Stamina Achievement line is better than people think...

[HalflingBo]

<div></div><div>I have seen an increasing number of posts about how the stamina achievement line requires a buckler and is therefore crappy in comparison to the other trees. I was looking at it earlier tonight and thinking about how viable it would be for tanking and did a few quick calculations. The main argument against the line itself is that by using a buckler rather than a kite shield (because a buckler is required for the tree) we will [Removed for Content] our mitigation. That is true if you dont have the line that increases your block percentage.</div><div>     The major difference between a kite shield and a buckler is that a kite shield has a higher protection value. Correct me if I'm wrong, but protection adds to your block percentage. From my quick tests earlier I determined that the value scales for about 100 protection per 5% block at lvl 25 (it may be different at different levels). I also looked at bucklers and kite shields of similar levels and they had about a 200 difference in protection values. Now, theres an achievement box that gives you 8% extra block at its max rank which would just about compensate for the lack of a kite shield. So while the stamina line doesnt increase mitigation by a huge amount, if you spend enough points in it it wont [Removed for Content] mitigation by a huge amount either.</div><p>Message Edited by HalflingBove on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:42 AM</span></p>

[Aonach]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>HalflingBove wrote:<div></div><div>The major difference between a kite shield and a buckler is that a kite shield has a higher protection value. Correct me if I'm wrong,</div><hr></blockquote>You're wrong. The major difference between a kite shield and a buckler or even better a tower shield is that a buckler is [Removed for Content] and worn by healers, mages and scouts. Big giant plate wearing berserkers shouldn't be forced to use a dinner plate as a shield. The guy from SoE that came up with this particular piece of wonder needs his/her/its head examined.

[Tudd]

<span><blockquote><hr>HalflingBove wrote:<div></div><div>I have seen an increasing number of posts about how the stamina achievement line requires a buckler and is therefore crappy in comparison to the other trees. I was looking at it earlier tonight and thinking about how viable it would be for tanking and did a few quick calculations. The main argument against the line itself is that by using a buckler rather than a kite shield (because a buckler is required for the tree) we will [Removed for Content] our mitigation. That is true if you dont have the line that increases your block percentage.</div><div>     The major difference between a kite shield and a buckler is that a kite shield has a higher protection value. Correct me if I'm wrong, but protection adds to your block percentage. From my quick tests earlier I determined that the value scales for about 100 protection per 5% block at lvl 25 (it may be different at different levels). I also looked at bucklers and kite shields of similar levels and they had about a 200 difference in protection values. Now, theres an achievement box that gives you 8% extra block at its max rank which would just about compensate for the lack of a kite shield. So while the stamina line doesnt increase mitigation by a huge amount, if you spend enough points in it it wont [Removed for Content] mitigation by a huge amount either.</div><p>Message Edited by HalflingBove on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:42 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Bucklers have statistics that are made for non-tanking classes. Tower shields generally have stats that are designed around the needs of a tank. Tower shields have the highest protection value. And tower shields tend to be the shields that have the +parry, +defense, and +mitigation on them.I'm sorry, but it's asking too much to give up a tower shield, and all other arguments aside it does not fall into the role playing aspect of the class. There's a reason why Tower and Kite shields are only useable by tanks.</span><div></div>

[Erick_Stormfu]

<div>and your whole arguement of spend all your AE points in this line, to make it almost be the same as if i use my tower shield... do you see whats wrong with this?</div><div> </div><div>instead of doing that, how about i spend my points on agility and wisdom.. gee now i have 12 seconds of not being able to be hit.  15 percent better defense, 320 points more of mitigation....</div><div> </div><div>see where this is going?  If your a tank, (which i hope anyone who's playing a zerker this long realizes there role) then why would you ever take this line? </div><div> </div><div>-Erick</div>

[infernus006]

<div></div>There are two big reasons why we don't like this line.  #1 there are no bucklers in the game right now (that I have seen) that have really good stats for tanking.  All the new legendary and fabled tower sheilds in T7 have nice combinations of str, sta, agi, mitigation, resists, defense, and parry as well as high protection factor.  All the bucklers I have seen thus far are more geared towards healers with int and wis and maybe some ministration and ordination and things like that.  So unless they make a buckler with all the same kind of stats as our tower sheilds then it's not worth it.  #2 we don't like the look of the wimpy-looking bucklers in this game.  Healers are stuck with them because that's the only kind of shield that they can use at all.  Why would we want to take an AA line that forces us in the same boat as them?  So unless they come out with cooler looking bucklers too then again, it's not worth it.  There's also the fact that we can take the agi line and get more avoidance and the wis line and get more mitigation, both of which are nice for tanking, and only one of the abilities in each of those lines requires a certain weapon to use, unlike the sta line where 2 of the abilities require a buckler to work.  Not worth it IMO.<div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:40 AM</span></p>

[Silelwen]

