Update #16... what is this?

[cr0wangel]

<DIV><STRONG>Berserker changes:<BR></STRONG>- Furious Rush now does crushing damage.<BR><STRONG>- The Berserk effect no longer plays an animation when triggered.</STRONG><BR>- Wall of Fury now costs less power and boosts physical resistances instead of avoidance. The ability now triggers when attacks are made, and it will trigger more often.<BR>- Battle Chant now has a chance to trigger Berserk when a target dies; it now procs Berserk half as often across the entire group as the single-target version does for the Berserker.<BR>- The reuse timer of Press was reduced from 30 seconds to 20 seconds.<BR>- Fury's proc now hits up to 3 targets instead of 5, and its Damage was slightly reduced because it is an AoE attack.<BR>- Maul's melee debuff effect will now grow with level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any details about this? The animation was already removed, so does it mean they remove the red glow? Tell me this is not this...<BR></DIV>

[Zhonata]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cr0wangel wrote:<BR> <DIV><STRONG>Berserker changes:<BR></STRONG>- Furious Rush now does crushing damage.<BR><STRONG>- The Berserk effect no longer plays an animation when triggered.</STRONG><BR>- Wall of Fury now costs less power and boosts physical resistances instead of avoidance. The ability now triggers when attacks are made, and it will trigger more often.<BR>- Battle Chant now has a chance to trigger Berserk when a target dies; it now procs Berserk half as often across the entire group as the single-target version does for the Berserker.<BR>- The reuse timer of Press was reduced from 30 seconds to 20 seconds.<BR>- .<FONT color=#ff3300>Fury's proc now hits up to 3 targets instead of 5, and its Damage was slightly reduced because it is an AoE attack</FONT><BR>- Maul's melee debuff effect will now grow with level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any details about this? The animation was already removed, so does it mean they remove the red glow? Tell me this is not this...<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I would be less worried about a glamor effect and more worried about how our burst damage just got nerfed.</P> <P>I assum that Fury's refer to Unbridled Fury. They just made it to where it only hit 3 targets and does less damage.......  This is one of our primarry means of gaining aggro back. It will be intresting to see how it works. THey lowere our offense and dont increase our other aggro abilties any farther.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>"- Battle Chant now has a chance to trigger Berserk when a target dies; it now procs Berserk half as often across the entire group as the single-target version does for the Berserker."</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>First of all Beserking after the target is already dead is kinda useless......</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Can someone explain this one. Does this mean they just lowered our offensive stances damage output and number of procs. Then made it to where both our beserkering abilties procs less. If this is the cause they were seriously out nerf our aggro control. They took away Furies abilty to proc 2 more times it doesnt do as much damage and beserk wont proc as much. </FONT></P> <P>We will see what the outcome is, but i see this being a serious problem.<BR></P>

[Triste-Lune]

the reduce number of dmg and target our offensive stance does worries me a lot. when taking i m always using it since it s the only way to keep proper aggro. since LU13 we have only been "nerfed" or adjust to lower damage output : rampage nerfage. now our offesinve stance <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> that skill would have needed an increase probability to proc because the 10% chance to proc isnt really close to the 10% stated (or i m just being really unlucky with procs).As for going berserk once the target is dead.... i dont see how this can be of any use and the proc probabiliti will proc half as often...well i guess we ll just have to see how things work once LU16 is released.sorry for my bad grammar i m not from an english speacking country

[Donners]

<P>Hahaha god...first they give us the weakest taunts of all fighters and say : '' Zerkers hold the aggro with their dps''</P> <P>And now they nerf our dps again.</P> <P>Ah well Vanguard is going to enter Beta 1 ...so Sony you will get what ya deserve. =)</P>

[Rousso]

<P>Wow...nerfed AGAIN? And with plate tanks already reeling from the change that has made mitigation far less effective then avoidance? And check this out. <EM>Wall of Fury now costs less power and <STRONG>boosts physical resistances instead of avoidance.</STRONG></EM> I assume that means they are giving us more of that near worthless mitigation and taking away more of our avoidance.</P> <P>Heh, figures. Guardians are practically worthless now - mitigation has been made totally ineffective, their taunts are resisted, and they do no DPS. Rather than fix the guardians, SOE apparently decided to make 'zerkers worthless too. This is surely a GREAT time to be a bruiser. The goal seems to be to make the guardian class appealing again by making the other plate tank class even worse.</P> <P>I hope this does not work out the way it looks. I can't believe SOE is nerfing our damage given the incredible imbalance that already exists between us and the bruisers/monks.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[cr0wangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote: <P>I assum that Fury's refer to Unbridled Fury. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>We have a stance called Fury at level 22, I think if they were talking about Unbridled Fury they would have wrote Unbridled Fury. </DIV>

[Darkd]

This is just another reason why I am glad I retired my Zerker and started my Swashy.

[MillsFairchild]

I would imagine the change to our group berserk will HELP with aggro control, since your groupmates will be generating less aggro. <div></div>

[cr0wangel]

But anyway, my post was about the animation, can anyone put some light on this please and tell me what was removed? Thank you.

[KFizzle]

<DIV>Is SOE TRYING To kill online games? Is that their underlying goal, to get as much money out of us in a set amount of time, then drive everyone away?<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See: Planetside - BFR's</DIV> <DIV>         Galaxies - Their new Jedi update stuff</DIV> <DIV>         EQ2 LU13 and subsequent crapping on Tanks (in specific the Berserker)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well I'm not 'leaving' yet ... but jesus they are not making me happy about staying, I can maintain agro ONLY while burning mana like a sieve with my DPS...and i have most taunts at adept 3, use my Offending Defense and everything and jesus i still lose agro to DPS classes a couple levels below me.</DIV>

[Lild]

<DIV>Do all the doomcallers really need to come out every time the work Berserker is in the patch notes? Answer the OP's question or make your own thread so we can ignore this pointless negative feedback.</DIV>

[Pin StNeedl]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cr0wangel wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>We have a stance called Fury at level 22, I think if they were talking about Unbridled Fury they would have wrote Unbridled Fury. <BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>No, they mean the whole Fury line.... Fury, Greater Fury and Unbridled Fury.</DIV> <DIV>They have done that for all adjusted spell lines (just give the name of the first one in the line).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've been expecting a reduction to damage on the offensive stance ever since the changes. The proc on the stance provides me with more damage than any other Berserker skill. However, even if the damage reduction to this skill is substantial, it's likely to be around 1-2% total dps reduction for us on single targets, and maybe 2-3% on larger AoE encounters. This will then be offset by the changes to target restrictions on other AoE skills. I'm really not worried.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the other changes, they've further boosted the Berserker's tanking by giving us another short-duration mitigation (self) buff (edit: Berserkers and Guardians now both have 2). The additional effect on Wall of **** is still going to be fairly useless (although a chance to snare a mob that's on a group member is nicer than a chance to snare one that's on yourself when you're snared yourself).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Battle Chant changes are a reduction to our group berserk buffing. The addition of berserk-on-target-death is of very marginal usefulness.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hopefully the debuff on the Maul line will be nicer now (Unyielding Battering debuffing 8 skill is disappointing at the moment).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To answer Alak's original question on animation removal... I believe they only removed the animation from 1 case before, and have removed it in the rest now, but it doesn't bother me much whatever it means :p</DIV><p>Message Edited by Pin StNeedles on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:49 PM</span>

[Zhonata]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lildoc wrote:<BR> <DIV>Do all the doomcallers really need to come out every time the work Berserker is in the patch notes? Answer the OP's question or make your own thread so we can ignore this pointless negative feedback.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>First of all the word beserker hasnt even been mentioned in the 2 patches. Secound of all what positive feedback can we possibly have to them nerfing us AGAIN. LU13 (<FONT color=#ff3300>MAJORLY NERFED</FONT>), LU14 (<FONT color=#ffff00>NO CHANGES</FONT>), LU15 (<FONT color=#ffff00>STUPID CHANGES</FONT>),LU16 (<FONT color=#ff3300>NERFED</FONT>). I mean after LU13 i think our class was seriously nerfed, but not broken. I jsut started to like my beserker again and in my opinion our class was perfectly fine our lacking in taunts was made up by our damage and procs. Now they nerf our damage and proc rates. All i can say is that this is either going to put as on the perfectly balanced line or break us in terms of aggro control. With SOE' track record of fixing their mess up im will be gone or playing on my ranger, cause im not going to wait 2-3 months for them to fix it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottum line. If you keep screwing up and then keep ignoring us, people are going to have less and less confidence in your judgement an abilty to do thing right. The lead to negativity and mistrust. Which lead to this exact post. If SOE would have fixed their mistakes within the first moth or used the test server before LU13 ever came out and everything was as it should be they wouldnt be getting this negativity towards their "Quick Fixes". </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is hwo i percieve test bein used. Dev's come up with idea it is made reality. In their mind this will fix things. IT is put on test. 3-8 days later it goes live. What is the point of pointing it on test. 3-8 days of testing and no time for changes....... POint of test is to TEST listen for feedback and make appropriate changes. SOE truly doesnt grasp this concept which is why we get these broken archtypes, tons of ingame bugs (casue their wil always be afew), broken quests, armor taht loosk the same threw tiers, over powered raids, regualr mobs droping fabled, raid mobs droping commons, the list goes on and on and on and on and on........</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Funniest of all I didnt see the word <STRONG>BRUISER</STRONG> at all in that specific update / <STRONG>NERF</STRONG>.</DIV>

[Lild]

<DIV>Read the OP again, I think you will find the word Berserker in there at least once. The bottom line is this is a MMOG, they are ever changing and if you cannot deal with and adapt to change then you are not going to be happy. Any change SOE makes, someone will take it in a negative sense and cry nerf. Happens every time. Alot of times, like now, people cry like its going to be the end of the world. It won't be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Learn to be flexible and I think you'll find you will enjoy the game alot more. Crying that the sky is falling before something even goes live is a bit pointless. To date many things have been rebalanced, fixed, or in one case totally revamped (the combat revamp) very little, if not nothing at all, has been 'broken'. Neither I nor anyone else can force you to take change in a positive light, only you can do that. You can also take any change and put it in a negative light. The only thing you accomplish by doing this is making yourself, and sometimes those around you, unhappy.</DIV>

