New Training options

[kono]

<DIV>The latest Beta patch did away with the old concept of training abilities, and instead, gives us the option to simply upgrade one of four choices to Master II quality.  I will list the options, because it may influence some purchasing decisions between now and LU 13.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Level 10:</DIV> <DIV>Call to Arms</DIV> <DIV>Kick</DIV> <DIV>Shout</DIV> <DIV>Toughness</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Level 20:</DIV> <DIV>Anger</DIV> <DIV>Battle Tactics</DIV> <DIV>Concussion</DIV> <DIV>Soldier's Stance</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Level 30:</DIV> <DIV>Barrage</DIV> <DIV>Battle Chant</DIV> <DIV>Provoking Defense</DIV> <DIV>Wall of Fury</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Level 40:</DIV> <DIV>Greater Fury</DIV> <DIV>Relentless Battering</DIV> <DIV>Sunder</DIV> <DIV>War Chant</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Level 50:</DIV> <DIV>Bully</DIV> <DIV>Destructive Rage</DIV> <DIV>Infuriate</DIV> <DIV>Unflinching Will</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Level 60:</DIV> <DIV>Courageous Will</DIV> <DIV>Frenzied Blows</DIV> <DIV>Outrage</DIV> <DIV>Taunting Defense</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll post pics of several of these later, but the Master II Courageous Will (defensive stance) buffs mitigation by 986, and defense/parry by 15.0  (up from 696 & 10.6 at Adept I).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From the level 50 choices, only Destructive Rage and Infuriate are not replaced by 60.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>najena.konk</DIV>

[Adrenachro]

<DIV>Woo!  Thanks for that info Konk!  Personally I'm quite happy about the fact that we can choose to go really Offensive or really Defensive, and it seems that the new "Training Options" will be going a big way to facilitating that choice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think this information brings the Combat Changes full circle... I mean, depending on what choices you make and what stances you pick, you really can fulfill either a tank or medium-dps/buff role.  Yes, the Berserker was ALWAYS comfortable in the tank/medium-dps role, and I think the CC's have reinforced that.  I do hope our Guardian brothers have similar 'flexibility' in their choices, and looking at their skill sets, I think they well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>VERY interested in seeing the /examine on those skills - are you saying we can actually INSPECT our training choices before we pick them!?</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

I think its a shame that they have done away with specialized training abilities.

[Fiezera]

I'll post some Zerker Master II spell's SS later when server becomes stable. :smileywink:

[Khal]

I logged on to check them out and was only offered T5 choices.

[kono]

<DIV>Yeah, Khalad, it's strange.  I don't know if it's a consequence of being copied or what.  I was only given level 60 and level 50 options on Konk, and only level 50 options on Konkx and Konkxx (who are still level 50).  I used a /respec on one of them to get the level 10-40 choices.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Looking at the choices, though, it isn't as though you'd really care about missing out on the lower level choices.  Maybe Battle Tactics, which is our only HP buff now...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By the way, Master II Destructive Rage?  66 HP regen to the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>najena.konk</DIV>

[infernus006]

<div></div>From what I can see at this point, when I get my respect I'm definitely going to pick the upgrade for Battle Tactics (wish like hell I'd done that the first time anyway), maybe the one for Call to Arms too since I still use that at level 50...Provoking Defense looks nice...War Chant possibly or Sunder (depending on how it compares to my ad3 of Fearsome Shout), Destructive Rage, and Taunting Defense (yeah I tank a lot as it is now so that will be nice for me). <div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>08-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:07 AM</span>

[Donners]

<DIV>So ...the special Abilities we got before are just gone?</DIV>

[kono]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Donnersam wrote:<BR> <DIV>So ...the special Abilities we got before are just gone?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yes.</P> <P>najena.konk</P>

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>I don't think they're really gone per se, they just won't have a special name anymore.  For example, currently the special upgrade for Battle Tactics is called Uthro's Superior Tactics and is of ad2 quality compared to the original.  With the revamp I guess it's just going to be an ad2 of Battle Tactics itself if you pick that, with similar or perhaps even better effects than the ones in place now.  No big deal IMO.  Just aleviates some confusion I think, which is a good thing.<p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>08-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:16 PM</span>

