Raiding Zerkers

[Rashen]

<DIV>So for all you other Berserkers out there that are lvl 60 and do nothing but raid, what is your experience with raiding?  I mean as far as getting into the raid and how much we are actually needed.  When the guild I'm in has more than 24 people for a raid they of course start to pick the best classes for the raid that are needed.  My experience has been that this means that the berserker does not get added to the raid.   Last night for example we had about 4 people extra above the 24.  The ones left out were 2 zerkers, 1 guardian and 1 paladin.  There were no zerkers in the raid at all.  They had 2 guardians for MT and MA and 1 paladin as the rez [Removed for Content].</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We really don't bring much to the raid.  Our DPS is not that good when we are not the MT and I know for raids I will never be the MT.  We have too many guardians that fill that roll and lets face it they are still the better MT for a raid for their aggro control and defensive buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So then what else do we bring?  Our mitigation buff is useless since nobody in the group is tanking (we will not get added to the MT group as other classes have more and better buffs to add to the MT).  Our hp regen isn't enough to make a difference in a raid.  We add some DPS for making the group go zerk but that is pretty minor when looking at the big picture.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was trying to come up with something I can tell my guild why I am still needed when they already have enough tanks in the raid but really can't figure it out.  What is everyone else's experience with this?</DIV>

[Luca Blight]

<P>Well first I would like to say i'm sorry that you get kicked out of the Raids when 24+ people are online. I'm glad in my guild we mainly base it on who was on first.</P> <P>Far as the raid scene goes from my experience so far. I can agree with you on how Guardians can keep agro easier thant a Zerker, plus add in a Dirge and they are set. I wish we could have the good ole days of more taunts to steal agro when we liked withought using rescue.</P> <P>What I dont know would be a Utility i would want to bring to the raid. I would love to see us be able to tank as Dual wielders with a natural riposite. I think that alone would help keep a sure agro on a mob if you can Riposite often. But yes other than that we have no utility that makes us top priority when push comes to shove.</P>

[Buggrit]

doesn't sound like a very nice guild imho thats the problem though big raiding guilds only 24 people allowed people are going to get left out and aslong as everyone gets fabled loot there happy /shrug personally why i will never raid or try not to in Eq2 seen enough of it in eq1 but you have to look at this? was it your first raid you've been left out on have you gone on all the others? if so kinda of selfish of you to be expected to be invited or have you always been left out in which case its not the guild for you and you would be better off leaving personally i have no raiding experience as a Berserker well no proper raiding experience but thats my opinion <div></div>

[infernus006]

"I know for raids I will never be the MT.  We have too many guardians that fill that roll and lets face it they are still the better MT for a raid for their aggro control and defensive buffs." first of all i think your guild is silly for letting two gardians in the same group instead of putting a zerker in there instead.  i don't believe their buffs stack with each other since i know that zerker buffs don't so they are actually getting less buffs that way.  furthermore there is nothing wrong with a zerker being the MT for a raid, especially if you put a guard in the same group so the zerker gets all his group defense buffs on him.  as far as holding aggro...who has insolent gibe?  i'm not sure that guardians get a super pbaoe taunt proccing buff like that. <div></div>

[Rashen]

<P>Its a top raiding guild on the server so we raid every single night.  Anytime there is more than 24 (and not an excess of healers which is rare) then yes I'm left out.  I'm not the only one though because the extra guardians have it just as bad once the 2 other slots are filled.  I can't say its a bad guild because well they want to put the best raid force together that they have possible and besides there aren't any other guilds even close to being able to raid like we do.  </P> <P>Pre LU13 this was of course never a problem.  We added over 1k+ hp to the main tank and our dps was always on top.  Since then though we can't bring either of them.  </P> <P>If I were left just this one time heck I wouldn't have minded it because it gives me time to do other things but when your in a raiding guild and what you want to get out of the game is to raid...well consistently being removed from the raid just isn't much fun.</P> <DIV>The 2 guardians are not in the same group.  In 2 different groups so thats not an issue.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Rashen on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:12 AM</span>

[dremtak]

leaving a zerker out of a raid is just plain stupid................if we are not being use in the mt group then we difinately should be in the dps group of the raid. to have 2 guards and no zerker versus 1 guard and 1 zerker is simply "gumpish" in a dungeon crawl situation or an instance with more then one named encounter is "super gumpish" im not one to say people  are playing favorites on who they bring to the raid ............but it does happen.......can this be the case? <div></div>

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>"Pre LU13 this was of course never a problem.  We added over 1k+ hp to the main tank and our dps was always on top.  Since then though we can't bring either of them." i think people underrate our in combat hp regen buffs a bit.  they could probably be better but as it is now they are something and it might not do that much for the MT who is taking a lot of big hits but it does help the other people in your group recover from aoe damage faster and alleviate some of the pressure off the healers.  furthermore we also get a group berserk buff that's actually really nice for all the melee classes in your group, especially your guardians who can really use all the extra dps they can get.  and don't forget about our group STR buff either which was beefed up quite a bit after lu13.  the t6 ad3 of that gives +83 STR and stacks with all other classes' STR buffs.  that's nothing to scoff at. you may not want to admit this but it sounds to me like your guild is basically anti-zerker and i personally would not stay in a guild like that for one second.  think about it, even if they don't ever want you to be the MT for anything there is still no excuse for letting two guardians be in the same group when they could have a zerker in place of one instead.  seriously.  it's like they are stuck on a false notion that not only are guardians the only choice for MT in a raid but also the only tanks in the game or the only ones that should be allowed on a raid, which i'm telling you is plain [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  zerkers are exactly the same as guardians except we get a different set of ca's and buffs, ones that are meant to be more offensive.  and like i said, our group buffs do not stack with each other when there are two of us in the same group.  so why the heck would you want to have less buffs in a raid than you could have by letting a zerker replace one of the two guardians you keep putting in your MT group?  that really doesn't make any sense at all and whoever your leader is really should consider that they are making a big mistake by leaving you out.<p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:21 PM</span>

[Corvax6]

<P>I'm from one of the top raiding guilds on our server.  We also Raid every night.  If they think that we cannot MT...There really getting all wrong.  Sure Guards hold aggro alot better on single target encounters, but when it comes to multiple mobs encounters, we Zerkers have the Edge...with the defensive stance/insolent Gibe and all are great AoE. Rampage and Open wounds...., we hold the aggro alot better IMO. </P> <P>When we raid we switch MT depending on the encounter...Since LU13, certain classes will Tank better certain mobs....So they really got to get out of the old philosophie that the MT must be a guard....not true anymore.</P> <P>And if we are not MT, we sure can DPS...again are speciality is multiple mobs encounter.  On single mobs we are not that bad but add in a couple of mobs and you can be pretty close to the top of the list on the DPS parser...</P>

[uux]

I'm in a casual guild on the server I play on.  We usually take people on a first come first serve basis.  Some spots are held open because we lack something, like a healer (hey, it's a pick up raid, you never know what you're gonna get).  I'm usually either the MA or the MT.  If I'm not MT, it's usually another berserker.  I think we do just fine, but I probably lack the experience to judge it as well as many of you.  I'm sure other tank classes might be a better fit for some encounters, but we always seem to manage.  As MT, we have good mitigation, a skill to prevent a one shot death, and a good combination of skills to hold and maintain aggro.   As support in the MT group, we have our small mitigation buff, the intercept line,  interrupts to stop casting,  a snare, and guarded vehemence.  If for some reason the MT falls, it's very easy to get aggro and step up into their place.  As MA, I think we can grab adds  and peel off mobs great.  In the DPS group?  Ask any melee class what they think of your group berserk proc.  They might fail to notice the str increase, or the hp regen, but they sure notice the berserk proc. <div></div>

[infernus006]

many of the other melee classes i group with on a regular basis, especially scouts, are very impressed by my str buff <div></div>

[Rashen]

I know we can MT in raids so that wasn't an issue they just always seem to stick to the standard or once they do something that works they never change it.  Yes we are much better against group mobs especially with our ae taunt but majority of the raids thats not a factor.  Thanks all for the input.  I was more curious if this was common or unique to me (my guild).   Unfortunately if I want to raid, like I said before, there are no other guilds that are even close to being able to raid what we raid.

