Inbalance in Agro Managment (DPS vs.Taunting)

[Zhonata]

<DIV>Ok, Im a LvL 54 Beserker. All of my taunts are adept 3 fearsome shout is master 2 and my Offending defense is adept 3. My weapons guard, Unbridle fury [stance], and rampage are all Adept 3. All of my offensive abiltys are adept 1 or better. I have P.I. Cobalt halberd and full set of Cobalt armor and jewlery. I say this cause offense is a very imporatant factor in aggro management for my class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok anyways. I have been playing for awhile and very much enjoy by class. I have been doing alot of small grp (1-3) xping against whites and lower. Just recently (past 4 days) I have been doing full groups against yellow and higher in POF ( sabers, giants, sandfuries). I have played with alot of dps classes: Wizzards, swashies, assasins, rangers....... and so on and have found it very hard and at time flat out impossible to hold aggro against them. It is to the point when i group now that i have tell them if the pull aggro off me then "They are going to die" this is not becuase i want them to die, but it is an effort in futility to try and pul it of them. I have 2 cycling taunts ( ranged taunt, and attack taunt..... btw that only taunt for about 1000 together) one mid recast taunt ( Group taunt) and then and High hate taunt / aoe taunt insolent gib with huge recast. Then ther is rescue (10 min recast). I have Taunting stance ( offending defense ). Now i have even used rescue against some Wizzards, Rangers, and Swashies and had the monster turn right back around on them a couple secound later.  Now with only 2 cycling taunt against these guy at least one normally get resisted so i am taunting liek 500 hate every 8 sec......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottum line is that my class has no probelm holding agro aginst white con or lower, but against DPS aggro acrue vs. Taunting aggro acru in these yellow and up cons it is practically impossible to hold agro. I have tried several strategies told to me by friends and peopel on these forusm and the bottum line is that we dont have enough. Almost ( I think) ever fighter type has some means of Dropping / absorbing Aggro of a grp member or members, but the beserker class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean what is the point of my high mitigation close to 50% avoidance if i can not keep the mob on me. This is truly not thru a lack of trying. This is a serious problem. I have talk to several of the dps class, They have all of the hate gain and aggro control abilties. I dont see the point in having the DPS classes having complete control over aggro in a grp which is the way it is now. I cant even put up a decent fight against them they decide they want it it is theres.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im not saying that I should have complete control over aggro but I should be able to come close to the aggro that they put out or at least syphon some of it off them or drop it. As it is right now i am battling a monster and my grpies. I mean i shouldnt be having to fight my grp members over who is tanking. This makes the game very frustrating when a grp member dies and i am "supose" to be protecting them and ther isnt a [Removed for Content] thing i can do about it. It is the worst feeling in the world watching a friend die and trying you hardest to help but there is nothing you can do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This issue need to be look at i would really like to hear fro mthe players and some input from a devoper or a GM. Im not askign for complete aggro mastery, but as it stand right now DPS aggro vs. taunting aggro i might as well keep my taunts in a bag</DIV>

[FlameingInfer]

I agree!  Its nutz trying to hold aggro, I have had to make a Macro saying dont attack till i say so!   and i have to cycle thew 3 rounds of taunts before anyone can attack, and even then sometimes they steal aggro, and once that happens its all over! i cant get it back.  something has to be done!  im looseing groups now because i cant hold aggro.  I hate to solo! 

[-Aonein-]

<P>To be honest i have no trouble holding agro because the people i play with know how far they can go before being on the dge of taking agro.</P> <P>Its not about who con do the most DPS on any single target, these people just simply have no idea on how to play their classes and are nothing more then show ponys, its about sustained DPS over a period of time, if your Mages / Scouts can find that sweet spot, you wont loss agro.</P>

[Lalaya]

The Assasin should be able to transfer ~20% of his hate gain towards you. If he does, you won't loose aggro (except to warlocks of course <span>:smileywink:</span>) - at least that's my experience. <div></div>

[Khal]

<DIV>Get the taunts adept 3ed at least, get them in early , before anyone else gets on the mob, then do good dps and you shouldn't have a prob.  </DIV>

[Karde Shar]

<P>Swashbucklers, Assassins, Dirges, and Coercers.</P> <P> </P> <P>They are your phriends for aggro problems.</P> <DIV>ps: why am I green?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Karde Sharke on <span class=date_text>10-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:18 AM</span>