<div></div>Additional info, I think I understand why they made it buckler only... it was to balance the high end game inrespect to raid tank avoidance. A shield's protection adds to your overall avoidance. The higher the protection, the more avoidance you gain. Right now Kalidon (one of the top 3 tanks in game prolly) uses the STA line during raids, his avoidance gets to 86.4%, he originally used a common rosewood buckler but has now found a tank legendary buckler, so these are definitely being itemized in tier7. Another thing alot of folks may have not considered, is the second ability you get, Gladiator's Finesse gives you 76% double attack with a buckler equipped. This means taking a 1-hander of around dmg rating 80, and swinging 176% over normal. Dual wields are balanced mechanic wise to equal 2hander stats. Since a 2hander at the top end is about 110, you can see that the effective damage rating of a 1hander with the 76% boost equals out to a dmg rating of 140.8     now you could take the wis line and gain 24% dps to increase your overall modifier which might be better, but nobody seems to know which is better yet... The actual auto-attack of a 110 2hander becomes effectively 138.6 with a 26% dps mod but since CAs are such a bigger % of your overall dps, the 26% on that could definitely eclipse the 76% double attack. Anyways, just blabbering on the 2 lines for some added dps.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Silelwen on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:30 PM</span></p>

[Silelwen]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote:<div></div>There are two big reasons why we don't like this line.  #1 there are no bucklers in the game right now (that I have seen) that have really good stats for tanking.  All the new legendary and fabled tower sheilds in T7 have nice combinations of str, sta, agi, mitigation, resists, defense, and parry as well as high protection factor.  All the bucklers I have seen thus far are more geared towards healers with int and wis and maybe some ministration and ordination and things like that.  So unless they make a buckler with all the same kind of stats as our tower sheilds then it's not worth it.  #2 we don't like the look of the wimpy-looking bucklers in this game.  Healers are stuck with them because that's the only kind of shield that they can use at all.  Why would we want to take an AA line that forces us in the same boat as them?  So unless they come out with cooler looking bucklers too then again, it's not worth it.  There's also the fact that we can take the agi line and get more avoidance and the wis line and get more mitigation, both of which are nice for tanking, and only one of the abilities in each of those lines requires a certain weapon to use, unlike the sta line where 2 of the abilities require a buckler to work.  Not worth it IMO.<div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">10:40 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I'm actually not against the buckler looks. Roman Gladiators used bucklers as they were good defensive yet let them stay agile enough to defeat their opponents. Tower shields definitely look like their more protective, but more like something you sit on the ground in front of you and stay behind, instead of something where you actually move around and strike back at your foe.</span></div>

[FightGame]

<div></div><div></div><div>Pfffft. NO IT"S NOT!!!! </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Also, Infernous said there are 2 steps that require buckler, but in game says<strong> there are 3</strong>.</div><p>Message Edited by FightGame on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:54 PM</span></p>

[infernus006]

Silewen,<i>"</i><span><i>I'm actually not against the buckler looks."</i>Are you going with the STA line yourself then?  I thought you weren't even into tanking that much.</span><div></div>

[Silelwen]

Don't worry about me.<div></div>

[infernus006]

I just love how you like to make comments on things you don't even care about at all.  Of course you like the look of a buckler...not that you will ever actually be caught dead wearing one yourself.  Because you don't even tank hardly at all and therefore you have no interest at all in the STA line.  You just like the idea of other tanks (especially Berserkers) being forced to wear one is all.  You really are nothing but a troll.<div></div>

[Silelwen]

I already have a buckler... if you take the time to read my post again a few replies up you would see that I feel currently that a 76% double attack with a 1handed weapon is a serious DPS increase over our Wis line.Currently going off just our 2nd abilities:STR: Increase Melee Crit (Forget it's rank 8 cap)AGI: 24% Front AOE off AutoattackSTA: 76% Double Attack with 1h weaponWIS: 24% DPS IncreaseINT: 24% Haste IncreaseI'm going with STR, AGI, STA and see how that works, then swap STA with WIS and parse that and pick which is the best. I do feel that STA will be the best though, but I don't know, WIS has some good offerings.<div></div>

[FightGame]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div>Ok, stamina line can give a 76% chance to "double attack" when using a 1H and buckler?  Are you really going to equip a buckler and 1H so you can use this ability and do more damage?  Might as well equip a 2H or DW, and put points in haste or DPS for even more damage output.  IMO, you'd do more damage with a 2H and 24% garaunteed increase in DPS (in wisdom line), than with a 1H and a 76% CHANCE to double attack(whatever that is exactly).  Of course most of the time you won't be able to do this if you're tanking, but probably shouldn't equip a buckler if you're tanking either.  If you tank most of the time, you should max out +defense (in agility line) and +mitigation (in wisdom line).  If you are not tanking most of the time, you should max out DPS, Haste, Crits, etc., and preferably ones that don't require a certain weapon.  Actually if you rarely tank, and want to go all out offensive, best thing to do would probably complete INT line, to reduce cast timers, since we do more damage from CA's than auto attack (which is where the haste and DPS goes).  And max out crit chance, since you can crit on auto attack AND CA's.</div><div>Even if you tank 50% of the time, I would choose one or the other to specialize in, since you'll pick up a little of the other along the way.</div><div>For example, since I play the MT role most often (100% of time in a group, and 50/50 in raid), I'm maxing out +def and +mit, but in order to do this, I have to put 4 points into DPS, and 4 points into the frontal AOE thing.</div><p>Message Edited by FightGame on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">06:25 PM</span></p>

[Silelwen]

