Jokernaut? Maybe not...

[SwordsEd]

<DIV>After reading the post about the uselessness of this art, I used it heavily last night in Sanctum just to see what the impact was...or wasnt. Rarely am I not tanking but I had the opportunity yesterday to dual wield and be dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At Adpet I and legendary everything, using the art <U>clearly</U> made a difference. At lvl 66, I did pull aggro from a lvl 70 tank once. I usually lose aggro, not pull it, lol. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, thumbs up on a unique and kind of fun art when not tanking. When tanking it is useless. Could it be better? Yes, but not every art or attack can be an "ice comet". </DIV>

[Rousso]

<P>...you must be joking - because this skill is useless.</P> <P>Blows my mind people defend this worse than useless skill. Sure people will accuse me of whining for pointing out the glaringly obvious - which is there is virtually no situation in which you can fight challenging content and use this skill. On the other hand, I think zerkers flat out rock even without having a real T7 skill. We don't need anything else. I don't care if SOE fixes this bogus waste of a hot bar space or not, but if they are going to take the time and pay a developer to develop a T7 skill for us, well it ought to be one that the majority of us might actually consider using once in a while.</P> <P>Given the incredible penalty it blows my mind that some people claim they can solo heroics with it. Guess the Jokernaut post flushed the ranger post trollers as well as the fanbois. Zerkers rock with or with out this skill - right now I have to rock without it.</P> <P>Rage on!</P> <P>BTW - not a personal attack on swordsedge  - more a response to the other odd responses in the locked post.</P><p>Message Edited by Rousso on <span class=date_text>04-11-2006</span> <span class=time_text>03:12 PM</span>

[Goreth]

I chatted with the dev who is responsible for combat arts and he said there are currently NO plans to change this <span>:smileymad:</span>  He said that it had its use and I said "you mean like in a raid when you aren't tanking..but at the same time want to die?" and he said "yes" lol.  so bad news, I really hope it gets changed but all the devs seemed pretty happy with it atm. Gorethok <Last name nerfed> 70 Berserker of Crushbone Leader of Elysium <div></div>

[SwordsEd]

<P>not taken personally...</P> <P>I think that you are right. However, in some cases, I think it works and is kinda fun. But a very few cases. Like I said...useless when tanking.</P>

[Steelheart]

This is actually a pretty neat offensive ability (when not tanking) when used in conjuntion with rampage/destruction.

[KFizzle]

<div><blockquote><hr>Steelheart wrote:<div></div>This is actually a pretty neat offensive ability (when not tanking) when used in conjuntion with rampage/destruction.<hr></blockquote>You forgot to add "And when you want to get three shotted and killed."</div>

[Steelheart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kfizzle wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Steelheart wrote:<BR> This is actually a pretty neat offensive ability (when not tanking) when used in conjuntion with rampage/destruction.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You forgot to add "And when you want to get three shotted and killed."<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Rarely happens.  This is not a combination to use at the beginning of a battle.  A good Guard should have agro control by the time the raid encounter is at 50% or less.  If you don't spam your attacks between then and the start of the battle you shouldn't gain agro.  I love being able to do good dps, but do it smartly.

[Kolorean Yorito]

I like the skill, the skill idea, I just think the crit chance needs to be upped to around 50%. I enjoy the idea of the old Zerker, where we put out tons of damage, and could steal aggro anytime we wanted. I think there are some good AA options to be used with this skill also. I got a master of it last night, and I am somewhat happy with it, just up the damage.

[Bremer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Steelheart schrieb:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kfizzle wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Steelheart wrote:<BR> This is actually a pretty neat offensive ability (when not tanking) when used in conjuntion with rampage/destruction.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You forgot to add "And when you want to get three shotted and killed."<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Rarely happens.  This is not a combination to use at the beginning of a battle.  A good Guard should have agro control by the time the raid encounter is at 50% or less.  If you don't spam your attacks between then and the start of the battle you shouldn't gain agro.  I love being able to do good dps, but do it smartly.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah, this way you'll do awesome damage, do no damage at all in a 5 minute fight except shortly before the end to use juggernaut.