[einar4]

<DIV> One of the problems on the high con mobs is that the taunts seem to now have a "to hit" issue.  Your taunt has a chance to be resisted as redily as a strike does.  I had the same issue recently with a group doing really high level stuff (for me) and I had to chain 2 taunts and a high threat attack (promise) just to hold agro over the wizard and healer in the party.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Right after that, I used my respec and retrained to take Master level in the higher level taunt I have.  I have yet to test it out in a high end group however. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tudd]

In my experience, it really boils down to people knowing how to play without getting aggro. There used to be a good saying in EQ that went like this: Any dumbazz can pull aggro of a warrior, but only a dumbazz would. Folks have to know their limits, and the tank's limits. Every tank is different, and you have to adjust to them. What works with one tank, won't necessarily work with another. People have to adjust their aggro production to the tank, not the other way around. Those who don't know how to control their aggro are just a drag on the group, and even though they think they are helping to kill faster by cranking out the dps, they actually will slow things down because if they are tanking the mob due to their generating too much aggro, then now they are tanking (not their job) and the tank is doing DPS (not their job). In the long run, this slows things down of course. I tell everyone I group with to give me about 7 or 8 seconds to build aggro on any mob that's even halfway challenging. Same strategy as warriors did in EQ. Give the tank time to build some aggro, and give some breathing room in case the tank gets stunned right at the beginning of a fight, as can happen quite often. Aggro management is everyone's responsibility, not just the tanks. <div></div>

[Glaxton]

<P>I have never had a problem maintaining agro when tanking.  I can't even remember the last time someone pulled agro from me.  My only problem is taking agro when DPSing.  It has happened numerous times to me on raids ie Splitpaw, CH, the x2 group Captain in CoD.  I know my job is DPS and not tank so I don't touch a single taunt.  First couple of times pulling agro I figured I was just going crazy with CA's so I cut back.  I have limited myself to two CA's in a raid, Relentlss Battering and Vicious Blow.  I've found that the MA still loses agro to me it just takes longer.  Stunning Cry is definately out along with any other AE based attack.  I've even gone as far as using my defensive stance instead of the offensive one cause I know I'll end up with agro at some point in the fight.  All my skills are Adept 1 or App 4.</P> <P>Am I doing something wrong here or does our MA just need to upgrade his taunts.  MA is normally a Guard, but sometimes a Pally.  Oh yeah. Weapon of choice is Pristine Imbued Feysteel Halberd when playing DPS.</P> <p>Message Edited by Glaxton on <span class=date_text>10-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:07 AM</span>

[Corvax6]

<P>We do tend to have problems keeping aggro if we must be in <FONT color=#ff3333>defensive stance</FONT>...  In that stance we sacrifice a lot of DPS to better defense and since we tend to build alot of are aggro through damage, it's a real cut back on aggro generation...</P> <P>I tend to always try to start the fight in <FONT color=#ff3300>offensive stance</FONT>, insolent gibe and offending defense (Master 2) with the Weapon guard for a couple of rounds....this is a little more demanding on the healer, but it's better then having the healer change targets, waste all his power on healing a Wizard and you waste all your power gaining aggro back...Also, If it gets to rough I will switch to defensive stance and add my subdued rage to my buffs for the end of the fight.  I rarely lose aggro with this method, the times that I do it's either cause I got stund/resisted on the pull and a trigger happy DPS or Priest laned a spell/attack before I could get a good grip on Aggro....</P> <P>Just make sure they let you have a little one on one with the mob...It's real important, those fisrt seconds with the mob make a whole lot of difference....</P>

[Ep]

