Juggernaut Serious Discussion: Should it be improved? Should it be useable while Tanking and DPSing?

[Silelwen]

<div></div>Right now everybody knows that juggernaut is not useable while tanking any serious content. It's also not believe to do enough damage compared to other classes Tier7 Marquee ability. How do other's feel?I personally like the spell, but I'm more of a DPS berserker when it comes to raids (meaning I don't get the chance to often to be the main-tank). But I do feel that at adept3, a 26% melee crit chance for 24 seconds every 3 minutes is rather low. I would prefer either it's duration be extended or it's reuse lowered, or finally, the crit chance upped to something more along the lines of 39% in adept3, 45% master1.P.S. This thread needs to stay away from the tank vs dps argument that some berserkers feel strongly about. I understand this is very hard to do, but I do admit that in it's current form this skill is useless to any tanking berserkers that aren't taking on trivial content.<div></div>

[Ep]

<div></div><p>Having made adept3 Of juggernaut i used it extensively over the weekend. I HAD to find a group in which i do not main tank(which during the last year in a group i was doing 99.9%). I could only use juggernaut "sometimes", as i was in the position to only do dps and off tank, berserk, proc'd sometimes during the middle of the fight towards the end, well whichever, it didn't proc when i wanted it to proc(which is a requirement of jugg)[not to mention group fights rarely last 20seconds or more on yellow ^^^]</p><p>Anyway when i did have berserk up i could only cast EITHER open wounds or Rampage not both, b/c if i did manage to have a lucky crit, i'd pull aggro from a lvl 70 amends pally. Oh btw if i pulled aggro i died immensely fast, yes yes the "you dropped faster than a caster joke" was passed around until everyone thought it was old... basically if they saw that i had the BIG viking helmet up, and i got aggro, it'd be best to just res me 5seconds later.</p><p>So is this spell remotely useful in Group? no.</p><p>The ultra rare time, i as a tank, do not tank, is rare enough for me. Not to mention I NEED berserk to be up on a 10% chance to proc berserk, Not to mention that the crit chance is so minimal i barely critted all weekend. Along with the fact that it's on a 3minute reuse... trying to juggle this + open wounds + rampage was getting annoying quite quick.</p><p>My GF is a coercer, yes a robe wearing caster, we've played since release she's 65, She's one of the classes that would notice a beat down from a mob, from a broken or failed mez. She said i dropped faster than anything she's ever seen (if i have viking hat up, which means i'm using juggernaut).</p><p>This spell needs a revamp,</p><p>-You cannot use this spell during a key class ability, which is to tank.</p><p>-You cannot produce the secondary requirement of this spell when you want to cast it(berserk). -You cannot even see any remote difference with this spell on or not, DPS wise.</p><p>-The recast timer is too long for such a drabby spell.</p><p>I would like to see either of any of the following changes</p><p>a. Take away the detriment to all mitigation completely,take away the detriment to defense/parry completely</p><p>b. increase chance to crit 100%, increase CA base damage to 100%</p><p>In conclusion.</p><p>if i am ever not tanking in exp group(very unlikely) and if i am ever not raid main tanking (33% chance to raid tank depending on encounter and tanks online, and dps classes around to buff berserker many factors) I use this spell...</p><p>NOT for dps</p><p>NOT for crits</p><p>...</p><p>I use it b/c everyone in my group gets a big kick out of see a big viking helmet over my head.(and if i'm on a horse, the viking graphic seems to come out of my chest now instead)</p>

[FightGame]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><p>Should it be improved?  Yes.  I really don't care how it is improved, but it definelty needs it.  When I use it, I don't see any more crits than if I did not use it!  And when I do crit, it isn't any more damage than what I'd normally do without critting, but maybe that's a different discussion.  I'd be happier if the crit chance was higher, the damage done from crits was raised, or most importantly to me - less penalties.  Why are we the only ones with a trade off on our level 65 ability, and why would the trade off be much less defense, when we are a tanking class, and why are we the only ones that can use our level 65 ability when we are "berserk"?  What's our chance to be berserk? ~20%?  We have a group berserk and a self berserk at 10% each, So a rough estimate says that ~20% of the time, we will be able to use the ability, and for a trade off.  Every other class can use theirs 100% of the time (as long as it's up of course), and with NO TRADE OFF.  As far as I know, everyone has a place in their AP tree to up their crit chance, and by a higher % than what this spell offers.  Every other class gets something cool, that others can not get.  In other words, if someone from any class puts AP into crits, then they get something much better than the berserkers level 65 special ability.  They get a higher % chance to crit, and it is being used 100% of the time (rather than our ~20%), and with NO PENALTIES.  Might as well give them the bulls horns over their head too.  Better yet, make the bulls horns bigger, since their ability is better.</p><p>Does it kill me every time I use it?  No.  Because I use it defensive stance, atleast 2 healers in group, and all three 30 second defensive buffs up (which pretty much defeats the purpose).</p><p>So in summary, our ability compared to every other classes ability:</p><p><strong><u>Ours</u>                                                                                                           <u>Everyone Else</u></strong></p><p>can be used about 20% of time (need berserk) (if up)                                   can be used 100% of time (if up)</p><p>and if we can afford to lose all the defense, so I'd guess <10%                  still 100% of the time, not situational        </p><p>wehave to worry about this getting us killed                                                     no way will theirs ever get them killed</p><p>supposedly a higher CHANCE to crit                                                            No "chances".</p><p>3 minute timer                                                                                             Not sure.</p><p>3 defensive penalties, and to a tank class (always needs def.)                      No penalty, let alone 3 of them.</p><p>Message Edited by FightGame on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:14 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by FightGame on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">05:22 PM</span></p>