[Steelheart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Steelheart schrieb:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kfizzle wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Steelheart wrote:<BR> This is actually a pretty neat offensive ability (when not tanking) when used in conjuntion with rampage/destruction.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You forgot to add "And when you want to get three shotted and killed."<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Rarely happens.  This is not a combination to use at the beginning of a battle.  A good Guard should have agro control by the time the raid encounter is at 50% or less.  If you don't spam your attacks between then and the start of the battle you shouldn't gain agro.  I love being able to do good dps, but do it smartly.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah, this way you'll do awesome damage, do no damage at all in a 5 minute fight except shortly before the end to use juggernaut.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Your sarcasim is unwarrented.  I didn't say don't use specials....i said don't spam them.  There's a big difference unless your goal is to actually TRY to take agro from your MT on a raid (which usually leads to a raid wipe).  We also have many uses on raids in addition to our dmg abilities.  Our STR buff is awesome when we're put into a mellee dps grp.  If you're looking to MT for your grp or raid than use another ability, this ones not for you.  In addition (and i'll have to check to be sure) 1 of our end AA abilities removes negative effects from us that our regular abilities put on us.  Not sure if that includes this 1 or not, but will research and find out.   </P> <P>So many people just wanna complain when a certain ability doesn't fit their particular playstyle.  This doesn't mean it's broken.  Find a solution on your own to make it work for you.............don't sit there a whine about it.</P>

[Bremer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Steelheart schrieb:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Your sarcasim is unwarrented.  I didn't say don't use specials....i said don't spam them.  There's a big difference unless your goal is to actually TRY to take agro from your MT on a raid (which usually leads to a raid wipe).  We also have many uses on raids in addition to our dmg abilities.  Our STR buff is awesome when we're put into a mellee dps grp.  If you're looking to MT for your grp or raid than use another ability, this ones not for you.  In addition (and i'll have to check to be sure) 1 of our end AA abilities removes negative effects from us that our regular abilities put on us.  Not sure if that includes this 1 or not, but will research and find out.   </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So many people just wanna complain when a certain ability doesn't fit their particular playstyle.  This doesn't mean it's broken.  Find a solution on your own to make it work for you.............don't sit there a whine about it.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nobody cares for our damage on raids and certainly nobody will say "We need more damage on our raid, let's look for a beserker, they have juggernaut.".</P> <P>The problem with this certain ability is that it is only useful in a dps-role on raids while all other fighter classes get a spell helping them when tanking. I can't understand why SOE gave only beserkers a new spell with such limited use.<BR></P>

[Rousso]

<P>Just a rumor...but I head from a semi-reliable source, who heard it from his uncle's brother's hairdresser's best friend, that SOE is considering improving this skill by adding a 2% chance for the bezerker to cast exploding corpse on an enemy encounter if killed while using jokernaut. The corpse explosion effect hits the entire encounter - up to 4 mobs - with 3x times the beserkers remaining hitpoints. This just might make it all worthwhile =P - of course with all that extra DPS a nerf is inevitable.</P> <P> </P>

[Ep]

This is not a "playstyle" problem where ppl "choose" to be sorta dps, especially when they want to "seem" useful on raids by adding dps. It's a problem on the way classes are supposed to do what they do. Fighters tank, thats thier archtype. It's the same as asking a swash to Aggro a mob, hold aggro and tank it, then and only then can this swash use thier unique lvl 65 ancient spell that does 8k dmg or whatever.giving a tank a CA that only works when your not tanking is a flaw, nothing else.<div></div>

[Montaigu]