[Pin StNeedl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lildoc wrote:<BR> <DIV>Read the OP again, I think you will find the word Berserker in there at least once. The bottom line is this is a MMOG, they are ever changing and if you cannot deal with and adapt to change then you are not going to be happy. Any change SOE makes, someone will take it in a negative sense and cry nerf. Happens every time. Alot of times, like now, people cry like its going to be the end of the world. It won't be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Learn to be flexible and I think you'll find you will enjoy the game alot more. Crying that the sky is falling before something even goes live is a bit pointless. To date many things have been rebalanced, fixed, or in one case totally revamped (the combat revamp) very little, if not nothing at all, has been 'broken'. Neither I nor anyone else can force you to take change in a positive light, only you can do that. You can also take any change and put it in a negative light. The only thing you accomplish by doing this is making yourself, and sometimes those around you, unhappy.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Hear hear.</P> <P> </P> <P>Besides... Berserkers were nerfed in LU13? Could have fooled me.</P>

[Exmortis_MT]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lildoc wrote:<BR> <DIV>Read the OP again, I think you will find the word Berserker in there at least once. The bottom line is this is a MMOG, they are ever changing and if you cannot deal with and adapt to change then you are not going to be happy. Any change SOE makes, someone will take it in a negative sense and cry nerf. Happens every time. Alot of times, like now, people cry like its going to be the end of the world. It won't be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Learn to be flexible and I think you'll find you will enjoy the game alot more. Crying that the sky is falling before something even goes live is a bit pointless. To date many things have been rebalanced, fixed, or in one case totally revamped (the combat revamp) very little, if not nothing at all, has been 'broken'. Neither I nor anyone else can force you to take change in a positive light, only you can do that. You can also take any change and put it in a negative light. The only thing you accomplish by doing this is making yourself, and sometimes those around you, unhappy.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>and intelligence shocks the room silent.  Very well said, grounds us all back to earth.  </P> <P>I am new to the zerker class, restarted with friends and they needed a tank, already did the Sk thing and we were doing qeynos this time, so decided I'd give zerker a try.  So far I am haven fun, and in the end, isnt that all that matters?  The hell with updates, the hell with DPS, the hell with what everyone else has.</P> <P>Just log in and play.</P>

[KFizzle]

<DIV>I simply didnt respond because i'm disgusted. The whole "Its not so bad" thing can only go so far. We were nerfed in LU 13 if you wanna believe it or not, it wasnt the end of the world and for the most part i've been able to deal (although if it wasnt for my having Cobalt T6 gear now and if i had regular indium armor and no adept 3's or anything i probably would be screwed). I have been able to maintain a bit of an ability to solo things ... Yellow and Orange for the most part are out of the question, but whatever.</DIV> <P>Now the thing we do the best right now, AOE Melee stuff...is being limited and reduced in damage? Whats next, Slaughter only effects targets infront of you and the Berserker Assault stuff is a single target attack?</P> <P>Call me a doomsayer whatever, i know i'm not alone, i'm sick of having to 'deal with it.' I will for a little while longer simply because i like the people i play with in my guild ... So until theres a 'viable alternative' that me and some of my 'mates' can go to i'm probably sticking it out.</P> <P>Here's to hoping i get picked for the Vanguard SOH Beta. Maybe they'll do the same thing or whatever, but if they do at least it will be my first experiance with them, unlike this my third straight in the 'MMO World' under Sony. (See: Planetside and Galaxies)</P> <DIV>Oh and I dont expect them to give a crap about my opinion or my monthly fee's ... because they havent before, why start now?<BR></DIV>

[Zhonata]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lildoc wrote:<BR> <DIV>Read the OP again, I think you will find the word Berserker in there at least once. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Beserker being mentioned had nothing to do with the post it had to do with updates. In LU14/LU15 In terms of class adjustments we were not mentioned at all.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The bottom line is this is a MMOG, they are ever changing and if you cannot deal with and adapt to change then you are not going to be happy. </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Yeah they change, but for better worst in my problem. I had hard tiem adjust to the LU13 Revamp and finally am starting to enjoy my beserker again to have them nerf us again</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Any change SOE makes, someone will take it in a negative sense and cry nerf. Happens every time. Alot of times, like now, people cry like its going to be the end of the world. It won't be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>How can you  not take this is a negative light..... .They nerfed us... I dont see a purpose in it and from my opinion it will probably kill our taunting / offensive aggro control balance , but as i said we will see.</FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Learn to be flexible and I think you'll find you will enjoy the game alot more. Crying that the sky is falling before something even goes live is a bit pointless. To date many things have been rebalanced, fixed, or in one case totally revamped (the combat revamp) very little, if not nothing at all, has been 'broken'. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Broken i guess is taken as harsh word. Lets try incomplete. Not finished. These things as i said shouldnt happen life they should be fixed in test prior to ever hitting the mainstream. Guardians are incomplete, Assasins incomplete....</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Neither I nor anyone else can force you to take change in a positive light, only you can do that. You can also take any change and put it in a negative light. The only thing you accomplish by doing this is making yourself, and sometimes those around you, unhappy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9933>Yes, this is true no one can make me be positive. How can i take my class being nerfed in a positive light if i dont agree with it. I mean i guess i could just go," O yeah i guess this character i have worked  on for 9 months is now a hassle to play, but hey who cares." Like i said we will see, but from my opinion our class within itself was balanced to do its job and i think this will unbalance it. The change isnt what makes me mad. The fact that is could unbalance our aggro managment combined with SOE's track record for fixing things makes me mad. If i was confident that they tested it appropriatly and if something did screw up they would fix it right away then i wouldnt have as big a problem with it. SOE track record is what spawns this attitude not my intent to be unhappy with everything.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>How can you look at us pre LU13 and post LU13 and not see us getting nerfed. We had tanking, MAjor aggro control (far beyond what we have now and way above guardians), DPS, Better speed buffs, and better utilities and higher damaging attacks. Rampage got nerfed. LOL granted i know we need to be nerfed, but to sit there and say we didnt get nerfed is denile. After playign my chacter i have come to enjoy him a great deal i actually find it just as fun to play pre LU13 as it is to play now.  To say we didnt get nerfed tho....</P> <P>We will see what these changes bring to the table next week and I hope to god that my pesamistic attitude is wrong. Perhaps then i can start regaining a little trust with SOE's judgement. Here to hopeing....</P> <P><BR> </P>

[KFizzle]

<DIV>Zhonata ... Despite the spelling from your posts which absolutely hurts my eyes, I must say your thoughts echo my own quite absolutely. We might not be 'useless' but we are far from the same creature. I still have fun playing my character but not nearly as much. Nor am I as 'useful' in groups. The thing I am the most useful at when not tanking, is the DPS I provide in 'AOE' Situations. If they start reducing that, Well goodie what's left for us to provide? In ANY Group with a guardian we're always looked at as inferior tanks, the way Paladins generate hate now with their Amends thing is far better'n us, Try and pull agro from a Pally without using Rescue (If they are tanking), I dare you. I've done it but it's harder than pulling agro off ANY OTHER Tank i've ever grouped with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To simply say we're just as good is rediculas. We might have needed 'some nerfing' but the continued nerfing is rediculas. Our 'utility' is totally pathetic compared to other tanks (cept Guardians who really need to get something cool...maybe give em some kinda evac or more/better taunts). Whatever. I'm through responding on this thread, I have to do work and I want to not think about the crap that gets shoveled our way. </DIV>

[Zhonata]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> kfizzle wrote:<BR> <DIV>Zhonata ... Despite the spelling from your posts which absolutely hurts my eyes,</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I can spell, I just chose not too. LOL. Let me guess you work in some field having to do with literature. My college proffesor gets on to me all the time for me slacking of in nonformal writing like these forums or e-mails. lol. Good thing they cant grade me on them.</DIV>

[einar4]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cr0wangel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote: <P>I assum that Fury's refer to Unbridled Fury. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>We have a stance called Fury at level 22, I think if they were talking about Unbridled Fury they would have wrote Unbridled Fury. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR> </P> <P> They made a post a little afterwards that said affected arts and spell changes refer to all in the line.   So with Fury it would be all the arts in the Fury line. </P> <P> yay.  </P> <P> Well, its still on test.  I wish there were a way to copy my character over to test, I simply havent the time to level up a new guy there.  Its odd, since they claim they want people to test. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by einar438 on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:57 PM</span>

[Styk]

<P>Yall do understand that with them setting the max PBae targets to 8 they are nerfing Open Wounds and our 52 PBae taunt INSOLENT GIBE as well right? Way to phukin go SoE , [Removed for Content] are you think first resisted taunts now an outright nerf to one of our AE' taunts ? </P> <P>SCREW YOU SOE AND THE HORSE YOU RIDE ON, CRAP RAID CONTENT AND CONSTANT SCREWING UP OF CLASSES!</P>

[FlameingInfer]

<DIV>I was fine before LU13,  well I wasn't happy with everyone always chooseing Guardians as a tank,  we had much better aggro control and some utility, that was the only thing going for us then.  Now we have nothing going for us.  No one wants a Zerker in their group anymore.  We have no utility at all, no one wants to be able to go berserk, and the stupid mini heal thing we have is useless.  We have no aggro management at all now.  I for one am have gotten very board in the past 3 weeks. there is 2 more months on my gamecard.  Once that is gone I may just try out City of Villains.  I hear its pretty fun. /shrug maybe I'm just burnt out on everyone looking the same, not being able to get a group and haveing crappy solo content (I hate to solo anyway) and DOF is not as cool as all the hype said it was  /sigh ohhwell Sony has me for 2 more months.</DIV>

[Pin StNeedl]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR> <P>Yall do understand that with them setting the max PBae targets to 8 they are nerfing Open Wounds and our 52 PBae taunt INSOLENT GIBE as well right? Way to phukin go SoE , [Removed for Content] are you think first resisted taunts now an outright nerf to one of our AE' taunts ? </P> <P>SCREW YOU SOE AND THE HORSE YOU RIDE ON, CRAP RAID CONTENT AND CONSTANT SCREWING UP OF CLASSES!<BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Open Wounds currently has a max of 4 targets (it hits the main target twice, and up to 3 additional targets). If it's changed to 8, that's a nice upgrade.</P> <P>It's not possible to verify what the maximum number of targets Insolent Gibe has at the moment.</P></DIV>

[Styk]

<DIV>Open Wounds DOES NOT HAVE A MAX OF 4 TARGETS... you can hit up to 6 encounters if they are infront of you and in melee range... ( sometimes even from behind if they are right on you ) get your facts str8</DIV>

