Perspective on Combat Changes (Opinionated)

[Selo]

<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=3>Greetings fellow berserkers,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=3>I guess since some of us have already deleted your zerkers/began playing WoW, I guess I will speak to those who are still among us. As i sit here and read these boards from time to time, I find it very hard to believe that everyone thinks that we're getting the nerf bat and we're gonna become crap dps and even worst tanks. Com'on people lets stop and think for a minute before we jump to hard assumptions like that and see what we have working or in the workings. From what I have been seeing is that there are the opinions of the casual zerker and of course the raid zerkers. Who benefits from the combat changes? Both. Who loses in the combat changes? Both. Seems fair right? We gain a lil but we lose a lil. So lets take a look at what we can do...and what we will be doing: (*Note* This is from what I have read from other people's post of experience in the combat changes as a berserker and not from what I seen, opinion)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=3>*Before Combat Changes*</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Tank fairly well. May not be as 100% sturdy as a guardian but believe me a berserker can get the job done if he knows what he or she is doing. This applies to being in a small group doing normal mobs up to heavy raiding tanking mobs in Spirit of the Lost. We are WARRIORS ladies and gentlemen, thus means we can take a hit. Although we didn't get the good tank buffs as guardians did, we still were never overlooked as a tanking class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-DPS output. Extremely well dps output for a heavy armored class. We have the haste and str buffs so yes we can do dps at will on any given day. A good zerker can outdps some classes with just autoattack on a good day. This applies to being in a small group or raid group. DPS is our middle name and don't you forget it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Buff Abilities. We get a good array of HP, STR, Haste, Skills, and Defensive buffs. Right now with all buffs Adept 3 at lvl 50. We are able to buff 1150 HP, Increase STR by 43, Increase offensive skills by 11, Haste the group by 60%, Increase mitigation vs physical attacks by 258, add a near 500 dmg proc, and Increase Defense by 15. We have a good line up of buffs, may not be the best for tanking but for a dps group you are the center unit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Overall. We are almost the most balanced class in the game. We can tank [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] good and we can dish out boatloads of dps. Could you ask for anything better? We recieve hits as well as give them in return. Who wouldn't want to be a berserker?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*With Combat Changes*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Tank VERY well. The DEVs finally wanted to be fair with us and give us actual TANK buffs that increase our mitigation, defense, and resistance all in one go. We are now considered as 97.99% tanks. It's time to pick up a shield, put up some STA, and start hitting mobs in the face and not from behind. As stated above, we are WARRIORS, not scouts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-DPS output. This will vary from zerker to zerker. Now if you're that zerker that's given up hope and crying at your keyboard that all our dps is sucked from us, think again. SOE did not remove the fact that we are berserkers but they still have to respect the fact that we are indeed warriors. Both worlds can't be satisfied to the fullest so we have to lose a little bit of auto-attack dps. Is it the end of the world? No of course not. Now if you grab yourself a couple of good fabled weapons and boost those CAs up to Adept 3 - Master, you will begin to see that the dps IS there. DPS isn't handed to us now, we have to earn it by upgrading a little bit. The new stances that we get for offense will also help this cause. Now you may have to buff up to do dps but Im sure we wouldn't mind that. You still out dps a guardian, be happy :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Buff Ability. To some degree it's a bit yes and no. Our HP buffs are in exchanged for HP Regens. We lose our hastes, but gain procs. This may seem a bit odd at first but it will have it's pluses in the end. So we can't buff our hp, ok that means you all who went ALL STR (SHAME ON YOU), need to pour some of that into the STA pool so you can have a decent set of hp. Now think, what makes you last longer? higher hp? or healing? Maybe both but we get 2 HP Regens, seems nice but I know some will miss that 7k self buff hp, I know I will... Our haste deduction, well I can't put my finger on it but I guess it'll give a reason for an enchanter to haste buff us lol. Our buffs IMO got a bit gimped up but Im sure we'll see a little bit of change before it goes live.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Overall. What I can say is that we got slid a little bit from the middle class that could do it all more towards the tank side. I know you zerkers who wanted to be the naked man running around with axes are disappointed that you won't be the dps king anymore. I'm sorry to say but you are going to have to get over it as now you have more responsibilites ahead of you. Time to pick up a shield and sword and start taking a little bit more heat. Are we getting nerfed a bit? Yes a bit. To a degree where we should change classes? Goodness no. We are just being put in more of a Warrior position then a scout position. But always keep in mind that just because you are considered a tank, doesn't mean that you can't dps. Sure you won't be in the top 5 dps when parsing a raid. Does that mean you didn't do any at all? Of course not. As long as you did your job then you're ok. With these changes, we are rendered as even more situational than before. With us being used more as tanks, it will generate more small groups since people will have more trust in zerkers as tanks. And what about raids? Lets put it like this, if you're offtanking now or main tanking, congratulations, your jobs has just gotten easier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for reading</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raive Velshira</DIV> <DIV>Equinox</DIV> <DIV>Innothule Server</DIV>

