Tho  u can still tank with the sickness if healers are on thier toes.</P> <P> </P> <P>And have you guys seen the def/taunt spell that guardians get??... there is no doubt that they are kings of maintaining agro over long periods of time esp. on a single target.  Use zerkers are kings at mainting group agro with insolent gibe and SNATCHING agro... but then we back to berate as the only group taunt (guardians have a similar taunt).  and Rambo (open wounds + destruction) helps alot in maintain agro.  All these have 3 mins reuse timers so there are gaps where u have to very aware about ur group agro hold.   We are lucky in this that guardians dont have this ability and it does allow for more flexible group setups... but only in group encounters.</P> <P>This may help for you to see what spells guardians have and any other class for that matter (not sure how up-to-date it is)</P> <P><A href="http://home.comcast.net/~eq2gamedata/main.html" target=_blank>http://home.comcast.net/~eq2gamedata/main.html</A></P> <P>And as i said before if you have the Right group setup + Right MA system... you will not need a zerker to tank.  Imo raid leaders may get lazy and not bother swapping groups around for zerker/guardian if a guardian can tank all.  More often then not im put on Add duty on final named encounters or i serve as the OT.</P> <P> </P> <P>Vladnor The Berserk</P> <P>70 Berserker</P> <P>Unity </P> <P>Splitpaw</P>

[Zerv]

<div></div>I completely disagree -On our Venekor CORE raiding entity our two MT's are Berserkers - and as some of our guards get a bit more equiped, they will be also - it really doesn't matter the minor edge that one class has over the other is very situational.Personally we have monks tsunami pull most of our encounters than insolent gibe off - it works fantastic.  I never have problems keeping aggro and imo it's quite mana efficient, no need for a hate transfer in the MT group at all.  IMO Zerkers are a bit more mana efficient at holding raid aggro due to having such great dps.And VoM has saved me multiple times, the mob CAN hit you for more than 10% hp at any one second because you have healers healing you constantly, the regen, popup health from VoM + heals still hitting you makes it very easy to get back to full health - it's almost a get out of jail free card about 20 - 30% of the time.All in all I think in some situations Guards might be a hair better, and in some Zerks - It really doesn't make a difference.  <div></div><p>Message Edited by Zervun on <span class=date_text>09-01-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:21 AM</span>

[FightGame]

<P>When will people figure out that they really are wasting their time, and probably only provoking an unneeded arguement with other uninformed people trying to find out what all the differences are between zerks and guards, and who is better in what situation.  Just play the game with whatever friend is on.</P> <P>Zerkers (tanking everything successfully) = Guards (tanking everything successfully)</P> <P>not saying zerks = guards as far as every detail.  I'm saying either one can get the job done doing the encounter pretty much the same way, or a different way.</P> <P> </P> <P>Does it really matter if one of the classes has to do something a little different than the other because of their combat arts aren't exactly the same?  Each encounter has atleast a few ways you can do things.  Which means zerks can get it done using their couple different ways, and guards can get it done with their couple different ways.  It doesn't matter.  Don't forget that either one could have some bad luck, or good luck, and I think this will make more of a difference in things, than the difference in the classes will.</P>

[Memmoch]

I've leveled both a zerker and guardian up to lvl 60.  I've also retired my zerker and solely play my guardian now.  You take a guardian and a zerker and put them in the same gear and give them both same Tier CA's.  Then stick them 1 at a time into a 5man MT group setup and the guardian will be the better raid tank.  That is the trade-off of the berserker class ranking in the top 5 of DPS.  If you guys want the best raid tank then betray and become guardians.  If you want a good raid tank with great DPS then stay as a berserker.  Some people play berserkers as DPS units, which they are great for.  Some make zerkers to be tanks, which they are good at.  Can't have it all.  You guys should count yourself lucky in the fact that you get that choice.  Guardian's do not.  They are solely tanks.  You'll never see a guardian brought into a group as a "dps" unit. <div></div>

[Kyyz]

