Goodbye raid tankablilty, Hello World of Warcraft! /finger soe

[Memmoch]

<div></div>I made my zerker with one purpose in mind, to raid tank for my guild.  Since the new revamps I would be doing my guild a injustice if I raid tanked for them instead of the guardian in my guild with the exact same gear as me.  Why?  Cause even with me going stamina/hp mod's with every class/race trait and him going with agi on all of the traits he still has about 400 more hps than me!  What's worse?  Now he's also got a good 9% MORE avoidance (that means a ton more agi btw) than me.  To top it off he's also got more mitigation than I do!!!!!!  Here's something else I noticed, you know the "hp regen" we get with our 2 spells?  With both at adept 3 I'm regening incombat for 49hps a tick.....now look up the spells and you'll be like "hey wait a tic, thats supposed to give you 97pts of regen a tic!!!"  Well here's some more great news, they don't.  I've not been able to narrow which one is not working properly but with both up I only show myself healing myself for 49hps a tick.  This is [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], with this update we was supposed to loose some of our DPS (which we did) and gain a more balanced and EQUAL footing tanking wise compared to guardians.  Since the  update all I've seen is how second class we are now in everything, monks/bruisers deal out more DPS than we do (they are tanks as well) and pally's tank about as well as  we do with guardians haveing a very clear advantage in EVERY situation.  And no, you can not say that against cold based mobs we tank better, cause we may resist better but  taking damage from those huge combat abilites and straight melle hits puts us  in the  back of the line between guardian/berserker debates.     I used to have a leg to stand on when it  came to decideing which should tank raid mobs but now it's no contest, even I have to admit that guardians are better tanks than berserkers. Having said all that this is what's going to happen on my server and in my guild if things don't get staightened out.  I'm going to loose interest in this game, then  my guild will loose interest and all of us with our multiple accounts  (SOE if you think this is hollow warning check out the  petitions on my server...) will move on to  a different MMO and try and forget the god awful experience that was Sony's EQ2.  Berserkers the orginal way  they was released was fun,  you could compete at several different positions in the raid line up.   You could be a raid  MT, you could be the off tank, you could be the  straight up DPS whatever the situation called for.    Now, you can   be......well you can be another body to fill the ranks.... <div></div>

[Ellow]

Hey good luck with your easy mode no class diversity cookie cutter pos game called WoW. That game is the biggest mmo joke i ever wasted over a year on. I do not know whats worse, the game, or me paying them to waste my time. If you think SoE wrecked the zerker, sure go play WoW , the class devs on WoW dont even play the classes they nerf or "fix" , thats a fact. Enjoy 0 diversity and fotm boosts. <div></div>

[Dashel]

<P>Well, as long as you're not over reacting   </P> <P>:smileyhappy:</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Ellow]

well everything i said in the post is true, harsh, but definitely true. They are completely clueless to class development. I just find it funny though when people say that someone ruined a class on  game and that they are going to cancel and move to WoW, a game that is worse than any mmo for class dev. <div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ellowan wrote:<BR>well everything i said in the post is true, harsh, but definitely true. They are completely clueless to class development. I just find it funny though when people say that someone ruined a class on  game and that they are going to cancel and move to WoW, a game that is worse than any mmo for class dev.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yeah thats why they have over 4 million subscriptions.</P> <P>I just find it funny when people think they know how well a game performs with out even had tried it. This is obviously a personal opion, a very distasteful one at that.</P> <p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>09-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:32 AM</span>

[Ellow]

<div></div>of course, i played through the betas, i worked with the dev team, i even played during release and just stopped last month, ya... what do i know. go play wow then. Of course if they have 4 million subscribers it has to be awesome....  thats bs. Half of these subscribers are asian, seeing blizzard is huge in korea and the other asian countries. Numbers mean squat. If you like the game thats great, opinions differ. Whether you like it or not doesnt mean they have a clue about class development which is my point. So if you wish to debunk me, learn how to argue properly ( which involves you actually reading what im saying).  Fact is, class balancing sucks... case and point. Say SoE doesnt know what they are doing and tuck tail and run to blizzard. Have fun with that. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ellowan on <span class=date_text>09-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:43 PM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Memmoch wrote:<BR> <P>I made my zerker with one purpose in mind, to raid tank for my guild.  Since the new revamps I would be doing my guild a injustice if I raid tanked for them instead of the guardian in my guild with the exact same gear as me.  Why?  Cause even with me going stamina/hp mod's with every class/race trait and him going with agi on all of the traits he still has about 400 more hps than me!  What's worse?  Now he's also got a good 9% MORE avoidance (that means a ton more agi btw) than me.  To top it off he's also got more mitigation than I do!!!!!!  </P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Guards have a HP buff and can buff there Defense higher then us which is the reason for more avoidance, has nothing to do with Agility. By the way, there Defense buffs are group buffs.<BR></FONT><BR>Here's something else I noticed, you know the "hp regen" we get with our 2 spells?  With both at adept 3 I'm regening incombat for 49hps a tick.....now look up the spells and you'll be like "hey wait a tic, thats supposed to give you 97pts of regen a tic!!!"  Well here's some more great news, they don't.  I've not been able to narrow which one is not working properly but with both up I only show myself healing myself for 49hps a tick.  </P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Destructive rage is a constant HP regen, Blood Boil you need to be taking damage for it too proc to make it start regening.<BR></FONT><BR>This is [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], with this update we was supposed to loose some of our DPS (which we did) and gain a more balanced and EQUAL footing tanking wise compared to guardians.  Since the  update all I've seen is how second class we are now in everything, monks/bruisers deal out more DPS than we do (they are tanks as well) and pally's tank about as well as  we do with guardians haveing a very clear advantage in EVERY situation.  And no, you can not say that against cold based mobs we tank better, cause we may resist better but  taking damage from those huge combat abilites and straight melle hits puts us  in the  back of the line between guardian/berserker debates.     I used to have a leg to stand on when it  came to decideing which should tank raid mobs but now it's no contest, even I have to admit that guardians are better tanks than berserkers.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>I think you need to look at it like this, Guardian, Pally, SK, Berserker, Monk, Bruiser. In order of tankability to DPS output seeing tankability is weighed against damage potiental. We were never made to tank like a Guardian or do DPS like a Monk / Bruiser, we are in the middle and are the kings of AoE melee damage with in the Fighter line.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>You do still have a leg to stand on, just know it requires some extra attention and some more thought. Nothing wrong with a bit of a challenge.<BR></FONT><BR>Having said all that this is what's going to happen on my server and in my guild if things don't get staightened out.  I'm going to loose interest in this game, then  my guild will loose interest and all of us with our multiple accounts  (SOE if you think this is hollow warning check out the  petitions on my server...) will move on to  a different MMO and try and forget the god awful experience that was Sony's EQ2.  <BR><BR>Berserkers the orginal way  they was released was fun,  you could compete at several different positions in the raid line up.   You could be a raid  MT, you could be the off tank, you could be the  straight up DPS whatever the situation called for.    Now, you can   be......well you can be another body to fill the ranks....</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Its a pity you see it this way indicating you dont understand the reason why the combat changes were put in or you chose to ignore it and just want the over powered Berserker back that you had pre combat changes.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Im not going to speak on behalf of the Berserkers, but i have been playing this game since day 1 release back in October 2004, and im having the most fun at the present time with how our class is now.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Sorry you feel that way and good luck with WoW, its not a bad game, its quite good, but i like EQ2 better.</FONT><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Ellow]