<div></div><div><span>Just realized I had an error in a previous post where I thought the effective damage rating on a 1hander was going to be higher than it really was... Math goes down like this1hander 80dmg rating with 76% double attack = 140.8 Dmg Rating2hander 110dmg rating with 24% DPS mod = 136.4 Dmg Ratingso with double attack your auto-attack will be higher thru the STA line, but I believe DPS mod goes on CAs too which means then if you aren't hitting DPS caps (100%) it prolly would be better to go that route.This is still alot of theorizing as I haven't hit 70 with 50AAs yet, but I'll definitely be trying to find out how to get out as much DPS with a berserker as I can.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Silelwen on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:33 PM</span></p>

[Henladar Bloodheart ~]

<div></div><p>IT IS!!!! BELIEVE IT!!!!</p><p>i was walking through QH one day where i see a 70 zerker in a raiding guild and i decide to inspect him... hes wearing a buckler.</p><p>Well i also found out he had gone the stainima line as did their MT who uses an aegis of scorn (id hope better for MT lol)</p><p>well this zerker just long term buffs in Defensive mode had 83% avoidence... thats INSANE</p><p>well 83% avoidence sounds worth it to me to wear a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] buckler sheild lol.</p>

[HalflingBo]

<div>Theres too many replies to reply individually to, but I'll try to answer them. My point is not that a buckler has an advantage over a kite or tower shield while using this line, but that is does not have a disadvantage in terms of statistics. There is no disadvantage to using a buckler if statistics are similar, and if you are on a pvp server there can be an advantage because your enemy may mistake your class. </div><div> </div><div>While <em>most</em> bucklers may not have stats that are good for tanking, there may be some that do. It is possible to have the exact same mitgation and stats with a buckler and a tower shield if the stats are similar.  If the mitigation can be similar then a tank can take advantage of the other abilities that require a buckler without any disadvantage other than cosmetic.</div><div> </div><div>And to the argument concerning the chance at a double attack with a buckler equipped, it is not a valid comparison to compare the dps of a 1h/buckler to that of a two handed weapon. A better comparison would be a 1h/buckler with the talent to a 1h/tower shield with the talent. If a person is properly speced then they will have similar mitigation and stats with those two and as crazy as it may sound a person with a buckler can tank. Additional dps while tanking is always good for keeping aggro. a 76% chance will happen every 3 swings out of 4 just about, so it is basically 2x the attack damage for 3/4th of your attacks which boils down to 75% dps give or take.</div><div> </div>

[Aonach]

<div></div>If they are going to force zerkers to wear bucklers on this line of AP, why not go the whole hog and make them wear leather and use tridents as well? Thats obviously the thinking behind this. If you are not MT or MA and you want to do DPS you have to look like a colloseum gladiator while doing it. Hopefully by the time I've maxed out my wis line they will have sorted this out. A main tank with a buckler...?  /shudder

[infernus006]

Excuse me, Silewen, but I have a hard time picturing a Zerker trying to DPS with a 1H and a blucker.  I really don't see anyone going with the STA line just for the DPS.  If you think it's worth it then go for it, but that seems rather silly to me.<div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Silelwen wrote:<div></div><div><span>Just realized I had an error in a previous post where I thought the effective damage rating on a 1hander was going to be higher than it really was... Math goes down like this1hander 80dmg rating with 76% double attack = 140.8 Dmg Rating2hander 110dmg rating with 24% DPS mod = 136.4 Dmg Ratingso with double attack your auto-attack will be higher thru the STA line, but I believe DPS mod goes on CAs too which means then if you aren't hitting DPS caps (100%) it prolly would be better to go that route.This is still alot of theorizing as I haven't hit 70 with 50AAs yet, but I'll definitely be trying to find out how to get out as much DPS with a berserker as I can.</span></div><p>Message Edited by Silelwen on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:33 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><p>Not to mention all the added DPS from Buckler Reversal.</p><p>While i can see this being a very viable option and makes alot of sense when you look deeper into and understand it, i dont think it will be a path or raod i take, i may try it and see how it does pan out when i eventually get a high dmg rating one hander, but not right now.</p><p>By the way, 8 ranks in crit chance in STR line is 22% chance to crit, passive ability, which works on Buckler Reversal also.</p>

[Schmalex23]

<div></div><p>Actually this is a kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] line for us, seriously.  If you max gladiators revenge and you have a decent buckler then you get anywhere from a 75-80% avoidance.  Having the avoidance of a brawler is just nuts.  Not to mention that in the next patch buckler reversal is being made into a toggle spell.  This line is seriously our best line.  We smack back when we block(which is alot at 80% avoidance) we double attack 75% of the time and we get about 20% increased avoidance.  True we have to use a buckler but we dont lose anything defensivly.  Shield factor only adds to avoidance, there are nice bucklers out there (see t7 rare ones with 23 to sta and other stats) and our dps increases.</p><p>I honestly think this line is buged tho, there is no way the devs intended for a plate class to have a constant 80% avoidance.  Before i found out about this i was going to go wis and agi.  I wanted to max the +mit skill in the wisdom line and get Dragoon reflexes in agi line(basicly tsunami skill).  But i have traded the agi line for sta.</p>

[FightGame]

<div></div>Halflingbove, you keep talking about the mitigation on the shields....I've only ever seen 1 shield that actually had mitigation on it, and thats a tower shield for the quest, from the grizzle fizzle guy.  It has +6? vs slashing, crushing, and/or piercing.  If I could find a really nice buckler with stats I need, and actual mitigation on it, to sort of make up for the protection loss (or shield factor, which basically is avoidance), then I may consider the stamina line.  Until then, I think for the plate class, that tanks most often, should go for mitigation over avoidance.

