Why the need to lower our Unbridled Fury, AOE Abilties, and Proc rate,.

[Zhonata]

<DIV>What was so terriable wrong with our Unbridle fury aoe abilties, and proc rate. We are supose to have multiple enemy encounters undercontrol. Our offense, AOE damage, and proc rate is the only reason why we hold aggro. Why have you messed with an other wised balanced class. While i dont know exactly how these changes are going to effect us (Mostly because i dotn want to spednd 2 months non stop lvl a beserker on test to get on to my lvl). I can look at them and be very disappointed cause i have an idea of what they will do. They will definantly kill our DPS. YOu lowered how many target we can effect and how much damage we do. This is aour primary means of aggro control. THen you lowered our proc rate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please SOE why.. why...why...why...why..why..why..... have you messed with an otherwise very balanced class. We could do our job. Not even that much better than other tanks. </DIV>

[Cro]

<P>OK, this is a horrible change. Every day when update notes come out, I check for Berserker related items. I can deal with the fact that we never have CA's, skills or other issues taken care of, but the only true Berserker spell-skill to get updated in months is a nerf? </P> <P> </P> <P>W T F</P> <P> </P> <P>I play with some RL friends and family, and even before this patch, they can all solo better then I can.</P> <P> </P> <P>For example... the named king goblin in PoF.</P> <P> </P> <P>My Ranger brother can solo that encounter with ease, same with my Wiz and Warlock friends, My enchanter friend, even my (tank) Monk brother can solo the encounter. I am the only one who can not seem to solo that. I know that that encounter doesnt mean squat, it's just one example. That is an encounter that berserkers should excell at (5 mobs).</P> <P>We don't need an upgrade really (would be nice), but we sure as heck do not need a "nerf".</P> <P>I loved EQ1... it was such a good game (I know if I loved it so much then I should go back cause this is EQ2... blah blah blah).</P> <P>They need to stop the nerfs, address player issues, do some half way decent graphic changes and add more defining ones, itemize the zones propperly, figure out that some stuff shouldn't be pushed live untill fixxed, and return to how they were when they started the game. I remember people actually commenting about the way the GM's n EQ2 rocked, and how the devs actually listened to players input.</P> <P>/rant off</P> <P>BTW feel free to flame me, I have alot of down time at work on Sunday, so will give me some thing to read >;O)</P>

[Pin StNeedl]

<DIV>This is a parse from a couple of hours tonight (2 groups killing lots of AoE encounters, mostly 59-61 x2/x4). I was tanking using 2H (cobalt executioner's axe) and offensive stance virtually the whole time and averaged 790 dps. Table just shows the total damage done by each spell, spells marked with a * are damage buffs by other raid members.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Art/Spell                Total</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>slash                  1020361</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Furious Assault         374080</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Rampaging Blow          284433</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Stunning Howl           113587</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><EM>Thornstorm              109881 *</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><EM>Deadly Invective         96503 *</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Gleaming Strike          81612</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Amputate                 75591</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Counterattack            73663</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face="Courier New"><EM>Flameshield              70508 *</EM></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face="Courier New">Frenzied Blows           66138</FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face="Courier New">Breach                   65512</FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2><FONT face="Courier New">Unyielding Battering     54978</FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Wallop                   50319</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Slaughter                47918</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Berserker Rush           35689</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Provoking Counterattack  34549</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><EM>Blade Chime              34352 *</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Slay                     32124</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Sanguine Feedback        25939</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Brutal Pledge            25016</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Ruthless Strike          24529</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><EM>Linked Pain              13432 *</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New" size=2>Gnoll Master's Strike    10665</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><FONT size=2><EM>Fae Fires                 6799 *</EM></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, the proc from Unbridled Fury contributed 15% of total damage (discounting damage buffs from others). Far more than any other combat art, or spell. Make of that what you will.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Notes:</DIV> <DIV>Capped strength, 100% dps and 100% haste buffs, all spells Master or Adept III (Unbridled Fury is Master I).</DIV>

[Zhonata]

Can you possibly explain this post and its point it just seem like you through a whole bunch of number out there for interpretation. From me looking at it i see that i was right they nerfed or strongest abilty and as i fear it will more than likly nerf our aggro control...

[Pin StNeedl]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> Can you possibly explain this post and its point it just seem like you through a whole bunch of number out there for interpretation. From me looking at it i see that i was right they nerfed or strongest abilty and as i fear it will more than likly nerf our aggro control...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Just providing some data on what skills give what output. Everyone on the board can interpret it however they like. Cry about a nerf if you like (you already were, and you would continue to, no matter what anyone posted).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My personal opinion is that I won't particularly care about the reduction, and I know I won't be having dps or aggro problems as a result.</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Pin StNeedles on <span class=date_text>11-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:31 AM</span>

[Zhonata]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pin StNeedles wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> Can you possibly explain this post and its point it just seem like you through a whole bunch of number out there for interpretation. From me looking at it i see that i was right they nerfed or strongest abilty and as i fear it will more than likly nerf our aggro control...<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Just providing some data on what skills give what output. Everyone on the board can interpret it however they like. Cry about a nerf if you like (you already were, and you would continue to, no matter what anyone posted).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>AS you plainly stated furious assailt makes up 15% of our total damage. They just reduced the number of targets it effect and its proc indivudal damage. SO u will be losing 300-600 damge per proc hit minus the damage reduction this is about +6% total damage thrown out the window. ( assuming you hitting the max number of targets 5). Not to mention we lose the aggro from the procs. My main concern is whether or not this is goign effect our abilty to hold aggro in a big way. Their is a big diffrence between crying nerf and making an educated guess. I actually thought about it before posting about it instead of just reading hte psot and whining about it. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My personal opinion is that I won't particularly care about the reduction, and I know I won't be having dps or aggro problems as a result.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>I hope you are right for all our sakes.</FONT></DIV></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Pin StNeedles on <SPAN class=date_text>11-06-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:31 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[Cro]

<DIV>"Cry about a nerf if you like (you already were, and you would continue to, no matter what anyone posted)."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hey Pin, why when some of us have an issue with them taking a damaging spell thats great, and they seem to take off some of the harsh edges on it.... hence NERF'ing it....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remember when you were younger and you used to throw a football around in your house, and without fail you would break things.... maybe a hole in the wall, maybe a lamp..... then this awsome company came out with these soft balls and footballs...... altho it was still possible to do damage stuff in the house, most of the danger was removed because the balls were made soft.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why do you say we "Cry" about it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is it supposed to be a little personal attack .. a little cheap shot... a little some thing thats isn't out right rude but still makes you feel better about yourself for some reason?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your post was great until you added that third sentence..... There was no real reason for it...... Zhonata wasn't trying to say anything that was going to effect you in a negative way.... We are all people who play Berserkers...... we should act like a comunity, not people just reading these boards waiting to start a fight with eachother.</DIV>

[Hor]

<DIV>So assuming it is 15% of our totasl damage....and it just got hit for 40% ( 2/5) plus an unknown " slight" reduction in overall damage, we're losing something over 6% of or total damage output ((40% of 15%)+the unknown percent) because of one spell?  *my math may be a bit fuzzy, been a while, but I think thats right*  to me this seems like a fairly major reduction, considering the other 2 top tank dps classes( monks and bruisers) got no reduction at all.  maybe it won't be as bad as it seems, but from the raw numbers it looks grim.  of course if the max number for open wounds does increase by 3, maybe we can all be happy when we reach 57, til then??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Styk]

<DIV>If they are going to reduce our damage output by that much ( which means agro ability will be lessened ) when will they scale down the effectiveness of the paladin agro sieve lines ? ( amends and their group agro sieve is the reason why paladins are tanking for us now in raids ) Also when are they gonna take a look at the paladin AE taunt ( hmmm threat + debuff is more powerful then str8 threat ) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep it fair SoE, since you feel that we are "too powerful" spread your nerf love accross the board then </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pin StNeedles wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Courier New"><FONT size=2><EM></EM></FONT></FONT></DIV></DIV> <DIV>So, the proc from Unbridled Fury contributed 15% of total damage (discounting damage buffs from others). Far more than any other combat art, or spell. Make of that what you will.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Notes:</DIV> <DIV>Capped strength, 100% dps and 100% haste buffs, all spells Master or Adept III (Unbridled Fury is Master I).</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>And so it should add 15% to your total damage in Offensive Stance. hence is why its called Offensive stance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For me this wont effect me because i rarely use the skill and Pin once again shows us how over powered 2 hand proc ratios really are, do the same parse using dual weild and i bet its half that amount reguardless of if your tanking or not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what does SoE do, instead of adjusting the 2 hand proc ratios they just nerf the skill, 3 targets max.........:smileyindifferent:, you will be lucky if this skill even adds to 3% of your total DPS after the nerf, and it will be yet another totally useless skill in your knowledge books.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So much for a Offensive Stance.</DIV></DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>Why do you people bring us into your mess. You dont see Paladins complaining about your DPS or to nerf you. Your DPS is a ton better than ours and you people are now crying about Paladins? Tanks with lower DPS are supposed to have better aggro skills to make up for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whats up with this? since when do people call for nerfs on other classes, Styker? have some class, man. Instead of trying to nerf us, why dont you work on getting your class improved.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is sad. Paladins have had the absolute worst aggro since the game came out. You people have <EM><STRONG><U>NEVER</U></STRONG></EM> had aggro problems like we've had...and you still hold aggro just fine.<EM><STRONG> </STRONG></EM>So [Removed for Content] what if our AE taunt debuffs divine? it does absolutely nothing for us. Doesnt increase our DPS, doesnt make our nukes stronger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please stop calling for nerfs to other classes, specially classes like Crusaders, who just RECENTLY became able to hold aggro like Berserkers have had since the game came out. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tell you what..when they give us DPS like you guys, Ill be the first to call for the mana sieve to be toned down. </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:43 AM</span>