<DIV> <P>Hey bro,</P> <P>Judging the effectiveness of this CA (juggernaught) by whether or not it pulled agro off of a tank that is 4 levels higher than you is a poor method of testing it.  Everyone knows how screwed up agro can be.  Aside from that, high agro on this CA is not a good thing, less of course your tanking with it, and if you are you wont be for long.  No will ever convince me, that loosing 2080 Mitigation does not matter, even if its only for 24 seconds.  All it takes, is 1-3 good hits well your mitigation is reduced to put you down for good.  Even non raiders have to recognize this, just go tank some mobs in HOF.  Even if your not tanking, I have seen other group members go down 1-2-3 due to AE Attacks.</P> <P>I think that you will find, that the increased damage from critical hits is minimal at best and that the increased damage of Combat Arts is not really that significant either.  Now I havnet tested the AD3 or M1, as I just dont see this CA being useful for tanking OR increased damage, because even when I am playing a support role in a raid I still have to worry about reists and this CA reduces not only mitigation by 2080 but also all resists. </P> <P>Even without the Negative effects, this combat art would still be lame.  Do the Devs really think that this CA is that powerful?  Scout classes get CAs that increase there haste/dps up 90%.  For this CA to be useful at all, the crit chance needs to be increased significantly and critical hits need to start being meaningful.  Half the time I see a critical hit, it is for less or equal to, what I normally hit for.  How useful is that?  Wow I am going to hit for a critical hit 27% of the time for the next 24 seconds, for the same amount of damage I normally hit for!</P> <P>Lastly, what I find very perculiar, is that they dont list how much of an increase we are getting to Combat Arts.  Why is it being kept a secret?  </P> <P>Would be nice to see something like this on it.</P> <P>Adept 1 version     All Combat Arts have there base damage increased <STRONG>by 25%</STRONG></P> <P>Adept 3 version     All Combat Arts have there base damage increased <STRONG>by 30%</STRONG></P> <P>Master 1 version    All Combat Arts have there base damage increased <STRONG>by 35%</STRONG></P> <P>At this time, with the AD1 version.  I am only noticing a less than 10% increase in Combat Art Damage.  I will edit this post after I have some time to test this out again and get more exact numbers.  Right now, I am not even sure if the increase in base damage to Combat Arts even scales with the version of the CA.  Maybe i will buy the M1 and check it out. Depends on if its on the broker and whether or not its going for some insane price like 30p.</P></DIV>

[Kyriel]

<DIV>You pplx need hush. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>its a perfectly fine skill. Learn how to play =)</DIV>

[Bremer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zemfira schrieb:<BR> <DIV>You pplx need hush. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>its a perfectly fine skill. Learn how to play =)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You seem to be a very wise man and obviously know how to tank group/raid content with juggernaut. Please share your insights with us.

[lungdart]

Its easy just dont use it at the begining of a fight. The true skill is timing it so you KILL the mob with it. Its an awesome combat art <div></div>

[Kyriel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zemfira schrieb:<BR> <DIV>You pplx need hush. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>its a perfectly fine skill. Learn how to play =)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><STRONG>You seem to be a very wise</STRONG> man and obviously know how to tank group/raid content with juggernaut. Please share your insights with us.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Oh why thank ya! And I'd be a women, thnx~</P> <P>Here's a hint....</P> <P> </P> <P>Pwess da taunt......no pwess da juggernaut.....</P> <P>OR.....</P> <P>Pwess da juggernaut....no pwess da taunts......<BR></P> <P> </P> <P>Like i've said before........ ist not meant for tanking. It's to give us soem DPS. So we are a tank class. This skill is a bonus, so that if we are not tanking, we can have a little boost in DPS. Don't use it when ur tanking, of course, you'll get butt-[Removed for Content]. Fighting epic mobs? Not tanking? IF you stand in on the mob... Don't use it when a massive AE is about to go off...</P> <P>If I remember in early EQ1.... warriors would only go beserk when low on health right? Wouldnt that be concidered a penalty? Having to stay low health if you wanted to beserk? /shrug... Yeah yeah this aint eq1 and its not that great of a comparison, but I am just saying... there is nothing wrong with a little bit of penalty.... After all we are a TANK class, we were not born DPS.... so why should we have no or very little penalty to having dps? I think this skill is fine the way it is. Maybe they could up the crit % a little as it upgrades, maybe... </P>

[Bremer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zemfira schrieb:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zemfira schrieb:<BR> <DIV>You pplx need hush. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>its a perfectly fine skill. <FONT color=#ffff00>Learn how to play</FONT> =)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><STRONG>You seem to be a very wise</STRONG> man and obviously know how to tank group/raid content with juggernaut. Please share your insights with us.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Like i've said before........ <FONT color=#ffff00>ist not meant for tanking.</FONT> It's to give us soem DPS. So we are a tank class. This skill is a bonus, so that if we are not tanking, we can have a little boost in DPS. Don't use it when ur tanking, of course, you'll get butt-[Removed for Content]. Fighting epic mobs? Not tanking? IF you stand in on the mob... Don't use it when a massive AE is about to go off...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ok, so every beserker who playes a tank doesn't know how to play?<BR>