[infernus006]

<i>"I've only ever seen 1 shield that actually had mitigation on it, and thats a tower shield for the quest, from the grizzle fizzle guy."</i>There is also a legendary tower sheild that you can get from the 3rd quest in the claymore series called the Intangible Aegis of Bylze that also has a bit of mitigation on it and a lot of resists too and it has just over 1k of protection factor and 20 str and 5 sta.  I use it as a backup sheild to the Grizzfazzle one and sometimes I switch to it when tanking caster mobs for the extra resists since the extra avoidance on the other one doesn't really help that much against them but the resists do.<div></div>

[Dimgl]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Schmalex23 wrote:<div></div><p>Actually this is a kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] line for us, seriously.  If you max gladiators revenge and you have a decent buckler then you get anywhere from a 75-80% avoidance.  Having the avoidance of a brawler is just nuts.  Not to mention that in the next patch buckler reversal is being made into a toggle spell.  This line is seriously our best line.  We smack back when we block(which is alot at 80% avoidance) we double attack 75% of the time and we get about 20% increased avoidance.  True we have to use a buckler but we dont lose anything defensivly.  Shield factor only adds to avoidance, there are nice bucklers out there (see t7 rare ones with 23 to sta and other stats) and our dps increases.</p><p>I honestly think this line is buged tho, there is no way the devs intended for a plate class to have a constant 80% avoidance.  Before i found out about this i was going to go wis and agi.  I wanted to max the +mit skill in the wisdom line and get Dragoon reflexes in agi line(basicly tsunami skill).  But i have traded the agi line for sta.</p><hr></blockquote><p>You're right. This line is currently bugged. I've been reporting it for almost a week trying to get it fixed I even sent PMs to devs trying to get this fixed, but since multiple people have let the cat out of the bag in this thread...</p><p>If you use a buckler and take even one point of gladiator's revenge your block chance will go to 70%. Solo it is rare that you'll be hit even once a minute with mobs in front of you, and group play you'll make your healer cry with boredom.</p><p>I emphasize <strong>this is not a display bug, you will be near physically invincible to anything in your front quadrant with this ability.</strong></p><p>My evasion in game right now reads: Base: 22.0%, Block: 70.0%, Parry: 17.1%. If I go into offensive stance I notice no difference in my performance, even if my base evasion and parry drop.</p><p>I've soloed a +3 heroic triple up solo with this skill in it's current form, but I have been trying to avoid any "exploit" situation with it, and haven been doing things like cleaning up L&Ls instead of really playing while my character is bugged like this.</p><p>Please everyone /bug this, and let's get this fixed. This gross imbalance isn't fun for anyone, I can tell you I certainly don't get any joy from the idea of trivializing the game like this. I personally love the STA line, and want to use it as it was intended, with the effect that was planned for it. I love the idea of double-attack, circular parry, and the gladiator style, but with something like this in effect you can expect every warrior to be STA line before the end of the week. And then when this bug is fixed, those same people may flip out at having to pay to respec their achievement...</p><p>Please devs, get this fixed.</p>

[Tudd]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Schmalex23 wrote:<div></div><p>Actually this is a kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] line for us, seriously.  If you max gladiators revenge and you have a decent buckler then you get anywhere from a 75-80% avoidance.  Having the avoidance of a brawler is just nuts.  Not to mention that in the next patch buckler reversal is being made into a toggle spell.  This line is seriously our best line.  We smack back when we block(which is alot at 80% avoidance) we double attack 75% of the time and we get about 20% increased avoidance.  True we have to use a buckler but we dont lose anything defensivly.  Shield factor only adds to avoidance, there are nice bucklers out there (see t7 rare ones with 23 to sta and other stats) and our dps increases.</p><p>I honestly think this line is buged tho, there is no way the devs intended for a plate class to have a constant 80% avoidance.  Before i found out about this i was going to go wis and agi.  I wanted to max the +mit skill in the wisdom line and get Dragoon reflexes in agi line(basicly tsunami skill).  But i have traded the agi line for sta.</p><hr></blockquote>Just for kicks, I redid my AA's just to see what effect Gladiators Revenge had. I maxed out Gladiators and then equpped Drelakor's Scale Shield, Small Chitin Protector, and Aegis of Scorn. My shown avoidance didn't budge. I had someone inspect me, and it also showed the same value for them as what I was seeing. With the Drelakor and Protector, my avoidance was around 47%. As I added each rank, I would see my avoidance flicker to about 80%, then immediately return back to the same value.So right now, I'm not seeing any benefit from it at all. The skill maxed says 4.5% increase to Parry, Block, and Riposte, but I'm not seeing it.Not only that, but Buckler Reversal was grey'd out and unavailable. Almost like it's not recognizing any buckler I equip as being a buckler.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Tuddar on <span class="date_text">03-21-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:38 PM</span></p>

