Aggro Management

[wwd2]

<DIV>61 Berserker here and I keep losing aggro.  Several levels ago I was tanking Maglomemus (sp) for a raid and lost aggro to a bruiser several levels below me at least three times.  He complained about having to feign death just to lose aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The last group I was in I lost aggro to the two rogues constantly, one was a 64 brigand so I don't feel as bad but the other was a 58 Swashbuckler.  To make matters worse, I lost aggro to a 55 Wizard at least three different times!  I spent the whole time spamming my taunts.  Anytime I tried one of my high damage attacks, I'd lose aggro before it fired.  Some of it I blame on being on dial up and the lag during big encounters with a full group, but it's pretty frustrating to have mobs ignore all my taunts (except Rescue but that takes a while to recharge).  Granted we were killing them pretty fast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Duoing and trioing I usually have no trouble and spam my HOs the whole time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just wondering what I am doing wrong.</DIV>

[TheBoh]

What weapon you using?<div></div>

[Khal]

<DIV>The bruiser was prob useing quarrel which generates hate, as does the Brigands AR.  Berserkers taunts arnt all that great, they need to do damage to make up for them.  Would recomend tanking offensive with a 2 hander or DW for better agro management.  </DIV>

[atjtennis]

Khalad pretty much summed it up I always tankw ith my 2 hander and usually in offensive stance unless I'm doing HoF but don't feel bad about losing it to the bruiser especially

[SageGaspar]

Any DPS class, including (especially) brawlers can take aggro off anyone, anytime. Your swashbuckler's low level actually hurt him, he's one or two levels away from getting two awesome deaggro upgrades and his first deaggro poison, yet he's still at the point where he's putting out top DPS. Brigands are just ridiculous aggro magnets.Brawlers are especially bad, even moreso if they don't turn off their hate proc, because they have absolutely zero deaggros. My swashbuckler can put out twice the damage of a brawler and not take aggro.If you're a competent tank (and you sound like one), sometimes it's the other classes that need to learn how to tone it down. This is even more true of raids, where the MT is getting stunned and debuffed to hell and the DPS is getting supercharged. Unless you have the right classes to tweak aggro around, but... that's a different story for a different day. I'm guessing you didn't tweak out your Mag raid hehe <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[WinterAnar]

Oftentimes I think a lot of swashies don't put their hate buff on the tank.  Much like how bruisers turn on their attack hate/damage proc for soloing for a bit extra damage then forget to turn it off when not MT in a group.  Or other fighters forget they have buffs to help the MT with avoid or mit or whatever.  And I'll admit that when playing my dirge I'll forget they have a deagro, and I'd imagine many other people who play scouts do as well.  So honestly some of it is just bad luck, some of it is forgetting and some of it is not knowing how to play ones class... Well I'd assume it was some mixture of the group of em.And I have to say, compared to guardians, zerkers do have to work harder to keep agro.  With the guardian reactive hate proc it's almost impossible to lose hate (50% proc instead of 25% and for I think about double the threat, not sure on that cause of the damage on the zerker one).  Hence why I play my zerker more than my guard.<div></div>

[wwd2]

<DIV>Thanks for the responses.  To sum up so far, I shouldn't feel too bad, because I was competing with lots of aggro takers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I usually use a two-hander, by the way, but I am usually in a defensive stance as well.  It's only like 10 more points to my attack to go offensive and it halves my avoidance percentage.  I never noticed a dramatic increase in damage by going offensive either, but I have only used it when assisting another tank.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As many of you have pointed out, I have probably forgotten to turn of my hate procs too, when assisting.  Maybe I need to make a 'Tank' macro and an 'Damage' macro and a 'Raid Tank' macro and a ....  </DIV>