[Dak-D]

 From what I have read I see this as getting nerfed, gimped and dumbed down.  Before the changes I saw roles in every plate wearing fighter class, Guards where the defensive tanks, Zerks altho good at exp groups and 3+mob encounters where outtanked by the guardians in "boss" mob situations and had the DPS option. Crusader classes provided Utilities, DPS and Heals.     Now, we are not the "best" tanks and have nothing to make up for that fact to offer a group/raid that has a tank already. Your best hope is to slide into a pickup group/raid looking for a tank and with the gazillion other tank classes being played out there, good luck finding it. We have no utilities or spells to offer and now no DPS. The offensive stance from what I have seen is a joke ... it procs an AOE, the spell discription does not say on target encounter, So you can hang up using it in hairy situations or on raids, you will be aggroing adds left and right and breaking mezzes.   There is alot more problems I see, that is in this combat revamp related to the Berserker class but its pretty much pointless to point out everything.  It is what it is and thats the way it will be. However, I dont see this as a great help to the berserker class at all. <div></div>

[Rhayv]

<span>There is not a lot of information out there about berserker or Gaurdians after revamp.  I dont think they are 100% through with the tank classes.   But I hope after all the revamps there is a difference between guardians and berserkers.    Both classes are warriors but I picked Berseker from the start because I wanted an offensive tank instead of a defensive one.    So why are they trying to make our class more in line with  gaurdians.    I was always happy with my tanking abilities and my role on raids.   This combat revamp feels more like a class  redefining for me.  Buffs. I think taking away our haste is very very very bad.  It was one of our class defining roles.   One of the things  I am very curious to know  whether our new buffs are group based or self only.  I f self only I think we are going to be in a world of hurt. What good is hp regen if its self only and out of combat?  Anyway that is just some of my concerns.  I hope everything turns out good for us in the end.  </span><div></div>

[Svan]

it's a strange time when people think getting a tanking boost on a tanking class is a nerf

[DasanW]

<span><blockquote><hr>Svanny wrote:<div></div>it's a strange time when people think getting a tanking boost on a tanking class is a nerf <div></div><hr></blockquote> Gaining Incombat HP Regen and snare is getting a tanking boost?  Class defining offensive stance being a non-encounter, AOE, dd is going to help us tank better?  Having to re-learn how to play a toon that we have spent the past 8 months in game (plus 2 more in so called beta) tuning to play how SoE orginally created is tanking better?  I guess some of us have a different perspective on this...  /shrug </span><div></div>

[Svan]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> DasanW wrote: <P><SPAN>Gaining Incombat HP Regen and snare is getting a tanking boost?</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>actually, i was talking about all the extra mitigation that was tacked onto our defensive stance.<BR>

[Dak-D]

<div></div> I as a Berserker never had an issue when I wanted to tank, as a matter of fact I have tanked through 50 levels of content for my guild after trying a Necro, Shadowknight and a Gaurdian. What I dont like is after almost a year and grinding to 50 I am now being forced to be a Guardian type of character. I have never out DPSed other DPS classes who knew thier business and played thier class well unless it was in a multiple encounter scenario. Now every CA I own is being changed and the core mechanics of the class I play is being changed. Going from an offensive tank to a medicore defensive tank is not at all making me happy. Glad your likeing it though Svanny,  now you can be just like the other thousands of defensive tanks out there ....<a href="../view_profile?user.id=84538" target="top"><span></span></a><div></div>

