Aoe Aggro Control

[Zhonata]

<DIV>Alright i have been playing alot with my zerker in grps and for the most part if th grp is balanced then i have no problem controling aggro as long as i pay attentio nad use my taunts and abilty efficiently. But i hav been playing in a grp latly with A monk, dirge, assasin, warden ,templar, and me. This grp no matter what i do with adept 3 tautns and offendign stance pull teh creature of me halfway thru battle. There is nothin can do about this in retrospec when in a long battle I now have to bow out to the monk cause i cant keep aggro off my grpies for the duration of the fight. Now i have adept 3 taunts  and adept 3 stance and i my self for defensive mode am doign decent dmg. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then today while playing with my brother who jsut hit 52 foudn out that the swashy class gains a variation of our lvl 58 Opening woudns abilitie. Ther abilty is 88% chance to hit everytime and is until canceled........</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[Removed for Content] i played with him in the grp instead of dirge and i can no longer hold the aoe aggro or the single target aggro. He is out aoe dmging me and seriously out single target dmging me. I have 3 taunts and when he pulls 4 out 5 targets off me what am i supsoe to do . Well i tell u what i did do i let him die cause there was nothing i could do i toasted 3 taunt on 1 target and still didnte regain aggro he died in about 3 hit from all of them and then i used taunt o regain aggro again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is going on Zerkers  are supose to be the undisputed AOE masters and now i find a class that excels in single target melle dmg has my classes almsot exact abilty. This trait was given to us so we could control multiple targets in and encounter. AS it is the scout class is slighly above ( meaning that the hold back so as not to out aggro the tank) then u give them my abilty. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is something wrong here...... a balance needs to be achieved here i mean i dont sugest nerfign the swashies more less given the fighter class  a chance to counter the sout class dmg aggro. As it is right now 3 taunt isnt cutting it excpecially when they can be resisited.</DIV>

[scl]

<font face="Courier New" size="2"></font><blockquote><hr><b>Zhonata wrote:</b><p>What is going on Zerkers are supose to be the undisputed AOE masters and now i find a class that excels in single target melle dmg has my classes almsot exact abilty. This trait was given to us so we could control multiple targets in and encounter. AS it is the scout class is slighly above ( meaning that the hold back so as not to out aggro the tank) then u give them my abilty.</p><hr></blockquote>Thats not strictly true. The swashbucklers ability is true AoE and only attacks enemies in an arc, not the encounter, like our assault ability. Our unbridled fury (I know you said you were defensive, but I've never found a use for it when fighting in a good group. I always go offensive and the fights go much smoother.) ability on the other hand hits the whole encounter. Combine that with Weapon guard and offending defence and you really shouldn't have a problem. Besides, if you really want to show them who's boss when it comes to AoE, throw a Rampage out there.<p>You also say you had a warden with you? They should have Bramblecoat/Thorncoat on you, which adds to your AoE dps. If the Swashbuckler is still getting aggro off you then he really needs to hold back... but really speaking, if you've got all those things going off you shouldn't be losing it.</p><p>Message Edited by scl on <span class=date_text>10-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:14 AM</span>

[Zhonata]

<DIV>Well for starters i don't see how u could possibly be fighting in offesive mode ( with unbridle fury on) When it lowers your defense so siginicantly (lowering avoidance by almost half [47% down to 17%]) So even in a good group this is not smart when fight any thing of a challenge.  2nd of all u said to use rampage wow 10 staters hits with bounce off dmg ( Dont get me wrong we do a crap load of damage) versues  them useing there speed buff getting 100%+ speed buff (at 60 they get close to 200%) then slap there 13 sec abilty <U>Inspired daring</U> where for ever single mellee attack they do 200 dmg no matter what ( this is basically an unrestricted version of our rampage with out the aoe effect) but seeing how i can toast my rampage in fist 4 sec of a fight they more than make up for it when they are hitting 4-5 targets at once with 160 dps, Poison dmg, PLus Inspire daring. Just to sum that up that is 4 hit ever secound (at 60) with speed buffs thus hitting inspire daring 4 times hitting, poison once (25% chance to do 300 dmg), and around 160 dmg [4hit x 40 dmg] ( this doesnt include extra poisons or gleamingstrike ) for a total of 160 + 800 + 300 = 1220 dmg ever sec for 13 sec means 15,900 dmg to ever target in there frontal arc. ( I will be generios and knock that down to 10,000 dmg, because the math doesnt always work out in EQ2) Then after 13 sec they are back down to 420 dps to every target in the frontal arc a sec. So if u think that we can out do that much aoe dmg i wouldl like to see the math cause if dont see it happening. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You clearly havnt seen this combo in action. </DIV>

[Pinche Va]

<DIV>I have significant problems keeping agro under 2 circumstances. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) When I go defensive</DIV> <DIV>2) With 1h and shield</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most cases the 2 occur at the same time, so its really gimped taunting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But when I am offensive with 2 hander in, I have 0 problems. I use Argent sword from Silent City for my 2hs. Cobalt imbued assault axe and ironwood imbued tower for 1h setup. Whether or not I use the Offending Defense, makes no difference. With 1hs/shield I simply cannot keep agro on encounters with DPS classes in group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only time that becomes an issue is when I am tanking nameds. I can tank the 60 and 62 mobs in Poets Palace just fine, but if I go 1hs/shield I will lose agro instantly. Thats with spamming all taunts and Offending Defense up. The problem with tanking nameds in offensive stance is that I get beat up bigtime. So when I try to beef up the avoid/mit with shield/stance, its time for the DPS to tame it down a bit. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ive noticed its less likely to lose agro on blue/even con mobs. The Harpy instance in Clefts for instance. I have less problems losing agro. Same with Hidden Cache or Vault of Dust. The 59 and up mobs though, I have large issues trying to keep on me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I think we need a CA or two like Devastating Press, which only work while 1h setup is in, to add to our list of taunts.</DIV>