[plantb]

<DIV>I dont see anything wrong with Zekers atm.  My brother is lvl 56 and with a Coblat Imbued Executioners Axe he does Insane amounts of dmge.  He went for Rampage Master 2, and the rest of his spells are Adept 3, self buffed his Str is almost 400 (think its 390).  I have a very very hard time keeping aggro off him when he lets loose.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When we grp (oh I'm an SK btw) I would stick despoiling mist on the mob (AC Debuff 1050) taunt a crap load, then let him go wild on the dmge.  One of his CAs does like 520dmge, however with Dispoiling mist it does 720+dmge and if he hits rampage I loose aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the changes in Lu16 i'm not sure how this affects you, however my brother doesnt seem concerned but then again he is lvl56 so some changes may not apply.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway I like grping with Zerkers as we complement eachother.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please dont take this as a flame.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plant</DIV>

[Zhonata]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <DIV>Why do you people bring us into your mess. You dont see Paladins complaining about your DPS or to nerf you. Your DPS is a ton better than ours and you people are now crying about Paladins? Tanks with lower DPS are supposed to have better aggro skills to make up for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whats up with this? since when do people call for nerfs on other classes, Styker? have some class, man. Instead of trying to nerf us, why dont you work on getting your class improved.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is sad. Paladins have had the absolute worst aggro since the game came out. You people have <EM><STRONG><U>NEVER</U></STRONG></EM> had aggro problems like we've had...and you still hold aggro just fine.<EM><STRONG> </STRONG></EM>So [Removed for Content] what if our AE taunt debuffs divine? it does absolutely nothing for us. Doesnt increase our DPS, doesnt make our nukes stronger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please stop calling for nerfs to other classes, specially classes like Crusaders, who just RECENTLY became able to hold aggro like Berserkers have had since the game came out. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tell you what..when they give us DPS like you guys, Ill be the first to call for the mana sieve to be toned down. </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:43 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>/sigh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please read the entire post before you respond. The point was that they are lowering our offensive capabilties and our procs rates ( I.E. our aggro control) By a very substantial number. Since our abilty to hold aggro depends on the damage we do and how often our procs fire this is going to efect us in a big way. The poster was simply saying if they are going to nerf our aggro control they need to adress some other classes as well. As of right now i think beserkers are jsut fine we hold aggro we do our share of damage and we can tank. WE can have every person in the world come in here and complain about something or another, but in end it is the people who play the class that get the shaft. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Them nerfing our offense and procs rates is the equvilent of them nerfing your ameds thus his point is made. If you can truly grasp that concept then maybe you will understand some of the frustration we have.<BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by Zhonata on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:46 AM</span>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV> <DIV><U>"If they are going to reduce our damage output by that much ( which means agro ability will be lessened ) when will they scale down the effectiveness of the paladin agro sieve lines ? ( amends and their group agro sieve is the reason why paladins are tanking for us now in raids ) Also when are they gonna take a look at the paladin AE taunt ( hmmm threat + debuff is more powerful then str8 threat ) </U></DIV> <DIV><U></U> </DIV> <DIV><U>Keep it fair SoE, since you feel that we are "too powerful" spread your nerf love accross the board then "</U></DIV> <DIV><U></U> </DIV> <DIV><U></U> </DIV> <DIV>This is what Styker wrote. He's calling for nerfs to us. This is his entire post. Nowhere does he argue to improve his Berserker, he just calls for nerfs on us. Now, I'd like to see a post in the Paladin forums where we call for a nerf to Berserker damage or Berserker taunts. I've never heard of a Paladin stealing a Berserkers aggro. Even with your damage nerfed..not by PALADINS, but by SoE, you STILL out DPS by a quite a bit. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How about waiting for this to hit live before you call for nerfs on us. If it's that bad of a change, and it does hurt your aggro skills, then argue to increase your taunts or to improve your aggro somewhere. Dont drag another class down who had absolutely nothing to do with this. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can understand frustration, but calling for a nerf to another class is NOT the way to improve yours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:00 PM</span>

[Styk]

<P>Dont get me started on your superior AE taunt ( lets see threat increase + debuff vs a threat increase no debuff ? that should answer it ) , your Agro sieve abilites  (put amends on a zerker and  both of you start taunting a mob.... wait i forgot at adept 3 amends is a 40% agro sieve so your still receving 40% of my agro from my taunts ) Lets see your 52 group agro sieve ability isnt being touched while our 52 PBae taunt is being limited to 8 targets max....</P> <P>There is a reason why our guild uses paladins ALOT now to tank in raids... you know why? Amends is a powerful tool ... put a warlock in your group and put amends on him.. ive seen it done the pally will hold agro where the berserker in that same group tanking will lose it ) </P> <P>Yes your agro sieve lines need to be looked at and yes your AE taunt needs its debuffed removed... Hmm would you also like to compare your shield bash+ taunt vs our dd atk+ taunt both at either adept 1 or 3 ? </P> <P>The "dps" you say berserkers can do better then paladins was the major factor in us being able to put out agro like yall but now that we are receving a dps reduction where does that put the zerker over a paladin now ? </P> <P>Of course paladins aren't gonna ask for a zerker nerf on your boards, you want to keep your agro ability hush hush so people dont catch on but guess what !? People are catching on...</P> <P>Oh and the kicker is this... LU 16 Doom Judgement ( paladin/shadowknight AE ) is getting its 2% dps debuff changed , now besides damage it debuffs arcane and noxious benefical spells on targets that land to it ( debuff = big agro generation.. woohoo talk about kickin zerkers in the nutts&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P>I will say it again SoE if you are gonna reduce our tank effectiveness then the nerf bat needs to be swung at other tank classes as well </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Styker on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:48 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Styker on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:48 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Styker on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:50 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Styker on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:51 PM</span>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>First off..amends has never been a secret, not have we ever tried to keep it secret..Paladins, Wizards, Warlocks, ETC, have been talking about it on the open forums for months. Your conspiracy theories are great morning comedy. Secret? heh.</P> <P>As for taunts..yes..Id love to compare taunts..tell you what..ill link mine and you link yours..then we'll do a spell for spell DPS comparison, plus a spell by spell debuff comparison, and a self / grp buffs comparison too.</P> <P>Lets see how many debuffs Berserkers have vs Paladins. We'll also see how much more DPS you have than Paladins..then well see how our taunts compare to yours. I'd love to see it.  Aggro is maintained by DPS as much as taunts. You have more DPS than us, and more debuffs than us.</P> <P>Stop complaining about us, and try to fix your class. Theres a grp of us who have been doing it with our class with success since January. I suggest you do the same. </P> <P>Without having to resort to calling for other classes to be nerfed. </P> <P><U>"your Agro sieve abilites  (put amends on a zerker and  both of you start taunting a mob.... wait i forgot at adept 3 amends is a 40% agro sieve so your still receving 40% of my agro from my taunts ) Lets see your 52 group agro sieve ability isnt being touched while our 52 PBae taunt is being limited to 8 targets max...."</U></P> <P>Now, guess what..our AE's got nerfed too..ours ALSO hit 8 mobs only..only they do <STRONG><EM><U>LESS</U></EM></STRONG> damage than yours. Thats not rocket science, but you didnt mention that did you. </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:06 AM</span>

[Stromul]

Man it's so sad what SOE just does to this class.  Nerf Nerf Nerf! I'm so digusted with them. <div></div>

[Sasaki Koji]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR> <P>Dont get me started on your superior AE taunt ( lets see threat increase + debuff vs a threat increase no debuff ? that should answer it ) , your Agro sieve abilites  (put amends on a zerker and  both of you start taunting a mob.... wait i forgot at adept 3 amends is a 40% agro sieve so your still receving 40% of my agro from my taunts ) Lets see your 52 group agro sieve ability isnt being touched while our 52 PBae taunt is being limited to 8 targets max....</P> <P>There is a reason why our guild uses paladins ALOT now to tank in raids... you know why? Amends is a powerful tool ... put a warlock in your group and put amends on him.. ive seen it done the pally will hold agro where the berserker in that same group tanking will lose it ) </P> <P>Yes your agro sieve lines need to be looked at and yes your AE taunt needs its debuffed removed... Hmm would you also like to compare your shield bash+ taunt vs our dd atk+ taunt both at either adept 1 or 3 ? </P> <P>The "dps" you say berserkers can do better then paladins was the major factor in us being able to put out agro like yall but now that we are receving a dps reduction where does that put the zerker over a paladin now ? </P> <P>Of course paladins aren't gonna ask for a zerker nerf on your boards, you want to keep your agro ability hush hush so people dont catch on but guess what !? People are catching on...</P> <P>Oh and the kicker is this... LU 16 Doom Judgement ( paladin/shadowknight AE ) is getting its 2% dps debuff changed , now besides damage it debuffs arcane and noxious benefical spells on targets that land to it ( debuff = big agro generation.. woohoo talk about kickin zerkers in the nutts&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P>I will say it again SoE if you are gonna reduce our tank effectiveness then the nerf bat needs to be swung at other tank classes as well </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Styker on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:48 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Styker on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:48 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Styker on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:50 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Styker on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:51 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>paladins dont get a buff that gives them hate whenever theyre hit like guards, zerkers, and shadowknights do, so mabey that should be taken away from us. Paladins also dont get any buffs for thier own mitigation like zerkers and guardians do. And the ae taunt is not ae, its encounter, so it doesnt hit multiple encounters like guardians guarding assault. Oh, and paladins dont get 2 group hp regens and an 81str group buff, nor a 76agi buff from thier target avoidance buff. Oh you also have more avoidance that crusaders while defensive. so... stop your complaining.</P>