<P>i find that if i pull with fearsomeshout, and throw in a wallop or sunder i don't loose aggro ever really, i'm in offensive stance with a RGF. i don't even throw in any other taunts besides just aoe dps and a frenzy or vanquish.</P> <P>i don't use offending defense, or promise/bully, only if i feel like doing a ho, unless i pull a single , then i just throw out 1 taunt.</P> <P>and i'm usually grouped with a swash 4lvl's above my 54, or wizards and other high dps scouts either the same or higher lvl than me, they'll pull aggro like 2x an hour each, which isn't much.</P> <P>of course if i'm fighting a single ^^^ or it seems like a hard long mob, or a rush of 2 hard groups, then i'll have to switched to def stance, and use offending defense, thats how i balance out the lack of dps by switching to def stance, by using it with offending def.</P> <P>i also played with an imbued ironwood pike, even tho they dps parser guy said i do 320 with the t6 rare, while i did 688 with the RGF, but both i didn't have problems holding aggro.</P> <P>if i switch to a 1hander/shield thats where my problems mount up, and if i then decide to add def stance, it's hard keeping aggro</P> <P>especially tanking epics in raids, i would need a swash or a coercer, some1 who can xfer hate to me, while i go 1hander/shield/def stance/offending def and cycling all taunts as they pop. adding controlled rage+ wall of rage.</P>

[Robbpilot]

<P>This is why I chose berserker though.  I think you are right about how hard it is to hold aggro, but it would be worse to be a guardian in those same shoes.  That's their forte, and I think they still struggle with it.</P> <P>Perhaps it will get fixed, perhaps not.</P> <P>Remember that all players are not supposed to have adept III abilities across the board... that is supposed to be rare.  It amazes me how many players have all adept III spells/arts and ultra-uber armor and weapons too.</P> <P>Removing that as the solution... the reality is that DPS players need to govern their damage if they wish to avoid aggro.  If they go full out they have nobody to blame but themselves for dying.  Healers have trouble keeping DPS classes standing when ^^^ targets attack them, and tanks have trouble pulling back the aggro.</P> <P> </P>

[Gavpim]

<P>If the guys your fighting with are throwing out their MAX dps all the time right away your right, you wont keep agro very well if at all.</P> <P>However, assuming your freinds know what their doing then they will be trying to control their agro, that being the case heres some things to try out:</P> <P> </P> <P>Get yourself as close to the mob/mobs as possible and have the casters in your group as far away as possible (yes Proxy agro is here i've seen it many times).</P> <P> </P> <P>If you stun a mob it will sometimes, for some unknowned to me reason, switch agro to the nearest person to it.  if thats not your you will have some troubles...</P> <P> </P> <P>Others than that you seem to be doing everything pretty much right, just try to throw out as much DPS as ya can along with those taunts ya been doing <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Dutroc]

You will also get some exta agro from your HP regen. i always either taunt pull or taunt very shortly after the pull and quickly get in spot and use Taunting Defense. only time i loose agro is if people r going all out , but in that case it dont really matter cause the mob dies so fast it dont have time to kill any1. but id make sure all taunts and buffs r adept3  especially HP regen will help u keep that agro. <p></p>

[SwordsEd]

<P></P> <P>I have had similar trouble when dealing with groups. Like you, I am in Legendary gear and have many arts at Adept 3. I can usually hold aggro on my current target but will often lose it on aggro mob members. They will peel off and start attacking the DoT classes. I have found that I must get in the group taunts every time it comes back up (because it will get resisted) and I must get in my group attacks every time they come up. Even then, there is a 25-50% chance that I will lose aggro on someone in the group. I can't do any more. I have the hate transfer spells on me by our Swashbuckler and everything. I can't generate enough hate. The group tries not to overnuke but sometimes in a fight they must push the envelope because the healer can't heal all day long.</P> <P>I am equally as frustrated. Nothing worse than watching a group member die after you have tried 4 taunts and every attack to regain the aggro. I am on teamspeak with my group so I can tell them to stop attacking....doesn't always allow me to regain aggro.</P> <P>On lower level groups, I hold aggro 90% of the time. It is the white and higher.</P>

[Zylokr]

<p></p>pally have crazy aggro from amends, gaurds / zerkers/ sks do not... me as an SK in groups i go fulll offensive  with 2h cobalt, i find i hold alot better aggro with the added dps. and i just let the healer deal with it lol, they need to give all tank classes a spell like amends : which you cast on the highest dps and it transfers 30-40% hate of theirs to you. raid tanking i start off with taunts,debuffs,HT, then the reg stuff. i dont lose aggro much, but this 1 certain warlock is always testing me lol, but she dies and i laugh =) 58sk befallen <p></p><p>Message Edited by Zylokron on <span class=date_text>10-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:21 AM</span>