[Aonach]

<div></div>Basically anyone who has used this spell at all will realise its totally pointless. On the rare occasions that you actually as a tank ever get the chance to use it, it does next to nothing. Totally, totally pointless waste of a hotbar spot. Anyone who says it isn't is really grasping at straws and I challenge them to post parses of any meaningful fights that shows Juggernaut doing anything at all. Cos the parses I have show it's pointless. Did I mention that this CA is pointless?

[infernus006]

I don't even have to use this spell to know it's pointless.  That's why at level 70 I still haven't even scribed it and I really have no desire to even bother trying it out.  I can tell just by looking at it that it totally sucks and it's the worse thing that SOE has ever done to this class.By the way, isn't it only a 5% chance to proc berserk when you're not taking any damage?  I will have to check again, but I'm pretty sure it's only 5%, not 10%, regardless of the quality of the buff you have, because upgrading it only increases the chance to go berserk from taking damage, or so I thought.<div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<div><p>I like the ability also because it gives us some varability within our class being able to lean one way or another, but i will agree that a 26% chance to crit for the sacrafice we take is low.</p><p>Personally, i would rather it be a 26% chance to proc a direct damage effect for 24 seconds reusable every 3 mins which consumes HP like it does now over the 24 second period with out the negative side effects.</p></div>

[Lechac]

I understand the original idea behind this spell. Something that falls in line with the "traditional" idea people have of zerks (ie. not the plate wearing tank of soe), and something to please the part of the zerk population that doesn't main tank.Nobody can come up with numbers about that, but I seriously doubt that non tanking zerks are anywhere close the majority, or even a significant part of the zerk player base. I'm a bit surprised to see Sony throw them a bone, it didn't seem to be their poilitic regarding small populations with problems (coercers, carpenters ...).In a 6 people group with 2 heals, when I click on Juggernaut, my mitigation goes back into the 3k range, and my avoidance shows 0%.No need to say I can't be tanking anything else than a green solo mob at that moment. Or I'm dead, and maybe my group with me. This CA can't be used while tanking. Period. Thing is, I don't remember the last time I was in a group as a dps, and not the tank. And I'm not talking about raids, where I'm one of the 2 MT of my guild, and I won't have my cursor come even close to the spell icon.On the other hand, the damage bonus I get from it is, well, non existant at times (in terms of crits). That's right, sometimes I won't crit once during the 24 seconds. The 20% bonus on combat arts damage is ok, but doesn't come close to making this spell useful.Is this some kind of payback for having 3 very good ancient spells in T6 ? I don't know, but what I know is that I'd very much like SoE to look again at this combat art and make it something I would use, because in it's present form I will never use it.<div></div>

[infernus006]

<div></div><i>"Is this some kind of payback for having 3 very good ancient spells in T6 ?"</i>I was thinking the same thing.  We got really hooked up with our DoF Ancients so they must have decided to give us a really useless one in KoS to keep us "balanced".  The spell basically cancels itself out so it's like we don't even get one.  Can't use it while tanking and can't use it while DPS'ing either, for fear of AOEs and getting aggro and getting one-shotted.  Can't use it for anything that really matters.  If you bother to scribe it you can use it to help clear green/gray trash mobs a tiny bit faster but that's about it.<div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">12:41 PM</span></p>

[Aonach]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<div><p>I like the ability also because it gives us some varability within our class being able to lean one way or another, but i will agree that a 26% chance to crit for the sacrafice we take is low.</p><p>Personally, i would rather it be a 26% chance to proc a direct damage effect for 24 seconds reusable every 3 mins which consumes HP like it does now over the 24 second period with out the negative side effects.</p></div><hr></blockquote>Whether you like it or not isn't what is being asked here. We undestand that you will like it whether it's useful or not. Post some numbers to back up the reason for the CA in the first place. It gives us no variablity because it doesn't actually do anything worth while. If you want variablity tank 3 up white con mobs naked for 24 seconds, it amounts to about the same thing.