[Cro]

<DIV>"paladins dont get a buff that gives them hate whenever theyre hit like guards, zerkers, and shadowknights do, so mabey that should be taken away from us."</DIV> <DIV>Berserkers don't have any spell that gives them hate when ever they get hit.... I can be tanking 10 mobs, and that spell goes off maybe once every 20+ hits.... and it only effects the one mob it hits....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> "Paladins also dont get any buffs for thier own mitigation like zerkers and guardians do."</DIV> <DIV>I M H O  the mit buffs that a berserker gets don't even get us close to what we lose having to be offencive stance for agro...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> "And the ae taunt is not ae, its encounter, so it doesnt hit multiple encounters like guardians guarding assault. "</DIV> <DIV>Paladin taunt steals agro from the person they cast it on, so it can hit out of encounter depending on who they cast it on....</DIV> <DIV>Also the Berserker AE mostly causes more damage then it helps... from what I have seen any way.... INC 10 adds, oops!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Oh, and paladins dont get 2 group hp regens and an 81str group buff, nor a 76agi buff from thier target avoidance buff."</DIV> <DIV>Trade ya our buffs for heals....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> "Oh you also have more avoidance that crusaders while defensive. so... stop your complaining."</DIV> <DIV>If I go defencive I WILL LOSE AGRO... my agro depends on my own dps....</DIV><p>Message Edited by Croff on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:01 AM</span>

[Yrield]

<span><blockquote><hr>Styker wrote:<div>If they are going to reduce our damage output by that much ( which means agro ability will be lessened ) when will they scale down the effectiveness of the paladin agro sieve lines ? ( amends and their group agro sieve is the reason why paladins are tanking for us now in raids ) Also when are they gonna take a look at the paladin AE taunt ( hmmm threat + debuff is more powerful then str8 threat ) </div> <div> </div> <div>Keep it fair SoE, since you feel that we are "too powerful" spread your nerf love accross the board then </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Since EQ2 seem to be a little hard to understand for you, I will explain it Zerker, SKs, Bruiser, Monk all trade raws agro for raws dps. Paladin and guardian trade raws dps for raws agro. easy eh ? Raws dps rating: Bruiser/monk > zerker/Sks > Guard/Paladin Raws agro rating: Guard/paladin > zerker/sks > Bruiser/Monk The days of the Redemption line nerf will be the same day where Paladin become an <i>OFFENSIVE</i> tank and start to dps more than a zerker, that what you want Stryker ? And btw, stop taunting and stop trying to peel the MT when you are not tanking, maybe your guild will use you to tank if you stop playing like an idiot...</span><div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sasaki Kojiro wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR> <P>Dont get me started on your superior AE taunt ( lets see threat increase + debuff vs a threat increase no debuff ? that should answer it ) , your Agro sieve abilites  (put amends on a zerker and  both of you start taunting a mob.... wait i forgot at adept 3 amends is a 40% agro sieve so your still receving 40% of my agro from my taunts ) Lets see your 52 group agro sieve ability isnt being touched while our 52 PBae taunt is being limited to 8 targets max....</P> <P>There is a reason why our guild uses paladins ALOT now to tank in raids... you know why? Amends is a powerful tool ... put a warlock in your group and put amends on him.. ive seen it done the pally will hold agro where the berserker in that same group tanking will lose it ) </P> <P>Yes your agro sieve lines need to be looked at and yes your AE taunt needs its debuffed removed... Hmm would you also like to compare your shield bash+ taunt vs our dd atk+ taunt both at either adept 1 or 3 ? </P> <P>The "dps" you say berserkers can do better then paladins was the major factor in us being able to put out agro like yall but now that we are receving a dps reduction where does that put the zerker over a paladin now ? </P> <P>Of course paladins aren't gonna ask for a zerker nerf on your boards, you want to keep your agro ability hush hush so people dont catch on but guess what !? People are catching on...</P> <P>Oh and the kicker is this... LU 16 Doom Judgement ( paladin/shadowknight AE ) is getting its 2% dps debuff changed , now besides damage it debuffs arcane and noxious benefical spells on targets that land to it ( debuff = big agro generation.. woohoo talk about kickin zerkers in the nutts&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P>I will say it again SoE if you are gonna reduce our tank effectiveness then the nerf bat needs to be swung at other tank classes as well </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Styker on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:48 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Styker on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:48 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Styker on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:50 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Styker on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:51 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>paladins dont get a buff that gives them hate whenever theyre hit like guards, zerkers, and shadowknights do, so mabey that should be taken away from us. Paladins also dont get any buffs for thier own mitigation like zerkers and guardians do. And the ae taunt is not ae, its encounter, so it doesnt hit multiple encounters like guardians guarding assault. Oh, and paladins dont get 2 group hp regens and an 81str group buff, nor a 76agi buff from thier target avoidance buff. Oh you also have more avoidance that crusaders while defensive. so... stop your complaining.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Sasa, your totally cluless, thats all i have to say.</P> <P>Paladin agro control is far superiour then any other tank class in the game, if you want to see some real agro control, stick a Bruiser and a Paladin in the same group, you have no idea how much agro that Paladin will generate.</P> <P>Tell me this Sasa, seeing as we need to be hit to proc our encounter only AoE taunt, what use is avoidance, really? Why would we risk getting missed when we need to get hit to proc the taunt and to top it off its only a 20% chance it will proc and the proc is less then our Tier 3 taunt.........so is avoidance a good idea when our taunt effect is so low to beging with plus we have such a low chance to proc it compaired to a Guardian who has a 50% chance to proc his?</P> <P>HP regen of like somewhere between 80 - 100 per tick ( depending on quaility, and the one that effects the group is like 60 odd hp regen, then we have one self one&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> on a raid is meaningless, not even worth mentioning especually when you have mobs casting AoE's for 7k+ now in DoF. HP regen even in groups 50+ is worthless, unless your fighting green con mobs.............:smileyindifferent:</P> <P>Paladins / Guardians hands down beat Zerkers in a Tanking role, everyone who raids or understands the classes know this, the point is that Paladin are far over powered when it comes to agro generation and the compensation in DPS doesnt weigh out sorry to say.</P> <P>Here is a interesting one for you Sasa, put amends on a tank class, any will do now what happens when your trying to peel off agro when the Paladin has his amends on you and you hit Rescue, opps 40% of it goes directly to the Paladin not to mention how much has already gone to him from your mountain of DPS......................:smileyindifferent:</P>

