What DPS do you typically see when tanking?

[Raahl]

<DIV>As a guardian, I'm wondering.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why am I wondering?  Brawlers who have invaded the guardian forum are stating they Berserkers do as much if not more DPS than they do.  And some are advocating having the Guardian DPS raised to that of your class.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've never been one to advocate DPS for Guardians and truthfully it really does not matter to me.  But I thought I'd give my Berserker brothers a heads up on what I was hearing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a 44 guardian I typically see an average of 40-60 DPS, with spikes as high as 120 when fighting groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Raahl on <span class=date_text>10-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:37 PM</span>

[MillsFairchild]

<div></div>A heads up on Bruisers that are complaining about Guardian DPS being too low?  heh... like I care. I haven't played my Zerker in a couple weeks, but I remember putting out 180-230 DPS while tanking even con heroics last time I checked. <div></div><p>Message Edited by MillsFairchild on <span class=date_text>10-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:40 PM</span>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MillsFairchild wrote:<BR> A heads up on Bruisers that are complaining about Guardian DPS being too low?  heh... like I care.<BR><BR>I haven't played my Zerker in a couple weeks, but I remember putting out 180-230 DPS while tanking even con heroics last time I checked.<BR> <P>Message Edited by MillsFairchild on <SPAN class=date_text>10-05-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:40 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sorry I didn't mean it that way.  They are starting to claim that you do too much DPS or at least it seems that way.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for the DPS numbers.</DIV>

[Poochymama]

Whichever Bruiser told you that either plays with [Removed for Content] out zerkers or is lying. We have about 4 CA that do between 80-250ish dmg on 20 sec recast timers. One 120-380ish move on a 1min timer and a 150-400 on a 45sec timer and a 120-800ish on a 1 min timer.

[Tuna]

<DIV>Zerker Dps is typically significant only when fighting groups of mobs.  Post lvl 50 dps is erratic because our Rampage is on a 3 min timer and greatly affects dps when used.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said, starting a fight with every ability ready to go and in offensive stance fighting yellow con mobs (I am lvl 51 mobs were 54) I did between 160-190 dps over the course of 7-8 parsed fights. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again keep in mind that I could only achieve this dps in fights when rampage was up (every 2 or 3 fights).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Am wondering what kind of dmg monks/bruisers are doing...</DIV>

[Spike]

<P>On yellow level 58's i was doing 660+ dps with rampage but when it was down i was doing maybe 200 if I was lucky and all my CAs hit.</P>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Rampage is just burst dmg once every 3 mins if nothing to rave about, every class gets burst damage in one form or another. Also please note Rhaal that each hit with Rampage is classed as a melee hit which can be Dodged, Parried and Blocked, can also be Riposted and each hit or proc with the art consumes power. It never did this until after the LU#13.</P> <P>With my new T6 imbueds im doing a constant 200 - 230 DPS np on lvl 50 <STRONG>^^</STRONG> or <STRONG>^^^</STRONG> con mobs, im lvl 50. This is in a group of 3, lvl 50 Berserker ( me ), lvl 50 Templar, lvl 40 Illusionist.</P> <P>On group mob encounters i can do anywhere from 150 - 600+ DPS because of the burst damage from Rampage, Slaughter, Berserker Assualt but these encounters range from 1 up arrow all the way down to triple down arrow con mobs, so again, anyone can basically do these same encounters with no problem what so ever.</P> <P>The real tests for DPS is on <STRONG>^^</STRONG> and <STRONG>^^^</STRONG> encounters, sustained damage over time doesnt lie. For example i parsed a Angler fight last night, i did 180 DPS ( Pristine Imbued Ebon Executioners Axe ), i wasnt tanking obviously, Cursaders in the raid did around 150, and at the top was Scouts with 350 - 400 DPS, Angler himself has 350k hp so its the perfect example of how sustianed damage doesnt lie, also the Tank we were using was a lvl 60 Guardian and he parsed the same amount of DPS as me while he was tanking which was 179.2 DPS. Also had no Enchanters on that raid.</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>10-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:46 PM</span>

[Bravesinger]

<DIV>When you hit lvl 58 you get a new "type" of Rampage, where your primary weapon will deal AE attacks for 36 secs. When you have that and Rampage, we do insane dps. And the more adds the merrier. We can easily pass 1000dps with 5 or 6 adds. Both stack, and both are on a 3 min reuse timer. With these on we can easily solo heroic encounters if they consist of alot of mobs with semilow hp. So get some lvls before they nerf it. A tank doing dps like that is not what SOE wanted... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bravesword</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 58 berserker</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

We have had very heated discussions about it in server wide channel and all they need to do is stop them from stacking and make them independant timers.

