T6 Off stance

[Splinte]

<DIV>Yeah ive noticed we dont have a T6 offence Stance... but ive never really asked WHY we dont have one. Do we have a skill that took its spot or something?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So anyone know why we are the only class to not have one? We should really try and fix this, how can they classify us as a DPS tank when we dont even have a t6 off stance. I suggest everyone petetion this/send *SOMEONE* a PM.</DIV>

[Hammerof]

Ummmmmmmm....bud we do Unbridled Fury learn your stuff before you complain about it please....=

[Hammerof]

<P>And b4 you go off on me im 52 not 42 havent changed sig in a while.</P> <P> </P>

[Dak-D]

Well, it takes a ruby (t5 rare) to upgrade unbridled fury so it is technically a T5 CA ...<div></div>

[Mjollnyr]

Our offensive stance is level 50, thus T5. The reason we do not receive an upgrade is because all spells higher than, and including, level 47 do not get upgraded. Following this trend this means our offensive stance will not be upgraded at level 64. This unfortunately will mean our defensive stance will not be upgraded, since it is level 58. <div></div>

[Zhonata]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mjollnyr wrote:<BR>Our offensive stance is level 50, thus T5.<BR><BR>The reason we do not receive an upgrade is because all spells higher than, and including, level 47 do not get upgraded.<BR><BR>Following this trend this means our offensive stance will not be upgraded at level 64.<BR><BR>This unfortunately will mean our defensive stance will not be upgraded, since it is level 58.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Our defensive stance is upgraded at lvl 58.</DIV>

[Styk]

lol if you read his post he said what lvl our T6 defense stance was already

[Hor]

<P>I've actually asked this question before (well... several times actually) and have yet to get a reasonable answer( not surprising since the last Dev post in the Zerker boards was in October).  At one time it was said that it was because we got our original offensive stance at 22 when the others got theirs later, so we got 3, they got 3, just at different times.  That was changed a couple LUs ago so that all fighter classes got an offensive stance at 22 and we didn't get an extra one.  So now, we've got all fighter subclasses getting an offensive stance at 22, but everyone but the Berserkers gets 4 versions.  Add in that the bruisers and monks get DEFENSIVE bonuses on their last OFFENSIVE stance and you've really got to scratch your head(this one really puzzles me since it negates the whole purpose of a defensive stance, and if anyone should have a defensive bonus to offense I'd think it would be guardians).  Toss in the fact that our AoEs have more target restrictions than any others, and you begin to wonder about the future of the "offensive" plate tank.</P> <P>Truthfully, I'm very happy with my berserker at the moment, but I do get a bit worried when the touted "equality" of the fighter classes starts getting totalled up.</P>

[Mjollnyr]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Zhonata wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> Mjollnyr wrote:Our offensive stance is level 50, thus T5.The reason we do not receive an upgrade is because all spells higher than, and including, level 47 do not get upgraded.Following this trend this means our offensive stance will not be upgraded at level 64.This unfortunately will mean our defensive stance will not be upgraded, since it is level 58. <hr> </blockquote>Our defensive stance is upgraded at lvl 58.</div><hr></blockquote>I was speaking</span> hypothetically, with reference to when T7 comes out. Following the previous trend, spells are upgraded every 14 levels.  This means our defensive stance will not be upgraded until level 72. I was just elaborating on the current system, and how you might it expect to work in the future. I like the "teach a <i>person</i> to fish" method, rather then "giving a <i>person</i> a fish".  This way the <i>person</i> can "teach others to fish" when i'm long past gone. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Edit: Oops, posted this with "teaching a man to fish" and not the proper "person". Women fish to. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Mjollnyr on <span class=date_text>12-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:10 AM</span>

[Splinte]

