New Expansion to bring Sub-class specific abilities. Guardian and Berserker AA's will Split

[Silelwen]

Was just reading this E3 preview.<i>http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2874&Itemid=2These are across the board additions though, which means new tweaking – the Achievement system now has sub-class abilities for additional customization</i>This appears to me to mean that Guardians will gain AA abilities that only they will have, and Berserkers will gain AA abilities only we will have. Now to me, comparing to our marquee lvl65 spells, I can only speculate what this will mean for the different class roles. I'm going out on a limb and saying that our abilities will be more offensive, and guardians will be defensive.<div></div>

[SugarGirl]

<DIV> I'm going out on a limb and saying that our abilities will be more offensive, and guardians will be defensive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Of this, there is no doubt. </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV>

[Excedren]

hey bro, Whats up its Excedren, nice too see you still aroundExidius Befallen's Mofo<div></div>

[Silelwen]

<div><blockquote><hr>Excedren wrote:hey bro, Whats up its Excedren, nice too see you still aroundExidius Befallen's Mofo<div></div><hr></blockquote>Hey man, I'm hanging on by a thread, lol. Still doing the crafting thing, but been playing a little Eve Online lately as I'm bored with adventuring.</div>

[Ridea]

<DIV>yea our AAs will probably end up offensive, which is really nice</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Now who out of the Guardian wannabes around here wants to eat his hat first? Warned you guys this would happen, but nooooo, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] would i know huh?</P> <P>I can only welcome a change like this with open arms because quite honestly, im really sick of getting generic abilitys that another class can use or uses.</P> <P>My thought on this is, i only hope they make it worth tha spilt for us if we are to take on a more Offensive / DPS orientated role, cause if i become seriously gimped and somewhat a middle man were i cant tank no more or DPS like a Brawler, lets just say that by the time that expasion comes out, there will be a few other games around that are sparking alot of intrest.</P> <P>Ill be honest, this expasion will make or break this game for me, so i hope Sony do something right here.</P>

[Shah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Silelwen wrote:<BR><I><BR></I>This appears to me to mean that Guardians will gain AA abilities that only they will have, and Berserkers will gain AA abilities only we will have. Now to me, comparing to our marquee lvl65 spells, I can only speculate what this will mean for the different class roles. I'm going out on a limb and saying that our abilities will be more offensive, and guardians will be defensive.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Interesting, when I read it I didn't come to that conclusion at all.  I thought they were indicating that within say the Wisdom line you will get further choices to refine the skill, but that it would be individual choice in that you could choose your specialty. </P> <P>This would make sense given the focus on the existing system where they say that it allows players to specialise and therefore individualise their characters, but if you force all the zerkers to choose one type and all the guardians to choose another then that would detract from the whole individualisation concept. </P> <P>Of course I could be way off track here, it has been known to happen :smileywink:</P> <P>Either way, I am looking forward to it - I enjoy the idea of individualising my characters to suit my play style. <BR></P>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shahut wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Silelwen wrote:<BR><I><BR></I>This appears to me to mean that Guardians will gain AA abilities that only they will have, and Berserkers will gain AA abilities only we will have. Now to me, comparing to our marquee lvl65 spells, I can only speculate what this will mean for the different class roles. I'm going out on a limb and saying that our abilities will be more offensive, and guardians will be defensive.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Interesting, when I read it I didn't come to that conclusion at all.  I thought they were indicating that within say the Wisdom line you will get further choices to refine the skill, but that it would be individual choice in that you could choose your specialty. </P> <P>This would make sense given the focus on the existing system where they say that it allows players to specialise and therefore individualise their characters, but if you force all the zerkers to choose one type and all the guardians to choose another then that would detract from the whole individualisation concept. </P> <P>Of course I could be way off track here, it has been known to happen :smileywink:</P> <P>Either way, I am looking forward to it - I enjoy the idea of individualising my characters to suit my play style. <BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><EM><STRONG><U>the Achievement system now has sub-class abilities for additional customization</U></STRONG></EM></P> <P>This part here sort of spells it out. By the way, what you said about individualise has already happened, Guardians do nothing but go down the STA / AGI paths. Some zerkers seem to think this is the best choice also, i think otherwise though.</P>

[Silelwen]

<div><blockquote><hr>Shahut wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Silelwen wrote:<i></i>This appears to me to mean that Guardians will gain AA abilities that only they will have, and Berserkers will gain AA abilities only we will have. Now to me, comparing to our marquee lvl65 spells, I can only speculate what this will mean for the different class roles. I'm going out on a limb and saying that our abilities will be more offensive, and guardians will be defensive. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Interesting, when I read it I didn't come to that conclusion at all.  I thought they were indicating that within say the Wisdom line you will get further choices to refine the skill, but that it would be individual choice in that you could choose your specialty. </p> <p>This would make sense given the focus on the existing system where they say that it allows players to specialise and therefore individualise their characters, but if you force all the zerkers to choose one type and all the guardians to choose another then that would detract from the whole individualisation concept. </p> <p>Of course I could be way off track here, it has been known to happen :smileywink:</p> <p>Either way, I am looking forward to it - I enjoy the idea of individualising my characters to suit my play style. </p><hr></blockquote>I do see your point and agree it could go that way possibly. What made me think it would be different is right now I would break down this game --> Archetype(Fighter) --> Class(Warrior) --> Subclass(Berserker/Guardian) and since warriors have the same AA skills, I instantly got the idea that subclass refers to what I shown, instead of AA Line. I still think it's a stretch to interpret subclass referring to AA lines unique abilities, this would really just be adding more abilities to the AA line right?Anyways, it's to early for me to say told ya so to all the berserkers who constantly try to say our class is destined to be the premier raid tank, when majority of the population off many initial impressions would say guardians would fill that role. This game generalizes to much, and I think SOE is beginning to realize that EQ2's failure as a game is it's lack of uniqueness when it comes to virtually every aspect of the game. Evidenced by the 1-20 archtype change, the addition of sub-class specific gear, etc. It was only time for them to take it one step further. To put each subclass into it's own designated slot for raids and adventuring.</div>

[Terron]

<blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<div></div> <p>This part here sort of spells it out. By the way, what you said about individualise has already happened, Guardians do nothing but go down the STA / AGI paths. </p> <p><font color="#ccff00">My guardian is not going down the STA/AGI path.</font> </p> <hr></blockquote><div></div>

[Dimgl]

<DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>I think this is a good and interesting change. I also think that the subclass achievement system probably won't be anywhere near as powerful or as shaping as the normal achievement system. I say that because SOE is very keen on keeping subclasses in parallel, very often having mirror lines that achieve similar effects with different methods. The class achievement system was the first time that major differentiations were offered, and in many ways they've radically changed the game, encounters were made much tougher in KOS, and many characters gained very significant boosts to their abilities, but while the bonuses are nice, they are still comparable in overall benefits due to how parallel the trees are. (Stat -> Combat Art -> Offensive Bonus -> Defensive Bonus -> Ultimate.) So someone who chose to go down STR can be directly compared to someone who went down WIS, both in improvements to offense and improvements to tanking. But even beyond that since both members of a class are able to access these bonuses their subclasses can remain relatively balanced on the premise of lines being similar, and both subclasses having access to them all.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>I would expect the subclass achievement lines to work on improving specific skills/combat arts inherent in a class more than offering differentiated passive bonuses. I say that because recently we have seen the introduction of items with "focus" abilities, that lay the groundwork for specific combat art modification. I also hope that the subclass achievement system isn't simply more tiers tacked onto the bottom of the existing achievement tree, I would like to see it as its own system that allows you to build from scratch within it. If they do add lots of new abilities, and passives I expect them to come with more and more restrictions and tradeoffs, many of them likely very high-cost. Some people may eventually see the half-naked leather armor loincloth berserker who does DPS like a scout they've always wanted and others may see the wall of spiked steel that grinds forward and slowly crushes everything in its path that they've always wanted.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>It'll be really interesting, I've always been a fan of horizontal and specialized progression, so I really like they're heading with this.</FONT></DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dimglow wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>I think this is a good and interesting change. I also think that the subclass achievement system probably won't be anywhere near as powerful or as shaping as the normal achievement system. I say that because SOE is very keen on keeping subclasses in parallel, very often having mirror lines that achieve similar effects with different methods. The class achievement system was the first time that major differentiations were offered, and in many ways they've radically changed the game, encounters were made much tougher in KOS, and many characters gained very significant boosts to their abilities, but while the bonuses are nice, they are still comparable in overall benefits due to how parallel the trees are. (Stat -> Combat Art -> Offensive Bonus -> Defensive Bonus -> Ultimate.) So someone who chose to go down STR can be directly compared to someone who went down WIS, both in improvements to offense and improvements to tanking. But even beyond that since both members of a class are able to access these bonuses their subclasses can remain relatively balanced on the premise of lines being similar, and both subclasses having access to them all.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Up until now yes they have tried to keep everything in line and balanced between two sub-classes which i hate to be quite honest. Everyone is generic. The introduction of Sub-class only abilitys will change all this and rightfully so as we all should be unquie in one way or another. I wouldnt go as far as to say that KoS has been much harder, they have just created a well thought out Expasion with mobs that acually pose a challenge now.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dimglow wrote: <DIV><FONT color=#00cc99>I would expect the subclass achievement lines to work on improving specific skills/combat arts inherent in a class more than offering differentiated passive bonuses. I say that because recently we have seen the introduction of items with "focus" abilities, that lay the groundwork for specific combat art modification. I also hope that the subclass achievement system isn't simply more tiers tacked onto the bottom of the existing achievement tree, I would like to see it as its own system that allows you to build from scratch within it. If they do add lots of new abilities, and passives I expect them to come with more and more restrictions and tradeoffs, many of them likely very high-cost. Some people may eventually see the half-naked leather armor loincloth berserker who does DPS like a scout they've always wanted and others may see the wall of spiked steel that grinds forward and slowly crushes everything in its path that they've always wanted.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Exactally, and thats what i would like to see, trade offs so extreme you will see a half naked lioncloth wearing Dual axe weilding mad man foaming at the mouth coming at you like there is no tomorrow.</P> <P>I dont expect subclass achievement lines to work on improving specific skills/combat arts inherent to a class, i expect the new armor sets that will come with certain bonuses to do that, like they have already shown us with the relic armor, relic armor is but a mild taste of what set bonses will apply once they do come through with it.</P> <P>Lets use this as a example of how they could potentially bring set bonses to the game, lets look at Relic and use this as a example, we have a effect on the BP and Legs, now if you wear the full set, it could another 100hp, 100 power and 100 to mitigation, just a example, but at the same time, you could potentially get a set bonsus that will help DPS for chain wearers, lets say for example 100 HP, 100 Power +70 atk rating 3% chance to crit, so whats the trade off for a Berserker? Plate for tanking, Chain for DPSing. The possibilitys are endless and so are combinations, for some classes anyway.<BR><BR></P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>05-04-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:52 PM</span>

[Bremer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- schrieb:<BR> <P>Now who out of the Guardian wannabes around here wants to eat his hat first? Warned you guys this would happen, but nooooo, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] would i know huh?</P> <P>I can only welcome a change like this with open arms because quite honestly, im really sick of getting generic abilitys that another class can use or uses.</P> <P>My thought on this is, i only hope they make it worth tha spilt for us if we are to take on a more Offensive / DPS orientated role, cause if i become seriously gimped and somewhat a middle man were i cant tank no more or DPS like a Brawler, lets just say that by the time that expasion comes out, there will be a few other games around that are sparking alot of intrest.</P> <P>Ill be honest, this expasion will make or break this game for me, so i hope Sony do something right here.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Before KoS you said that guardians will get better relic better armor and better achievments and both was wrong.</P> <P>Nobody knows what ideas SOE has, maybe Guardians will only be given the possibilities to do more damage (like Inqui/Templars-aa, which is almost only for increasend offense) and Beserkers can decide if they want to do more damage and play like a monk (in groups almost only dd and only tank if the 1st tank dies, the way people who like juggernaut want it) and tanking zerkers will get (as compensation because juggernaut sucks so terribly) possibilities to focus more on defense.</P> <P>Who knows, time will tell.</P>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- schrieb:<BR> <P>Now who out of the Guardian wannabes around here wants to eat his hat first? Warned you guys this would happen, but nooooo, [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] would i know huh?</P> <P>I can only welcome a change like this with open arms because quite honestly, im really sick of getting generic abilitys that another class can use or uses.</P> <P>My thought on this is, i only hope they make it worth tha spilt for us if we are to take on a more Offensive / DPS orientated role, cause if i become seriously gimped and somewhat a middle man were i cant tank no more or DPS like a Brawler, lets just say that by the time that expasion comes out, there will be a few other games around that are sparking alot of intrest.</P> <P>Ill be honest, this expasion will make or break this game for me, so i hope Sony do something right here.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Before KoS you said that guardians will get better relic better armor and better achievments and both was wrong.</P> <P>Nobody knows what ideas SOE has, maybe Guardians will only be given the possibilities to do more damage (like Inqui/Templars-aa, which is almost only for increasend offense) and Beserkers can decide if they want to do more damage and play like a monk (in groups almost only dd and only tank if the 1st tank dies, the way people who like juggernaut want it) and tanking zerkers will get (as compensation because juggernaut sucks so terribly) possibilities to focus more on defense.</P> <P>Who knows, time will tell.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Huh? Please do go back through my 2k+ posts and quote me where i said that, i mean i had no clue Relic even exsisted until people started discovering it and linking it in the Berserker world wide channel, so id love to know where i said this.</P> <P>Off the top of my head, i believe i said that Guardians will become the more effcient tank over us and that KoS will be the beginning of it all with the Achievement Ability introduction, i never said it will all happen with KoS. :smileywink: I also went onto say that we would be able to go a more Offensive path, which proved true with the AA paths we already get now. If you think for a second that they will compensate us with something for Juggernaut being a as you call it "terrible" skill, you must be dreaming.</P> <P>Going to be alot of sorry Zerkers when the Sub-Class abilitys come out, i can feel it now. What entriges me most of all is, the combination of Set Bonus armor + Achievement Abilitys, just imagine the possibilitys that lie here, EQlive didnt even go as far as to introduce Armor Set bonuses, cant wait to see what eventuates from this and may stop me from moving to Vanguard as soon as i thought i would.</P>

[Bremer]