[Gavpim]

<P>You should prolly find a new raid leader.....</P> <P> </P> <P>Why on earth would you have two Guardians together in the MT group when you have a Zerker to put in there.  their buffs dont even stack?  We add Health regen, Chaos and DPS by making the group go berserk (easy for tank to hold agro the more dps he can do).</P> <P> </P> <P>Also, Zerker make really good main tanks.  im main tank for a raiding guild.  We raid every night... I've tanks all the instances, the golden and silver dragon all that good stuff and we've done great.</P> <P> </P> <P>Your dps is uber.  Tell your raid leader that.  If your not doing sick DPS in the DPS group your doing something very very wrong.  I can out DPS most classes in a raid.</P> <P> </P> <P>Just go ahead and tell your raid leader to get a clue ;p</P> <P> </P> <P>Hell even if they didnt want to use a Zerker with the guardian in the mt group they shoulda put a pally in there.  Pallys give the MT like 350-400 mitigation, not to mention the extra wards and lay of hands (which can be cast out of group but w/e)</P> <P> </P> <P>Sounds to me like they just have favourates in your guild and they get to go to raids, cant have anything to do with tactics else one of the guardians would have been dropped.</P>

[Rensh]

I am a 60 Zerker on The_Bazaar. I am in a raiding guild that raids everynight as well. All i can say is anyone that thinks a guardian can hold agro better then a berserker on any encounter is crazy. Only thing a guardian is better at is taking hits and with me being almost fully t6 fabled i have no problem with damage as well. I can still out dps any class every 3 minutes.....including warlocks on large encounters, and how many fights last longer then 5 to 8 minutes. If your guild is leaving you out of raids for a guardian its only because they are either playing favorites, or they are silly and stuck on the old way of tanking raids.

[Splinte]

<DIV> <DIV>"The 2 guardians are not in the same group.  In 2 different groups so thats not an issue." </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>GUYS! He already said the gaurds arent in the same group already. So drop it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets face it, our group buffs add nothing to a MT group. Health regen, zerk proc, str buff. If your whole raid is relying on these weak buffs, you are in for a world of hurt. The health regen... not big enough to make a diff, and even if it does, your healers or group is taking more damage than neccessary and will die. The zerk proc, MT is usually healers with the exception of some classes so there isnt alot of melle action going on. And if you are MT'ing and Auto attacking... well the ripostes are just making everything harder. Str buff ... good for auto attacking, but nothing good for a MT group. And you shouldnt be using toooo many CA saving power for taunts and what not. *unless you have several power feeders*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So. Our group utility is worthless, we make OK tanks on the basis that we wear plate armour and thats about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[Rensh]

All i can say is go reroll a guardian, cuz if you think there better tanks you need an eye opener

[Splinte]

"All i can say is go reroll a guardian, cuz if you think there better tanks you need an eye opener" <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok. In what ways are we better than a gaurdian at tanking? Seriously. We hold aggro marginally better because we can out DPS them. But when is holding holding aggro a lil better than staying alive with ridiculous HP, mit?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div>splint im getting really sick of seeing you come here and bash zerkers left and right.  if you hate us so much you need to stop trying to play one and quit coming here.  go play a guard then if you think they are so much better.  you don't know what you are talking about anyway.  being an MT is not just about standing there and taunting, not anymore.  not even for guards.  damage matters too.  the more damage you do to a mob the more it's going to hate you.  you think guardians who MT for raids have their auto attack disabled and don't use any damge ca's at all?  i think not.  you think they care about the damage rating on their 1h just as much as we do?  you bet.  more str means bigger power pool and more melee damage for all fighters.  so don't say the str buff is meaningless because that's bullcrap.  furthermore the berserk proc generated by our group berserk buff gives a considerable increase in offensive melee skills and auto attack rate.  this is not meaningless either.  it helps you keep aggro and beat the mob down faster.  and like i said our hp regen thing could be better but it's not totally worthless either.  serious dude, you're just another zerker hater so get lost.  i love playing my zerker, i MT for groups and raids and guess what...im good at it.  im sorry if you don't have the same success with yours but maybe there is something wrong with you, not us. or maybe you don't even really play a zerker, maybe you only play a guard and you only come here to try and downplay us because you are jealous that we are so good.<p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:20 PM</span>

[Buggrit]

we are not better and we are not worse were equal are mits pretty much equal guards may pull ahead a tiny bit in hp but we make up for that in out dpsing them /shrug <div></div>

[Bantel]

My personal raid preference is, when the zerk is not the mt, put him/her with the scouts, ups their damage output considerably.

[Khal]

<DIV>I am second on the depth chart of main tanking in my guild, so most of the time, that is what I am doing.  I have tanked anything our guardian has so far just as well.  Many raids you need 2 tanks as well, am often in a second main tank group.  Other than that, I am in the dps group for my buffs and often come in top 6 dps anyway.  </DIV><p>Message Edited by Khalad on <span class=date_text>12-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:40 PM</span>

[Splinte]

<DIV>Hey Sador,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have you ever been on a raid before, what raids have you tanked, have you done anything high game? And what are you trying to say? That Zerker group utility is the best? Better than ever? Better than most? Because its not better than it was, and not better than any fighter class. Simple.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I eagerly await your reply.</DIV>

[Strewth]

I have tanked everything from the T5 stuff back in the day to the surrent DoF raids, Guards, Zerks and Pallies like it lump it are all good tanks, there are situations where you will want one of the main 3 (sorry SK's, bur SOE really didn't do their homework) standing up front. I can hit 10k hps and sit on 80% mit all day, Just sounds like your guild is stuck in the old world of 'Guardians are King'. Don't forget this is EQ2, it's 50% equipment and 50% player, not an easy task for a raiding guild to fit out 2 let alone 3 MT's in T6 fabled and the associated right hand slots... <div></div>

[Splinte]

No that doesnt reflect my guild, all im saying is our group utility in a raid situation is minimal.

[Strewth]

Were tanks now, what utility ? <div></div>

[Splinte]

<P>All other tank classes have group utility. And are you saying we dont have any substantial group utility? </P> <P> </P> <P>Pally = crazy rez. amends. AC buffs</P> <P>Bruiser= epic stuns, great tank buff.</P> <P>Monk= same as Bruiser.</P> <P>SK= FD, Evac, AC buffs.</P> <P>Gaurdian= AC, HP,</P> <P>Zerker= group zerk buff, Incombat HP regen?</P>

[Khal]

forgot about grp str buff for close to 100 STR

[Rensh]

OMG with the right group setup i have 10k hp and mitigation is maxed pretty much the entire fight with potions and buffs. What more do you want?.....the mob to see the berserker coming and fall over dead leaving the master chest open and ready? Please go play a guardian, if half the guardians were reading this they would probably fall outa there chair laughing.

