Berseker and Tanking

[kr8ztwin]

<DIV>I know this topic is covered constantly but I have yet to see a solid post concerning the class defining difference of zerk and guards concerning raid mt.  I know that we have more skills based on damage and AOE and all of that but with a defence cap, what really stands a guard out from a zerk in a well set up Raid group as the MT?  If a zerk master2's on defensive stances and buffs STA can he be a solid tank?  We have so many similar skills as far as defense is concerned.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I noticed that alot of the Guardians defensive buffs are for the group as well.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm still looking at all the data avaiable to me on the forums but I am very curious about our "potential" utility as a MT in larger battles.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a personal note:  I just wanna see my little Rat Zeker take on a big Raid mob so I can get some screenies! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[eqaddi]

<DIV>I would just wait for an answer to this question for a week. What we are right now doesn't mean a whole lot as that is going to change in 6 days.</DIV>

[pharacyde]

<DIV>Basicly, on the defensive stance a zerker has +x cold resist and teh guardiand has +x heat resist. So as an example, a zerker could tank vox and a guardian darathar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just an example.</DIV>

[Tudd]

First, let me start out by saying Berserkers after the revamp are capable of tanking any Epic in the game. Guardians still hold their edge on taking damage, although the gap is smaller now. We continue to hold an edge when it comes to aggro management. Guardians stand out in their ability to buff up their defenses more than any other tank. The defense cap merely means that you cannot achieve more than 80% mitigation/avoidance vs. the mob. However, because Guardians can buff up their defense/mitigation more, they will have slightly more avoidance but more importantly will have more mitigation. A Bersker with, say, 4320 mitigation and a Guardian with 4600 mitigation will both effectively tank a lvl54 mob the same. However, on a level 55 mob the Guardian will tank him better, because the Guardian is still hitting the cap while the Berserker is not. On the level 55 mob, the Berserker will be mitigating 78.5 percent of the damage while the Guardian will still be mitigating 80%. Against a lvl56 mob, the Berserker will be mitigating 77%, while the Guardian is still mitigating 80%. These numbers are just examples to highlight how Guardians can be preferrable, given enough mitigation. If neither the Guardian nor the Berserker are hitting the 80% cap against a mob, then it really boils down to who has the higher mitigation and better avoidance. Let's say, for example, the Guardian has 4000 mitigation and 41% avoidance. Let's say the Berserker has 3900 mitigation and 42% avoidance. Let's say the mob is Lvl 50. Let's say a mob swings a 100 times for 1000 damage, just to make things simple. Guardian avoids 41% of the hits, so 59,000 damage is unavoided. Mob is Lvl50, so with 4000 mitigation, he mitigates 80% of the damage. So he takes 11,800 damage. Berserker avoids 42% of the hits, so 58,000 damage is unavoided. His mitigation is 78%. So he takes 12760 damage. Because the Guardians mitigation is higher, and even though the Berserker avoids a little better, the Guardian still takes less damage. The Berserker would have to avoid 45% of the time to make up the difference in mitigation. In most cases, the Guardian will have have both better mitigation and avoidance. So really, if the Zerker can reach the mitigation cap against a mob or come close, then a Zerker becomes the better choice, since he has higher aggro. If he can't reach the cap but a Guardian can and the difference is sufficiently large, and aggro isn't an issue, then the Guardian will be the better choice. Really, the choice of MT is a often more of a situational need. The encounter may favor one tank or another. But in many instances, the two classes are interchangeable for tanking purposes. Fear not, young rodent. Your quest of tanking Dragons for Fabled Cheese is a viable goal. <span>:smileywink:</span><div></div>

[scl]

<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2"> Nice explination Tuddar. I'm sure its not exactely like that but your point is certainly clear! I'm not sure how things are going to turn out today, but I can tell you that I currently tank raids and can do so quite well. <P> I'm pretty sure that our raw tanking abilities will increase so I see no reason why a Berserker can't MT. I personally believe in giving people a chance anyway. If you can do the job I don't see why you souldnt be allowed to tank. <P> Fabled cheese. Classic. *laughs* <P> </font>

[kr8ztwin]

wooooot i'm so looking forward to my "Fabled Cheddar Cap of the Zerker".  :robotvery-happy:

[Memmoch]

Seems like a good explanation...but I speak from experience of being a beserker and a raid MT and I can tell you your leaving some very key elements out of the picture.  After the combat changes who's to say...BUT as a berserker I raid tank x4 mobs just as good if not <u>better </u>than guardians.  Gear plays a huge part in that sure, because my guild goes off of need before greed and we balance items received across the board.  So the guardian and me are both roughly the same in mitigation/avoidance.  I have a edge on him in hps and he has a edge on me in avoidance(was I believe 4%?).  I have a huge advantage over him in taunts...little known fact...guardians do <u>NOT </u>get a raid group encounter taunt that cycles.  We do.  My guild gives it to me to tank raid mobs while generating a heck of a lot more aggro while he uses his protection buffs to buff me....so far it's worked flawlessly.  After the revamp who's to say though lol.  Anyone that says that guardians have a difinite advantage over berserkers in tanking is merly trying to hog the MT role.  Biggest difference is with guardians they avoid a tad better but it takes longer to kill...with a berserker in the same gear as a guardian we enable the raid force to unleash more to kill the mobs faster.  It's all in what your guild wants and is set up for. Rant off? <div></div>

[Tudd]

<span><blockquote><hr>Memmoch wrote:Seems like a good explanation...but I speak from experience of being a beserker and a raid MT and I can tell you your leaving some very key elements out of the picture.  After the combat changes who's to say...BUT as a berserker I raid tank x4 mobs just as good if not <u>better </u>than guardians.  Gear plays a huge part in that sure, because my guild goes off of need before greed and we balance items received across the board.  So the guardian and me are both roughly the same in mitigation/avoidance.  I have a edge on him in hps and he has a edge on me in avoidance(was I believe 4%?).  I have a huge advantage over him in taunts...little known fact...guardians do <u>NOT </u>get a raid group encounter taunt that cycles.  We do.  My guild gives it to me to tank raid mobs while generating a heck of a lot more aggro while he uses his protection buffs to buff me....so far it's worked flawlessly.  After the revamp who's to say though lol.  Anyone that says that guardians have a difinite advantage over berserkers in tanking is merly trying to hog the MT role.  Biggest difference is with guardians they avoid a tad better but it takes longer to kill...with a berserker in the same gear as a guardian we enable the raid force to unleash more to kill the mobs faster.  It's all in what your guild wants and is set up for. Rant off? <hr></blockquote>I purposefully didn't go into all the other key elements, as you say, because his question was really quite to the point: </span>What really stands a guard out from a zerk in a well set up Raid group as the MT? So I kept my response mostly focused on explaining that. I just illustrated a little to help him understand with some simple numbers what that Guardian advantage equates into. Now, if he has asked the question: What really stands a Berserker out from Guardian on raids, then I would have gone into those details. I think it's great you posted some personal experience for him to go by, but please understand my post was succinct for a deliberate reason. If he comes back and wants to know more intracacies of Berserker raid tanking, I'm sure we'll have some good posts from folks letting him know why we shine as raid tanks. <div></div>