<P>No1: (from juggernaut thread)</P> <P>"wait until some of you see our Relic armor, im going to laugh so hard when you Zerker wannabe Guardians come here crying on the boards about it lol, cant wait for that show."</P> <P>No2 (from Will KoS address Berserkers as Tanks vs Melee DPS for raids)</P> <P>"At the end of the day, the Achievement System is coming and id be willing to beat large amounts of coin that we get two paths to chose from:</P> <OL> <LI>More Defenisve <LI>More Offensive</LI></OL> <P>Also, no i dont believe we will contuine on the straight and narrow of being a very compareable tank to a Guardian, seeing they are going to be hands down a even better tank even again when it comes to the Achievement System because they are already a pure Defensive tanks with basically no offensive ability what so ever.</P> <P>Sure your going to see us still tanking, but we are going to move back a spot even more, BUT thats upto the player on where he wants to take his Berserker. Your going to see abilitys that define us more to the Berserker side of things instead of a Tank / Mediocre DPS. Where a Pallie / Guard on the other hand will begin to shine when adding there new found abilitys from the achievement system.</P> <P>People who think otherwise are delusional and just hoping that this isnt whats going to happen, but to be honest im ready for a path to chose and ill probally go a Defensive path with a hint of DPS in there too, maybe, all depends on what i can chose.</P> <P>But i will say this, Guardians and Paladins are going to become better tanks if they follow a Defensive line then we will be able to become even if we follow a defensive line, simply because it doesnt matter how much ability we put into a Defensive line, we will still be a Berserker, a war machine.</P> <P>I have a funny feeling alot of Berserkers are going to be seriously upset when it comes to the Achievement System choices we get compared to other classes, and no you cant use the Arch Type system as your sole reason to balance anymore because there wont be no arch type system ethier."</P> <P> </P>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR> <P>No1: (from juggernaut thread)</P> <P>"wait until some of you see our Relic armor, im going to laugh so hard when you Zerker wannabe Guardians come here crying on the boards about it lol, cant wait for that show."</P> <P>No2 (from Will KoS address Berserkers as Tanks vs Melee DPS for raids)</P> <P>"At the end of the day, the Achievement System is coming and id be willing to beat large amounts of coin that we get two paths to chose from:</P> <OL> <LI>More Defenisve <LI>More Offensive</LI></OL> <P>Also, no i dont believe we will contuine on the straight and narrow of being a very compareable tank to a Guardian, seeing they are going to be hands down a even better tank even again when it comes to the Achievement System because they are already a pure Defensive tanks with basically no offensive ability what so ever.</P> <P>Sure your going to see us still tanking, but we are going to move back a spot even more, BUT thats upto the player on where he wants to take his Berserker. Your going to see abilitys that define us more to the Berserker side of things instead of a Tank / Mediocre DPS. Where a Pallie / Guard on the other hand will begin to shine when adding there new found abilitys from the achievement system.</P> <P>People who think otherwise are delusional and just hoping that this isnt whats going to happen, but to be honest im ready for a path to chose and ill probally go a Defensive path with a hint of DPS in there too, maybe, all depends on what i can chose.</P> <P>But i will say this, Guardians and Paladins are going to become better tanks if they follow a Defensive line then we will be able to become even if we follow a defensive line, simply because it doesnt matter how much ability we put into a Defensive line, we will still be a Berserker, a war machine.</P> <P>I have a funny feeling alot of Berserkers are going to be seriously upset when it comes to the Achievement System choices we get compared to other classes, and no you cant use the Arch Type system as your sole reason to balance anymore because there wont be no arch type system ethier."</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>One thing to note before i begin, notice everything i said here was before we even knew anything about the Achievement System, when i posted this we didnt even know what were in store to get, with that being said lets move on.</P> <P>Exactally what i said though, and a nice quote im glad you used this one, notice there is no mention of me saying there that it will all happen at the exact time KoS is launched, ill go one better and bet you all my money in my pocket as we speak, that i also stated back then before knowing anything about the Achievement System that i said the difference will get even bigger when they start to add more class defining abilitys in, just like they did in EQ1 my friend where the first lot of AA was generic, just like it is here right now, but generic between two classes instead of 24, ill go one even further and bet you that the Sub Class achievement abilitys will be on a seperate Tab next to the Acheivement System Tab that is going to make our classes even more stand alone and no more of this Guardians riding our backs and we ride theirs.</P> <P>Have you noticed all the adjustments to DPS lately Bremer? What makes you think that we arent in line, cause ill stand here and tell you right here right now that i can out damage a Ranger reguardless of wether im tanking or not, i can even keep up with certain Scouts ( Brigands / Swashies ) on terms of DPS wether or not its 1 target or 5 targets ( 5 targets im obviously beating every class alive ), wether tanking or not, we are overpowered once again and i expect changes to come. Hell i can out damage any Bard class at the moment with just Auto Attack running.</P> <P>Also note the section where you took the Relic armor quote, that had nothing to do with us being any worse then Guardians, it was all to do with the effects that were on the armor, your point it totally MOOT.</P> <P>We are going to become more Offensive OR we might alos get a choice again to go ethier way, but in the end it makes no difference, Guardians will always be the better tank, i dont care how people try to play the violin.</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>09:56 PM</span>

[Lechac]

<div></div>And in our next episode, Taemek explains us why we'll never need more than 640 KB of Ram.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Lechacal on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:25 AM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lechacal wrote:<BR> And in our next episode, Taemek explains us why we'll never need more than 640 KB of Ram.<BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Lechacal on <SPAN class=date_text>05-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:25 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Is it even possible to get 640 KB of ram?</P> <P>Anyways, im not always right but im not always wrong ethier, we will see what happens, but i can bet its something along the lines of what im talking about, up until this point, Sony has been pretty clear on what there intentions are, and you can almost read it like a book, especially since LU13.</P>

[Bremer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- schrieb:<BR> <BR> <P>One thing to note before i begin, notice everything i said here was before we even knew anything about the Achievement System, when i posted this we didnt even know what were in store to get, with that being said lets move on.</P> <P>Exactally what i said though, and a nice quote im glad you used this one, notice there is no mention of me saying there that it will all happen at the exact time KoS is launched, ill go one better and bet you all my money in my pocket as we speak, that i also stated back then before knowing anything about the Achievement System that i said the difference will get even bigger when they start to add more class defining abilitys in, just like they did in EQ1 my friend where the first lot of AA was generic, just like it is here right now, but generic between two classes instead of 24, ill go one even further and bet you that the Sub Class achievement abilitys will be on a seperate Tab next to the Acheivement System Tab that is going to make our classes even more stand alone and no more of this Guardians riding our backs and we ride theirs.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>In the KoS thread you said guardians will get better achivements, (of course you didn't mention KoS because it was obvious you meant KoS). So when you now say again Guardians will get better achievments you are obviously talking about the next expansion after the next?</FONT></P> <P>Have you noticed all the adjustments to DPS lately Bremer? What makes you think that we arent in line, cause ill stand here and tell you right here right now that i can out damage a Ranger reguardless of wether im tanking or not, i can even keep up with certain Scouts ( Brigands / Swashies ) on terms of DPS wether or not its 1 target or 5 targets ( 5 targets im obviously beating every class alive ), wether tanking or not, we are overpowered once again and i expect changes to come. Hell i can out damage any Bard class at the moment with just Auto Attack running.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Why do you want so badly that Beserker dps and tanking capabilities are nerfed? If you hate your zerker for being a good tank which can also do a little dps than play another class.</FONT></P> <P>Also note the section where you took the Relic armor quote, that had nothing to do with us being any worse then Guardians, it was all to do with the effects that were on the armor, your point it totally MOOT.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>You obviously hoped that Guardians will get better armor than zerkers, don't know why.</FONT></P> <P>We are going to become more Offensive OR we might alos get a choice again to go ethier way, but in the end it makes no difference, Guardians will always be the better tank, i dont care how people try to play the violin.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>So, you are saying we are allready doing too much damage and you think that we will gain even more damage?<BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- schrieb:<BR> <BR> <P>One thing to note before i begin, notice everything i said here was before we even knew anything about the Achievement System, when i posted this we didnt even know what were in store to get, with that being said lets move on.</P> <P>Exactally what i said though, and a nice quote im glad you used this one, notice there is no mention of me saying there that it will all happen at the exact time KoS is launched, ill go one better and bet you all my money in my pocket as we speak, that i also stated back then before knowing anything about the Achievement System that i said the difference will get even bigger when they start to add more class defining abilitys in, just like they did in EQ1 my friend where the first lot of AA was generic, just like it is here right now, but generic between two classes instead of 24, ill go one even further and bet you that the Sub Class achievement abilitys will be on a seperate Tab next to the Acheivement System Tab that is going to make our classes even more stand alone and no more of this Guardians riding our backs and we ride theirs.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>In the KoS thread you said guardians will get better achivements, (of course you didn't mention KoS because it was obvious you meant KoS). So when you now say again Guardians will get better achievments you are obviously talking about the next expansion after the next?</FONT></P> <P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Dont take what im saying out of context, i never said or implied that KoS would be end all for us, i said it would be the beginning of a change or more or less a choice, a choice with large negative side effects envolved with them ie: Reduce Mitigation for DPS or visa versa. Juggernaut already proves that for us, it may have not been a Achievement Ability but its a CA none the less and does exactally that, reduces out tankability for DPS.</P> <P>Guardians might get a few new Achievement Abilitys that gives them a edge in groups or raiding but it will be revovled around tanking i can assure you, but for us it will be more or less around Offense, seeing we are the Offensive tank.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- schrieb:<BR> <P>Have you noticed all the adjustments to DPS lately Bremer? What makes you think that we arent in line, cause ill stand here and tell you right here right now that i can out damage a Ranger reguardless of wether im tanking or not, i can even keep up with certain Scouts ( Brigands / Swashies ) on terms of DPS wether or not its 1 target or 5 targets ( 5 targets im obviously beating every class alive ), wether tanking or not, we are overpowered once again and i expect changes to come. Hell i can out damage any Bard class at the moment with just Auto Attack running.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Why do you want so badly that Beserker dps and tanking capabilities are nerfed? If you hate your zerker for being a good tank which can also do a little dps than play another class.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What i want is for Sony to get this class right and keep it that way, im tired of them juggling us around, atm we have very high DPS for the strong ability to tank, if Sony want to make us a DPS class, do so, if they want to make us a Tank, do so, i dont care ethier way cause im ethier going to like it or not which ever they decide to do, in the end ill just do what ive done since they began nerfing us way back when they first nerfed Blood Rage, keep my head up and chin out and charge on itno it and make the best of it.</P> <P>You sound like your the one worried about being nerfed here, maybe you know what i speak of when it comes to us being a overpowered class atm? Why do i bring it up here on the forums? Cause im tired of waiting to be nerfed, id rather them just get it over and done with, its going to eventually happen, 1 week, 2 weeks, 2 months, 6 months, it will happen, it may even happen when the new sub class achievement abilities come out and we have a choice, but what is the choice going to be? Reduce tankability for DPS or reduce DPS for Tankability. I already know what most of your answers would be if it comes down t o this because most of your raid leaders or guild leaders are too one sided or blind too see what else a Berserker has to offer to a raid / group that you are all stuck in this frame of mind that we cant do nothing but tank with a slight advantage in DPS.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- schrieb:<BR> <P>Also note the section where you took the Relic armor quote, that had nothing to do with us being any worse then Guardians, it was all to do with the effects that were on the armor, your point it totally MOOT.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>You obviously hoped that Guardians will get better armor than zerkers, don't know why.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Huh? Where did i hope this? Assuming things arent we? I had seen a full set of Guardian Relic armor before i had even seen Berserker Relic armor because a few guilds on our server was farming it before they shut the zone down, so i knew exactally what they were in store for and i had a similar feeling of what we were in store for, once i had seen our Berserker Relic armor we had people parading around like the Armor having some beneficial effect to help us tank better ( besides the significant increase in mitigation ), my point in the post was the effects didnt help us tank at all, all they did was increase the DPS output we could do, seeing when you look at it from a raid tank point of view, Demolish cant stun epics, so all its good for is DPS, from a group point of viw, alot of stuff in KoS is immune to Stun, again, only useful for DPS.</P> <P>Again, point is moot, has no bearing on your orginal argument you tried to create.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- schrieb:<BR> <P>We are going to become more Offensive OR we might alos get a choice again to go ethier way, but in the end it makes no difference, Guardians will always be the better tank, i dont care how people try to play the violin.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>So, you are saying we are allready doing too much damage and you think that we will gain even more damage?<BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No that isnt what im trying to say at all, again taking what im im trying to say way out of context or just misunderstanding what im trying to say.</P> <P>It all depends how we gain it and if we get nerfed inbetween now and the expasion, which is a possibility. The nerf might not come in the form off a nerf but in the form of sacraficining ALOT of one thing for a good chunk of another, just because people say nerf, doesnt mean there going to flat out nerf us, there is many ways for MMO companys to perform a nerf. At the moment we have the best of both worlds, and are a very very verastile class. We have great DPS buffs for DPS group set up in raids if not tanking, we can also put out a good chunk of DPS when geared and set up correctly, we can also tank almost as good as a Guardian can, probably within 95% as good as them, there is no doubt in my mind we are the best Plate Class Tank on the game, not because of any one skill, but because of the roles we can fill when done correctly.</P> <P>Do not mistake what im saying here, we may or may not get hit by a nerf in between now and the new expasion, we may get some what adjusted by the new Sub Class defining abilitys that we get offered but by choice.<BR></P></DIV>