[Kyriel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zemfira schrieb:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zemfira schrieb:<BR> <DIV>You pplx need hush. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>its a perfectly fine skill. <FONT color=#ffff00>Learn how to play</FONT> =)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><STRONG>You seem to be a very wise</STRONG> man and obviously know how to tank group/raid content with juggernaut. Please share your insights with us.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Like i've said before........ <FONT color=#ffff00>ist not meant for tanking.</FONT> It's to give us soem DPS. So we are a tank class. This skill is a bonus, so that if we are not tanking, we can have a little boost in DPS. Don't use it when ur tanking, of course, you'll get butt-[Removed for Content]. Fighting epic mobs? Not tanking? IF you stand in on the mob... Don't use it when a massive AE is about to go off...</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ok, so every beserker who playes a tank doesn't know how to play?<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Obviously not if you're using a skill that decreases your mit while your tanking and come to the forums to complain :smileyindifferent:<BR>

[Rousso]

<P>Exactly Zem! </P> <P>Since I am nearly always either the main tank or soloing - there is simply no way I can use jokernaut. A zerker in a group and not the MT is a [Removed for Content] waste IMHO - unless you got two zerkers in the group (which should be illegal). I view myslef as the nuclear core - the wicked center of the ideal high DPS group or raid. At level 70, Wiz line top skill and Sta line pegged give me about a 100% DPS boost while maintaining tank-ability. Oh yeah I can rock - I just wish that Jokernaut could play a part in my vision of death and pain. WIth the massive penalty it never will.</P> <P>I am not complaining because i tried to use jokernaut as a tank - I merely point out that zerkers ARE tanks and a skill you cant use while tanking is pretty much useless. If you are playing some type of non tanking dps zerker - well you might be happy with jokernaut. Don't try to tell me that tanking zerkers who are unhappy with this skill dont know how to play the class. If that is your point I assure you that you are flat wrong.</P> <P> </P>

[Montaigu]

<DIV>I love how these noobs come here with their insight always claiming people dont know how to play this game.  This game is not rocket science.  We could train a monkey to play it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that the people who are always claiming that others dont know how to play their class are the ones who obviously dont know how to play.  Further supported by the fact that they favor Juggernaught as a CA that is useful to increase DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a tank, but I always understand that I will not always be tanking, especially on raids, so I need to be able to do something else.  But this spell doesnt help us out significantly there either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the amount of increased damage from this CA is quite unimpressive.  Do you think that your achieving monk/bruiser level damage or something for that 24 seconds?  Cause I can tell you, your not.  not even close.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Montaigu on <span class=date_text>04-13-2006</span> <span class=time_text>08:58 AM</span>

[Steelheart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Montaigu wrote:<BR> <DIV>I love how these noobs come here with their insight always claiming people dont know how to play this game.  This game is not rocket science.  We could train a monkey to play it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that the people who are always claiming that others dont know how to play their class are the ones who obviously dont know how to play.  Further supported by the fact that they favor Juggernaught as a CA that is useful to increase DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a tank, but I always understand that I will not always be tanking, especially on raids, so I need to be able to do something else.  But this spell doesnt help us out significantly there either.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the amount of increased damage from this CA is quite unimpressive.  Do you think that your achieving monk/bruiser level damage or something for that 24 seconds?  Cause I can tell you, your not.  not even close.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Montaigu on <SPAN class=date_text>04-13-2006</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:58 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If i had wanted to achieve Monk/Brusier damage then i would have rolled a Monk/Bruiser.  Juggernaut gives <EM>Bezerkers</EM> an increase to <EM>Bezerker Damage</EM>.  Why do many players complain that they don't do Monk/Bruiser damage or tank as well as a guard.  Did we not pick the <STRONG><EM>BEZERKER</EM></STRONG> class to play?  When i decided to play a Bezerker (at launch) i had no delusions i would tank like a guard or dps as well as a monk.  If you don't like this class......play another.  It's about time we realized that bezerkers have their own special niche in this game.