[Mjollnyr]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Silelwen wrote:<div></div>Right now everybody knows that juggernaut is not useable while tanking any serious content. It's also not believe to do enough damage compared to other classes Tier7 Marquee ability. How do other's feel?<div></div><hr></blockquote>I'd have to say this skill needs a boost.  This skill is great example of 'no reward for great risk'.Berserkers by definition, and description are fighters. Meaning we're expected in most situations to tank.  Now, we also couple as reasonable dps when we're not expected to tank.  A tanks ability to complete devastate our own defensive abilities should equate to more then a 5-10% increase in dps.  Which i'd say this skill currently adds, and that 5-10% being relatively inconsistent.Juggernaut is one of very few skills that seem to want to "balance".  The majority of skills simply provide added bonuses, damage, abilities, etc.  This skill wants to "balance" our character by removing the majority of our tanking ability, but increases our dps.  Its already been said how little dps this skill currently adds, so its not nessecary to repeat it.It would be very nice, if this skill could be re-evaluated and re-balanced into a more usable form.  This spell currently is very restrictive to the situations you can use it.  Please re-vamp this skill into something that we can use while tanking, dpsing, and solo'ing.  Currently it can only be used when dpsing, and if it isn't used there is very little difference.</span><div></div>

[Mjollnyr]

Sil, would it be possible to shorten the title.  Replys are getting "Subject can not exceed 100 characters"For simplicity sake. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div>

[Mjollnyr]

<span><blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote:By the way, isn't it only a 5% chance to proc berserk when you're not taking any damage?  I will have to check again, but I'm pretty sure it's only 5%, not 10%, regardless of the quality of the buff you have, because upgrading it only increases the chance to go berserk from taking damage, or so I thought.<div></div><hr></blockquote>The group buff is 5% while the self buff is 10%.They changed the group buff to be half the chance of the self buff a few LU's ago.<img src="http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c147/Amendfighters/Berserkers/Infuriate-ad3.jpg"><img src="http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c147/Amendfighters/Berserkers/WarCall-ad3.jpg"></span><div></div>

[infernus006]

Oh I see, thanks for the info.<div></div>

[SugarGirl]

<div></div><p>I've been off the boards for a couple of weeks, but I see the argument against Juggernaut is still going strong. I have run some parses while using Juggernaut, but I am out of town on business for the next month and won't have a chance to post them. However, I can say that i have used Juggernaut in a variety of situations now and it definitely needs some tweaking. It's obvious that Juggernaut was meant to help rais our DPS in a raid situation, and it does accomplish this. However, to generate any kind of significant boost from Juggernaut, Open wounds needs to be on. Of course, using Open Wounds and Juggernaut together WILL turn most mobs ... and we don't have anyway to lower our aggro, using Juggernaut with open wounds usually measn an instant death. Against single mobs, raid or otherwise, I see no significant increase in damage (i.e. 1-2% DPS). </p><p>Outside of raid situations, Juggernaut can be used against green mobs, but anything higher than green is going to kill... or come very close to killing you. I have lost encounters to 3 blooms in TT while using Open Wounds (M1), Rampage (M1), and Juggernaut (A1) with my Unbridled Fury (m1) and Chaos (M1) on. My gear is all legendary or better. I can understand that this art should not enable  us to solo ^^^ yellows, but currently, it gives us no edge in a fight. It basically makes an encounter that we could easily defeat without the skill mor challenging. That doesn't make any sense to me.</p><p>So far, I have been unimpressed with the damage increase of Juggernaut, and horrified at the penalties. This spell is completely unbalanced in its current state and should be re-evaluated by the devs.  </p>

[infernus006]

<div></div>The saddest thing about Juggernaut for me is that if I had the choice I would use it on a mob before I would use it on myself.  I would be willing to give them the extra crit chances just to debuff their mitigation and defense so much and drain their health too.  Which is really sad.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />On a brighter note I am happy that I looted the master1 of Destruction the other night from a trash mob in PoA.  =DIt's sad though that I would not be so thrilled to loot the master1 of Juggernaut.  If I saw it drop I would tell everyone in the group that it was FFA and if I still won it I would try to sell it and see if I could get some sucker to shell out some plat for it.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">03-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:08 AM</span></p>

[Silelwen]

With the LU21 changes to juggernaut, has anybody found this art to be better? Haven't heard any recent posts and have been on vacation myself.<div></div>

[infernus006]

I still haven't scribed it and I'm still not interested in doing so.<div></div>

[Aonach]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Silelwen wrote:With the LU21 changes to juggernaut, has anybody found this art to be better? Haven't heard any recent posts and have been on vacation myself.<div></div><hr></blockquote>Still seems to do sod all on the very odd occcasion I haven't been tanking just to try it out it's done next to nothing.