[Pin StNeedl]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR> <DIV>Open Wounds DOES NOT HAVE A MAX OF 4 TARGETS... you can hit up to 6 encounters if they are infront of you and in melee range... ( sometimes even from behind if they are right on you ) get your facts str8</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P>Feel free to give proof of it hitting 6 different mobs with 1 swing.</P> <P>Open Wounds hits a maximum of 5 times. Twice on the mob you have targetted and once more on up to 3 other mobs. There is no restriction on the what angle it will hit, only on range. Get your facts straight.</P>

[Guzz_Deaths_Door_EF]

<DIV>increases attack speed of caster by 45%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>caster has a 100% chance of having their primary weapon 's autoattack  affect multiple targets they are facing, who are within melee range</DIV>

[uux]

Open Wounds certainly does not hit the targetted mob more than once.   You may see two hits, but one is your autoattack.   There may even be a riposte thrown in.  As for a limit, I can't say that I have payed close enough attention. Concerning aggro management and our offensive stance, my take is the change won't hurt a thing.  Why?  Try playing in your defensive stance.  There is no proc, and your offense takes a penalty.  Do you have trouble holding aggro in this stance?  You still have multiple aoe attacks available.  Two of which have aggro generating side effects (stun and throwback).  You have the Hold the Line series, and an aoe snare.  If everyone in your group plays as they should be, you won't have any trouble keeping aggro. <div></div>

[Zhonata]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uux wrote:<BR>Open Wounds certainly does not hit the targetted mob more than once.   You may see two hits, but one is your autoattack.   There may even be a riposte thrown in.  As for a limit, I can't say that I have payed close enough attention.<BR><BR>Concerning aggro management and our offensive stance, my take is the change won't hurt a thing.  Why?  <FONT color=#ffff00>Try playing in your defensive stance.  There is no proc, and your offense takes a penalty.  Do you have trouble holding aggro in this stance?</FONT>  You still have multiple aoe attacks available.  Two of which have aggro generating side effects (stun and throwback).  You have the Hold the Line series, and an aoe snare.  If everyone in your group plays as they should be, you won't have any trouble keeping aggro.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Um yes we do. Defensive stance is the worst stance you can possibly be in for aggro contro. WE get 2 cycling taunts 1 aoe and insolent gibe. Our aoe attack certainly dont make up for the lack off offense and procs...... This has already been discussed and debate on several threads. Beserkers primarly tank in offensive or no mode leaving defensive mode as a last resort to avoid death.</DIV>

[Pin StNeedl]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uux wrote:<BR>Open Wounds certainly does not hit the targetted mob more than once.   You may see two hits, but one is your autoattack.   There may even be a riposte thrown in.  As for a limit, I can't say that I have payed close enough attention.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe I wasn't clear enough.... With Open Wounds running, everytime you autoattack a mob, you will then get an extra attack which hits up to 4 targets (basically an AoE autoattack), with 1 of those targets always being your current target. Hence you autoattack your main target twice, then up to 3 other targets once each.<BR>

[uux]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Zhonata wrote:<blockquote>Um yes we do. Defensive stance is the worst stance you can possibly be in for aggro contro. WE get 2 cycling taunts 1 aoe and insolent gibe. Our aoe attack certainly dont make up for the lack off offense and procs...... This has already been discussed and debate on several threads. Beserkers primarly tank in offensive or no mode leaving defensive mode as a last resort to avoid death.</blockquote><hr></blockquote>Well, sure it's more easy to hold aggro when you're doing more damage.   Yet, your defensive stance is sometimes required in tough spots.   Even no stance removes the offensive proc.  My point is, you are able to play without it, so having it reduced will not hurt as much as you think.  I'm not saying the aoe's will make up for a skill being reduced or removed, I'm simply stating that they are enough.  In fact, as Pins pointed out, this would increase the effectiveness of Open Wounds, and if I'm not mistaken, Berserker Rush as well.   Aggro control being dependent on a 10% probability of proc going off and then followed by the probability of actually landing a hit doesn't seem like aggro control at all. EDIT: Oh, and you're missing a taunt in your list, plus a reactive that has a aoe taunt effect.</span><span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by uux on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:54 AM</span>

[Zhonata]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uux wrote:<BR> <SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, sure it's more easy to hold aggro when you're doing more damage.   Yet, your defensive stance is sometimes required in tough spots.   Even no stance removes the offensive proc.  My point is, you are able to play without it, so having it reduced will not hurt as much as you think.  I'm not saying the aoe's will make up for a skill being reduced or removed, I'm simply stating that they are enough.  In fact, as Pins pointed out, this would increase the effectiveness of Open Wounds, and if I'm not mistaken, Berserker Rush as well.   Aggro control being dependent on a 10% probability of proc going off and then followed by the probability of actually landing a hit doesn't seem like aggro control at all.<BR></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I guess we are differing in opinions on this. I have everything except for a couplbe ca abilty that arnt adept 3. I can hold aggro defense for a short while, but with any amount of dps in the group it is lost almost every encounter. Offensive stance is where beserker were ment to tank that is wher we are equal with the otehr classes in aggro control. No stance we lose our procs, but we dont have our stats nerfed so we still pull off a decent damage cause our abiltys still hit high compared to the defense stance. Defense stance is last resort group is going to die if i dont switch. Purly for self preservation not for aggro control at all. Hopefully by the time you switch to this mode you have enough aggro thta you stay above dps.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=16682" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=16682</A></P> <P>Check out this thread. Our offesnive stance as pointed out in that post accoutns for 15% of our total damage. With these reduction we will be losing close to +6% of total damage over time. Not to mention the 2+ procs we lose. So we lose aggro from the less damage and from the less procs we will be hitting. that sounds like it is going to effect us. We will see.<BR></P>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pin StNeedles wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uux wrote:<BR>Open Wounds certainly does not hit the targetted mob more than once.   You may see two hits, but one is your autoattack.   There may even be a riposte thrown in.  As for a limit, I can't say that I have payed close enough attention.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Maybe I wasn't clear enough.... With Open Wounds running, everytime you autoattack a mob, you will then get an extra attack which hits up to 4 targets (basically an AoE autoattack), with 1 of those targets always being your current target. Hence you autoattack your main target twice, then up to 3 other targets once each.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Umm no, like the poster posted underneath you asking for confirmation on how it works seeing you are a lvl 60 Berserker yourself :</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Gumse wrote :</P> <DIV>increases attack speed of caster by 45%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>caster has a 100% chance of having their primary weapon 's autoattack  affect multiple targets they are facing, who are within melee range</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats exactally what it does. Hit Rampage and Open Wounds, and watch rampage proc on each and every mob in front of you providing there in melee range and reguardless of if there in the same encounter, then watch how many mobs then get hit with Unbrildled Fury as well...........and people wonder why Fury line is getting nerfed :smileyindifferent:</DIV>

[Pin StNeedl]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <DIV>Thats exactally what it does. Hit Rampage and Open Wounds, and watch rampage proc on each and every mob in front of you providing there in melee range and reguardless of if there in the same encounter, then watch how many mobs then get hit with Unbrildled Fury as well...........and people wonder why Fury line is getting nerfed :smileyindifferent:</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>And seeing as though you're still only 54 and don't have the skill, you're not qualified to describe "exactly what it does".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Using Rampage with Open Wounds doesn't make a Rampage proc affect multiple encounters, it merely means you use up multiple Rampage procs from the same swing (5 autoswing hits, firing 5 of the 10 available Rampage procs, each one affecting a single encounter). Similarly with Unbridled Fury, each proc remains targetted at a single encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You don't gain any damage by combining Rampage with Open Wounds versus using them seperately (actually, you'll invariably do less total damage over a 3 minute period if you use them together, rather than seperately).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for what Gumse wrote... That's the in-game description of the spell, which is a) vague in that "multiple" doesn't tell you how many targets, and b) incorrect in that you can hit mobs behind you with it.</DIV>

[uux]

<span><blockquote><hr>Zhonata wrote:<div></div><blockquote><span> </span><span></span> </blockquote>I guess we are differing in opinions on this. I have everything except for a couplbe ca abilty that arnt adept 3. I can hold aggro defense for a short while, but with any amount of dps in the group it is lost almost every encounter. Offensive stance is where beserker were ment to tank that is wher we are equal with the otehr classes in aggro control. No stance we lose our procs, but we dont have our stats nerfed so we still pull off a decent damage cause our abiltys still hit high compared to the defense stance. Defense stance is last resort group is going to die if i dont switch. Purly for self preservation not for aggro control at all. Hopefully by the time you switch to this mode you have enough aggro thta you stay above dps. <p><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=16682" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=16682</a></p> <p>Check out this thread. Our offesnive stance as pointed out in that post accoutns for 15% of our total damage. With these reduction we will be losing close to +6% of total damage over time. Not to mention the 2+ procs we lose. So we lose aggro from the less damage and from the less procs we will be hitting. that sounds like it is going to effect us. We will see.</p><hr></blockquote> I agree that it's a nerf.  No doubt about it.  I just don't agree that it's the end of our aggro control.  It's hard to estimate how much the numbers posted in that thread would change after the patch.  We have no idea with any amount of certainty how many mobs Furious Assault hit each time it triggered.  He did post that they were multi-mob encounters, but still.  Did it hit 5 mobs everytime at 100% success rate?  We know the damage is being reduced and the number of mobs being effected is being reduced.  That is about all we know unless someone is on the test server and can provide a comparison.</span><div></div>

[Pin StNeedl]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> uux wrote: <P><SPAN>We have no idea with any amount of certainty how many mobs Furious Assault hit each time it triggered.  He did post that they were multi-mob encounters, but still.  Did it hit 5 mobs everytime at 100% success rate?  We know the damage is being reduced and the number of mobs being effected is being reduced.  That is about all we know unless someone is on the test server and can provide a comparison.</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>The conditions that were parsed there were absolutely optimal for AoE damage. The encounters were virtually all 4-8 ^^ and ^^^ mobs with a few tough single-target X2/4s. I also have Unbridled Fury at Master I, so you'd be very hard-pressed to get a number above 15%. In other situations, I'd expect it to contribute 5-10% of damage. And likewise, I'm reserving judgement until I see the reduced numbers and the effects of other AoE changes.</DIV>

[Buggrit]

<span> <span><blockquote><hr>Pin StNeedles wrote:<blockquote> <hr> -Aonein- wrote: <div></div> <div>Thats exactally what it does. Hit Rampage and Open Wounds, and watch rampage proc on each and every mob in front of you providing there in melee range and reguardless of if there in the same encounter, then watch how many mobs then get hit with Unbrildled Fury as well...........and people wonder why Fury line is getting nerfed :smileyindifferent:</div> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>And seeing as though you're still only 54 and don't have the skill, you're not qualified to describe "exactly what it does".</div> so in other words because hes right and you can't think of an argument to counter it you have to attack his level ? because its the only thing you can do?<hr></blockquote></span></span><div></div>