[HalflingBo]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>FightGame wrote:<div></div>Halflingbove, you keep talking about the mitigation on the shields....I've only ever seen 1 shield that actually had mitigation on it, and thats a tower shield for the quest, from the grizzle fizzle guy.  It has +6? vs slashing, crushing, and/or piercing.  If I could find a really nice buckler with stats I need, and actual mitigation on it, to sort of make up for the protection loss (or shield factor, which basically is avoidance), then I may consider the stamina line.  Until then, I think for the plate class, that tanks most often, should go for mitigation over avoidance.<hr></blockquote>Im talking about the mitigation you get from the aa line that gives you 8% additional block, which would compensate for the loss of protection since all protection affects is your block percentage. Blocking is mitigation, sorry if my wording confused mitigation and avoidance, but by mitigation from a buckler I mean damage mitigation from the avoidance it provides.

[Dimgl]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>HalflingBove wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>FightGame wrote:<div></div>Halflingbove, you keep talking about the mitigation on the shields....I've only ever seen 1 shield that actually had mitigation on it, and thats a tower shield for the quest, from the grizzle fizzle guy.  It has +6? vs slashing, crushing, and/or piercing.  If I could find a really nice buckler with stats I need, and actual mitigation on it, to sort of make up for the protection loss (or shield factor, which basically is avoidance), then I may consider the stamina line.  Until then, I think for the plate class, that tanks most often, should go for mitigation over avoidance.<hr></blockquote>Im talking about the mitigation you get from the aa line that gives you 8% additional block, which would compensate for the loss of protection since all protection affects is your block percentage. Blocking is mitigation, sorry if my wording confused mitigation and avoidance, but by mitigation from a buckler I mean damage mitigation from the avoidance it provides.<hr></blockquote><p>It gives +1.0 for the first point then 0.5 for each point after, maxing at 4.5%. It does not give 8% additional block. If it did it would cancel out the loss, however at 4.5% you are still sub-tower shield evasion in the end.</p><p>For the poster attempting to emulate my statement, unless buckler reversal becomes usable, you are not using a buckler. Try using the Shiny Brass Shield in Buckler form (202 protection, usable by priests.) It's what I'm using on my 51 Zerker on Venekor. You can buy it from the Shady Swashbuckler on Nek docks if you've completed the HQ in the past. Or try other buckler items.</p>

[infernus006]

<i>"Blocking is mitigation, sorry if my wording confused mitigation and avoidance, but by mitigation from a buckler I mean damage mitigation from the avoidance it provides."</i>I think you should realize that there is a huge difference between mitigation and avoidance, in order to avoid confusion.  Mitigation allows you to absorb a certain amount of damage from all incoming attacks, avoidance allows you to avoid them altogether.  Base, parry, and block are the different subcomponents that make up your total avoidance.  They have nothing to do with mitigation.  Just so you know.<div></div>

[dagoo7]

<div></div><p> </p><blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote:Excuse me, Silewen, but I have a hard time picturing a Zerker trying to DPS with a 1H and a blucker.  I really don't see anyone going with the STA line just for the DPS.  If you think it's worth it then go for it, but that seems rather silly to me.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>I have a swashie main and just started a zerker alt for some fun and see what it feels like to take some hits.  So just started perusing the board and am surprised at the dismissiveness some are giving to the double attack feature of this line.  When I first looked at AA tree, stamina stood out to me as the best initial dps line.  If you look on swashie board, you'll see that our wisdom line which gives a similar bonus to double attack is currently regarded by most as the best dps line.  And that requires us to wield 1h with secondary empty.  You guys get a buckler and can also get avoidance bonus.</p><p>76% double attack on a 1h weapon that does .75 as much as dw is a noticeable increase to autoattack dps.  Also, currently the double attack is being treated as a normal 1h attack for purposes of procs (ie. should get more procs).  Finally, it would not take that many points to get this and still get max dps increase in wisdom or the crit increase, might even be able to get both.   If I keep playing this toon thats the way I'm going.  </p><p>I realize I'm new to the class and could very well be missing something here.  But dps better than dual wield or 2h which can be improved exponentially by dps boosts in other line, plus being able to use some form of shield.  Sign me up.</p>

[Mjollnyr]

<div></div>After witnessing the stamina line in its current form, i've re-thought my final spec.Keep in mind, the stamina line WILL be nerfed. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, but for the sake of "best tank" options, the stamina line is very powerful.  Also when this line is balanced (read: nerfed) a free respec will likely be provided.My new spec will look something like this:Agi: 4/4/5/4/8Sta: 4/4/8/8/0This would provide the max double attack, coupled with Dragoon cyclone of 15%, thus being decent dps output.It also provides the high avoidance of the stamina line, and tsunami.I'm rather curious to know if Tsunami works with Buckler reversal.  I'm currently skeptical, since when Dragoon reflexs (aka. Tsunami) is active, you can no do anything, including attack or use items like the "shocker".  Something i've witnessed with my GF's inquistor leans me towards it not working.  Inquistors get their mana leech buff, when she has in on, and she uses zealotry (stun+haste group buff)  the mana leech will never proc.  Something to do with the stun portion (now a stifle, haven't tested since it was changed).   Can anyone verify if Dragoon cyclone and Buckler reversal will work in conjunction, i certainly hope my gut instinct is wrong.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Mjollnyr on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:56 AM</span></p>