[KFizzle]

<P>I don't think he was serious about the Monk/Brusier thing, just more like "Do you think Juggernaught will give you that?" because it stinks and isn't useable while tanking. We have NO other CA's that are not useable while tanking or soloing. EVERY other CA CAN Be used while tanking or soloing and can help in one way or another. The only other CA that hurts our defense is our offensive stance, which can still be used while tanking (depending on the level of the mob in relation to you,your gear and your group mates).</P> <P>I do think this CAN be used ... not saying its impossible...but i'm saying the risk for return is way too low. Can you honestly all who defend this CA say that you wouldn't prefer it to NOT have the detrimental decrease to defense? Can you HONESTLY say that a 25% increase to crit chance or whatever is so 'uber' as to be as extremely situational as this is?</P> <P>I'm sick of seeing these threads about this CA. I understand why they are here ... but if SOE hasn't looked by now, they never will. I have an adept 1 of it i was given by a guildie, i scribed it but only used it a handful of times, it doesnt seem to return good enough results to me. </P> <P>If i'm NOT the tank in the group, that means im in a DPS role, and even if i'm in a DPS Role i need to have some 'plate tank-ness'....if an Add comes in i pull it first just so it doesn't go to a Mage/Scout/Priest because I have 'quick' reflexes and recognition ability. Not a knock on the other people i work with as tanks, but i come from FPS type games where you need high Framerate and quick 'twitch reflexes' so its like natural to me. If your sole intent is to be DPS and NOT tank ANYTHING ... then why did you pick a zerker? I'm not saying it has to be a skill i can use all the time, but to not be useable while functioning in the role intended for me by the game ... is silly. <BR><BR>Someone else said it right when they said, thats like having a Swashbuckler ability that they can only use while THEY are tanking. </P>

[Kyriel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Montaigu wrote:<BR> <DIV>I love how these noobs come here with their insight always claiming people dont know how to play this game.  This game is not rocket science.  We could train a monkey to play it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think that the people who are always claiming that others dont know how to play their class are the ones who obviously dont know how to play.  Further supported by the fact that they favor Juggernaught as a CA that is useful to increase DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yes... im a noob... you caught me...:smileysad:

[Ep]

i think i asked in another thread that was locked, anyway do ppl who actually like jugg, spec in str line? where your crit chance is exponentionally increased? if so that would be the reason why so many "seem" to see the reason for jugg and why others do not. i don't know the numbers for the str line, i never went or even looked at that route, but i was under the impression it was at least over 50% crit chance, add to that the 24% chance to crit with jugg and the crit chances seem insane(some1 mentioned sk's have 100% chance, so it'd be just like that i'd gather).again problems trying to use this CA effectively-need to berserk.(i don't know how many view it, but in a standard group setting facing a lvl 71^^^ or a heroic 4 group encounter, it usually lasts less than 30seconds and i'm being very generous with the time, sometimes  berserk doesn't proc the instant a fight happens, so i can't "choose" when i want to use jugg, 60% of the time, which would be at the very beginning of the battle)-need to be NOT tanking(in a group setting, this is just outrageous, 99% of the time i never NOT tank, sure there are times when there's a guildie guard grouped with me, course it's best to let the guard tank, not b/c they tank better, but b/c guard DPS is so low, they get way more DPS tanking, with DS and reactives than if they were to just try to do dps, which zerkers will do better in both situations, other than that, no i tank all the time, In raids, yes it's "optimal" to have a Guard MT, sometimes you don't get a guard MT, so you'll be the MT, yea i know it's shocking there won't be a Guard at a raid to most, but it happens, and often times you'll be OT anyway or around for mem blur assistance, rescue whatever, not good to try a rescue, and forget you have a big hat with 2 horns up which means you'll be dead once the mob turns on you cuz you rescue'd.)-flaw in archtype(i've said it b4, our arch type is to tank, even brawlers have a stupid stance that lets them do dps and gain aggro, whether they want to or not, pallys and guards siphon aggro, in general we tank, the 6 of us the brawlers,crusaders,warriors, we stand and get hit, no one really cares if we can do dps or not, no one really cares if some class can make others berserker or give the group max haste or max HP, they just want the mob to NOT hit them. i do not believe there is any other CA in the fighter arch-type that would hinder anyone's ability to tank so greatly, and i mean it's like casting debilitate on yourself, w/o a good ol priest to cure you. Which makes this art, only useable while NOT doing an arch-type job, which is tanking, goes back to my swash analogy, if they had to hold aggro and tank a mob, then they can use thier lvl 65 unique ancient spell, it would be fundamentally wrong||| or have some stupid cleric lvl 65 ancient self buff, if cleric does 5k damage in an encounter, heals group for 2k, it just doesn't follow the arch-type job)again if you like jugg, do you have aa skills that increase crit chance as well? <div></div>