<div></div>his points however valid they are, going to WoW will not change disappointment in classes. They are fun at first but extremely limited so is content. The nerfstick swings at an alarming rate, some it done under the table and not even posted about. Paladins are not even played by anyone at blizzard yet they nerf / hotfix to their hearts content. They rushed a release on WoW to compete with EQ2s release, in fact 2 of classes in the current beta had just been put in game and had no development at all. You can attack me all you like even though i speak negatively im still actaully objective and speaking the truth. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ellowan on <span class=date_text>09-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:51 PM</span>

[Memmoch]

<P>Aonein, of course in the eyes of those that play the guardian class this was a "much needed change and well thought out by Sony"......hell guardians no longer have anyone to compete against except other guardians!  Where's the diveristy in that?  The berserker's out there that also support this change only support it because they allowed themselves to be sold short, and was fooled into believing the lie's that guardians spread about berserkers not being able to tank as well. </P> <P>People that support the changes to the berserker class are without a doubt the very same people that scream on the boards that guardians are the best raid tanks before the updates as well, trying to hide the FACT that under the old system a berserker could tank raid lvl mobs as well as if not better in certain situations than guardians.  Under the old way we could not take sustained dmg as long as a guardian could maybe, but what we could do is take it just a fraction less effectivly as guardians while holding aggro a TON better.  In a guild that knew the truth and was willing to take advantage of it this meant that berserkers could raid tank and the raid as a whole could dump out a ton more DPS to drop the mobs alot faster.  Our guild weighed the differences between me tanking raid mobs (berserker) against a fellow guildie same lvl/same gear guardian tanking raid mobs and decided that in our guild setup with the members we had that I was best for this role</P> <P>Under the new system we are NO LONGER AFFORDED THAT CHOICE.  Guardians have more hps, get better mitigation and have better avoidance than we do.  I proved it between the guardian and myself in my guild, as I previously posted.  So now that SONY has clearly elvated the guardian class as THE choice for raid lvl content.....where's the diveristy in that?  Is it in the names of the guardians?  lol, They have essentially reverted back to EQ1 in many ways, they have destroyed a class that was very fun to play.  Sure that fun was partly in proving that the guardians was NOT the ultimate tank, but that just bolstered each respective player  to learn it's class more in detail to maximize the strength's of the class.  This meant more attention and less boredom because you knew that there was ANOTHER class nibbing right over your shoulder for the chance to prove that they could also raid tank.</P> <P> </P> <P>So don't come to the berserker board and attempt to justify the reason's Sony gimped....no destroyed the Berserker class, it holds no weight here.  My post was based off of frustration, frustration in the fact that Sony gaureenteed one thing and then turned around 9 months after and redid a class I enjoyed playing.  I have 3 alts on my berserker class, not a one is lvl 24, not a one has seen a quarter of the play time that my berserker did.  I came here because I wanted to make one last plea to Sony to correct the grevious error of making it so that guardians are the prime choice in all situations to be raid tank.  Check my posts out before the change, I've always tried to help other berserkers realize their true potential and I even did a post one time where I laid out exactly what Sony had written down about the berserker class in a effort to educate those that did not understand just how well we could tank.  I've spent many many hours learning the abilities of the berserker class, in order to be the best raid tank for my guild.  That I have tanked epicx4 mobs for my guild was a huge source of pride I had in the way I developed my berserker.  To have Sony come through and destroy my class in one swipe, leaving us without any of our formal potential irks me.  Even if World of Warcraft was a MUD, after this kind of base undermining from Sony to our class I would choose it over continuing to play a class that will never be anything more than a single group tank (when there's no guardians around).</P>

[Memmoch]

<P>I used World of Warcraft as a attention getter for Sony, because they need to KNOW that the people that are paying them to play their game KNOWS that World of Warcraft has a much higher client base.  They need to know that WoW is not something that is a fad like linage2 was, but a game that was very well thought out and put together, as evident in their numbers each quarter.  I wanted SOE to understand that if they do things like this they should expect repercutions, and not just the kind where you re-roll your char.  If they make these changes permanent, with no tweaking to bring classes like the berserker class back into where it's a valid choice for the core design of the class then people will stop paying SOE and take their money somewhere else.   What SOE should be doing is taking their orginal idea, and working their collective [Removed for Content] off to bring this game under that.  Why can't you have 2 Heavy Tanks that tank almost exactly the same, with the biggest difference simply being the kind of buffs they bring to the group?  That's called diveristy, making it so that you do not have to follow the exact same path as everyone else in order to achieve something.  You should NOT be forced to have to lvl up a fighter then go warrior then guardian in order for you to tank epic encounters.  You SHOULD have more than ONE choice on what path you go, as you used to be able to do.  You could go Defensive tank, where you buff your 'group' defensivly or you could go 'offensive' tank, where you buff your group offensivly.  Berserkers WAS a offensive Tank....that is what we used to be.....<U>used</U> to be.</P>

[-Aonein-]

<P>From what you have posted here Memmoch is called Guardian envy. Honestly if you want to tank like a Guardian make one, nothing is stopping you from making a Guardian to tank like a Guardian.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Tankability</FONT> <FONT color=#ff6600>===></FONT> Guardian, Paladin, ShadowKnight, Berserker, Monk, Bruiser <FONT color=#66ff00><===</FONT> <FONT color=#66ff00>Damage Potential</FONT></P> <P>Im not going to get into a argument with you because you clearly only see it one way, your way, but i will say this. We are more of a offensive tank now then we were before the changes, if you cant see it, then you need more time to relearn how to play a offensive style.</P> <p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>09-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:57 PM</span>

[Davish_Darkwolf]

Im not happy with all the changes they made, we lost in HPs and speed....  but then again it was a change as a whole. But overall, it was a good change for Berserkers. I actually feel more like a Zerker now, we are kings in AOE melee damage and are far more offensive oriented now than before, just like a Zerker should be. You know what? Pre-patch, people complained about Guardians being the only choice for MT.  It wasnt true, Zerkers did their MT job perfectly. Now people again complain that Guardians are the only MT choice, again Zerkers are doing their MT job perfectly. Are they equal Main Tanks?   No, but they are different classes.  You can still MT,  you will probably waste more healers mana,  but your mobs will surely go down faster. Zerkers are not broken,  we never were btw.