[cr0wangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>Rampage is just burst dmg once every 3 mins if nothing to rave about, every class gets burst damage in one form or another. Also please note Rhaal that each hit with Rampage is classed as a melee hit which can be Dodged, Parried and Blocked, can also be Riposted and each hit or proc with the art consumes power. It never did this until after the LU#13.</P> <P>With my new T6 imbueds im doing a constant 200 - 230 DPS np on lvl 50 <STRONG>^^</STRONG> or <STRONG>^^^</STRONG> con mobs, im lvl 50. This is in a group of 3, lvl 50 Berserker ( me ), lvl 50 Templar, lvl 40 Illusionist.</P> <P>On group mob encounters i can do anywhere from 150 - 600+ DPS because of the burst damage from Rampage, Slaughter, Berserker Assualt but these encounters range from 1 up arrow all the way down to triple down arrow con mobs, so again, anyone can basically do these same encounters with no problem what so ever.</P> <P>The real tests for DPS is on <STRONG>^^</STRONG> and <STRONG>^^^</STRONG> encounters, sustained damage over time doesnt lie. For example i parsed a Angler fight last night, i did 180 DPS ( Pristine Imbued Ebon Executioners Axe ), i wasnt tanking obviously, Cursaders in the raid did around 150, and at the top was Scouts with 350 - 400 DPS, Angler himself has 350k hp so its the perfect example of how sustianed damage doesnt lie, also the Tank we were using was a lvl 60 Guardian and he parsed the same amount of DPS as me while he was tanking which was 179.2 DPS. Also had no Enchanters on that raid.</P> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>10-06-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:46 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Hmm I did not parsed my numbers since the update, but these numbers come from a very well equipped berserker (unless I am wrong, but I think he is). I suppose the average berserker (let say with crafted/treasured items and adept 1) won't do this much and the majority is average. My point is just, don't run shouting ''berserkers do insane damage'' , I would say ''uppers berserkers do insane damage''. This is different.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Before i got my new Tier 6 weapons i only had a few Adept III's like 3 or 4, i had no fabled gear ( still dont ) and no Master I's ( still dont ). My gear armor wise was a mixture of Treasured / Legendary and my Weapons were Tier 5 Legendary.</P> <P>With Dual weild Pristine Imbued Cedar Batons i was doing around 160 - 180 dps, with my Pristine Imbued Ebon Executioners Axe i was doign around 180 - 200 dps.  Groups mobs were about the same as i showed above, 150 - 600 DPS, nothing has really changed group mob wise from just changing my weapons.</P> <P>Do keep in mind that these group mobs that we do so much DPS on are almost always down arrow groups, some are even cons as in no arrows up and no arrows down and even then i cant do over 600 DPS on those.</P> <P>Something ALOT of people dont understand also which i would like to point out is our new Offensive stance will out damage Rampage over a longer period of time when you use a very slow 2 hand weapon to increase your proc ratio of the CA ability. Now saying that, our new Offensive stance is only really useful in a group encounter, otherwise it really isnt going to show much difference on a single <STRONG>^^^</STRONG>'s or a dual encounter of 2 <STRONG>^^</STRONG>'s. Rampage is only short burst damage where our Offensive stance is sustained damage.</P> <P>So the averge Berserker at lvl 50 with similar gear to myself like i showed above should be able to do easily 150+ with out a problem on a constant basis. If he doesnt then he doesnt play his class to its full ability or is very mild on CA usage.</P> <P>Like Moorgard has stated :</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Moorgard wrote:</P> <DIV>I've chatted with Thanous about his efforts with these threads. It's an honest attempt to provide an overall perspective, but it's pretty much an impossible task to come up with a single conclusion that ranks every subclass definitively. Simply put, tanking is situational; some of the points Noah makes above help illustrate why.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you were to parse a thousand fights each of a guardian, a bruiser, and a paladin of the same level and comparable gear tanking a yellow ^^^ heroic fighter mob, you'd have good data on how those classes compare tanking that exact encounter at that level. However, such a test wouldn't show how those classes compare tanking a green x4 caster mob, or an orange x2 priest mob, or three blue ^ heroic scout mobs. Short of parsing every possible encounter, the most you can do is isolate player variables; there are just way too many possible encounter variables to isolate them easily.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before LU13, guardians could say they were the best tank in pretty much every situation. That is no longer true, but neither is it true that they always tank below other classes. There simply is no overall ranking of who tanks best, because it is intentionally situational. There is no "tanking index" that can provide a valid result, and focusing on only two numbers (avoidance and mitigation) won't give you an accurate assessment of the big picture. In fact, it would be quite misleading.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>In groups, most people agree that any fighter can tank well. Player skill becomes the determining factor in who is "best," and if you ask me that's how it should be. But even so, there are simply some situations were certain tanks have a chance to excel, and that is completely intentional.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Crusaders do have lower physical avoidance, but they have the highest resists to arcane damage types. Against caster mobs, crusaders have an inherent advantage that most people tend to leave out of their parsing. Again, comparing just physical avoidance and mitigation is far from the only way to judge a tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brawlers do exceptionally well tanking single-target encounters that do physical damage. They have less tools to manage multiple mobs at once, however. Obviously they have a lot of self-oriented utility, but abilities like feign death and instill doubt have very limited use in most groups or raids. Their higher damage counters their disadvantages at holding aggro from multiple targets.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Warriors have the most tools to grab multiple streams of aggro and safely lock them down. This in turn allows other members of the group more freedom to unload damage (especially AoEs) that they might have to manage more carefully with another type of tank. Guardians in particular have the most tools to generate pure hate that gets reliably applied across entire encounters.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>The whole avoidance vs. mitigation argument will never have a resolution. It was around way before LU13 and will still be debated long after. There is no way to say X mitigation always equals Y avoidance in every situation because there are so many other factors involved. For example, epic targets at level 50 and above generally have a +to hit mod that helps them overcome player avoidance. Color con has an even more tangible effect. Obviously the more you depend on avoidance, the more these factors affect you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Considering how the different fighters are playing out so far, we're pretty happy with where tanking is right now. I wouldn't expect sweeping changes to any particular class as to how they tank, though of course all abilities are subject to adjustments and tweaking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is not to say that everything is perfect or that nothing will change. Some fighters are a bit weak in damage output at lower levels, so we'll be adding an offensive stance that should help early in the game. And as I've noted elsewhere, crusaders need the ability to put something in their ranged slot to balance out stats a bit more. We'll keep watching all the classes and will make changes where they are needed. But keep in mind that "need" is based far more on in-game results than on numbers tabulated in any spreadsheet.</DIV></DIV> <P>===========================<BR>Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard<BR>Game Designer, EverQuest II</P> <P></P> <HR> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=21303#M21303" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=21303#M21303</A></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The yellow section is in regaurds to us, now a Guardian has strong AoE taunt abilitys because his AoE taunts have no damage tied into them, take there Hold The Line series, there is no damage tied into them like ours has and a Guardians is a 50% chance to proc when recieveing damage where ours is 20% because ours causes damage on the proc as well as hate generation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our ability to do so much damage to group encounters is what is needed for us to maintian agro like a Guardian can with his pure AoE taunt abilitys. Its designed like that to balance the difference between a Guardian and a Berserker because we are a more offensive class, if we didnt do the amount of damage we do to group encounters we proablly wouldnt keep agro as good as a Guardian on group encounters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our chance to excel is with in group encounters, thats what we are made for.</DIV><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>10-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:23 AM</span>

[Sabin the Gre]

<DIV>I would have to echo the feelings of many in this forum.  While tanking groups we will do a heap of dps.  I for one use offensive stance and RGF while tanking to help eak out every bit of damage I can.  This is effective with 1 healer and 4 other dps's and I can chain pull yellow heriocs (oranges aren't worth it).  Every 3 minutes I can absolutely [Removed for Content] a group of 3 or more.  But if you even compare rampage on a group of 3 x ^ mobs vs rampage on a group of 2x  ^^ mobs you'll see an amazing difference in dps, and this disparity gets even larger the larger the group you are fighting is. </DIV> <DIV>Now with regards to comparing us to a bruiser, at the top end of the spectrum (fables, masters, etc.) berserkers can do bruiser comparible dps.  However, I qualify that by saying that in general on single or two target herioc groups a bruiser will do more damage.  On three + target mobs a berserker will do more damage.  So rather than saying its black and white its more apples and oranges.  Basically the larger the group and the shorter the fight the better it fairs for berserker dps (try Zek, King Zatan, or the Feerott raids), but the fewer the targets you have the better it will be for a bruiser.  Overall though, I think that damage is very well balanced now.  This may change at 58, but in the low 50's its looking fairly well thought out.</DIV>

[Poochymama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tuna99 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Zerker Dps is typically significant only when fighting groups of mobs.  Post lvl 50 dps is erratic because our Rampage is on a 3 min timer and greatly affects dps when used.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said, starting a fight with every ability ready to go and in offensive stance fighting yellow con mobs (I am lvl 51 mobs were 54) I did between 160-190 dps over the course of 7-8 parsed fights. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again keep in mind that I could only achieve this dps in fights when rampage was up (every 2 or 3 fights).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Am wondering what kind of dmg monks/bruisers are doing...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Very true, on AOE encounters we can do some insane dps. But for single target Bruisers will be far superior.

[Lalaya]

imho its all about proc-buffs. Many classes can buff a single groupmember with one or another proc (i.e. assasins can give you a poison-dot, triggering when hitting successfully) and when i get lots of those i really do VERY nice dps, even when defensive. Without those procs dps isn't quite as high and overall i think it a fair compensation for taking more damage than guardians do. <div></div>

[Moralpanic]

<span><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div>Our ability to do so much damage to group encounters is what is needed for us to maintian agro like a Guardian can with his pure AoE taunt abilitys. Its designed like that to balance the difference between a Guardian and a Berserker because we are a more offensive class, if we didnt do the amount of damage we do to group encounters we proablly wouldnt keep agro as good as a Guardian on group encounters.</div> <div> </div> <hr></blockquote> That's fine and dandy, but if you were to make a group, who would you choose?  A guardian who gets aggro by simply taunt, especially multiple mobs aggro... or a berserker who gets aggro by doing good DPS to those same mobs? If we're going to all have equal tanking abilities, then give us equal DPS and equal utilities as well then.</span><div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moralpanic wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>Our ability to do so much damage to group encounters is what is needed for us to maintian agro like a Guardian can with his pure AoE taunt abilitys. Its designed like that to balance the difference between a Guardian and a Berserker because we are a more offensive class, if we didnt do the amount of damage we do to group encounters we proablly wouldnt keep agro as good as a Guardian on group encounters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's fine and dandy, but if you were to make a group, who would you choose?  A guardian who gets aggro by simply taunt, especially multiple mobs aggro... or a berserker who gets aggro by doing good DPS to those same mobs? <BR><BR>If we're going to all have equal tanking abilities, then give us equal DPS and equal utilities as well then.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I take it your a Guardian.......What your missing is we dont do a great deal more DPS then a Guard on single target encounters, like Moorgard said, " Guardians arent flashy " or " there more or less unsung heroes ".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our tanking abilites are not the same, controlling agro is equal because of Berserkers being more offensively based, Guardians still out tank a Berserker who can control agro just as well by using there stronger taunts. Your Defense buffs have a much much less negative effect where we on the other hand have to sacrafice very large amounts of Offensive ability to have them enguaged, not too mention our Defense buffs are single target only and only last 36 seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We get similar buffs to a Guardian but there just not as powerful and we have to sacarfice alot in some cases and in the end our tanking buffs only last 36 seconds besides our main Defensive Stance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The DPS scale is measured the same for every class, there is a scale in every arch type. You have the best DPS at one end, and then you have the worst with in that arch type at the other. Berserkers fall behind Monks / Bruisers because we do more DPS then the rest of the Fighters but we do it at a cost in tankability.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Damage potential is weighed against tanking ability and yes i believe Guards need some of there arts adjusted, like there Intercept line needs to mitigate damage for there utility to be more of a purpose to them. At the moment all Guardians i talk with dont even use the skill, its basically worthless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a test we did Angler the other night and i thought to myself ill use my Intercept skill on the MT which was a Guardian, the 1 hit i intercepted did 3600 damage to me and im in full cobalt, thats just a indication of why they dont use them.</DIV>