[Tudd]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>dagoo7 wrote:<div></div><p> </p><blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote:Excuse me, Silewen, but I have a hard time picturing a Zerker trying to DPS with a 1H and a blucker.  I really don't see anyone going with the STA line just for the DPS.  If you think it's worth it then go for it, but that seems rather silly to me.<div></div><hr></blockquote><p> </p><p>I have a swashie main and just started a zerker alt for some fun and see what it feels like to take some hits.  So just started perusing the board and am surprised at the dismissiveness some are giving to the double attack feature of this line.  When I first looked at AA tree, stamina stood out to me as the best initial dps line.  If you look on swashie board, you'll see that our wisdom line which gives a similar bonus to double attack is currently regarded by most as the best dps line.  And that requires us to wield 1h with secondary empty.  You guys get a buckler and can also get avoidance bonus.</p><p>76% double attack on a 1h weapon that does .75 as much as dw is a noticeable increase to autoattack dps.  Also, currently the double attack is being treated as a normal 1h attack for purposes of procs (ie. should get more procs).  Finally, it would not take that many points to get this and still get max dps increase in wisdom or the crit increase, might even be able to get both.   If I keep playing this toon thats the way I'm going.  </p><p>I realize I'm new to the class and could very well be missing something here.  But dps better than dual wield or 2h which can be improved exponentially by dps boosts in other line, plus being able to use some form of shield.  Sign me up.</p><hr></blockquote>Although it may appear that way on the surface, it doesn't translate out that way in actuality. The reason behind it is because when your playing, your going to be using CA's in addition to auto-attack. 1h weapons tend to have a lower delay then 2h weapons, the consequence of such being that using CA's will interrupt more of your auto-attack with a 1h weapon then with a 2h weapon. So using a 1h weapon+CA's will result in a greater loss of auto-attack DPS then when using a 2h.From a strict standpoint of auto-attack DPS what you say would be true, but when you add CA's into the picture it makes a drastic change into how your auto-attack DPS is affected.However, that doesn't mean the STA line isn't a decent boost to DPS when tanking with a shield. It's obviously still more DPS then without, with the tradeoff being (once the AA is corrected to work as it should) you'll take a little more damage then if you were using a tower shield. But if your looking for DPS better then DW or 2h, in practice it's probably not going to work out that way.</span><div></div><p>Real proof of the pudding will be when I can get some parsers that can handle the new log outputs and then do some comparison in DPS output, since switching AA's is relatively cheap for the first couple times.<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Tuddar on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:41 AM</span></p>

[Silelwen]

<div></div>I still feel the powerful choice for somebody who wants to DPS on raids as a berserker are as follows:<b>STR: 5/4/8/0/0</b>   - Yields melee crit chance passive ability<b>AGI: 4/4/8/0/0</b>    - Yields frontal AOE off auto-attack on primary weapon (this is very important for STA line possibly)Pick <b>ONE</b> of the following:<b>WIS: 4/4/8/0/0</b>   - Yields DPS increase that should affect CAs and Auto-attack<b>STA: 4/4/8/0/0</b>   - Yields 76% double attack to a 1hander (and since now you are double attacking, you also can proc twice as much, and I believe this may even mean you can frontal AOE off the AGI line twice as often)My personal make up will be one of the 2 options above, definitely doing the STR/AGI and will pick between WIS or STA for final choice.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Silelwen on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">02:00 PM</span></p>

[dagoo7]

<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Tuddar wrote:</p><p><span>[earlier posts deleted for length reasons]</p><p></p><hr><p>Although it may appear that way on the surface, it doesn't translate out that way in actuality. The reason behind it is because when your playing, your going to be using CA's in addition to auto-attack. 1h weapons tend to have a lower delay then 2h weapons, the consequence of such being that using CA's will interrupt more of your auto-attack with a 1h weapon then with a 2h weapon. So using a 1h weapon+CA's will result in a greater loss of auto-attack DPS then when using a 2h.From a strict standpoint of auto-attack DPS what you say would be true, but when you add CA's into the picture it makes a drastic change into how your auto-attack DPS is affected.However, that doesn't mean the STA line isn't a decent boost to DPS when tanking with a shield. It's obviously still more DPS then without, with the tradeoff being (once the AA is corrected to work as it should) you'll take a little more damage then if you were using a tower shield. But if your looking for DPS better then DW or 2h, in practice it's probably not going to work out that way.</p></span><div></div><p>Real proof of the pudding will be when I can get some parsers that can handle the new log outputs and then do some comparison in DPS output, since switching AA's is relatively cheap for the first couple times.<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Tuddar on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:41 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Well my post was based on data that is being gathered and posted (using parses as well as anecdotal) on the 1h double attack skills on the swashie forums.  There is, at least it seems to me, some good data and trustworthy opinions that show a significant increase to autoattack dps vs. dual wield even at only 50+% double attack.  Much of this is also taking into account the use of combat arts, and changes in game mechanics (including, but not limited to, reduced casting times on most melee CAs) has made the impact of what you are talking about much less significant.<p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:02 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:03 AM</span></p>

[TanRaistlyn]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Silelwen wrote:<div></div>. Right now Kalidon (one of the top 3 tanks in game prolly) ....<div></div><p>Message Edited by Silelwen on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:30 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Hahahahhahaa.....breath...hahahaahha

[wulfgarthegreat]

<div></div>well i dont post much on here but giving the sta line a shot with 8 points into the buckler block this week and weekend will be able to see how things go and I am also the MT for raids in my guild for the most part.

