Why does'nt Sony just ask?

[Eukat]

<DIV>Endless bickering about whether berserkers should be a DPS class or a defencive class, its gone on since beta i don't see it ever ending. Why doesn't Sony just toss up a poll and ask us; then make decisions accordingly. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Better yet  scrap the level cap extension and devise an AA system in a mutually exclusive tree format that will allow us to decide what class we will play rather than tell us what we will play (if I the player chooses to be an offencive coercer they could choose the offencive spell skill tree which would lock the advanced buffs trees, etc). I really dislike being told what I will do in life and would like to escape it in my chosen recreation. who is the customer here anyway?</DIV>

[Em]

<DIV>To be honest I thought I was going to quit when the revamp hit live, but after seeing some screenshots from a lvl 50 and his input, I have a lot more hope now. It sounds like they have found a good median. A poll would still be good though, always a good idea to get the opinion of the paying customer before changing the product they bought I would think.</DIV>

[TheFat]

<P>From what I've seen, SOE generally counts on feedback from the beta testers and the people who play on the test server to tailor how classes will change. Sure they seem to grab an idea here and there from the forums but generally those seem to be the 2 groups that have the most impact. We have to remember that a relatively small percentage of the player base is actually represented on the official forums therefore any polls conducted here may not represent what the majority of paying customer feel. Of course the same can be said of the testers since they represent an even smaller portion.</P> <P>The problem with polls regarding class development is this: imagine they conducted an in-game poll for all players who had a berserker toon (much like the in-game survey they conducted for station exchange) A simple click here if you want to be dps, click here if you want to be a tank. Without explaining what those changes would entail or how they would be made you would still have people furious over whatever updates came down the pipe. To make an informed decision would take a much longer discourse with the individual than could be had in a poll.</P> <P> In short, I guess I'm saying the testers effectively act as representatives of the wider player base for good or ill and help to shape the future of our classes. Though when enough people scream they tend to listen, thought not always with the speed or desired effect that we want. They upped the re-entry time on Harclave and a bunch of players began forthing at the mouth and screaming lawsuits, going to WoW, bait and switch, and all that jazz. A couple days later they dropped the re-entry time back down. It just takes enough people to get mad. If 20 players out of 200,000 hate the changes to a class, they could care less. If 2,000 out of 200,000 hate it, then they *might* start to listen. </P>

[Sambora]

<P>It's funny that the previous post suggests a possible poll from SOE.  I don't know if any of you recall, but they took a poll several months ago in regards to the SOE exchange.  Less than 40% of the people that took the poll agreed with the Exchange.</P> <P>Well once SOE put their sill [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] spin on it, you would have thought that everyone agreed that the Exchange was a great idea and that we all thought it would be a great idea for SOE to get a 10% cut in on the action.</P> <P>/blowit SOE</P> <P>I can't wait for Vanguard!!</P>

[demolition tank]

Why don't they implament in-game poles? Just have something that pops up when you log in, they can judge weather or not the pole is relevant to you by class / level and then ask you if you would like to fill it out or not. <div></div>

[Khal]

I picked berserker to be a tank.  I read their description thinking it would be a warrior type tank with a bit of offensive flair. 

[Stromul]

My favorite version of a berserker was the AC2 one.  I know that game was totally broken but man was it fun to get all those flurry spells off! <div></div>

[Causti]

<DIV>"I picked berserker to be a tank.  I read their description thinking it would be a warrior type tank with a bit of offensive flair. "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alot of people seemed to pick berserker to do damage. I read their description thinking it would be a warrior type damage dealer with a defensive flair. Go figure.</DIV>

[Daun]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Caustick wrote: <DIV>Alot of people seemed to pick berserker to do damage. I read their description thinking it would be a warrior type damage dealer with a defensive flair. Go figure.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Same here I thought I'd be playing a high damage character with a few defensive abillities, not the other way around.<BR>

[Khal]

They are warriors in plate.  I did not expect to outdamage monks in light, scouts in chain and mages in very light. 

[Causti]

<P>"They are warriors in plate.  I did not expect to outdamage monks in light, scouts in chain and mages in very light. "</P> <P> </P> <P>Neither did I, and I don't want to.  So increase monk, scout, and mage DPS. I don't like that I will be hitting just as hard as a Guardian, seeing as how they are the defensive ones. I wouldn't mind if they tweaked our dps and lowered it a tad, so we weren't so high.  But they cut it in half, if not more - that's pretty ridiculous.</P>

[cacabutt]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Khalad wrote:<BR>They are warriors in plate.  I did not expect to outdamage monks in light, scouts in chain and mages in very light.  <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That is of course a matter of opinion, some people hold a conflicting opinion and thus the point, wouldn't it serve Sony and the game in general to know how many people agree and disagree?<p>Message Edited by cacabutt on <span class=date_text>08-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:37 AM</span>