[Pin StNeedl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> <P>Buggrit wrote:</P> <P><SPAN><SPAN><BR>so in other words because hes right and you can't think of an argument to counter it you have to attack his level ? because its the only thing you can do?</SPAN></SPAN></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm not attacking his level. I'm telling him that because he doesn't have the skill yet, he's not the best-qualified person to say "exactly how it works".</P> <P> </P> <P>So, for his benefit, here is <A href="http://www.btinternet.com/~challand/openwounds.avi" target=_blank>Open Wounds in action</A> (very simple test that shows a) hitting a maximum of 5 times per swing (4 if the target mob dies on the first hit), and b) hitting mobs behind).</P> <P>(edit: XVid codec)</P><p>Message Edited by Pin StNeedles on <span class=date_text>11-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:34 PM</span>

[Tudd]

<span><blockquote><hr>Pin StNeedles wrote:<blockquote> <hr> -Aonein- wrote: <div></div> <div>Thats exactally what it does. Hit Rampage and Open Wounds, and watch rampage proc on each and every mob in front of you providing there in melee range and reguardless of if there in the same encounter, then watch how many mobs then get hit with Unbrildled Fury as well...........and people wonder why Fury line is getting nerfed :smileyindifferent:</div> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>And seeing as though you're still only 54 and don't have the skill, you're not qualified to describe "exactly what it does".</div> <div> </div> <div>Using Rampage with Open Wounds doesn't make a Rampage proc affect multiple encounters, it merely means you use up multiple Rampage procs from the same swing (5 autoswing hits, firing 5 of the 10 available Rampage procs, each one affecting a single encounter). Similarly with Unbridled Fury, each proc remains targetted at a single encounter.</div> <div> </div> <div>You don't gain any damage by combining Rampage with Open Wounds versus using them seperately (actually, you'll invariably do less total damage over a 3 minute period if you use them together, rather than seperately).</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>As for what Gumse wrote... That's the in-game description of the spell, which is a) vague in that "multiple" doesn't tell you how many targets, and b) incorrect in that you can hit mobs behind you with it.</div><hr></blockquote>You've said the same thing as Aonein, you just said it differently. Because all our CA's are now attacks rather than DD's, every attack has a chance to proc. Which means that Rampage and Open Wounds have a chance to proc Fury. Since each proc is tied to the swing, it is possible for Fury to go off multiple times in the same melee round against the same encounter. It's because of this that I believe Fury is being scaled down. In it's present form, Fury combined with Rampage/Open Wound can allow a Zerker to take out an entire encounter within a couple seconds if the RNG is good to you and you have an encounter with more than two mobs in it. In fact, because of the way the CA's interact with each other, you actually have a better chance of killing an encounter that has, for example, 5 no arrow mobs then an encounter that has 3 or 4 no arrow mobs. The nerf I believe is to limit this scaling effect.</span><div></div>

[Pin StNeedl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tuddar wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>You've said the same thing as Aonein, you just said it differently.<BR><BR>Because all our CA's are now attacks rather than DD's, every attack has a chance to proc. Which means that Rampage and Open Wounds have a chance to proc Fury. Since each proc is tied to the swing, it is possible for Fury to go off multiple times in the same melee round against the same encounter.<BR><BR>It's because of this that I believe Fury is being scaled down. In it's present form, Fury combined with Rampage/Open Wound can allow a Zerker to take out an entire encounter within a couple seconds if the RNG is good to you and you have an encounter with more than two mobs in it. In fact, because of the way the CA's interact with each other, you actually have a better chance of killing an encounter that has, for example, 5 no arrow mobs then an encounter that has 3 or 4 no arrow mobs.<BR><BR>The nerf I believe is to limit this scaling effect.</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I didn't say the same thing as Aonein. His post implied that using Rampage and Open Wounds together, when facing multiple encounters, would result in increased damage from Ramage and Fury proccing across all encounters and thus scaling massively when you have multiple encounters. This does not happen - you just spread the Rampage procs out, some affecting 1 encounter, some affecting another, thus your damage is divided between multiple encounters, rather than scaled. </P> <P>Whereas you are talking about using the skills on a single encounter, which is different, and I agree with you.</P>

[Tudd]

<span><blockquote><hr>Pin StNeedles wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Tuddar wrote:<span>You've said the same thing as Aonein, you just said it differently.Because all our CA's are now attacks rather than DD's, every attack has a chance to proc. Which means that Rampage and Open Wounds have a chance to proc Fury. Since each proc is tied to the swing, it is possible for Fury to go off multiple times in the same melee round against the same encounter.It's because of this that I believe Fury is being scaled down. In it's present form, Fury combined with Rampage/Open Wound can allow a Zerker to take out an entire encounter within a couple seconds if the RNG is good to you and you have an encounter with more than two mobs in it. In fact, because of the way the CA's interact with each other, you actually have a better chance of killing an encounter that has, for example, 5 no arrow mobs then an encounter that has 3 or 4 no arrow mobs.The nerf I believe is to limit this scaling effect.</span> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I didn't say the same thing as Aonein. His post implied that using Rampage and Open Wounds together, when facing multiple encounters, would result in increased damage from Ramage and Fury proccing across all encounters and thus scaling massively when you have multiple encounters. This does not happen - you just spread the Rampage procs out, some affecting 1 encounter, some affecting another, thus your damage is divided between multiple encounters, rather than scaled. </p> <p>Whereas you are talking about using the skills on a single encounter, which is different, and I agree with you.</p><hr></blockquote>I didn't read his post the same way you did. I took his post simply to say that if you use Open Wounds with Rampage, then Rampage will hit any encounter hit with Open Wounds. Which is true. I didn't take from his post he was implying that the 10 swings would be applied to each encounter and result in any scaling in that regard. You are correct, Rampage gives 10 swings, period, regardless if those ten hits are against mobs in one encounter or in multiple encounters. But to get back onto the track of the thread, my contention is that Fury is being scaled down to due to it being a proc, and how it interacts with Open Wounds/Rampage. Against say an encounter of 5 mobs, with Rampage and Open Wound up at the same time, you are talking about swinging 10 times in a single melee round, with Fury having a chance to proc on each of those swings. Limiting the number of mobs Fury will land on will limit the scaling effect somewhat. </span><div></div>

[Adewale]

<span><blockquote><hr>Zhonata wrote: <blockquote> <hr> kfizzle wrote: <div>Zhonata ... Despite the spelling from your posts which absolutely hurts my eyes,</div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>I can spell, I just chose not too. LOL. Let me guess you work in some field having to do with literature. My college proffesor gets on to me all the time for me slacking of in nonformal writing like these forums or e-mails. lol. Good thing they cant grade me on them.</div><hr></blockquote>Heh, you can't spell without thinking about it or looking it up. You don't just suddenly flip a switch and start spelling like an idiot. You can either spell or you can't. It's not like you're saving a lot of time with all your misspellings, so you must be saving on what little brainpower you have. </span><div></div>

[ligiguinesmule]

<P>ok guys after reading the debate you guys are having i have some points.  #1 you guys are talking about aggro control in exp group-type encounters.  Thats fun and all but once you hit 60 the time for that is over and you have to look at raiding.  With our damage being nerfed, crappy group buffs (no group health buff, crappy 30 second mit buff,  underpowered 55 group health in combat) combined with guardians being much better raid tanks we will have little to no place in a raid, unless of course the guardian calls in sick.  The only thing that keeps us in a raid atm when not tanking is the ability to intercept damage and lead the melee aoe dps groups.  #2 With our aoe damage being nerfed we lose that valuable zerker commodity, along with war call line being nerfed to only give grp members berserk proc when mob dies we can easily be replaced by numerous other classes in raids very easily.  Not to mention theres many other types of tanks in the raids with tons more utility (paladins, bruisers etc).  #3 people keep saying guardians need flavor, they are in need of an upgrade.I truly dont see how this is possible.  They have very good raid buffs (hp and mit i believe) and even though soe states that every tank class will now be better against certain types of mobs guardians are still light years ahead of zerkers when it comes to raid tanking.  More hp by almost 1k and higher mit, better raid grp buffs.  Tell me how they need lovin and we need nerfing?  </P> <P>Why nerf our damage?  People only see when zerkers stack open wounds and rampage and see EXP grp mobs i repeat EXP grp mobs die quickly.  First off, we can only do that every 3 minutes.  Secondly, if a zerker decides to stack those 2 then guess what...our dps sucks without it.  Lower the fury line and it only adds to the demise of this class.  </P> <P>Say all you want how we are good and the changes wont hurt us.  Ive raid tanked for my guild for over a month, waiting on our guardian to hit 60 and guess what,  I'll prolly never be able to tank again and to be honest, since i'm always up for our guild having its best chance to win, I will voluntarily remove myself from raids for the other 20+ classes that are better in raids.</P> <P>Have fun with denial</P> <P>Stink 60 zerker</P> <P>No Debt</P>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tuddar wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pin StNeedles wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tuddar wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>You've said the same thing as Aonein, you just said it differently.<BR><BR>Because all our CA's are now attacks rather than DD's, every attack has a chance to proc. Which means that Rampage and Open Wounds have a chance to proc Fury. Since each proc is tied to the swing, it is possible for Fury to go off multiple times in the same melee round against the same encounter.<BR><BR>It's because of this that I believe Fury is being scaled down. In it's present form, Fury combined with Rampage/Open Wound can allow a Zerker to take out an entire encounter within a couple seconds if the RNG is good to you and you have an encounter with more than two mobs in it. In fact, because of the way the CA's interact with each other, you actually have a better chance of killing an encounter that has, for example, 5 no arrow mobs then an encounter that has 3 or 4 no arrow mobs.<BR><BR>The nerf I believe is to limit this scaling effect.</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I didn't say the same thing as Aonein. His post implied that using Rampage and Open Wounds together, when facing multiple encounters, would result in increased damage from Ramage and Fury proccing across all encounters and thus scaling massively when you have multiple encounters. This does not happen - you just spread the Rampage procs out, some affecting 1 encounter, some affecting another, thus your damage is divided between multiple encounters, rather than scaled. </P> <P>Whereas you are talking about using the skills on a single encounter, which is different, and I agree with you.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I didn't read his post the same way you did. I took his post simply to say that if you use Open Wounds with Rampage, then Rampage will hit any encounter hit with Open Wounds. Which is true. I didn't take from his post he was implying that the 10 swings would be applied to each encounter and result in any scaling in that regard. You are correct, Rampage gives 10 swings, period, regardless if those ten hits are against mobs in one encounter or in multiple encounters.<BR><BR>But to get back onto the track of the thread, my contention is that Fury is being scaled down to due to it being a proc, and how it interacts with Open Wounds/Rampage. Against say an encounter of 5 mobs, with Rampage and Open Wound up at the same time, you are talking about swinging 10 times in a single melee round, with Fury having a chance to proc on each of those swings. Limiting the number of mobs Fury will land on will limit the scaling effect somewhat.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Exactally my point Tuddar, well observed my friend.</P> <P>Pin that video you took proves nothing but you have no idea how to place mobs so that they are all with in a 180 degree frontal arc in front of you.</P> <P>Open wounds will and i have seen this from not only 1 but 2 lvl 60 Berserkers on raids purposely postion multiple encounters for this specific reason, i talk with them in Ventrilo voice chat program while we are raiding.</P> <P>So reguardless of my level, im fully aware of how the skill works, not sure why your so lazy and cant postion the mobs in the 180 degree frontal arc that Open Wounds is intended for, like the video proves, when you fired open wounds you were completely surrounded by mobs with only 4 in front of you at any given time, sometimes even less. Then you all you do is target the next one that is fighting you and procedd to kill it with out trying to even remotely bunch them up in front of you..........:smileyindifferent:</P></DIV>