[Kyriel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Epyx wrote:<BR>again if you like jugg, do you have aa skills that increase crit chance as well? <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>no

[Shurinow]

<DIV>I still don't know why people hate this skill so much.  I like it.  I use it pretty much everytime it's up when I'm playing a dps role in a group.  Only times I pull aggro using it is if I am spamming my attacks at the same time... which is to say when I'm acting like an idiot.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like to see all those extra crits go up when it's on.  And when I do pull aggro, I'm definitely not one shotted.  I go down faster, but it takes about 7 hits to kill me.  Plenty of time for the tank to get aggro back. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look, this skill is not a <EM>huge</EM> damage combat art.  I look at it as on the same level as any of the other dmg attacks we already got.  If you are pulling aggro and dying using this skill, imo only one of three things can be happening:  You don't know how to pace your dmg output (slow the [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] down)... you have waaaay too big a weapon (do you really need to use Vukar'ohk, Sword of Legend here?)... or the guy tanking is asleep.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are not using this skill when playing the dps role, you are only holding yourself back.  That's your choice.</DIV>

[aias]

Because of the hit to mitigation and defense.  What is the logic for it?  Scenario: MT is down, Berserker pick up the adds!  Umm, No! I still have 15 seconds on Juggs so please wait for my horns to disappear.  :smileysad:

[Ep]

For me it's different, i'm not "band-aid" dps, i don't expect to be in a group and think i r dps, or i don't expect to go on a raid and think, i'm not MT or OT, i'm here to berserk the scouts. Just like how scouts can be a "band-aid" tank and tank mobs with a shield, but just spammed with heals, sure they can tank, heck even dirges get hate aggro buff, i don't see ppl wanting scouts to tank tho, just like how i don't see ppl wanting zerkers for dps, sure it'll happen, but we're there to tank, and you can't tank with this skill.<div></div>

[Tasi3989]

<DIV>2 comments</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>raiding the twin dragons, and I was on the fire one, in a dps role.  Its aoe was not hurting me much, so when they were both at 6% or so, I went crazy on my dps, and decided to Juggernaut, did not notice the HP ticking down, and right before he went down, bam! aoe hit, and i was low on hp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raid tonight, most of the time i was around 10 or so on the dps list on my parser, conj, nec, and scouts beating me out.  But on some fights, I got as high as #5.  Zerkers are a great dps class when fighting multiple mobs, due to our AOE.  You can't tell me that if you have done </DIV> <DIV>Poets Palace: Return raid zone, you dont start drooling when the MT pulls them groups of 10+ mobs.</DIV>

[Kyriel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tasi3989 wrote:<BR> <DIV>2 comments</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>raiding the twin dragons, and I was on the fire one, in a dps role.  Its aoe was not hurting me much, so when they were both at 6% or so, I went crazy on my dps, and decided to Juggernaut, did not notice the HP ticking down, and right before he went down, bam! aoe hit, and i was low on hp.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raid tonight, most of the time i was around 10 or so on the dps list on my parser, conj, nec, and scouts beating me out.  But on some fights, I got as high as #5.  Zerkers are a great dps class when fighting multiple mobs, due to our AOE.  You can't tell me that if you have done </DIV> <DIV>Poets Palace: Return raid zone, you dont start drooling when the MT pulls them groups of 10+ mobs.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thats why I said don't use it when AE's go off and you have to stand in. In fact, if you're talkin about pedastal of sky....-- if you're doing that zone correctly...it shouldnt even be going off in the first place :smileysurprised:</P> <P>And yes, I  can get up to 1200, 1300 DPS as well as our other zerker when we use jaugguarnaut<BR></P>

[Indianaje]

I don't care about the stats but i would like to see the lil horned helmat dissapear as i am a froglok berserker it looks so stupid hanging over my shoulders.....why not make it increase our size the same way the lvl 65 Mystic(Boulster) spell does with an added flames effect?