[RaspenJ]

I successfully tanked vox last night...Go me.-Z-

[Ayattoll]

I have done much better than guardians on raids that I MTed, offcourse a guardian's buffs helped a lot for that and I was more lucky with t6 single group istances fabled   and masters , also potions helped too, I can cap mitigation at 80% and resists at 70% and i went agility when respecing and seems to help more on avoidance but can reach 10 k hp but i d rather use the agility potion instead of stamina If i where you buddy i would already have found a new guild, to not include you in the raid at least for the dps group its BS

[Yeltaek]

<DIV>"<EM>with the right group setup i have 10k hp and mitigation is maxed pretty much the entire fight with potions and buffs</EM>"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a new recruit to the raiding game would you experienced guys mind giving some more info on what i should be looking for in terms of buffs and ideal group makeup, i dont recall getting close to the figures you guys are getting. Any help would be really appreciated. Feel free to be as detailed as possible <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> maybe my group mates spells just need upgrading etc.</DIV> <DIV>Thanks in advance.</DIV>

[infernus006]

splint, "what are you trying to say? That Zerker group utility is the best? Better than ever? Better than most? Because its not better than it was, and not better than any fighter class. Simple." no i'm saying it is decent, not totally gimped like you are saying.  the point is we are, imo, the best well-rounded and versatile tanks in the game.  we get good mit and good hp and good avoidance for a plate tank, good taunts, and some very nice ca's, and we can do a lot of damage against group encounters.  i don't expect to have better utility than any other fighter class and i don't understand why you think we should.  and quit forgetting the fact that we have an uber str buff.  str is still the most important stat for all fighters as it has been since day one.  if you don't think it matters then i feel sorry for the people who get stuck grouping with you because you just have no idea how to play this game at all. <div></div>

[Danielle_Mindweaver]

<P>Can't say I've had this problem, but then again I organise our raids :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Felmerian (beserker, Clan Nan Dreolan, Permafrost)</P>

[danceswnymphs]

<DIV>As you can see i am not there yet in level but from reading the posts here and my experiences i would say its just sad and a shame that Berserkers would be overlooked as MT in a raid or even as dps. The only Guardians i have ever seen outclass me are those who have better armor/equip/adepts than I and obviously given those circumstances they would be better. I think the originator of this post just thru a guantlet down all Berserkers need to take up...personally i love the Berserker class and i have never believed we were not the ultimate heavy armor fighter class...all we have to do is set up our "berserks", focus on taunts and we rock</DIV>

[Styk]

Hmm never being MT because there is too many guardians? Sounds to me like your in a guild who doesnt know the concept of adapting.... Also if you are getting kicked from a raid because of your class ( despite you being their before others etc ) then its time you found a better guild

[Khal]

Have Mted just about every mob in the game so far and done it well. 

[R2Chie]

<span><blockquote><hr>Splinterr wrote: <p>Bruiser= epic stuns </p> <p>Monk= same as Bruiser.</p><hr> Wrong.! there was a stealth nerf in todays patch and there stun no longer effects epic mobs. </blockquote></span><div></div>

[Splinte]

<DIV>Sador,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Str doesnt mean alot on raids, you could spec all INT for gods sake and still break the STR cap in a raid EASY *providing you are MT'ing* So i dont see our "Uber" Str buff as that vital to staying alive in a MT situation. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"if you don't think it matters then i feel sorry for the people who get stuck grouping with you because you just have no idea how to play this game at all." Feel sorry for me? I just think you havent been on a raid is all. Can you give us a synopsis of your raid experiance or something? Cause im just catching the feeling that your more of a pubber. *Non-heavy raider* Sure STR is great in pick up groups and what not, but not when MT'ing, not that much at all. And what your going to say is "Gives you more power, kills mob faster, blah" You count on OTHER classes to do these things, the MT is there to take hits and press taunts. Run out of Power? Mana stone, Mage battery. Kill mob faster? Taunt more and give your heavy DPS classes more leash. </DIV>

[Styk]

<P>In reality the only tank types with good utility is Paladins ( group heal, good combat rez, amends AC transfer ) and Shadow Knights ( Targetted Feign Death, Evac, AC transfer ) Monks and brusiers can FD while the first can Psunami Pull ( great for initial dmg spike ) and the later can take the first 3 huge hits while pulling ( bruisers ) . Guardians have a group HP buff and group defense buffs that are KEY if you want any other tank to MT.... </P> <P>Berserkers can give str ( woohoo doesnt mean dink on raids since str isnt as big a factor on melee  as int is to nukers ) and worthless [Removed for Content] hp regen, Our "dps buff" gets overwritten by Fury's dps buff so that doesnt mean dink as well ( there is superior as well ) <-------- on this one i hope someone can prove me wrong thru parses etc because i havent noticed any difference personally from the parses ive read from a guildie ( who always runs parses on raids for guild performance ) </P> <P>In a nutshell berserkers only attribute in raids if not tanking is dps, which we are excellent at ESP IF YOU HAVE AN ASSASIN IN YOUR GROUP for APPLIED POISON.... so great dps we have , utility we dont ... also splinterr why do you act as if we have no dps? ( seems like in your latest post you talk as if we aren't "heavy dps" ) ask the various raid zerkers if they have no dps because i know i do ..... </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Styker on <span class=date_text>12-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:04 AM</span>

[Splinte]

<DIV>Good Post Strykr.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I said the leave the killing to the Heavy DPS classes in the situation the Zerker is tanking, YES a Zerker is preety amazing DPS on a large encounter. *Rampage + Openwounds* Our Auto Attack is stacking up with the best, our Off stance sucks IMO. But to the point, Zerkers can tank: Aggro, Wear Plate. We can DPS: Rampage + Open Wounds. We DONT have raid Group Utility: Str, incombat hp regen, group zerk buff. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know i sound like a broken record but SOME ONE, doesnt seem to grasp this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep it Zerk'n</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Terrifyer]

<DIV>When my guild is raiding, unless our 60 zerker is about I get put into the MT group, group berserk, HP regen, STR buff, Vehemence and Chaos on top of it all providing extra mit for our tank. Otherwise it's usually in with the melee DPS team, a 2H weapon (Currently I use an imbued cobalt greatsword) and a decent Attack speed buff can result in a lot of damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do think us zerkers make an excellent job of offtanking adds on a raid. We have the AE taunt and the AE damage for crowd control (Rampage/Open Wounds can cause small groups of adds serious grief) plus we can stand up to hits almost as well as Guards can. I've offtanked in Drayek's Chamber and recieved quite a few pats on the back for doing a decent job. </DIV>

[Kalak]

Didnt have time to read the whole conversation.... but to the author: please kill yourself and roll a different class, thank you I am MT as a zerker as often as not, even if I'm not I out DPS most of the raid (1000-3000dps, depending on grp) And to say that Guards can hold aggro better than me.... I can't even read this [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] anymore <div></div>

[Halc]

<P>Honestly the only raids I sit out from are ranged raids against certain contested mobs or raids I volunteer to sit out from. Otherwise I am in the dps group 9 out of 10 times. </P> <P>I'm sorry to see so many people saying our dps is really low. It has dropped alot from what is was before the combat changes but against single target mobs my dps is still decent using dual wielders (especialy after the upgrade to them) or two handed weapons. Against group encounters (quite a few of them in raid instanced zones) I can be in the top 5 for dps most of the time. Using rampage and/or open wounds, plus our other AoE ca's, I can beat out most scouts and quite a few casters on total dps on a group encounter. Plus I can off tank if needed or tank the raid mob for a short period of time should the MT fall.</P> <P>I went as offensive as possible when I re-speced after the combat change because I knew my guild would still be using a guardian as our MT on raids. All my upgrades to my equip are based on STR first and then STA. I look to do as much damage as possible as quick as possible and if I draw agro I don't lose much sleep over it because I can take a few hits until the MT can get agro back. The only thing I do in that case is move to the MT's side so the raid mob is still positioned correctly and if I have to, turn off my auto attack for a second or 2 to help the MT get agro back.</P>

[infernus006]