[Halc]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lechacal wrote:<BR> And in our next episode, Taemek explains us why we'll never need more than 640 KB of Ram.<BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Lechacal on <SPAN class=date_text>05-05-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:25 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>LOL, too funny :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Thanks, you just made my day!!!!</P>

[Halc]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P><BR> Juggernaut already proves that for us, it may have not been a Achievement Ability but its a CA none the less and does exactally that, reduces out tankability for DPS.</P> <P> </P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Which is why 9 out of 10 Berserkers don't even put this usless p.o.c. CA on our hotbar.<BR>

[Silelwen]

The problem I see with quite a few berserkers is they really want to play berserkers as a guardians. You guys can't all be n00bs who rolled your character after LU13 right? Right now, Berserkers in EQ2 are out of touch in the realm of definition that is a Berserker. Berserkers aren't supposed to be main raid tanks, but they are in EQ2... They weren't before LU13 though... Maybe this was intentional... But Berserkers being main raid tanks is out of scope for the definition of what a berserker is supposed to be based upon Lore and previous examples from other games, including this games predecessor EQ1.So, don't be surprised if they take more of our ability to tank away with each patch when it comes to raids. And don't give me this bullcrap that we are losing our power to tank, even a monk could tank a balanced group. We aren't going to lose so much tank effectiveness that we are picked over for a group tank. There is one hell of a large difference between being the raid tank and being the group tank. Expect SOE to continue to lower our tanking ability to where Guardians have to tank raids, but Berserkers will still be great group tanks, just like they can be in EQ1 and other examples.

