2H vs DW after revamp?

[MellowBob]

Will the almost-instant cast time of our dd/aoe skills and lack of haste affect  your choice of weapons after revamp?  We've been debating this in guild and it's speculated that fast DW will be favored over a slow 2H. Thoughts, experiences and opinions anyone? <div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Cant really speculate on 2handers cause ive used DW all along except when fighting Boss or Raid mobs where i go One hander and Shield. I have how ever tried 2 hand weps and i just was never happy with them, then again i never had a 2 hander worth using ethier or that did more DPS then my current DW set up. With DW imbued cedar batons i can do 170 - 200 dps no problem.</P> <P>The biggest problem with a decent 2 hand wep is they have long delay times on them and thats why we were doing massive DPS with 2 handers now as the system is because a 3.9 sec wep could effectively become a 1.9 second wep, where on the other hand DW weps or <STRONG><U>ALL</U></STRONG> weps for that matter are capped at a 1.0 second delay if you can get enough haste, which i know for a fact i can when DWing to make my DW's become 1.0 second delay weps which is where they lack in DPS plus the proc rate is a hell of alot lower for our AoE procs, if you try DW and use CA's like Bloodrage and Rampage there is a huge difference in proc rates compaired to a 2 hander, but im more of a stats man which is why i go with DW's for the extra stats.</P> <P>With the loss in Haste + Berserker haste we will take after the combat changes its going to be hard for people to maintain that sort of DPS with a 2 hander because they cant lower there delay like they could before, but on the other hand, they might up the damage out put on 2 hands weps to compensate for the lose in haste, then again they could do nothing at all.</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>08-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:42 AM</span>

[Strewth]

Well, the truth about slow 2 handers and DPS is all about how the game mechanics calculate procs based on base weapon speed, the royal great flail is hands down the most popular (and prolific) slow 2 hander out there, basicaly as the wep swings at 3.8, the proc is calculated at that speed, IE: has a higher chance to proc (there is a huge post detailing exactaly how this works), add haste and CA's (yes they proc on CA's) and you'll find that the 300 damage proc goes off an ubelieveable amount. Lets not forget riposte, hurts to spin a mob with dual weild, less chance of it with the 2 hander. Now, 170 to 200 isn't what I'd call big DPS from a Zerker, but it does depend on how the toon is played (ask Sabin to post some of his parse's). I personally gave up DW at around 40, I find I DPS harder with my 2 handed prismatic (around the 280 mark and at about 220 with DW), I do however carry cedar DW's for raids like Tremblar when using rampage to doubble my fun, but once per hour is hardly worth it atm. The answer is weather or not  the proc rate calculation has in fact been reworked for the revamp. As for being a stats man, the batons combined add 22 str, 18 agility, 58 health and 80 power. The Pirmatic great sword adds 15 stam, 38 str, 60 health and +3 to slashing, so really it's not an issue the stats you get from high end weapons, most are very nice, it moreover comes down to what you prefer to use, and as DPS is going to be de-tuned it's a suck it and see as the combat changes are far from what they will be when it goes live. I personaly raid tank almost as much as I MA, I love the versatility being a Zerker offers, and am looking forward to the changes what ever they bring. <div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Strewth wrote:<BR>Well, the truth about slow 2 handers and DPS is all about how the game mechanics calculate procs based on base weapon speed, the royal great flail is hands down the most popular (and prolific) slow 2 hander out there, basicaly as the wep swings at 3.8, the proc is calculated at that speed, IE: has a higher chance to proc (there is a huge post detailing exactaly how this works), add haste and CA's (yes they proc on CA's) and you'll find that the 300 damage proc goes off an ubelieveable amount. Lets not forget riposte, hurts to spin a mob with dual weild, less chance of it with the 2 hander. Now, 170 to 200 isn't what I'd call big DPS from a Zerker, but it does depend on how the toon is played (ask Sabin to post some of his parse's). I personally gave up DW at around 40, I find I DPS harder with my 2 handed prismatic (around the 280 mark and at about 220 with DW), I do however carry cedar DW's for raids like Tremblar when using rampage to doubble my fun, but once per hour is hardly worth it atm.<BR><BR>The answer is weather or not  the proc rate calculation has in fact been reworked for the revamp.<BR><BR>As for being a stats man, the batons combined add 22 str, 18 agility, 58 health and 80 power. The Pirmatic great sword adds 15 stam, 38 str, 60 health and +3 to slashing, so really it's not an issue the stats you get from high end weapons, most are very nice, it moreover comes down to what you prefer to use, and as DPS is going to be de-tuned it's a suck it and see as the combat changes are far from what they will be when it goes live.<BR><BR>I personaly raid tank almost as much as I MA, I love the versatility being a Zerker offers, and am looking forward to the changes what ever they bring.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I duo 90% of the time with a Templar, so 170 - 200 DPS with no added buffs except for my own self buffs towards offensive is pretty good in a duo and its a constant number. If i had a 2 hander i would probally do more but i dont or cant get one at the moment to beat my DW set up.</P> <P>What you say about how 2 hander weps based on procing of base wep speed is what i was refering too in my post, like i said a 2 hander that can be brought down to a 1.9 second delay still procs like a 3.8 second delay weapon would, im pretty sure the guy you speak was a guy named Banditman who did those posts cause he had quite a large number of those posts and caculations when they first gave us the formula on how to work out the proc per wep.</P></DIV>