[Narnian_Li]

<DIV>I think the basic problem that most people have with juggernaut is that it interferes with our primary role in the group. The damage on it could be tripled and we still wouldn't use it. To those who say this skill is just a "bonus" skill to use when not tanking, you forget that this still costs a slot in our skill list. Had we been given two skills (one for tanking and one for dps'ing) then people wouldn't be complaining about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've used juggernaut a few times and hardly noticed an increase in damage at all...though I was well aware of my reduced defenses. So I decided to spend some time and figure out exactly how much it improved my damage.My juggernaut is at adept 1, which increases combat art damage by 20% and crit chance by 20%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets look at combat art damage first. The base damage is increased to 120%, and has an additional 20% chance to crit. A critical hit adds a flat 30% to the damage a combat art or melee hit does, so...(120% * .2 * .3) + 120% = 127.2% Thus we gain a 27.2% increase to combat art damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The critical hit portion of the skill naturally affects melee (autoattack) damage as well. (100% *.2 *.3) + 100% yields 106%. That is a 6% increase to autoattack damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You (certain people in the berserker community) can claim the skill has a use...but it is a stretch to say that the skill is actually good. At adept 1 this skill gives us the following:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>6% increased autoattack damage</LI> <LI>27.2% increased combat art damage</LI> <LI>-39 parry</LI> <LI>-39 defense</LI> <LI>-1300 physical mitigation</LI> <LI>-1300 resistance vs all types of magical damage</LI> <LI>64 health to cast and 64 every 2 seconds</LI> <LI>(and can only be used while berserk)</LI></UL> <P>The data speaks for itself...</P><p>Message Edited by Narnian_Lion on <span class=date_text>04-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>10:31 AM</span>

[Bremer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Narnian_Lion schrieb:<BR> <DIV>... A critical hit adds a flat 30% to the damage a combat art or melee hit does...<BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It's not flat, it's only between one point and 30 %.

[Narnian_Li]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Bremer wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Narnian_Lion schrieb:<BR> <DIV>... A critical hit adds a flat 30% to the damage a combat art or melee hit does...<BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It's not flat, it's only between one point and 30 %.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I am aware of what Moorguard has said about crits. That crits always land in a range of maximum damage + 1 to maxiumum damage * 30%, however, from in game testing from myself and many others, this is simply not the way it works.</P> <P>Every single time disfigure crits (our slashing dot), the dot portion lands for 30% more damage than what it shown in the tool tip. It never varies. If the dot portion is listed as 100 damage, then it will always crit for 130 unless I raise my strength, when it will then crit for 30% more than whatever the new base damage is. I have 8 ranks in weapon expertise, I see this all the time.</P> <P>You can also see this with the awakened stormwind battlemace. It procs a heal for 445 points and when the heal crits, it always heals for 578.</P> <P>Here's the thread about critical hits.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=97304&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=97304&view=by_date_ascending&page=1</A></P> <P>(edited to fix spelling mistakes)</P><p>Message Edited by Narnian_Lion on <span class=date_text>04-15-2006</span> <span class=time_text>05:03 PM</span>

[Bremer]

The last time I saw disfigure crit (a while ago, I don't look so often at my damage) the damage was exactly the same like without a crit. Maybe they fixed this and now it will only crit for exactly 30 % more damage. But this is only the case with disfigure.