[ParlMoebius]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageGaspar wrote:<BR>Any DPS class, including (especially) brawlers can take aggro off anyone, anytime. Your swashbuckler's low level actually hurt him, he's one or two levels away from getting two awesome deaggro upgrades and his first deaggro poison, yet he's still at the point where he's putting out top DPS. Brigands are just ridiculous aggro magnets.<BR><BR>Brawlers are especially bad, even moreso if they don't turn off their hate proc, because they have absolutely zero deaggros. My swashbuckler can put out twice the damage of a brawler and not take aggro.<BR><BR>If you're a competent tank (and you sound like one), sometimes it's the other classes that need to learn how to tone it down. This is even more true of raids, where the MT is getting stunned and debuffed to hell and the DPS is getting supercharged. Unless you have the right classes to tweak aggro around, but... that's a different story for a different day. I'm guessing you didn't tweak out your Mag raid hehe <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Pretty much sums it up.  It is not a one man job making the group and aggro dynamics work.  They need to take some responsibility too, and be more careful.  It sounds like they were pick up groups?  Maybe not, but regardless, it should never be some kind of testosterone charged competition on who can do the most damage, or who can pull aggro off the tank (I've been in too many pick up groups where people seemed to get their jollies from fighting for aggro with me).  You wanna be MT?  Fine, otherwise back the f*ck off and work with me here.  The last thing a healer needs is to be worrying about toggling back and forth between two competing tanks, and healing spike damage to a brawler, scout or mage. :smileymad:

[SageGaspar]

<div><blockquote><hr>ParlMoebius wrote:<div></div>The last thing a healer needs is to be worrying about toggling back and forth between two competing tanks, and healing spike damage to a brawler, scout or mage. :smileymad:<hr></blockquote>Not only that, but think about it -- every time another class gets hit is one less chance at a Hold the Line (I forget the name of the berserker equivalent) proc for you. So if people are peeling aggro, they're not only getting themselves killed, they're making it harder for you to hold aggro against the rest of the raid.</div>

[zormik]

<DIV>First of all your group has a transfer hate skill.  They should of used it.  And you'll see that once you reach lvl70 it's not the scouts that will worry you it's that wizard lol.  That class can dish out so much dps with the right ap settings.  Only problem is they have practically no aggromanagement.  I group with a wizard all the time and it's practically impossible to keep a wizard from getting aggro if (s)he doesn't tone down a lot...</DIV>

[zaratogul]

<P>Another question, kinda along the thread..</P> <P>About pulling and keeping aggro, I've been playing around with methods to do this, sometimes i body pull and then use my berate master II taunt and cyle through violent pledge (or the highest  lv one) with ae and stun CA's.</P> <P>What works better for you guys?  This does change with any given situation, bow/body/taunt pulls, so what I'm trying to say is what method works better to ensure a better chance of maintaining aggro?  Pull with berate and then cycle/spam through the single/group taunts while hitting your AOE CA's to keep aggro?  </P> <P>Hope I'm making sense?</P> <P>TYVM</P>

[ParlMoebius]

<DIV>My personal approach, mind that this can and does change based on scenario.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If its a single target, I'll pull with the bow.  It's worth investing in a good bow (I always go for the long bow, as I switch to close combat immediately after firing that first shot), and good arrows.  You can get a really good chunk of damage off right away.  I've accidentally pulled aggro off the mt myself on occasion early in a fight, just by sitting back and plinking away at the target trying to get my ranged skill up.  I'll usually advise the group to hold off their attacks until I've followed that first shot off with my single target taunt.  As its closing in, I'll fire off my counter-attack CA to boost my dps the minute they start hittin me, and once its closed all the way... then everyone can open their proverbial can of whoop [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For a group, its a little different.  I may or may not use the bow.  The big thing here is that you need to get as much aggro on all the targets as soon as possible, or your healers going to pull one or more of the mobs that you arent hitting, especially a cleric's reactives.  So, I might fire an arrow, launch my group taunt, fire the counter attack proc CA, and start my two most used AE's, Barrage and the spin attack.  You may have other options as far as ae, dependent on your level and AP choices.  I also like to swap between targets if circumstance allows to keep my aggro even accross the target group, and plus I just like to see em all fall at once :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, thats just me!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Ep]

if your pulling and having aggro problems(ping pong, either healer or scout on inc) pull with berate, aoe taunt and your problems should be solved.(or if you have a bit of distance, arrow pull, run back, berate)<div></div>

[Cynto]

<DIV>Also something to remember is that one of our group buffs (I can't remember the name atm) causes everyone in the group that is meleeing to have a chance to berserk, which generates quite a bit of aggro if the right class procs it... a lot, Brigs are especially bad in this instance. I've had times when grouped with Brigands where i've had to drop that buff in order to keep a reasonable amount of aggro because she just wasn't working with me and kept getting aggro on regular group mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basicly, not only do other group members have to be aware of what proc/hate generation buffs they have on, but you have to as well in some instances. Although I have to admit it sounds like the people you were losing aggro to weren't really trying to manage their aggro all that well and assumed you should just be able to deal with it. It's a common problem with a lot of non tank classes.</DIV>