[Sasaki Koji]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sasaki Kojiro wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR> <P>Dont get me started on your superior AE taunt ( lets see threat increase + debuff vs a threat increase no debuff ? that should answer it ) , your Agro sieve abilites  (put amends on a zerker and  both of you start taunting a mob.... wait i forgot at adept 3 amends is a 40% agro sieve so your still receving 40% of my agro from my taunts ) Lets see your 52 group agro sieve ability isnt being touched while our 52 PBae taunt is being limited to 8 targets max....</P> <P>There is a reason why our guild uses paladins ALOT now to tank in raids... you know why? Amends is a powerful tool ... put a warlock in your group and put amends on him.. ive seen it done the pally will hold agro where the berserker in that same group tanking will lose it ) </P> <P>Yes your agro sieve lines need to be looked at and yes your AE taunt needs its debuffed removed... Hmm would you also like to compare your shield bash+ taunt vs our dd atk+ taunt both at either adept 1 or 3 ? </P> <P>The "dps" you say berserkers can do better then paladins was the major factor in us being able to put out agro like yall but now that we are receving a dps reduction where does that put the zerker over a paladin now ? </P> <P>Of course paladins aren't gonna ask for a zerker nerf on your boards, you want to keep your agro ability hush hush so people dont catch on but guess what !? People are catching on...</P> <P>Oh and the kicker is this... LU 16 Doom Judgement ( paladin/shadowknight AE ) is getting its 2% dps debuff changed , now besides damage it debuffs arcane and noxious benefical spells on targets that land to it ( debuff = big agro generation.. woohoo talk about kickin zerkers in the nutts&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P>I will say it again SoE if you are gonna reduce our tank effectiveness then the nerf bat needs to be swung at other tank classes as well </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Styker on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:48 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Styker on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:48 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Styker on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:50 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Styker on <SPAN class=date_text>11-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:51 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>paladins dont get a buff that gives them hate whenever theyre hit like guards, zerkers, and shadowknights do, so mabey that should be taken away from us. Paladins also dont get any buffs for thier own mitigation like zerkers and guardians do. And the ae taunt is not ae, its encounter, so it doesnt hit multiple encounters like guardians guarding assault. Oh, and paladins dont get 2 group hp regens and an 81str group buff, nor a 76agi buff from thier target avoidance buff. Oh you also have more avoidance that crusaders while defensive. so... stop your complaining.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Sasa, your totally cluless, thats all i have to say.</P> <P>Paladin agro control is far superiour then any other tank class in the game, if you want to see some real agro control, stick a Bruiser and a Paladin in the same group, you have no idea how much agro that Paladin will generate.</P> <P>Tell me this Sasa, seeing as we need to be hit to proc our encounter only AoE taunt, what use is avoidance, really? Why would we risk getting missed when we need to get hit to proc the taunt and to top it off its only a 20% chance it will proc and the proc is less then our Tier 3 taunt.........so is avoidance a good idea when our taunt effect is so low to beging with plus we have such a low chance to proc it compaired to a Guardian who has a 50% chance to proc his?</P> <P>HP regen of like somewhere between 80 - 100 per tick ( depending on quaility, and the one that effects the group is like 60 odd hp regen, then we have one self one&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> on a raid is meaningless, not even worth mentioning especually when you have mobs casting AoE's for 7k+ now in DoF. HP regen even in groups 50+ is worthless, unless your fighting green con mobs.............:smileyindifferent:</P> <P>Paladins / Guardians hands down beat Zerkers in a Tanking role, everyone who raids or understands the classes know this, the point is that Paladin are far over powered when it comes to agro generation and the compensation in DPS doesnt weigh out sorry to say.</P> <P>Here is a interesting one for you Sasa, put amends on a tank class, any will do now what happens when your trying to peel off agro when the Paladin has his amends on you and you hit Rescue, opps 40% of it goes directly to the Paladin not to mention how much has already gone to him from your mountain of DPS......................:smileyindifferent:</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>better one, just dont try to peel agro off of him O.O. alls i can say is, a paladin puts amends on me when im trying to tank, im canceling that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Agro controll takes cooperation from the group for anyone. remove uncooperative paladins from your equasion and your good to go. I was grouped with a paladin before LU16 update started, and he didnt take agro from me once, since hes one of those cooperative paladins im talking about. can they take agro from you, yeah. should they when they know they aint spost to, no. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw, im a SK and i dont really care what kind of agro control paladin has. I know myself if things are done right, i have no problem holding agro either. Paladin has HIS conditions for holding agro, and Berzerker has his OWN way. Get to know both ways, because they arent the same as pre LU13. example: before Lu13, getting hit was always a bad thing for sk. now getting hit = damage = more hate = me taunting once and helping my group do some damage. and i like getting hit sometimes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> its bad for my enemy. Oh and dont get me wrong, i think all these skills should proc wether you get hit or not, so you could be avoidant and still have the benefiet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, that pre LU16 patch group i was talking about was Shadowknight(me), Paladin, Swashbuckler, Ranger, Troub, and Templar. no hate loss on my part thanks to the swashies hate transfer and the fact that i can acually get hit and increase agression.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Sasaki Kojiro on <SPAN class=date_text>11-09-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:41 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Sasaki Kojiro on <span class=date_text>11-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:47 AM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Sasaki Kojiro wrote:</P> <P>better one, just dont try to peel agro off of him O.O. alls i can say is, a paladin puts amends on me when im trying to tank, im canceling that [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Agro controll takes cooperation from the group for anyone. remove uncooperative paladins from your equasion and your good to go. I was grouped with a paladin before LU16 update started, and he didnt take agro from me once, since hes one of those cooperative paladins im talking about. can they take agro from you, yeah. should they when they know they aint spost to, no.</P> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thats all fine and dandy vs one single mob Sasa, but what about group mobs? What about Group encounters where a Paladin tank is most likely to be used and the encounter requires a tankl to peel adds off the Paladin which are linked to the main mob which the paladin is tanking, i would LOVE to see a tank take agro off him before he is dead.............but the Paladin needs the skills up to maintain the main mobs agro or he will lose it plain and simple making it almost impossible to peel the adds off him.</P> <P>I watched the same thing happen on God King, we used a Paladin to tank, Berserker to off tank adds away from God King, Berserker hits AoE taunt plus Rampage POOF mobs go directly for Paladin, and even if he didnt hit rampage, the mobs would of eventually gone to the paladin simply because the amount of DPS a Berserker can do over a Paladin just like you Cursaders keep holding us for ransom for which is our "God" like DPS.........</P> <P>Its not about cooperation, its about cooperation going out the window and players just unleashing a wrath of fury on mobs because Paladins can hold agro alot better then all tanks out there and no one has to basically hold back, its about this skill making encounters harder then they acually have to be simply because of the amount of hate the Paladin can gain, and there is no real way to control it except to toggle the ability on and off. Even still, group encounters ( in a raid sense ) to peel adds off a Paladin and try to seperate them so that the entire raid isnt eating PB AoE's and all sorts of other craziness that SoE is coming up with in raids to try and spice it up is near impossible.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sasaki Kojiro wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw, im a SK and i dont really care what kind of agro control paladin has. I know myself if things are done right, i have no problem holding agro either. Paladin has HIS conditions for holding agro, and Berzerker has his OWN way. Get to know both ways, because they arent the same as pre LU13. example: before Lu13, getting hit was always a bad thing for sk. now getting hit = damage = more hate = me taunting once and helping my group do some damage. and i like getting hit sometimes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> its bad for my enemy. Oh and dont get me wrong, i think all these skills should proc wether you get hit or not, so you could be avoidant and still have the benefiet.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If only you played a lvl 50+ Berserker and tried to hold agro on a raid.............its no where near as easy as a Paladin i can assure you that.</P> <P>If all these skills proced when we get hit, we would be a Paladin with amends on a Berserker using Rampage + Open Wounds and all our AoE utility we have got.</P> <P><BR><BR><BR> </P>

[Yrield]

<span><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<div></div> <p>Thats all fine and dandy vs one single mob Sasa, but what about group mobs? What about Group encounters where a Paladin tank is most likely to be used and the encounter requires a tankl to peel adds off the Paladin which are linked to the main mob which the paladin is tanking, i would LOVE to see a tank take agro off him before he is dead.............but the Paladin needs the skills up to maintain the main mobs agro or he will lose it plain and simple making it almost impossible to peel the adds off him.</p> <p>I watched the same thing happen on God King, we used a Paladin to tank, Berserker to off tank adds away from God King, Berserker hits AoE taunt plus Rampage POOF mobs go directly for Paladin, and even if he didnt hit rampage, the mobs would of eventually gone to the paladin simply because the amount of DPS a Berserker can do over a Paladin just like you Cursaders keep holding us for ransom for which is our "God" like DPS.........</p> <p>Its not about cooperation, its about cooperation going out the window and players just unleashing a wrath of fury on mobs because Paladins can hold agro alot better then all tanks out there and no one has to basically hold back, its about this skill making encounters harder then they acually have to be simply because of the amount of hate the Paladin can gain, and there is no real way to control it except to toggle the ability on and off. Even still, group encounters ( in a raid sense ) to peel adds off a Paladin and try to seperate them so that the entire raid isnt eating PB AoE's and all sorts of other craziness that SoE is coming up with in raids to try and spice it up is near impossible.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Well you need to re-work your strat or learn how redemption work. If the paladin is MT and you plan to split agro. the last thing you want to do is to put amends on the OT... its pretty obvious. And as long the adds still alive the paladin is forbiden to use sigil. The target under Amends should assist the MT all the time not the OT/MA</span><div></div>

[einar4]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV> *grins and sighs*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Oh well, for me anyway, there is always alchemy. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>whats funny is that Pallys have always had redemption...always we've ad a mana sieve..and now it becomes an issue?</P> <P>Give me a break...the reason why amends is better is because now players get more aggro. A Paladin would NEVER, EVER cast amends on the MA, so thats crass. Any Paladin worth his salt, who MT's, knows that when you have a MA you cast Amends on the player who will get the least amount of aggro so the MA can do his job.</P> <P>IF we lose the amends line our aggro will be worse than Berserkers..but thats your point right? You guys are so used to being the king of aggro that it sucks to have competition now, right? OMG Palys can tank AND hold aggro, the game is over, right?</P> <P>It was ok when you guys were aggro kings and no one could touch you..but now the your aggro is "broken." Funny, your taunts are still better than ours, and so is you damage, which also causes aggro,</P> <P>Give us your DPS and your taunts, and I'll be the first to ask for our redemption line to be toned down, deal?  So you guys want to do MORE damage Paladins and have BETTER aggro...and tank the same...yeah, sounds peachy.</P>

[Do]

Not as black and white as you paint it, right? Paladins  can heal? LoH? Its very easy to pick out 2 of many statistics to argue a point with. What all classes need is what SoE envisions, not bickering between players. SoE needs to provide specific information on what their goals for each class, aka: Each Class:: DPS Mitigation/Avoidance - vs overall tanking ability Utility weighted factors (skills specific to class) etc. Each class  should get 100 pts and divide them up to show how each class is balanced in a given area(aka strengths and weaknesses).  After that its up to the player to READ and decide which role he wants to play in EQ2. Then you just need SoE to follow their plan. <div></div>

[Styk]