[blueduckie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>From what you have posted here Memmoch is called Guardian envy. Honestly if you want to tank like a Guardian make one, nothing is stopping you from making a Guardian to tank like a Guardian.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Tankability</FONT> <FONT color=#ff6600>===></FONT> Guardian, Paladin, ShadowKnight, Berserker, Monk, Bruiser <FONT color=#66ff00><===</FONT> <FONT color=#66ff00>Damage Potential</FONT></P> <P>Im not going to get into a argument with you because you clearly only see it one way, your way, but i will say this. We are more of a offensive tank now then we were before the changes, if you cant see it, then you need more time to relearn how to play a offensive style.</P> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>09-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:57 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That sounds nice on paper but parse some pls. Bruisers doing most dps and taking the least amount of dmg currently. Guardinas arnt taking dmg any better than a zerker unless your fighting blue mobs then we might be from defense buffs. However yellow+ a ranger even tanks as well.<BR>

[Stuntie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Davish_Darkwolf wrote:<BR><BR><BR>Are they equal Main Tanks?   No, but they are different classes.  You can still MT,  you will probably waste more healers mana,  but your mobs will surely go down faster.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sums it up well.<BR>Though faster dead mobs can often help conserve healer mana that would have lost in a longer fight.</DIV> <DIV>Tell them to think of it as quick burst healing rather than steady drawn out healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seems the OP wanted to take the damage as well as a Guardian. Well we don't, that what the Guardian specialises in. But I bet you can outdamage him.</DIV> <DIV>Guardians tough it out taking the pounding. We give the pounding right back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I'm not a sit and take it kind a guy, more an Axe in face person, which is why I chose Bezerker in the first place.</DIV>

[Ellow]

Well, im still new to eq2, the purpose of my post however was that you will not find better pastures in WoW. However I can definitely understand your irritation. The other reason I left WoW was to play eq2 for a specific reason. Its kind of funny, kind of sad really, but i reactivated my acoount about 4 days before DoF was released. Why did i come to EQ2? To make a monk...  I was thinking i was going to play a character that was a martial artist, something along the lines of the original monk of EQ1. Then i saw the patch notes...   So ya i can feel your pain. As someone that has always played Monks, I cant understand the reasoning behind SoE's current ideas for classes. Making every single Fighter line class more of a tank friendly class with less dps was their idea. I remember them saying that, however they nerf the hell out of some of these classes  avoidance and mitigation. Oh well. I htink they will change some things. After all if most people want to do melee damage, as a non tank, they will roll an assassin and be done with it.  Afterall, what is the point of a berserker being a MT over a Guard/Pal/SK ? The idea in most lore for fantasy rpgs is that berserkers are reckless with crap AC/Mitigation. They do huge dmg, have huge HP pools, yet they take hits and do little to absorb. Should a class like this be able to tank? If by tank you mean steal aggro and burn the mana of everything that can keep him/her healed sure. Due to the fact that there are so many other melee classes, pallies, sk's, monks, bruisers, SoE really has their hands full making roles for these classes. Afterall a Monk certainly should be able to tank better than a zerk, should do close to the amount of dmg, but definitely tank better because it should dodge / mitigate more. However SoE does not want monks to be like eq1... [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]?!?    I personally see no reason to pick these other classes now unless they can tank or heal/tank. May as well be an assassin, it sucks when you are pigeonholed.  I still think though they will bring balance to the classes, the xpac has been live for like a week, thats it.  They are still collecting feedback. Even if they rushed out and did something, it would be hastey. Every class fix affects other classes. You overpower 1 to [Removed for Content] 3-4 others, so they have to consider every other fighter to do so. Not to mention whether or not it will bring about farming exploitation. Anyhow i have a law class to prep for, good luck to you, hopefully u have an alt or patience. <div></div>

[kr8ztwin]

<DIV>Well I'm not really ranting here.  I love my new zerker and I am really enjoying the changes.  My only concern is the order yall have for tanking.  I think the current system of avoidance vs mitigation is still a bit screwy because my brother's assassin waaaay out tanks my zerker vs yellow con mobs.  He is running a 66% avoidance and I watched him take 2 groups in hideout with no issues and he barely got hit heh.  This was on difficult settings for him (he is lvl 35).  If I run regular hideout and I get 2 groups on me I'm very lucky to survive it.  Also, he is in defensive stance and doing ungodly damage....jealousy! heh.  (if i run defensive stance + shield I miss all to often and my damage drop is substantial)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know they did patch the scaling avoidance thing but grrrr he is still way out tanking me heh.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> blueduckie wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>From what you have posted here Memmoch is called Guardian envy. Honestly if you want to tank like a Guardian make one, nothing is stopping you from making a Guardian to tank like a Guardian.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Tankability</FONT> <FONT color=#ff6600>===></FONT> Guardian, Paladin, ShadowKnight, Berserker, Monk, Bruiser <FONT color=#66ff00><===</FONT> <FONT color=#66ff00>Damage Potential</FONT></P> <P>Im not going to get into a argument with you because you clearly only see it one way, your way, but i will say this. We are more of a offensive tank now then we were before the changes, if you cant see it, then you need more time to relearn how to play a offensive style.</P> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>09-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:57 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That sounds nice on paper but parse some pls. Bruisers doing most dps and taking the least amount of dmg currently. Guardinas arnt taking dmg any better than a zerker unless your fighting blue mobs then we might be from defense buffs. However yellow+ a ranger even tanks as well.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yes there is a problem with Bruisers mainly atm, they even Tank better then a Monk which is suppose to be the other way around.</P> <P>They will no doubt adjust it.</P>

[pasht]