[ThePhoni]

<P>Its a good idead to "just poll" your subscriber base.  I mean its fast accurate and makes your fans think that your listening to them.  Which of course is why they don't want to do it.  Because then they would have to actually DO what their subscribers tell them to.   I mean, its not even hard to make polls.  I mean just use a rank system instead of yes or no questions and you will do great.  Do most people even want perfectly balanced classes that "can tank equally"?  Or would a pally be willing to trade some of his tanking for healing, would a bruiser be willing to trade some tanking ability to dish out more DPS?    OR do people really want to tank everything perfectly equally?  ... well if your not sure about the answer.  Do a poll?  nah too far fetched<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   Would a poll asking should we up the damage of XXX combat art be useful--- probably not.  But one asking about the philosophy of a class, about what it is at the core?  Seems like the perfect place to start to me.</P> <P> </P> <P>one peons opininon "ready to work!"</P>

[tbotus]

Can I just ask one simple question? Why in the name of all things holy would you pick the evil archetype equal of a Guardian, which is CLEARLY under the same class branch... and assume you're DPS and not Defense? I have yet to see where anyone complaining that they're not DPS anymore has any reason to complain. You're a fighter. Cut and dry. Always have been a fighter... the DPS scout thing was just temporary. If you miss your DPS, play an assassin. That's what you should have been all along. --Alonden  46 inquisitor, Crushbone <div></div>

[electron]

<span><blockquote><hr>Daunte wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Caustick wrote: <div>Alot of people seemed to pick berserker to do damage. I read their description thinking it would be a warrior type damage dealer with a defensive flair. Go figure.</div> <hr> </blockquote>Same here I thought I'd be playing a high damage character with a few defensive abillities, not the other way around. <div></div><hr></blockquote>OK I'm confused, at what point did you think warrior would give you good DPS? Khalad is right, experienced zerkers know we're tanks not DPS, if you ask me the best tanks. Any fool that goes "Warrior" for DPS is being mislead, better DPS than a guardian? That don't mean jack. Are we still argueing about this?! Christ people, you think scouts are gonna go predator and then become a tank class at level 20? How the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] would a fighter go warrior and then DPS at level 20...?!</span><div></div>

[Causti]

<P>Hey electron, and everyone else who has the same automated response - NOT EVERYONE PLAYED EVERQUEST I! Prior to this game, every other game I played EVER where my character ran around with heavy armor and a huge sword - DID DAMAGE! Prior this game, I myself, and apparently every other game designer on the planet, thought warriors killed the hell out of things with two handed swords. At level TWENTY I barely knew what a tank was. So do not feed me this bull[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] that I knew better, because I didn't!! This is how I preceived based on every other medieval role playing game I've ever played ever - Scouts were the sneaky guys who ran around hiding and stealthing and picking locks and stealing things. They could slit throats in the night, but they couldn't sit there and wail on a monster for more damage than the guy with the sword bigger than them. Priests are your healers - obviously. You can't really say much more about them, they keep you alive, you need them, end of story. Mages are your BIG damage dealers, but can't take a hit worth [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], unless of course they are focusing their spells at protecting themselves, not damage. But when they cast a spell, they generally killed whatever your fighting in two hits. Fighters are the guys that do just that - they fight. They wanna run around punching everything in the face as hard as they can until it's dead. They had the most HP - so yes, they were "tanks" but were not little [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]es when it came to dishing out the pain either.</P> <P>Now, with that in mind, I picked BERSERKER on the basis that I would be leaning more towards the dishing out the pain side, while the Guardian was more the hp tank kinda guy. I think SONY had this in mind too, based on well - the way we are right now. Unfortunately, enough people did EXACTLY what I am doing right now - [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing and moaning - and they got their way, Berserkers are just tanks now, we are not unique in any way. I had no idea Warriors were tanks, don't tell me what I did or did not know.</P>

[stelle]

Now, with that in mind, I picked BERSERKER on the basis that I would be leaning more towards the dishing out the pain side, while the Guardian was more the hp tank kinda guy. --------------------------------------------------------- with combat changes this is EXACTLY100%  how it will be set up from what i see <div></div>

[Sambora]

<DIV>I have yet to see where anyone complaining that they're not DPS anymore has any reason to complain. You're a fighter. Cut and dry. Always have been a fighter... the DPS scout thing was just temporary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Um, I hardly think 9 months is frigggggin' "temporary" </DIV>

[stelle]

temporary is all based on perception, if you only plan on playing game for 1 year then 9 months may seem like a long time if you play for 2-5 years, 9 months is temporary <div></div>

[Jvaloth]