[Jake_The_Lettuce]

<div></div><div>Just get rid of the mitigation penalty and it will be fine, it seems to be pretty useless otherwise, having an ability you can't use if you are tanking :smileyindifferent:</div>

[Bremer]

<div></div><p>The spell still sucks after lu21. If it has -1300 mitigation and -39 def/parry or more like before makes no difference. Nothing has changed, the spell is suicide solo and dangerous and stupid to be used while tanking. The benefits still don't justify the penalties.</p><p>It's on a 3 minute timer and only lasts only 24 seconds. Like said before, the spell could have no penalties at all and still wouldn't be overpowered. They could change this spell completely, I don't care what they do as lang as the result is a spell which helps me when playing solo or tanking.</p><p>Yesterday our sk explained his new spell, it's extremely cool. It's a dot and if the target dies while the dot is on it the dot will spread to 2 new targets and if these targets die while the dot is still on them the dot will spread further and so on. It can continue forever. Oh, and it doesn't cripple the defense and costs no hp to cast.</p><p>Why do other fighter class get such cool spells and we get juggernaut?</p>

[Aonach]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Bremer wrote:<div></div><p>Why do other fighter class get such cool spells and we get juggernaut?</p><hr></blockquote><p>Cos we got bent over, grabbed out ankles and got shafted on out T7 ancient.</p><p>When I tell people in my guild what the CA actually does it gets treated with derision. It's almost embarresing having to make excuses for how bad this CA is.</p>

[Halc]

<div></div><p>I said pretty much all I had to say in other threads. Pretty much everything else I would say has already been posted here, so there is no real need for me to repeat it. I have personaly removed Juggernaut from my hotbar since everytime I have tried to use it effectivly I have died.</p><p>The only way to get any effective boost from using Juggernaut is by getting 100% haste (usually by using Open Wounds which also increases our DPS). However, as has been stated too many times already Juggernaut and Open Wounds (or anything that will boost your haste to 100% which isn't hard to do at all) means you WILL pull agro which means you WILL die. The defensive penalties on Juggernaut = instant death on agro.</p><p>My repair bills on raids is already high enough. I don't need to purposly add to the cost by using Juggernaut, hence the removal of it from my hotbar.</p><p>Just for fun though, try this combination one time. Get a Dirge in your group and get Juggernaut ready to be used (in other words get in a berserk state) pop Open Wounds + Juggernaut and tell the dirge to pop blades and watch the damage fly for the 5 seconds that you are alive. No need to worry about wiping the group or the raid since you will die so fast that the mob/s will agro right back onto the tank and the dirge can combat res you. Just make sure your armor is above 10% when you do this or you will get up naked, lol:smileyvery-happy:</p>

[infernus006]

Level 70 Zerker still haven't scribed this spell after LU21 and don't want to.  It's not worth the space in my knowledge book.<div></div>

[SugarGirl]

<div></div>It is still crap.

[Ep]

<div></div><p>i ran around killing lvl 60's for about 20mins using only jugg...</p><p>saw like a crit or 2 every other jugg casted.</p><p>100% jeez+100% combat dmg please.</p><p>stupid mobs nearly killed me all the time, with me chain stunning, stun shield, sceptre self heal...</p>

[SugarGirl]

<div>I've been trying out jugg in sevral scenarios now and it is completely unimpressive. The crits suck, the penalties suck, and it is just generally, all around a big hunk of crap. I have tried in everyway to post kindly, constructive, worthwhile posts filled with ideas, compromises, and general goodwill towards the devs on this one.... but I'm just going to be honest: Whoever thought of this crap has never played the game and has zero clue as to how to balance out penalties with benefits. I still say, if Juggernaut is fine and balanced, then reverse the effects.</div><div> </div><div>It's crap like this that keeps making me spend more time enjoying RL events and less time online.</div>

[infernus006]

I am still depressed over the suckiness of the Juggernaut spell and I really wish they would change it for the betterment of our class as a whole.<div></div>