[Bremer]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- schrieb:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- schrieb:<BR> <BR> <P>One thing to note before i begin, notice everything i said here was before we even knew anything about the Achievement System, when i posted this we didnt even know what were in store to get, with that being said lets move on.</P> <P>Exactally what i said though, and a nice quote im glad you used this one, notice there is no mention of me saying there that it will all happen at the exact time KoS is launched, ill go one better and bet you all my money in my pocket as we speak, that i also stated back then before knowing anything about the Achievement System that i said the difference will get even bigger when they start to add more class defining abilitys in, just like they did in EQ1 my friend where the first lot of AA was generic, just like it is here right now, but generic between two classes instead of 24, ill go one even further and bet you that the Sub Class achievement abilitys will be on a seperate Tab next to the Acheivement System Tab that is going to make our classes even more stand alone and no more of this Guardians riding our backs and we ride theirs.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>In the KoS thread you said guardians will get better achivements, (of course you didn't mention KoS because it was obvious you meant KoS). So when you now say again Guardians will get better achievments you are obviously talking about the next expansion after the next?</FONT></P> <P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Dont take what im saying out of context, i never said or implied that KoS would be end all for us, i said it would be the beginning of a change or more or less a choice, a choice with large negative side effects envolved with them ie: Reduce Mitigation for DPS or visa versa. Juggernaut already proves that for us, it may have not been a Achievement Ability but its a CA none the less and does exactally that, reduces out tankability for DPS.</P> <P>Guardians might get a few new Achievement Abilitys that gives them a edge in groups or raiding but it will be revovled around tanking i can assure you, but for us it will be more or less around Offense, seeing we are the Offensive tank.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>All changes sind lu13 aimed at making tank classes more equal and each desireable (eg making tower=kite shields, lots of fear raid mobs and fear immunity for crusaders). So why should SOE now change their mind and give Guardians improved tanking capabilities, but zerkers not? SOE doesn't want a "one and only" tank and so this will not happen. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>And again, tell me, why do you one the hand say we do too much damage and on the other hand believe that we will get even more damage (even it will be for decreased offense)?<BR> </FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- schrieb:<BR> <P>Have you noticed all the adjustments to DPS lately Bremer? What makes you think that we arent in line, cause ill stand here and tell you right here right now that i can out damage a Ranger reguardless of wether im tanking or not, i can even keep up with certain Scouts ( Brigands / Swashies ) on terms of DPS wether or not its 1 target or 5 targets ( 5 targets im obviously beating every class alive ), wether tanking or not, we are overpowered once again and i expect changes to come. Hell i can out damage any Bard class at the moment with just Auto Attack running.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Why do you want so badly that Beserker dps and tanking capabilities are nerfed? If you hate your zerker for being a good tank which can also do a little dps than play another class.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What i want is for Sony to get this class right and keep it that way, im tired of them juggling us around, atm we have very high DPS for the strong ability to tank, if Sony want to make us a DPS class, do so, if they want to make us a Tank, do so, i dont care ethier way cause im ethier going to like it or not which ever they decide to do, in the end ill just do what ive done since they began nerfing us way back when they first nerfed Blood Rage, keep my head up and chin out and charge on itno it and make the best of it.</P> <P>You sound like your the one worried about being nerfed here, maybe you know what i speak of when it comes to us being a overpowered class atm? Why do i bring it up here on the forums? Cause im tired of waiting to be nerfed, id rather them just get it over and done with, its going to eventually happen, 1 week, 2 weeks, 2 months, 6 months, it will happen, it may even happen when the new sub class achievement abilities come out and we have a choice, but what is the choice going to be? Reduce tankability for DPS or reduce DPS for Tankability. I already know what most of your answers would be if it comes down t o this because most of your raid leaders or guild leaders are too one sided or blind too see what else a Berserker has to offer to a raid / group that you are all stuck in this frame of mind that we cant do nothing but tank with a slight advantage in DPS.</P> <P><BR><FONT color=#ffff00> The tanking capabilites of zerkers are just fine, so I don't fear any nerf.</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- schrieb:<BR> <P>Also note the section where you took the Relic armor quote, that had nothing to do with us being any worse then Guardians, it was all to do with the effects that were on the armor, your point it totally MOOT.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>You obviously hoped that Guardians will get better armor than zerkers, don't know why.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Huh? Where did i hope this? Assuming things arent we? I had seen a full set of Guardian Relic armor before i had even seen Berserker Relic armor because a few guilds on our server was farming it before they shut the zone down, so i knew exactally what they were in store for and i had a similar feeling of what we were in store for, once i had seen our Berserker Relic armor we had people parading around like the Armor having some beneficial effect to help us tank better ( besides the significant increase in mitigation ), my point in the post was the effects didnt help us tank at all, all they did was increase the DPS output we could do, seeing when you look at it from a raid tank point of view, Demolish cant stun epics, so all its good for is DPS, from a group point of viw, alot of stuff in KoS is immune to Stun, again, only useful for DPS.</P> <P>Again, point is moot, has no bearing on your orginal argument you tried to create.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Zerkers have exactly the same relic armor like Guardians. Their bp lowers the timer of a dot and their legs lower the timer of high dmg and pacify spell which doesnt affect epic targets. The spells sound familiar, don't they? So, why do you say that "Guardians wannabes" won't like the armor althoug it is exactly the same like Guardian armor? </FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- schrieb:<BR> <P>We are going to become more Offensive OR we might alos get a choice again to go ethier way, but in the end it makes no difference, Guardians will always be the better tank, i dont care how people try to play the violin.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>So, you are saying we are allready doing too much damage and you think that we will gain even more damage?<BR></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No that isnt what im trying to say at all, again taking what im im trying to say way out of context or just misunderstanding what im trying to say.</P> <P>It all depends how we gain it and if we get nerfed inbetween now and the expasion, which is a possibility. The nerf might not come in the form off a nerf but in the form of sacraficining ALOT of one thing for a good chunk of another, just because people say nerf, doesnt mean there going to flat out nerf us, there is many ways for MMO companys to perform a nerf. At the moment we have the best of both worlds, and are a very very verastile class. We have great DPS buffs for DPS group set up in raids if not tanking, we can also put out a good chunk of DPS when geared and set up correctly, we can also tank almost as good as a Guardian can, probably within 95% as good as them, there is no doubt in my mind we are the best Plate Class Tank on the game, not because of any one skill, but because of the roles we can fill when done correctly.</P> <P>Do not mistake what im saying here, we may or may not get hit by a nerf in between now and the new expasion, we may get some what adjusted by the new Sub Class defining abilitys that we get offered but by choice.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>We will be nerfed or not, at least you have a definite stance :smileytongue:<BR></FONT></P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P>

[Halc]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Silelwen wrote:<BR>The problem I see with quite a few berserkers is they really want to play berserkers as a guardians. You guys can't all be n00bs who rolled your character after LU13 right? Right now, Berserkers in EQ2 are out of touch in the realm of definition that is a Berserker. Berserkers aren't supposed to be main raid tanks, but they are in EQ2... They weren't before LU13 though... Maybe this was intentional... But Berserkers being main raid tanks is out of scope for the definition of what a berserker is supposed to be based upon Lore and previous examples from other games, including this games predecessor EQ1.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>First, I have over 725 played days on my zerker. He was my first char created and the only one that is above level 25. I think I know my zerker pretty well by now :smileywink:</P> <P>Second, zerkers in EQ2 are not and never were meant to be the typical lore and legend zerker. I have never seen a post from a dev that stated that they created us to be a DPS class that can do some tanking. </P> <P>Third, I do remember posts from devs that said that all tank classes were supposed to be able to tank at least some raid mobs. I believe they were posted right before the combat changes.</P> <P>Forth, if you want to play a lore and legend zerker there is another game coming out real soon that will fit you perfectly. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.</P> <P>What you wish the class to be and what they were meant to be in this game are completely different. We are a tank class. We can tank raid mobs. Our DPS is there only to compensate for the little less defensive buffs that guardians get. Where they can take more hits then we can, we can deal more damage then them, therefore ending the fight faster and taking less hits overall. Because we take less hits overall we don't need to be able to take as many hits as the guardian does. This is the way the berserker was designed for this game. This is the way the berserker was supposed to be right from day one. This is the vision the devs had when they allowed us to wear the same plate armor as guardians. And it is the thought they used when they readjusted our combat skills in LU13.<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Halcat on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:16 AM</span>

[Silelwen]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Halcat wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <blockquote> <hr> Silelwen wrote:The problem I see with quite a few berserkers is they really want to play berserkers as a guardians. You guys can't all be n00bs who rolled your character after LU13 right? Right now, Berserkers in EQ2 are out of touch in the realm of definition that is a Berserker. Berserkers aren't supposed to be main raid tanks, but they are in EQ2... They weren't before LU13 though... Maybe this was intentional... But Berserkers being main raid tanks is out of scope for the definition of what a berserker is supposed to be based upon Lore and previous examples from other games, including this games predecessor EQ1. <hr> </blockquote> <p>First, I have over 725 played days on my zerker. He was my first char created and the only one that is above level 25. I think I know my zerker pretty well by now :smileywink:</p> <p>Second, zerkers in EQ2 are not and never were meant to be the typical lore and legend zerker. I have never seen a post from a dev that stated that they created us to be a DPS class that can do some tanking. </p> <p>Third, I do remember posts from devs that said that all tank classes were supposed to be able to tank at least some raid mobs. I believe they were posted right before the combat changes.</p> <p>Forth, if you want to play a lore and legend zerker there is another game coming out real soon that will fit you perfectly. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.</p> <p>What you wish the class to be and what they were meant to be in this game are completely different. We are a tank class. We can tank raid mobs. Our DPS is there only to compensate for the little less defensive buffs that guardians get. Where they can take more hits then we can, we can deal more damage then them, therefore ending the fight faster and taking less hits overall. Because we take less hits overall we don't need to be able to take as many hits as the guardian does. This is the way the berserker was designed for this game. This is the way the berserker was supposed to be right from day one. This is the vision the devs had when they allowed us to wear the same plate armor as guardians. And it is the thought they used when they readjusted our combat skills in LU13.</p></blockquote> <p>Message Edited by Halcat on <span class="date_text">05-05-2006</span> <span class="time_text">11:16 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I'm not going to continue to debate whether Berserkers are done right, but I will say one thing, a game is based off Lore. Also 725 must be your account age, not played as that is my account age also.</div><p>Message Edited by Silelwen on <span class=date_text>05-05-2006</span> <span class=time_text>06:16 PM</span>

[Ep]

<DIV>oh god please don't dig up these ridiculous berserker lore, non eq, class profession discussions again. what was supposed to be is what it is now, if you don't understand that last statement thats how jumbled up these zerker lore only, from launch beta things are, annoyingly confusing and worthless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and [Removed for Content] is up with digging up posts from months back, so far i can barely count them on hand to try to disprove, or prove some1 wrong or whatever, whats the use. Statements and assumptions are made, sometimes for the better sometimes spot on, sometimes dead wrong.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>imo these sub-class only achievements in the next expansion will not be offense only for us. It'll be a varient of the current system, but will be 60/40 in favor of offense, while the guard class will be the other way around, nearly equal but favor 60/40 in favor of defense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if would probably turn out that a fully spec'd out defense zerker would equal a guard who went half and half and a fully spec'd out offensive guard would equal a zerker who spec'd half and half, but there'd be a big enough margin comparing a fully spec'd out defense zerker and a fully spec'd out defense guard and vice versa.</DIV>