[Tudd]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>ligiguinesmule wrote: <p>ok guys after reading the debate you guys are having i have some points.  #1 you guys are talking about aggro control in exp group-type encounters.  Thats fun and all but once you hit 60 the time for that is over and you have to look at raiding.  With our damage being nerfed, crappy group buffs (no group health buff, crappy 30 second mit buff,  underpowered 55 group health in combat) combined with guardians being much better raid tanks we will have little to no place in a raid, unless of course the guardian calls in sick.  The only thing that keeps us in a raid atm when not tanking is the ability to intercept damage and lead the melee aoe dps groups.  #2 With our aoe damage being nerfed we lose that valuable zerker commodity, along with war call line being nerfed to only give grp members berserk proc when mob dies we can easily be replaced by numerous other classes in raids very easily.  Not to mention theres many other types of tanks in the raids with tons more utility (paladins, bruisers etc).  #3 people keep saying guardians need flavor, they are in need of an upgrade.I truly dont see how this is possible.  They have very good raid buffs (hp and mit i believe) and even though soe states that every tank class will now be better against certain types of mobs guardians are still light years ahead of zerkers when it comes to raid tanking.  More hp by almost 1k and higher mit, better raid grp buffs.  Tell me how they need lovin and we need nerfing?  </p> <p>Why nerf our damage?  People only see when zerkers stack open wounds and rampage and see EXP grp mobs i repeat EXP grp mobs die quickly.  First off, we can only do that every 3 minutes.  Secondly, if a zerker decides to stack those 2 then guess what...our dps sucks without it.  Lower the fury line and it only adds to the demise of this class.  </p> <p>Say all you want how we are good and the changes wont hurt us.  Ive raid tanked for my guild for over a month, waiting on our guardian to hit 60 and guess what,  I'll prolly never be able to tank again and to be honest, since i'm always up for our guild having its best chance to win, I will voluntarily remove myself from raids for the other 20+ classes that are better in raids.</p> <p>Have fun with denial</p> <p>Stink 60 zerker</p> <p>No Debt</p><hr></blockquote>Dude, as a 60 Zerker I tank all the raids I attend. I think that will change as we do have a 60 guardian and other tanks coming up the ranks fast and other folks start wanting to tank. However, Berserker's are capable of tanking any mob in the game. In addition, Zerker's just plain generate more aggro. And in some situations (actually most) keeping aggro is the key to a win, not absorbing the most damage. If aggro isn't an issue and you need the best mitigation, go with a Guardian. If aggro is an issue, then a Zerker is a better choice. Guardians light years away better at raid tanking? No. Again, it's all situational, with some tank classes being better able to handle certain encounters then others, but most being able to get the job done in most encounters. That crappy 30 second mitigation buff your talking about? Guardians have basically the same thing. </span><span>Zerker and Guardian group mitigation buffs are roughly the same, Guardian of course being a little better. However, each provides additional protection against certain damage types. Zerker's mitigation buff provides additional mitigation against crushing, while Guardians provide additional mitigation against slash and pierce. Guardians </span><span>don't have a permanent "on" group mitigation buff. They do have a group defensive buff that adds a little to the groups avoidance. The mitigation buff they rely on is a self only buff that roots them. Ask any Guardian, their group buffs are crap, because if a Guardian is doing their job, those buffs don't help the group. No group health buff? That 55 HP regen might not seem like much, but over the long run, it saves mana a lot more then an extra 1k tacked on to everyone. Plus 41 HP regen from Boil Blood. Over a minute, that regens 960HP on me. So it's a trade-off of sorts, each has it's advantages and disadvantages. So yeah, Guardians get some buffs that gives them the edge on tanking, rightfully so. But if you compare skills between the two classes, Zerkers come out ahead in both aggro generation capabilities and DPS at the cost of not taking a hit as well. Guardians take hits better, but don't dish out aggro as well and nowhere near our DPS capabilities, which generates additional aggro as well. If your guild bumps you from the MT spot just because they want a Guardian tanking everything, then they are only hurting themselves. Guardians aren't the answer to every tanking situation, and if your guild limits itself in that way, then your chances to win over the long run will go down, not up. As with many things in life, you want to use the *best* tool for the job to have the most favorable outcome. When you need a hammer, using a wrench might not get the job done. Edit: Spelling </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Tuddar on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:15 AM</span>

[ligiguinesmule]

<P>Had a lot to say so couldnt get in with 1 post.  Yes Tuddar we do have dps over guardians, but that little bit of dps isnt gonna be much of anything in a raid, especially once the new changes go into affect.  If we gotta rely on that little bit of aggro caused by our soon to be nerfed dps to make us a viable choice in raids then guess what,   we're screwed.  The biggest thing between guards and zerkers besides the close to 1k extra hp and more mitigation is their avoidance.  It's about 4-5% higher than ours.  So what you're saying is we are viable because we do a little more dps, but have less hp, mit and avoidance.  Sounds like a 2nd rate tank to me.   About the 55 in combat health regen,  I'd take an extra 1k hitpoints any day of the week over that.  Most of the raid mobs in game, its all about the first 10 secs of the fight.  If you cant stabalize it then you wipe.  With the huge aoe and single target nukes of the t6 raid mobs a lot of times its all about having enough hp to sustain a few hits.  Sure on the cakewalk raid mobs we do ok like Lockjaw but the others,  forget it I'll be clearing adds. </P> <P>Our aoe dps doesnt help us in raids where there is 1 mob and no adds either.  It is not substantial enough compared to guards to help us hold hate that much better.   Have you stood next to your guardian and been switched in and out of the mt group?  Check the stats we are inferior, period.  And what happens when you realize you cant tank and your dps gets nerfed? </P> <P>At least i can help clear the out-of-raid trash mobs</P> <P>I have absolutely no problem not being the raid MT.  I spent months not tanking.  My point is if we are bunched along with guardians and arent as good at tanking please soe, give us something thats useful.  Better group buffs would be a nice start,  possibly a better intercept?  Im not sure how they could do it.  After the new combat changes we have no place in a raid.  That is my concern.</P> <p>Message Edited by ligiguinesmule on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:30 AM</span>

[Halc]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uux wrote:<BR>Concerning aggro management and our offensive stance, my take is the change won't hurt a thing.  Why?  Try playing in your defensive stance.  There is no proc, and your offense takes a penalty.  Do you have trouble holding aggro in this stance?  You still have multiple aoe attacks available.  Two of which have aggro generating side effects (stun and throwback).  You have the Hold the Line series, and an aoe snare.  If everyone in your group plays as they should be, you won't have any trouble keeping aggro.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I can honestly say that I never ever use the defensive stance when I am tanking. The hit to our offensive is to great and makes it near impossible to hold agro when you have high DPS classes in the group. Yes, using rampage plus our AoE arts, or open wounds helps a great deal keeping agro in these situations, but rampage and open wounds can only be used every three minutes and using our taunts alone dose not work. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can pull and kill at least 3 groups of cyclops in the Table of Eyes area in a 3 minute time span. That leaves me at least one group that I have no way of generating enough DPS to build hate and keep agro unless I am in my offensive stance. Killing giants is even worse as they are generaly higher level then the cyclops and therfore my taunts are resisted more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not predicting doomsday with this patch. I will adept and overcome to the best of my ability, but I can't honestly say that these changes will not hurt and make agro control much more difficult. The changes made to taunts in LU13 make them to unpredictable when fighting yellow con and higher mobs to rely on them alone. In my opinion they are resisted to much. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One added note, Insolent Gibe is a great addition to our taunt line, but it is on a 3 minute timer also. This is my emergency taunt which I only use when I have a roamer add. I try my hardest not to use it during a regular fight to hold agro because as soon as I do I will need it and it will not be ready. Also it is near usless inside dungeons. I made the mistake of using it in one of the rooms in Clefts and pulled 2 additional groups of mobs right through the walls. Needless to say what the outcome of that fight was.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All in all, I love my zerker. I love our AoE skills. I love being able to kill grouped mobs faster then any other tank. This is our forte. Unfortunatly, Aoe's are the target of another big hit by SoE and it is going to hurt. </DIV>

[Mjollnyr]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Zhonata wrote: <p><font color="#ffffff">Can someone explain this one. Does this mean they just lowered our offensive stances damage output and number of procs. Then made it to where both our beserkering abilties procs less. If this is the cause they were seriously out nerf our aggro control. They took away Furies abilty to proc 2 more times it doesnt do as much damage and beserk wont proc as much. </font></p> <hr></blockquote></span> They are reducing the 20% proc rate on our group berserk buff to 10%, while leaving our self buff alone (remaining at 20%). This shouldn't affect us personally (in theory), it will just reduce the amount our group proc's berserk. Yep, they are nerfing our offensive stance. But if you compare our offensive stance to other fighters offensive stances, ours was so much better. This is balancing it verse other fighter classes. Can't say i'm impressed, but i see why they did it On a side note: <span><blockquote><hr>Pin StNeedles wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> Styker wrote: <div></div> <p>Yall do understand that with them setting the max PBae targets to 8 they are nerfing Open Wounds and our 52 PBae taunt INSOLENT GIBE as well right? Way to phukin go SoE , [Removed for Content] are you think first resisted taunts now an outright nerf to one of our AE' taunts ? </p> <p>SCREW YOU SOE AND THE HORSE YOU RIDE ON, CRAP RAID CONTENT AND CONSTANT SCREWING UP OF CLASSES! </p><hr> <p></p></blockquote> <p>Open Wounds currently has a max of 4 targets (it hits the main target twice, and up to 3 additional targets). If it's changed to 8, that's a nice upgrade.</p> <p>It's not possible to verify what the maximum number of targets Insolent Gibe has at the moment.</p></div><hr></blockquote>Absolutely and 100% correct Pin StNeedles. For the neigh sayers, want to test it? go to majdul, and pull the three groups of solo encounters in the Court of Coins/Golden palace area. Turn off your Fury line, we dont need other AE's confusing the situation, also dont hit rampage.  Turn on Open wounds. You will see five lines of damage even tho your fighting 9 mobs. Now assuming you dont get chain vanquished(read: stunned), you'll be able to drop these nine mobs with open wounds.  Now the neigh sayers are gunna say 'but those mobs are are only in your front arc, you dont hit mobs behind you'. Since you'll be surrounded by the nine mobs, face one try and move around to keep the mobs on your back. They will all get hit. In the end the spell description is wrong.  I know its hard to bear that SoE could actually do something wrong when it comes to pointless spell descriptions, but yes it is wrong.   Those descriptions have nothing to do with the code behind the abilities, they are just quick interpretations of the abilities. If you still dont believe that Open wounds currently has a target limit. You did not test it enough.  I know when i realised it had a max target limit i was [Removed for Content]. I've further gone to do upwards of 1500-2000dps with the current version of open wounds. Cant be that bad then.</span> As for insolent gibe, if its gunna have a max of 8 targets, that disappoints me.  It was an awesome spell while it lasted, and actually gave berserkers a clear role for raid situations. Mulitply encounter agro control. Guess we wait and see wednesday. <div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mjollnyr wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR></SPAN><BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pin StNeedles wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR> <P>Yall do understand that with them setting the max PBae targets to 8 they are nerfing Open Wounds and our 52 PBae taunt INSOLENT GIBE as well right? Way to phukin go SoE , [Removed for Content] are you think first resisted taunts now an outright nerf to one of our AE' taunts ? </P> <P>SCREW YOU SOE AND THE HORSE YOU RIDE ON, CRAP RAID CONTENT AND CONSTANT SCREWING UP OF CLASSES!<BR></P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Open Wounds currently has a max of 4 targets (it hits the main target twice, and up to 3 additional targets). If it's changed to 8, that's a nice upgrade.</P> <P>It's not possible to verify what the maximum number of targets Insolent Gibe has at the moment.</P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Absolutely and 100% correct Pin StNeedles.<BR><BR>For the neigh sayers, want to test it? go to majdul, and pull the three groups of solo encounters in the Court of Coins/Golden palace area. Turn off your Fury line, we dont need other AE's confusing the situation, also dont hit rampage.  Turn on Open wounds. You will see five lines of damage even tho your fighting 9 mobs. Now assuming you dont get chain vanquished(read: stunned), you'll be able to drop these nine mobs with open wounds.  Now the neigh sayers are gunna say 'but those mobs are are only in your front arc, you dont hit mobs behind you'. Since you'll be surrounded by the nine mobs, face one try and move around to keep the mobs on your back. They will all get hit.<BR><BR>In the end the spell description is wrong.  I know its hard to bear that SoE could actually do something wrong when it comes to pointless spell descriptions, but yes it is wrong.   Those descriptions have nothing to do with the code behind the abilities, they are just quick interpretations of the abilities.<BR><BR>If you still dont believe that Open wounds currently has a target limit. You did not test it enough.  I know when i realised it had a max target limit i was [Removed for Content]. I've further gone to do upwards of 1500-2000dps with the current version of open wounds. Cant be that bad then.<BR></SPAN><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So basically somewhere along the line they have nerfed it to hit a certain number of targets and in doing so have bugged the spell so it acually effects all mobs around you instead of the 180 degree frontal arc postion which it was doing a few months ago.</P> <P>Is it still even hitting mobs outside the encounter itself still or is it encounter only and working like Rampage seeing its hitting all mobs around you? </P> <P>Hope you guys are /bugging this. <BR></P>

[Pin StNeedl]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>Pin that video you took proves nothing but you have no idea how to place mobs so that they are all with in a 180 degree frontal arc in front of you.</P> <P>Open wounds will and i have seen this from not only 1 but 2 lvl 60 Berserkers on raids purposely postion multiple encounters for this specific reason, i talk with them in Ventrilo voice chat program while we are raiding.</P> <P>So reguardless of my level, im fully aware of how the skill works, not sure why your so lazy and cant postion the mobs in the 180 degree frontal arc that Open Wounds is intended for, like the video proves, when you fired open wounds you were completely surrounded by mobs with only 4 in front of you at any given time, sometimes even less. Then you all you do is target the next one that is fighting you and procedd to kill it with out trying to even remotely bunch them up in front of you..........:smileyindifferent:<BR> <HR> <P></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The movie shows exactly what it was intended to show. That you can position mobs however the hell you like, and it will hit them. In front, behind, wherever - there is no restriction on what angle they are at, it hits the same number of mobs regardless. How would it help show that if I put all the mobs in front of me?</P> <P>As for your level 60 Berserker friends, I can only guess that they also lack observational capabilities. There is only 1 skill (ignoring block and parry) we have at 60 that has an angle restriction - Berserker Rush.</P></DIV>

[Pin StNeedl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR><BR> <P>So basically somewhere along the line they have nerfed it to hit a certain number of targets and in doing so have bugged the spell so it acually effects all mobs around you instead of the 180 degree frontal arc postion which it was doing a few months ago.</P> <P>Is it still even hitting mobs outside the encounter itself still or is it encounter only and working like Rampage seeing its hitting all mobs around you? </P> <P>Hope you guys are /bugging this. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No, it NEVER hit an unlimited number of mobs, and it does not claim this anywhere.</P> <P>And it was changed in beta from having an arc restriction after many people complained that the restriction was too severe and it rarely hit more than 1 or 2 targets as a result.</P> <P>As for hitting out of encounter. Why ask that question if you watched the movie I posted?</P>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pin StNeedles wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>Pin that video you took proves nothing but you have no idea how to place mobs so that they are all with in a 180 degree frontal arc in front of you.</P> <P>Open wounds will and i have seen this from not only 1 but 2 lvl 60 Berserkers on raids purposely postion multiple encounters for this specific reason, i talk with them in Ventrilo voice chat program while we are raiding.</P> <P>So reguardless of my level, im fully aware of how the skill works, not sure why your so lazy and cant postion the mobs in the 180 degree frontal arc that Open Wounds is intended for, like the video proves, when you fired open wounds you were completely surrounded by mobs with only 4 in front of you at any given time, sometimes even less. Then you all you do is target the next one that is fighting you and procedd to kill it with out trying to even remotely bunch them up in front of you..........:smileyindifferent:<BR> <HR> <P></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The movie shows exactly what it was intended to show. That you can position mobs however the hell you like, and it will hit them. In front, behind, wherever - there is no restriction on what angle they are at, it hits the same number of mobs regardless. How would it help show that if I put all the mobs in front of me?</P> <P>As for your level 60 Berserker friends, I can only guess that they also lack observational capabilities. There is only 1 skill (ignoring block and parry) we have at 60 that has an angle restriction - Berserker Rush.</P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well thats not the way it worked on Test Pin and thats not the way it worked 15 days after DoF was released when the first Berserker on EF hit 60.</P> <P>Like i said above, somewhere along the line its been silently nerfed and in the process they have messed up the targeting of the CA to hit mobs reguardless of where they are, which is obviously how its not suppose to work according to the CA description. </P> <P>Now that people have noticed it and have brought it to other peoples attention im sure there will be many bug reports to fix it.</P> <P>Is it still even hitting other mobs outside the encounter, are your observational skills good enough to let us know that seeing im not online atm.</P></DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pin StNeedles wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR><BR> <P>So basically somewhere along the line they have nerfed it to hit a certain number of targets and in doing so have bugged the spell so it acually effects all mobs around you instead of the 180 degree frontal arc postion which it was doing a few months ago.</P> <P>Is it still even hitting mobs outside the encounter itself still or is it encounter only and working like Rampage seeing its hitting all mobs around you? </P> <P>Hope you guys are /bugging this. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No, it NEVER hit an unlimited number of mobs, and it does not claim this anywhere.</P> <P>And it was changed in beta from having an arc restriction after many people complained that the restriction was too severe and it rarely hit more than 1 or 2 targets as a result.</P> <P>As for hitting out of encounter. Why ask that question if you watched the movie I posted?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No the problem on DOF beta was that you had to be basically ontop of the mobs for it to be working so they increased the range of certain CA's to give some more distance so you could be able to perform the arts, Khalad and konofo both posted screen shots of the problem.

[kono]

<P>...and as soon as they fixed that range problem, and ever since, Open Wounds has had no directional restriction.  Period.  Please don't make me dig up beta screenshots.</P> <P>najena.konk</P>

[Pin StNeedl]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>Well thats not the way it worked on Test Pin and thats not the way it worked 15 days after DoF was released when the first Berserker on EF hit 60.</P> <P>Like i said above, somewhere along the line its been silently nerfed and in the process they have messed up the targeting of the CA to hit mobs reguardless of where they are, which is obviously how its not suppose to work according to the CA description.</P> <P>Now that people have noticed it and have brought it to other peoples attention im sure there will be many bug reports to fix it.</P> <P>Is it still even hitting other mobs outside the encounter, are your observational skills good enough to let us know that seeing im not online atm.</P> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>1. That is how it worked on Test, and that is how it worked ever since I had the skill on Sept 30th.</DIV> <DIV>2. There weren't any level 60 Berserkers on EF 15 days after DoF release.</DIV> <DIV>3. It was changed in the last 2 weeks of Beta, and not since.</DIV> <DIV>4. See konofo's post.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pin StNeedles wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>Well thats not the way it worked on Test Pin and thats not the way it worked 15 days after DoF was released when the first Berserker on EF hit 60.</P> <P>Like i said above, somewhere along the line its been silently nerfed and in the process they have messed up the targeting of the CA to hit mobs reguardless of where they are, which is obviously how its not suppose to work according to the CA description.</P> <P>Now that people have noticed it and have brought it to other peoples attention im sure there will be many bug reports to fix it.</P> <P>Is it still even hitting other mobs outside the encounter, are your observational skills good enough to let us know that seeing im not online atm.</P> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>1. That is how it worked on Test, and that is how it worked ever since I had the skill on Sept 30th.</DIV> <DIV>2. There weren't any level 60 Berserkers on EF 15 days after DoF release.</DIV> <DIV>3. It was changed in the last 2 weeks of Beta, and not since.</DIV> <DIV>4. See konofo's post.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Pin ive come to terms like most others have, that you are always correct.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Open Wounds is obviously bugged, the OP mentioned nothing about OW in the OP, and your parse in the other thread shows that Rampage is the next to be nerfed seeing as the reason for nerfing Offensive stance was because it was doing 15% of your  total damage because of your play style which not every one adopts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you look at what is next you have Rampage doing 13% of your total damage after Unbridled Fury, so does that mean Rampage needs to be adjusted to 3 targets also because its a aoe like the patch state?</DIV>

[Pin StNeedl]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>your parse in the other thread shows that Rampage is the next to be nerfed seeing as the reason for nerfing Offensive stance was because it was doing 15% of your  total damage because of your play style which not every one adopts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you look at what is next you have Rampage doing 13% of your total damage after Unbridled Fury, so does that mean Rampage needs to be adjusted to 3 targets also because its a aoe like the patch state?</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>What do you mean by my playstyle? You mean I turn the skill on and use it, therefore it does damage? Good job you don't do that, so the change is not going to affect you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rampage did 11% under those conditions. Open Wounds was responsible for much more damage than either of the proc skills (probably 25% of total damage in the session), but you can't see this in the parse as it's merely autoswing "slash" damage.</DIV></DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pin StNeedles wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR>your parse in the other thread shows that Rampage is the next to be nerfed seeing as the reason for nerfing Offensive stance was because it was doing 15% of your  total damage because of your play style which not every one adopts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you look at what is next you have Rampage doing 13% of your total damage after Unbridled Fury, so does that mean Rampage needs to be adjusted to 3 targets also because its a aoe like the patch state?</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>What do you mean by my playstyle? You mean I turn the skill on and use it, therefore it does damage? Good job you don't do that, so the change is not going to affect you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rampage did 11% under those conditions. Open Wounds was responsible for much more damage than either of the proc skills (probably 25% of total damage in the session), but you can't see this in the parse as it's merely autoswing "slash" damage.</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No, im saying you chose to use the skill while you tank, which can potentially proc off another reactive proc and we all know why slow hand weps rule supreme in this situation.</P> <P>Open Wounds isnt being nerfed here, its bugged and needs to be fixed seeing it is hitting mobs all around you which it isnt suppose to be hitting mobs all around you. </P> <P>Now your telling me that seeing as Open Wounds is a max of 4 targets, its  proced more damage on 4 targets over that parse session then Rampage and Unbridled Fury has but is registering as auto swing damage? Auto Swing damage part is true, but i dont believe your parsing more damage with Open Wounds which is limited to only 4 targets where you can potentially get more damage out of Rampage and Unbridled Fury which is a entire encounter AoE, you can hands down get more damage out of those 2 simply because they dont have a limit to amount of mobs they can hit and Unbridled Fury is a constant buff where Rampage and Open Wounds is 36 second buffs and down for 3 mins. 25% percent total damage roughly from Open Wounds alone? .................:smileyindifferent:, now add in your Parry, Blocks, Misses, Ripostes and see how many times Open Wounds really did hit. I think you will find its more or less around the same as Rampage.</P> <P>Which is exactally the reason Unbridled Fury does that few percent more then Rampage, because its always up.</P></DIV>

[Mjollnyr]

<span><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<p>So basically somewhere along the line they have nerfed it to hit a certain number of targets and in doing so have bugged the spell so it acually effects all mobs around you instead of the 180 degree frontal arc postion which it was doing a few months ago.</p> <p>Is it still even hitting mobs outside the encounter itself still or is it encounter only and working like Rampage seeing its hitting all mobs around you? </p> <p>Hope you guys are /bugging this. </p><hr></blockquote>I dont know anything about the beta, this is how its been since i hit 58 (late September-early October). To answer your question: Yes it hits multi-encounters, to a max of four targets (your target plus three others) Other items of note about Open Wounds: 1)  Range on it flukey at best when fighting large modeled creatures. Fighting multiply encounters in Silent city, outside fountain of life. It works fine sometimes, others times i cant hit two mobs even if i'm standing inside them. This may be related to the 2nd problem 2)  When Open Wounds is up on a single normal heroic mob, example lvl 58^^^ Giant.  Your auto-attack appears to hit twice per swing.  I've found that occasionally when open wounds is up and i'm fighting a single epic encounter mob, example 60^^^ epicx4 Royal prowler, that open wounds will not perform that secondary attack. Meaning: I put open wounds up and mob only takes a single auto-attack swing, altho i do get the bonus haste. I never /bugged because i just assumed it was a problem with the wording of the ability.  Combat Art descriptions and stats have been wrong before. </span><div></div>

[KFizzle]

Alright, i say everyone shut up, stop throwing out numbers and lets all be very very quiet and hope now they dont nerf rampage.

[Tudd]

<span><blockquote><hr>ligiguinesmule wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>Had a lot to say so couldnt get in with 1 post.  Yes Tuddar we do have dps over guardians, but that little bit of dps isnt gonna be much of anything in a raid, especially once the new changes go into affect.  If we gotta rely on that little bit of aggro caused by our soon to be nerfed dps to make us a viable choice in raids then guess what,   we're screwed.  The biggest thing between guards and zerkers besides the close to 1k extra hp and more mitigation is their avoidance.  It's about 4-5% higher than ours.  So what you're saying is we are viable because we do a little more dps, but have less hp, mit and avoidance.  Sounds like a 2nd rate tank to me.   About the 55 in combat health regen,  I'd take an extra 1k hitpoints any day of the week over that.  Most of the raid mobs in game, its all about the first 10 secs of the fight.  If you cant stabalize it then you wipe.  With the huge aoe and single target nukes of the t6 raid mobs a lot of times its all about having enough hp to sustain a few hits.  Sure on the cakewalk raid mobs we do ok like Lockjaw but the others,  forget it I'll be clearing adds. </p> <p>Our aoe dps doesnt help us in raids where there is 1 mob and no adds either.  It is not substantial enough compared to guards to help us hold hate that much better.   Have you stood next to your guardian and been switched in and out of the mt group?  Check the stats we are inferior, period.  And what happens when you realize you cant tank and your dps gets nerfed? </p> <p>At least i can help clear the out-of-raid trash mobs</p> <p>I have absolutely no problem not being the raid MT.  I spent months not tanking.  My point is if we are bunched along with guardians and arent as good at tanking please soe, give us something thats useful.  Better group buffs would be a nice start,  possibly a better intercept?  Im not sure how they could do it.  After the new combat changes we have no place in a raid.  That is my concern.</p> <div></div><p>Message Edited by ligiguinesmule on <span class="date_text">11-08-2005</span> <span class="time_text">03:30 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>LOL, Dude, you do realize that by design we are *supposed* to not take a hit as well as a Guardian? And the reason behind that trade-off is the additional aggro we generate and the better DPS against groups of mobs? The changes being proposed won't change that one iota. Sure, we'll do a little less DPS, and the group with us in it will do a little less DPS. We'll still do way more DPS and aggro against groups of mobs then any other tank class. Look, by your argument, every other tank in the game is 2nd rate, because Guardian is built specifically to absorb a hit. So everyone else should hang it up. Sure, as a tank, I'm sure you'd rather have that 1k hp. However, *everyone* else in the group would probably want the regen. Have you switched a Guardian into the MT group *with you in it* and seen the difference? There's a reason Guardians complained that their buffs were group buffs, and this is one of the reasons. Learn to take advantage of it when the situation calls for it. I'm not going to tell you how to play your Zerker nor am I going to tell you how to build your MT groups. If you can't look at your abilities compared to a Guardian and see where your abilities are more applicable in some situations then others, then perhaps it's best that others make that decision for you. </span><div></div>

[Pin StNeedl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>Now your telling me that seeing as Open Wounds is a max of 4 targets, its  proced more damage on 4 targets over that parse session then Rampage and Unbridled Fury has but is registering as auto swing damage? Auto Swing damage part is true, but i dont believe your parsing more damage with Open Wounds which is limited to only 4 targets where you can potentially get more damage out of Rampage and Unbridled Fury which is a entire encounter AoE, you can hands down get more damage out of those 2 simply because they dont have a limit to amount of mobs they can hit and Unbridled Fury is a constant buff where Rampage and Open Wounds is 36 second buffs and down for 3 mins. 25% percent total damage roughly from Open Wounds alone? .................:smileyindifferent:, now add in your Parry, Blocks, Misses, Ripostes and see how many times Open Wounds really did hit. I think you will find its more or less around the same as Rampage.</P> <P>Which is exactally the reason Unbridled Fury does that few percent more then Rampage, because its always up.<BR> <HR> <P></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Open Wounds is a 36s buff (then down for 2m24). While it's up, you do 6-8x the amount of autoattack damage you would have without (hitting 5 times per swing, and having 45% haste). The extra swings go through the same block/parry/miss/riposte checks as any autoswing. So, in a 3min combat period, doing 6x damage for 30sec, then 1x damage for 2m30, you total 11x, instead of the normal 6x you would have done with normal autoswing. i.e. 45% of autoswing damage can be attributed to Open Wounds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because the parse in the other thread has the amount from autoswing at the top, you could roughly work out what came from OW and compare that to the other skills (giving 22% of total damage being from OW as a low-end estimate).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I should also note that due to breaks for power and moving between encounters, much of the time waiting for OW to recharge can be disregarded, meaning OW gave a much higher contribution than that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edit: And no, Rampage and Unbridled Fury are not entire encounter AoE procs. They are currently limited to 5 targets within 1 encounter.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Pin StNeedles on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:18 PM</span>

[Tudd]