[Silelwen]

I fully agree that the dmg doesn't seem that big a deal compared to it's stiff penalties which limit it's usability.<div></div>

[Erick_Stormfu]

<div></div><p>I upgraded this spell to master to see if that would make a big difference.</p><p>I can honestly say, the decrease in mit etc isn't quite so bad, its at least not insta-death that it was previously.  as long as i use havoc before using juggernaut its not horrible.</p><p>now saying that, the damage that the thing does, with my parses, i see very little additional damage.</p><p>i'd love to see a comparison of every other classes, class defining ancient teaching level 65 spell, compared to ours. </p><p> </p><p>-Erick</p>

[Emlar_from_Halas]

<div></div><div>Well, as most of you I didn't manage to find a usefull way to use Juggernaut.</div><div>So either all together we didn't understand the ratio behind this combat art or it doesn't address a real T7 zerk issue.</div><div>At the moment, dps doesn't seem to be an issue - we are not dpsing as a monk - but open wounds and rampage are providing already enough in this area (not to mention the Agility AA).</div><div> </div><div>Since this is supposed to be THE rare T7 combat art, shouldn't it address one real issue most of us face ?</div><div> </div><div>Personaly, and I do not force anyone to share my point of view, I struggle more to keep aggro than dpsing.</div><div>You could argue that doing more dps should help me to hold aggro more easily, but let's be honest, we can't compete against a wizard with a 3 x 11K dmg, or even against an Ice Comet.</div><div> </div><div>Therefore, I would be much more satisfied to get a rare combat art that would increase my rank in hate table, wich we can do only once every 10 mins at the moment. Something like:</div><div>"Exposed Fury : For 30 secs, every 2 seconds your fury makes you bleed for 350 dmg, but generates 350 hate points and you gain 1 rank in the hate table"</div><div> </div><div>That would bloodily satisfies my zerk style :smileyhappy:</div>

[SugarGirl]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><hr>emlar wrote:<div></div><div>Well, as most of you I didn't manage to find a usefull way to use Juggernaut.</div><div>So either all together we didn't understand the ratio behind this combat art or it doesn't address a real T7 zerk issue.</div><div>At the moment, dps doesn't seem to be an issue - we are not dpsing as a monk - but open wounds and rampage are providing already enough in this area (not to mention the Agility AA).</div><div> </div><div>Since this is supposed to be THE rare T7 combat art, shouldn't it address one real issue most of us face ?</div><div> </div><div>Personaly, and I do not force anyone to share my point of view, I struggle more to keep aggro than dpsing.</div><div>You could argue that doing more dps should help me to hold aggro more easily, but let's be honest, we can't compete against a wizard with a 3 x 11K dmg, or even against an Ice Comet.</div><div> </div><div>Therefore, I would be much more satisfied to get a rare combat art that would increase my rank in hate table, wich we can do only once every 10 mins at the moment. Something like:</div><div>"Exposed Fury : For 30 secs, every 2 seconds your fury makes you bleed for 350 dmg, but generates 350 hate points and you gain 1 rank in the hate table"</div><div> </div><div>That would bloodily satisfies my zerk style :smileyhappy:</div><hr></blockquote><div>LOL 'Oozing Zerk of Infuriated Pissedoffedness'</div><div> </div><div>At this point, I wouldnt' care if it was damage, hate, defense, buffage, or utility, but I would like to see this art change. BTW, you do realize that 350 every 2 seconds for 30 seconds is 5250 HP right?</div>

[Emlar_from_Halas]

<div></div><p>That's even 5600 with the initial 350 at the begining of the combat art :smileyvery-happy:</p><p>Ok, that's tough, may be too much and I admit it. But using such a skill would be worth it only in a group where you compete for aggro against DPS. And I expect at least one healer (not a shaggy paly) in such a group. My point was just to say that we are already doing quite some nice dps, but we are lacking aggro against T7 casters/scout spells. Specially since only the AE taunt got updated in T7.</p><p>Am I the only one to feel this way ?</p><p>In this case I apologise for such a proposition :smileymad:</p><p>* I have the weird feeling that a zerk isn't supposed to apologize, and I should trample any fool who dares to contradict me * :smileywink:</p>

[SugarGirl]