[Kage8]

<div></div>Bruisers Bruisers Bruiser..../shakes headWell 2 things, first they have there built in taunt damage buff up, trust me, ask them to turn it off them target them and MAKE sure its off. Also its a known fact that Bruisers r OVERPOWERED and there getting beat down hard with the nerf bat in LU24. Good they have been takeing agro from me for too long now and im tired of it. ( Edit: This just in there will be no nerf for Bruisers lol, after reading the Bruiser board im glad, I mean i hate seeing a nerf. Were just ganna have to work harder keeping agro off the Bruisers lol)Scouts? i dont normally have trouble with scouts, they do get de-agro skills and can X-fer some of there agro to u, so idk. make sure u got all taunts at adept I, although adept III would rock the Loams r 5pp on my server F that. The one skill i would get adept III is our counter attack/agro proc. At 20% thats awasome.More tips: Cast ur Mitigation buff whenever possible, mad agro....Use Intercept pisses them off. Use Rampage and Open wounds at diff times, NEVER together, cause when one of them is up u will not loose agro. Use ur skills with debuffs on them and knockdown...Most Imporant tip: Berserkers r the WORST Plate tanks at keeping agro, although i hear sk's have a hard time too. The reason for this is cause SOE thinks we will make up for the agro with dps, wich of course we cant do WITH A SHIELD AND IN DEF STANCE! Very irritating, try tanking with a sword/shield in Off stance or with 2h in Def stance. Your grp should know that and not open up with spells like Icecomet and such. Our special agro skill (The one where we have 20% chance to gain agro when we get hit) Dont work if were not getting hit so others need to know that and adjust there dps acordingly.About raids. I didnt know Zerkers could tank raids. I dont and never have, ur Guild should look for Guard's for that. But again i dont know as i have never tried.Oh and one more thing ur a Zerker if some maby pamby pansy scout is giveing u crap about agro dont take it pls. Tell him "Watch ur dps u little runt or ill use u as a shield"....and always open a grp up with a macro "You pull it, you tank it"Skullz Kage70 BerserkerBlackburrow"Any [Removed for Content] can get agro, the good dps classes dont."<div></div><p>Message Edited by Kage848 on <span class=date_text>06-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:09 PM</span>

[wwd2]

<DIV>Epyx?  You said: 'pull with berate'?  Not sure I understand.  It's a real effective aggro AOE that would pull everything in the room!  How would I single out mobs with an AOE taunt?  I guess this after you've singled them out and pulled them from the herd.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a big fan of bow pulling.  I like the distance and the accuracy.  I usually hit the bow, hit my 'Weapon Aegis' then taunt as they come into range.  If it's linked mobs, then I use my group taunt, then spam my AOE and group attacks.  If the rest of my group waits until after the taunt then I don't usually lose aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I save Rampage and Open Wounds for the bad times, and Berate as well, since they have slow recast timers.  Bad times being a bunch of ungrouped adds usually.  I think of using Berate when it's time to die.  Seems everytime I use it the mobs come pouring out of the woodwork, appearing out of nowhere like the floodgates opened.  Maybe it's just panicked memories, but 50% of the time Berate=Suicide.  I obviously need to learn to work it better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Leyek Hluillsdottir</DIV> <DIV>62 (and a half!|) Berserker</DIV> <DIV>Lucan D'Lere</DIV>

[KhayosAD]

<DIV>Very important lesson here Leyek</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Green" spells are encounter-only.  That means they will only apply to the mob you pulled and any linked mobs.  Destruction, Berate & Stunning Howl are encounter-only.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Blue" spells are PBAOE, which will pull outside of an encounter.  This includes Insolent Gibe and Open Wounds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Distinguishing the two can make or break your group in zones with lots of mobs.</DIV>

[Ep]

if your pulling a group encounter (more than 1) and as you inc, one of those mobs will run for the healer, probably you had a reactive set off and since you only really have body proximity aggro on the other mobs(the mobs you didn't hit with an arrow to pull) they goto the guy who's high on the hate list and that'll be the one who casted the reactive.If you pull with berate tho, you'll affect all the mobs in the encounter, resisted or not, you've "hit them" sort to speak and you won't have to worry about mobs running for your healers as you inc, since they set off a reactive.or as i said b4, pull with an arrow and as they inc, berate then.berate is encounter based, not to be confused with insolent gibe, encounter wide pbaoe<div></div>