[Zealbour]

<DIV>Attack speed is not capped at 1s, Thats only in old eq1. With the new system your haste % total is added directly to the weapons delay. IE: a 1.5s weapon at +100% will in fact be a .75sec or a 50% haste will give you a 1sec delay. With Tides of war and ill/coer haste and a 1/2h weapon you can land more blows than seconds in a mobs life. EQ1 did their haste differently your haste was deducted from the delay rather than multiplied like in EQ2 allowing weapons to swing at 0second and dealling unlimited damage they made a rule saying weapons cannot siwing faster than 10delay. It only made sence when they developed the math of the new combat engine they adjusted the way the game looked at haste as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Truthfully in the end now and after the revamp the weapon should be dictated by the scenario. IE weapons that proc a heal on mobs that aoe or perhaps use the weapon that does not have a killer dot when you might need mobs mezed. When AOEing I use some weapons with higher Procs than others just to milk the advantage. More Importantly I use weapons with as low a delay as possable when I use "Rampage". There are a million reasons to use different weapons. In the end its having a selection to fit the scenario thats most important.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ill get some SS's soon to prove this to be the case as I was also following the old way of seeing haste until I was shown it myself by my guild assassin with more than 24hits in a 10 sec fight(straight autoattack).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry i know this doesnt answer any questions, but I hate seeing people avoid some weapons assuming they lose dps on fast DW'ers. Two 25dps Dw'ers does equate to One 50dps twohander. As a weaponsmith as well I noticed this.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zealbourne wrote:<BR> <DIV>Attack speed is not capped at 1s, Thats only in old eq1. With the new system your haste % total is added directly to the weapons delay. IE: a 1.5s weapon at +100% will in fact be a .75sec or a 50% haste will give you a 1sec delay. With Tides of war and ill/coer haste and a 1/2h weapon you can land more blows than seconds in a mobs life. EQ1 did their haste differently your haste was deducted from the delay rather than multiplied like in EQ2 allowing weapons to swing at 0second and dealling unlimited damage they made a rule saying weapons cannot siwing faster than 10delay. It only made sence when they developed the math of the new combat engine they adjusted the way the game looked at haste as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Truthfully in the end now and after the revamp the weapon should be dictated by the scenario. IE weapons that proc a heal on mobs that aoe or perhaps use the weapon that does not have a killer dot when you might need mobs mezed. When AOEing I use some weapons with higher Procs than others just to milk the advantage. More Importantly I use weapons with as low a delay as possable when I use "Rampage". There are a million reasons to use different weapons. In the end its having a selection to fit the scenario thats most important.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ill get some SS's soon to prove this to be the case as I was also following the old way of seeing haste until I was shown it myself by my guild assassin with more than 24hits in a 10 sec fight(straight autoattack).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry i know this doesnt answer any questions, but I hate seeing people avoid some weapons assuming they lose dps on fast DW'ers. Two 25dps Dw'ers does equate to One 50dps twohander. As a weaponsmith as well I noticed this.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Acually you are wrong because there is a Dev post stating that the cap for wep delay is 1 second flat, you cant go any lower then that, i wouldnt have said it if i didnt know what i was talking about. It was 5 months ago he posted that, it would take me awhile to find it, if i could, but i think i might be able too.</P> <P>The Dev posted it when they first released the formula on how to work out the proc ratio per weapon. Now assuming that the theroy you say was ture, then 1.2 second weps with 150% haste could become 0.40 second delay weps, with the game having another lets say, 5 years to go before they decide to make EQ3 ( if they do, its called hyperthecally speaking ), Haste spells will only get better and so will Worn haste items, this means that there could be a chance that we could break 200% haste and a 1.2% wepaon becomes a blistering 0.20 delay wep, SoE will never and i repeat, NEVER EVER let this happen, its basically no delay, the speed and dmg you could do would be amazing, which is why its capped at 1 second flat.</P> <P>Can you imagine a RGF with a 1 second delay timer? Think about it now, let alone what comes out in time to come.</P>

[mccon]

Could you post a link to the post -aonein-? I have personally looked at alot of logs and when using you fast DWers you will see 2 attacks within the same second. Considering there is no double attack in EQ2 the only way to explain this is that the weapon had to have a delay of less then a second. The log is only accurate to the second and can not display milliseconds which continues the myth that the lowest delay is one second. 50 Zerker PF

[Schmalex23]

<DIV>Actually, as a DW zerker i have tested the min weapon speed.  I couldnt say for sure what the exact number is but i can say that i dont get a dps increase using a 1.2 vs a 1.5 weapon.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also to compare a prismatic vs 2 imbued weapons on stats its just goofy.  If you are going to do that, compare a prismatic vs a prismatic w/ imbued.  Me personally i run with a pris baton and a cedar, giving me 10 sta and 25 str +2 crushing on the pris and 11 str 9 agi from the cedar.  10 sta 9 agi and 36 str.... not too much different from the prismatic 2 hander, but i have the option to upgrade my offhand at any time, which is something you cant do with the 2hander.  Sooner or later the prismatic will move to my off hand and i will still have the mana regen effect while yours will sit in a bag and do you no good.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My riposte might be more, but its barley noticible on exp mobs, my GF has been my healer since lvl 25 and she has had no problems being the solo healer well after we have both been 50.  As is right now i dont see too much difference when i put a 2HS on vs my DW batons for riposte damage even when we are fighting lvl 58s.  Me personally, i like the look and the ability to upgrade while still gaining the mana regen from the priz.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=237191110" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=237191110</A></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Schmalex23 on <SPAN class=date_text>08-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:50 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Schmalex23 on <span class=date_text>08-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:56 AM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> mcconje wrote:<BR><BR>Could you post a link to the post -aonein-? <BR><BR>I have personally looked at alot of logs and when using you fast DWers you will see 2 attacks within the same second. Considering there is no double attack in EQ2 the only way to explain this is that the weapon had to have a delay of less then a second. The log is only accurate to the second and can not display milliseconds which continues the myth that the lowest delay is one second.<BR><BR>50 Zerker PF<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Still looking for the post, ill pop it up when i find it.</P> <P>I use 2 imbued cedar batons, both 1.5 seconds each and because there both the same delay timers it easy to see 2 hits at once, well it looks as if is at once but its milliseconds apart. Now if for example you had a 1.5 second and a 1.2 second wep or a 1.8 second wep and a 1.2 second wep you will notice that all your attacks are spread much more apart, you dont even need a parser to show you that, you can see it, but there will be times when the roll of the dice lands on having both weps hit at the same time, it doesnt mean that the wep speed is matched, just means one wep has caught up to the other.</P> <P>Weps with same delay timers are going to land closer to each other all the time, reguardless of haste, even if one is a miss and one is a hit, it still doesnt change nothing, the delays just reset and start all over again, i see a constant string of double hits all the time, if i switch out to say for example my PGT + imbued cedar i start to see a gap, 66 damage pops up from the cedar, then the PGT follows with 39 dmg and so on, they follow each other till they catch up then the gap rears its head again. With the 2 imbued cedars i get 66 / 69 instantly all the time, combat round after combat round, because there wep delays are the same.</P> <DIV>Try it for yaself, get a 2 second DW wep and a 1.2 second DW wep, test it out for yourself, you will clearly see a string of 30 dmg from the 1.2 second wep, you might get 3 hits in with that before the 2 second one hits, then all of a sudden you will see a 80 dmg hit, then a string of 30's again and so on, then you will see two hits that look to hit at the exact same time, then the gap will grow again.</DIV>

[mccon]

1 - Unequip one of the DWers 2 - Haste up 3 - Turn Log on 4 - Attack something for more then a min 5 - check your log You will see yourself with one weapon hitting the target twice in the same second. There is no 1.0 sec delay cap that was a myth born of EQ1 and given life in eq2 by the fact that the log does not record down to the milisecond. 50 Zerker PF

[Goreth]

<div></div>Well if you spam CAs with the current system 2H is by FAR the best way to go, this is true b/c you hit for harder in between each CA you set off.  I have a ton of fabled weps and crap but the only one i really use is my RGF, I only throw DW weps on if I don't want any chance of grabbing aggro off the MT.   I'm planning on sticking to 2h with expansion, which sucks b/c i got my Prizmatic as a DW crush <span>:smileysad:</span> Just for fun I got parsed at 365 and 358DPS on two seperate raids last night <span>:smileyhappy:</span> I <3 RGF + Underworld Legplates Gorethok Jigglebelly 50 Berserker of Crushbone Leader of Elysium <div></div><p>Message Edited by Gorethok on <span class=date_text>08-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:55 AM</span>

[Strahm_Grymbla]

Intercept, does that affect Fury's riposte? I have been working riposte in Harclave and finding that 2h is by far more effective than DW. But the question is, when not taking does the 2h still pull the advantage. If Intercept will affect riposte when buffing the MT then i can see 2h still being the advantage. But if it doesnt, i would have to say imbued DW might take the cake. As far as speed is concerned, your going to get more procs from your DW. This is more theory craft than anything, i do not have any parse's from imbued DW vs 2h, too broke. <div></div>