<P>Once again Uzhiel puts a foot in his mouth talking about berserker taunts are more powerful then paladin... Lets do a comparison ( tier 6 agro skills ) </P> <P> </P> <P>Paladin AoE taunt is threat + debuff [ 637- 778 threat increase with a 800 debuff to divine resistance ]</P> <P>Berserker AoE taunt is threat ONLY [ 637 - 778 threat increase ]  Both taunts are at Master 1 </P> <P>WINNER IN AOE TAUNTS IS ---------------> PALADIN</P> <P> </P> <P>Paladin's Clarion Cry ( single target taunt ) is 587-717 with a 117-143 threat DoT every 3 sec for 9 sec ( adept 1)</P> <P>Berserker Single target taunt is 911-1109 at adept 3 </P> <P>WINNER IN SINGLE TARGET TAUNT IS  --------------> Stalemate , can be argued on both ends but sheer initial threat a Berserker taunt is more powerful..</P> <P> </P> <P>Paladin 's  Righteous Dash..... 107-179 DD , 931 threat 4 sec stun,knockdown, vision blurr ( both CA's are at adept 3 ) </P> <P>Berserker DD atk with threat ( both skills mentioned are at adept 3 ) is 550 threat ( 87-261 dd atk ) *sidenote we have a shield bash atk as well but no threat on it*</P> <P>WINNER DD ATK+TAUNT IS ------------> PALADIN</P> <P> </P> <P>Paladin Spell Amends ( adept 3 it is a 41% agro sieve on target that is casted on by paladin ) </P> <P>Berserker comparable ability NONE</P> <P> </P> <P>Lvl 52 agro ability ( Sigil of Heroism ) </P> <P>Paladin group agro sieve adept 3  is 32% agro sieve upon group for 30 sec recast time 3 min ? ( not to sure on recast ) </P> <P>Berserker Insolent Gibe PBae Taunt adept 3      941-1141 intial threat PBae ( 15 m range ) after for 30 sec has a 50% to proc a 347 threat taunt to area of effect if caster is struck.... </P> <P>From my analysis the Paladin 52 ability is alot more usefull for one major reason... with it up you can have a heavy dps group that your tanking go balls to the walls for 30 sec and its ok because you are gaining agro from it....</P> <P>Berserker PBae is very situational...... needs to have very few adds in a large radius around zerker ( try using it with 3-4 large group encounters in the area and berserker will go splat quick) </P> <P>SO IMO winner for more powerful lvl 52 threat ability is PALADIN</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>So Uzhiel what is this your saying again about zerkers having more powerful taunts the paladins?  Would you like me to get started on Paladin Utlity as well ? </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Styker on <SPAN class=date_text>11-10-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:40 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Styker on <SPAN class=date_text>11-10-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:42 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Styker on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:45 AM</span>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>Styker, if Palys have always had these skills, why is it all of a sudden an issue now? How many times have we said that the debuff does nothing? I 've never seen any proff that it even works.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your taunts are more powerful than ours...you just dont have as many. Why? Because your DPS allows you to keep aggro just fine. How do you think Bruisers and Monks keep aggro? Since when did Berserkers ever have a problem keeping or stealing aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=18553#M18553" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=18553#M18553</A></DIV> <DIV>Thats what happens when we dont have amends..How uber are those taunts now?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guess what..Guards have more taunts than both of our lines, and they STILL lost aggro to Berserkers..What does that show? That your DPS works just as well as our aggro skills. If you're not the MT for your guild, thats your leaders decision. In my guild we have lvl 60 monks, Guards, Sk's, Paladins, and Berserkers..and guess who's the MT?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Guard.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If Paladin aggro was so good then how come those skills, that we've had since pre DoF, are so UBER now?</DIV> <DIV>The Paladin was still the third best choice to MT raids? why? because Guards and Berserkers had better aggro.</DIV> <DIV>The only thing DOF did was give Paladins an advantage in aggro because we lost some of our DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserkers cannot have better DPS, same or better aggro, and same tanking skills as Paladins. If thats what your asking for then your asking for Berserkers to be the next UBER plate tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Utility is a different argument. Palys heal, Berserkers kill. If thats not the case then argue for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Calling for nerfs on other classes is crass.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:15 AM</span>

[infernus006]

well i personally hardly ever use the offensive stance anyway (i prefer to tank with the defense one on and i can still hold aggro pretty well despite the dps reduction from it) but i still don't like the idea of having our offensive stance nerfed like this.  the point being i can hardly stand to use it as it is because of the huge defense debuff on it so this nerf just makes it even less desireable for me to ever bother with. <div></div>

[Rashen]

<P>Uzhiel, your debufs do generate hate toward the mob you are attacking.  SoE has already recognized this as an issue with scouts and their debuff skills causing too much hate as they lowered that in this last update.  </P> <P>- Many Scout attacks that debuff more than one attribute now generate less hate.<BR></P> <P>So the more debuffs you have in your attacks the more hate you generate.</P>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>I know..but pallys only have <EM><STRONG><U>ONE</U></STRONG></EM> debuff..and thats on our taunt. We lost all our other debuffs. </P> <P>Look, I agree that Berserkers could use more utility..and I also agree that if your aggro does need a lift, then by all means you guys should fight it.</P> <P>I'm sure that you guys have bugged spells, or spells that dont work as intended. Paladins did too, and we fought it. We fought by continuously posting concrete data, parses, and screenhosts.</P> <P>We didnt call for nerfs to other classes. It took us 11 months to get our stuff looked at. I remember reading posts back in feb about how poor healers thought of Palys when they tanked. Many guilds wouldnt even let their Palys tanks. We were rez bots.</P> <P>Pointing fingers at other tanks and saying, "if were nerfed, then nerf them," is not the smartest way to do it. The only thing that accomplishes is even more fingerpointing and class wars. We dont need that right now. There's still issues like mitigation and avoidance for plate tanks that still need to be addressed, and they need to be addressed by all plate tanks working together.</P> <P>Im all for Berserkers getting their stuff fixed..but not at the expense of Paladins, who just recently became a viable raid tank.</P>

[KFizzle]

<P>i HATE being part of these conversations Uz, but you made an ASSANINE statement.</P> <P>"Utility is a different argument. Palys heal, Berserkers kill. If thats not the case then argue for it."</P> <P>If thats your arguement then our DPS is our utility. So give us better taunts to better hold agro etc.</P> <P>I personally think our taunts are fine, i have less a problem with our taunts than i do other things. Our lack of utility is astounding. I dont know what Guardians do, but SKs can evac and do some kinda heal thing ... Pally's heal and rez, Monks heal, no idea about bruisers, but our utility is uh.....uh.......nothing? A HP Regen?? Everyone always throws out "Well in one minute you can regen ____ HPs" ... yeah but if your relying on a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] HP regen to stay alive, you're done. You can Regen like what 100 something per tick..............when most t6 mobs can do a whole lot more than that, a whole lot faster.</P> <P>I'm not crying for a nerf to ANY Class.</P> <P>I'm saying give us some god damned utility role. Our utility was our Haste and HP buffs...we had those taken away...now its just a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] HP regen. Our Str Buff is nice, but thats the best we can bring to the table???</P> <P>I LOVE Tanking, and I LOVE when i can 'OT.' It's partial myth and partial truth when people prefer other tanks to Zerkers. I don't get too upset when people want someone else to do the tanking, because then theres less responsibility on me, i can just spam my DPS stuff and feel like i contributed in that way ... but now when we do less DPS, and cant bring the 1000+ Hps and the Haste we used to bring to the table, It's harder to even find a group willing to take you.</P> <P>The whole arguement that our DPS is higher so our taunts are lower, becomes moot when you look at how our utility SUCKS now compared to other classes.</P> <P>YES We were overpowered before, Now we're underpowered. I'm just trying to deal with it, i just hate when people say that "Your DPS is better, so our taunts and utility should be much better than yours." Our DPS isn't THAT Much better anymore. </P> <P>And anyone who is gunna say 'reroll' or learn to play the class, kiss my you know what, I know how to play, I tank god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fantastic when given then chance, if you think people don't 'discriminate' you are playing on a server that apparently i should be on.</P>

[Rashen]

<P>Actually Uz that was just you that was used as a rez bot for our raids well cuz what good are paladins and we felt sorry for you so had to give you something to do in the raids <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>-Arnus</P>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV> <DIV>"Utility is a different argument. Palys heal, Berserkers kill. If thats not the case then argue for it."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Umm..I did say Berserkers utility was DPS. You must have missed this statement. You must also have missed the part where I said if thats not the case, then you should argue for it. :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scroll up a bit, you'll see it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Arnus is right by the way...I was my guilds rez [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for pretty much my entire raiding career..sometimes I was DPS and a couple of times I was even one of the healers. Once, in Spirits of the Lost, the Guard got 2 shotted and I stepped in and tanked him. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Often I heard the sad, "but we already have 2 palys in the raid" statement, which was my cue to move on to the next raid mob. :smileysad: I was a water boy..I still am.. :smileytongue:</DIV></DIV>

[Sasaki Koji]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kfizzle wrote:<BR> <P>i HATE being part of these conversations Uz, but you made an ASSANINE statement.</P> <P>"Utility is a different argument. Palys heal, Berserkers kill. If thats not the case then argue for it."</P> <P>If thats your arguement then our DPS is our utility. So give us better taunts to better hold agro etc.</P> <P>I personally think our taunts are fine, i have less a problem with our taunts than i do other things. Our lack of utility is astounding. I dont know what Guardians do, but SKs can evac and do some kinda heal thing ... Pally's heal and rez, Monks heal, no idea about bruisers, but our utility is uh.....uh.......nothing? A HP Regen?? Everyone always throws out "Well in one minute you can regen ____ HPs" ... yeah but if your relying on a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] HP regen to stay alive, you're done. You can Regen like what 100 something per tick..............when most t6 mobs can do a whole lot more than that, a whole lot faster.</P> <P>I'm not crying for a nerf to ANY Class.</P> <P>I'm saying give us some god damned utility role. Our utility was our Haste and HP buffs...we had those taken away...now its just a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] HP regen. Our Str Buff is nice, but thats the best we can bring to the table???</P> <P>I LOVE Tanking, and I LOVE when i can 'OT.' It's partial myth and partial truth when people prefer other tanks to Zerkers. I don't get too upset when people want someone else to do the tanking, because then theres less responsibility on me, i can just spam my DPS stuff and feel like i contributed in that way ... but now when we do less DPS, and cant bring the 1000+ Hps and the Haste we used to bring to the table, It's harder to even find a group willing to take you.</P> <P>The whole arguement that our DPS is higher so our taunts are lower, becomes moot when you look at how our utility SUCKS now compared to other classes.</P> <P>YES We were overpowered before, Now we're underpowered. I'm just trying to deal with it, i just hate when people say that "Your DPS is better, so our taunts and utility should be much better than yours." Our DPS isn't THAT Much better anymore. </P> <P>And anyone who is gunna say 'reroll' or learn to play the class, kiss my you know what, I know how to play, I tank god [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fantastic when given then chance, if you think people don't 'discriminate' you are playing on a server that apparently i should be on.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Cry nerf for SK, because i dont want evac at all.. id rather have my self invis from the shadowknights of old <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