<div></div>"Sure STR is great in pick up groups and what not, but not when MT'ing, not that much at all. And what your going to say is "Gives you more power, kills mob faster, blah" You count on OTHER classes to do these things..." hello...the whole point of being a zerker (to me anyway) is that we don't have to rely solely on the heavy dps classes to be doing all the damage because we are actually contributing a substantial amount of it ourselves, even moreso when we are the MT. "the MT is there to take hits and press taunts." i disagree.  not if you're a zerker.  maybe that's all a guardian does but guess what we are not guardians.  that is exactly why i chose the zerker class over the guardian.  zerkers are the more offensive tanks.  we are not supposed to just stand there and take hits like a guardian.  and more str means more power for taunts and other useful ca's such as the extra mit and def buffs we get (when they are needed since they reduce our attack speed) as well as offensive ca's that debuff and do damage. "Run out of Power? Mana stone, Mage battery." um...manastone only gives you back 160 points of mana (that's less than 1% of my power pool) and can only be used every 3 minutes?  rofl.  i still use anyway it but it's not all that great.  and you assume that your mages will always be willing and able to med your power every time you run out?  come on. "Kill mob faster? Taunt more and give your heavy DPS classes more leash." in most cases a zerker will not be able to keep aggro from any heavy dps classes if all they do is stand there and do nothing but taunt.  unless they use IG and/or rescue on every pull which is not practical.  you have to use your damage ca's as well, on a regular basis.  that's what we are all about.  our taunts are decent and we certainly need to be using them as much as possible but we need to be doing some dps as well. <div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>12-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:35 PM</span>

[FlameingInfer]

<DIV>I would love to be the MT on raids! At one point I thought I was better than any other tank class, but,  I guess I'm wrong, as are all of you,  Plz read this thread linked and you will see what I am talking about. its strait from SOE.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>click this link and scroll down about half way to find it.  or just read what he wrote below the link.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=29477&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=chars&message.id=29477&view=by_date_ascending&page=1</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P>Fighters are tanks. They don't all tank the same, and tanking isn't all they do, but that doesn't change the core role all fighters share. While some might envision a different approach, that role isn't going to go away just because some might prefer a different take on certain classes.</P> <P>The combat revamp isn't just a changing of balance numbers; it is a reevaluation of abilities. For fighters, this means some expanded spell lines, some shifting around of abilities from one subclass to another, and changes to the way defensive buffs work.</P> <P><U><STRONG>Right now, guardians are far and away the best tank</STRONG>  </U>due to a combination of their buff stacking and the way defensive buffs are seen in combat rolls. Both those aspects are changing. Think of the guardian's abilities as being spread around a bit to the other fighter classes.</P> <P>In no particular order (other than pairing subclasses of the same class), here are a few (but not all) of the ways tanks will be distinguished from one another after the changes take effect. </P> <UL> <LI>Guardians will have the greatest capability to grant their defense to others. They also have a greater number of taunts. <LI>Berserkers will do more damage than guardians, especially when tanking. While they also have taunts, part of their taunting comes from the damage they do. <LI>Paladins have heals and a nice array of taunts. <LI>Shadowknights have lifetaps and higher damage than paladins. <LI>Monks excel in avoidance, and their ability to purge negative spell effects is being expanded. <LI>Bruisers mitigate a bit better and do more damage than monks, which again is the basis for part of their taunting ability.</LI></UL> <P>All fighters will have useful defensive and offensive stances that they can choose depending on their role in the group. Additionally, each fighter will gain a significant resistance to a particular type of damage, which should make different classes be desirable under certain situations.</P> <P>Again, this isn't about taking away tanking from guardians. I suspect after the revamp, in a lot of raid situations you'd still want a guardian as main tank. However, the changes should give more flexibility to other tank classes, and give situational advantages to each. Personally, I'm looking forward to that.</P> <P>===========================<BR>Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard<BR>Game Designer, EverQuest II </P> <P> </P> <P>He points out that Guards will always be better than us.  </P></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And honestly I think we<STRONG><U> were better before </U></STRONG>the huge revamp of all the classes,  We had ALOT of utlity to bring to a raid I was always asked to be in the MT group for my buffs and that is fine with me, I enjoyed tanking in small groups and I was very useful in raids , as it stands right now Zerkers are lucky to get into the DPS group of a raid, and its only melee DPS that we affect, not casters. Take a look again at our utility, its all based on helping melee.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I guess we are fine when it comes to just a normal gorup (even though our   -   group STR buff (melee only), Group mitigation buff (should only be for me or melee only, caster/healer should stay out of range) , Group HP regen buff (we have a healer, why bother) and Group being able to go berserk buff (again melee only) are completely pointless when it comes to small groups, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/sigh  I really really really want to love my zerker, but SOE just makes it soooo hard for me.</DIV>

[infernus006]

<div></div>^ omg...i think it's hilarious you know how to copy and paste but not how to read. check this out... "He points out that Guards will always be better than us." um no.  actually try reading what he said: "<u><strong>Right now, guardians are far and away the best tank</strong>  </u>due to a combination of their buff stacking and the way defensive buffs are seen in combat rolls. Both those aspects are changing. Think of the guardian's abilities as being spread around a bit to the other fighter classes." he said "<b><font color="#ff0000">right now</font></b>" (as in before the combat revamp when that post was actually written).  duh?  furthermore he goes on to say that is <b><font color="#ff0000">changing</font></b> (in the combat revamp).  "Think of the guardian's abilities as being spread around a bit to the other fighter classes."  how did you miss that? "Berserkers will do more damage than guardians, especially when tanking. While they also have taunts, part of their taunting comes from the damage they do." exactly.  this does not make us weaker tanks than guardians, just different.  more offensive.  the way we were meant to be. "Again, this isn't about taking away tanking from guardians. I suspect after the revamp, in a lot of raid situations you'd still want a guardian as main tank. However, the changes should give more flexibility to other tank classes, and give situational advantages to each." yeah.  the whole point being they watered down guardians a bit in the combat revamp so they wouldn't be as overpowered and gave new abilities to other fighter classes to help them be even better tanks than what they were before.  in other words so guardians wouldn't be the only choice for MT anymore, and that includes on raids. honestly i think some of the so-called zerkers who post on this forum should really have been casters instead.  get yourself some in-game int to make up for your severe lack of it in rl. <div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>12-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:20 PM</span>

[Victicu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR> <P> Our "dps buff" gets overwritten by Fury's dps buff so that doesnt mean dink as well ( there is superior as well ) <-------- on this one i hope someone can prove me wrong thru parses etc because i havent noticed any difference personally from the parses ive read from a guildie ( who always runs parses on raids for guild performance )</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>The Fury DPS buff can only be put on one person.  The Berzerker DPS buff is for the entire group i believe.</P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[infernus006]

<div></div>^ yes druids (wardens and furies) get a buff that they can apply to a single groupmate that ups their offensive melee skills (crushing, piercing, and slashing).  the zerker dps buff is a group berserk buff that applies to every member of the group and allows them to proc berserk the same way that we do and it not only increases their offensive melee skills but also their attack speed at the same time.  and i see no reason why the skills would not stack with each other.  the only thing i'm really not sure about is if they have to get hit for the berserk buff to proc like we do with our personal one. <div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>12-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:59 PM</span>

[Splinte]

<P>"um...manastone only gives you back 160 points of mana (that's less than 1% of my power pool) and can only be used every 3 minutes?"</P> <P>You sure about that?</P>

[infernus006]

^ um...yeah. <div></div>

[Splinte]

<DIV>well then. All i gotta say is that your journey from lvl 1-60 has been meaningless. The reuse timer on Manastone is 60 secs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Good-day.</DIV>

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div>^ oh yeah you're right!  i double-checked it tonight, it gives 150 health points back and has a 60 second reuse timer.  wow my mistake...my life is totally useless now...i guess i should just go and commit suicide!  but guess what...that's still pretty darn crappy lol.  so shove it.  it is a gray item from a lowbie hq so what do you expect?  oh yeah and don't forget it takes away a lot more health than the amount power it gives back so in most cases it's not even remotely worth using in combat.  i use it between pulls to help with out of combat power medding and that's about it.<p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>12-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:10 AM</span>

