Two Handers or Dual Wield?

[khurath]

<DIV>Ok, as the title says I really don't know if it's better to have a two hander or two weapons.</DIV> <DIV>Basically, from what I saw two weapons seems more effective, but it may be only an impression.</DIV> <DIV>I tried with both stances, offensive and defensive, and anytime it seems that my damage output is higher with two weapons.</DIV> <DIV>I read though that the weapon procs are affected by the weapon's delay, and some people on this forum say that higher damage weapons proc higher damage with the offensive stance.</DIV> <DIV>I examined my Fury, but it says that you proc ## - ## dam 10% of the time (I don't remember exact damage, but it's not weapon-related), so it seems to me that hitting more often would proc more often for a higher damage output.</DIV> <DIV>Anybody can explain exactly how it works and their personal preference (and why) of 2H vs Dual Wield?</DIV> <DIV>Thanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>lvl 30 Kerra Berserker</DIV> <DIV>Oasis server</DIV>

[Fundi]

     Dual wield is better hands down if you can find good dual wield weapons.  Offensive stance has a 10% chance to deal damage when we hit a mob, and you're hitting a lot more when you have dual wields.  Offending Defense has a 20% chance to proc when we hit.  Dual wield owns 2h when you're dpsing. 

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>Fundinn wrote:     Dual wield is better hands down if you can find good dual wield weapons.  Offensive stance has a 10% chance to deal damage when we hit a mob, and you're hitting a lot more when you have dual wields.  Offending Defense has a 20% chance to proc when we hit.  Dual wield owns 2h when you're dpsing.  <div></div><hr></blockquote> ??? Was this changed in the revamp?</span><div></div>

[kono]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Fundinn wrote:<BR>    Dual wield is better hands down if you can find good dual wield weapons.  Offensive stance has a 10% chance to deal damage when we hit a mob, and you're hitting a lot more when you have dual wields.  Offending Defense has a 20% chance to proc when we hit.  Dual wield owns 2h when you're dpsing.  <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>First, Offending Defense is a defensive proc, not offensive.  It doesn't matter what you're swinging, or even that you're swinging at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, the chance to fire an offensive proc is normalized against a 3-second combat round.  Do some long-term parsing and you should find that both weapon arrangements fire your offensive stance's proc at a similar rate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>najena.konk</DIV>

[Sokolov]

<span><span><blockquote><hr>konofo wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Fundinn wrote:    Dual wield is better hands down if you can find good dual wield weapons.  Offensive stance has a 10% chance to deal damage when we hit a mob, and you're hitting a lot more when you have dual wields.  Offending Defense has a 20% chance to proc when we hit.  Dual wield owns 2h when you're dpsing.  <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <div>First, Offending Defense is a defensive proc, not offensive.  It doesn't matter what you're swinging, or even that you're swinging at all.</div> <div> </div> <div>Also, the chance to fire an offensive proc is normalized against a 3-second combat round.  Do some long-term parsing and you should find that both weapon arrangements fire your offensive stance's proc at a similar rate.</div> <div> </div> <div>najena.konk</div><hr></blockquote> Also: Additional strikes due to haste and CAs are not normalized, thus, a slower weapon actually ends up proccing "more."  If you use a longbow to pull you will find it almost always procs something on the pull shot due to it having higher delay than melee weapons. I personally used 2-hand weapons nearly exclusively prior to the revamp.  Since the revamp tho a shield significantly improves tanking performance so it's 1hander and shield for me sometimes, and 2-hander other times.  Dual Wield does not even enter the equation.</span></span><div></div>

[Kodachi]

I dont parse (cause im too lazy), but I had noticed that I proc less often with dual wielders than with a two hander, which I thought was really weird but your explanation makes sense.   I had read once that to compare dmg modifiers on your dual wield weapons you should take the dmg rating of your primary hand and add about 40% of the damage rating of your off hander.  If this number is not higher than your damage rating on your two hander, then its not as good.   Maybe the parsers out there can confirm or deny that.  The theroy is that dual wield is a skill that doesn't always go off, and your off hander will only swing about 40% of the time. I have never really dual wielded, but about to finish SSoY quest and have a SBD in the bank so I thought I would try those out vs my cedarwood bo staff with gleaming strike.  Pretty sure they wont compare though.  Also agree with above poster that for tanking hard monsters the shield makes a big difference, so also need to have a good onehander handy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Indya 47 Berserker Rat <div></div>

[kr8ztwin]

<P>I parse slightly higher with a 2-H in DPS and I also receive less damage.  You get risposted much less on basic melee.  </P> <P>I think I also hit more melee damage with a 2-h because of the long weapon delay letting me throw combat arts inside em and I get less (lag) in attacks.</P>

[xandez]

<div></div><blockquote><hr>Fundinn wrote: Dual wield is better hands down if you can find good dual wield weapons. Offensive stance has a 10% chance to deal damage when we hit a mob, and you're hitting a lot more when you have dual wields. Offending Defense has a 20% chance to proc when we hit. Dual wield owns 2h when you're dpsing. <div></div><hr></blockquote> I would have to totally disagree with Fundinn in this issue. Imho, a 2-hander is hands down way better than dual wield weapons if it comes JUST to the terms of DPS. Why? Many of the above posts already explain why so i wont go into details. Things like lesser ripostes, proc rate actually HIGHER (yes since the 3s thingy) and the fact that you dont _miss_ melee attacks while using long cast time skills (like 2s barrage) are a factor. Also, i happen to love 2-handers (since i already use dual wielders with my scout already i dont wanna use em with my zerker even if they were even with the 2-handers or better) ++Xan

[Dashel]

2 handers vrs DW.  My rule is:  Use whichever is better, upgrade whichever is worse.   I like to carry a whole range of weapons.  Main priority is to get yourself at least one each of legendary Slash Pierce and Crush type.  Right now I'm still using the SSoY and SBD because they were still a nice combo when I stopped playing and havent upgraded yet.  They still do fine for me.  Some friends gave me a nice new 2 hander though so I'll likely switch over to that more often.  Rujarkian Steel Axe is the name I think.  <div></div>

[Medd]

I used the SDB and the PGT until i got my EBBC, so i think that two handers are better as far as damage goes. Oh, and i never bothered with the SSoY becuase the ward proc on the PGT helps alot when soloing or tanking.

[-Aonein-]

<P>When Dual Weilding now your Primary weapon does more damage then your offhand does. I can out damage a Berserker with a 2 hand weapon no problem at all now.</P> <P>Riposte rate to 2hand riposte rate is comparable, nethier will get you killed faster then the other unless the mob has a Damage Sheild on, then Dual Weilding is dangerous.</P> <P> </P>

[GurgTheBash]

<DIV>In another thread, I just did a comparison of zerker melee with dual and two-hand, using figures obtained from my mid-30's experiments.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I worked from average melee swing for 2 hand of 75 (50-100 dmg per swing with weapon in hand, 2.5 second swing) and 25 per weapon for duals (20-30 dmg per swing, 1.2 second swings unbuffed), GS imbued weapons, and ONLY the 10% countering-strike buffs figures, since SKILL strikes do the same damage (based on spell level), recast at same rate, and so on, regardless of what you're using.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I arived at is that between imbued procs, the berserking resulting from being hit, and so on, is basically a 1500 - 1600 damage difference between using two-hand and duals, to the advantage of the dual user.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At 43 (current level), if I buy cheapie two-hand and cheapie dual off arms merchant, to compare, my DPS/attack rating is actually higher with the duals, as well...so I suspect this difference is steady all the way up levels, though I'm not in a position any longer to buy best GS imbued two-hand weapon for 40-50 use I can find AND best GS imbued dual-wields so I can do direct test on myself...but what I CAN say, from duelling, is that I have yet to lose to a berserker using anything other than duals, if he's within 3-4 levels of myself, even if that level advantage puts him in next tier gear (three duels against level 42 and 43 berzerkers using two-handed imbued weapons when I was 39...worst one, I had 38% HP and 24% power remaining when she dropped)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On the OTHER hand...a pally with one-hand and shield makes me work my bloody barbarian butt off, and often manages to chain-stun/impede movement often enough to kill me before he's had a need to waste power on self-heals. Berserker skills that "interrupt" casting and are available to dual wielders don't fire off fast enough to balance this.</DIV>

[Stuntie]

<P>Big Axe. <BR>Big big big big sharp shiny axe.</P> <P>Anything else is for girls and elves. <BR>How can you aim to be a raving homicidal maniac without an axe.</P> <P>Don't care if someone brings proof that anything else does better damage. I like me axe.</P>

[GurgTheBash]

<DIV>You know what's better than one axe? TWO axes that you can indiscriminately flail around at everything in the area with, slashing and bashing until you're knee-deep in blood and gore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dualies win again :robotmad:</DIV>

[Ethelwo]

If your soloing or tanking you need a one hander and a shield or you avoidance will be the pits and you'll be to stunned to hit with any weapon. For the dps roll, it really depends on your choose. both duel and 2hnder yield good dps results. Of course the new cobalt duel wield weapons have very nice stats and damage. Haven't seen a cobalt 2hnder yet.

[SirPrec!ze]

<DIV>It all depends on what kind of dw and 2 handers u have. But i still notice that my 2 handed pris does more damage than 2 cedar quarterstaffs but i still like using the quarterstaffs for the nice graphics on em <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by SirPrec!ze on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:30 AM</span>

[GurgTheBash]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ethelwolf wrote:<BR>If your soloing or tanking you need a one hander and a shield or you avoidance will be the pits and you'll be to stunned to hit with any weapon. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I haven't seen this to be true through RoV, Nek Castle, Zek, EL, RE, Rivervale, Feerrott, CT, or Lavastorm...I get interrupted in casts on the two spells I regularly use that have long casts (the AEs), and if I try to use stunning cry or cold retribution, they often get interrupted, too, but I am rarely stunned into losing melee, nor are my other skills impeded at all, since they cast so quickly...I solo just fine against anything up to 3 levels higher than me that cons "normal", groups of 4-5 white-con "normals", singleup heroics two levels down, doubleup heroics 5 levels down, and so on, and tank just fine in CT against the 49 tripleup trios and the summoner's pet, with a 4 person group consisting of myself, mystic/warden/fury, and a pair of nukers, noone over 43, and the healer just 38, in one case (XP rocks, when I do this, too)...plus the added DPS of dual wield means I hold aggro better, and less often have to cast like crazy to reaquire it after the ukers chain-blast the targets.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MIGHT turn out to be true in EF and above...but I haven't been in yet to try it.</DIV>

[z2xm]

<P>For me I feel as if DW is doing more damage for me.</P> <P> </P> <P>In my parses I noticed that there was not a huge gap between the two so I sort of just go with whatever I feel like at the moment.  Currently I am either DW two cedar crudgels, or the BBC (plain version, non electrified) so part of it for me is that the BBC lacks a damage proc of its own, I have a feeling the two would be close enough to matter very little if I had a good proc on my 2h.  The damage rating is the same, but the crudgels win out with their combined 26 agi and 16 str.  So for me it is more of going with slightly better stats and what I feel appears to do more damage based on in game factors (how quick stuff dies, how much damage i take, how much power I use, etc...)</P> <P> </P> <P>That being said I pretty much only use either of those when solo or duo or in a trio with no healer.  Otherwise I use the SBS and SM/cedar club.  I feel like in a larger group there are other classes who are now so much better at dps then me that I am better off catering to my stregth, which is taking damage and not dieing.  I use the offensive stance if there are 2 healers, unless they still seem to have problems healing me, though I only notice this happening with poor choices of healer combinations such as two of the same or two that do not compliment each other.</P> <P> </P> <P>Jinos</P> <P>L D'L</P>

[Link27]

<P>the stats on the 2 handed tend to be better than the dual weild.</P> <P>There's very little reason to go anything but RGF, if you dont have prismatics. the proc is insane damage, and it gives +27 STR, and i think its +24 STA.</P>

[GurgTheBash]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Link27 wrote:<BR> <P>the stats on the 2 handed tend to be better than the dual weild.</P> <P>There's very little reason to go anything but RGF, if you dont have prismatics. the proc is insane damage, and it gives +27 STR, and i think its +24 STA.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yeah...but are they enough better to match the stats on a pair of DW weapons? That's what really matters, you know.</P> <P> </P> <P>If you find a 2H that does 10 str, 4 wis, 6 agi, 8 sta, it's stats boosts compare equally with a pair of DW that EACH do 5 str 2 wis 3 agi and 4 sta, after all...</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>As for DPS matching for melee figures... use this calc to compare weapons:</P> <P> </P> <P><STRONG># of hits per cycle you'll make with this weapon equipped / average delay * damage range</STRONG></P> <P> </P> <P>That will give you the "bare bones" DPS of the weapon</P> <P> </P> <P>so...say you're looking at slashing weapons, 30-40, and you notice (I'm gonna list crap weapons with no stats and no procs, to do this) </P> <P>Feyiron Greatsword    2H      16-49 dmg     2.5 seconds</P> <P>Feyiron Scimitar         1H        7-22 dmg     1.3 seconds</P> <P>Feyiron Short Sword   DW     4-12 dmg     1.2 seconds</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Well, what you'll get is this: With dual wield, you hit once with each weapon per cycle, and cycle every 1.2 seconds, so base melee DPS  figures to compare go like this:</P> <P> </P> <P>Feyiron SS ( 2 / 1.2 ) 4 - ( 2 / 1.2 ) 12 = (1.6666~ * 4) through ( 1.666666 * 12 ) damage per second, or  6.666~ - 20 DPS "rating" on using the pair</P> <P>Feyiron Sc ( 1 / 1.3 ) 7 - ( 1 / 1.3 ) 22 = ( 0.769 * 7) through ( 0.769 * 22 ), or 5.38461 - 16.923 DPS "rating" on weapon</P> <P>Feyiron GS ( 1 / 2.5 ) 16 - (1 / 2.5 ) 49 = ( 0.4 * 16) though ( 0.4 * 49 ), or 6.4 - 19.6 DPS "rating" on the weapon</P> <P> </P> <P>The <EM>actual</EM> DPS for the weapon, is, of course, dependant on what your stats boost the "your hands" range to...but if they're all slashign weapons you're looking at, your slashing rating and stats aren't going to change by changing weapons that don't have stats, so those are the comparisons on the damage ranges of those weapons on a per-second basis if they're each placed in the hands of the same person.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>As you can see form above, matching melee on a 2H vs dual wield is pretty close...marginally favors the DW, if all other things are equal, but I've found that comparing stats boosting DW and 2H of the same ltier/rarity tends to give a SLIGHT advantage to the DW, and, as I'm trying to convince Sabin in another thread, gives the oppertunity, with imbueds, to double the number of procs you can expect...the only real diff in melee effect is how big a jump the mob's health bar makes downwards every time you swing...with DW, it tends to drop steadily and slowly, with 2H, it drops fitfully in bigger jumps.</P> <P> </P> <P>Also, since you rarely fight a mob for 100 seconds, you're more likely to make crits on each mob using duals than when using 1H/2H, even though thos crits are comparitavely smaller...I'd rather do an additional 33 damage per 33 seconds of fighting through crits than an additional 99 damage every 99 seconds of fighting, because, generally, that means I kill EACH mob faster, rather than being slow on two, and ripping through every third.</P><p>Message Edited by GurgTheBashur on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:36 AM</span>

[Stuntie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ethelwolf wrote:<BR> Haven't seen a cobalt 2hnder yet. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>A lot of the Cobalt recipes are bugged at the moment, including the Executioners Axe I believe.</P> <P>Expect to see them when the fix arrives.<BR></P>

[-Aonein-]

I seen a Pristine Cobalt executioners axe tonight. Has a 62.7 dmg rating, stats arent much better then ebon, 62 hp and 64 power. 2.7 delay.

[Larsenex]

<DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4>This is my experience and I am a 39 Zerker on AB server. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4>Sword N board (Pristine imbued Feysteel assault axe & Pristine imbued Oak tower shield)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4>Two hander (Pristine Imbued Greatsword)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4>DW (PGT and pristine imbued oak fighting baton)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4>I have fought Orcs in Zek since 33, and Combat went into effect at 34. This is what I have found, I am just noticing things. I tried many combos of stances on/off. What I have found hands down (for me) is Greater Fury+Two hander is the BEST combo for me when soloing! In any other combo my health goes down MORE than if I use that combo. I  get MANY procs with the Fury line with my sword and I rule over multi-encounter mobs such as bears and deer. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4>I can even take green no arrow HEROICs with this combo!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4>I own Gaurdians of EQUAL lvl with this combo! (my best friend is 39 guardian and it wasnt even close in dual).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4>When I tank in group I always use defensive and sword n board but when I am back up tank or soloing I will go 'all the way' offensive and it really does work for me.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4>Hope my input helps.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4>PS I base my info on rate of mob killed vrs my hps at end of any given melee. I take on solo ^ white con orcs and Orange no arrow orcs and Two hander is the way for me..</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=4>Thanks again.</FONT></DIV>

[GurgTheBash]

<DIV>funny, I find with DW, I can solo tripleup blues on the last level before they go green, or, in Feerrott, at level 43 I was soloing heroic level 37 5 parties of lizardmen (no arrows) and level 38 four parties of heroic no arrow thule stars.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My combo for this is greater rage, all three group buffs, recasting weapon shield as soon as it pops, imbued fulginate armor, and a pair of imbued fulginate spatha, along with a str imbued ring and a wis imbued ring.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>once in a while, if the mender and disciple in the lizardmen groups get their heals timed right, I'm close to dying when the last one falls, and I'm ALWAYS OOP and having to purely melee the underhand (one I leave for last, when doing lizardmen), from recasting my weapon shield, casting BA and WW as soon as possible, and proccing HOs every time they become available...but usually, I have at least 25% HP when I've finished a group of lizardmen, and 30-35% when I finish satars.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So far, I can handle doubleups if they're two levels or more below me, as long as I cast the hell out of my CA's, and use the offending stance, as well, and single, no arrow heroics at my level, if they're melee, not caster, types.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right after LU13, when I was 35, I found these basic balances to be about the same in the fields outside RoV, and rooms inside, in regards to skellies and gobbies...melee solos, I could take doubleups two levels under me with DW, three levels under me with 2H, tripleups were 4 and 5 levels below me, respectively (last level "blue" to me, and first level "green" to me, at that point).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But maybe our playstyles differ....I dunno.</DIV>

[Sural_Argonus]

<P>I think it's a matter of preference and point of view (both pre '13 and Post '13).</P> <P>2h does a lot of damage in one hit, and has a long delay, and DW uses lighter weapons so they swing faster.</P> <P>I prefer the DW...only for the speed...My little dwarf uses axes or hammers.  (just seems right that a dwarf zerker should use axes and hammers)</P> <P>However depending on situation...I do carry 3 sets of weapons.  1 set of DW axes for general use, a 2h battle axe, and a 1h axe and shield.  Just really depends on what mood I am in.  The next thing on my shopping list is throwing hammers.  At least..I hope I can use throwing hammers.  lol  Haven't looked.</P> <P><BR> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Sabin the Gre]

<DIV>This is a carry over from another thread, but end game, a big slow weapon is better far and away *except auto-attacking* (that's for you Gurg).  While DW's hit faster, you'll recieve the same amount % of hits and misses amongst weapons of the same tier, and the same amount of average physical non-proc'ing damage.  Where 2-hand really shines is the more CA's you use.  Generally speaking while solo'ing, raiding and grouping, as your level increases so will the # of CAs that you use.  This is especially true at level 50 when you get your offensive stance and rampage.  Although a 2Hand becomes better in your early 40s at 50 is when you really can't afford to continue to use DWs. </DIV>

[GurgTheBash]

<P>What he said.</P> <P> </P> <P>But learn to calculate your actual DPS, and to legitimately compare weapons before diciding on one, don't just grab the one that has the highest numbers, at the cost of a delay that turns your DPS into "swatting bears with a toilet paper roll", or lose out on a danned good mob-whacker because it's "too damned slow to be good DPS"</P> <P> </P> <P>And remember that CA's cast atthe same speed, and have the same "delay" between them whether you're holding a 15 second delay "mighty world tree of godly wrath" or "the ebuillient lady slipper greatsword" with a 2.0 delay rating....</P>

[xandez]

Yes, but if you have a 1.2s delay wep (and lets say youre even hasted a bit... down to 1.0s delay maybe) Using eg. 2s casting time skills makes you compeletly *lose* 2 hits... so... IF you're button mashing, the slower wep always is better that faster, but if youre not... it doesnt matter that much <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> And this has been discussed so many times (or debated actually <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) already that im just gonna say... Choose whichever wep you like, no matter what it is or does it do MARGINALLY more or less dmg that the other wep. Pick the one YOU love... ++Xan <div></div>

[GurgTheBash]

<P>LOL xandex.</P> <P> </P> <P>In the "half the man" thread, someone worked out that the difference between a 3.8 second 2H and a pair of 1.2 second duals requires 23 weapon-using CAs per minute to "balance" the number of swings.</P> <P>But, basically, what we've worked out in that thread is that until about level 45-ish, when the RGF weapons become available, DW delivers a slightly higher DPS than the comperable 2H in the same time period, but the CA advantage tends to rectify this, and even push the advantage over to the 2H side of the scale, while GS imbueds push it back towards the DW side.</P> <P> </P> <DIV>However, the difference, OUTSIDE weapon-based procs, is so minute that it's really a matter of personal choice...a difference of 6 damage on average per hit on the part of the 2H is enough to "eat the DW proc-per-second advantage", and that much extra damage can be aquired just by using the weapon-based CAs a bit "enthusiastically".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, remember that out of 6 CAs that involve a weapon swing that are available to a level 44, only 2 have a 2 second cast time (whirlwind and berserker assault), all the others have a half-second casting time, which works out as a "speed advantage" for BOTH types...just more of one for 2H users.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN>  <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN>  <P><SPAN class=time_text>In the end though, you, Sabin, and myself are saying the same thing..."until 45 or 50, do whatever feels best to you, the actual difference is so small, it won't really matter in the end...once you hit 45-50 and beyond, switch to 2H, and get hold of one of the "BAWs" (bad arsed weapons) at all costs."</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by GurgTheBashur on <span class=date_text>09-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:39 AM</span>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>GurgTheBashur wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>LOL xandex.</p> <p> </p> <p>In the "half the man" thread, someone worked out that the difference between a 3.8 second 2H and a pair of 1.2 second duals requires 23 weapon-using CAs per minute to "balance" the number of swings.</p> <p>But, basically, what we've worked out in that thread is that until about level 45-ish, when the RGF weapons become available, DW delivers a slightly higher DPS than the comperable 2H in the same time period, but the CA advantage tends to rectify this, and even push the advantage over to the 2H side of the scale, while GS imbueds push it back towards the DW side.</p> <p> </p><hr></blockquote> Not really.  What YOU worked was that you were right and DW is better. The only time in which DW is be better is if all you did was stand there, without haste, and only with auto-attack and no other procs other than imbued Gleaming Strike procs. As soon as you add haste, any CAs or additional procs chances and 2H is substantially better. In other words, if you aren't a bot, 2H is likely to be better for you.</span><div></div>

[GurgTheBash]

<DIV>Really, Solokov?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Funny, mate, but when it's stated, by one of the 2H adherents that it takes 23 CAs in a minute (which can't be done until 50, if then) to equalize unhated time between 1.2 DW and 3.8 2H for "procs in X time off weapon imbuements" purposes, I take it as what it says "the DW weapon-based procs happen so much more often that this is what it takes to compensate".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW...haste makes a bigger impact on 2H in terms of how much time it cuts off the swing...but not in how many more swings it enables in X period..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>13.8% increase in attack speed:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This can be restated as "under this haste, your attack speed is 86.2% of what it was"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.2 * .862 = 1.0344</DIV> <DIV>2.5 * .862 = 2.155</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So now, under that 13.8% haste, yes the 2H gained .345 seconds per swing, while each DW only gained .166</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>BUT</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Unhasted, the DW pair swing a total of 100 times per minute (50 each), the 2H only swings 24 times per minute, total</DIV> <DIV>Hated 13.8%, the DW pair swing a total of 116 times per minute, the 2H only swings 28 times (27.84)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For a gain of 16 swings vs a gain of 4 swings, and a net DPS gain of effectively nothing in comparison (the melee damage is essentially equal over the same period of time with 2H or comperable DW...the ONLY advantage DW enjoys is when both are imbued, which doubles your chance of proccing the weapon imbuement in a given time, specifically because there are two "generators" of the proc present)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haste has no impact on CA speeds, and the comparitave ratios of swing speeds remain the same, so the overall "procs produced by the weapons in a given time" stay the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So again, until you have a 2H that has enough superior melee damage to make up for that extra weapn-imbuement proc every minute, or enough CAs available to make use of the higher CA-spawned weapon imbuement proc, the advantage is in the hands of the imbued DW...but it's a SLIM advantage. And the point that the 2H weapons described become commonly available is when you start raiding, and the CA chains become available at 50, to the best estimation I can work out, supported by the figures of one of you 2H adherents.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stance-based aggressive procs, as I said in the other thread, happen at a MUCH greater rate for 2H and DW, on a "per hit" basis...but it works out to "once in the time period it takes the 2H to spawn it in AS combat" and "the 2H spawns it more often off  CAs"...which gives the 2H the advantage there...but what level do those buff-based procs become available, and how many CAs does it take for the advantage this gives 2H to balance the weapon-imbued proc advantage in "per minute" terms enjoyed by DW?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dunno, for that last bit...haven't put myself to working it out yet. I suspect, as I said in the other thread, that the stance-based aggressive procs 2H advantage overtakes the DW weapon-based proc advantage in "procs per minute" around level 40, when I got the last signifigantly increased percentage of proc buff...if so, I'm a bit behind the curve, but I don't yet know if that's the case (and if I find out it is, I suspect there's gonna be alot of crowing as I admit it, in that other thread <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).</DIV>

[GurgTheBash]

<DIV>Update...at 44, I discovered that spamming the CAs makes such a signifgant damage difference between 2H and DW that the procs are basically a non-issue...the best 2H damage available on broker at tier 5 WITHOUT weapon-based imbueds outperforms the best imbued DW pair I've seen on the broker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So if you use CAs heavily, instead of spending most of your time on AS, and waiting for all your CAs to recycle so you could string them in a given order, then 2H is best DPS as low as 41 (the level the 2Hs that outperform inbued DW without being imbued themselves first become available, in this tier)...but you'll spend more time recharging power between fights...and for me, this is a big issue, because I HATE downtime when I want to be fighting, and all my "enhancements" went to per-tick regen of HP, not power.</DIV>

[xandez]

psst Gurg... /respec, *cough* haha <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> Ok seriously... Have you ever noticed some changes in the skill dmg with different weapon types? I mean, is there any difference in CA dmg whether you use a 2h wep or 2x dw weps? In some skills woudnt make any sense (like teh kick line) But in some, it could... (bigger wep = more pummel powah! or sumthing <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) Someone once claimed that there WAS a difference, but i really havent noticed or actually, i havent tested it out... heh <span>:smileyindifferent:</span> ++Xan <div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> xandez wrote:<BR>psst Gurg... /respec, *cough*<BR><BR>haha <SPAN>:smileyvery-happy:</SPAN><BR><BR>Ok seriously... <BR>Have you ever noticed some changes in the skill dmg with different weapon types?<BR>I mean, is there any difference in CA dmg whether you use a 2h wep or 2x dw weps?<BR><BR>In some skills woudnt make any sense (like teh kick line)<BR>But in some, it could... (bigger wep = more pummel powah! or sumthing <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)<BR><BR>Someone once claimed that there WAS a difference, but i really havent noticed or actually, i havent tested it out... heh <SPAN>:smileyindifferent:</SPAN><BR><BR>++Xan<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No difference at all. Its all to do with how much STR you have that determines your CA dmg output.

[Sokolov]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>GurgTheBashur wrote:<div>Update...at 44, I discovered that spamming the CAs makes such a signifgant damage difference between 2H and DW that the procs are basically a non-issue...the best 2H damage available on broker at tier 5 WITHOUT weapon-based imbueds outperforms the best imbued DW pair I've seen on the broker.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>So if you use CAs heavily, instead of spending most of your time on AS, and waiting for all your CAs to recycle so you could string them in a given order, then 2H is best DPS as low as 41 (the level the 2Hs that outperform inbued DW without being imbued themselves first become available, in this tier)...but you'll spend more time recharging power between fights...and for me, this is a big issue, because I HATE downtime when I want to be fighting, and all my "enhancements" went to per-tick regen of HP, not power.</div><hr></blockquote> I would argue that it is more efficient to end fights quicker rather than slowing.  This is due to out of combat regen being significantly faster than in combat regen.  Thus, an extra tick of combat costs you a lot more than power versus spending that tick out of combat.  <i>In theory</i>, burning more power in combat will increase downtime between fights, but the extra damage should more than makeup for the extra downtime in terms of overall kills/xp over time.  Personally, I just can't abide simply standing there when I still have some power and typically use at least 75% of my power every encounter.  (Funny how different people think, I consider not using CAs not fighting while you consider "downtime" not fighting.) The other issue is adds, the longer you spend on a given encounter, the higher the chances of your getting a wandering or re-pop add or having SOMETHING bad happen. (</span><span>Before the respec, after I got Anarchy, I could take a solo mob down significantly with two bow shots. I'd Anarchy, Bloodrage, and then pull, those two buffs, along with the other procs I have, often ended up proccing for total damage of around 600, with a bow shot regularly landing for 300-400, this meant that each shot has potential to hit 1k damage.  This led me to favoring longer pulls where I have room to run backwards a bit and get a second bow shot off. This no longer works nearly as well, of course, but it was fun while it lasted.) </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>09-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:44 AM</span>

[Sabin the Gre]

<P>This is a carry over from another post, but I think it shows the differences in dual wield vs two hand very well.  So here it is:</P> <P>(I'm quoting myself btw :robottongue<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <DIV>OK, lets do it like this.  I'll set up the proc chance of a 1.2 dual wield and 3.8 2 hand on auto attack over a 60 second interval, which everyone should be able to agree upon.   Then, I'll calculate a number of CA's that need to be used over a given period of time for a 2 hand to do more total (procs + auto-attack) damage than a dual wield.  In order for me to do this I'm going to make the following assumptions.  </DIV> <OL> <LI>No attacks are missed or parried (this simply doesn't matter, as over an infinite attack interval both weapons and their procs will miss the exact same amount of times).   <LI>When you use dual wield weapons they only give a single chance to proc when you use a CA.  I.e.  You can't cast 2x gleaming strike off 1x CA if you are dual wielding (you can however have an attack do 0 damage and still proc which could explain some instances of this happening.  An example is in raiding when a mob is immune to crush but you can still proc screaming mace...moving on). <LI>We're only taking into consideration the proc damage of the weapon, not the effect that the speed of your weapon has on other procs such as your offensive stance, etc.</LI></OL> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We'll use a 60 second interval since a minute is a nice round time frame.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Auto-Attack with 2 Hand:</DIV> <DIV>15.79 attacks</DIV> <DIV>Chance to proc = 15.20 (12% base and a 3.8 delay weapon)</DIV> <DIV>Expected # of Procs from auto-attack = 2.4</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Auto-Attack with 2x Dual Wield</DIV> <DIV>50 attacks *per weapon (100 attacks total) </DIV> <DIV>Chance to proc = 4.8 (12% base and a 1.2 delay weapon)</DIV> <DIV>Expected # of Procs from auto-attack = 2.4 per weapon.  So 4.8 procs total.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So from auto-attack only we see that the damage delt by 2x dual wield weapons is superior by about 2.4 procs over a 1 minute period. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, it has been my general experience that no player spends his or her time only auto-attacking.   So at what point does a 2 hand weapon become better than a dual wield when using CA's.  For that we can set up a simple 1 variable equation where x = the number of CA's used over a 1 minute interval.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(15.79 + x) * 15.2% = (100 + x) * 4.8%   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So in english this equation represents the break even number of CA's (x) which you must use for the two weapon setups (3.8delay 2hand vs 2x 1.2delay Duals) to have equal effectiveness. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you solve for x (this is very easy so I didn't show it) you get x = 23.   </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff00cc>In otherwords, you have to use greater than 23 combat arts in a 1 minute time frame for the 3.8 delay 2 hand weapon to be better than the 1.2 delay duals.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, if you are someone who uses CA's at a decent rate a slow 2 hand will be better for you.  If you rarely use CA's as Gurg does, the duals will be better for you. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><U>THIS IS ONLY FOR BASE WEAPON DAMAGE (i.e.  THE DAMAGE THE WEAPON DOES + PROC DAMAGE)</U></EM></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What you find however when taking into consideration other procs such as the one found on Cryptic Metallic Curiass (CMC) or the one we gain from our offensive stance the number of CA's needed for a big slow 2 Hander to be better than Dual Wields becomes drastically smaller, because now the actual percent your CMC procs or your offensive stance fires is determined by the speed of your weapon and is thus much higher or lower than listed.  Thus is the beauty of the slow delay weapons.  They not only effect the amount the proc listed on the weapon fires, but the rate at which other "to hit" procs fire as well.  So lets look at how this effects the situation we set up above.  It was found that when using 23 combat arts in a 1 minute period, as well as counting auto attacks both the dual wields and the 3.8 were equal with respect to damage.  So using those numbers lets add in an additional 10% chance to proc (as found on the CMC).</DIV>

[GurgTheBash]

<DIV>Actually, Sabin, I've been schooling myself to use them more often, rather than sticking to my nice, comfortable "buff, pull, hit fighting chance, trigger three heaviest CA's, taunt to trigger HO, wait for slowest CA to recycle, and do again from Fighting Chance" pattern, as the DPS difference struck me as a real advantage (and has enabled me to competently take singleup heroics 2 levels above me in sinking sands, with the axe I chose to use for it, something I can't do with DW OR 2H imbueds available at my level)....you 2H adherents have won another convert...but I still don't like the "non-combat" time I spend regenning as a result.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Solokov, for me, time not in a fight is "down time", where I'm paranoiaclly watching for aggro that might notice me before I'm ready (or worse, when I don't have enough power or HP to handle it, and have to run, willy-nilly, trying to lose aggro, and probably picking up half the zone in the process, and running 10 times as far as it took to lose the one I picked up originally)...it's boring, and slightly stressful...my DW pattern made it so I could handle adds, and, if I got too many consecutively, THEN had to find a safe place to rest and regen, but otherwise, I moved from one encounter to another with minimal time between, and had to sit and be a "paranoid", scanning around for aggro, as little time as possible...for me, gaming is about being in an encounter...which is why I'm usually more of an FPS buff than an MMO buff...I like action, not waiting for the next bit of action. But I understand your points, too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically, I'm a natural born grinder...I can be entertained for hours on end by being involved in non-stop combat against the same blasted mobs in the same scenery all day, every day, until they stop accomplishing ANYTHING for me, and my only drive to accomplish anything is to get to the next level so I can use the next bigger weapon, or the next nasty skill, not because I want the reward from this quest or that quest, but because I see progressing to that point so I can spend my time repetatively matching myself against the next toughest mob for the fun of "duking it out" with him...my only interest in raiding is so I can pit myself against the biggest, nastiest opponents I can, and see if I can live through it, and keep doing it until I CAN do so, easily...that's also why I love PvP, when it's in circumstances where there's some question as to who will win...I rarely duel anyone who will "surely" kill me, or who I have pretty much a 100% chance of killing, and I'm not embarrassed to tell a level 50+ (as I did today) "What's the point? You know it won't even be close.". Maybe that's the difference. I dunno.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At any rate, "who can kill the most mobs in the least time?" is not a question that woudl occur to me unless someone put a challenge in front of me where that was the basis of the contest. "Who spends the most time sitting on their [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] doing nothing" is, because idleness drives me NUTS.</DIV><p>Message Edited by GurgTheBashur on <span class=date_text>09-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:41 AM</span>

[Buggrit]

<DIV>why not use both? im very close to 32 when i do ding 32  i probally will use pgt+ feysteel for a while because i think the dmg absorb proc will help with tanking i'll probally switch between the 2 for DPS</DIV>

[GurgTheBash]

<DIV>No reason at all not to use both, and the pgt proc DID work quite well for me for a long while.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But you have to change playstyles in each situation, to get the "most" out of it, and most people are creatures of habit....in my case, I'm deliberately changing a few habits in order to change which outcome I get, because I feel the overall outcome from doing so is in my favor. Not really any different than some situations in RL....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Say, for instance, you've always been one who paid attantion to gas mileage, and therefore drove the most efficient route to work at a moderately fuel efficient speed, but you discovered that, by driving a different route, at the same speed, you could get there sooner, at a cost of a bit more gas, but would earn a bit more money by being at work longer, due to the time saved (arrive sooner, leave later, leave home at the same time, get home at the same time), and the money more than paid for the extra gas....it's STILL "better" than being one of the guys who drives the least efficient route at the highest speed they can, so they can sleep in later, and who still leaves right when their schedueld shift is up, who spends half his "check" on gas, and has less to spend on the stuff you think is important, but it's ALSO better off, overall, than you were, to begin with, because you end up with a *bit* more money in your pocket.</DIV>

[Buggrit]

<DIV>can we just drop it and leave it at </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>use whatever you feel is best and are most comfortable with :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Sokolov]

As long as some ogre doesn't come around saying he dual-wield "gnome assassins" I am happy. <div></div>

[Sural_Argonus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR>As long as some ogre doesn't come around saying he dual-wield "gnome assassins" I am happy.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That's actually a pretty funny mental image...even tho I am sure Gnomes wouldn't think so.  lol</P> <P> </P> <P>I still think the DW/2H thing is really a matter of preference.  I prefer DW over 2h...Just for the simple fact that I think it's cooler then a 2h weapon...except on my dwarf...I just can't imagine a dwarf zerker wielding anything other then a huge axe or hammer.</P>

[FlameingInfer]

<DIV>Just get a few of everything!  a good zerker has many weapons at his disposal!  Duel wield, 2h, 1h & shield, Crush, Pierce slash!  get someting in every one. LoL</DIV>

[Sabin the Gre]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> GurgTheBashur wrote:<BR> <DIV>Actually, Sabin, I've been schooling myself to use them more often, rather than sticking to my nice, comfortable "buff, pull, hit fighting chance, trigger three heaviest CA's, taunt to trigger HO, wait for slowest CA to recycle, and do again from Fighting Chance" pattern, as the DPS difference struck me as a real advantage (and has enabled me to competently take singleup heroics 2 levels above me in sinking sands, with the axe I chose to use for it, something I can't do with DW OR 2H imbueds available at my level)....<FONT color=#66ff00>you 2H adherents have won another convert...but I still don't like the "non-combat" time I spend regenning as a result.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Message Edited by GurgTheBashur on <SPAN class=date_text>09-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:41 AM</SPAN><BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Muahahaha.  We're like the bird flu.  We latch on and don't let go till you're just like us <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[GurgTheBash]

Yeah, yeah...:smileytongue:

[Mordock of the Highwynd]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <DIV>Gurg wrote</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Solokov, for me, time not in a fight is "down time", where I'm paranoiaclly watching for aggro that might notice me before I'm ready (or worse, when I don't have enough power or HP to handle it, and have to run, willy-nilly, trying to lose aggro, and probably picking up half the zone in the process, and running 10 times as far as it took to lose the one I picked up originally)...it's boring, and slightly stressful...my DW pattern made it so I could handle adds, and, if I got too many consecutively, THEN had to find a safe place to rest and regen, but otherwise, I moved from one encounter to another with minimal time between, and had to sit and be a "paranoid", scanning around for aggro, as little time as possible...for me, gaming is about being in an encounter...which is why I'm usually more of an FPS buff than an MMO buff...I like action, not waiting for the next bit of action. But I understand your points, too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yeah, I'm of that school, too, but not <U>just</U> because I get bored and don't like the pauses (though this is true).  I am in of that school because as a tank my jobs are to stay alive, hold agro, and keep em coming.  If I can bump my DPS by 50% by pulling half the mobs, then I am screwing the grind for most of the groups that I am in.  Yes, the mobs die a little faster, but given that I am a tank and have less potential to do damage than others in the group--that don't die <U>that</U> much quicker.  I became a tank in the first place, in the first MMOG I played because I was tired of slow tanks who worked hard to boost their pitiful DPS by a bit and ended up resting all the time.</P> <P>I realize that (1) that we have great multiple-mob attacks and I never miss a chance to invoke those and (2) higher damage means more hate generation.  Though I'll do what I have to in order to hold agro, if this means that I'm holding up the group by resting all the time, then something needs to change.</P> <P>So I do as many CAs as I can "afford" while I "keep 'em coming."</P> <P>When soloing, the general rule involves resting for power vs. resting for health.  If I am resting mostly for power, then maybe I should trade of some health for power by doing more CAs.  If I am resting mostly for health, then I should do the opposite.  However, changing the stance and changing the equipment modify this in addition to the way CAs modify it.<BR></P>

[Sokolov]

<div></div>I would certainly agree with you IF regen was the same in and out of combat. However, since power regen is so much greater during downtime than in combat, any extra time spent in combat is effectively slowing your group down.  It may not feel like it since you are "fighting" and I've never actually calculated it, but it just seems to me faster IS better because over time, I have more power at my disposal.  My idea is that you end every fight as quickly as possible with as little health and power as possible (obviously not more than you have to!) to take advantage of out of combat regeneration effects for both health AND power.  One of my biggest annoyances is when the fight is over, no mobs are around, and the healer insists on healing everyone to full when we need to wait for power anyway. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>10-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:27 AM</span>

[GurgTheBash]

<P>Yeah, but at the same time, as a tank, your job is to take and hold aggro...if you're resting so YOU can regen power so you can hold that aggro, rather than resting so your DPS can regen power and kill them faster, you're pretty well screwed if you pick up the unexpected add because somebody fluffs something when you haven't regenned enough power to take the aggro off them and hold it while they kill it.</P> <P> </P> <P>As a result, my opinion is that it's better holding aggro in a group while spending minimum power per mob to do so, so you have more power when the inevitable rests for casters and healers to regen THEIR power is more desireable...because you're less likely to need to evac or wipe (assuming that is, that evac is up and available, and the classes in the group that have it have the power and time to cast it before someone dies) from the unexpected "pick up" when a rest is needed.</P> <P> </P> <P>And what THAT means, in turn, is maximizing your purely melee DPS when you're not spending power, and ONLY spending power to restablish and hold aggro, or to launch a "big ticket" chain. After all, as a tank, you're NOT one of the better damagers in the group, under ANY circumstances...all they want you there to do is take the hits for them, and minimize the healer's power-spending while doing so...</P> <P> </P> <P>In an ideal group, IMO, you should have enough "healer power" on tap when your group is resting so the DPS can regen THEIR power that it would require for your group to purely melee an unexpected pickup of aggro  to death while the tank casts his CAs like mad, and enough tank power for him to aquire aggro, hold aggro, and function as the major DPS for a minute or so...because that's exactly what you have to do to survive if you get unexpected aggro when your DPS is out of juice, if you don't have evac available...and evacing means you have to fight your way all the way back to wherever you were XPing at the time, to begin with.</P> <p>Message Edited by GurgTheBashur on <span class=date_text>10-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:04 AM</span>

[Sokolov]

The counter to that is that unexpected adds can occur at any time.  Thus, it is unfair to say that just because I use more power in a given fight that when an add occurs I will have less power.  Recall that since fights are shorter, I am able to regen more power, thus, on average, I may or may not have less power than you.  Additionally, if I am doing more damage with my power, it is more likely that the healer will have more power as well if an add does occur.  This is especially important when an add occurs while the first battle is still in progress.  Most healers can handle one mob relatively easily.  Where their efficiency goes down is having to spam all their heal lines when the damage incoming is too great.  Imagine that you are fighting a mob.  An add will occur in 45 seconds. In conserve power mode, you kill it in 60 seconds.  Therefore, you have 15 seconds in which 2 mobs are beating on you.  Adds usually cause "panic" in a group and often results in inefficient power use (in the case of healers, they really have no choice).  Also note that players now have to choose to burn the first mob down faster OR debuff the second mob.  Debuffs are very powerful in this game and every second you lose on a debuff nturally isn't good. In full burn mode, you kill it in 30 seconds.  Now you regen for 2 ticks before you even get the add.  Everyone has more power. In the end, I'd rather fight one mob with less power than 2 mobs with more power. The incidence of an add increases as the fight lasts longer.  Killing faster means you can reposition your group earlier/easier, possibly avoiding the add altogether. <div></div>

[GurgTheBash]

<DIV>Yup...but in "full burn" mode, you don't have the juice to keep aggro in the last 15 seconds of fighting the add.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You also don't have the DPS to HOLD that aggro against any damage your casters incur because in-combat regen suddenly made their big "heavy hitter" available again. Or against the hate generated by your healer when they regen enough or recycle enough to cast buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So group wipes or evacs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By rationing power, though, you have enough power to not only aquire and hold aggro, even when everyone else has NO power (and therefore is meleeing their butt off and PRAYING to regen enough whiel in combat to add a bit of DPS to the mix themselves), but enough to function as the primary DPS while waiting for your "real DPS" to regen enough to add some damage to the fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Which means that as long as the tank and the healer have been rationing their power, the group won't have to evac, nor will they wipe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, in a disaster situation, they get ONE unexpected add where the Tank has to function as DPS, and the healer spends their "reserve power" keeping him alive while he does so, and the others add what DPS they can as they regen in combat, then get ANOTHER add while, or right after, doing this, and they wipe or have to evac. This happens, yes...by YOUR method, however, the tank can't aquire aggro if he's not the one to pick it up with the original add, so whoever picked him up dies...OR, if he CAN aquire the aggro, he runs out of juice before the mob is half dead, the ehaler runs out around the same time, and whioever pulls aggro off him with the big cast they manage due to in-combat regen suddenly has aggro he can't handle...so you wipe or evac without killing your FIRST add.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At least, that's been my experience...and I've had plenty of groups where I couldn't function as tank do exactly that (fighting mobs too high for me to tank effectively, where, in all honesty, I shouldn't have been in the group to begin with, and was included basically as an "XP leech")</DIV>

[Sokolov]

I do certainly agree that it's bad to be caught with your pants down, so to speak.  I just think the incidence of that is lowered rather than increased if you are burning more power due to all the benefits associated with killing faster. <div></div>

[GurgTheBash]

<DIV>You might be right, all I'm saying is that my method takes into account the fact that you WILL be "caught with your pants down" periodically, and allows you to deal with it successfully, without evacing, most of the time, while yours seems to say "lose control, even a little bit, or have something unexpected happen at the wrong time, and you'd best hope evac is up".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dunno which one results in more kills-per-minute or XP per hour, but I know which one I've found to be more survivable...and I HATE spending time fighting my way back to where I'd already worked my way to, if I don't absolutely HAVE to.</DIV>

[kono]

<P>You're clearly misnamed.  I dub you GurgTheCautiousOverthinkur.</P> <P>najena.konk</P>

[Sokolov]

<span><blockquote><hr>GurgTheBashur wrote:<div>You might be right, all I'm saying is that my method takes into account the fact that you WILL be "caught with your pants down" periodically, and allows you to deal with it successfully, without evacing, most of the time, while yours seems to say "lose control, even a little bit, or have something unexpected happen at the wrong time, and you'd best hope evac is up".</div> <div> </div> <div>I dunno which one results in more kills-per-minute or XP per hour, but I know which one I've found to be more survivable...and I HATE spending time fighting my way back to where I'd already worked my way to, if I don't absolutely HAVE to.</div><hr></blockquote>Oh, I am not saying that at all.  I sincerely believe that my method means there is less of a chance I will be caught that way.  Whereas the longer you draw out your fights, the more likely you will be low on power when an add arrives.  And even in the event of an inevitable add, I think my method allows you a greater chance of dealing with it successfully by limiting overlap time of adds.</span><div></div>

[GurgTheBash]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR><BR>Whereas the longer you draw out your fights, the more likely you will be low on power when an add arrives. </SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Howzat?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't get you in the least, here...if you're rationing your power (I.E. not spending it) how is it AT ALL likely you'll be low on power? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Generally, when I tank in groups, I don't drop below 75% power on any one encounter, because I ONLY fire off power-draining skills to hold onto aggro, which means that if I fire off a chain that drains 12% power once every 45 seconds, I regen 4% in the wait between. The extra taunt I use in that time uses 2%, and most fights don't last a minute and a half per mob (or group of mobs). I can't recall EVER having been under 50% power in a group where I hadn't been casting like crazy because of an add, first trying to get aggro off whoever had inadvertantly pulled, and secondly, acting as the main DPS because EVERYONE had been low. By the time I'm at 50% power, the casters are needing to rest to regen their power pool, as they are down below 10% by that point, usually. My healers generally only need to rest if we've "understaffed" on healers, are taking on something where we can only handle one encounter before the DPS need to rest for regen, or we've just dealt with that unexpected add, and spent half the fight or more with our DPS praying madly to regen enough to cast just once more before anyone dies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your method MAY decrease overlap time when you <EM>do</EM> get the unexpected add while actually IN combat (but I dunno about that, either, because that's when we go nuts with the AE stuff, if I'm actually leading the group...and I'm generally a pretty good puller, anyhow, and pull to areas where we're not restricted from using them, when possible, since they are the "big number" hitters, anyhow, for the most part), but it still doesn't address the inadvertant add when resting to regen...you're CLEARLY more likely to get pounded at this point, since, according to you, the ONLY person in the group who can be expected to have any power to spare is the healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I couldn't say which works better, since I don't use your style, and you may very well be right about how well it works, I couldn't say, having not experienced it. All I CAN say is I've been in FAR too many groups where the MT spams his CAs like crazy, and doesn't have the power to capture aggro from an unexpected add with bad timing, nor the power to function as decent DPS when his intended DPS have no power to do so, either, and the group has wiped repeatedly as a result (in one case I vividly remember from about level 16-ish, we picked up some 35% debt in SH with a level 20 'Zerker leading the group. I had a couple of similarly bad experiences in RoV in my mid-20's to early 30's).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>konofo, the name comes from a tendancy I have when with a healer I trust to overestimate how fast I can kill something if I DO just go "button crazy" with the skills...I've always had a tendancy, when I play an MMO, to play the "mid tank" class...the one who can function as a tank, but has best DPS of a tanking class. And when I RP a bit, halfassedly, I have a tendancy to show people my "bonky stick" and to feign disinterest at anything but "finding something new to bash".</DIV>

[Sokolov]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>GurgTheBashur wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Sokolov wrote:<span>Whereas the longer you draw out your fights, the more likely you will be low on power when an add arrives. </span> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Howzat?</div> <div> </div> <div>I don't get you in the least, here...if you're rationing your power (I.E. not spending it) how is it AT ALL likely you'll be low on power? </div> <div> </div> <div>Generally, when I tank in groups, I don't drop below 75% power on any one encounter, because I ONLY fire off power-draining skills to hold onto aggro, which means that if I fire off a chain that drains 12% power once every 45 seconds, I regen 4% in the wait between. The extra taunt I use in that time uses 2%, and most fights don't last a minute and a half per mob (or group of mobs). I can't recall EVER having been under 50% power in a group where I hadn't been casting like crazy because of an add, first trying to get aggro off whoever had inadvertantly pulled, and secondly, acting as the main DPS because EVERYONE had been low. By the time I'm at 50% power, the casters are needing to rest to regen their power pool, as they are down below 10% by that point, usually. My healers generally only need to rest if we've "understaffed" on healers, are taking on something where we can only handle one encounter before the DPS need to rest for regen, or we've just dealt with that unexpected add, and spent half the fight or more with our DPS praying madly to regen enough to cast just once more before anyone dies.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>Your method MAY decrease overlap time when you <em>do</em> get the unexpected add while actually IN combat (but I dunno about that, either, because that's when we go nuts with the AE stuff, if I'm actually leading the group...and I'm generally a pretty good puller, anyhow, and pull to areas where we're not restricted from using them, when possible, since they are the "big number" hitters, anyhow, for the most part), but it still doesn't address the inadvertant add when resting to regen...you're CLEARLY more likely to get pounded at this point, since, according to you, the ONLY person in the group who can be expected to have any power to spare is the healer.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>I couldn't say which works better, since I don't use your style, and you may very well be right about how well it works, I couldn't say, having not experienced it. All I CAN say is I've been in FAR too many groups where the MT spams his CAs like crazy, and doesn't have the power to capture aggro from an unexpected add with bad timing, nor the power to function as decent DPS when his intended DPS have no power to do so, either, and the group has wiped repeatedly as a result (in one case I vividly remember from about level 16-ish, we picked up some 35% debt in SH with a level 20 'Zerker leading the group. I had a couple of similarly bad experiences in RoV in my mid-20's to early 30's).</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>konofo, the name comes from a tendancy I have when with a healer I trust to overestimate how fast I can kill something if I DO just go "button crazy" with the skills...I've always had a tendancy, when I play an MMO, to play the "mid tank" class...the one who can function as a tank, but has best DPS of a tanking class. And when I RP a bit, halfassedly, I have a tendancy to show people my "bonky stick" and to feign disinterest at anything but "finding something new to bash".</div><hr></blockquote></span> If we assume that adds can occur at any time, then the liklihood of an add occuring while engaged increases the longer one is in combat. Again, any time spent outside of combat is by definition more efficient than time spent in combat.  Thus, not only is the liklihood decreased for fighting 2 mobs at a time by killing faster, over the same time period, I have regened more power.  If we presume that the add would have occured at EXACTLY the same time regardless, then the extra regen time I got will mean I, and my group as a whole, may very well have more power at my disposal.  Additionally, on an average per mob power used basis, my group also wins due to the extra regen time, as every fight, on average, we will use more power, but compensate for that with extra regen time.  This applies even to the healer of my group, who will have significantly more power than your healer due to the fact that we are killing faster.  All this does not necessarily mean that we aer all out of power after one fight.  Afterall, the mob only has so much health.   One thing I hadn't mentioned is the need for the group, including the tank, to work together.  I would agree with you in thta if I am out of power and the wizard is at 80% then we have issues.  But this should not be happening anyway.  Ideally, in a balanced game and a balanced group, the wizard should be able to expend power at the same rate as the tank without pulling aggro provided teh tank is choosing his abilities wisely.  If the tank increases his CA use, he increases the damage threshold and therefore the DPS in the group should take note and increase damage accordingly.  On the other hand, the tank should not be outpacing his group in terms of power use and damage threshold.  If you know your group is at maximum damage potential then increasing your own aggro doesn't really help.  I have an advocate for riding the hate line to maximize all potential.  This is actually a carry-over form my days of playing a Ranger on FFXI, who is the sole DPS king in most situations.  One of the Ranger's secondary abilities, other than DPS, is the ability to pull aggro.  You may not think that is much of a utility, but the Thieves in that game rely on this power in order to unleash their most powerful attacks.  Additionally, the ability to grab aggro at will is extremely potent on that game for other various reasons.  In any case, the point here is that the caveat to what I have been saying is that the tank's power use should be moderated according  to his group's damage potential, while at the same time the group's players, if they are maximizing their potential, should take note of how far THIS particular tank is pushing the hate line for them. With all that said, I still think faster is better <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Also note that many of our CAs have stuns/interrupts or knockback type of effects, lowering the incoming damage thus allowing the priest to conserve power, use more debuffs (particularly when the fight begins) or even turn it to direct offensive uses.  This is also why I advocate opening EVERY fight with a 1hander and a shield, and pushing stun/stifle effects, throwing debuffs and defensive skills and switching midbattle to 2hander. [Edit: this not only appplies to me, but for other players as well, particularly the healer, who typically have very nice debuffs that help significantly.  Another thing I often do with healers I am familiar with is that they know when I am ready to pull, or know how to indicate to me they are ready - that is, if they know we are ready, they will throw up their special heal.  I pull as it lands.  That way, we take advantage of an extra tick of regen but have a "free" heal going already.  This also means that as the mob is incoming (I taunt it as I am running back to the group typically), the healers can debuff right away instead of worrying about healing me.  Most of the healers I play with learn that this makes them more efficient, while also even allowing them to nuke (which some of them love to do so much I wonder why they aen't a mage)] <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sokolov on <span class=date_text>10-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:28 PM</span>

[RaunII]

<DIV>yeah, i know, bringing a thread back from the dead. now, there has been massive support for two handed weapons and most people are in agreement that duals arent worth it. i am only 31, so there is a high probability this will change later, but at the moment, dual weilds do more dps when i am not the main tank. when soloing or main tank two hander does more dps. this is just what i have noticed with my parcer exploits <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Kage8]

Hello im a lvl 56 Zerker and im finding it hard to hit mobs with my T5 fabled RGF. Now while this is my fav weapon in the game and has been for a long time the simple fact is you need T6 to hit things better Post 50...so....iI have always used 2hers, but ihave been doing some thinking latly. First of all about the 3-second timer on procs, do you have a link or something to where u read that, cause it sounds wrong. ***Not a Flame***. Only reason i ask is cause the procs on the 2hrs r higher than the DW's, so i figure thats how SoE balances out that u WILL PROC MORE ON DW's....Again im not sure whats up with that. So to the point. If the 3-second proc theroy is correct, let me ask u this. I have Master II Infuriate, +25%hast/dps....When im not tanking and im only dps i NEED that to go off as much as possible to maintain my high dps, cause i am ALWAYS low on power .When im dps my dps is accually LOWER than when i tank in offensive stand and 2her cause infuriate is 10% when i hit and 20% when i GET hit. With that said again i need infuriate  going off as much as possible (thats infuriate is the diff between 50-100 dps most rounds). So my question to u is if the 3-second proc thing is correct does that count for infuritate? Skullz Kage BB Server <div></div>

[xandez]

<div></div><div></div><div></div><a target="_blank" href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=30169&view=by_date_ascending&page=1">Link to DEV's post about proc % formula</a><font color="#ff9900">*EDIT*</font><font color="#ff9900"></font><font color="#ff9900">for lazys <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font><div><font color="#ffff00">Actual proc rates on weapons depend on a ratio of the delay of the weapon and the displayed chance to proc. The actual chance to proc is:</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"> </font></div><div><font color="#ffff00">(Weapon Delay / 3.0 Delay ) * Proc Percentage.</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00"> </font></div><div><font color="#ffff00">You can think of every procing weapon has having its proc percent chance to trigger every 3 seconds. That way, a longsword and a dagger will proc the same amount over time, even though a dagger may swing faster and yield a smaller proc chance per hit.</font></div><div><font color="#ffff00">===========================</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">Jared Sweatt</font><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#ffff00">EverQuest II Spells and Combat Designer </font></div>Theres that and... yes imho the 3.0s normalization rule affects all proccing thingys. So, the slower your wep the more you will proc from infuriate... or actually not more, you will have a HIGHER chance to proc / hit.++Xan <p><span class="date_text"></span><span class="time_text"> </span></p><p>Message Edited by xandez on <span class=date_text>10-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:59 AM</span>

[Kage8]

Thank you so much Xandez, you have been a great help for me. Skullz--- <div></div>