<span><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<div></div> <p>From what you have posted here Memmoch is called Guardian envy. Honestly if you want to tank like a Guardian make one, nothing is stopping you from making a Guardian to tank like a Guardian.</p> <p><font color="#ff6600">Tankability</font> <font color="#ff6600">===></font> Guardian, Paladin, ShadowKnight, Berserker, Monk, Bruiser <font color="#66ff00"><===</font> <font color="#66ff00">Damage Potential</font></p> <p>Im not going to get into a argument with you because you clearly only see it one way, your way, but i will say this. We are more of a offensive tank now then we were before the changes, if you cant see it, then you need more time to relearn how to play a offensive style.</p> <div></div><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class="date_text">09-19-2005</span> <span class="time_text">05:57 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote> Ok maybe I missed some stuff, but when I check the two Palas in my guild (both lvl 50 and both similar equiped like myself) I dont get why they should be better in tanking then my Berserker? They have less Hitpoints and (not sure anymore have to check this) less mitigation/avoidance then my toon. So still I'd say its like: Guardian, Berserker, Paladin/ShadowKnight, Monk/Bruiser like it was before. Also the patch message said: Highest HP Pool / Lowest Mana Pool => Monk/Bruiser Medium HP Pool / Medium Mana Pool => Guardian/Berserker Lowest HP Pool / Highest Mana Pool => Paladin/Shadowknight The Pala had around 400-500 HPs less then I have (ok I totaly speced for HP/mitigation/avoidance as much as possible) So what did I miss? </span><div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> pashtuk wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>From what you have posted here Memmoch is called Guardian envy. Honestly if you want to tank like a Guardian make one, nothing is stopping you from making a Guardian to tank like a Guardian.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Tankability</FONT> <FONT color=#ff6600>===></FONT> Guardian, Paladin, ShadowKnight, Berserker, Monk, Bruiser <FONT color=#66ff00><===</FONT> <FONT color=#66ff00>Damage Potential</FONT></P> <P>Im not going to get into a argument with you because you clearly only see it one way, your way, but i will say this. We are more of a offensive tank now then we were before the changes, if you cant see it, then you need more time to relearn how to play a offensive style.</P> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>09-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:57 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ok maybe I missed some stuff, but when I check the two Palas in my guild (both lvl 50 and both similar equiped like myself) I dont get why they should be better in tanking then my Berserker? They have less Hitpoints and (not sure anymore have to check this) less mitigation/avoidance then my toon. <BR>So still I'd say its like:<BR><BR>Guardian, Berserker, Paladin/ShadowKnight, Monk/Bruiser<BR><BR>like it was before. <BR><BR>Also the patch message said: <BR>Highest HP Pool / Lowest Mana Pool => Monk/Bruiser<BR>Medium HP Pool / Medium Mana Pool => Guardian/Berserker<BR>Lowest HP Pool / Highest Mana Pool => Paladin/Shadowknight<BR><BR>The Pala had around 400-500 HPs less then I have (ok I totaly speced for HP/mitigation/avoidance as much as possible)<BR>So what did I miss?<BR><BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You missed the part where we were told we fall in behind Monks / Bruisers for DPS meaning tankability is weighed against damage potential, which pretty much makes Paladins fall in behind a Guardian. Just like the chart i displayed above.</P> <P>I wouldnt be trying to concern HP into the equation anymore now, like you said, you went all out HP where the Paladin on the other hand has to go concentrate on STA / STR / INT, what id be most concerned about is agro control, have you tried to take agro of a Paladin who is MT now? Not too mention that they cant be as any where near offensive as we can.</P> <P>Also they get self wards, so the loss of 400 - 500 HP for self heals + self wards sort of negates the fact you have 400 - 500 HP then them.</P> <P>The way it was before was broken, you had Berserker being a very versatile character, could fill many roles that others couldnt, now its much more balanced except for the fact that Bruisers are tanking like a Plate class, id say thats about the only flaw atm.</P>

[pasht]

<span><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote: <p>You missed the part where we were told we fall in behind Monks / Bruisers for DPS meaning tankability is weighed against damage potential, which pretty much makes Paladins fall in behind a Guardian. Just like the chart i displayed above. </p> <p><font color="#6666ff">Ok thats maybe the problem of the language, I kinda missunderstood your Idea behind the chart <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font> </p> <p>I wouldnt be trying to concern HP into the equation anymore now, like you said, you went all out HP where the Paladin on the other hand has to go concentrate on STA / STR / INT, what id be most concerned about is agro control, have you tried to take agro of a Paladin who is MT now? Not too mention that they cant be as any where near offensive as we can. </p> <p><font color="#6666ff">Nope didnt play with em yet, but in the case of aggro control Im still thinking in the way EQ1 worked (yeah its old I know) but if someones tanking people, should have a look at their DPS to not gain aggro, thats a big Issue nowadays since most DDs didnt have to look at this yet but will have in the future. And if someone else Tanks I wouldnt even think about of getting aggro <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font> </p> <p>Also they get self wards, so the loss of 400 - 500 HP for self heals + self wards sort of negates the fact you have 400 - 500 HP then them. </p> <p><font color="#6666ff">Im not sure if that matters on Raids, maybe they got enough Mana to get their Wards up and keep aggro but I didnt see this in action yet and I care more about Raids then about exp groups (doesnt matter whos MTing there IMHO as long as he knows what hes doing)</font> </p> <p>The way it was before was broken, you had Berserker being a very versatile character, could fill many roles that others couldnt, now its much more balanced except for the fact that Bruisers are tanking like a Plate class, id say thats about the only flaw atm.</p><div></div><hr></blockquote>bah gotta go to training now, 8-) Pashtuk </span><div></div>

[Espyderman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Memmoch wrote:<BR> I made my zerker with one purpose in mind, to raid tank for my guild.  Since the new revamps I would be doing my guild a injustice if I raid tanked for them instead of the guardian in my guild with the exact same gear as me.  Why?  Cause even with me going stamina/hp mod's with every class/race trait and him going with agi on all of the traits he still has about 400 more hps than me!  What's worse?  Now he's also got a good 9% MORE avoidance (that means a ton more agi btw) than me.  To top it off he's also got more mitigation than I do!!!!!!  <BR><BR>Here's something else I noticed, you know the "hp regen" we get with our 2 spells?  With both at adept 3 I'm regening incombat for 49hps a tick.....now look up the spells and you'll be like "hey wait a tic, thats supposed to give you 97pts of regen a tic!!!"  Well here's some more great news, they don't.  I've not been able to narrow which one is not working properly but with both up I only show myself healing myself for 49hps a tick.  <BR><BR>This is [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], with this update we was supposed to loose some of our DPS (which we did) and gain a more balanced and EQUAL footing tanking wise compared to guardians.  Since the  update all I've seen is how second class we are now in everything, monks/bruisers deal out more DPS than we do (they are tanks as well) and pally's tank about as well as  we do with guardians haveing a very clear advantage in EVERY situation.  And no, you can not say that against cold based mobs we tank better, cause we may resist better but  taking damage from those huge combat abilites and straight melle hits puts us  in the  back of the line between guardian/berserker debates.     I used to have a leg to stand on when it  came to decideing which should tank raid mobs but now it's no contest, even I have to admit that guardians are better tanks than berserkers.<BR><BR>Having said all that this is what's going to happen on my server and in my guild if things don't get staightened out.  I'm going to loose interest in this game, then  my guild will loose interest and all of us with our multiple accounts  (SOE if you think this is hollow warning check out the  petitions on my server...) will move on to  a different MMO and try and forget the god awful experience that was Sony's EQ2.  <BR><BR>Berserkers the orginal way  they was released was fun,  you could compete at several different positions in the raid line up.   You could be a raid  MT, you could be the off tank, you could be the  straight up DPS whatever the situation called for.    Now, you can   be......well you can be another body to fill the ranks....<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Funny, i know a 50 Guardian who is saying what your saying about the guardian class. That guardians are no longer the MT's nor zerkers and only Monks and bruisers are better now.

[infernus006]

Aye, very strange comments from the OP here considering that all the 50+ Guards I know indicate that they are very displeased with the CC right now and complain that they can't seem to take hits nearly as well as they used to be able to whereas I'm having a blast with the changes and tanking mobs just as well if not better than I used to be able to.  Go figure.<div></div>

[Ethelwo]

It's the group regen Destructive Rage that doesn't provide any regen. It may for group members, but it certainly doesn't for my Berserker. The other Proc regen is working.

[Memmoch]

Aonein=Sony employee <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> Seriously though, how can you honestly say that we can tank anywhere nearly as good as we used to be able to?  That's just....well dumb. I am not suffereing from guardian envy either, all the plate classes seem to of gotten improvments while we have had our decreased.  I made my berserker to be a raid MT, as it stands now what are we?  We're not raid MT's, we're not the best choice for single group tanks, we're for sure not DPS.....that leaves us as being....? Extint in my opinion lol. Once again a big fat /FINGER SOE <div></div>

[Zhonata]

<DIV>I think the real point here is that u made your beserker for one thing and then SOE has decided that that want it to do something else and the bottum line is that SOE can do what ever they want. No matter how many countless hours i have spent, or u, or anyoen else playing a class that we chose for its traits. I think that it is extremly unproffesional of SOE to make such drastic changes to the class it like me paying for sports car and getting station wagon.  I dont know who SOE is tryign to kid, this wasnt a revamp or a balancing this was a CLASS CHANGE. As Aonein has clearly stated our postion has been moved or abilties changed and our attributed modified. We are no longer the bezerkers.... we are something else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aonein i do not see how u can justify this but what ever makes u sleep better at night. I obviously chose this class for a reason and spent the time and effort to reach 50 for its traits for what traits it use to have. Our new combat regen is a joke toatlly end of story it need to be increase. Our dmg is completly dependant apon being MT and yet u say we are fourth in line to the postion this to me makes no since. Once more we take alot more dmg than the other class i assume that the combat regen was supsoe to counter this well it doesnt. It doesnt makes since. HAs anyoen tried dueling well i have i have battle almost every class and every class has a leg up on us because they have class dfining attributes. I can jsut about kill ever class..... that is jsut about ever class i have fought i have gotten RED everyone of them but as is we do not have the abitlty to finish of any one of them. Now granted u can buff yoru self to kindgdom come with potions and put special armorm o nfor each class but the other class never did that it doesnt make since htat i should have to change my load out evr time i fight someone if they dont have to. Also we have liek no Utilities we havea couple stund wow that great , NOt. The original postion were supose to be gurdian bezerker as Heavy Tank, Palidin Shadowknights as medium tanks, and monk and brusiers as low level tanks that is the order originally. Now with the obvious changes that order u have displayed is apparent but makes no since. As <SPAN><FONT color=#ffffcc><FONT color=#ffffff>Memmoch said  there is no reason </FONT></FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>why the gurdian should have competion for the mt slot  this is why there are 2 subclass for ever class. And i am not suffering from gurdian envy either i actually rather liked beign secondary to a gurdian. I like beign able to pull the aggro off him if him when  was about to die with out trying and then lettign them reclaim it once at full life i rather respected gurdians. Our abilty to be versitile WAS OR CLASS DEFINING TRAIT !! Now u say we are AOE KING and i have lie kwhat 1 aoe............ and counter attacks lol that is laughable. that like sayung schout using poison is ther class defining trait.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>As i see it the changes can be modified to fix this problem with the bezerk without going back to the old over power beserker as it is now left alone the bezerker class is a gentic reject that i would take out back and shoot several times in the head.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Its quite clear that alot of people just simply are not willing to try new things and revise new strats. There stuck being the one button wonders they once were.</P> <P>Before the combat revamp, the game was too easy, too bland, not enough challenge and was a button mashers game. Now its a hell of alot more challenging, you cant mash buttons with out thinking about it and blowing all your power then losing agro cause you cant taunt.</P> <P>Zhonata.......you think we have 1 AoE? This is a <STRONG><U>perfect</U></STRONG> example of people not understanding the class.</P> <P>People are ethier not even trying, or tried and failed and said " ok thats it i quit ".</P>

[scl]

<font size="2" face="Comic Sans MS"><p></p></font><blockquote> <hr><b>Zhonata said:</b><p>blah, blah, blah... i have lie kwhat 1 aoe... blah, blah, blah</p><hr></blockquote><p>Thats the funniest thing I've read all day! Are you serious or simply insane? Here's a small tip for you.. stick Rampage and unbridled fury on and open a fight with Stunning Roar... goodbye group. I've done upwards of 500 dps solo.</p><p></p>

[Buggrit]

The problem comes down to SoE in the end they rushed this game out to compete with WoW i mean they only tested the game for 2-3 weeks? i think that was how long beta was and it wasn't long enough thats why we had to go through this massive Combat change i think think they should of spent a little more time looking at the class's  and designing them. If they had did that i don't think we'd have the problems we are facing right now I play WoW also and find it incredibly fun no its not exaclty balanced but fun<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> to the people who say WoW is [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] erm hello notice anything in Eq2 that seems familar ? In journal now says heroic quest if it is or not hmm wonder where that idea came from oh yeah WoW Quest journal Stances hey wait don't warriors get stances in WoW?? theres other things i cannot be bothered to list The fact is WoW has over 4 million subsribers world wide were as Eq2 only has 400 thousand probally less u could argue the fact there asian  but hello they have the choice to play Eq2 also? It seems to me the Eq2 designers are trying to make it more like WoW if u remember the promise there will never be any pvp in Eq2 and now we have duels granted its not real pvp but its still pvp which they said would never happen. The main reason people left Eq2 for WoW was because of pvp and other things the fact is what it all boils down to is Eq2 rushed there game out to soon it wasn't balanced  people left for WoW and now there trying to remedy it. Im pretty sure they knew they were going to loose people with these combat changes but also gain people i guess they wouldn't of done if they thought they were going to loose more people than gain? <div></div>

[kono]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Buggrit wrote:<BR>The problem comes down to SoE in the end they rushed this game out to compete with WoW i mean they only tested the game for 2-3 weeks? i think that was how long beta was and it wasn't long enough thats why we had to go through this massive Combat change i think think they should of spent a little more time looking at the class's  and designing them. If they had did that i don't think we'd have the problems we are facing right now<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I was in beta from July 10 (2004) until release, which was right around four months.  That would have been enough time, except they had a very large number of fundamental changes in the final weeks of beta, similar to what we just saw at the end of DoF beta.  Let's just say this was not the first combat revamp, and I don't expect it to be the last.</P> <P>najena.konk</P>

[infernus006]

"Has anyoen tried dueling well i have i have battle almost every class and every class has a leg up on us because they have class dfining attributes. I can jsut about kill ever class..... that is jsut about ever class i have fought i have gotten RED everyone of them but as is we do not have the abitlty to finish of any one of them." Um yeah I have...a 50 wizard, 50 warden, 50 inquisitor, 50 brigand, and 50 bruiser...and I beat all of them (I was 50 myself at the time).  Go figure...there must be something seriously wrong with you.  Maybe you just suck at the game, ever thought about that? <div></div>

[Ellow]

<div></div><b><i> The problem comes down to SoE in the end they rushed this game out to compete with WoW i mean they only tested the game for 2-3 weeks? i think that was how long beta was and it wasn't long enough thats why we had to go through this massive Combat change i think think they should of spent a little more time looking at the class's  and designing them. If they had did that i don't think we'd have the problems we are facing right now.</i></b> Dude, WoW was rushed...  period.  At the end of beta, they opened up the hunter class, they had spent no time at all on it, they just stuck it in right before release. In fact they wree not the only class that was rushed. Paladins, throughout beta, did not even talents. In fact, noone at blizzard even plays one nor has, with the exception of Fangtooth, who just recently made one and is like level 14. WoW has had to do so many "balance" patches and nerfs because they rushed the release and released classes that do not function properly and have skill trees and traits that do or did, not work. Just now recently thety are admitting this, only due to people pointing it out constantly. <b><i>The fact is WoW has over 4 million subsribers world wide were as Eq2 only has 400 thousand probally less u could argue the fact there asian  but hello they have the choice to play Eq2 also?</i></b> SoE has a big base of asian fans? They have eq cartoons and cereal and other merchandise that is all over households of korea and other countries? I know blizzard does. Its not uncommon to turn on the tv and see people playing starcraft. They have all kinds of money pouring in from these countries. Does SoE get funded from these as well? Probably not. <b><i> It seems to me the Eq2 designers are trying to make it more like WoW if u remember the promise there will never be any pvp in Eq2 and now we have duels granted its not real pvp but its still pvp which they said would never happen. The main reason people left Eq2 for WoW was because of pvp and other things the fact is what it all boils down to is Eq2 rushed there game out to soon it wasn't balanced  people left for WoW and now there trying to remedy it.</i></b> This game is nothing like WoW. In WoW i can be level 60 in a 1.5 weeks. I am level 30+ by day 2. This is with work and school. EQ2 is nothing like that. Everything is completely candyland there. In EQ2 you can actually get lost. In WoW you are guided step by step through every little thing. Not that this is a bad thing, dont get me wrong. PvP? EQ has always had some form of pvp whether it be dueling or a pvp server or a guild war on a non pvp server there was always some form of it. As for duels, that was to be expected from day1, seeing that dueling is not pvp at all. If anyone rushed a product it was WoW. MAny classes were completely useless up until these past couple months. You mention balancing? I see 3x the amount of classes available to play in eq2 vs WoW and not all are the same builds. In WoW practically all classes are clones of everyone else. The differences being race. Why? Lack of Balance. i.e. level 60 feral druids. The only person who would play one, would be somoene that is anti guild, anti intelligent and or stubborn. Why ? because it does not work, and it makes the character worthless to end game content events. Thats just an example. Go play WoW though, have fun. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ellowan on <span class=date_text>09-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:14 AM</span>

[kr8ztwin]

<P>was messin with buffs and equipment yesterday and I don't see why ppl say we suck so bad as tanks in general.  I am in treasured and legendary eq (no fabled) and I can buff my avoidance to 44.5% and my mitigation to 2100 and 3800hp.  (more with the 30s 1.5min recast mit buff).  I've checked stats on other classes with comperable eq (ie paladin and guard) and these stats are very similar (and even better).  With a re-check avoidance buff from an off-tank and proper healing, why shouldn't we be able to raid tank like anyone else?  Maybe I need to do more research heh.</P> <P>I know right now raids are either buggy or theres a trick we don't know yet though because raid mobs are just slappin the heck outa everyone.  heh.</P>

[Wolfmist]

<DIV>I'm not sure if it's just that lower level zerkers are having trouble or what, but I'm doing great.   I can tank well and do damage, so for me it's great.  If there is higher DPS in the group I use more defensive arts and still do very, very well.   However, I wouldn't think of tanking in a high level large raid.   That's a guardian's job anyway and I could do more damage.  I do like to off tank when we get more than a few after us and it works out well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There seems to be a few disgruntled people, but I'm not one of them.  I think SoE did a great job.   </DIV>

[Buggrit]

ok so i agree with you there yes WoW was rushed and so was EQ2 yes i meant Eq2 was rushed in they made last minute changes and only tested them for a week i didn't auctally play beta im just going from what i have heard<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> however u can't deny they said Eq2 will never have pvp and a couple of months later we have pvp so to speak they realised alot of people left chose WoW over Eq2 because of pvp There are WoW european servers and american WoW servers atleast 1 million-1.5 million europeans play WoW the asians play on the american WoW so they throws that argument out the window the fact is they have ripped things from wow but there again WoW has ripped things from the orginal everquest My main point was if they had not rushed them last 2 weeks and took abit more time testing and designing we would not have this great combat revamp as for me i quit my berserker and made like 40g from all his legendary gear and now have a lvl 21 Assassin Which i am having alot of fun <div></div>

[Zhonata]

<DIV>I am both serious and insane mate both good qualities for a beserker,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First of all i am upset about the changes yes were they sudden yes did they change EVERYTHING that i have worked for for 8 months yes. I have a right ot be upset with this and i am but i have and still am tring to play with this class. ( with a monk to keep me somewhat sane on the side )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sci buddy im srry mate we have Stunning Roar, Beserk  Ambush and Slaughter ( check there timers that hardly makes us king's). Rampage, Unbridle fury, amd Offending Defence (while are AOE's) are all dependant apon us being the tank which makes abosolutly not since at all since we are almost at the bottum of the tnking pole now. I stated quite clearly taht we do ALOT of dmg (outdmging most classes) when we are tnking but when we arnt we do around 100-150 dps that is it.  When we are tnking we have 2 choices one we can fully tnk and take a pretty good beating (But still not as good as a Gurdian) but sacrifice anything resembling DMG or we can do dmg and sacrifice anything that resembles DEFENSE. Our abilty to hold aggro is soloy dependant apon getting the first hit in and being HIT we cant pull off fellow grp members very well ( if they have already acrued aggro)unless rescue is used obviously. I have played the chacter i have use the abilties and i have examained the output values  this is all there is boys and girls. You denie any of what i jsut have said u either are full of it or havnt truly played the chacter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Which brings me to Dueling which is fun would be more fun if it was even. Ok lets look at our dmg is based off mostly being hit. Now scout can invis and do lots of dmg from that state. Mages can nuke us in 2 hits. Healers well  are nightmare to all so enought said but mystics and defilers excepically cause there wards prevent our counter attacks from doing dmg. Finally other fighter we are outclassed by almsot all of them expecially Monks and bruisers. We really have no utilties and as i have stated before the combat regen is a joke. Now keeping in mind everyone i have faced aside from the monk i have brought down to red using various tatics and what not but none of this is with equipment changes. Now i have played arena alot with grps and am pretty sure that is funiest time i have ever had on my beserker i went 14/0 and was at least 6 above anyoen else at any match in my grp which means i was kicking a** and taking names, but then again this is a grped event and i was dependant apon my grp buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Aonein- i understand the class perfectly well. What I have stated here is fact period plan and simple ( Good and Bad ) and in your next post, i would like you to address that fact that our dmg is relaint on us beign tnks but yet in SOE's grand plan we are almost at the bottum of the tnking pole.  Where does this leave us in grp gasp* think about raids. Wow we bring str and 84 health per tick gasp* amazing. Dont take this personally but u seem to be the main defense for the changes so i want to see your explanation on this maddness.<SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><SPAN><BR></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>

[kono]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zhonata wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sci buddy im srry mate we have Stunning Roar, Beserk  Ambush and Slaughter ( check there timers that hardly makes us king's). <FONT color=#ff0000>Rampage, Unbridle fury, amd Offending Defence (while are AOE's) are all dependant apon us being the tank</FONT> which makes abosolutly not since at all since we are almost at the bottum of the tnking pole now. I stated quite clearly taht we do ALOT of dmg (outdmging most classes) when we are tnking but when we arnt we do around 100-150 dps that is it.  When we are tnking we have 2 choices one we can fully tnk and take a pretty good beating (But still not as good as a Gurdian) but sacrifice anything resembling DMG or we can do dmg and sacrifice anything that resembles DEFENSE. Our abilty to hold aggro is soloy dependant apon getting the first hit in and being HIT we cant pull off fellow grp members very well ( if they have already acrued aggro)unless rescue is used obviously. I have played the chacter i have use the abilties and i have examained the output values  this is all there is boys and girls. You denie any of what i jsut have said u either are full of it or havnt truly played the chacter.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'll go ahead and deny the highlighted portion, and risk your ire. :smileyvery-happy:  Rampage and Unbridled Fury are <U>not</U> dependent on being in a tanking role, rather, they're actually <EM>more</EM> effective when you're <EM>not</EM> being targeted by every mob in the encounter.  </P> <P>Rampage now triggers melee strikes, meaning that it is advantageous to be behind some or all of the encounter targets in order to prevent parries, blocks, and ripostes.  Unbridled Fury is obviously best suited for a non-tanking role, because of the loss of defense.</P> <P>The only AE in our arsenal that depends on being in a tanking role is Offending Defense.  Weapon Shield may also technically fit this description, since it can hit any of the mobs who are attacking you.</P> <P>najena.konk</P>

[Poochymama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>From what you have posted here Memmoch is called Guardian envy. Honestly if you want to tank like a Guardian make one, nothing is stopping you from making a Guardian to tank like a Guardian.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Tankability</FONT> <FONT color=#ff6600>===></FONT> Guardian, Paladin, ShadowKnight, Berserker, Monk, Bruiser <FONT color=#66ff00><===</FONT> <FONT color=#66ff00>Damage Potential</FONT></P> <P>Im not going to get into a argument with you because you clearly only see it one way, your way, but i will say this. We are more of a offensive tank now then we were before the changes, if you cant see it, then you need more time to relearn how to play a offensive style.</P> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>09-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:57 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>The problem with that system is it doesnt work for raids. In a raid the only one of those classes that actually is usefull is the guardian.</P> <P>Even if we are th3 3rd best dps of the fighter class that still doesnt give us a usefull role in raids.</P> <P>The original poster is right. The only thing we can provide to raids is tanking, but if another class can do it better, then we will never even have the chance to have fun. </P>

[Poochymama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stuntie wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Davish_Darkwolf wrote:<BR><BR><BR>Are they equal Main Tanks?   No, but they are different classes.  You can still MT,  you will probably waste more healers mana,  but your mobs will surely go down faster.<BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sums it up well.<BR>Though faster dead mobs can often help conserve healer mana that would have lost in a longer fight.</DIV> <DIV>Tell them to think of it as quick burst healing rather than steady drawn out healing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seems the OP wanted to take the damage as well as a Guardian. Well we don't, that what the Guardian specialises in. But I bet you can outdamage him.</DIV> <DIV>Guardians tough it out taking the pounding. We give the pounding right back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally I'm not a sit and take it kind a guy, more an Axe in face person, which is why I chose Bezerker in the first place.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It doesnt matter at all if we do more dmg than them cause were not gona be invited to a raid to do dmg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Instead well just get some lame excuse as to why we cant come.</DIV>

[scl]

<font size="2" face="Comic Sans MS"></font><blockquote><hr><b><i>Zhonata said:</i></b><p>...Rampage, Unbridle fury, amd Offending Defence (while are AOE's) are all dependant apon us being the tank...</p><p></p><hr></blockquote>*looks at konofo, shakes his head and looks back at Zhonata* You didn't just write that did you? Tell me I didn't just read that... please!!<p></p><blockquote><hr><b><i>-Aonein- said:</i></b><p>Tankability ===> Guardian, Paladin, ShadowKnight, Berserker, Monk, Bruiser === Damage Potential</p><p></p><hr></blockquote>I know you're just passing info on -Aonein-, so this isn't a go at you at all but that gauge is false. Heck, I know people who have chosen a pet to tank over a Paladin. *laughs*<p>Message Edited by scl on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:17 AM</span>

[scl]

<font size="2" face="Comic Sans MS"></font><blockquote><hr><b><i>Poochymama p said:</i></b><p>It doesnt matter at all if we do more dmg than them cause were not gona be invited to a raid to do dmg.</p><p></p><hr></blockquote>Actually, it does matter. As Stuntie said, we may not be able to take the punishment a Guardian can, but the mobs die quicker with us tanking. It kind of evens out you see. Healers have to heal quicker when we tank, but they have to heal less. It's called balance, remember... that thing the Dev's keep talking about?<p></p><p>Message Edited by scl on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:23 AM</span>

[Ru]

<span><blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote: <blockquote> <hr> -Aonein- wrote: <div></div> <p>From what you have posted here Memmoch is called Guardian envy. Honestly if you want to tank like a Guardian make one, nothing is stopping you from making a Guardian to tank like a Guardian.</p> <p><font color="#ff6600">Tankability</font> <font color="#ff6600">===></font> Guardian, Paladin, ShadowKnight, Berserker, Monk, Bruiser <font color="#66ff00"><===</font> <font color="#66ff00">Damage Potential</font></p> <p>Im not going to get into a argument with you because you clearly only see it one way, your way, but i will say this. We are more of a offensive tank now then we were before the changes, if you cant see it, then you need more time to relearn how to play a offensive style.</p> <div></div> <p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class="date_text">09-19-2005</span> <span class="time_text">05:57 PM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <p>The problem with that system is it doesnt work for raids. In a raid the only one of those classes that actually is usefull is the guardian.</p> <p>Even if we are th3 3rd best dps of the fighter class that still doesnt give us a usefull role in raids.</p> <p>The original poster is right. The only thing we can provide to raids is tanking, but if another class can do it better, then we will never even have the chance to have fun. </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Maybe if all things are equal. But, we are talking theory here. We had a similar discussion in my guild yesterday. The reason I picked a Half Elf female for my Berserker, is because I think it's funny as hell when you are in a pickup group, and out tanking someone who picked a "proper race" and the "best class", and they get all huffy cause a little girl is doing a better job then they can. Just being a Barbarian/Ogre Guardian doesn't mean you are going to be the best tank. Gear, and skill play a major role. Good gear of course means a lot. But, so does skill. Having more defense than god means nothing, if you aren't being hit. A MT needs to be able to hold aggro. It's easy to hold aggro agains one mob, but what if you are fighting 10? Who's going to do a better job then? I'd say,the one that procs an AoE taunt, has rampage, and several AoE attacks. In my guild, Berserkers are the main raid tanks. Seems to work just fine. There is very little we can't take. And, if we can't, it is usually not the tanks fault. It's lack of intelligance. After a few trys, we will figue the key out.</span><div></div>

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div>"<font color="#ff6600">Tankability</font> <font color="#ff6600">===></font> Guardian, Paladin, ShadowKnight, Berserker, Monk, Bruiser <font color="#66ff00"><===</font> <font color="#66ff00">Damage Potential</font>" <p><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff">Yeah, that is way wrong.  I dunno who made this up but that is just not right at all.  I remember Moorguard or someboday from SOE actually did post a chart similar to this before the expansion was released to indicate what their intentions were of how things were supposed to be amongs all the tanking classes post expansion but I believe it was more like this: </font></font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ff0000">Tankability ===> Guardian/Berserker</font>, <font color="#ff6600">Paladin/Shadowknight</font>, <font color="#ffff33">Monk/Bruiser <=== Damage Potential </font></font></font></p> <p><font color="#66ff00"><font color="#ffffff"><font color="#ffff33"><font color="#ffffff">The slashmark between the two subclasses indicating *equality* between the two.  I wish I could find that post again.  However, keep in mind, it's not to say that a Guardian is supposed to be able to tank better than a Bruiser in every case since the extra damage that a Bruiser puts out does help to compensate for the fact that he can't take as much damage.</font></font></font></font></p><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:49 AM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> infernus006 wrote:<BR> "<FONT color=#ff6600>Tankability</FONT> <FONT color=#ff6600>===></FONT> Guardian, Paladin, ShadowKnight, Berserker, Monk, Bruiser <FONT color=#66ff00><===</FONT> <FONT color=#66ff00>Damage Potential</FONT>"<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The only problem with this is Bruisers are tanking just as good as a Guard and doing twice as much DPS as them, thats not balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like i said in another post, group wise, damage dealt from mobs seems fine to me, i can tank no problem what so ever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Epic raid boss mobs is a whole different kettle of fish. Moorgard has already said that if you come across epic encounters that seem way overpowered for the intended amount of people that are attempting it to /bug report it so they can do further tests on it.</DIV>

[SirPrec!ze]

<DIV>Devish says:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <FONT color=#ff6600>Are they equal Main Tanks?   No, but they are different classes.  You can still MT,  you will probably waste more healers mana,  but your mobs will surely go down faster.<BR></FONT></DIV> <P><FONT color=#ff6600><FONT color=#ffffff>Thats not always a good thing especially in epic fights cause of the riposte dmg.</FONT></FONT></P> <DIV><BR></DIV>