[kono]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> infernus006 wrote: <P>"um...manastone only gives you back 160 points of mana (that's less than 1% of my power pool) and can only be used every 3 minutes?"<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wow, congrats on your 16,000 point power pool! :smileysurprised:  </P> <P>Of course, I'd probably still run out of power if I had that much.  My Manastone is hotkey #1 for good reason.</P> <P>najena.konk</P><p>Message Edited by konofo on <span class=date_text>12-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:54 AM</span>

[infernus006]

"Wow, congrats on your 16,000 point power pool!" ok first of all i was the one that posted that not him, he was just quoting me.  and that is a corret, 160 is less than 1% of 2700 (the amount of power points i normally have).  do the math it's not that hard.  but since in reality it only replenishes 150 points of your power hmm let's see...that is almost .06% of my total power assuming that it is exactly 2700 (when in reality it is a bit more than that so really the percentage is even lower since the bigger your power pool is the lower the percentage will be).  and in raids i have closer to 4k of power so um...rofl. another thing splint, maybe you forgot the fact they changed the effect on manastone after the combat revamp so it used to be different than what it is now.  so screw you! <div></div>

[Teeuff]

1% of 2700 is 27

[kono]

<DIV>Thanks, I fixed my quoting oversight. I knew who the quote was from, but neglected to fix it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since I'm feeling helpful today, here's <A href="http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/sets/select/dm_percentage.html" target=_blank>some percentage assistance from Dr. Math</A>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>najena.konk</DIV>

[infernus006]

<div></div>^ ok you are right, i appologize math is not my strong point (forgot to move the decimals).  so i was wrong about the exact percentage.  but anyways, like i said, i still use it but imo it's not all the great.  it's not supposed to be at higher levels.  but the whole point was that splint keeps trying to say that str does not matter one bit for the mt in a raid so a zerkers group str buff is totally useless.  he says who cares if str gives you more power because you can rely soloely on manastone and the mages in your group to med your power all the time.  i still disagree with that very much. <div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>12-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:01 PM</span>

[kono]

<DIV>Yeah, I'd say strength does matter in that role, but it's not the top priority.  Being able to mix in more attacks along with your taunt cycle is a good thing, as is getting more damage (and aggro) from the attacks you do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>najena.konk</DIV>

[infernus006]

^ that's how i feel too.  it does help.  that's all i was trying to say. <div></div>

[Pin StNeedl]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> infernus006 wrote:<BR>^ that's how i feel too.  it does help.  that's all i was trying to say.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I MT virtually all the time, and virtually any setup we use, I have well over 400str (usually 500, occasionally up to 700). As the cap for str at level 60 is 440 for effecting both damage and power pool, it doesn't do anything at all for me when tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, it does benefit other members of the group and Berserker buffs are very nice for melee DPS groups.</DIV>

[FlameingInfer]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> infernus006 wrote:<BR> ^ ok you are right, i appologize math is not my strong point (forgot to move the decimals).  so i was wrong about the exact percentage.  but anyways, like i said, i still use it but imo it's not all the great.  it's not supposed to be at higher levels.  but the whole point was that splint keeps trying to say that str does not matter one bit for the mt in a raid so a zerkers group str buff is totally useless.  he says who cares if str gives you more power because you can rely soloely on manastone and the mages in your group to med your power all the time.  i still disagree with that very much.<BR> <P>Message Edited by infernus006 on <SPAN class=date_text>12-06-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:01 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Ok and your the one talking about INT in real life ohh let me quote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> "honestly i think some of the so-called zerkers who post on this forum should really have been casters instead.  get yourself some in-game int to make up for your severe lack of it in rl."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and if you cant tell I was being completely facetious in my post  then your the one who need RL INT. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  Don't be a male reproductive organ!</DIV>

[Splinte]

<P>^^ Pwned.</P> <P> </P> <DIV>Thanks, I fixed my quoting oversight. I knew who the quote was from, but neglected to fix it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since I'm feeling helpful today, here's <A href="http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/sets/select/dm_percentage.html" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>some percentage assistance from Dr. Math</FONT></A>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>najena.konk</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>^^ Rofl. nice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways. Power is usually only a issue on really long fights for instance Moonchild  thats a mob from... Well from your extensive raid knowledge you should know that, so why waste my time. But Manastone is free power, they are giving you power for just staying alive long enough to see the timer tick over. Why NOT use it? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the only real stats a tank needs now is Stam and Wisdom. STR is not that usefull on a raid serving as the MT, especially because hitting the soft cap is SOOOO easy its not even funny. But how about we pose the question like this, If SOE by some crazy whim decided to give us a choice on what buffs do you want to take. +100 Str? or... 100 Stam? From a raid perspective the choice is easy, Stam.</DIV>

[Gavpim]

<DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Splinterr Said:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>And the only real stats a tank needs now is Stam and Wisdom. STR is not that usefull on a raid serving as the MT, especially because hitting the soft cap is SOOOO easy its not even funny. But how about we pose the question like this, If SOE by some crazy whim decided to give us a choice on what buffs do you want to take. +100 Str? or... 100 Stam? From a raid perspective the choice is easy, Stam.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>End Quote</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This statement is so far from right.  I GOOD tank now needs to try and keep almost ALL his stats to a similar lvl.  Intellegence is now Very important to a tank, as is wisdom.  Intellegence because if you tanking end game mobs with low intelegence your taunts aint gunna do nothing but waste power and you casters arent gunna like you much when they die alot.  Wisdom because it increases you Spell Avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>STR lets face it is Easy for a zerker to get up in most MT setups, but its still important since the DPS the tank put out contributes alot to how well he will keep agro/how heavy the DPS classes can go without stealing agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>STA of course hit point so this is also important.  AGI Avoidance (which i personally would rather have this higher than STA, cause i'd rather Avoid an attack completely than have high hit points and still take a hit, still both are important)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So we need em all as an MT thats the bottom line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cant be bothered to scroll through to see who keeps saying Guardians are far better tanks than Zerkers but its just not true at all.  I saw someone quote what SOE said that Guardians should be better than zerkers, well i say to that person, since when has what SOE says in their Class Specifications bore a perfect reflection of the actual game play?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In the right MT group I push a constant 4740 mitigation, and when i cast Wall of Rage and Choas i blow right past the cap for 30seconds every 30 seconds.  I hit 64.5 Avoidance.  the only area i lack a little is hit points which i only generally get to around 8800 in the MT group, but with that mitigation, and that avoidance the HP that i have is plenty.  I also hold agro better than any guardian i have met to date.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So theres a tanking Zerkers Stats.  Lets see a Tanking Guardians Stats and see just how much better they really are?</DIV></DIV>

[infernus006]

<div></div>"But Manastone is free power..." ok yeah and the zerker str buff is not? "Why NOT use it?" i already told you repeatedly that i DO still use it.  i never said i didn't.  i never said you shouldn't.  but if i had to choose between my str buff and manastone...guess what. "And the only real stats a tank needs now is Stam and Wisdom." what about agi for more avoicance?  you think that's not important either?  rofl... "Intellegence is now Very important to a tank, as is wisdom.  Intellegence because if you tanking end game mobs with low intelegence your taunts aint gunna do nothing but waste power and you casters arent gunna like you much when they die alot." i know wisdom is important to have more resists but i've never heard that int has anything to do with how good your taunts work.  where did this come from? <div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:38 PM</span>

[Gavpim]

Taunts are Spells, Spells work off your Intellegence.  Higher your intellegence the more likely your Taunt/Spell will land on the mob and not be resisted.  And when your fighting lvl 62-68 x4 mobs... this is umm kinda important.