<div></div><div><hr></div><div><p>* I have the weird feeling that a zerk isn't supposed to apologize, and I should trample any fool who dares to contradict me * <img border="0" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width="16" height="16"></p><p></p><hr></div><p>You obviusly havent' been readig the zerker boards enough. Zerkers are suppose to freak out and start tearing down anything within arms reach! What is this 'apologizing' you speak of.. never heard of it.</p><p>Aggro wise, i think we are doing fine. I've never had any aggro issues. If you are playing with a high DPS group it helps to pull out the big 2h and fight in off or neutral stance, but other than that I keep aggro pretty easily... even against warlocks. The only other tank class that can keep aggro across a group as well as zerkers is a pally... and even then the pally needs an AoE class in their group to do it since they have to use amends.</p><p>Don't get me wrong... I'll ALWAYS take more taunts.</p><p> </p><p>Either way, I think you brought up a good point. It would be nice to see an ability that actually helped us in some way. Juggernaut was a big F/U slap in the face from SOE. The bonus that it gives is completely inadequate for the the penalties incurred. </p>

[FightGame]

<div></div><div>ya, the bonus this gives is crap.  We get a slightly higher CHANCE to crit.  Big deal.  Most times a crit isn't any more damage than normal.  Meanwhile, there's many classes that can spend a few AP's and get a much higher percent to crit, that's always on, with no penalty.  I know we have a place in our tree to do this too, but not nearly the % chance as many of these other classes get.</div><div>It's a big joke, really.  Only time I ever use it, is when I have 2+ healers in a group, and fighting trash mobs...not because of the small increase in crit chances, and not because the crits are anything special when they do happen, but because everyone likes the bull horns  (and after I explain to them what it does, it reminds them how good they got it with their level 65 special ability).</div>

[aias]

<div></div><div></div>We are offensive tanks(offensive in a good way :smileywink:  ) and we need this ability to assist us in that role.  The only time I use juggernaut is to run around QH with horns.  :smileyvery-happy:<p>Message Edited by Kosmetas on <span class="date_text">04-03-2006</span><span class="time_text">01:40 PM</span></p>

[SugarGirl]

<div></div>I was playing with Juggernaut last night in PoA. I was off-tanking and thought I'd start farting around since no one was in real danger. I'd cast Open wounds and Rampage on groups of 3 mobs. ..... out of the 24 seconds (at +100% haste and +70% DPS) I would see between 0 and 4 critical hits for around 600. My normal hits are about 470. This needs a boost.

[KFizzle]

<div></div><p>I group with my boy Delicious who's a SK (Ok his names not Delicious but i call him that ... we have a wierd [Removed for Content]-erotic thing going on in my guild ... but i swear i didn't start it ... ok i did, but still its wierd anyway) and he has a friggen AA Thing which allows him to get this ... get 100% crit on ALL his Spells. Not a "Crit Chance" like we have, 100% crit...so that means EVERY spell is a Crit. Hmmmn i'd rather have that 100% chance with NO penalty than this crappy 30% chance or whatever with the penalty.</p><p>I've never had this spell do anything to help me ... i have tried it a few times in 'testing situations' and if i use it with open wounds i tend to draw agro in OT Situations which tends to get me killed, and it still doesnt give me much better DPS. If i use it with Rampage same thing. If i use it without either of the two i dont draw agro too much but i also dont do anything really at all different DPS wise. This spell is without a doubt the least useable thing I have, even less frequently gone to than our crappy kick.</p><p>I don't care what we get as long as its useable. Give me a Defensive buff and im happy if it helps when im tanking (because i'd know when to use it). Give me an offensive buff or attack and im happy and i know when to use it ... This right now is nothing but a wasted space on one of my four hotbars.</p>

[Rousso]

<div></div><p>Jokernaut</p><p>This is the worst skill we - or any class to my knowledge - have been cursed with. Improve it? Nah - just kill it, drive a stake thru its heart, remove it from my spell book and be done with it. This is a worthless - but COMPLETELY WORTHLESS skill. It is worse than worthless. If you EVER use it in a group - you will doom yourself to a near instantaneous death and most likely wipe the whole party. If you ever use it solo - you will just die. I took it off my hotbar because i dont want to hit it by accident. If I could i would delete it from my spell book.</p><p>I have seen one zerker use this skill - I was grouped with another zerker and i was MT. I could tell when she hit it - the mobs I was not targeting shifted aggro to her and dropped her like a 10$ prom date. The healers burned tons of power trying to keep her alive but to no avail. Thus depleted - one of the group dead, healers low on power we faced certain doom only to be saved by our quick thinking scout who evaced us to safety. So the moral is - if you ever get tempted to use our abso-fuggen-lutely worse than worthless "jokernaut" skill, make sure you either tell the healers to just let you die and not bother wasting power on you, or make sure your scout has evac up.</p><p>My advice - remove from hotbar and forget.</p><p> </p>

[Kyriel]