<DIV>How many times do we gotta rehash this?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When we picked a character the class description said:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Beserkers are chaotic warriors who inflict HEAVY damage with all manner of weapons. Their furious attacks overwhelm their opponents, to whom they show no mercy."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Doesn't get more clear than that.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then after playing the character from 1 to 50 this description seemed to fit the class to a tee..  Now they've decided to completely revamp the class and make Beserkers  Health Regenerating Guardians?  We are AE Healers for our groups?  Removed our group hp and haste buffs?     Sounds to me like our nitch is going to be in group 3-4 keeping the scouts/mages up vs AE mobs.   w000 aint that super.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the biggest problem they did is when they scrapped the differences between Vanguard and Plate.    If they had kept this and restricted Beserkers to Plate instead of Vanguard, it would have justified a little less mitigation for a little more damage.    I think zerkers should not have been able to use shields bigger than say Buckler/Kite shield either to disscourage shield useage and keep the focus on offense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They also screwed predators from the beginning by removing their agility based defensive capabilities and by not including any frontal attacks.   I play a 50 zerker and a 50 assassin and there is no zerker in this game that can out dps my assassin if he is doing his job and keeping agro (and the mobs back to me).   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This revamp of the beserker class was an absolute knee jerk reaction based on a minority of whiney players who may have had some legitimate concerns for their own classes ineffectiveness, but chose to single out and villify the Beserker class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A shame.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[Sambora]

<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV>Jvaloth, that was very well said.  Kudos!!</DIV> <DIV>Hopefully Vanguard won't be making class revamps 9 months after it's release.  I would like to think that Brad will put out  a complete game and not listen to all those whinny little bishes out there who don't know how to play their toons.</DIV> <DIV>/blowit SOE</DIV>

[Eukat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jvaloth wrote:<BR> <DIV>How many times do we gotta rehash this?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When we picked a character the class description said:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Beserkers are chaotic warriors who inflict HEAVY damage with all manner of weapons. Their furious attacks overwhelm their opponents, to whom they show no mercy."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Doesn't get more clear than that.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then after playing the character from 1 to 50 this description seemed to fit the class to a tee..  Now they've decided to completely revamp the class and make Beserkers  Health Regenerating Guardians?  We are AE Healers for our groups?  Removed our group hp and haste buffs?     Sounds to me like our nitch is going to be in group 3-4 keeping the scouts/mages up vs AE mobs.   w000 aint that super.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think the biggest problem they did is when they scrapped the differences between Vanguard and Plate.    If they had kept this and restricted Beserkers to Plate instead of Vanguard, it would have justified a little less mitigation for a little more damage.    I think zerkers should not have been able to use shields bigger than say Buckler/Kite shield either to disscourage shield useage and keep the focus on offense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They also screwed predators from the beginning by removing their agility based defensive capabilities and by not including any frontal attacks.   I play a 50 zerker and a 50 assassin and there is no zerker in this game that can out dps my assassin if he is doing his job and keeping agro (and the mobs back to me).   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This revamp of the beserker class was an absolute knee jerk reaction based on a minority of whiney players who may have had some legitimate concerns for their own classes ineffectiveness, but chose to single out and villify the Beserker class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A shame.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>While many may agree with your valid points the purpose of my post was to try and get Sony to respond to what the community of players wants not to rehash the argument; and it is difficult to know what the majority feels based on the current squeeky wheel enviorment. I would loved it if one day I logged on and was asked to respond to a variety of questions about class balance touching on each class and the future of classes and the game in general. Becuse I don't post often, as I'm certain most players don't post often, I feel that my opinion and that of many others are being overlooked in an effort to apease those that have strong opinions and state them loudly and often.

[PowertothePeople]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> tbotus wrote:<BR>Can I just ask one simple question?<BR><BR>Why in the name of all things holy would you pick the evil archetype equal of a Guardian, which is CLEARLY under the same class branch... and assume you're DPS and not Defense?<BR><BR>I have yet to see where anyone complaining that they're not DPS anymore has any reason to complain. You're a fighter. Cut and dry. Always have been a fighter... the DPS scout thing was just temporary.<BR><BR>If you miss your DPS, play an assassin. That's what you should have been all along.<BR><BR>--Alonden  <BR>46 inquisitor, Crushbone<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Last time I played, you could pick Guardian or Berserker if you were from Freeport or Qeynos. We arent like Rangers or Assisans, or Monks and Brusiers that can only be from one city. So we really arent EVIL archeytpe we are just from the same Warrior subclass. I really dont understand why people cant think OUTSIDE of the box on this. Why must berserkers be tank just becasue we came from the warrior subclass? Why cant Warriors do damage? I really dont understand why we have to be STEROTYPED.</P> <P>Heres a suggestion to all those that went Berserker that wanted to be a tank, GO PLAY A GUARDIAN. I just said that because I hate when people say things like, "you want DPS go play a scout". </P>

[ThePhoni]