[uux]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gavpimmy wrote:Taunts are Spells, Spells work off your Intellegence.  Higher your intellegence the more likely your Taunt/Spell will land on the mob and not be resisted.  And when your fighting lvl 62-68 x4 mobs... this is umm kinda important. <div></div><hr></blockquote> I'm pretty sure the idea of your intellegence vs. the mob's was removed before the combat revamp went live.  I know intellegence doesn't increase the amount of threat produced from taunts.  AFAIK, there is no *visible* change to a zerker's taunts, resists, buffs, or combat arts.</span><div></div>

[infernus006]

<div></div>"Taunts are Spells, Spells work off your Intellegence.  Higher your intellegence the more likely your Taunt/Spell will land on the mob and not be resisted." um...i thought taunts were considered combat arts, not "spells".  they are listed as combat arts.  berserkers don't get any magic-based spells that i know of, we are a pure melee class.  we don't even have a tab for spells in our knowledge book and we have no magical skills at all.  so as far as i can tell int does nothing for us nor is it supposed to.  we are not supposed to need it the same way mages don't need str for anything important they do.  if any stat has any effect on how much our ca's will be resisted i expect it to be str since that is our primary stat.  but i don't think it does actually, i think the only thing that really effects the frequency that your combat arts will be resisted is their level and quality. <div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>12-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:25 PM</span>

[dremtak]

imo agro is the key..........lost agro even for a secound can wipe a raid. is any plate class better at tanking then the other............YES....................but its situational. zerkers are the king at locking down multiple targets and holding its agro...................that is our specialty and it is where we shine. <div></div>

[Gavpim]

<P>Fearsome Shout, and Outrage are spells.  I dont care where there listed.  heres why:</P> <P> </P> <P>CA's never get resisted, they only miss are blocked or are parried.  Outrage and Fearsome Shout get resisted ergo they are spells.</P> <P> </P> <P>Secondly, Outrage and Fearsome Shout work with Precision of the Maestro a troubador spell which procs damage when SPELLS are cast, not CA's.</P> <P> </P> <P>These two taunts are spells.  Our int doesnt seem to increase they're threat ratio, but it does seem to increase my chance to land the spell and not have it resisted.</P>

[Splinte]

<DIV> <P>"CA's never get resisted, they only miss are blocked or are parried.  Outrage and Fearsome Shout get resisted ergo they are spells.</P> <P> </P> <P>Secondly, Outrage and Fearsome Shout work with Precision of the Maestro a troubador spell which procs damage when SPELLS are cast, not CA's."</P> <P>Good point. If you can get some hard evidence on this that would rock. But the more i think about it, the more it makes sense.</P></DIV>

[Impetus]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Gavpimmy wrote: <p>These two taunts are spells.  Our int doesnt seem to increase they're threat ratio, but it does seem to increase my chance to land the spell and not have it resisted.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote></span>I'd be interested to see if that's really the case. For mages at least, intelligence is not supposed to have any bearing on resist rate. According to developer statements, the only things that affect spell resists are: level (that is, your level vs opponent's level) resistances (and debuffs) skill buffs (like +disruption, for example) and for mezzes, stuns, roots, etc, the quality of the spell (apprentice 2/3/4, adept 1/3, master 1/2) - quality of the spell is not supposed to matter for something like ice comet <div></div><p>Message Edited by Impetus on <span class=date_text>12-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:54 PM</span>

[Pin StNeedl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gavpimmy wrote:<BR> <P>Secondly, Outrage and Fearsome Shout work with Precision of the Maestro a troubador spell which procs damage when SPELLS are cast, not CA's.</P> <P>These two taunts are spells.  Our int doesnt seem to increase they're threat ratio, but it does seem to increase my chance to land the spell and not have it resisted.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Intelligence only raises the damage of spells. It doesn't effect the resist rate. So, it will make that troub buff proc for more damage, but that's the only extra hate you'll gain from it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Lechac]

<div></div>So, if we sum it up, raising INT will only affect the damage from magic procs (buffs from group members and such) but it won't help with the resist rate on taunts.I read somewhere here that our taunts are resisted on mental, like all tanks except maybe SK's that get resisted on disease. Debuffing mob's mental resist should then help taunts to land correctly.And that leaves us with STR, STA and WIS to raise for raiding zerkers. STR beeing absurdly easy to max in any kind of MT group setup, and (correct me if I'm wrong) AGI won't help us much plate people in regards to getting any kind of significant avoidance boost.STR to max damages and the agro we get from it, STA obviously for the hit points, and WIS to raise magic mitigations, swapping gear to match a mob's prefered magic damage not beeing an option when you MT.<div></div><p>Message Edited by Lechacal on <span class=date_text>12-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:01 AM</span>

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div>"These two taunts are spells.  Our int doesnt seem to increase they're threat ratio, but it does seem to increase my chance to land the spell and not have it resisted." Even if they are "spells" like you say then what makes you so sure that having more INT decreases their chance to be resisted?  By your theory having more STR should decrease the chance that all our other CA's have to miss or be blocked or parried then.  But in reality I think it's only the level of the spell and it's quality that has anything to do with that.  Skill points may be a factor as well.  But from what I understand none of your stats have anything to do with the rate that your spells or CA's are resisted. "and (correct me if I'm wrong) AGI won't help us much plate people in regards to getting any kind of significant avoidance boost." It may not be that significant but every little bit helps.<p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>12-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:05 AM</span>

[Victicu]

<P>Intelligence is useless on warriors, it certainly does not affect resist rates, and it also does not increase total threat.</P> <P> </P>

[uux]

There were threads started before the combat update where developers mentioned your stats would be compared to a mob's during a fight.  Your agi versus the mob's agi would determine how often you would hit the mob, etc.  I don't recall what stats were compared exactly (int vs int, or int vs wis?).  I do know this was dropped before the update went live.  I'm sure the mob's agi plays a part in avoidance still, but no penalty to you  for having low agi while trying to land a hit.  It's weighed against the mob's avoidance, not your agi.  This could be where the idea of int having an effect on taunts is coming from.  I have had my int buffed over 200 before (not bad since it's 48 normally).  I can't say I have noticed any increase in effectiveness of taunts. Spell level concerns me a bit.  If a weapon with a minimum skill of 15 levels below you (con's white still) has a hard time hitting mobs higher than you simply due to level, then how well does our level 50 encounter taunt fare against level 65+ mobs if the same system is applied to spells and combat arts? <div></div>

[infernus006]

"how well does our level 50 encounter taunt fare against level 65+ mobs if the same system is applied to spells and combat arts?" well thats why i got master2 on mine. <div></div>

[uux]

<span><blockquote><hr>infernus006 wrote:"how well does our level 50 encounter taunt fare against level 65+ mobs if the same system is applied to spells and combat arts?" well thats why i got master2 on mine. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I also chose Fearsome Shout for the master 2 upgrade.  Nonetheless, if spell level is significant, it's still a level 50 combat art.  I couldn't even tell you if having a master 2 versus an adept 3 or apprentice 2 will cause it to be resisted less.  It's definately more effective in that it has a larger threat increase associated with it.</span><div></div>

[infernus006]

"<span>I couldn't even tell you if having a master 2 versus an adept 3 or apprentice 2 will cause it to be resisted less." well i'm not 100% sure that it does but somewhere someone said it does...and maybe it's just my imagination but ever since i got the master2 it does seem to be resisted less often than when i just had ad3 of it, especially on higher-level mobs.  in fact i would even say that my master2 of fearsome shout gets resisted less often than my ad3 of outrage does. </span><div></div>

[Pin StNeedl]

<P>Level of spell (level 50 or 59) has no bearing on resist rate. Quality of spell (app, adept, master) does.</P>

[Bry]