[ThePhoni]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Svanny wrote:<BR> it's a strange time when people think getting a tanking boost on a tanking class is a nerf <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Its a nerf when you look for a damage dealing fighter class to play, when you want something OFFENSIVE not defensive, when you want to be a Conan type warrior.  But are instead now relgated to second class meatshields behind guardians.  Yes this revamp lets us tank better, which is nice.. but it also nerfed our DPS so that we are no longer stand out.  We are much more inline with guardians now.  But they are BETTER tanks.  Instead of having a purpose behind every subclass, and something that makes each special.  SOE made a blanket statement of all fighters are tanks in every case and situation.  So they took any DPS role we might have had and put all our strength into tanking, well now we are little guardian clones who don't tank as well as them.  And all anyone wants to say is either wait and see or I want to be a better tank.  Its just very frustrating to see your class ripped apart.</P> <P>We ask for haste, we ask for HP's, we ask to be able to strike back when we are hit.  What we got... random heal regen?  HUH what kind of warrior gets a health regen?  Not only is it out of flavor with what our class should be doing, it makes no sense.  I mean where do they come up with these "fixes".  I mean if my warrior can have a health regen.. why not my sorcer, it makes just as much sense.</P> <P>/rant off</P> <P> </P>

[Ethelwo]

<DIV>It's really all about choice. I am sure that Berserkers will be better at tanking and worse at dps after the combat changes go into effect on live servers. That in and of itself doesn't mean squat if thats not why we chose the class in the first place. We all had the option to become Guardians instead of Berserkers and we chose Berserker. It's about SOE throwing our choice out the window and forcing their choice upon us. This effects alot more classes then just Ours. SOE is taking choices away from many other classes too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It depends on how you see the relationship between yourself and SOE. I happen to see it as a Bussiness/Client relationship. When the bussiness engages in treacherous behavior towards their clients then they destroy the bond that exisits there. Many will try out their new character class and decide that this isnt what I wanted to be. They will be angry and find a new more trustworthy bussiness to give their money too. Other wil grumble and press on absent of any viable option but will leave when a viable option presents it'self.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sugestion: SOE should allow all players the option to change to a different subclass within the same archtype at L51. This will give most players the chance to try out the new version of their existing class at least and decide for themselves if they want to continue playing that class or switch to another. Both cities must be changed to allow for all subclass choices at L51. For instance a quest for a Paladin to become a Shadowknight/Guardian/ Berserker can be implemented for L51 characters. If you lose some master skills in the process so be it. At least you make the change before the next ten levels of skills. This same thing can apply to scouts, priests and casters as well. It will require some sacrafice from the players who choose to change but it at least gives the players a new choice after a change was forced upon them. If that option is implemented then maybe some players will stay that otherwise will depart rather then starting all over again with a new class.</DIV>

[Akagi]

<DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Akagi on <span class=date_text>08-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:01 PM</span>

[Espyderman]

<P>all i got to say to people complaining about the changes is</P> <P>WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA</P> <P>Call WHA11 and ask for a</P> <P>WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMBULANCE</P>

[Dak-D]

<div></div>The guy above me apparently plays a scout class and picks his nose alot <div></div><p>Message Edited by Dak-Dod on <span class=date_text>08-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:12 PM</span>

[Khal]

<DIV>Sony looks at classes by their subclass before their final class I think.  The have always looked upon us as warriors with some added offense, with the guardians warriors with some added defense.  In  their minds the classes should be more simular then differant imo.  I mean it def wasnt right before when berserkers did top dps and were the second best tank, as fun as it was.  When this game came out I was under the impression that berserkers were not top dps, but were tanks who could do some dps.  I never pictured them out dpsing scouts and mages.  So I guess we could blame sony for getting it wrong at the start, but they had to make some changes.  Hopefully they will be somewhat balenced when this is all over. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Khalad on <span class=date_text>08-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:17 PM</span>