<div>I dont understand why everyone is fussing. Dont use it when ur tanking... Dont use it when an AE goes off.... Simple is that.</div><div> </div><div>When i use it, i can get 1200 dps... Well.. with luck of a bunch of high crits.  I'd say that is pretty good for a tank (not including monks!)</div><div>It's every 3 minutes.</div><div> </div><div>And when are you NOT beserk? Do you not use your buffs?? I have mine always on (as you should...) and I turn on auto attack ffs and I go beserk auto maticly. I am ALWAYS beserk....  Using this skill every 3minutes is awsome.</div><div> </div>

[Raeyel]

<div></div><p><span></span></p><blockquote><hr>Erick_Stormfury wrote:<p>I upgraded this spell to master to see if that would make a big difference.</p><p>I can honestly say, the decrease in mit etc isn't quite so bad, its at least not insta-death that it was previously.  as long as i use havoc before using juggernaut its not horrible.</p><p>now saying that, the damage that the thing does, with my parses, i see very little additional damage.</p><p><font color="#ff0000">i'd love to see a comparison of every other classes, class defining ancient teaching level 65 spell, compared to ours. </font></p><p><font color="#ff0000"> </font></p><p>-Erick</p><hr></blockquote>Here are the new fighter CA's (Adept III quality):<p><span>Castigate (Paladin)</span></p><p><span>     - Recast: 3 minutes. Dispels 101 levels of hostile crushing, slashing, divine,      piercing, cold, disease, magic, heat, poison, and mental effects on caster.      For each one removed, all enemies surrounding the Paladin are struck by a      divine bolt.  (no info in description describing how much damage this is)</span></p><p><span>Dragonbreath (Monk)          - Duration: 8 seconds, Recast: 1 minute, 30 seconds. Inflicts 88-108 heat      damage on targets in area of effect instantly and every second. Reduces      casting timers of targets in area of effect by 42%.</span></p><p><span>Juggernaut (Berzerker)</span></p><p><span>     - Duration: 24 seconds, Recast: 3 minutes. Decreases Defense and Parry by 39.      Decreases Mitigatoin of caster vs crushing, slashing, piercing, and magical      damage by 1300. All combat arts have their base damage increased. Increases      melee crit chance of caster by 24%. This ability can only be used while berzerk!</span></p><p><span>Knockout Combination (Bruiser)</span></p><p><span>     - Duration: 20 seconds, Recast: 3 minutes. When target uses a combat art this      spell will cast Shove on target of combat art, which inflicts 168-505 melee      damage on target and stuns the target (if not epic) for 1.0 seconds.</span></p><p><span>Obliterate (Guardian)</span></p><p><span>     - Duration: 10 seconds, Recast: 1 minute. Inflicts 758-1264 melee damage on      target. Decreases defense, parry, and deflection of target by 55.</span></p><p><span>Pestilence (Shadowknight)</span></p><p><span>     - Recast: 1 minute. Applies Pestilence Damage. Lasts for 16 seconds. It inflicts      104-127 disease damage on target instantly and every 2 seconds. When that      target dies, if pestilence was still active, it spreads to 2 nearby enemies.      Pestilence continues as long as there are nearby enemies and they are killed      before its duration expires.</span></p><p><span>I'll allow the respective classes to debate the usefulness of their new CA's. The thing that stands out to me is that Juggernaut is obviously the only new fighter CA that has any sort of penalty involved. Interpret that how you will.</span></p><div></div>

[FightGame]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>As far as I know, we are the only class, fighter or not, to have penalties associated with our level 65 spell.</div><div>And the defensive penalties are huge, especially for a tank class.</div><div>I'd much rather have 20-24% LESS chance to crit, and have my defensive stuff all increased by those amounts...not that we really need a 4th temporary defensive buff, but it would be much better, and suit a tank class.</div><div>This is the equivilent to giving a mage an increase in defense, and lower their damage output...what the hell they going to do with that?  They'll still be one shotted many times.</div><div>Hell, for the very small increase in damage output this thing actually does, they should give us both the increase in dps, along with an INCREASE in defense.  They could even make the timer 5 minutes.</div><div>A few classes can spend some AA's and get 50-100%, yes 100% chance to crit on spells and auto attack.  Well this isn't a "chance" when at 100%..lol</div><div>Meanwhile they give us like 20% chance to crit (on melee only I think) through maxing out our AA step, along with 20% chance (at adept 1 juggernaut)...so we get up to 40% chance to crit (40 on melee and 20 on CA's) with huge defensive penalties.</div><div> </div><div>Review:</div><div> </div><div>Zerkers......can get up to 40% chance to crit melee, 20% chance to crit CA's, and huge defense penalty</div><div>Others.......some are crit 100% on melee and 100% spells, no penalties....many are less than 100, but still no penalties</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by FightGame on <span class="date_text">04-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:01 PM</span></p>