[HalflingBo]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote:<i>"Blocking is mitigation, sorry if my wording confused mitigation and avoidance, but by mitigation from a buckler I mean damage mitigation from the avoidance it provides."</i>I think you should realize that there is a huge difference between mitigation and avoidance, in order to avoid confusion.  Mitigation allows you to absorb a certain amount of damage from all incoming attacks, avoidance allows you to avoid them altogether.  Base, parry, and block are the different subcomponents that make up your total avoidance.  They have nothing to do with mitigation.  Just so you know.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I know mitigation and avoidance are two different things. I was using mitigation in the sense of damage reduction not the term as it is used in game. Avoidance mitigates damage, it just mitigates it alot more sporadically than mitigation does.

[Tudd]

<span><blockquote><hr>dagoo7 wrote:<div></div><div></div><blockquote><p></p><hr><p>Tuddar wrote:</p><p><span>[earlier posts deleted for length reasons]</span></p><p></p><hr><p>Although it may appear that way on the surface, it doesn't translate out that way in actuality. The reason behind it is because when your playing, your going to be using CA's in addition to auto-attack. 1h weapons tend to have a lower delay then 2h weapons, the consequence of such being that using CA's will interrupt more of your auto-attack with a 1h weapon then with a 2h weapon. So using a 1h weapon+CA's will result in a greater loss of auto-attack DPS then when using a 2h.From a strict standpoint of auto-attack DPS what you say would be true, but when you add CA's into the picture it makes a drastic change into how your auto-attack DPS is affected.However, that doesn't mean the STA line isn't a decent boost to DPS when tanking with a shield. It's obviously still more DPS then without, with the tradeoff being (once the AA is corrected to work as it should) you'll take a little more damage then if you were using a tower shield. But if your looking for DPS better then DW or 2h, in practice it's probably not going to work out that way.</p><div></div><p>Real proof of the pudding will be when I can get some parsers that can handle the new log outputs and then do some comparison in DPS output, since switching AA's is relatively cheap for the first couple times.<span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by Tuddar on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:41 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Well my post was based on data that is being gathered and posted (using parses as well as anecdotal) on the 1h double attack skills on the swashie forums.  There is, at least it seems to me, some good data and trustworthy opinions that show a significant increase to autoattack dps vs. dual wield even at only 50+% double attack.  Much of this is also taking into account the use of combat arts, and changes in game mechanics (including, but not limited to, reduced casting times on most melee CAs) has made the impact of what you are talking about much less significant.<p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:02 AM</span></p><p>Message Edited by dagoo7 on <span class="date_text">03-22-2006</span><span class="time_text">11:03 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I'd have to see some parses with 2h, not with 1h and DW. For example, my 1hr has a 1.6 second delay. Even with moderate haste, thats getting auto-attack close to a 1 second swing. Combat arts are .5 seconds, and AE casts of course much longer. You start getting down into that range, and even a .5 second cast is going to cause missed swings.I don't doubt that 1hs auto-attack DPS with double attack will out DPS a DW combo, because DW weapons also have low weapons delay and therefore CA interruption will be the same with both. However, against 2h weapons I don't think that's going to be so. Parses on the swashie forums can only taken into account DW and 1h comparisons, because they can't use 2h.</span><div></div>

[Silelwen]

<span><blockquote><hr>TanRaistlyn wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Silelwen wrote:<div></div>. Right now Kalidon (one of the top 3 tanks in game prolly) ....<div></div><p>Message Edited by Silelwen on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:30 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Hahahahhahaa.....breath...hahahaahha<hr></blockquote></span>Well not like me and Kal are best buddies in the game, but wondered where you have to backup insulting him like that. He was the first lvl70 worldwide fighter (2nd to lvl70 worldwide I believe, but I think the first was a caster or healer or something...)<div></div>

[wulfgarthegreat]

<div></div><p>Think on the insult that its just the fact he said that hes one of the top 3 tanks world wide.  In a game like this you cant say any tank is the best theres no stats you can go by.  You can say hes one of the best geared tanks in the game or something like that.  But as for the one of the best tanks in the game there is no way to prove that.  How fast you lvl doesnt prove anything.  Not trying to start a fight but just saying people tend to take offence to people saying well so and so is the best.   the only way to say somebody in this game was the best would be to take out all grping all raiding and then look at everybudys gear.  Oh but some testing done last night with the sta line it is way overpowered i solod the drake on breeding for the hq last night.  Will post more on it during the week and this weekend</p><p> </p>

[Mjollnyr]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote:Excuse me, Silewen, but I have a hard time picturing a Zerker trying to DPS with a 1H and a blucker.  I really don't see anyone going with the STA line just for the DPS.  If you think it's worth it then go for it, but that seems rather silly to me.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I respec'd last night, and i was completely blown away by the dps increase 76% double attack provides.Combining Double attack with OW, and eventually (when i get more aa's) Dragoon cyclone, there will be ALOT of dps to be had.I wonder what the nerfed stamina line will be like? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Edit: using a 71.2 DR 1h weapon.  Double hitting in a group for upwards of 600, so totally 1.2k across two hits.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Mjollnyr on <span class="date_text">03-23-2006</span><span class="time_text">08:14 AM</span></p>