<P>"Ummmmmmmm....bud we do Unbridled Fury learn your stuff before you complain about it please....="</P> <P>lvl 50 skill. using a t5 rare, in this case a ruby, a pre combat change skill, thus T5. Thank you, good bye.</P> <P>Anyone know what lvl the other classes get thier off stance at? we should have got a different skill instead.</P>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Splinterr wrote:<BR> <P>"Ummmmmmmm....bud we do Unbridled Fury learn your stuff before you complain about it please....="</P> <P>lvl 50 skill. using a t5 rare, in this case a ruby, a pre combat change skill, thus T5. Thank you, good bye.</P> <P>Anyone know what lvl the other classes get thier off stance at? we should have got a different skill instead.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I dont think you fully understand how the tier system works. Basically every 14 levels your Spells / CA's get upgraded and no class above lvl 47 gets their Spells / CA's upgraded and seeing that Unbridled Fury lands at lvl 50, we wont be seeing this Stance upgraded until lvl 64.</P> <P>If i was you id count yourself lucky and thank SoE for not making all the level 50 spells / CA's not sue a T6 rare.</P>

[Splinte]

<DIV>Came in the lvl 50 Crafting books, and i already had in Master 1. But, i guess you can look at it in two ways, live with the T5 off stance for 9 months or so, and wait till next expansion where we are like the only class that gets a new off stance, and rule all!</DIV>

[Kaberu]

Just because a skill uses a T5 rare to upgrade does not mean the ability is "T5". The Tiers create a crafting balance for levels, not for skills. <b>Unbridled Fury</b> (Adept III) -<i> Gained at level 50</i> <ul> <li>Increases Slashing, Piercing, Crushing by 32 </li> <li>Decreases Defense by 15</li> <li>10% chance to proc with AOE damage (159 - 266)</li> </ul> <b>Courageous Will</b> (Adept III) - <i>Gained at level 58</i> <ul> <li>Increases Defense and Parry by 24</li> <li>Decreases Slashing, Piercing, Crushing by 17.4</li> <li>Increases Mitigation by 406</li> <li>Increase Cold resist by 1624 </li> </ul> If there was an upgrade to Unbridled Fury, it would be a few levels higher in potency than Courageous Will placing it in the 60+ range. I think the fact that Unbridled Fury being as potent as it is at level 50 stands as a testament that we are built to be offensive tanks. When the next expansion hits and the next wave of spell upgrades arrive, we will be the first tank to get an offensive stance that remains on par with the offensive stances of the other fighters even though they get them at much later levels. For comparison, here is the Guardian's final offensive stance: <b>Desperate Charge</b> (Adept III) - Gained at level 58 <ul> <li>Increases Slashing, Piercing, Crushing by 37</li> <li>Decreases Defense by 17.4</li> <li>Increases Strength by 126 </li> </ul> They do get an extra level of offense but take a bit bigger hit on defense. The Strength boost might edge out more extra damage against a single target but is no match against the zerker's when fighting multiples (using just autoattack). Essentially, if we had an offensive stance at 58, it would only be ever-so-slightly better than the level 50 version. What's funny is their defensive stance is identical to ours with the exception of a heat bonus instead of our cold bonus. <div></div>

[Mjollnyr]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Splinterr wrote:<p>Anyone know what lvl the other classes get thier off stance at? we should have got a different skill instead.</p><hr></blockquote>Guardians:  level 58  -  </span><span>Stance: Desperate Charge</span><span>Berserker:  level 50  -  </span><span>Stance: Unbridled Fury</span><span>Monk:  level 49  -  </span><span>Stance: Halcyon Blessing</span><u><span></span></u><span>Bruiser:  level 49  -  </span><span>Stance: Magmatic Fists</span><span>Paladin:  level 60  -  </span><span>Stance: Relentless Wrath</span><span>Shadowknight:  level 60  -  </span><span>Stance: Pox Sword</span><span>Half the fighter classes do not receive upgrades during T6 to their primary offensive stance.  This is because spells get upgraded every 14 levels.  (yes, its been said before but I repeat it because there seems to be some confusion)Since we keep comparing to guardians, lets look at our level 58. Upgrades include Frenzied Blows, Weapon Aegis, Stance: Courageous will, Open wounds.  Looks like we did get a different skill, four infact.If there was a spell to complain about not getting a T6 upgrade.  I'd spend my energy trying to get a T6 encounter wide taunt.  But i know the game mechanics will not change for something thats really a non-issue.</span><div></div>