[kono]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> infernus006 wrote:<BR>I don't think they're really gone per se, they just won't have a special name anymore.  For example, currently the special upgrade for Battle Tactics is called Uthro's Superior Tactics and is of ad2 quality compared to the original.  With the revamp I guess it's just going to be ad2 of Battle Tactics itself if you pick that, with similar or perhaps even better effects than the ones in place now.  No big deal IMO.  Just aleviates some confusion I think, which is a good thing.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Well, yes, they're really gone.  Today, for each Training option you have, you still have the original art in your book.  When this change goes live in LU 13, those Training rewards will simply be deleted.  You'll get the green + button, which will give you the option to upgrade one of the four spells for each tier to Master II quality.  There are no extra effects with these upgrades, nothing that adds flavor or abilities we wouldn't already have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>najena.konk</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[infernus006]

<div></div>The only thing I'm really wondering about now is what if you already have ad3 of Battle Tactics (like I do)...how will the special ad2 version of it that will be available after the revamp compare to it then?  Currently the special upgrade version of that spell adds str as well as hp...my ad3 version of it currently does not have the str bonus, just a bit more hp compared to the ad1 (which kind of sucks).  Will the ad3 of Battle Tactics have the extra str buff on it as well then after the revamp or not?  Because if so then I would be better off picking something else when I do my respec...but if not then that makes the ad3 inferior to the ad2 of the exact same spell IMO, which is kind of messed up.  :  Bleh. Or, if what you're saying is true, then the new ad2 version of Battle Tactics won't even have an str buff on it anymore?  Doh <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>08-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:20 PM</span>

[Goozman]

It's not adept 2, it's master 2. You just get to upgrade one of four spells/skills to master 2, no new effects.

[kono]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> infernus006 wrote:<BR> The only thing I'm really wondering about now is what if you already have ad3 of Battle Tactics (like I do)...how will the special ad2 version of it that will be available after the revamp compare to it then?  Currently the special upgrade version of that spell adds str as well as hp...my ad3 version of it currently does not have the str bonus, just a bit more hp compared to the ad1 (which kind of sucks).  Will the ad3 of Battle Tactics have the extra str buff on it as well then after the revamp or not?  Because if so then I would be better off picking something else when I do my respec...but if not then that makes the ad3 inferior to the ad2 of the exact same spell IMO, which is kind of messed up.  :  Bleh.<BR><BR>Or, if what you're saying is true, then the new ad2 version of Battle Tactics won't even have an str buff on it anymore?  Doh <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <P>Message Edited by infernus006 on <SPAN class=date_text>08-25-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:20 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'll let the picture answer your questions.</P> <P><IMG src="http://hodstock.com/kono/battle%20tactics%20training.jpg"></P> <DIV>najena.konk</DIV>

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div>Oh i see...well I agree that sucks [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] then.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> When I saw Master II instead of Adept II I was thinking holy crap that's even better...but nm it doesn't look all that great to me now.  Looks rather lame in fact. This still seems odd to me though, because I saw a screenshot someone posted earlier of Uthro's Superior Tactics from the test server showing that it gave +30 str instead of the current 19...so now they are just totally scrapping that spell altogether or is this new system just an experiment they threw out on the test server or what?  Bah I hate this, it's so confusing!<p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>08-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:17 PM</span>

[kono]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> infernus006 wrote:<BR> <BR>This still seems odd to me though, because I saw a screenshot someone posted earlier of Uthro's Superior Tactics from the test server showing that it gave +30 str instead of the current 19 <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Changes to spells and items on beta happen weekly, if not twice.  The spell you saw no longer exists.  Even everything I've posted here might be obsolete by this time next week.  <BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>najena.konk</DIV>

[kono]

<P>Here are the level 50 options:</P> <P><IMG src="http://hodstock.com/kono/bully%20training.jpg"></P> <DIV><IMG src="http://hodstock.com/kono/unflinching%20will%20training.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://hodstock.com/kono/destructive%20rage%20training.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://hodstock.com/kono/infuriate%20training.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And here's the one level 60 option I have pictures of so far:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://hodstock.com/kono/courageous%20will%20training.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enjoy!  Remember, all beta info is subject to drastic change. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>najena.konk</DIV><p>Message Edited by konofo on <span class=date_text>08-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:40 AM</span>

[MillsFairchild]

Well, they're all nice upgrades!!  Can't I <i>please </i>have all four?  Plllleeeeasssseee?! <div></div>

[-Aonein-]

If it stays that way like it is its going to be a very hard toss up between Unflinching Will and Infuriate. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ill probally be going Infuriate Master II for lvl 50 and Courageous WIll Master II at 60.</DIV><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>08-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:28 AM</span>