[Dimgl]

<div></div><div>Even having done the math on paper ahead of time I myself was blown away by how big of an improvement the double-attack boost was. What's really scary is if you have a potent longbow, and you land a good double attack. It's one of my bread and butter techniques in PVP now.</div><div> </div><div>As for nerfed STA line, let's not go there, I like this line too much to see it nerfed, and it does work out pretty evenly on paper in my FAQ, given it only wins in cases where tanking and DPS are of concern, not one or the other. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div>

[infernus006]

All I have to say is if people really are getting more DPS with a 1h weapon using this line than they would be able to with a 2h or DW set in the other lines then I think you can pretty much expect this line to get nerfed very hard very soon.  So enjoy it while it lasts but I wouldn't get too attached to it.<div></div>

[Mjollnyr]

<span><blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote:All I have to say is if people really are getting more DPS with a 1h weapon using this line than they would be able to with a 2h or DW set in the other lines then I think you can pretty much expect this line to get nerfed very hard very soon.  So enjoy it while it lasts but I wouldn't get too attached to it.<div></div><hr></blockquote>I'm not sure i'd say more dps. I'd say comparable dps.In groups with my warpike i would hit for upwards of 1.5k relatively consistently (current high is 2214)With a fabled 1h weapon, and eight points in double attack, i could probably about equal the dps of my fabled 2h.  At the moment, i'm probably slightly below, simply because i'm only using a legendary 1h weapon.  If you want to use 2h, you can probably put those 8 points to use else where, and end up stretching that dps range a bit more.  Double attack makes this line very viable for dps though.The avoidance is broken, and is what primarly needs fixing.</span><div></div>

[Silelwen]

So we go from people saying this line sucks to now it will be nerfed? Maybe I should of never commented on this lines DPS capability. I still have my doubts as to whether this line or the WIS line offers more DPS. Auto-attack is only about 30% of our damage, a 24% dps increase 100% of our attack is mathmatically superior. What's going to be funny is the more I think about it, I might reconsider my plan on DPSing with AGI/STR then WIS or STA... Might go with STA/WIS and do STR or AGI... lol<div></div>

[Mjollnyr]

+dps mod buffs only affect auto-attack.  Only strength (to the softcap: 510) will affect combat arts.Unless this was changed, or the AA line is a different type of dps mod.  Thats how i was aware it worked.<div></div>

[Silelwen]

[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] didn't know that... guess WIS's DPS mod is for the sux0rs then, hehe. If you check my math up this thread, 26% dps to a t7 fabled 2hander is still not as good as a fabled t7 1hander with double attack... So this makes it very powerful for DPS as I originally thought.<div></div>

[MadLordOfMilk]

<div><span><blockquote><hr>Silelwen wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>TanRaistlyn wrote:<div></div><blockquote><hr>Silelwen wrote:<div></div>. Right now Kalidon (one of the top 3 tanks in game prolly) ....<div></div><p>Message Edited by Silelwen on <span class="date_text">03-20-2006</span><span class="time_text">09:30 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Hahahahhahaa.....breath...hahahaahha<hr></blockquote></span>Well not like me and Kal are best buddies in the game, but wondered where you have to backup insulting him like that. He was the first lvl70 worldwide fighter (2nd to lvl70 worldwide I believe, but I think the first was a caster or healer or something...)<div></div><hr></blockquote>Wait, does Kalidon = Bashm? Cus unless I'm mistaken, Bashm was the second lv70 worldwide first fighter and the only one to beat him to 70 was in his guild.... <span>:smileyhappy:</span></span></div>

[Silelwen]

Na EL had the first lvl70 worldwide Healer and Fighter.<div></div>

[Hurdoc]

<div></div><div><span>Silelwen's AA choices are bang on what I had decided as well. In fact, I think he copied my spec. j/k</span></div><div><span>I may choose the Wisdom line rather than Stamina though, because the over-avoidance people are seeing will be corrected eventually. I wouldn't even call it a nerf.... its overpowered at the moment.</span></div>

[Pegesus]

I too was thinking of the same build.  I have done the complete agi line and the complete stamina line atm and i dont like either of em.  Tsunami is completely pointless other than a saving grace to allow a healer to catch up on a heal or 2 but you can only do it every 10 mins.  Other than that i was hoping that it would allow you to auto attack but it doesnt. So pointless.The problem im having not only is the fact that a buckler looks pretty lame on my back is i can't find one in game worth anything.  I mean there are hardly and drops and when one does that you hope is a buckler its a round shield and you can't use it. And Stilwen have you tested this build and does it make for a more dps output?  or is this just theory.  I'm getting to close to keep respecing.  After your 5th time is costs a base of 13pp <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Also if anyone has a good link to a buckler mind tossing it up here.<div></div>

[Silelwen]

Sorry bro pure speculation on my part, been on vacation so just now getting back to the grind and hope to be able to test out my build in about a month. Just did the math on things.<div></div>