[Hor]

<P>Not to argue but:</P> <P>  Bruiser lvl 58, Stance:   Provoking Stance-- combination offensive/defensive stance with no drawbacks</P> <P>  Monk lvl 58, Stance:  Black Widow Stance-- combination offensive/defensive stance with no drawbacks</P> <P> </P> <P>While you can say that since it doesn't state " This is (class name)'s primary offensive stance", it doesn't count, I think any fighter class would gladly take a stance that benefits both offense and defense.  Therefore, I stand by my earlier statement that berserkers have one less offensive stance than the other fighters, with no real reason given for the difference.  </P> <P> </P>

[Kaberu]

<span><blockquote><hr>Horrt wrote:<div></div> <p>Not to argue but:</p> <p>  Bruiser lvl 58, Stance:   Provoking Stance-- combination offensive/defensive stance with no drawbacks</p> <p>  Monk lvl 58, Stance:  Black Widow Stance-- combination offensive/defensive stance with no drawbacks</p> <p>While you can say that since it doesn't state " This is (class name)'s primary offensive stance", it doesn't count, I think any fighter class would gladly take a stance that benefits both offense and defense.  Therefore, I stand by my earlier statement that berserkers have one less offensive stance than the other fighters, with no real reason given for the difference.  </p> <hr></blockquote>The problem comparing monks and bruisers to berserkers is that the brawlers have fundamentally different tanking styles. They get a bonus to both with their final stance but it doesn't put them on par with the defensive abilities that mitigation tanks have. Another good point is that the bonuses are not as good as our specialized stances. The Bruiser's Provoking Stance at Adept III only grants a bonus of 12.2 for Deflection, Crushing and Ranged and a Mitigation boost of 203. It also adds a single target attack proc with only a 5% chance of proccing (279-466 if armed, 699-1164 if unarmed). Of course, there is also the obligatory resist boost just like every other fighter's but only at 812 The Monk's Black Widow Stance at Adept III grants a 17% haste, increases their Deflection, Crushing and Ranged by 12.2 and mitigation by 203, oh and the single resist boost of 812 against mental. </span> <b><u>Going for Defense</u></b>: Bruisers and Monks get from thir combined stance: <ul> <li>+12.2 to Deflection</li> <li>+203 to Mitigation</li> <li>+812 to one resist</li> </ul> Berserkers get from their defensive stance: <ul> <li>+24 to Defense</li> <li>+24 to Parry</li> <li>+406 to Mitigation</li> <li>+1624 to one resist </li> </ul> <u><b>Going for Offense</b></u>: Bruisers and Monks get from their combined stance: <ul> <li>+12.2 to Crushing</li> <li>+12.2 to Ranged</li> <li>5% Attack Proc for high, single-target damage (Bruisers) or a 17% Haste (Monks)</li> </ul> Berserkers get from their offensive stance: <ul> <li>+32 to Slashing</li> <li>+32 to Piercing</li> <li>+32 to Crushing</li> <li>10% Attack Proc for AOE damage</li> </ul> Now the Brawlers do get the benefits of both at the same time and don't incure penalties but also doesn't allow as much tailoring for specific roles. Also, switching stances is a breeze... Mana cost is what? Zero? What about cast time? Nearly instant was it? Personally, if I have to buckle down and tank something, I'd rather have my specialized stance with the greater defense bonuses... same goes for when I need to lay out some massive damage... I'd like to have the highest boost possible. If I really need balance, then I can avoid the stances all together which in that case, the brawlers have an edge. <div></div>