<span><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<div> <blockquote> <hr> Pin StNeedles wrote: <div> <blockquote> <hr> -Aonein- wrote: <div>your parse in the other thread shows that Rampage is the next to be nerfed seeing as the reason for nerfing Offensive stance was because it was doing 15% of your  total damage because of your play style which not every one adopts.</div> <div> </div> <div>When you look at what is next you have Rampage doing 13% of your total damage after Unbridled Fury, so does that mean Rampage needs to be adjusted to 3 targets also because its a aoe like the patch state?</div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>What do you mean by my playstyle? You mean I turn the skill on and use it, therefore it does damage? Good job you don't do that, so the change is not going to affect you.</div> <div> </div> <div>Rampage did 11% under those conditions. Open Wounds was responsible for much more damage than either of the proc skills (probably 25% of total damage in the session), but you can't see this in the parse as it's merely autoswing "slash" damage.</div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>No, im saying you chose to use the skill while you tank, which can potentially proc off another reactive proc and we all know why slow hand weps rule supreme in this situation.</p> <p>Open Wounds isnt being nerfed here, its bugged and needs to be fixed seeing it is hitting mobs all around you which it isnt suppose to be hitting mobs all around you. </p> <p>Now your telling me that seeing as Open Wounds is a max of 4 targets, its  proced more damage on 4 targets over that parse session then Rampage and Unbridled Fury has but is registering as auto swing damage? Auto Swing damage part is true, but i dont believe your parsing more damage with Open Wounds which is limited to only 4 targets where you can potentially get more damage out of Rampage and Unbridled Fury which is a entire encounter AoE, you can hands down get more damage out of those 2 simply because they dont have a limit to amount of mobs they can hit and Unbridled Fury is a constant buff where Rampage and Open Wounds is 36 second buffs and down for 3 mins. 25% percent total damage roughly from Open Wounds alone? .................:smileyindifferent:, now add in your Parry, Blocks, Misses, Ripostes and see how many times Open Wounds really did hit. I think you will find its more or less around the same as Rampage.</p> <p>Which is exactally the reason Unbridled Fury does that few percent more then Rampage, because its always up.</p></div><hr></blockquote>I'm afraid you are quite incorrect here, my friend. Open Wounds does a lot more damage then Rampage and Fury. Rampage basically gives ten extra swings. Period. After ten swings, it's down. Open Wounds is up for 36 seconds, hits 5 mobs, no limit on the number of swings generated, just the time that it is up. In two melee rounds, Open Wounds will reach the damage potential of Rampage if you are facing five mobs. And don't forget, Open Wounds gives you 45% haste during those 36 seconds. Yes, Open Wounds in and of itself will outdamage Rampage and Fury easily. </span><div></div>

[uux]

<span><blockquote><hr>Mjollnyr wrote: <span>I dont know anything about the beta, this is how its been since i hit 58 (late September-early October). To answer your question: Yes it hits multi-encounters, to a max of four targets (your target plus three others) Other items of note about Open Wounds: 1)  Range on it flukey at best when fighting large modeled creatures. Fighting multiply encounters in Silent city, outside fountain of life. It works fine sometimes, others times i cant hit two mobs even if i'm standing inside them. This may be related to the 2nd problem 2)  When Open Wounds is up on a single normal heroic mob, example lvl 58^^^ Giant.  Your auto-attack appears to hit twice per swing.  I've found that occasionally when open wounds is up and i'm fighting a single epic encounter mob, example 60^^^ epicx4 Royal prowler, that open wounds will not perform that secondary attack. Meaning: I put open wounds up and mob only takes a single auto-attack swing, altho i do get the bonus haste. I never /bugged because i just assumed it was a problem with the wording of the ability.  Combat Art descriptions and stats have been wrong before. </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>1) I've noticed this.  It might be related to existing pathing bugs.  Simply repositioning myself slightly seems to fix it the majority of the time. 2) Your autoattack can be blocked/parried/dodged/riposted.  Open Wounds hits with 100% certainty (or so states the description for what that is worth).  That single attack is most likely open wounds, while your autoattack didn't hit the mob.</span><div></div>

[ligiguinesmule]

<P>Tuddar</P> <P>Of course we arent supposed to take as much damage, our offense is supposed to be the difference but that is being nerfed.  I still do think we will have an advantage in a raid that has adds but please show me a T6 raid with adds?  Lockjaw no, Terrorantula no,  both dragons in MajDul no.  See the trend here?  Our loss in dps is going to make us useless in raids if we dont tank was my whole point.  Heres why</P> <P>By my arguement all other tanks are useless?  Absolutely not.  Do you read selectively?  Every other class has major skills to add to raids which we do not.  Monks/bruisers for pulling, fd and stuff,  Pallies have rez, healing and SK have great mitigation debuffs as well as some other great skills.  Guards are better plate tanks than us.   We have zero utility and crappy grp buffs while not in mt group.  Therefore, we have little to no utility and little else besides dps to give a raid.</P> <P>You really think that people in my group would want my health regen?  If I am in a non-tank group they'd just want another class in there besides me.  My 55 in combat regen isnt gonna come close to healing them from one of the new, wicked aoe's some of these mobs have.  Our best raid buff for non-tank groups was War Call which is getting nerfed so it only goes off when a mob dies.  Tell me how that helps when there are no adds to kill? </P> <P>Trust me, I don't need you telling me how to play my zerker.  Maybe you should take a look at this class and realize that unless you're tanking, after the revamp, that theres 23 other classes better for raids than us.  </P> <P>We definitely have abilities that make us more applicable, like t5 raid mobs woohoo...   In your replies you never had anything to say about how we're not useful in a raid unless we're tanking so I assume you read selectively or just dont want to realize I am right.  </P> <P>Anyone wanna go kill Drayek? Maybe ragnog? lol I'm a zerker, I am built for that</P>

[Mjollnyr]

<span><blockquote><hr>uux wrote:<span> 1) I've noticed this.  It might be related to existing pathing bugs.  Simply repositioning myself slightly seems to fix it the majority of the time. 2) Your autoattack can be blocked/parried/dodged/riposted.  Open Wounds hits with 100% certainty (or so states the description for what that is worth).  That single attack is most likely open wounds, while your autoattack didn't hit the mob.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>1) Ya, i use repositioning to try to solve it, it works sometimes. othertimes it does not. Glad to see i'm not the only one with this issue tho. 2) I have misses listed in my combat window, my combat window shows my misses (blocks, parries, dodges, etc) as well as my hits.  So if i attacked twice i'd see it, doesn't matter if i miss or hit, i will still see two lines appear. Unfortunately i'm not seeing two lines, just one.  Cant say why, but have only really noticed the problem while in silent city fighting single epic encounters. This also doesn't always happen, its why i think 1 & 2 maybe related. Either way, there is something buggy about Open Wounds. Ps. didn't this post get off topic.  Sorry Cr0wangel. Altho some of the stuff discussed is good information. Besides the back and forth arguements <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Tudd]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>ligiguinesmule wrote:<p>Tuddar</p> <p>Of course we arent supposed to take as much damage, our offense is supposed to be the difference but that is being nerfed.  I still do think we will have an advantage in a raid that has adds but please show me a T6 raid with adds?  Lockjaw no, Terrorantula no,  both dragons in MajDul no.  See the trend here?  Our loss in dps is going to make us useless in raids if we dont tank was my whole point.  Heres why</p> <p>By my arguement all other tanks are useless?  Absolutely not.  Do you read selectively?  Every other class has major skills to add to raids which we do not.  Monks/bruisers for pulling, fd and stuff,  Pallies have rez, healing and SK have great mitigation debuffs as well as some other great skills.  Guards are better plate tanks than us.   We have zero utility and crappy grp buffs while not in mt group.  Therefore, we have little to no utility and little else besides dps to give a raid.</p> <p>You really think that people in my group would want my health regen?  If I am in a non-tank group they'd just want another class in there besides me.  My 55 in combat regen isnt gonna come close to healing them from one of the new, wicked aoe's some of these mobs have.  Our best raid buff for non-tank groups was War Call which is getting nerfed so it only goes off when a mob dies.  Tell me how that helps when there are no adds to kill? </p> <p>Trust me, I don't need you telling me how to play my zerker.  Maybe you should take a look at this class and realize that unless you're tanking, after the revamp, that theres 23 other classes better for raids than us.  </p> <p>We definitely have abilities that make us more applicable, like t5 raid mobs woohoo...   In your replies you never had anything to say about how we're not useful in a raid unless we're tanking so I assume you read selectively or just dont want to realize I am right.  </p> <p>Anyone wanna go kill Drayek? Maybe ragnog? lol I'm a zerker, I am built for that</p><hr></blockquote>Lol, I'm done arguing with you dude. You want to [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that you can't tank mobs (when you can and are actually the preferrable tank in some situations), then you [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] that you have no roll if your not tanking. Hey, guess what, replace the word "Berserker" in your arguments with "Guardian" and it's pretty much the same. At least we can buff Strength which can help in a DPS group and minor HP regen which let's folks use manastone if they need to and get that health back. This change doesn't spell the end of the [Removed for Content] world for Berserkers, unlike the doom and gloom message your trying to send out. It doesn't have the huge impact your making it out to be. Zero impact on our tanking. Minor impact on our role outside of tanking. Best advice to you: Just don't raid, because you've abundantly pointed out that Berserker's are too [Removed for Content] to be effective in any role. Let someone else go, because anything we can do, someone can do better. Hopefully someone will put some Fabled in the bank for us, because we aren't going to be around when it drops. </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Tuddar on <span class=date_text>11-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:02 PM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV> <P>Anyways......Open Wounds is bugged and needs to be looked at.</P> <P>Unbridled Fury, while i aggree with the damage reduction on the CA, i dont seem to understand the reason for reducing the targets it effects. Because its a AoE? Sorry that means Warlocks needs nerfing to all there AoE's because there AoE's too.........</P> <P>I suspect there will be yet more knee jerk changes to come, and it wont be stopping at the Fury Line.</P></DIV>

[Styk]

<DIV>SoE can kiss my [Removed for Content]... Knee jerk reaction to everything is their motto... Why dont they just hurry up and reconsoldate the classes already in this game, hell they did it to SWG... just remerge some of the classes already and stop playing " madden 2k6" with our class , im getting sick and tired of getting the nerf bat swung at me every other freaking month already!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SoE stop acting like a r.e.t.a.r.d -  m.o.r.o.n on [Removed for Content] who is about to get laid by a 75 year old virgin! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Get your shyet together .... </DIV>

[infernus006]

<div></div><a target="top" href="../view_profile?user.id=73863"><span>cr0wangel</span></a>,yes the berserk animation is gone now...they took it out completely.  why, i have no clue.  i liked the way it was right after the last update they did that changed it from an actual animation to just a red glow and sound effect.  i thought it was perfect then and so did everyone else that bothered to post about it so i really don't understand why they went and did this now and i am quite disturbed by it.<div></div>