[Bremer]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Raeyel schrieb:<div></div><p><span></span></p><blockquote><p><span></span></p><span>Obliterate (Guardian)</span></blockquote><p><span>     - Duration: 10 seconds, Recast: 1 minute. Inflicts 758-1264 melee damage on      target. Decreases defense, parry, and deflection of target by 55.</span></p><div></div><hr></blockquote>Wasn't this a spell which would counter attack for 30 seconds or so for any parried attacks in beta (and the guardians complained about it because it sucked)? Obviously you just have to complain enough if your new class spells sucks and SOE will give you a new, better one. So we have to continue every day to tell SOE how much juggernaut sucks and that we want a new, usefull spell which can help us while tanking or playing solo and in the end we will get it.

[KFizzle]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>FightGame wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>As far as I know, we are the only class, fighter or not, to have penalties associated with our level 65 spell.</div><div>And the defensive penalties are huge, especially for a tank class.</div><div>I'd much rather have 20-24% LESS chance to crit, and have my defensive stuff all increased by those amounts...not that we really need a 4th temporary defensive buff, but it would be much better, and suit a tank class.</div><div>This is the equivilent to giving a mage an increase in defense, and lower their damage output...what the hell they going to do with that?  They'll still be one shotted many times.</div><div>Hell, for the very small increase in damage output this thing actually does, they should give us both the increase in dps, along with an INCREASE in defense.  They could even make the timer 5 minutes.</div><div>A few classes can spend some AA's and get 50-100%, yes 100% chance to crit on spells and auto attack.  Well this isn't a "chance" when at 100%..lol</div><div>Meanwhile they give us like 20% chance to crit (on melee only I think) through maxing out our AA step, along with 20% chance (at adept 1 juggernaut)...so we get up to 40% chance to crit (40 on melee and 20 on CA's) with huge defensive penalties.</div><div> </div><div>Review:</div><div> </div><div>Zerkers......can get up to 40% chance to crit melee, 20% chance to crit CA's, and huge defense penalty</div><div>Others.......some are crit 100% on melee and 100% spells, no penalties....many are less than 100, but still no penalties</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by FightGame on <span class="date_text">04-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:01 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I don't know about most of the classes, But i know the Dirge has a huge penalty on theirs. They heal and then get like rooted or stunned or something for some time. A friend of mine is a Dirge and he uses it as a last resort type of thing.

[Bremer]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>kfizzle schrieb:<div></div><blockquote><hr>FightGame wrote:<div></div><div></div><div></div><div>As far as I know, we are the only class, fighter or not, to have penalties associated with our level 65 spell.</div><div>And the defensive penalties are huge, especially for a tank class.</div><div>I'd much rather have 20-24% LESS chance to crit, and have my defensive stuff all increased by those amounts...not that we really need a 4th temporary defensive buff, but it would be much better, and suit a tank class.</div><div>This is the equivilent to giving a mage an increase in defense, and lower their damage output...what the hell they going to do with that?  They'll still be one shotted many times.</div><div>Hell, for the very small increase in damage output this thing actually does, they should give us both the increase in dps, along with an INCREASE in defense.  They could even make the timer 5 minutes.</div><div>A few classes can spend some AA's and get 50-100%, yes 100% chance to crit on spells and auto attack.  Well this isn't a "chance" when at 100%..lol</div><div>Meanwhile they give us like 20% chance to crit (on melee only I think) through maxing out our AA step, along with 20% chance (at adept 1 juggernaut)...so we get up to 40% chance to crit (40 on melee and 20 on CA's) with huge defensive penalties.</div><div> </div><div>Review:</div><div> </div><div>Zerkers......can get up to 40% chance to crit melee, 20% chance to crit CA's, and huge defense penalty</div><div>Others.......some are crit 100% on melee and 100% spells, no penalties....many are less than 100, but still no penalties</div><div> </div><p>Message Edited by FightGame on <span class="date_text">04-07-2006</span><span class="time_text">04:01 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I don't know about most of the classes, But i know the Dirge has a huge penalty on theirs. They heal and then get like rooted or stunned or something for some time. A friend of mine is a Dirge and he uses it as a last resort type of thing.<hr></blockquote>They heal with their own hp, another a little bit stupid spell. Why the hell give a scout a heal spell?

[KFizzle]

<div>Probably the same reason they can Rez <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>