I didnt read this whole post, but to respond to some of the stuff i head on the first page.  First of all i do not have extensive raiding experience, but i hit 50 right as the expansion droped and have been raiding all the old world mobs on my way to 60.  From that experience so far, I love having a zerker in my group.  As a bruiser who is near the top of the dps list in most of my raids having a zerker in the melle dps group kicks [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].  Without a zerker or bard my dps is around 300, depending alot on which raid and group setup.  With a zerker and bard in group i have hit over 460 <div></div>

[Pinche Va]

<P>Im a lvl 60 zerker who tanks for a raid guild who does T6 stuff 5 of 7 nights a week. I am the preferred tank on most encounters. We dont do the uber end game stuff yet, but I have tanked Gates of Ahket Ahken, Court of Al'Afaz and Silent City epics since the expansion came out on a regular basis. On multiple mob encounters, its just so easy to get and maintain agro. On single targets I still struggle, but really only the paladins dont have issues as far as taunt goes. Our main SK seems to fair a bit better on single target taunting, but hey, I cant have everything. </P> <P> </P> <P>I think our only issue is taunt resist rates currently. And that goes for all tank types. Once again I think we need another line of shield bashes that has a monster taunt attached to it. Different timer from Press. Put 1k-1500 agro on it, and I wont have to apologize to all the mage/scouts when they have to repair twice as much as the rest. Normally, I'd say its their own fault, but we use Teamspeak, and when I tell them they can turn up the dps a little, invariably someone gets over zealous. I feel bad, but I do it again next pull anyway.../cackle.</P>

[einar4]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pin StNeedles wrote:<BR> <P>Level of spell (level 50 or 59) has no bearing on resist rate. Quality of spell (app, adept, master) does.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>True, all things being equal, that is.  The relative level of the mob and the tank is significant also, just as it is for "To Hit" probability. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SugarGirl]

<P>I was happy to see this post up. I've just joined a raiding guild, so I haven't tanked that many epic mobs.. however, I know that, with the right group and situation zerkers are every bit as capable as any other tank. On regular occassion, I would tank for a Zerk/Brig/Temp trio and we could clear just about anything we put our mind to.</P> <P>Many guilds I think are still using guards because that's what they are comfortable with.. and there is nothing wrong with this. Guards can normally successfully tank just about anything, However, it probably (as all zerkers know), isn't the best use of resources. Being in any other role than MT for grouped mobs seriously [Removed for Content] us (and warlocks) since we can't do what we do best (AE damage and aggro).</P> <P>I've actuall thought that guards would be much better in a role to protect the MT. Every tank other than a guard excels in one area or another over a guard, but lacks the mitigation, HP, and defense of a guard. (i.e. avoidance for brawlers, damage and group aggro for zerkers, single mob aggro for crusaders). One of the biggest complaints I heard from guards after the combat revamp was that many of their new arts were protection buffs for their group and that if they were doing their job, the group wouldn't need protection buffs.</P> <P>It makes sense to me that, if SoE was trying to balance the classes, they would have one of their 'master plans' as to what they considered the ultimate raid configuration. The way I see it, those group protection buffs would come in awful handy in the MT group with one of the other tank types MTing. Mixed with the Templar and Inq buffs i think just about any tank type could probably hit most of their caps. In the case of Zerkers as well, any guardians in the raid would could keep their intercede on the MT to absorb hits (in some cases, this would be the equivilent of around a 5,000 point heal. Being in a group with a zerker means that you have accelerated regen, so by the time the next intercept is ready (1 min 40 sec) most guards will have regened the last hit off already. </P> <P>Hell I have a ton of thought on the usefulness of zerkers... but it's like 3am and I am rambling now.</P> <P> At any rate, to answer the OP, hang in there bud. At some point we will be useful. Maybe ask your guild leader to give you a chance with some grouped mobs.. then show them what a zerker can do!</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by SugarGirl on <span class=date_text>12-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:59 AM</span>

[Eirgo]

<DIV>Hey guys,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a couple questions about Zerkers MTing in raids.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Do wards interfere with the taunt procs from Taunting Defense and Insolent Gibe?  The spell discription says that it can proc when you are damaged, so I was wondering if it counts if you are warded.  I looked over some of my logs but wards arent broadcasted to where I could see them - however on all the procs from Taunting Defense I did see where he took damage immediately before the proc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) What do you like to see in your MT group?  I usually like Templar/Warden/Defiler/Dirge + MT + Conjuror, but if wards effect your hate gain adversely would it be better to replace the Defiler with a Guardian for more HP and Def?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for any info,</DIV>

[SugarGirl]

<DIV>Zerker, Temp, Inq, Brigand, Assassin, Coercer</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as wards. I pretty sure they don't interfere with counter procs. The reason beeing that if you have a 500 HP ward, and a mob attacks and deals a 250 hp blow, then your ward is reduced by 250 hp. That sounds like a hit to me. I haven't tried this yet to see, but it would make sense that they wouldn't interfere. A</DIV><p>Message Edited by SugarGirl on <span class=date_text>12-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:45 AM</span>

[Eirgo]

<P>Thanks for the reply:smileyhappy:</P> <P>Hmm that seems an odd MT group.  </P> <P>The Inq would only add a little STA, and a dps buff that would go well in a Melee DPS group</P> <P>the brigand doesnt have any buffing utility, </P> <P>the assassin has a hate transfer - but not as good as a Dirge's and apply poison which would be good on a zerker or brawler</P> <P>the Coercer has mana regen and hate transfer that isnt as good as a Dirges , hate dps buff that would go better on a scout</P> <DIV>Of course this is only looking at the buffing aspect of it though.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Eirgorn on <span class=date_text>12-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:09 PM</span>

[Eirgo]

<P>OK I looked through my log again and found several spots that looked like this:</P> <P>(1134535420)[Tue Dec 13 23:43:40 2005] a royal stalker hits Zerker01 but fail to inflict any damage.<BR>(1134535420)[Tue Dec 13 23:43:40 2005] Zerker01 tries to confound a royal stalker with Insolent Gibe, but a royal stalker resists.</P> <DIV>Failed to inflict damage would show up when it was warded right?</DIV>

[Mjollnyr]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Eirgorn wrote:<div>Hey guys,</div> <div> </div> <div>I have a couple questions about Zerkers MTing in raids.  </div> <div> </div> <div>1) Do wards interfere with the taunt procs from Taunting Defense and Insolent Gibe?  The spell discription says that it can proc when you are damaged, so I was wondering if it counts if you are warded.  I looked over some of my logs but wards arent broadcasted to where I could see them - however on all the procs from Taunting Defense I did see where he took damage immediately before the proc.</div> <div> </div> <div>2) What do you like to see in your MT group?  I usually like Templar/Warden/Defiler/Dirge + MT + Conjuror, but if wards effect your hate gain adversely would it be better to replace the Defiler with a Guardian for more HP and Def?</div> <div> </div> <div>Thanks for any info,</div><hr></blockquote>1) Within the first month of DoF, wards did in-fact hinder our taunting defense.  I haven't confirmed if it still does, i know they have done several changes for Shamans in recent patchs so this may have been resolved. </span><span> 2) meh, different encounters different MT group setups. In regards to what Berserkers bring to raids. We off-tank better then most, since we can grab agro better then almost any classes besides perhaps Monks.  We <i>can</i> MT, but unfortunately Guardians are more specifically designed to. We can provide excellant buffs for dps classes.  We also provide decent dps on single targets, and in the top-3 on multi-mob encounters (every 3 minutes of course <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />).  There are many other uses for a berserker in a raid, these are just the typical roles we fill. Stats wise: All stats are important.  I also beleive INT does actually affect our resist rates.  I also beleive our taunts are Mental based, so mental resistant mobs resist our taunts more often.  INT will of course still be the last stat i actively look for, sta/agi/wis/str/int, in that order. Since raid stats is completely subjective to the quality of the buffers (adept1-master1?) and the MT group setup, i'll just list my self buffed (non-temp buffs, no potions, and only sta/agi rings) stats.  Defensive stance: 3692 mitigation, 48.5% avoidance, 5986 hps. </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Mjollnyr on <span class=date_text>12-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:30 PM</span>