[Silelwen]

Well honestly, this is a predecessor to EQ1, it's based off EQ1... lol you gotta be pretty stupid to make the game not resemble it, at least class wise...Now I'm not saying the devs are stupid, but it's obvious all the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] people say why berserkers are why they are, is because the game was rushed out. If the game wasn't rushed out, then who was stupid enough to make the printed manual wrong? I mean give me a break, you can argue me until your nose bleeds and your heart bursts, the game is pretty fooked up.<div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Silelwen wrote:<BR>The problem I see with quite a few berserkers is they really want to play berserkers as a guardians. You guys can't all be n00bs who rolled your character after LU13 right? Right now, Berserkers in EQ2 are out of touch in the realm of definition that is a Berserker. Berserkers aren't supposed to be main raid tanks, but they are in EQ2... They weren't before LU13 though... Maybe this was intentional... But Berserkers being main raid tanks is out of scope for the definition of what a berserker is supposed to be based upon Lore and previous examples from other games, including this games predecessor EQ1.<BR><BR>So, don't be surprised if they take more of our ability to tank away with each patch when it comes to raids. And don't give me this bullcrap that we are losing our power to tank, even a monk could tank a balanced group. We aren't going to lose so much tank effectiveness that we are picked over for a group tank. There is one hell of a large difference between being the raid tank and being the group tank. Expect SOE to continue to lower our tanking ability to where Guardians have to tank raids, but Berserkers will still be great group tanks, just like they can be in EQ1 and other examples.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Exactally, ive voiced my opinion, i may be wrong i may be right, not saying what im saying is set in stone and i know what they are doing, but i can tell from previous changes that this is the direction we are going to go.

[Silelwen]

<div><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Silelwen wrote:The problem I see with quite a few berserkers is they really want to play berserkers as a guardians. You guys can't all be n00bs who rolled your character after LU13 right? Right now, Berserkers in EQ2 are out of touch in the realm of definition that is a Berserker. Berserkers aren't supposed to be main raid tanks, but they are in EQ2... They weren't before LU13 though... Maybe this was intentional... But Berserkers being main raid tanks is out of scope for the definition of what a berserker is supposed to be based upon Lore and previous examples from other games, including this games predecessor EQ1.So, don't be surprised if they take more of our ability to tank away with each patch when it comes to raids. And don't give me this bullcrap that we are losing our power to tank, even a monk could tank a balanced group. We aren't going to lose so much tank effectiveness that we are picked over for a group tank. There is one hell of a large difference between being the raid tank and being the group tank. Expect SOE to continue to lower our tanking ability to where Guardians have to tank raids, but Berserkers will still be great group tanks, just like they can be in EQ1 and other examples. <hr> </blockquote>Exactally, ive voiced my opinion, i may be wrong i may be right, not saying what im saying is set in stone and i know what they are doing, but i can tell from previous changes that this is the direction we are going to go.<hr></blockquote>Well don't people always complain about not being unique? If their going to give uniqueness in the game, it means people need more clear and defined roles. Honestly I think they should make some raids that have to be tanked by berserkers, and some that have to be tanked by guardians. But as it goes, a skilled raid force can roll in with one or the other and get things done.</div>

[Bremer]

<DIV>Rofl, probably the funniest posts I've ever read :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Silelwen wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Silelwen wrote:<BR>The problem I see with quite a few berserkers is they really want to play berserkers as a guardians. You guys can't all be n00bs who rolled your character after LU13 right? Right now, Berserkers in EQ2 are out of touch in the realm of definition that is a Berserker. Berserkers aren't supposed to be main raid tanks, but they are in EQ2... They weren't before LU13 though... Maybe this was intentional... But Berserkers being main raid tanks is out of scope for the definition of what a berserker is supposed to be based upon Lore and previous examples from other games, including this games predecessor EQ1.<BR><BR>So, don't be surprised if they take more of our ability to tank away with each patch when it comes to raids. And don't give me this bullcrap that we are losing our power to tank, even a monk could tank a balanced group. We aren't going to lose so much tank effectiveness that we are picked over for a group tank. There is one hell of a large difference between being the raid tank and being the group tank. Expect SOE to continue to lower our tanking ability to where Guardians have to tank raids, but Berserkers will still be great group tanks, just like they can be in EQ1 and other examples.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Exactally, ive voiced my opinion, i may be wrong i may be right, not saying what im saying is set in stone and i know what they are doing, but i can tell from previous changes that this is the direction we are going to go.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well don't people always complain about not being unique? If their going to give uniqueness in the game, it means people need more clear and defined roles. Honestly I think they should make some raids that have to be tanked by berserkers, and some that have to be tanked by guardians. But as it goes, a skilled raid force can roll in with one or the other and get things done.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thats exactally what i would like to see also, diversity, different formation being able to be used with different thought and frames of mind.</P> <P>I have this uncany feeling that they are going to revert back to some of the old EQLive roots and you will probally see Paladins and Guardians become the better tank classes in the game. While we will probally remain a tank / DPS hybrid more or less, i dont think Tanking will be our main focus on raids, unless of course they begin to design content around specific classes. If they were going to go this direction though, they would of already done it or at least began to design encounters around certain classes already, which they havent really seeing any Plate class tank can basically tank any encounter in the game, some more effciently then others of course.</P> <P>It will be very intresting to see where they go with this i do hope something unquie comes from it Sub - Class wise.</P>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Epyx wrote:<BR> <DIV>imo these sub-class only achievements in the next expansion will not be offense only for us. It'll be a varient of the current system, but will be 60/40 in favor of offense, while the guard class will be the other way around, nearly equal but favor 60/40 in favor of defense.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Exactally, and thats what me and Silelwen are trying to point out, that the disparity will grow between us and Guardians as time goes on.<p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>05-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:36 AM</span>

[Flor]

LOL...been reading some of this  Silelven  guy for a while..sooo funny.Did you guys know he was 100% crafter in EQ1? Did you guys know he is 100% crafter in EQ2? He only leveled his zerker in between combines..never raided, well, here and there..Sorry, but i find it funny how a crafter tries so hard to make his opinions matter.Dude, stick with crafting, you are good at that...but please please please..dont talk about the zerker class, you have NO idea what you are talking about.

[Jvaloth]

<DIV>I hope they dont mess with our defensive capabilities. I happen to enjoy MTing on raids.   To take away access to our defensive AA's and make us go straight DPS is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].    If I wanted to be straight DPS I'd roll a scout or summoner.     </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Initially I went with the STR line as my zerker and did tons of dps via crits etc.       I've now respec'd AA's and max'd out the WIS line and some of the STA line and am loving the extra hps/mitigation.      They can't make huge fundamental changes to well established classes this late in the game.   Talking about giving zerkers chain only and such stuff is utter nonesense.     Making us secondary tanks to Guardians is also equally unacceptable.  We are of the same archetype and should both be stellar plate tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Silelwen]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Florin wrote:LOL...been reading some of this  Silelven  guy for a while..sooo funny.Did you guys know he was 100% crafter in EQ1? Did you guys know he is 100% crafter in EQ2? He only leveled his zerker in between combines..never raided, well, here and there..Sorry, but i find it funny how a crafter tries so hard to make his opinions matter.Dude, stick with crafting, you are good at that...but please please please..dont talk about the zerker class, you have NO idea what you are talking about.<hr></blockquote>You know what Portos, I got nice little post done up just for you, but I really don't want to be an [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. It involves things like 11plate tanks on a raid, my parse figures on raids, my raid attendance, and how carebear eq2 is that a crafter can be a godly raider, oh and it also talks about exchange, eq2risen.com domain lookup info, paypal account info, etc. If you wanna play, we can. Otherwise I would appreciate you not insult me as if you know me and my playstyle. You were long gone before I started raiding... So yea, your insults don't fly. But be glad that I'm not as big an @$$hole as you, but if you want I'll bring it.</div><p>Message Edited by Silelwen on <span class=date_text>05-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>02:39 PM</span>

[FightGame]

lets not assume.  id rather wait to see exactly what we're getting, then argue about whether we think it's right or wrong.