[Sasaki Koji]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zylokron wrote:<BR> <P></P>pally have crazy aggro from amends, gaurds / zerkers/ sks do not... me as an SK in groups i go fulll offensive  with 2h cobalt, i find i hold alot better aggro with the added dps. and i just let the healer deal with it lol, they need to give all tank classes a spell like amends : which you cast on the highest dps and it transfers 30-40% hate of theirs to you.<BR><BR>raid tanking i start off with taunts,debuffs,HT, then the reg stuff. i dont lose aggro much, but this 1 certain warlock is always testing me lol, but she dies and i laugh =)<BR><BR><BR>58sk befallen<BR> <P></P> <P>Message Edited by Zylokron on <SPAN class=date_text>10-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:21 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Lol so true. Stupid Sorcerers always doin dum [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (despite their super high int lol). Tho if theres enough DPS in my group and if we're fighting real fights (4lvls below me or higher heroic ^^^) Im sword/shield in Defensive, and really dont have a problem. Infernal Caress Adept III, Blasphemy Adept III, Insideous Promise Adept III, Infernal Circle Adept III. I dont try to have TOO much avoidance tho. Im sticking to the old world Dark Shield of the Void, a mere 540 Sheild factor rather than the 890 from a ironwood kite shield, to make sure i get hit sometimes <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Multiple mobs, make sure you use your aoes too if safe to do so. <P></P>

[thygeson]

<P>What I have noticed is that legendary gear and adept III's are required to be truly successful.  I have a 40 wizard also  and the difference in damage between an adept III and an adept I is huge.  Whether this is a good way for the game to be I don't know.</P> <P>Regarding the dps and taunts I sometimes find that I can cycle through my taunts three times without being able to pull a mob off someone, then I hit a ca like frenzy or berzerker assault and the mob immediately comes to me.  I think the dps plays a role in our ability to get aggro as much as the taunts do.  If that is the case I think some adjustment is needed because we don't have great dps unless being attacked by 40 mobs in our root stance with our counterassault on.  Maybe make our taunts stronger.</P>

[Corvax6]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SwordsEdge wrote:<BR> <P></P> <P>I have had similar trouble when dealing with groups. Like you, I am in Legendary gear and have many arts at Adept 3. I can usually hold aggro on my current target but will often lose it on aggro mob members. They will peel off and start attacking the DoT classes. I have found that I must get in the group taunts every time it comes back up (because it will get resisted) and I must get in my group attacks every time they come up. Even then, there is a 25-50% chance that I will lose aggro on someone in the group. I can't do any more. I have the hate transfer spells on me by our Swashbuckler and everything. I can't generate enough hate. The group tries not to overnuke but sometimes in a fight they must push the envelope because the healer can't heal all day long.</P> <P>I am equally as frustrated. Nothing worse than watching a group member die after you have tried 4 taunts and every attack to regain the aggro. I am on teamspeak with my group so I can tell them to stop attacking....doesn't always allow me to regain aggro.</P> <P>On lower level groups, I hold aggro 90% of the time. It is the white and higher.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Unless the mobs other then your main target are mezzed, you should be pounding on there heads with all your AoE, group taunts to get them to be hitting on you right from the start.  After a couple of counters from your Weapon Guard line and offending defense, you should have all the aggro that is needed.  And once you get rampage, if you don't already have! ....this is my openning on a group of mobs: </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pull ( Fearsome Shout or Arrow), </DIV> <DIV>Fearsome Shout if Arrow used,  Adept 3</DIV> <DIV>offending defense,  Master 2</DIV> <DIV>weapon guard, Adept 3</DIV> <DIV>rampage,  Master 1 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Slaughter,  Adept 3</DIV> <DIV>Berseker Assault.  Adept 3</DIV> <DIV>Stunning Roar, Adept 3</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You will generate so much DPS on all the mobs around you that Aggro will not be an issue.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and don't tell it's cause I have all Adpet 3 or better... even without all the adept 3, I used to deal major DPS in this way....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Corvax666 on <span class=date_text>11-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:09 PM</span>

[dr4gonUK]

Its not a reflection of how you play your serker. More a reflection of group setup, and how those groupmembers generate aggro. Dont knock yourself, sounds like a decent learning curve.

[Mjollnyr]

<div></div>Stuns: When a mob is stunned it doesn't appear to be able to change targets, so if you use Slay (7s stun) while a mob is looking at someone else, and then you rescue, the mob wont switch targets to you until the stun breaks.  This is my experiences when playing with a coercer friend. In response to the OP, I'd have to agree that there is current an imbalance between +threat abilities (taunts) versus raw damage. level 60 Berserker taunts: (rough values, dont have the exact numbers on hand, at work atm) Adept 3-Outrage: 950-1050 threat every 8s Master 1-Fearsome shout: 780 threat every 20s Adept 3-Brutal Pledge: 560 threat every 8s + minimal damage (200-300) Adept3-Taunting defense: 300 threat + minimal damage (150-250) 20% of the time when i'm hit Using only those combat arts to maintain agro from almost any dps class, being it non-bard scouts, or non-chanter mages.  The amount of threat generation with all those CA'a chained back to back should seem like a significant amount. Yet i can almost garuntee that the dps class will gain agro and you'll have one hell of a time getting it back. The only way you can maintain agro is by chaining those threat generators, and using most of your damage combat styles.  This requires alot of power consumption, which is bad. Anothering thing i've noticed. When i'm holding agro fine, then the mob switchs. The person that mob switchs to stops doing anything. I quickly burn off my threat taunts to get the mob back, but the mob completely ignores me.  If i instead burning off Frenzied blows (high damage CA) and two medium damage CA's (unyeilding battering, breach) i'll get the mob back more often then not. This tells me that the 2000 damage is more agro than 2000 threat generation (rough numbers). Now of course if that person who took agro continues casting, there's no way in heck i'm getting the mob back short of Rescue. What are taunts besides a substitute for a damage style that's suppose to help fighters maintain agro. 1000 threat counts as 800 damage yet the mob has that 800 health still? If thats the case shouldn't it be on a higher ratio closer to 1000 threat counts as 1200-1500 damage because it doesn't infact every hurt or kill the mob? I'm sure everyone's experiences are slightly different, but currently i think that threat and damage are imbalanced.  Not game breakingly where taunts are meaningless, but taunts dont seem to be 100% effective.  I hope it gets slightly re-balanced. Pre-dof holding agro was incredible easy,post-dof it seems closer to where it should be, but not quite there. <div></div>

[Cynto]

Something the Origional Poster may also want to look into that took me until about level 55 to realize is that one of our group buffs (War Call) that gives a rather decent chance for any group member to proc haste/dps increase. I've tested it out myself recently with one of my Monk guildes clicking the buff off, and while it didn't keep him from being able to get aggro from me, it sure as heck let me keep it a lot longer than I had the previous hour or so we had been fighting. Just something you might want to look into as any DPS melee that berserks nearly as much as we do can be a major problem for aggro management.

[aislynn00]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Robbpilot wrote:<BR> <P>I think you are right about how hard it is to hold aggro, but it would be worse to be a guardian in those same shoes.  That's their forte, and I think they still struggle with it.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We do indeed.</P> <P>I have all taunts, taunt attacks, and my reactive taunt stance at Adept III to Master II while most of my DPS abilities are Adept III with a few still at Adept I, and yet, when fighting high yellow cons or any kind of orange con, I am losing aggro virtually every fight, no matter what I do.</P> <P>The problem we guardians are facing is one of resisted taunts, including resisted reactive hate procs.  With LU13, taunts were changed to be resistible, and thus became entirely inferior to hate gain via DPS, which is less streaky and also sports secondary benefits (i.e., you are actually killing the mob while building up hate with it.)</P> <P>As for having a way of reducing the amount of hate other characters generate, we have a buff we are able to place on one group member which reduces that person's hate generation by 28% at Adept III level.  Unfortunately, it doesn't transfer that person's hate to us, nor can it be cast on characters not in our group, nor does it affect anyone but that single target.  In other words, it is effectively useless on raids and only of limited use in groups.  And of course, when fighting orange cons, even when I use aforementioned hate reducing buff, I still frequently lose aggro to warlocks, wizards, and conjurors.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by aislynn00 on <span class=date_text>11-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:06 AM</span>

[Styk]

<DIV>What yall dont understand is Berserker agro depends ALOT from dps.... You can have adept3-Master taunts BUT if you are in defensive you will lose ALOT of your dps via the offense hit ( so far thru testing having a fury in your group with their + 40 to slash/crush/pierce/range buff which compensates for the offense stat loss from defensive.....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like it or not ALOT of our taunt is dps..... </DIV>