<DIV>I just wanted to say, I have YET to have anyone tell me that big fighter guys with huge swords and axes should not realistically be able to deal *alot*  (which is of course a perspective thing) of damage.  I have already suggested that all SOE really needs to do is bump us up to bruiser lvl damage potential for everyone to be happy and the game to be balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As to the arguement about what a zerker was in history, or any other game before this.  Whatever anyone's sterotype of bezerkers was, DOES NOT matter to this game.  SOE is perfectly able to make bezerkers into anything they want.  All i am saying is that, these combat changes make the bezerker much different than what THEY orginally said it would be.  That is the problem, SOE released the game saying that zerkers "were chaotic warriors.. ect ect".  Saying that we were offensive warriors.  Then ingame for the past 10 monthes we have BEEN offensive warriors.  So SOE's OFFICIAL statements made when we chose our class AND the ingame experience met with my expectations.  Now that they are changing the very philosophy of the bezerker to a second rate guardian clone.  *yes i have only gotten to the mid 20's on test, so i can not say how raiding will be* But it is different, I don't do as much damage, but i can tank marginally better.  It also does not feel like a bezerker, I have to taunt and buff more incombat to keep aggro instead of doing combat arts. And solo, well mobs named heroic now do take heroic gear, spells/arts, and skill to do.  *which is not bad, being able to solo a heroic mob now means something... which now even fewer classes will be able to do... which will of course lead to another round of nerfs.. yah nerfs:smileysad:*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway this orginally was a post about how much sense it would make for SOE to ask INGAME all the bezerkers what they thought.  Its still a good idea, to "you know" get feedback from your entire player base, so "you know" they are happy.  I mean if a restaurant changes from hamburgers to veggy burgers, I don't go there anymore.  I don't want SOE to server us veggyburgers.  Now, is the time to complain about the changes we don't like and explain to SOE what their changes mean to us.  Because they can still change them.  All i want to do is make this game better and fun to play, because i like playing it currently.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>T-minus 30 days until the nerfbat hits</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and thanks for the new sig:smileywink: power</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Turb]

So zerker CA damage is cut 50%?I did an analysis of bruiser CA damage from test skill inspection, and bruiser CA damage is also down, at least 50%.Power consumption is also down for those CAs, so while the damage/power ratio may be similar, the dps is really severely screwed.I think bruisers and zerkers share a lot in common in issues in the revamp.A split skill tree, or even some 'stance' skills that effectively let you pick which flavour you wanted, would seem to be one way to tackle this mess.

[infernus006]

<div></div>Personally I'm sick of people saying that we shouldn't be able to use tower shields or any shields even.  If you don't want to use one then don't.  Quit trying to say that as zerkers we shouldn't have the ability to use one at all.  That's just silly, imo.  A warrior that can't use a sheild?  Come on.  One of the best things about our class is the diveristy, that we can choose whether we want to go for more dps or more defense any time we want (provided you have the proper gear) and still do both jobs (that of tanking and dps) quite well.  I have always tanked a lot with my zerker and I almost always use a sheild for that, so I can do my job better as a tank when I'm called upon to fulfill that role.  And IMO that is our main job, to be a tank not a dps.  But that's just me.  As I see it we're just more offensive versions of a guardian, which suites me just fine.  If you want to be more offensive though then by all means drop the sheild and go with a 2h or dw set and be a chainsaw.  Better yet, don't even have a shield on you, don't even carry one with you if you loath them that much.  It's your choice, be glad you have it.  Don't tell me to go play a guard if I wanna tank because I don't have to, I can tank just fine if not better than your average guard with the setup I use now which includes a sheild and I'm happy with that because that way I only have slightly lessened defense compared to a guard but feel that I make up for it with the my extra dps which not only helps me hold aggro better but to kill the mobs faster too, even with just a decent 1h.  Enjoy the diversity of our class and quit trying to relegate it into one set thing so that everyone has to play thier char the same way you do.  I don't think anyone really wants that to be honest. <div></div><p>Message Edited by infernus006 on <span class=date_text>08-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:54 PM</span>

[Eukat]

I wonder if I posted, as a new topic "Moose or goats, which is the supreme being, discuss" as a thread if it would end up a berserker should be tank or DPS debate thread, I'm guessing it would.

[Dashel]

<span><blockquote><hr>Eukatae wrote:<div></div>I wonder if I posted, as a new topic "Moose or goats, which is the supreme being, discuss" as a thread if it would end up a berserker should be tank or DPS debate thread, I'm guessing it would.<hr></blockquote>No because clearly the Moose is the greater being and could whoop a goats [Removed for Content].  And Zerkers are tanks!  Warrior!  Plate!  High defense/AC/HP!  Taunts!  Shields!  Melee!  TANK!  AHHH.... sorry <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span><div></div>