[Sasaki Koji]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>"Utility is a different argument. Palys heal, Berserkers kill. If thats not the case then argue for it."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Umm..I did say Berserkers utility was DPS. You must have missed this statement. You must also have missed the part where I said if thats not the case, then you should argue for it. :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Scroll up a bit, you'll see it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Arnus is right by the way...I was my guilds rez [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] for pretty much my entire raiding career..sometimes I was DPS and a couple of times I was even one of the healers. Once, in Spirits of the Lost, the Guard got 2 shotted and I stepped in and tanked him. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Often I heard the sad, "but we already have 2 palys in the raid" statement, which was my cue to move on to the next raid mob. :smileysad: I was a water boy..I still am.. :smileytongue:</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>what i say to that is priests shoulda been the only ones with a fast recast in-combat res <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. made me as a sk feel really worthless, and i acually was heh. all i had was Dispoiling mist wich often got me or others agro for using, but it made others do more damage. even got told not to use it sometimes, i could just call it quits at times like those. two paladins was good, one shadowknight was questionable <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

[KFizzle]

<DIV>AHEM i said If your Saying DPS Is our Utility then dont [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] if we want more agro from taunts or more DPS because you have better utility than us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can't say our taunts aren't as good because our DPS is better ... but then have far better Utility than us as well. Thats three categories...Offense, Defense and Utility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your Defense (Taunting would be considered that to me) Is better, and your Utility is FAR Better, then shouldn't our Offense be like INSANELY better? I think it should be even higher to compensate for our lack of utility.</DIV>

[Belgor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR> <P>Once again Uzhiel puts a foot in his mouth talking about berserker taunts are more powerful then paladin... Lets do a comparison ( tier 6 agro skills ) </P> <P> </P> <P>Paladin AoE taunt is threat + debuff [ 637- 778 threat increase with a 800 debuff to divine resistance ]</P> <P>Berserker AoE taunt is threat ONLY [ 637 - 778 threat increase ]  Both taunts are at Master 1 </P> <P>WINNER IN AOE TAUNTS IS ---------------> PALADIN</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>You forgot to mention how the Berserker taunt can be used while stunned and while stifled...  but thats not important right?</FONT></P> <P>Paladin's Clarion Cry ( single target taunt ) is 587-717 with a 117-143 threat DoT every 3 sec for 9 sec ( adept 1)</P> <P>Berserker Single target taunt is 911-1109 at adept 3 </P> <P>WINNER IN SINGLE TARGET TAUNT IS  --------------> Stalemate , can be argued on both ends but sheer initial threat a Berserker taunt is more powerful..</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I agree with this one, berserker one is probably more powerfull, since you have your direct effect every 8 second, while the paladin have to wait 9 second for complete effect to taunt again, else it overwrites last tick.</FONT></P> <P>Paladin 's  Righteous Dash..... 107-179 DD , 931 threat 4 sec stun,knockdown, vision blurr ( both CA's are at adept 3 ) </P> <P>Berserker DD atk with threat ( both skills mentioned are at adept 3 ) is 550 threat ( 87-261 dd atk ) *sidenote we have a shield bash atk as well but no threat on it*</P> <P>WINNER DD ATK+TAUNT IS ------------> PALADIN</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Here you forgot to mention recasts. As far as I know, the Berserker skill has a 10 sec recast?  Paladin has 20sec.  Winner Berserker?</FONT></P> <P>Paladin Spell Amends ( adept 3 it is a 41% agro sieve on target that is casted on by paladin ) </P> <P>Berserker comparable ability NONE</P> <P> </P> <P>Lvl 52 agro ability ( Sigil of Heroism ) </P> <P>Paladin group agro sieve adept 3  is 32% agro sieve upon group for 30 sec recast time 3 min ? ( not to sure on recast ) </P> <P>Berserker Insolent Gibe PBae Taunt adept 3      941-1141 intial threat PBae ( 15 m range ) after for 30 sec has a 50% to proc a 347 threat taunt to area of effect if caster is struck.... </P> <P>From my analysis the Paladin 52 ability is alot more usefull for one major reason... with it up you can have a heavy dps group that your tanking go balls to the walls for 30 sec and its ok because you are gaining agro from it....</P> <P>Berserker PBae is very situational...... needs to have very few adds in a large radius around zerker ( try using it with 3-4 large group encounters in the area and berserker will go splat quick) </P> <P>SO IMO winner for more powerful lvl 52 threat ability is PALADIN</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Last time I checked, the duration of the paladin group-siphon was 15 seconds, unless that has changed in this patch (cant check atm).</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>So Uzhiel what is this your saying again about zerkers having more powerful taunts the paladins?  Would you like me to get started on Paladin Utlity as well ? </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>In my opinion berserkers have way better taunts if you do not count the agro-siphons. And you say that our AE-taunt has a debuff for increased agro. Well, guess what, you have debuffs aswell, and more than 1. Paladins only have this debuff. Our only AE-taunt only works in the same encounter also, we have no taunts that work PBAE.<BR>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>Kfizzle, Its your class, not mine. I have enough to worry about when it comes to mine. I dont particularly mind your DPS, and your aggro. </P> <P>You should read before you shoot from the hip. My issue is not with your class fixes, or lack thereof. </P> <P>My issue is with Styker calling for Paladin nerfs. How you people manage your class is up to you. If you scroll up, this is where Paladins became involved. Up to that point, there had been no Paladin posting, its when Styker started throwing out the nerf comments that thigs became heated.</P> <P>Yes, your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] utility is your DPS. Nowhere did I state it was ok for your DPS to be nerfed. I dont know where you got that, but I got a feeling you skimmed through my posts and misunderstood WHY I started posting in the first place.</P> <P>Offense-Beserker</P> <P>Defense-Paladin</P> <P>Utility-Palys heal, Berserkers kill. </P> <P>Our heals act as defense and your DPS acts as offense. Both our class utility is tied into what our classes <STRONG><U><EM>do.</EM> </U></STRONG>  If your Utility doesnt match ours then argue the point. Styker is not arguing the point. Hes calling for Paly nerfs. </P><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:49 AM</span>

[KFizzle]

<DIV>I'm not calling for a Pally nerf in the least, I'm not doing anything but disputing your fact that the two are comparable. While I agree thats how our class apparently is, in my opinion unless we had higher DPS it makes no sence. We aren't as well equiped to deal as Pallys, I don't think Pallys should be nerfed at all however, but rather zerkers AOE DPS brought UP. Why? Because I think thats a nice little niche we can fit into that maybe other tanks don't already have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks/Bruisers have superior single target DPS and superior utility(by far)...but its also hard for me to compare how the defense works since i still dont like the 'avoidance' over mitigation (but apparently people seem to prefer the other way.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was 'shooting from the hip' after reading what you wrote because despite strykers over zealous approach about how Zerkers should be the number 1 tank, You tried to dispute the fact that Paladins are (right now at least) the superior choice for group play, tanking and soloing. While I LOVE my zerker and I think I play him [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well, I would love to be able to heal myself. The horsie is ok but I also wouldn't mind a spell like Amends, i wouldnt even have to worry about agro because i'd slap it on the biggest DPS in my group and just chill. As it is, I am a mana draining [Removed for Content] just spamming taunts while rooted in offending defense, and trying to throw some DPS out there because if i don't I WILL Lose agro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't personally want to see much change, either just a little buff in our AOE DPS, or good god a 'utility' spell/skill that maybe either other tanks dont have or something that i dont know serves a purpose. If you want to just give me back my HP and Haste buffs thats fine, i wouldnt mind. If not, maybe give me some kind of Evac, Speed Buff or god knows i wouldnt mind either a POWER Regen or a POWER Buff. My Mana/Power drops at a astronomical rate when tanking if i'm pulling at any sort of decent speed, even with T6 drink. Cant wait to see how 'Vision of Madness' works in combat...THAT Seems like a good CA.</DIV> <DIV><BR>Nothing personal dude but claiming that Zerkers are 'as good' as Paladins isn't quite true, at least not in the current incarnations of things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does that mean Zerkers are 'broke'? Not at all. I just think CU13 dropped us alot and the last couple dropped us a bit more, which is frustrating to me. We went from being way over powered to being middle of the road at best (I still think Mit is easier for healers than Avoidance because you can 'time' things better), and the thought of us being 'hurt' more if nothing else 'scares us.'</DIV> <DIV><BR>I guarentee if you give Zerkers something they could 'bring to the table' that maybe other tanks didnt have, we would have something more to be proud of, something more to say "look we can do this, they can't."<BR></DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>Thats a civilized, intelligent response and I do agree that if your DPS isnt working to maintain aggro as well as our skills, then it should be fixed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[KFizzle]

<DIV>That was more my point ... and as for our taunts being buffed or our DPS being buffed...to be honest I really wouldn't care if it stayed the same IF we had some kinda Mana regen buff, or alot less mana to use our stuff, because in ONE decent fight i can go from 100% mana to 0 in just about a minute.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Come to think of it, THAT Sounds more like a 'berserker' to me than most of our stuff ... someone who is SO angry ... SO filled with hate and or battle lust that they keep going when most people wouldnt be able to lift their arm to swing an axe/sword/whatever ... give us something to let us keep going when others would 'drop from exhaustion.' To be honest, Keep everything else the same, just give me some kinda Mana regen buff and i'm good, that gives us something to bring to the table if its group, and if its self, well at least it will help me tank because god knows i HAVE to keep the taunts coming because if i run out of power and stop, we could be in some real trouble.</DIV>

[Poochymama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Belgorim wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR> <P>Once again Uzhiel puts a foot in his mouth talking about berserker taunts are more powerful then paladin... Lets do a comparison ( tier 6 agro skills ) </P> <P> </P> <P>Paladin AoE taunt is threat + debuff [ 637- 778 threat increase with a 800 debuff to divine resistance ]</P> <P>Berserker AoE taunt is threat ONLY [ 637 - 778 threat increase ]  Both taunts are at Master 1 </P> <P>WINNER IN AOE TAUNTS IS ---------------> PALADIN</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>You forgot to mention how the Berserker taunt can be used while stunned and while stifled...  but thats not important right?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Umm no it cant.</FONT></P> <P>Paladin's Clarion Cry ( single target taunt ) is 587-717 with a 117-143 threat DoT every 3 sec for 9 sec ( adept 1)</P> <P>Berserker Single target taunt is 911-1109 at adept 3 </P> <P>WINNER IN SINGLE TARGET TAUNT IS  --------------> Stalemate , can be argued on both ends but sheer initial threat a Berserker taunt is more powerful..</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I agree with this one, berserker one is probably more powerfull, since you have your direct effect every 8 second, while the paladin have to wait 9 second for complete effect to taunt again, else it overwrites last tick.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>The dot keeps ticking even while your stunned, but thats not important right?</FONT></P> <P>Paladin 's  Righteous Dash..... 107-179 DD , 931 threat 4 sec stun,knockdown, vision blurr ( both CA's are at adept 3 ) </P> <P>Berserker DD atk with threat ( both skills mentioned are at adept 3 ) is 550 threat ( 87-261 dd atk ) *sidenote we have a shield bash atk as well but no threat on it*</P> <P>WINNER DD ATK+TAUNT IS ------------> PALADIN</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Here you forgot to mention recasts. As far as I know, the Berserker skill has a 10 sec recast?  Paladin has 20sec.  Winner Berserker?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>20 sec</FONT></P> <P>Paladin Spell Amends ( adept 3 it is a 41% agro sieve on target that is casted on by paladin ) </P> <P>Berserker comparable ability NONE</P> <P> </P> <P>Lvl 52 agro ability ( Sigil of Heroism ) </P> <P>Paladin group agro sieve adept 3  is 32% agro sieve upon group for 30 sec recast time 3 min ? ( not to sure on recast ) </P> <P>Berserker Insolent Gibe PBae Taunt adept 3      941-1141 intial threat PBae ( 15 m range ) after for 30 sec has a 50% to proc a 347 threat taunt to area of effect if caster is struck.... </P> <P>From my analysis the Paladin 52 ability is alot more usefull for one major reason... with it up you can have a heavy dps group that your tanking go balls to the walls for 30 sec and its ok because you are gaining agro from it....</P> <P>Berserker PBae is very situational...... needs to have very few adds in a large radius around zerker ( try using it with 3-4 large group encounters in the area and berserker will go splat quick) </P> <P>SO IMO winner for more powerful lvl 52 threat ability is PALADIN</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Last time I checked, the duration of the paladin group-siphon was 15 seconds, unless that has changed in this patch (cant check atm).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>32% of 4 DPS classes going balls to walls for 15 sec generates a HELL of a lot of hate.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>So Uzhiel what is this your saying again about zerkers having more powerful taunts the paladins?  Would you like me to get started on Paladin Utlity as well ? </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>In my opinion berserkers have way better taunts if you do not count the agro-siphons. And you say that our AE-taunt has a debuff for increased agro. Well, guess what, you have debuffs aswell, and more than 1. Paladins only have this debuff. Our only AE-taunt only works in the same encounter also, we have no taunts that work PBAE.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>guys, guys..peace.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think we're all in agreement here..just different ways. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If Berserkers are having aggro problems, then they need better taunts, or more DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Palys have one debuff, Berserkers have more debuffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DPS to maintain aggro works better than taunts, if the DPS output is working correctly. You do 3 things at once: damage, aggro, and save power......whereas taunts just aggro's and costs power.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserkers need a boost to their utility, independent of their DPS. Maybe grp damage buffs, since Palys have a grp heal. Something along the lines of a grp berzerk buff, or a grp HP regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Poochymama likes chicken, we can all agree on that. :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>11-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:25 PM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DPS to maintain aggro works better than taunts, if the DPS output is working correctly. You do 3 things at once: damage, aggro, and save power......whereas taunts just aggro's and costs power.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ill totally agree with that, when played correctly with the right skills at Adept III / Master I, it is possible to keep good agro, but its not easy to maintain it because your basically on the edge of losing it due to relying on medium DPS plus low taunts to mainaint it for you.</P> <P>For me i like the way i use my skills to hold agro, i use my DPS to my fullest potential ( minus the Fury line because the Defense hit is just too much to be worth it, especially when tanking zones like Poets Palace vs the lvl 60+ mobs and besides, i like to play a power effcient character so healers have more power to heal with ) while using my medium level taunts also, its good fun knowing that you are on the edge of losing agro, its just not so fun for the person on the receiving end if you do lose it.</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserkers need a boost to their utility, independent of their DPS. Maybe grp damage buffs, since Palys have a grp heal. Something along the lines of a grp berzerk buff, or a grp HP regen.</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><BR>We accually already have a Group Berserk buff and a Group HP regen buff.</P> <P>Group Berserk buff got nerfed in LU#16 to half of what it was before LU#16, and the Group HP regen at Adept III is 55 hp per tick, now im not sure about you, but how many mobs do you fight that this 55 hp regen a tick acually even help you? How many times do you in a group even need 55 HP regen a tick with a decent tank who can keep agro or get adds attention fast enough to not have someone die from a add before he notices there is a add there?</P> <P>The answer is, the Group HP regen is worthless to say the least, mobs damage output on anyone but a Tank class is too strong and too powerful anyway, so saying you do lose agro or a powerful add does add for some unforseen reason due to bad postioning of the group, not enough DPS to clear fast enough and getting caught in back pops etc etc, it doesnt help one little bit.</P> <P>The Group Berserk buff is still a decent buff, but the group only has a 10% chance to proc it on a succesful melee attack where before LU#16 it was a 20% chance, now one can look at how much more effective Dual Weilding has become, and seeing there is basically hardly any DPS classes out there that use a 2 hand wep to DPS, then one can understand why they nerfed this and thats totally understandable and i agree with it.</P> <P>My suggestion is this, seeing as the main problem here is due to Taunts being resisted compaired to Amends not being resisted because its acually transfering any agro the person who has the buff on directly to the Paladin himself therefore making it alot easier for the Paladin to control and maintain his agro because of less resists, make some other classes taunts a tad stronger and maybe lower the chance to resist on taunts.</P> <P>SoE has stated many times that the Warrior line ( Berserkers / Guardians ) are good at locking down agro on a group of mobs and controling their agro, so id like to suggest that maybe increase the amount of Threat on the entire Provoking Defense line which includes Provoking Defense, Defending Defense, Taunting Defense so that we can accually generate a good solid amount of agro like the rest of the Tank classes can. Seeing as our Defense line is only a 20% chance to proc on taking damage because it has damage tied into it, it really does not make this as effective as a Guardians Assault line which has no damage tied into it but has a 50% chance to proc when taking damage. Another argument can be generated by the tanks who build themselves around Avoidance / Mitigation and can be said that our Defense line accually even becomes alot more worse for wear when we start avoiding most of our incoming damage in the form of Parry, Block, Dodge or Riposte making that 20% to proc even harder again. Top that off with the amount of damage that the skill accually does, does not weight up against a Guardians 50% chance to proc a pure and stronger group encounter taunt.</P> <P>Thanks for reading to those who did.</P>

[Belgor]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Poochymama p wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Belgorim wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR> <P>Once again Uzhiel puts a foot in his mouth talking about berserker taunts are more powerful then paladin... Lets do a comparison ( tier 6 agro skills ) </P> <P> </P> <P>Paladin AoE taunt is threat + debuff [ 637- 778 threat increase with a 800 debuff to divine resistance ]</P> <P>Berserker AoE taunt is threat ONLY [ 637 - 778 threat increase ]  Both taunts are at Master 1 </P> <P>WINNER IN AOE TAUNTS IS ---------------> PALADIN</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>You forgot to mention how the Berserker taunt can be used while stunned and while stifled...  but thats not important right?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Umm no it cant.</FONT></P> <P>Paladin's Clarion Cry ( single target taunt ) is 587-717 with a 117-143 threat DoT every 3 sec for 9 sec ( adept 1)</P> <P>Berserker Single target taunt is 911-1109 at adept 3 </P> <P>WINNER IN SINGLE TARGET TAUNT IS  --------------> Stalemate , can be argued on both ends but sheer initial threat a Berserker taunt is more powerful..</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I agree with this one, berserker one is probably more powerfull, since you have your direct effect every 8 second, while the paladin have to wait 9 second for complete effect to taunt again, else it overwrites last tick.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>The dot keeps ticking even while your stunned, but thats not important right?</FONT></P> <P>Paladin 's  Righteous Dash..... 107-179 DD , 931 threat 4 sec stun,knockdown, vision blurr ( both CA's are at adept 3 ) </P> <P>Berserker DD atk with threat ( both skills mentioned are at adept 3 ) is 550 threat ( 87-261 dd atk ) *sidenote we have a shield bash atk as well but no threat on it*</P> <P>WINNER DD ATK+TAUNT IS ------------> PALADIN</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Here you forgot to mention recasts. As far as I know, the Berserker skill has a 10 sec recast?  Paladin has 20sec.  Winner Berserker?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>20 sec</FONT></P> <P>Paladin Spell Amends ( adept 3 it is a 41% agro sieve on target that is casted on by paladin ) </P> <P>Berserker comparable ability NONE</P> <P> </P> <P>Lvl 52 agro ability ( Sigil of Heroism ) </P> <P>Paladin group agro sieve adept 3  is 32% agro sieve upon group for 30 sec recast time 3 min ? ( not to sure on recast ) </P> <P>Berserker Insolent Gibe PBae Taunt adept 3      941-1141 intial threat PBae ( 15 m range ) after for 30 sec has a 50% to proc a 347 threat taunt to area of effect if caster is struck.... </P> <P>From my analysis the Paladin 52 ability is alot more usefull for one major reason... with it up you can have a heavy dps group that your tanking go balls to the walls for 30 sec and its ok because you are gaining agro from it....</P> <P>Berserker PBae is very situational...... needs to have very few adds in a large radius around zerker ( try using it with 3-4 large group encounters in the area and berserker will go splat quick) </P> <P>SO IMO winner for more powerful lvl 52 threat ability is PALADIN</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Last time I checked, the duration of the paladin group-siphon was 15 seconds, unless that has changed in this patch (cant check atm).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>32% of 4 DPS classes going balls to walls for 15 sec generates a HELL of a lot of hate.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>So Uzhiel what is this your saying again about zerkers having more powerful taunts the paladins?  Would you like me to get started on Paladin Utlity as well ? </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>In my opinion berserkers have way better taunts if you do not count the agro-siphons. And you say that our AE-taunt has a debuff for increased agro. Well, guess what, you have debuffs aswell, and more than 1. Paladins only have this debuff. Our only AE-taunt only works in the same encounter also, we have no taunts that work PBAE.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>If this is true then your thread with 51-60 abilities is seriously outdated <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because all the things I said can be found easily on the pictures in it.<BR></DIV>

[Styk]

<DIV>OK for one our group berserker proc buff was nerfed in 16 ( they reduced the rate it procs ) along with our single target berserk proc buff.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Two Debuffs generate alot of hate ( which makes me wonder why SoE changed Doom Judegment from a PEae DD + 2% dps debuff to a AE dd with a magic and noxious debuff to it ( hmm another agro tool ) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have seen it personally how good agro sieve abilities work... If berserkers are gonna get their dps reduced ( we have good dps while tanking when using our OFFENSE STANCE ) our defense stance kills our dps therefore weaker agro generation.. Paladins dont suffer from  that issue ... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Idealy warriors were suppose to have better group agro ( which isnt the case currently ) , I cant say Shadow Knights are unbalance because they dont have agro sieve abilities like Paladins do.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brawlers types arent overpowered tanking as well because for one they have crap group agro management, Two they are not very good raid tanks ... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians have great defense but are actually worse off then zerkers are agro wise.... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can totally understand why Uzhiel is freaked out about me calling out Paladin agro ability  ( i would be also if i was a pally ) But for pallys to say that we have more agro then they do now is a flat out LIE... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not only do you have better agro then we do, You have massive utility on raids ( lets see plow tanks, battle rez, beneficial buffs esp for casters since the agro sieve is also a good stop gap for agro when you put it on a warlock, wizard, pet class etc, gives them more leeway to dps .... ) You also have a Mitigation transfer buff that works as intended now ... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AM i missiing something or is all that i describe just a lie ? You tell me </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS .. tell me where in the berserker skill set do i have TWO SETS OF GROUP DEBUFFS AT ? </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Styker on <span class=date_text>11-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:39 AM</span>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>Styker, I never said you have grp debuffs. I said you have more debuffs than us, and its true, you do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#cc66ff size=3>53 - Unyeilding Battering: Attack which reduces target offence</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#cc66ff size=3><SPAN><FONT color=#cc66ff size=3><FONT color=#cc66cc>56</FONT> - Amputate: High damage slashing DoT, and decreases attack speed of target</FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#cc66ff size=3><SPAN><FONT color=#cc66ff size=3>59.6 - Ruthless Strike: Damage + interrupt + debuff Focus</FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#cc66ff size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>As for mitigation buff:</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#cc66ff size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Paladin--Pleade of Armament--Adept1 (51.3): 80 power, Increase Mitigation of target vs physical 319, Decrease MItigation of caster vs physical 531</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#cc66ff size=3>Berserker--54.4 - Chaos: Group mitigation buff</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <P><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>We both have one, is ours better? dunno, but look at our downside. </FONT></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff size=3><FONT color=#ffffff>Battle</FONT> rez, well, lets see, Necros, every healer type, and Dirges have a battle rez. Paladins have always had a battle rez...and yes, it was nerfed. I have to be standing right on top of you, which in raid is pretty useless.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>Grp buffs? lets see</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=3>Paladin: Crusade: Master1 (51.3): Increase WIS and STR of group by 41 (no upgrade)</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=3>Berserker: <SPAN><FONT color=#cc66ff size=3>51 - Berserk Cry: Group STR buff--somewhere around 80+ stre I believe</FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#cc66ff size=3><SPAN>                  52.6 - War Call: Group berserk proc </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=3>I understand that you are upset about some of the stuff happening to your class, but calling nerfs on Paladins is not the way to go about fixing it. The only thing your doing is turning one class against another..because I guarantee you if Amends we're to be nerfed you have every paladin out there calling for nerfs on Berserker DPS. No one wants this.</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><SPAN><SPAN>Argue for more utility or more DPS, dont argue for us to be nerfed. Thats just uncool.</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#cc66ff></FONT></FONT></DIV></SPAN></SPAN>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div> <div> <div><u>"If they are going to reduce our damage output by that much ( which means agro ability will be lessened ) when will they scale down the effectiveness of the paladin agro sieve lines ? ( amends and their group agro sieve is the reason why paladins are tanking for us now in raids ) Also when are they gonna take a look at the paladin AE taunt ( hmmm threat + debuff is more powerful then str8 threat ) </u></div> <div><u></u> </div> <div><u>Keep it fair SoE, since you feel that we are "too powerful" spread your nerf love accross the board then "</u></div> <div><u></u> </div> <div><u></u> </div> <div>This is what Styker wrote. He's calling for nerfs to us. This is his entire post. Nowhere does he argue to improve his Berserker, he just calls for nerfs on us. Now, I'd like to see a post in the Paladin forums where we call for a nerf to Berserker damage or Berserker taunts. I've never heard of a Paladin stealing a Berserkers aggro. Even with your damage nerfed..not by PALADINS, but by SoE, you STILL out DPS by a quite a bit. </div> <div> </div> <div>How about waiting for this to hit live before you call for nerfs on us. If it's that bad of a change, and it does hurt your aggro skills, then argue to increase your taunts or to improve your aggro somewhere. Dont drag another class down who had absolutely nothing to do with this. </div> <div> </div> <div>I can understand frustration, but calling for a nerf to another class is NOT the way to improve yours.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div></div><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class="date_text">11-08-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:00 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>I swear, half the posts on this board is "don't nerf anyone" posts.  I understand the psychological need to keep what you have and only be happy if changes give you more, but really, people need to get over it.</span><div></div>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div> <div><font size="3"><span><span>Argue for more utility or more DPS, dont argue for us to be nerfed. Thats just uncool.</span></span><span><span><font color="#cc66ff"></font></span></span></font></div><hr></blockquote> Saying "don't nerf anything" is also uncool.  If the devs just gave more UPS and Utility whenever they tweaked classes, we'll need a massive downgrade revamp or upgrade on mobs in a few months.</span><div></div>

[KFizzle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV><FONT size=3><SPAN><SPAN>Argue for more utility or more DPS, dont argue for us to be nerfed. Thats just uncool.</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#cc66ff></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Saying "don't nerf anything" is also uncool. <STRONG><EM> If the devs just gave more UPS and Utility whenever they tweaked classes,</EM></STRONG> we'll need a massive downgrade revamp or upgrade on mobs in a few months.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That's all i'm asking for ... more UPS.</DIV> <DIV>:smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Sokolov]

LOL =D <div></div>

[einar4]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kfizzle wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV><FONT size=3><SPAN><SPAN>Argue for more utility or more DPS, dont argue for us to be nerfed. Thats just uncool.</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#cc66ff></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Saying "don't nerf anything" is also uncool. <STRONG><EM> If the devs just gave more UPS and Utility whenever they tweaked classes,</EM></STRONG> we'll need a massive downgrade revamp or upgrade on mobs in a few months.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That's all i'm asking for ... more UPS.</DIV> <DIV>:smileyhappy:</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> Oh no! They are downgrading our Underpants per Second? :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Group Berserk buff got nerfed in LU#16 to half of what it was before LU#16, and the Group HP regen at Adept III is 55 hp per tick, now im not sure about you, but how many mobs do you fight that this 55 hp regen a tick acually even help you? How many times do you in a group even need 55 HP regen a tick with a decent tank who can keep agro or get adds attention fast enough to not have someone die from a add before he notices there is a add there?</P> <P>The answer is, the Group HP regen is worthless to say the least, mobs damage output on anyone but a Tank class is too strong and too powerful anyway, so saying you do lose agro or a powerful add does add for some unforseen reason due to bad postioning of the group, not enough DPS to clear fast enough and getting caught in back pops etc etc, it doesnt help one little bit.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree if talking about healing damage done while being beat on by a mob, regen is worthless.  Healers have a tendancy to keep the MT topped off if possible which makes the regen (group and self) pointless in most situations.  However, there are a few times that the group regen does come in handy.  Most of the time it involves everybody using the manastone or necro hearts though :smileyvery-happy:<BR></P>

[Sasaki Koji]

I too think that was a sensless nerf. what was the big deal in it?