[kono]

<P>I'm tempted to take the level 50 defensive stance and pick either Outrage (single target taunt) or Taunting Defense (HTL line) at 60.  The Master II Unflinching Will is superior to the Adept I version of the level 58 stance, not only for its mitigation increases, but in that it will reduce less offense than any version of the level 58 stance will.</P> <P>I don't like Infuriate, because War Chant just seems generally better.  If you're using a stance, you won't be using both of these.</P> <DIV>Besides Infuriate, Destructive Rage is the only other option that isn't replaced by 60.  I don't know if the value is as impressive, but it's hard to scoff at having 66 regen from that, 30-something from an Adept+ Blood Boil, and 53+ from an imbued chest.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>najena.konk</DIV>

[infernus006]

Hey you know what...that Couragous Will does look nice I think I will get the master2 of that at level 60 if this is the way it's going to be then.  Darnit why do they have to make the choices so hard?  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Ok if I had to pick all of these right now I would have to say Call to Arms, Battle Tactics, Provoking Defense, War Chant, Destructive Rage, and Courageous Will.  Yeah. <div></div>

[kono]

<P>That's pretty much what I picked:</P> <P><IMG src="http://hodstock.com/kono/provoking%20defense%20training.jpg"></P> <DIV><IMG src="http://hodstock.com/kono/war%20chant%20training.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Based on the numbers for Provoking Defense, I'd expect a Master II Taunting Defense to proc about 290 Threat and 230-370 damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>najena.konk</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<P>HP regen i dont see being really that important unless you PvP alot and even then it all depends on how it works in live. Some class's might not even be able to beat us if we can stack 150+ hp regen, so for all we know, after it gets launched and goes live it has the potential to be nerfed and not stack no more making only one HP regen buff working at any given time. So unless you are going to pvp alot, then id say HP regen wont be that big of a difference, so for me Adept III HP regen will be fine.</P> <P>Taunts also will be fine, im happy with Adept III taunts, what i want to know is do these stack increasing your chances of Berserking if playing a offensive mode? So can you have both up at the same time increasing your amount of Berserk :</P> <P><IMG src="http://hodstock.com/kono/war%20chant%20training.jpg"></P> <P><IMG src="http://hodstock.com/kono/infuriate%20training.jpg"></P> <P>I see Infuriate being alot better then War Chant if your tanking because of the 30% chance to berserk when taking damage, War Chant i see being extremelly useful in raids. I can see us now going from MT group down into scout groups increasing there damage and attack speed.</P> <P>If you arent MT in a group or raid, having both of these wouldnt hurt to increase your own DPS plus the groups while on the other hand if you wanted to be MT you still have the option of going Master II quaility Courageous Will at 60, thats 2 more quaility levels then Adept III.</P> <P>The lvl 58 Defensive stance Courageous Will is by far better then Unflinching Will, its 200+ more mitigation, 500+ more cold resistance and is only 1.4 more decrease in offensive abilitys, goes from 7.4 to 8.8. Just remember, Unflinching Will in game at the current moment is only a decrease of 4 to offensive skills, it will be double after the CC, so a decrease of 1.4 more for fair bit extra mitigation / cold resist is worth it in my book. It also depends on what class's can buff offensive skill stats up after the cc too, you may just be able to get those skill points you lose from defensive stances back, and it might be possible to hit the cap for offensive skills all depending on what group set up you have etc etc.</P> <P>Anyways for me ill be going Infuriate at 50 and Courageous Will at 60, i have Adept III Relentless Battering atm, so if the increase isnt a huge one from Adept III to Master II ill skip that and go with War Chant for extra utility in raids or groups im not MT in, but ill probally take Master II Relentless Battering. :smileywink:</P>

[Azr]

<DIV>Anyone in beta or on test by chance have any pics of those skills at master 1?  Would help alot in deciding on what to choose.  </DIV>

[Donners]

If they would finally transfer me to beta I could give you some shots from T5 masters ...