[KhayosAD]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kage848 wrote:<BR> Bruisers Bruisers Bruiser..../shakes head<BR><BR>Most Imporant tip: Berserkers r the WORST Plate tanks at keeping agro, although i hear sk's have a hard time too. The reason for this is cause SOE thinks we will make up for the agro with dps, wich of course we cant do WITH A SHIELD AND IN DEF STANCE! Very irritating, try tanking with a sword/shield in Off stance or with 2h in Def stance. Your grp should know that and not open up with spells like Icecomet and such. Our special agro skill (The one where we have 20% chance to gain agro when we get hit) Dont work if were not getting hit so others need to know that and adjust there dps acordingly.<BR><BR>About raids. I didnt know Zerkers could tank raids. I dont and never have, ur Guild should look for Guard's for that. But again i dont know as i have never tried.<BR><BR>Skullz Kage<BR>70 Berserker<BR>Blackburrow<BR><BR>"Any [Removed for Content] can get agro, the good dps classes dont."<BR> <P>Message Edited by Kage848 on <SPAN class=date_text>06-07-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:09 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Just a quick response.  I'm a raid tank and have done lots of T7 content (including Deathtoll).</P> <P>Berserkers using taunts only will have a very tough time and you're spot on about the DPS bit.  We hold aggro best by doing damage, one of the main reasons I've maxed out my +crit % AA.  And definately allow a few seconds to get and keep aggro.  I typically have a dirge and coercer in my MT group to help with hate production.</P> <P>Like most things in this game, it comes down to your gear and how well equipped you are with mitigation and Master/Adept3 spells.<BR></P>

[KhayosAD]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Epyx wrote:<BR>if your pulling a group encounter (more than 1) and as you inc, one of those mobs will run for the healer, probably you had a reactive set off and since you only really have body proximity aggro on the other mobs(the mobs you didn't hit with an arrow to pull) they goto the guy who's high on the hate list and that'll be the one who casted the reactive.<BR><BR>If you pull with berate tho, you'll affect all the mobs in the encounter, resisted or not, you've "hit them" sort to speak and you won't have to worry about mobs running for your healers as you inc, since they set off a reactive.<BR><BR>or as i said b4, pull with an arrow and as they inc, berate then.<BR><BR>berate is encounter based, not to be confused with insolent gibe, encounter wide pbaoe<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Or a ward <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Defilers & Mystics how I love thee and mourn your deaths on pulls with resisted taunts.

[Ep]

shamans practice the dark arts anyway, maybe sometimes it's good for them to visit the underworld once in a while to hone thier skills? yea use that arguement next time.<div></div>

[wwd2]

<P>[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]...  Well, my fault, getting 'Gibe' and 'Berate' confused!  DOH!</P> <P>I am understanding now.  Berate is my group taunt.  We are on the same sheet of music then.  These posts would be easier for me if I could be in game at the same time...  I have trouble remembering the names of my CAs.</P> <P>Thanks again.</P>

[Jake_The_Lettuce]

just group with a dirge all the time problem solved :smileyvery-happy:

[HcGlaber]

<BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kage848 wrote:<BR> <BR>About raids. I didnt know Zerkers could tank raids. I dont and never have, ur Guild should look for Guard's for that. But again i dont know as i have never tried.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thanks for perpetuating that myth ......</BLOCKQUOTE>

[SageGaspar]

<div><blockquote><hr>HcGlaber wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <blockquote> <hr> Kage848 wrote: <div></div>About raids. I didnt know Zerkers could tank raids. I dont and never have, ur Guild should look for Guard's for that. But again i dont know as i have never tried. <hr> </blockquote>Thanks for perpetuating that myth ......</blockquote><hr></blockquote>Yeah, if you "don't know and never tried something" why would you then post that you should use another class? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[Kage8]

<div></div>About Zerkers raid tanking.No matter how u put it, wether zerkers can raid tank or not, the Guard's can do it better. And they should be able to. Thats all i mean about getting a Guard to do it. A Guard cant dps like a Zerker so for balanceing issuse they were made the better tanks. Thats just the way it is. Zerkers can tank raid? yes but Guard can do it better.And maby u miss understood me, i ment to say i didnt think Zerkers could tank raids, they could'nt in T5, but i guess now they can. Now i know they can. And Hbglaber, im not perpetuating any myth, i clearly stated i did not know, just what i thougt. If u can tank raids good for u, i was not aware of it.We get dps, sk's get dps, pallys get heals, and Guard's r the best tanks. Thats the way it should be.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Kage848 on <span class=date_text>06-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:09 AM</span>

[wwd2]

<P>Okay, first the good news:  Went to the Roost with the same group with whom I was having so much trouble.  Except now everyone had gone up a level or two...  I was about to cry as I congratulated the Brigand for making 65th.  But he mentored down to 61 and only drew aggro 2-3 times, and  I let him because he used Ruse.  The Wizard only got it once real bad and that was because he nuked before the mob got into taunt range.  Once I made it clear them that I wanted the mob to 'settle' before they unleashed, things went grand.  I actually thanked them for making my job easier.  Oh, and I found out later that the brigand is used to tanking, so I understand his challenge with our first grouping.</P> <P>That leads me to the whole 'who's-the-better-tank' issue.  Whoever can!  Maybe the mechanics favor guardians, but I've seen guardians that can't tank worth crap.  We aren't golf-clubs!  We are players and a good player can drive with a putter (not a golfer either, so forgive the analogy).  If you're in a guild then you know who your tanks are, and you know who the good ones are, regardless of class.  If you're in the pick-up group, begging, then don't get fricking picky!  It's about communication anyway and learning what works (sound like a freaking therapist).  I think some don't try to play their class well in all situations, ie: the nuker that unloads and steals aggro...</P> <P>Oh, and sorry again about the 'Berate'/'Gibe' mix up...  I am still using 'Fearsome Shout' anyway.</P><p>Message Edited by wwd2 on <span class=date_text>06-09-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:42 AM</span>

[KhayosAD]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kage848 wrote:<BR> About Zerkers raid tanking.<BR><BR>No matter how u put it, wether zerkers can raid tank or not, the Guard's can do it better. And they should be able to. Thats all i mean about getting a Guard to do it. A Guard cant dps like a Zerker so for balanceing issuse they were made the better tanks. Thats just the way it is. Zerkers can tank raid? yes but Guard can do it better.<BR><BR>And maby u miss understood me, i ment to say i didnt think Zerkers could tank raids, they could'nt in T5, but i guess now they can. Now i know they can. And Hbglaber, im not perpetuating any myth, i clearly stated i did not know, just what i thougt. If u can tank raids good for u, i was not aware of it.<BR><BR>We get dps, sk's get dps, pallys get heals, and Guard's r the best tanks. Thats the way it should be.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Kage848 on <SPAN class=date_text>06-09-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:09 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Actually, to be more specific for plate tanks:</P> <P>Guardians have the best taunts and big hit damage absorber (Tower of Stone), medium mitigation (they rely totally on gear) and high Heat resist</P> <P>Berserkers have AOE DPS, high mitigation (our defensive stance at master gives +480mit) and high Cold resist.</P> <P>Paladins have heals, amends (for aggro generation), high mitigation (self/group buffs) and high Mental/Magic resist.</P> <P>Shadowknights have single target DPS, medium mitigation, debuffs and high Disease resist.</P> <P> </P>

[aias]

<DIV>Another derailed thread.  :smileysad:</DIV>

[KhayosAD]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kosmetas wrote:<BR> <DIV>Another derailed thread.  :smileysad:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thanks for your contribution.

[aias]

<DIV>Wasn't in response to your post, Bulivyf.  I agree with your post.  The whole zerk v. guard thing is annoying. </DIV>

[Kage8]

Your right the Zerker vs Gaurd thing is not what this thread is about.My prob and response to the orginal post is that we r excpected to keep agro mostly through our dps. Prob is to tank alot of the time we have to go all out Def. Def stance and sword and sheild, and that cuts our dps by a huge amount.Alot of the time i also have trouble keeping agro, but we can only do what we can do with the tools the Devs have givin us. I hope they give us some kind of agro boost, cause i am called on to tank in almost every non-raid grp im in and im getting sick of being OOP and looseing agro all the time.Maby take the Str AA line 10% agro boost and make it Toggle-able....??? sounds good to me...=0)Skullz Kage70 ZerkerBlackburrow<div></div>

[aias]

It could very well be the others in your group not playing wisely and button mashing from the start.  Guards aren't immune from button mashers either.  Even in offensive stance, when fusion hits it will likely pull aggro.  So the players need to know what they're doing and when to hit they're big nukes.  :robottongue: