Dueling fun

[LumpyD]

<DIV>So, anyone else owning everyone they come against? Man this is fun stuff. Casters = no challenge (if necro gets fear off that can suck), Guardians = some challenege but I can put them down, Paladins = pain in the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] can go either way depending on their masters etc., Rangers = Meh, Fury = rofl, Mystic = Rofl, Troubador = dead, haven't tried any other classes really. That's about it for me so far.. Found against Guards/Paladins/SK defensive is the way to go, same with Wizards, Offensive for pretty much all else.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't get me started on arena, funnest add-on to game EVAR! lol. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone else loving it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[XensosKinein]

Out of curiousity, do taunts have any effect when dueling?

[KFizzle]

<P>I've only dueled against some guildies, but the results are as follows...I'm a 48 Zerker</P> <P>46 Swashbuckler</P> <P>I'm 2-0, the Swash was hard because he kept running around and sometimes would go just out of range of my CA's for the second that it would complete...the first fight he got me to the red, the second only the orange as i strung my stuns and interrupts better (i was just starting to play for the night on Tuesday and he had some time to adjust to the changes to his char and i hadnt much at all before the first fight...kept trying to use Raging Blows all night while equiped with Dual Wield cause i didnt know it needed a shield....despite the icon change, it wasnt popping up with the "Shield not equipped" message either)</P> <P>47 Wizard</P> <P>1-0, Ooooooooooooooooo that was just sexxy fun. Stuns and Interrupts galore. Started the fight off with Vanquish, then hit Frenzy and she was deep in the yellow, then Stunning Roar, Maul and a couple others and it was all she wrote, I think i only barely hit yellow and it regened my first tick after combat.</P> <P>45 Warden</P> <P>0-1, THIS Was the fight the Raging blows thing really woulda come in handy, and i didnt even fricken realize it yet ... I HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD Him but all my other CA's were on their timers, and he on Teamspeak was resigned to defeat because he was stunned and at 4% health...i didnt say anything about the timers (hoping he would give up and not heal himself) but he did, and then from there on it turned in his favor...it was a long fight though.</P> <P>So far I think we're really well off in the dueling department with our interrupts and stuns against casters. Also in the Arena with your own chars I went 7-0 in a nice fight that had level 46's and up, with several 50s. The ONLY Times i was in trouble was when some Necro i think (he was 48 or 49) Kept dropping this Bone trap thing on me (the name escapes me) and it would root me for nearly a minute ... i had no axes to throw so thankfully he either didnt know how much trouble i was in there, or was trying to help his own mates.</P> <P>Either Way, Zerkers kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] in Dueling/Arena stuff.</P>

[Nosnem]

yeah for interupts or stuns

[infernus006]

Yes, so far I have beaten a 50 wizard, warden, inquisitor, brigand, and bruiser.  The bruiser was by far the toughest for me to put down and he beat me once after I beat him twice out of the 3 fights we had.  That mega heal they have is a real pain and they can even fear you if they want and make you forfit the fight, although IMO that doesn't count (lol).  I can't believe they didn't have this in the game from the get go.  It adds a whole new dimension to the game and a nice one at that.  I have not tried any of the arena fighting yet, only dueling other players wherever we want to, which I'm enjoying quite a bit. The only effect that taunts have while dueling as far as I can tell is if the taunt has some extra effect attached to it other than hate, for example an interrupt or a direct damage.  However, I have only dueled other singe players by myself, I have not tried any group dueling, if that's even possible, so then I don't know how they would work in that situation, if at all.  <div></div>

[MillsFairchild]

<div></div>Me: 50 Berserker. I've only dueled a 50 Paladin and 50 Monk with this toon so far, but here's what went down: 50 Paladin <u>First fight</u>: I used my defensive stance and a fabled 2 hander.  He owned me pretty hard. <u>Second fight</u>: I switched to offensive stance with the same weapon.  It was like night and day.  I was destroying him with DPS.  It took every heal he had (LOH & his 5 minute heal) to keep himself up.  In the end, it was very close... but I think his full suit of ebon and rare/fabled gear did me in.  I think future duels with him could go either way.... especially since I've upgraded a few of the new spells to Adept 3 quality. 50 Monk <u>First fight</u>: I used the defensive stance.  He stifled and stunned me and proceeded to run over my like a lawnmower. <u>Second fight</u>: I switched to offensive.  Killed him in about 20 seconds.  Rampage for teh win! <u>Third fight</u>: Offensive.  Destroyed him in like 15 seconds.  He got a good stun off, but dropped like a fly on a bug zapper after that. Oh, and for the record... this was before they fixed the lowered stats after dueling bug.  The second fights against the pally and monk were with lowered stats (from my losing the first fight) and I didn't even realize it. <div></div><p>Message Edited by MillsFairchild on <span class=date_text>09-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:36 PM</span>

[Sabin the Gre]

<P>Just to give you all a heads up, at 50 the outlook changes some.</P> <P>Bruisers = Hard</P> <P>Wardens = Hard</P> <DIV>Swashes = Mod</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Casters = LOL</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically any class with a ton of stuns or great heals is going to be a bear.  Keep in mind I formed these opinions after only playing for 45 mins, and not having used my respec.  The warden was tough, b/c you have to lump all your damage on them up front.   Look at it like this.  If you don't get the Warden in the first 35-40 seconds, good game.  A good warden will regen faster than you can kill them.  Swashes at 50 have some sort of long range stun.  I mean I was being stunned before he got in range for me to trigger stunning roar, let alone any of the closer ones.  If you can survive the stun + swashie rampage its not to hard, but will be close every time (use defensive stance, no doubt).  I put bruiser's in the swashie pool.  By 50 they have about 4-5 stuns that are absolutely a bear to deal with.  I went 1-3 with our guild bruiser (again no respec).  I'm pretty sure after respec I'll be able to take out the bruiser + swash with more ease, but the warden you'll have to get lucky on the stuns.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note:  The people I'm dueling (Bruiser withstanding) are near full fabled and a heap of masters.  So keep in mind when I'm dueling this people you might not have the same difficulty in defeating them.  For example the punk [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] warden's armor was proc'ing a stun, likewise with stifles pooring out from the Swash.   I'd say against all class my resume the first night looked to be about 7-7.  I beat the swash best out of 5, lost to the bruiser best out of 3, the warden smoked me (I tried to use RGF, but the extra stun is more useful), and I murdered the casters.  </DIV>

[Espyderman]

No one will fight me. All i try and duel refuse it. I wondered if my class is overpowered and i wondered if i was feared all around simply by the class i choose. Seems i was right.

[Espyderman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> infernus006 wrote:<BR>Yes, so far I have beaten a 50 wizard, warden, inquisitor, brigand, and bruiser.  The bruiser was by far the toughest for me to put down and he beat me once after I beat him twice out of the 3 fights we had.  That mega heal they have is a real pain and they can even fear you if they want and make you forfit the fight, although IMO that doesn't count (lol).  I can't believe they didn't have this in the game from the get go.  It adds a whole new dimension to the game and a nice one at that.  I have not tried any of the arena fighting yet, only dueling other players wherever we want to, which I'm enjoying quite a bit.<BR><BR>The only effect that taunts have while dueling as far as I can tell is if the taunt has some extra effect attached to it other than hate, for example an interrupt or a direct damage.  However, I have only dueled other singe players by myself, I have not tried any group dueling, if that's even possible, so then I don't know how they would work in that situation, if at all.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Taunts should Root in Duels. Only purpose hate serves is to root the opponent in front of you cause he is really mad at ya.

[Espyderman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sabin the Great wrote:<BR> <P>Just to give you all a heads up, at 50 the outlook changes some.</P> <P>Bruisers = Hard</P> <P>Wardens = Hard</P> <DIV>Swashes = Mod</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Casters = LOL</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically any class with a ton of stuns or great heals is going to be a bear.  Keep in mind I formed these opinions after only playing for 45 mins, and not having used my respec.  The warden was tough, b/c you have to lump all your damage on them up front.   Look at it like this.  If you don't get the Warden in the first 35-40 seconds, good game.  A good warden will regen faster than you can kill them.  Swashes at 50 have some sort of long range stun.  I mean I was being stunned before he got in range for me to trigger stunning roar, let alone any of the closer ones.  If you can survive the stun + swashie rampage its not to hard, but will be close every time (use defensive stance, no doubt).  I put bruiser's in the swashie pool.  By 50 they have about 4-5 stuns that are absolutely a bear to deal with.  I went 1-3 with our guild bruiser (again no respec).  I'm pretty sure after respec I'll be able to take out the bruiser + swash with more ease, but the warden you'll have to get lucky on the stuns.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note:  The people I'm dueling (Bruiser withstanding) are near full fabled and a heap of masters.  So keep in mind when I'm dueling this people you might not have the same difficulty in defeating them.  For example the punk [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] warden's armor was proc'ing a stun, likewise with stifles pooring out from the Swash.   I'd say against all class my resume the first night looked to be about 7-7.  I beat the swash best out of 5, lost to the bruiser best out of 3, the warden smoked me (I tried to use RGF, but the extra stun is more useful), and I murdered the casters.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I literally stopeed using CAs in a fight against a warden just to give the warden a chance (below level 50). it was literally no challenge for a berserker to kill a sub 50 warden. kinda sad really for the wardens below 50. I guess post 50 its better...

[Ep]

<P>all my fights are 10secs or 20secs</P> <P>i use offensive stance ihave rgf</P> <P>i start off with stunning roar, (stun so i can pull off rampage) frenzy, vanquish, relentless and maybe mutilate or no quarter, they're pretty much dead by then, if i see them comming at me and we go toe to toe i'll cast that 44master reposte, goading defense or something.</P> <P>i can't beat healers if i don't have rampage up ppl would duel me constantly and i might or might not wait for rampage timer to pop up.</P> <P>i tried def stance that sucked, offensive stance ppl are petrified how fast they die.</P>

[MillsFairchild]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Epyx wrote: <div></div>i start off with stunning roar, (stun so i can pull off rampage) <hr></blockquote>I usually hit Rampage during the 5 second countdown to the duel beginning.  Why waste a stun trying to get it off?  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by MillsFairchild on <span class=date_text>09-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:34 PM</span>

[Nosnem]

<DIV>Sssssshhhhh jeep it down dont need another nerf..We are supposed to be complaining about our health regen that actually serve little to no purpose as far as I can tell. But yeah otherwise Zerker for the win. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I havent dueled any SKs yet.. I hear they are a force to be reckoned..Yay? or Nay? There is one with fabled gear I have been looking for and he says he can crush but I can never seem to coincide my log ins with him... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How about you guys how are you fairing against SKs?</DIV>

[Sabin the Gre]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Espyderman wrote:<BR><BR>I literally stopeed using CAs in a fight against a warden just to give the warden a chance (below level 50). it was literally no challenge for a berserker to kill a sub 50 warden. kinda sad really for the wardens below 50. I guess post 50 its better... <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Then he's either terrible at playing his class, or his gear was terrible.  RGF is admittedly the only way to go, but if he gets his HoT's up you're fooked.   Then again the warden I'm playing against is rocking full fabled, and more masters than you can shake a stick at.  I'll assure you when you play a good level 50+.  Unless you are doing LARGE sums of lump damage, he will be able to heal him/herself.  Also remember that using a manastone for a warden = free health.  260 damage for 150 power.  Off 150 power they can heal for a minimum of 500.   The other problem I was getting with him was his armor procs.  He was proc'ing lethargy on me (very annoying) which basically ensures that it'll be impossible if I don't lump damage him at the beginning.  As for random Wardens, I agree, they pretty much get destroyed.<BR>

[infernus006]

"i tried def stance that sucked, offensive stance ppl are petrified how fast they die" Well, let me just say that out of all of the duels I have had so far with other level 50 players, which I believe is about 10 right now, I have lost only one of those fights and I had my defense stance on for every one of them. <div></div>

[XensosKinein]

<DIV>Hey Infern,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have you gone up after a guard yet? I'm waiting for a chance to smack the crap out of our guard, but wanna make sure I know what to expect. I would any suggestions. I have a buttload of Master and Ad3 (almost all of my T5's) and full ebon armor/weaponsets and SBS or Imbued Cedar Tower. I'm figuring Defense at first to let him run out his power then Offensive to burn him down. What problems did you run into with guards. Of course, If I were to cast Ramp at the beginning... throw all my fast cast stuns/debuffs, I should be able to interupt his buffs before he gets them off and mow him down from there... Hmmm Decisions decisions</DIV>

[Sabin the Gre]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> XensosKinein wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hey Infern,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have you gone up after a guard yet? I'm waiting for a chance to smack the crap out of our guard, but wanna make sure I know what to expect. I would any suggestions. I have a buttload of Master and Ad3 (almost all of my T5's) and full ebon armor/weaponsets and SBS or Imbued Cedar Tower. I'm figuring Defense at first to let him run out his power then Offensive to burn him down. What problems did you run into with guards. Of course, If I were to cast Ramp at the beginning... throw all my fast cast stuns/debuffs, I should be able to interupt his buffs before he gets them off and mow him down from there... Hmmm Decisions decisions</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I know this was posted at infernus, but allow me to help you out.  Guard = the easiest fight you'll ever have, except for maybe a caster you have a nice string of procs against so they don't ever get a chance to root you.  Basically for a guard its a loose loose proposition.  They don't have heals, they don't have have big damage.  So basically they're screwed.  To give you an idea the guard I fought was full fabled with an RGF (he probably should've went shield, but it didn't matter).  Between the Ancient Combine Handguards (medium, but have Fortitude) and 2x Ring of Removals, plus all the regen buff's that berserkers get I was at like 95% health at the end of the fight.  If I wanted to really make things quick I could've went rgf, but I went shield + venemous voulge (not many people choose piercing resists) and it was a shame. 

[XensosKinein]

<P>Nice Sabin... thanks for the info. I had read a couple other posts from Zerks saying that they were getting bested by guards. I figured with their higher Mit and avoidance I might run into some issues. However, it sounds like I'll be able to pound him down pretty quick. I usually fight offensively with 2 imbued ebon C Axes, but also have an imbued ebon Assault axe, BBC, Heir Crook, Monsoon, and the BBC at my disposal (among some other weapons) I like using dual wield because I alwasy seem to be proccing something with them, whether it's gleaming strike, a counter, or of course Rampage (which blasts out Huge damage very quickly with Dual wield.) I'll give him a try next chance I get.. I think it should go pretty quick. He needs his [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] whipped too.</P> <P> </P>

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div>Xen, Nope, I haven't gottan the chance to fight a Guard yet but I do have a level 50 one in my guild now that I will surely get to duel sooner or later, maybe even tonight or sometime this weekend.  I'm looking forward to that.  I'll let you know how it goes.  All of the classes that I have dueled so far include a Wizard (3 or 4 times, I don't remember), Warden (once or twice), Inquisitor (once), Brigand (twice), and a Bruiser (3 times).  All were level 50, same as me.  The Bruiser was the only one I have lost to so far, 1 fight out of 3.  The Warden I faught, who is in my guild, told me that he did fight our 50 Guard and won.  But then he (the Warden) has gotten beat very badly by our level 50 Wizard every time he has faught him, who is also the same Wizard that I have faught and won against 3 or 4 times now (and who now refuses to even fight me or any Zerker at all anymore, lol).  And he also told me that the same Wizard faught and won against our 50 Guard as well and I watched him (the Wizard) smoke a 50 Illusionist two times in a row.  So it should be interesting <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>09-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:02 PM</span>

[XensosKinein]

<P>Yeah... I'm going to hunt him down tonight. I had to log the other night because I had to be to work early... He's a mouthy [Removed for Content] and started talking all kinds of smack. I'm going to thoroughly enjoy waxing the crap out of him. I just feel bad for the Temps... my GF plays temp and they are soooooo not meant for dueling. I stood around with my auto attack off so she wouldn't feel bad abut how quick she died. She'd hit, get countered, have to stop and heal, hit again... repeat until she ran out of power and died... poor thing. That's the only duel I've done so far. Pretty sure I can take just about any member of our guild. The other Zerker has the RGF and is the same lvl, but I have a ton of Masters on him and better armor and weapons. Still might be an interesting fight. Figure I'll win that one though. I don't thik he's quite got his toon down yet.</P> <P>I am having soooo much fun with a zerk if you haven't been able to tell yet</P>

[infernus006]

<div></div>Unfortunately I haven't had any luck getting a Guard to duel me yet.  All the ones I've spoken with so far since the patch have indicated to me that they are too unhappy with the combat changes and afraid that they will just get owned.  The 50 one that's in my guild hardly even adventures anymore, mostly just crafts now or plays with is lowbie scout alt.  I don't know if they are just overreacting or what.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I did however kick the crap out of a 50 Conjuror and a 51 Assasin last night.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>09-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:21 AM</span>

[MillsFairchild]

<div></div>I have yet to lose to a Guardian.  When I go Defensive (stance, 1-hander/shield), it's a close fight.  But when I go Offensive (stance, 2-hander), they don't stand a chance. It's funny to look at parses of those fights and realize just how much damage each of us absorbs compared to duels against other classes.  My output against an equal level guardian usually sits close to 90 DPS, while theirs is more like 40-55 DPS.  We just outdamage them while they under-damage us.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> In fact, a Guardian in my guild was so desperate to beat me that he used Unyielding Will for the 2,000 point heal or so when I dropped him.  Well... it didn't matter because I ended up knocking him down again.  I won the duel and his HP regened to the point where he stood up again.  A few seconds later, his heart exploded and down he went - for real this time!  Anyone got a rez?  I was laughing so hard... <div></div><p>Message Edited by MillsFairchild on <span class=date_text>09-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:37 PM</span>

[cr0wangel]

<P>I have not dueled much, but I enjoyed it so far. :smileyhappy: I dueled with a friend shadow knight, an assassin, a wizard, and bruiser. As others said, it's good to prepare some spells during the 5 seconds countdown, I usually go for Weapon Guard, Rampage, Anarchy, then the fight begin. About the stances, I would say use offensive against scouts and mages. Use no stance at all for fighters.</P> <P>I killed the assassin and wizard easily. The bruiser won the fight, as I was stuned most of the fight and of course they can heal themselves. Shadow knights are a challenge! With the lifetap / wards and their special spell (for 3000 of damage), my friend kicked by bottom twice. I managed to regain my honor in the last fight, I fought as if he was a caster, using a lot of stuns and interupts, so I could bring him down. I was always fighting with 2 weapons, I did not try to duel with a shield yet.<BR></P>

[Sabin the Gre]

<P>Alittle help for crushing bruisers.  </P> <P>While I champion the 2hand vs casters/healers (lump damage), I'm a strong proponent of shield + 1h vs other fighters.  Basically anything this side of a pally you can turtle, then explode with rampage (when you get it).  This is basically the strategy I adopted for bruisers.  At the beginning of the fight I switch to defensive stance, anarchy, offending defense, controlled rage and hit my counter attack.  From there I bow him till he decides he's man enough to attack (they can't do enough damage ranged to stay even with you for long).  Every bruiser will hit some combination of hammer punch, crushing blows, then string into their other attacks/stuns.  After the initial onslaught is over he's usually down to 80-85% health from counterattacks, repostes, etc. and I'm usually at 75% after I've weathered the storm.  From there I throw rampage and its game over as you can pretty much lock down the fight after that.   Take off offending defense, put on offensive stance and hit rampage.  Then link Vanquish to frenzy, to mutilate, to raging press, to relentless battering, to no quarter, to stunning roar, to wallop, to slaughter.  Usually I can get all that off while he/she is stunned.  If he's still alive I usually can interupt him once with my taunt, and then again with no quarter (its usually back up).  If he's a runner he gets some yew bow love in the butt.  After that combo if they're still alive I'd suggest switching back to defensive stance + offending defense + weapon guard because the crushing fury combo will be back up.  Use your bow till he comes back in, weather another storm, then lights out his [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].<BR></P>

[infernus006]

Personally I seem to have the best luck in duels while using my 1h and sheild and the defensive stance, regardless of the type of class I am fighting against.  So far I have beaten 2 wizards, a warden, an inquisitor, a brigand, 2 brusiers, a monk, a conjuror, and an assasin with this setup.  It seems that I can still do a pretty good amount of dps but the extra defense helps a lot against the higher dps classes.  I have yet to fight an sk or a guard yet but i expect they will be a good challenge.  So far the monks and bruisers have been my toughest opponents.<div></div>

[Styk]

atm i am lvl 52, ive defeated wizards,troubs,monk,brusier,ranger,assasins,guards ,paladins,coercer my lvl ( sometimes a lvl or 2 higher ) .... sk's can be a real problem with their HT up, Pet classes are a joke if you use the right CA combos, Fury's are hard, Templars can be really hard if you dont fight em right ( dont burn your power and have a screaming mace ) Paladins can be tricky as well.... , Warlocks are like wizzies in difficulty very 50/50 , Havent dueled a swashie, dirge, brigand shaman types inquistors yet.... my only real difficulty to be to be honest is an illusionist.... our AE taunt needs an interupt ability like our single target taunt does so it can have some type of use in PvP <div></div>

[Sabin the Gre]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR>atm i am lvl 52, ive defeated wizards,troubs,monk,brusier,ranger,assasins,guards ,paladins,coercer my lvl ( sometimes a lvl or 2 higher ) .... sk's can be a real problem with their HT up, Pet classes are a joke if you use the right CA combos, Fury's are hard, Templars can be really hard if you dont fight em right ( dont burn your power and have a screaming mace ) Paladins can be tricky as well.... , Warlocks are like wizzies in difficulty very 50/50 ,<BR><BR>Havent dueled a swashie, dirge, brigand shaman types inquistors yet....<BR><BR>my only real difficulty to be to be honest is an illusionist.... our AE taunt needs an interupt ability like our single target taunt does so it can have some type of use in PvP<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>If you think furies are hard you should pretty much try a warden.  I've said it before, but with duststorm up they're uber.  At master 1 it has a 20% chance when hit to knockback and cause blurred vision.  Our level 54 warden (I'm 52) wanted to duel the other night and I told him no.  He said he's leave dustorm down, so I dueled him.  Started off bowing to get him down alittle, then rampaged his [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and had enough in the tank to off him.  I'm just going to say if a warden uses duststorm then I honestly have no clue how to get around it, its that big of a difference.  Every 5th hit you're knocked back and we don't have 3 attacks (at 52) that can hit hard enough to kill them outright and overcome their regens.  Beyond that I'd have to say that high end paladins are my other greatest foe.  With master 1 heals, they're so efficient with mana/healing its stupid. </DIV>