[Khal]

<DIV>War chant master 1 is a value of 21% instead of the 22% in master 2, not worth upgrading if you have that.  Infurite masters (or adepts) do not exist as the skill was bugged for so long, that might be the best choice for T5.</DIV>

[infernus006]

Doh...you know what...I already have ad3 of War Chant so maybe I would be better off just sticking with that and going with the m2 of Infuriate then?  I still only have ap2 of Infuriate right now and from what I understand Focus Rage is going away and Infuriate is taking it's place as our main berserk procing buff.  And I like the idea of having my personal berserk buff being better than my group one.  Well...it all depends on how things stack because since I tank so much I have my defensive stance on like 99% of the time and I don't foresee that changing after the revamp.  So will I still be able to have Unflinching/Couragious Will and Infuriate on at the same time or not?  Is Infuriate considered an "offensive stance" now?  If so then it probably won't stack with our defense buff anymore after the revamp then right?  I'm assuming that War Chant will though since it's just a group buff.  But then does War Chant and Infuriate even stack with each other?  Man this is sooo confusing.  I'm telling you what, when it crap hits live all us high levels, especially those of us that didn't get a chance to play on test, are gonna be like [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] because we haven't gotten to actually PLAY with any of these new spells and spell lines that are being thrown on us like we would have if we had started all over from level 1 so we have no way of knowing what stacks with what and what doesn't and we're probably gonna wind up totally screwing ourselves up because we don't know what really does what under what circumstances and we have no way of knowing anything about the way things are gonna be except by reading what other people from test have posted here on these forums and then we don't even know if that's the way things are really gonna be in the end or not until the changes actually hit for real.  DAM YOU SOE!!!!!!  I swear to god if they make me screw up my char I'm gonna SUE them for it.  LOL <div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<P>All Defensive stances take 3 concentration, Soilders Stance, Unflinching Will and Couragoeus Will. All Offensive Stances, Fury, Greater Fury and Unbrilded Fury take 3 concentration points so no none will stack and you can only use one, ethier Defensive or Offensive, the choice is yours.</P> <P>As for what can be used with what or what stacks with what, im not sure, maybe some of the berserker on beta might be kind enough as to point out what stacks with what and what choices we have when using certain stances etc.</P> <p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>08-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:07 AM</span>

[infernus006]

<div></div><div></div>Oh yeah, ok, the Fury line is the offensive stance now...I forgot.  I will remember that now.  So in that case Infuriate should still stack with the defense stance then right?  God I hope so.  If so then I'm getting the M2 of that instead of War Chant...I think.  That sucks I can't have Unbridled Fury (which I got AD3 for dammit) and Unflinching Will on at the same time anymore though like I do now but I guess it does make sense that way.<p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>08-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:05 AM</span>

[Sabin the Gre]

I'm going to toss this out there.  I was lookin through the paladin threads earlier and found their version of Unflinching Will (i.e. their defensive stance).   At Adept 3 it was listed as increasing mitigation by 616, while the master 2 increased mitigation by 748.   Can anyone on Beta give the listed mitigation for an Adept 3 Unflinching?

[infernus006]

<div></div>I saw a screenshot of it at ad1 on another thread that shows it increases mit for 528.  That's only at ad1 though. Here's the thread:  http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=13819 Going by that I can imagine the ad3 version of it to be really close if not better than the ad3 verison of the Pally one you saw. <div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>08-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:41 PM</span>

[kono]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sabin the Great wrote:<BR>I'm going to toss this out there.  I was lookin through the paladin threads earlier and found their version of Unflinching Will (i.e. their defensive stance).   At Adept 3 it was listed as increasing mitigation by 616, while the master 2 increased mitigation by 748.   Can anyone on Beta give the listed mitigation for an Adept 3 Unflinching? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, the Master II Unflinching Will is also +748 mitigation, matching your Paladin numbers, so that's enough reason to assume the Adept III Unflinching Will is also +616 mitigation.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>najena.konk</DIV>

[MillsFairchild]

<span><blockquote><hr>konofo wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Sabin the Great wrote:I'm going to toss this out there.  I was lookin through the paladin threads earlier and found their version of Unflinching Will (i.e. their defensive stance).   At Adept 3 it was listed as increasing mitigation by 616, while the master 2 increased mitigation by 748.   Can anyone on Beta give the listed mitigation for an Adept 3 Unflinching? <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>Well, the Master II Unflinching Will is also +748 mitigation, matching your Paladin numbers, so that's enough reason to assume the Adept III Unflinching Will is also +616 mitigation. <div> </div> <div>najena.konk</div><hr></blockquote>The guardian's "Fortified Stance" shows the exact same numbers as well... further solidifying your assumption: <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=15600&jump=true" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=15600&jump=true</a></span><div></div>