[tbotus]

<DIV>Since I don't feel like reading all of the usual garbage that is replied... forgive me if I repeat some things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.) Berserkers can raid tank T6 mobs easily. So can SK's, Guardians, Pally's. Brawlers seem to be very flaky so I don't pick them. They don't get hit often, but when they do... good lord.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.) Berserkers aren't that good of DPS? Where the hell did that come from? I know multiple berserkers that can dish out between 500-600 DPS in a sustained fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, take it or leave it... berserkers can DPS and Tank. Still.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Alonden, Level 60 Inquisitor</DIV> <DIV>Leader of Paragon, Crushbone Server</DIV>

[Eirgo]

<P>Ok sorry if my point #2 was a bit misleading.  </P> <P>I was trying to get some feedback on encounters where a Berserker would be the MT.  </P> <P>So you could have Zerker / 3 healers / Dirge / Open Slot - where the open slot could be a Guard for more MIT + HP, or a mage for resists, or an assassin with apply poison and hate transfer (not sure if that would stack properly with the dirges +% to MT hate though - Ive heard it can get buggy) as one option.  Are there any classes you just love having in the MT group with you?</P> <P>My guild has a 60 zerker that is relatively new to the MT role - but he has been doing really well against some x4 named we've run into and I just want to make sure we flesh out his MT group well.  </P> <P>Oh yeah, he does great DPS too - even when MT'ing :smileyhappy:</P> <P>Thanks for the replies!</P>

[Splinte]

<DIV>good MT group, Temp/Ward/Dirge/Mystic/SK or Pally. and then who ever you have tanking... be it Gaurdian or Zerker.</DIV>

[SugarGirl]

<DIV> <P>Thanks for the reply<IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0></P> <P>Hmm that seems an odd MT group. </P> <P>The Inq would only add a little STA, and a dps buff that would go well in a Melee DPS group</P> <P>the brigand doesnt have any buffing utility,</P> <P>the assassin has a hate transfer - but not as good as a Dirge's and apply poison which would be good on a zerker or brawler</P> <P>the Coercer has mana regen and hate transfer that isnt as good as a Dirges , hate dps buff that would go better on a scout</P> <DIV>Of course this is only looking at the buffing aspect of it though.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Eirgorn on <SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>12-14-2005</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:09 PM</SPAN></P> <P> </P> <P>Bah My bad.... I was thinking regular group.. in which case I stick to my original post. For a raid group, I don't think there really is a do all be all MT group. Raid groups are dependant on many factors, including Mob Types, Mob attacks, grouped or ungrouped, and what you have for the other groups. If your only goal is to stay alive, then it's easy. Zerker, Guard, Temp, Inq, Warden, Fury. But if you are trying to keep aggro on multiple mobs with Warlocks in the raid, that won't work. You'll need mana regen so you can spam your nukes to keep aggro (Insolent Gibe alone won't maintain aggro against warlocks). If you have a single target mob with a ton of hitpoints... switch the zerker out and put him in the scout group. Move a Pally/Guard or Guard/Monk combo to the MT group.</P> <P>The one thing I honestly think of raids groups is (and some may disagree) you should never depend on just one tank. All of the tank classes have abilities that keep each other alive. One thing is true of raid groups though.. it is all dependant on who you have and what you are fighting.. there is no perfect group.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P></DIV>

[Do]

<span><blockquote><hr>Pinche Vato wrote:<div></div> <p>Im a lvl 60 zerker who tanks for a raid guild who does T6 stuff 5 of 7 nights a week. I am the preferred tank on most encounters. We dont do the uber end game stuff yet, but I have tanked Gates of Ahket Ahken, Court of Al'Afaz and Silent City epics since the expansion came out on a regular basis. On multiple mob encounters, its just so easy to get and maintain agro. On single targets I still struggle, but really only the paladins dont have issues as far as taunt goes. Our main SK seems to fair a bit better on single target taunting, but hey, I cant have everything. </p> <p>I think our only issue is taunt resist rates currently. And that goes for all tank types. Once again I think we need another line of shield bashes that has a monster taunt attached to it. Different timer from Press. Put 1k-1500 agro on it, and I wont have to apologize to all the mage/scouts when they have to repair twice as much as the rest. Normally, I'd say its their own fault, but we use Teamspeak, and when I tell them they can turn up the dps a little, invariably someone gets over zealous. I feel bad, but I do it again next pull anyway.../cackle.</p><hr></blockquote></span>Im confused on the issue of group vs single target taunting ability. Doesnt all the group taunt skills/abilities work on single targets? <div></div>

[tbotus]

<DIV>The difference lay in Reinforcement vs. Insolent Gibe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Reinforcement (The guardian spell) requires the guardian to hit a single target and inflict a large amount of threat with 1 priority increase.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Insolent Gibe requires the creatures to hit the Berserker in order for it to sustain aggro... thusly, berserkers hold a large number of readily swinging creatures far better, since the guardian would have to move between the creatures.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Alonden, Level 60 Inquisitor</DIV> <DIV>Leader of Paragon, Crushbone Server</DIV>

[Urglu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tbotus wrote:<BR> <DIV>The difference lay in Reinforcement vs. Insolent Gibe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Reinforcement (The guardian spell) requires the guardian to hit a single target and inflict a large amount of threat with 1 priority increase.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Insolent Gibe requires the creatures to hit the Berserker in order for it to sustain aggro... thusly, berserkers hold a large number of readily swinging creatures far better, since the guardian would have to move between the creatures.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>--Alonden, Level 60 Inquisitor</DIV> <DIV>Leader of Paragon, Crushbone Server</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Most Guardians hit Reinforcement and then use an AE attack to get threat and +1 priority on multiple mobs. <BR>

[tbotus]

I'll double check, but I believe it supposed to be only a melee attack, so if it's function via AE it more than likely is bugged and will be fixed eventually. In any event, Guardians don't get a fair number of AE's and threat priority +1 and 352 threat at Master 1 means diddly squat. A warlock with Precision of the Maestro and Aria of Exaltation cranking on him will destroy a Guardian's chance at holding the aggro. --Alonden, Level 60 Inquisitor  Leader of Paragon, Crushbone Server <div></div>

[uux]

<span><blockquote><hr>tbotus wrote:I'll double check, but I believe it supposed to be only a melee attack, so if it's function via AE it more than likely is bugged and will be fixed eventually. In any event, Guardians don't get a fair number of AE's and threat priority +1 and 352 threat at Master 1 means diddly squat. A warlock with Precision of the Maestro and Aria of Exaltation cranking on him will destroy a Guardian's chance at holding the aggro. --Alonden, Level 60 Inquisitor  Leader of Paragon, Crushbone Server <div></div><hr></blockquote> A melee attack doesn't necessarily mean autoattack.  You probably have an AE that does melee damage.   AFAIK, most fighter classes have at least one that comes from the Whirl line of arts. </span><div></div>

[infernus006]

<div></div>Guardian - 52 - Reinforcement - Increases the hate position of the guardian for every enemy the guardian successfully attacks. Berserker - 52 - Insolent Gibe - Increases the hate of all enemies near the berserker. Additionally, when taking damage there is a chance to increase the hate of all enemies in an encounter<div></div>

[Doobur]

I have been reading all these posts and can not wait to get to a point to where I understand what all this means. at lvl 23 one taunt will usually suffice for a fight . Aside from that thanks to all the people that put up these posts and prepare young Zerkers like myself for the future. Your like mentors or teachers :robotvery-happy: