HP Regen and Agro suggestions.

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>Id like to throw out a few suggestions if people would like to take a postive outlook on how it could effect us all and not a individual.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Id like to start of with our HP regen line, mainly the Group one which is the Rage line, to be honest i feel and many others do feel the same way that our HP regens are a great idea, but they are a tad underpowered for the amount of damage output that mobs accually inflict on any one person.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now im not asking for a "God" like Group HP regen buff but im asking that it be looked at so it better suits the Berserker class, maybe something along the lines as seeing that we are Berserkers and we are desinged to Berserk, maybe have them grow in HP regen strength per tick the more we Berserk while of course having a max cap it can reach from constantly being in a Berserk state.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So for example, it has a Base of 55 HP regen per tick with no Berserk, we go Berserk the first time and it bumps up to say 58 HP regen per tick, Berserk a second time and it bumps up again to 61 HP regen per tick etc etc, maybe limit the amount of times it can be increased by Berserker to say 5 Procs OR just make a cap for it too hit say like 85 HP regen per tick while in Combat, when the fight finishs and combat subsides, it goes back to Base of 55 HP regen per tick.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Onto Agro control, this is most likely the most heated discussion in the Berserker forums at present with out a doubt, and seeing that even Brusiers and a number of other Tanks are having a much much easier time not just maintaining agro but also controling it at the same time id like to suggest some ideas here about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The main problem i see with controling and maintaining Agro is resisted Taunts, this is mainly based on level con differences and Spelll / CA quaility of the Taunt you are using, this goes for all Tank classes. Now please refrain from any negative thinking to those classes that i use in this example because im not in any way asking for nerfs, im asking for a evaluation of the current Berserker taunts that are mixed with alot of our Direct Damage plus Taunt lines.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Id like to suggest our Defense line which consists of :</DIV> <UL> <LI>Provoking Defense ( lvl 29 )</LI> <LI>Offending Defense ( lvl 44 )</LI> <LI>Taunting Defense ( lvl 57 )</LI></UL> <P>Now these are very similar to a Guardians AoE taunt, but the problem i see here is that ours ( Taunting Defense ) is a 20% chance to proc at Master I quaility a Encounter only AoE Taunt for 366 Threat, where a Guardian on the other hand has ( Inflaming Defense ) a 50% chance to proc a encounter only AoE Taunt for 366 at Adept I quaility.</P> <P>Now considering that the reason it is like this is because we have a damage proc that is tied in with our Defense line where a Guardian does not, and i totally agree with this, but the fact is, it does not weigh out in the sense that the damage component of the CA weighs out the same as a Guardians 50% chance to proc a pure AoE encounter only taunt for a number of reasons :</P> <OL> <LI>Taunts simply resist too much.</LI> <LI>We need to be getting hit for the Combat Art to proc and with the way Avoidance works so good now for tanking roles this makes it a issue to be hit to generate the proc when we only have a 20% chance to proc it to begin with, let alone its half the amount a Guardian can have it proc for and they can have it proc 30% more often therefore the extra 150 - 270 damage across the encounter simply doesnt weigh out to balance it.</LI> <LI>With Avoidance working the way it is in the sense of Parry, Block, Dodge and Riposte, it makes it very hard to get hit to proc this ability and when we do get hit we have a chance of the taunts resisting across any mobs with in the encounter.</LI></OL> <P>Suggestion to fix this is too maybe increase the amount of threat generated by the Defense line to balance it out with other Tank classes abilitys to control and maintain agro like they can but do it as a Berserker with the help from the Damage component of the CA.</P> <P>Here is a small example ( these i took from ingame with 280 STR, Berserker i asked for Taunting Defense was capped out.) :</P> <UL> <LI>Offending Defense Master I is Increase Threat by 261 and Inflicts 117 - 196 damage on target ( 280 STR ).</LI> <LI>Offending Defense Master II is increase Threat by 269 and inflicts 121 - 202 damage on target ( 280 STR ).</LI> <LI>Taunting Defense Master I is Increase Threat by 366 and inflicts 188 - 313 damage on target ( 590 STR capped at 420).</LI></UL> <P>Now take into consideration that yes it has damage in there, but its a 20% chance to proc and a Guardian has the same Threat Utility at Adept I quaility as our Master I quaility ( for lvl 57 CA ) with a 50% chance to proc, and yes both can have them resisted, but a Guardian can proc it alot more often to make up for the loss in resists, where the damage component from our 20% chance to proc does not make up for resists.</P> <P>ALso please keep in mind that STR only effects the damage component, not the Threat portion, only quaility effects the threat portion of these CA's.</P> <P>Look at Paladins Amend ability, it does not have a chance to be resisted, its a constant flow of pure Hate, and it doesnt ever stop and the more the player can generate with this CA enabled, the better for the Paladin.</P> <P>Take a look on the other side of the scale at how well a Bruiser can maintain and control agro just by his strong DPS and stuns. Keep in mind this is also subject to level differences in the same way that resists effect us with Taunts, but they have alot of DPS to make up for any loss in stuns / taunts where we do not match there DPS like we used too anymore making it alot harder to maintain and control agro.</P> <P>Im not saying it is a impossible task to maintain and control agro, im merely suggesting that it doesnt have to be so hard and on the edge of losing the agro to another player with in the group, the dual weild upgrade was a big enough upgrade to cause some little issues for me when Scouts are going at it from behind a mob, one resist and there basically on my door step ready to take the Number 1 postion with agro, then i get a nice little string of taunts in there with no resists to top it up again, where a Paladin wouldnt have this problem due to having that constant stream of Hate coming from the Scout, or a Brawler being able to somewhat match the Scouts DPS in the sense that if he did fail a taunt or two he didnt risk losing agro or a Guardian with his 50% chance to proc a much stronger Taunt when getting hit.</P> <P>Thank you for reading this and please lets keep this thread positive because i will say this again, im not looking for nerfs of any kind, im looking for maybe a evaluation of our Taunts that have DPS tied into them, and im not looking for suggestions for increasements to DPS with in the Taunts to balance it out because we do more then enough DPS now as it is even after LU#16. We simply need some adjustments to our Taunts themselves, the ones that do DPS + Taunt that is.</P> <P>Thanks.</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:53 PM</span>

[Bremer]

Great post, I hope Lockeye or so will read and think about it.

[Keowrath]

Very nice post. One that doesn't attack any other class calling for a nerf but a bunch of sensible suggestions that will leave us as better taunters without over powering us. I hope and prey the devs see this and take it into consideration. <div></div>

[Mjollnyr]

Firstly, Great post! In-combat health regen & current caps: I like the idea of increased in-combat health regen. I think the primary inhibiter of this would be the current in-combat regen caps.  I'm not positive of what the cap is, but i was told its around 90-120. Thats the same for Mana or Hitpoints.  Currently when a Berserker is being hit in combat and has their buffs up we're sitting at 90+ in-combat hp regen. I know that several classes already add in-combat health regen as well. So if this was to be considered an improvement for the Berserker class that cap would have to be increased. I know that most caps are being hit very easily, stats and in-combat regens, with the current buffs. Makes me think that the overall cap limits are set to low. Taunt post LU#13: The current issues with agro control i feel stem from the current balance of taunt verse damage.  I know that guardians have been bringing this issue up as if it only affects them.  I feel this is more of a fighter, or at least warrior, related issue. What is the difference at the moment between a taunt and a large high damage attack? I'm just as likely to get agro using Frenzied blows as i am using Outrage.  Why do fighters get taunts instead of high damage attacks?  So that our DPS isn't that of a rogue. Basically taunts are supplements for high damage attacks to balance the classes.  The difference with taunts are they will never kill (or damage) a target, this lends me to think that taunts should have higher agro than high damage attacks.  If a rogue is providing his mid-range dps (not spamming CA)  then a fighter class should not have to spam specials to maintain agro.  I've noticed myself always having the least power in a group because i have to spam my attacks constantly in order to maintain agro.  This doesn't really tell me there is a balance between taunts and raw damage.  This is of course all hearsay but i'd love it if the current taunt to damage ratio was re-assessed and possibly have all taunt styles values increased to bring this more in line. Taunt stance comparison: Is the taunt proc AoE? I've always been under the impretion they are single target, a riposte-like ability with taunt attached.  I may be wrong, i'll re-read the ability tonight after work. Amends and other agro reduction abilities: Paladins have Amends which is an awesome ability. Guardians have Assuage which reduces agro gain and also works like Vehemence, provides another chance to block.  Would it be possible for Berserkers to get a buff we'd place on the a groups high agro generators and this buff would reduce the amount of hate gain, like assuage, while either providing no secondary effect or a Berserker related secondary effect. These were the thoughts reading your post brought to mind, I hope i didn't go far off topic Taemek. I apoligize if i did. <div></div>

[Pin StNeedl]

<P>Some points...</P> <P>Balancing HP regen is tricky. At the moment, it's about the right level for solo and small group (1k health per minute is substantial when you aren't taking huge amounts of damage), but quite underpowered for raids. While I wish it could be increased to be more potent for raiding, it would quickly become overpowered while solo, so I don't think it could be adjusted much in this area.</P> <P>Maybe the self-regen proc buff (Blood Boil, which is quite underpowered being less potent than the group version, being single-target and not always being active) could have a secondary effect added, such as an increase to max health pool (say by 3-5%) when triggered. This would barely effect solo-play as the extra health would not be used without a heal, but would give the spell line some use while fighting heavier (raid) encounters.</P> <P> </P> <P>Aggro control discussions... First thing is Taunting Defense (Berserker) and Inflaming Defense (Guardian) are single-target threat increases (not encounter) upon proc, and yes it is very unbalanced that one procs at 50% when the other procs at 20% for similar amounts of hate gain. I don't believe the proc chance should be increased much, as this would likely raise our DPS while tanking a little too much. However, the value of the attached taunt could be doubled instead.</P> <P>Secondly, the primary reason taunts are resisted is because the mob has high mental resist, not because of level. Enemies which resist a large number of taunts due to level difference (orange/red con) are not supposed to be simple fights in terms of damage output, damage taken, or aggro control.</P> <P>The point on requiring to be taking damage in order to proc the taunt... Well, if you aren't being hit at all, and cannot hold aggro, then switch to offensive stance and cure both problems. The encounters where the defensive stance is required will be hitting you enough to proc the effect anyway, but I would like the effect to be stronger in these cases.</P>

[Mjollnyr]

<span><blockquote><hr>Pin StNeedles wrote:<p>The point on requiring to be taking damage in order to proc the taunt... Well, if you aren't being hit at all, and cannot hold aggro, then switch to offensive stance and cure both problems. The encounters where the defensive stance is required will be hitting you enough to proc the effect anyway, but I would like the effect to be stronger in these cases.</p><hr></blockquote>This reminded me of another point i forgot to bring up: Wards dont allow defensive procs to trigger.  Not sure if this is our problem or a shaman, but either way this counts towards the effectiviness of taunt stances.</span><div></div>

[Kaberu]

My only concern with the group HP regen buff is that it implies the rest of the group is going to be hit. Does that say something about our aggro abilities? I hope not. <div></div>

[Fazzarya]

<DIV>The idea with the hp regen is fantastic and something I have fantasized about a few times mid-combat.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the taunt issue, why the hell are taunts resistable? They aren't spells, they are combat arts! Does the mob not hear me when I scream obscenities at it? Aggro control would not be an issue, or not as much of one, if all our taunts were guaranteed to land. The only randomness of it should be how much hate that particular taunt generated. Mobs resisting taunts makes no sense in the mechanics of Norrath. Taunts also should have the power requirements reduced. It should take us little energy to keep a mob mad at us, doing the high damage CA's is where we should be losing power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Excellent post Taemek</DIV>

[kille]

<DIV>Kab, it comes in handy sometimes when you're taking on some heavy AOE's. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by killerc on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:37 PM</span>

[Danan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kaberu wrote:<BR>My only concern with the group HP regen buff is that it implies the rest of the group is going to be hit. Does that say something about our aggro abilities? I hope not.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Just like you have AE attacks so doe the mobs we fight, now instead of the healers healing them, you do, this adds more hate to you.

[Kaberu]

Generally, AOE damage is low on most of the group. Usually it's just barrages in the front of the mob or low damage AOE spells... named mobs and raid level stuff AOEs the crap out of you, but in regular grinds? <div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pin StNeedles wrote:<BR> <P>Some points...</P> <P>Balancing HP regen is tricky. At the moment, it's about the right level for solo and small group (1k health per minute is substantial when you aren't taking huge amounts of damage), but quite underpowered for raids. While I wish it could be increased to be more potent for raiding, it would quickly become overpowered while solo, so I don't think it could be adjusted much in this area.</P> <P>Maybe the self-regen proc buff (Blood Boil, which is quite underpowered being less potent than the group version, being single-target and not always being active) could have a secondary effect added, such as an increase to max health pool (say by 3-5%) when triggered. This would barely effect solo-play as the extra health would not be used without a heal, but would give the spell line some use while fighting heavier (raid) encounters.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Thats why if you were in a group, a mob isnt going to take less then 30 seconds to kill it. The solo mobs i fight dont take anywhere near 1 min to kill, majority of then last less then 30 seconds, but im lucky to go Berserk maybe once or twice during the fight because it goes so quickly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In Groups or Raids, the idea of having the Berserk increase the amount of HP regen i think is a decent suggestion seeing that these fights go for sometimes over 1 - 2 mins in a group and raid fights go for upto over 10 mins, sometimes into 15 mins giving us much more Berserks over that period of time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now like i said before, lets say for example my Destructive Rage is Adept III, Base HP regen at Adept III would still equal 55 HP regen per tick, but as you berserk more and more during a fight it increases the amount of Group HP regen you give to the group with say for example a total of 5 procs for a total value of 85 HP regen per tick while in combat mode, when combat subsides, it goes back to 55 HP regen per tick at Adept III quaility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe even just change it so when we are in Berserk mode that the amount of HP regen we get per tick increases and the amount it increases depends on quaility for example, Base hp regen on Adept III Destructive Rage = 55 HP per tick, when in Berserk mode it bumps upto 85 HP per tick but when not in Berserk mode it falls down to 55 HP regen again. But i like the idea of it increasing as we Berserk more often for the simple fact that it fits the Berserkers lore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im not looking at our self buff Blood Boil because its high enough as it is for a self only buff and besides im looking for something utility wise to add to a group or raid, not something that will just help us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pin StNeedles wrote:<BR> <P>Aggro control discussions... First thing is Taunting Defense (Berserker) and Inflaming Defense (Guardian) are single-target threat increases (not encounter) upon proc, and yes it is very unbalanced that one procs at 50% when the other procs at 20% for similar amounts of hate gain. I don't believe the proc chance should be increased much, as this would likely raise our DPS while tanking a little too much. However, the value of the attached taunt could be doubled instead.</P> <P>Secondly, the primary reason taunts are resisted is because the mob has high mental resist, not because of level. Enemies which resist a large number of taunts due to level difference (orange/red con) are not supposed to be simple fights in terms of damage output, damage taken, or aggro control.</P> <P>The point on requiring to be taking damage in order to proc the taunt... Well, if you aren't being hit at all, and cannot hold aggro, then switch to offensive stance and cure both problems. The encounters where the defensive stance is required will be hitting you enough to proc the effect anyway, but I would like the effect to be stronger in these cases.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>There not exactally similar amounts of Hate gain, our Master I is the same as Guardians Adept I at lvl 57. A Guardians at Master I ability is almost double the amount of ours and still at a 50% chance to proc the ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at the difference from Offending Defense Master I to Master II quaility, we get a extra 8 Threat increasement and like 10 damage max for the upgrade. The same works for Taunting Defense, the upgrades are minimal at best and the fact that there only a 20% to proc it to begin with and the damage component of the CA does not balance out the CA to a Guardians line for sheer amount of times they can proc the ability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taunts being resisted doesnt just happen on Orange or Red con mobs and im not even refering to these mobs with in the post, i should of clarified a little bit more, im talking about the random resists that you get fighting Blue, White and Yellow cons mobs on a constant basis which leads to us having a number of classes on our door steps ready to kick the door in on the next Assinate ot Ice Comet, where other classes like a Paladin for example do not have this probelm from unresisted flow of hate from Amends or a Bruiser with his strong DPS to somewhat match their DPS and a Guardians ability to have a 50% chance to proc double the amount of hate we can with a 30% more chance of it procing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The damage component does not balance out the Defense line for the simple fact that Taunt component of the CA is too weak and needs to be slightly adjusted. Also yes its a single target skill but can proc on any mob within the encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didnt suggest that the proc chances be increased and i said at the bottom of the post i didnt want suggestions for increasments to Damage with in the arts to balance the CA out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im suggesting that because its only a 20% chance to proc and we have taunts resisting alot reguardless of Mob lvl, CA quaility and then add to this fact that the amount we can Dodge, Block, Parry and Riposte it makes it even harder for the CA to proc to begin with and when it does proc the damage component does not help us control agro because of taunts being resisted, damage not being high enough to make any difference, mobs dodging, parring, blocking and riposting the damage and finally, upgrades to the CA via quaility upgrades is minimal at best and hardly even a upgrade.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like i suggested in the OP, id like to suggest out Taunts get evaluated because we do enough damage as it is, but taunts like our Defense line seem a little low compaired to the amount we used to proc to hold agro, Berserk agro generation was reduced with LU#13, Anarchy / Chaos line also had there hate generation lowered, Frenzy and Frenzied Blows have a high chance to miss one succesful hit making it a non viable tool to control agro or flat our be resisted, Vanquish and Slay both have the chance to be completely resisted making it a non viable tool also to use to control agro also.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ethier two things can be done :</DIV> <OL> <LI>They lower the mental resists on mobs so taunts dont resist so much, and no this wont change a thing on Orange / Red con mobs because they can give Orange or Red con mobs a iniate increasement just like they do now in the form of Avoidance, Atk rating and Damage output when fighting Orange / Red con mobs, so wouldnt be changing a thing on Orange / Red cons but they would be making taunts resist alot less often on mobs that are Blue, White and Yellow con mobs, because we still do resist a hell of alot on these mobs, even mobs that are one level higher then you you will resist alot, ever green mobs you still resist alot and this should not be happening.</LI> <LI>They increase the amount of certain Taunt CA's that dont have a very high Threat generation in there to balance out the way we hold agro as a Berserker because i never use a sheild unless im fighting a high lvl named mob or tanking for a raid, so my chances at being hit to proc the 20% chance are good, but because i have high AGI in a group my Avoidance without a shield is around 45 - 47% making my chances to Parry, Dodge very high and i get missed quite alot making it very hard to proc the CA especially with only a 20% chance and low damage and low threat utility.</LI></OL> <P>Seing as our Defense line is only a 20% chance to proc, maybe we can get the Threat increased to just below a Guardians line seeing that theres is a 50% chance with almost double the amount of hate, where the small amount of damage when the damage and taunt get through on our CA dont balance this out.</P> <P>Thanks.</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>11-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:29 PM</span>

[Poochymama]

I agree. I think think they should atleast bump our aggro up to be on par with guardians.

[Mjollnyr]

<span>Great response.</span> <span><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<div></div>  <div>Ethier two things can be done :</div> <ol> <li>They lower the mental resists on mobs so taunts dont resist so much, and no this wont change a thing on Orange / Red con mobs because they can give Orange or Red con mobs a iniate increasement just like they do now in the form of Avoidance, Atk rating and Damage output when fighting Orange / Red con mobs, so wouldnt be changing a thing on Orange / Red cons but they would be making taunts resist alot less often on mobs that are Blue, White and Yellow con mobs, because we still do resist a hell of alot on these mobs, even mobs that are one level higher then you you will resist alot, ever green mobs you still resist alot and this should not be happening.</li> </ol><span class="time_text"></span> <hr></blockquote> My suggestion would be have taunts based off an entirely different, and unique resist line. In the combat changes they state that taunt can now be resisted, but at a reduced rate.  Something like the 'lure' lines from EQlive is what came to my mind.  When i first read this, i thought it would be a great idea, and shouldn't unbalancing. When in-game and having taunts resisted as often as standard caster classes, the situation seemed to not be working quite as intended. If they reduced mental resistances on mobs, this would potentially over power classes that deal in mental damage.  By changing taunts to a seperate resist line, they could properly balance taunt resists without making the mobs vulnerable to another class(es). </span><div></div>