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FightGame wrote:<BR> lets not assume.  id rather wait to see exactly what we're getting, then argue about whether we think it's right or wrong.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Good call, i can agree with that.

[Bremer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jvaloth schrieb:<BR> <DIV>I hope they dont mess with our defensive capabilities. I happen to enjoy MTing on raids.   To take away access to our defensive AA's and make us go straight DPS is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].    If I wanted to be straight DPS I'd roll a scout or summoner.     </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Initially I went with the STR line as my zerker and did tons of dps via crits etc.       I've now respec'd AA's and max'd out the WIS line and some of the STA line and am loving the extra hps/mitigation.      They can't make huge fundamental changes to well established classes this late in the game.   Talking about giving zerkers chain only and such stuff is utter nonesense.     Making us secondary tanks to Guardians is also equally unacceptable.  We are of the same archetype and should both be stellar plate tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You don't have to worry, only Silelwen and Aonein hope this will be happen because they picked the wrong class, but it will never happen.</P> <P> You can quote me after the NDA for the next addon is lifted Aonein :smileywink:</P>

[Silelwen]

<div><blockquote><hr>Bremer wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Jvaloth schrieb: <div>I hope they dont mess with our defensive capabilities. I happen to enjoy MTing on raids.   To take away access to our defensive AA's and make us go straight DPS is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].    If I wanted to be straight DPS I'd roll a scout or summoner.     </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Initially I went with the STR line as my zerker and did tons of dps via crits etc.       I've now respec'd AA's and max'd out the WIS line and some of the STA line and am loving the extra hps/mitigation.      They can't make huge fundamental changes to well established classes this late in the game.   Talking about giving zerkers chain only and such stuff is utter nonesense.     Making us secondary tanks to Guardians is also equally unacceptable.  We are of the same archetype and should both be stellar plate tanks.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>You don't have to worry, only Silelwen and Aonein hope this will be happen because they picked the wrong class, but it will never happen.</p> <p> You can quote me after the NDA for the next addon is lifted Aonein :smileywink:</p><hr></blockquote>You know, I really could careless how this game goes as far as my class. I have pretty much written off the adventure portion of the game and currently have no plans of buying another expansion from SOE. My long-term plans were going to be Vanguard, but now that SOE has picked em up... I don't know. I know I would of enjoyed my class alot better if it were more melee DPS. And I picked berserker based off beta experiences, manual, strategy guide, eq1 experience, etc. I admit, I should of rolled a brawler... But that's because I didn't realize I was getting into a Guardian-wannabe class. Take careful notice that no top tier raiding guild rolls with a berserker, even though they definitely could to win. The differences now, will be much more plan the farther along the expansions get, if you don't want to realize this, that's fine. I'm just stating my opinion, and you yours. I do whole-heartedly believe that berserkers will continue to evolve, and even though 9 out of 10 berserkers supposedly won't use juggernaut, the dev's aren't listening...This is probably the reason why Vanguard, last I heard before SOE got involved, was going to have no live forums. The dev's have their vision, whether it's right or wrong, it's what they will do. I was totally dissatisfied how they approached berserker after LU13, many were happy though so yea... It really is a pointless argument, but it doesn't stop us from arguing it =)</div>

[Jvaloth]

<P>Guardian wannabe class?  I dont think so.    I'd wager to say Guardians wannabe zerkers.</P> <P>If you read the manual as you stated you did, you'd have known you'd be getting a plate wearing dps class when you chose Zerker.   I think we still qualify with that initial description of the class.  MTing on raids I can do 425 dps w/ defensive based AA's.    When I was maxed out on the STR/Crit lines I was doing 600+ consistantly.</P> <P>Not sure why you are complaining about the class?    Zerkers are extremely versatile and really fun to play.    And they most definately CAN  maintank raids.  I think the reason people throw the Guardian in as MT is because they offer nothing else to a raid force but tanking. They can't DPS that well so you have to put em somewhere right?  Its only natural that ya put the guardian in MT role and allow the more versatile class to flourish in whatever roll is needed.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class=date_text>05-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:25 PM</span>

[Silelwen]

<div></div><div></div><div><blockquote><hr>Jvaloth wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>Guardian wannabe class?  I dont think so.    I'd wager to say Guardians wannabe zerkers.</p> <p>If you read the manual as you stated you did, you'd have known you'd be getting a plate wearing dps class when you chose Zerker.   I think we still qualify with that initial description of the class.  MTing on raids I can do 425 dps w/ defensive based AA's.    When I was maxed out on the STR/Crit lines I was doing 600+ consistantly.</p> <p>Not sure why you are complaining about the class?    Zerkers are extremely versatile and really fun to play.    And they most definately CAN  maintank raids.  I think the reason people throw the Guardian in as MT is because they offer nothing else to a raid force but tanking. They can't DPS that well so you have to put em somewhere right?  Its only natural that ya put the guardian in MT role and allow the more versatile class to flourish in whatever roll is needed.</p> <p> Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class="date_text">05-06-2006</span> <span class="time_text">05:25 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I'm totally fine with that opinion. I do want to add that they were supposed to originally put plate into the game. I was one of the top worldwide armorers and there was initially a big fear that vanguard was going to be pulled from pallies, berserkers, sks, templars, and inquisitors. They were supposed to be plate, it just didn't make it into beta because of the rush. They later must of determined it was to much work to create other armor for the other classes, since the original design was supposed to be vanguard was only for guardians and Vanguard was supposed to be the best protection armor of all types of armor, which obviously would be like looking at EQ1 and the class 'Warrior' armor was always much better AC compared to all other classes.</div><p>Also the problem with being the jack-of-all-trades, or versatile, is it usually means you are the master of nothing. I'll be completely honest, I thought berserkers damage would be on par with Monks. Monks give up Mitigation for high Avoidance, Berserkers give up high avoidance for great mitigation. The way this plays out in EQ1, monks are great group tanks, but the second the mobs start hitting for half their health, is the second they can no longer tank. I am rl friends with the 2nd worldwide top monk in EQ1 (an actual major accomplisment in an MMO) and he can tank all kinds of [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], except when it comes to major raid items as his avoidance is great but a couple bad rolls and he is wiped. Difference is warriors can take the blows. Well that's a different game, who would ever want to talk about EQ1 in EQ2, what a dumb fooker I must be.<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Silelwen on <span class=date_text>05-06-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:31 PM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jvaloth wrote:<BR> <P>Guardian wannabe class?  I dont think so.    I'd wager to say Guardians wannabe zerkers.</P> <P>If you read the manual as you stated you did, you'd have known you'd be getting a plate wearing dps class when you chose Zerker.   I think we still qualify with that initial description of the class.  MTing on raids I can do 425 dps w/ defensive based AA's.    When I was maxed out on the STR/Crit lines I was doing 600+ consistantly.</P> <P>Not sure why you are complaining about the class?    Zerkers are extremely versatile and really fun to play.    And they most definately CAN  maintank raids.  I think the reason people throw the Guardian in as MT is because they offer nothing else to a raid force but tanking. They can't DPS that well so you have to put em somewhere right?  Its only natural that ya put the guardian in MT role and allow the more versatile class to flourish in whatever roll is needed.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <SPAN class=date_text>05-06-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:25 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You do know the the Manaul has been changed right? Thats what you can download a brand new version of it that wasnt released with the game. The description of a Berserker used to be inflicts heavy damage to multiple enemies, no where in there did it mention one thing about wearing heavy Vangaurd armor.</P> <P>Berserkers who played in Beta then moved onto Live once it was released didnt even know they could wear Plate armor until they reached lvl 20, it was a ninja change NO ONE knew about until discovered. You have been seriously misinformed.</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>05-07-2006</span> <span class=time_text>01:47 PM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jvaloth schrieb:<BR> <DIV>I hope they dont mess with our defensive capabilities. I happen to enjoy MTing on raids.   To take away access to our defensive AA's and make us go straight DPS is [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].    If I wanted to be straight DPS I'd roll a scout or summoner.     </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Initially I went with the STR line as my zerker and did tons of dps via crits etc.       I've now respec'd AA's and max'd out the WIS line and some of the STA line and am loving the extra hps/mitigation.      They can't make huge fundamental changes to well established classes this late in the game.   Talking about giving zerkers chain only and such stuff is utter nonesense.     Making us secondary tanks to Guardians is also equally unacceptable.  We are of the same archetype and should both be stellar plate tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You don't have to worry, only Silelwen and Aonein hope this will be happen because they picked the wrong class, but it will never happen.</P> <P> You can quote me after the NDA for the next addon is lifted Aonein :smileywink:</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is your whole problem Bremer, stop putting words into peoples mouths.</P> <P>Your afraid of change Bremer, admit it. What i do hope for is that we get put in our rightful place.</P> <P>Juggernaut and Open Wounds are clear examples of what we are meant to be. Has to make you wonder what future CA's will bring to us when they up the tiers right Bremer?</P>

[Bremer]

<P>Guardians get with 65 a spell which lowers avoidance and inflicts damage on the target. So Guardians are supposed to be dds and debuffer Aonein?</P>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>But they can do it while tanking and it doesnt effect there tanking ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Obliterate Master I</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Decreases Deflection and Defense of target by 62<BR>Inflicts 815 - 1359 melee damage on target<BR>Decreases Parry of target by 62</DIV> <DIV><BR>Recast timer of 1 min, 10 second duration and cannot be parried, deflected, riposted or blocked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Juggernaut Master I</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Increases Melee Crit Chance of caster by 27%<BR>Decrease Defense of Caster by 39<BR>Decrease mitigation of caster vs crushing, piercing, heat, magic, divine, disease and posion damage by 1300<BR>All combat arts have their base damage increased<BR>Decrease Parry of caster by 39<BR>Decrease Mitigation of caster vs slashing and cold damage by 1300<BR>This ability can only be used while Berserk!</DIV> <DIV><BR>Recast timer of 3 mins, duration 24 seconds. All attacks made during this period can be parried, deflected, riposted and blocked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now which one do think serves a DPS stance more then tanking?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The whole point here is, Guardians can use theirs while tanking, we can also, but have to be warded constantly, in a group i can use it np with a decent healer or warder, try using it on a raid while tanking though. Guardians can use thiers safely without a worry in the world. We cant, ours is made for DPS.<BR></DIV>

[Bremer]

<P>That's exactyly why juggernaut absolutely sucks and (almost) nobody uses it and whoever designed this spell isn't very capable of spell design.</P> <P>(And both aren't really tanking spells.)</P>

[Tristor]

Calm down ladies, your berserkers.....start acting like it.

[Jvaloth]

<DIV>NT</DIV><p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class=date_text>05-08-2006</span> <span class=time_text>11:01 AM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR> <P>That's exactyly why juggernaut absolutely sucks and (almost) nobody uses it and whoever designed this spell isn't very capable of spell design.</P> <P>(And both aren't really tanking spells.)</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Maybe your just not capabale of accepting the direction they want to take Berserkers, instead of doing it in one big almighty LU like they did change so many things in LU13 in one big giant leap, there doing it little bit by little bit now, not just this class but ALL classes.</P> <P>Take a look at it from this perspective, they removed the complete arch type system, some can argue that the system will still remain in the back ground with no arch type system, im one to not believe they will contuine with this and they will go with more defined stand alone classes over time, look at the CA's we get compaired to Guardians. Sure we get the basics as they do, but there more defined into the role of taking damage, we are more defined into the roll of giving damage. Compare our Buff set with thiers.</P> <P>Its really not hard to look at the boarder side of things other then just looking at what you think the class should be or will be, in any case, i dont really care how we turn out, i can fill a DPS postion just as good as i can fill a Tank postion, it makes no difference to me. Thats the beauty i love about htis class, the ability to be flexiable and versatile.</P>

[pasht]

<P>Normaly I prefer to just read the forum and think my stuf about the posts writen, in this case I think I throw in my opinion.</P> <P>I play a 70 Zerker, created on november 2004 so nearly at the start of the game. I also play a Raid MT on our Casual Raiding Guild (twice a week, T7 and T6). I took every nerf we got, most of them are ok (Blood Rage was too uber, LU13 made the Class more interessting, even with less Hitpoints and less Haste, and so on), some not but thats no problem.</P> <P>With LU13 we got the possiblity to be the MT on Raids, on nearly the same step as Guardians and honestly, thats what I except from the Berserker. Why? Cause we are one side of a medal where the Guardians are the other side. Like Bruisers are to Monks, Swashies are to brigands and so on. Every Class differs somewhat compared to the one on the other side but in the end you can compare them.</P> <P>If SOE wants the Berserker to be "just" a Group Tank and mainly Melee DPS, they should put us somewhere else in the tree of the classes and not right next to the Guardian. Cause to be put in next to guardians means that we are somewhat equal to guardians and not totaly different.</P> <P>I dont care about the fantasy style Berserker, where they fought like madman until they got killed. Its not a fantasy story its game that has its own line (good or bad, thats another discussion). If they make a class system where always 2 sides of a medal are around, they should stick to it. Guardians and Berserkers are still diferent cause they do stuff in a slightly different way.</P> <P>If they gonna change the Berserker to not be able to MT on Raids anymore, EQ2 has died for me. Happily this will happen when there are some serious alternatives to EQ2. And just to be honest, Raid Tanking for some mobs and others not is not a real alternative, since raids are supposed to hold a maximum of 24 players, do you want to have a pool of 6 Tanks on every raid? Or do you want to wait until they can use us as a tank? Great idea...</P> <P>just my 2 coppers</P>

[Silelwen]

<div><blockquote><hr>pashtuk wrote:<div></div> <p>Normaly I prefer to just read the forum and think my stuf about the posts writen, in this case I think I throw in my opinion.</p> <p>I play a 70 Zerker, created on november 2004 so nearly at the start of the game. I also play a Raid MT on our Casual Raiding Guild (twice a week, T7 and T6). I took every nerf we got, most of them are ok (Blood Rage was too uber, LU13 made the Class more interessting, even with less Hitpoints and less Haste, and so on), some not but thats no problem.</p> <p>With LU13 we got the possiblity to be the MT on Raids, on nearly the same step as Guardians and honestly, thats what I except from the Berserker. Why? Cause we are one side of a medal where the Guardians are the other side. Like Bruisers are to Monks, Swashies are to brigands and so on. Every Class differs somewhat compared to the one on the other side but in the end you can compare them.</p> <p>If SOE wants the Berserker to be "just" a Group Tank and mainly Melee DPS, they should put us somewhere else in the tree of the classes and not right next to the Guardian. Cause to be put in next to guardians means that we are somewhat equal to guardians and not totaly different.</p> <p>I dont care about the fantasy style Berserker, where they fought like madman until they got killed. Its not a fantasy story its game that has its own line (good or bad, thats another discussion). If they make a class system where always 2 sides of a medal are around, they should stick to it. Guardians and Berserkers are still diferent cause they do stuff in a slightly different way.</p> <p>If they gonna change the Berserker to not be able to MT on Raids anymore, EQ2 has died for me. Happily this will happen when there are some serious alternatives to EQ2. And just to be honest, Raid Tanking for some mobs and others not is not a real alternative, since raids are supposed to hold a maximum of 24 players, do you want to have a pool of 6 Tanks on every raid? Or do you want to wait until they can use us as a tank? Great idea...</p> <p>just my 2 coppers</p><hr></blockquote>The only thing is our subclass coin system is completely different than all others. Unlike monks/bruisers, etc. We have the choice good or evil. Take this and ponder exactly why the devs did this to our classes? PvP was never an after thought, our entire game design shows the considerations.</div>

[ParlMoebius]

<DIV>Good Gods people!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could swear I was on the Templar boards!</DIV>

[Bremer]

Lu24 will fix intercepts, so now Guardians can do again their job and put Sentry Watch on the Beserker mt to reduce received damage :smileytongue:

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR> Lu24 will fix intercepts, so now Guardians can do again their job and put Sentry Watch on the Beserker mt to reduce received damage :smileytongue:<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I want you to stop and think about who would make a better MT with a Guardian buffing them while using their group and single target Interception skills they get.