[Zhonata]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pinche Vato wrote:<BR> <DIV>I have significant problems keeping agro under 2 circumstances. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) When I go defensive</DIV> <DIV>2) With 1h and shield</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most cases the 2 occur at the same time, so its really gimped taunting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But when I am offensive with 2 hander in, I have 0 problems. I use Argent sword from Silent City for my 2hs. Cobalt imbued assault axe and ironwood imbued tower for 1h setup. Whether or not I use the Offending Defense, makes no difference. With 1hs/shield I simply cannot keep agro on encounters with DPS classes in group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only time that becomes an issue is when I am tanking nameds. I can tank the 60 and 62 mobs in Poets Palace just fine, but if I go 1hs/shield I will lose agro instantly. Thats with spamming all taunts and Offending Defense up. The problem with tanking nameds in offensive stance is that I get beat up bigtime. So when I try to beef up the avoid/mit with shield/stance, its time for the DPS to tame it down a bit. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ive noticed its less likely to lose agro on blue/even con mobs. The Harpy instance in Clefts for instance. I have less problems losing agro. Same with Hidden Cache or Vault of Dust. The 59 and up mobs though, I have large issues trying to keep on me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I think we need a CA or two like Devastating Press, which only work while 1h setup is in, to add to our list of taunts.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Agreed, I have no problems holding any aggro single target or multiple target but i mihgt as well put a big sign saying my defense suck on my head. Offesive stance is fine for white and lower cons. But yellow and up ther start hitting pretty hard even with our mit and that avoidance is noticble. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My problem isnt with the offesinve defense it is with the defensive defense ( ie. Sword and shield - defesinve stance with controled rage and wall of wrath on.). We are so gimped that or abilty to hold aggro suffer greatly. This need to be corrected cause by nature tanking should be in defensive mode and ther is no point in us have a great fantastic defense if we can keep aggro undercontrol. It is like havinga porche and know that u can go as fast as everyone else in there sport cars but not haveing any gas to go anywhere lol.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also as far as 2hnd weapons go. I have seen the argent [Removed for Content] sword and in my opinion as a zereker we are better off with the Pristine imbued cobalt weapons with there procs. This has to do with our bounce of dmg and ever attack we have assosiating with melee. THe proc for the gleaming strike is not just pertainted to the weapon it goes for any physical damge taht u do (ie. slashing, crushing, peircing). Ever fired your bow and hit a gleaming strike pointmade. A 10 point dmg gain in my opinion isnt worth the loss of this proc, With our all of our aoe melle damage procs it is worth alot mroe to have the extra proc. When i hit rampage and proc 3 diffrent procs and a rain of thunderbolts comes down from the hevens with so many orange numbers that it looks like a bar across the screen i am assured of my decision.</DIV>

[Dashel]

Specific shield taunt sounds like a great idea to me also.  I dont have TOO much trouble holding agro, although it's certainly tougher.  Really though at 54 with Bully, Fearsome Shout, Brutal Pledge, Offending Defense, Insolent Gibe and Rescue for a single tough encounter it's not bad at all.  I can keep agro.  If you're grinding tough fights over and over it's not easy though and maybe the DPS needs to take some responsibility.Interestingly, this is one of those areas where the extra taunt ability of say a Guardian would be a class benefit.  More taunt allows the DPS to really unload.  Having said that, in EQ1 I played a ranger and learned early how to manage agro.  It was MY responsibility to manage hate and not pull it off the Warrior.  Stay at max melee range, give warrior time to gain hate, use Jolt spells that lowered my hate etc.  Perhaps Sony has that in mind now.  Not sure.  <div></div>

[Pin StNeedl]

<P>If you're losing aggro on a named heroic while in defensive mode, then temporarily switch to offensive mode and cycle through stuns (to keep the squishy alive) and taunts until you have it back, then revert to defensive mode. Switching modes takes around 1second.</P> <P>But really, there wasn't many times outside of raids where I needed to go defensive.</P>

[Rurg]

<DIV>Agro control is a pain with Defensive Stance + 1h + Shield, but it can be done.  Here is what I do if I have to open up all the defenses.  First, get set with in bow range, Offending Defense(waiting on upgrade for pearl), tell everybody wait until I say go, you pull agro before I say go, you tank it until you die(IE my healers will not heal you).  Pull with arrow. Fire Rampage, Fire Open Wounds, Fire Insolent Gibe, 10 seconds spam all my attacks Ramp gone in first 2 or 3 seconds, fire taunts, Give O.K. to come in and start pounding.  Now this is where working with a standard team comes in.  About halfway thru the mobs life, I will throw of Taunts again and we all go all out.  If somebody gets agro, I throw rescue and taunts.  I rarely lose agro, even against SoD, very rarely will my Wizard bud pull agro and that is usually when the mob is under 10%, so I throw Slay and we just really go all out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is what I do when I absolutely have to go defensive.  The other 99.5% of the time I tank in Offensive stance, if I have to back down, I will turn a stance off, finally I will drop down to Defensive and last resort is I switch to 1h and shield.  I use an Argent Bastardsword myself and have a Cobalt Greatmace.  Parsing I do better damage with Argent, but that is just me, your mileage may very depending on how much power you burn on an average fight.  Normally I have the high power in the group at the end of each fight for melees and nukers.  For those that say you should go defensive to save your healers power, well my healers power normally matches my own.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing I am interested to try if I can ever get a Mujeef Dagger of my own is what DW'ing would be like these days.</DIV>