<DIV>I dont post much but I have posted a few times before last time I spoke here I was asking questions about raiding and what is good avoid mit questions. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I am a very accomplished Main Raid tank on AB server. I have tanked most the high end raid zones including Deathtoll and I dont think really there is that much difference in Guardians and Zerkers.  Gear makes a big part of high end raiding but I think the person behind that tank should also be added into the mix. I have seen Godly tanks and I have seen tanks that make you wonder if he/she Was ebay'd</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both our class's have strong points and weakness's HP can easily be over come with gear and stil maintain Very high Mit and Avoid. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would never trade in my zerker for any other class. To say one class is better than the other is wrong IMHO</DIV>

[Thor Of Hal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zervun wrote:<BR> I completely disagree -<BR><BR>On our Venekor CORE raiding entity our two MT's are Berserkers - and as some of our guards get a bit more equiped, they will be also - it really doesn't matter the minor edge that one class has over the other is very situational.<BR><BR>Personally we have monks tsunami pull most of our encounters than insolent gibe off - it works fantastic.  I never have problems keeping aggro and imo it's quite mana efficient, no need for a hate transfer in the MT group at all.  IMO Zerkers are a bit more mana efficient at holding raid aggro due to having such great dps.<BR><BR>And VoM has saved me multiple times, the mob CAN hit you for more than 10% hp at any one second because you have healers healing you constantly, the regen, popup health from VoM + heals still hitting you makes it very easy to get back to full health - it's almost a get out of jail free card about 20 - 30% of the time.<BR><BR><BR>All in all I think in some situations Guards might be a hair better, and in some Zerks - It really doesn't make a difference. <BR> <P>Message Edited by Zervun on <SPAN class=date_text>09-01-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:21 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Zervun, if dont need hate transfer/hate gain in you group, id be incline to say your MRF isnt utilising its full dps potential, agro transfer/gain was put in there for a reason.  For example, i cannot max my dps without say Amends me, i have to limit it severly so i dont pull agro etc etc Even then i pull agro for the poor pali who has amends on me lol >=o)  <P>Im not saying zerkers are seriously flawed, im saying that our mechanics are different to a guardian at a basic level, you cant play a guardian the way u play a zerker and u cant play a zerker the way you play a guardian.  Guardians can hold single target hate with greater efficiency then zerkers can imo.  But this is the way SOE wants it, guardians are essentially good and zerkers (although nuetral) can be seen as the bad opposite.  That is zerkers are given more off. abilities and guards given more def. abilities. </P> <P> Im not moaning or whinning, im just saying thats the way SoE wanted it and so thats the way it will be.  Guardians can tank better, not by far, but can still do it better then zerkers, but they suck at everything else in the game.  Zerkers, can still tank all T7 RAID content (killed tarinax many times with mi buckler) but guardians are your safest bet for most - except large groups of adds, but then again agro transfer/gain in group fixs that for em, jus with zerkers u dont need that extra hate transfer <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Imo its a good balance.  I got 1.5 - 2k on parses so im happy, im not sitting back and twiddling my thumbs while i wait for a mob to tank alone or with the guardian.  Thats why i dont like ppl that call for a dps nerf on berserkers coz then we will be the guardians ugly cousin, not to mention dps is a huge part of our agro generating ability.  (try goin buckler line with only 49% double attack then go 76% and 11dps -->19dps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</P> <P>Its kinda along the lines with what Mammoch says.</P> <P>I wouldnt want my berserker to do gimpish dps in exchange for outright taunts and taunt debuffs etc sexy as they are.  I rolled a berserker because they are BERSERKERS!!!   >=o)</P> <P> </P> <P>Vladnor The Berserk</P> <P>70 Berserker</P> <P>Unity</P> <P>Splitpaw</P><BR><p>Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on <span class=date_text>09-10-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:29 PM</span>

[FightGame]

<P>funny that people still discuss this.</P> <P> </P> <P>raids are completing everything in game with a gaurdian OR a berserker tanking.  not with any one of these ideas of whether one has an edge in any area, whether it's aggro control on single target, groups, VOM, TOS, blah blah blah.  Nobody cares.</P> <P>Does anyone really think that these raids that have been completing everything in game, with either class, are second guessing anything?  Like, hmm, maybe if our guard betrays to zerker, or we guild a zerker, we should have better group aggro control, and their insolent gibe will be better somehow because someone said so on the forums....or maybe we should guild a guardian so he can tos for 3 hits and the healers can say, "wow with aguardian, I don't have to spam heal for those 10 seconds (although I will still have to spam trauma cure) " - lol</P> <P>Yes, these two classes do provide a very very slight edge, in certain circumstances, but to analyze the differences and try to say that one will really make a difference over the other, is totally rediculous.</P>

[zormik]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FightGame wrote:<BR> <P>funny that people still discuss this.</P> <P> </P> <P>raids are completing everything in game with a gaurdian OR a berserker tanking.  not with any one of these ideas of whether one has an edge in any area, whether it's aggro control on single target, groups, VOM, TOS, blah blah blah.  Nobody cares.</P> <P>Does anyone really think that these raids that have been completing everything in game, with either class, are second guessing anything?  Like, hmm, maybe if our guard betrays to zerker, or we guild a zerker, we should have better group aggro control, and their insolent gibe will be better somehow because someone said so on the forums....or maybe we should guild a guardian so he can tos for 3 hits and the healers can say, "wow with aguardian, I don't have to spam heal for those 10 seconds (although I will still have to spam trauma cure) " - lol</P> <P>Yes, these two classes do provide a very very slight edge, in certain circumstances, but to analyze the differences and try to say that one will really make a difference over the other, is totally rediculous.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Couldn't agree more ...</P> <P>Both are very viable options and they both do their job very well.</P>

[Dimgl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Thor Of Halla wrote:</P> <P>Zervun, if dont need hate transfer/hate gain in you group, id be incline to say your MRF isnt utilising its full dps potential, agro transfer/gain was put in there for a reason.  For example, i cannot max my dps without say Amends me, i have to limit it severly so i dont pull agro etc etc Even then i pull agro for the poor pali who has amends on me lol >=o) </P> <P>Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on <SPAN class=date_text>09-10-2006</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:29 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#00cc99>Just for the record, and speaking as the other MT mentioned by Zervun, we are on a PVP server (Qeynos side Venekor), meaning we have no FP classes. That means we don't have assassins, and we don't have brigands (dispatch, please keep in mind we do NOT have dispatch.) Our top parsers doing 900-1400 per pull typically are 1 or 2 zerkers, a warlock, a swashbuckler, and 1 or 2 rangers. No, we don't have full raid gear yet, but at least some of us are utilizing PVP rewards. That said...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>Our raid maximizing it's DPS is a significantly different beast than your typical raid. We will never achieve the kind of DPS numbers that fully optimized PVE ones achieve because we simply can't have perma-dispatch from jestered brigands, no assassins, no inquisitors/their buffs, no coercers/their buffs, we can't even field defilers in MT group, etc etc.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>I'm one of our top DPS parsers, and I'm at all but 10 masters in the game (most of which aren't DPS oriented, IE Blood Craze, Vision of Madness, etc) and using a 80 DR 1h PVP reward (Dazzling Blade, which kicks the crap out of everything except the planar axe almost) and I can barely break 1400 on group mobs, 800-1100 on single mobs, take 200 or so off if I am tanking. That's a pretty healthy DPS compared to what I read other raid zerkers here saying they can achieve, especially when many of them probably have the benefits of jester capped dispatching brigands. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#00cc99>With a dirge multiplying our hate, and our parsing in the top 4 DPS in our raid, our hate is solid. It isn't a fault of our raid force's dps (though it could improve), it is a result of the limitations we experience on a PVP server. That, and perhaps age of the server. When the first 70s were appearing on PVE servers, PVP servers were getting their very first 30s and 40s, maybe maybe a 50 or two. Remember, day 1 of KOS for level 60s on PVE was day 1 level 1 of PVP servers.</FONT></P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vindorus wrote:<BR>First I want to introduce myself, I´m Vindeth from the Valor Server and I play a lvl 70 Berserker in a... well you could call it "Funguild" that loves doing raids.  <BR>Our usual MT on raids is a 70 well-equipped guardian who is doing a good job. <BR>I really enjoy to tank on raids, too,  and so I noticed a lot of things I´d like to say here where some devs may read the forums.<BR>The main problem is that we have some great spells to get aggro with damage but not a single HP-Buff, Tower of Stones, Sta-Buff or something like that.... <BR>If I hadn´t so much masterspells I would immediately betray and start a new life as a guard..with maaaany App I Spells <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.<BR>What shall I do to push my Hps a good way? What shall I do when I get down to 10% HP during a Raid? Praying is a good idea atm!<BR><BR>greetings from germany..<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (I excuse for my english...)<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>so you have more dps more aggro control and a free death and u are still complaining about 590 hps that guards get more? weak.. go betray to a gurad.. then u can complain how little yer dps is...

[Analviper]

<DIV>Zerkers = more dps </DIV> <DIV>Guardians = More hp</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its the way it has always been and always will be, zerkers IMO hold aggro better than guardians due the sheer dps we kick out between our taunts. Guardians hower (ogres with hp class trait especially) are always gonna have more HP and compensate for less dps with hate procs and better defnsive buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Certain tanks are better for certain mobs... fact... if they werent then the game would be very dull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing that would help zerkers catch up a bit defensively would be if our regen buffs were converted to defensive buffs of some sort... but thats not happening anytime soon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People wil lalways find something to complain about.. i bet the guard forums are littered with "give us DPS" posts. Bottom line is both tanks do the same job in slightly different ways.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and MITIGATION > EVERYTHING!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>=)</DIV>

[Triste-Lune]

I have tank everything in the game from contested to instanced without the slightest problem (still need to kill chel drak guild reluctant to go there with so many new recruit). i d add that guild almost booted our guardian after having me as a MT he is still our guild's mascot <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.As long as you are a skilled zerker and use your brain you can tank everything. those punit 600 HP difference wont do anything. There are awsome berserker awsome guardian awsome SK and awsome palladin that can tank everything in the game (not sure about C'D and matron thoug). We have an SK tank tarinax for the fun. So there is no difference between guard and zerker.

[Thor Of Hal]

<P>hmm, when mobs begin to con orange, i believe that guardians may have a slight edge.  As they have more outrigh taunting ability.  although they can get resisted, personaly i have found that they get resisted less then we miss.  And our dps will be blunted against an orange con mob.  This is what i talk about primarley.   I never said that zerkers couldnt tank a mob that a guardians ( i think its the 3rd time i have said it in this thread). </P> <P>Basically, I Believe dps is a fickle thing to get hate on.   Some mobs it will do more damage some it will do less, with orange con mob you will struggle more the a guardian imo.  To a certain extent buffing melee skills can avoid this... but there is much discussion as to how useful this actually is.  Where as a taunt is a taunt. it cannot get mitigated against... if it lands it WILL give you the threat it says.. or within the range (which usually isnt more then 3-400 difference).  And it will also regen ALOT faster if its resisted.  Where as CA have a larger min max diff + get mitigated somewhat by the mob.</P> <P>Its a minor difference, but somthing that personally i believe is good to understand.</P> <P>Vladnor The Berserk</P> <P>70 Berserker</P> <P>Unity</P> <P>Splitpaw</P><p>Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on <span class=date_text>09-20-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:04 PM</span>

[Bremer]

<DIV>Tanking an orange mob is zero difference to a yellow, their taunts and combat arts gets resisted just liker ours.</DIV>

[FightGame]

<DIV>Your melee skills, combined with lots of people debuffing the mob in every way (as they should do anyway), eliminates this possibility, if there is one.</DIV>

[zormik]

<DIV>The difference in fighting orange mobs lies in the guardian's hate proc that fires off 50% of the time he gets hit...</DIV> <DIV>He will get hit a lot by orange mobs --> a lot more extra hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We as zerkers have a proc that only fires off 20% of the time...</DIV>

[Thor Of Hal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR> <DIV>Tanking an orange mob is zero difference to a yellow, their taunts and combat arts gets resisted just liker ours.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Are you sure about that bremer?  According to SoE and my general raid experience there is a big difference to tanking a yellow to an orange mob.  What matters is how well that orange mob is debuffed...</P> <P>My point was that they have a few more taunts then us, and that 50% proc, now afiak when a CA gets resisted it doesnt regen as quick as a taunt when it gets resisted.  So While we waiting longer for our CA to regen after our taunts have been used, they are happly cycling thier taunts and if they resist they dont have to wait long for it to come available. + High damage hits/debuff that 'rarely miss' i.e. Precise Strike + Obliterate.  That dec parry by 60 for 10 secs.  They also have an AE taunt like the initial threat hit of Insolent Gibe... And imo the great thing about Insolent Gibe is that AoE ability... gives you the chance to quickly trap multipul adds/ loose mobs.  However, if the AoE taunt fails to pull agro the 34sec 50% chance to proc threat after that is not much use at all unless u have a mob hitting you to cause it to proc.  And guardians have that anyway in the form of their 50% proc version over ours.   </P> <P>VoM and hp regen are not as useful as Sta/HP buffs.</P> <P>I also think ppl should be careful when they say 'guardians are the same as zerkers or 95% the same etc'  Imo whilst, they are similar in many ways they are also different in many other.  You CANNOT play a guardian as you play a zerker.   Its the way SoE want it... Zerkers + Guardians compete for the same raid niche of Raid MT, but SoE have given us different tools to compete for that niche otherwise wed jus be copy and paste jobs.</P> <P>And i love zerkers jus they way are <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Dont have, and would'nt, roll another char at all <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.   The only thing i dont get is Juggernaut... Unless SoE see that RL would choose guardians so they gave use somthing to use while we not MT... ??? lol</P> <P>And id say, obvious though it might be, on the earlier priorities of tanking; THREAT > Miti > HP > Avoidance ... etc</P> <P>Zerkers FTW <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Vladnor The Berserk</P> <P>70 Berserker</P> <P>Unity</P> <P>Splitpaw</P> <P> </P> <P>  </P>

[Majes]

lucaxx from aftermath on butcherblock tanked cheldrak and the matron.so basically the classes are pretty even tanking wise.<div></div>

[FightGame]

Ya, that's the belief of the mass majority.  Always will be a few people that continually try to analyze the tiny differences...like they matter at all.

[Thor Of Hal]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FightGame wrote:<BR> Ya, that's the belief of the mass majority.  Always will be a few people that continually try to analyze the tiny differences...like they matter at all.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>See your point FightGame but personally,<BR>Id like to know the exact differences between my class and its lead competitor, i believe it can help to make me a better tank through better understanding of what zerkers can do ... and a bigger geek <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vladnor The Berserk</DIV> <DIV>70 Berserker</DIV> <DIV>Unity</DIV> <DIV>Splitpaw</DIV><p>Message Edited by Thor Of Halla on <span class=date_text>09-23-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:10 AM</span>

[Bremer]

<P>Guardian: more HP</P> <P>Beserker: cooler</P> <P>That's the main difference</P>

[Ep]

main difference really is tower of stone, if a guard is carrying a box of legendary shields, they got you beat. I don't believe anything else really matters at all in terms of tanking or taking hits. For this i always give the guard a 1% edge in mt tanking.however a guard has 0% use in raid dps, if a guard isn't mt that guard shouldn't be in raid, if you have any other class sitting outside a raid, they will be better than a guard who isn't mt on a raid, thats a given. 5dirges? heck that'll be a boy band right there.<div></div>

[Thor Of Hal]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Epyx wrote:<BR>main difference really is tower of stone, if a guard is carrying a box of legendary shields, they got you beat. I don't believe anything else really matters at all in terms of tanking or taking hits. For this i always give the guard a 1% edge in mt tanking.<BR><BR>however a guard has 0% use in raid dps, if a guard isn't mt that guard shouldn't be in raid, if you have any other class sitting outside a raid, they will be better than a guard who isn't mt on a raid, thats a given. 5dirges? heck that'll be a boy band right there.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Guardians dont have any edge on tanking... they just have a way of filling that tanking niche.   They are taunt/defensive and we are taunt/offensive.  Some may say they have it easier, and im sure others wont.  But there is nothing a zerker cant tank that a guardian can.</P> <P>lol what a boy band that would be <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Vladnor The Berserk</P>