[Indianaje]

<DIV> <DIV> <P><SPAN>Juggernaut (Berzerker)<BR></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>     - Duration: 24 seconds, Recast: 3 minutes. Decreases Defense and Parry by 39.<BR>      Decreases Mitigatoin of caster vs crushing, slashing, piercing, and magical<BR>      damage by 1300. All GROUP/CASTER combat arts have their base damage increased. Increases<BR>      melee crit chance by 24%. This ability can only be used while berzerk!<BR></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>would this work?</P></SPAN></DIV></DIV>

[Bremer]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Indianajedi schrieb:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> <P><SPAN>Juggernaut (Berzerker)<BR></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>     - Duration: 24 seconds, Recast: 3 minutes. Decreases Defense and Parry by 39.<BR>      Decreases Mitigatoin of caster vs crushing, slashing, piercing, and magical<BR>      damage by 1300. All GROUP/CASTER combat arts have their base damage increased. Increases<BR>      melee crit chance by 24%. This ability can only be used while berzerk!<BR></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>would this work?</P></SPAN></DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Still wouldn't be usefull solo or tanking.

[Rousso]

<DIV>"This game is not rocket science.  We could train a monkey to play it."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[Removed for Content] every time I read that. - I am proof!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[infernus006]

<i>"there is nothing wrong with a little bit of penalty"</i> That's right but the penalties that come with Juggernaut are ridicoulous.  Compare it to the level 65 abilites that other classes get and you should see the huge disparity in its usefullness. <div></div>

[KFizzle]

<DIV>I've been trying to use Jugernaught while off tanking with a SK friend of mine ... i have said it before, its totally useless. I throw it up and either </DIV> <DIV>A) I don't get many crits and dont use alot of my spells and thankfully live...or </DIV> <DIV>B) I use all my spells (not stacking Open Wounds and Rampage, that would just be silly if i could use those together with Juggernaught) and then pull agro and die.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's quite comical on Vent, i'll be like 'Alright, gunna give it a shot'  then he'll be like "Ok ill try to keep it off ya" then moments later one of the mobs will turn, hit me three-four times and im dead even if i pop up Wall of Ferocity (Master 1) because i cant get it off before im already in the yellow (IE One hit).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I need to take this stupid thing off my bar, i've been trying ... trying desperately to learn when it can be used...and i think i know when ... when tradeskilling. I bet it would make me a jugernaught while tradeskilling. To bad i dont Tradeskill.</DIV>

[PlasticL]

<DIV>I just ugraded the adept 1 to the master 1 and in fact there is NO increase in CA dmg.... the only difference between adept and the master is.... +7% crit chance.</DIV>

[KFizzle]

 ... Weee fun. Thanks again SOE <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Being a Zerker i really like getting angry, and things like this POS continue to keep me in my own personal berserk state when I think about it.

[Akin]

<DIV>I agree that this skill could be better but its not worthless.   I can parse even with a mage on a single target using this and if its a group of 2 or more then i blow them away.  Plus its not hard to OT and still use this buff just pay attention and click it off, OMG THATS RIGHT YOU CAN CANCEL THE BUFF WITH 1 CLICK OF THE HOTKEY!!!!!! In a off tank or agro situation just cancel the buff you wont take more then 1 hit if that and your back to you full mit/def.  If your too slow to cancel the buff then i guess all i have to say is L2P.</DIV>

[Goldsna]

Sorry just skimming through this thread, but can anyone confirm that AA crit increase stacks with Juggernaut crit increase?  Thanks.

[Bu££a2k]

<P>It's pretty obvious that Jokernaught isn't a great CA (tanking or DPS'ing) due to the large defensive hits and so perhaps the Zerker community could come up with some alternatives which we feel would actually add something positive to our class! This is my suggestion (replacing the current form of the ability with the following):</P> <P>All CA's (not taunts) are AoE for x (10 maybe?) seconds (3 Min recast):</P> <P>This would be of use to a tanking Zerker as he could button mash for those 10 seconds and would hold aggro for the rest of the fight :smileyvery-happy: or could be used by a DPS'ing zerker provided he was careful and didn't mash...Slay/Frenzied Blows as an AoE /drool. This would also allow us to get through 3 fights with a different special on each group (Juggernaught/Open Wounds/Rampage) as I sometimes find that after I have gone through 2 groups of mobs I don't have either Open Wounds/Rampage up due to the recast timers. Mixing this new form of the ability with Rampage...would be a visual feast of numbers! :smileywink:</P> <P>Maybe if other Zerkers could add their own suggestion(s) we could compile a list of them and vote for the best...the devs can then tweak the numbers so the ability is not too overpowering.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>