[Tanit]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Ethelwolf wrote:<div>It's really all about choice. I am sure that Berserkers will be better at tanking and worse at dps after the combat changes go into effect on live servers. That in and of itself doesn't mean squat if thats not why we chose the class in the first place. <font color="#ffff99">We all had the option to become Guardians instead of Berserkers and we chose Berserker.</font> It's about SOE throwing our choice out the window and forcing their choice upon us. This effects alot more classes then just Ours. SOE is taking choices away from many other classes too.</div> <hr></blockquote>You had the option to pick a scout, but you picked a fighter. A fighter is a tank, which makes a berserker a tank. A berserker is merely an offensive oriented warrior, bit like a bruiser, but this still makes him a tank. If you wanted to do tons of dps you picked the wrong class and you can only blame yourself for that, not soe.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Tanith_ on <span class=date_text>08-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:44 AM</span>

[Dak-D]

 I have pretty good gear and sure do know how to play my class and I have never ever out dpsed a dps class even when trying. I have played with brigands that could out dps me and take aggro almost at will no matter what I did, altho in a multiple encounters I could beat them except wizards ... wizards could put my dps to shame in multiple encounters. Of course maybe these guys knew how to actually play thier class and it showed /shrug <div></div>

[Khal]

<P>In raids I was always among the top DPS, usually top 3,  often first.  The people who were up there with me were monks and bruisers.  Only in rare fights with many adds would a Warlock be first.  Wizards were very rarely among the top nor were scouts.  I have decent gear.</P> <P>now that is raids, group fights will be differant of course</P>

[Dak-D]

<div></div>I was refering to groups, yes ... I have leveled to 50 as MT , in gear that I could afford/find and weapons I could afford/find. I never have and never will buy plat (which is really supporting botters/farmers and companies like IGE, but that is for another thread) So I have been your average player leveling thru content and buying what I could afford and upgrading what I could. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Dak-Dod on <span class=date_text>08-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:03 PM</span>

[Ethelwo]

<P>Tanith_  </P> <P>I do have a scout as well, two of them as a matter of fact one is a Troubador, one is a Ranger, I also have a Monk. You have completely missed the point of my post.  </P> <P>Why did SOE Make fighters, then add Crusaders, Warriors and Brawlers, then split again when all they really are is a "Tank". So in Your mind a good game would only have 4 classes tanks, dps, healers and buffers. Thats one hell of a third generation game when everyone is lumped into 4 pigionholed slots. Grow up man this game isnt progressing its regressing. Instead of great diversity it will have just 4 classes. Eqlive had more advanced thinking in its programming. SOE isnt moving forward they are moving to the rear.</P> <P>A true advanced game would be expanding diversity not shrinking it into little lumped groups.</P> <P>Yor a "Tank". We should all be narrowly defined into that one 4 letter word.</P> <P> </P>

[Styk]

Seems to me like alot of zerkers are thinking its the end of the world already, do you truly know what it means to have all cast timers on combat arts removed? You can reduce the damage numbers on our arts by 30% and in the long run it will be the same number? you know why? IT WONT AFFECT YOUR AUTO ATTACK like it would currently with cast times on our CA/s That is the tip of the bucket , boy yall will be mildly surprised when you see how the zerker plays after CC the new Key word for Berserker DPS = Counterattack, learn to love it <div></div>

[The Lost O]

<DIV>ALl i have to say is that I too have put many long hours into the choice of being a OFFENSIVE tank. I too disagree with the changes ive seen so far, BUT.... nothing has changed yet,.... they will... but untill then theres no point in in getting worked up on it till we actually have seen whats the deal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rancid.    Butcherblock</DIV>

[Ze]

I hope your right Styker! <div></div>

[cr0wangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> DasanW wrote: <P><SPAN>Having to re-learn how to play a toon that we have spent the past 8 months in game (plus 2 more in so called beta) tuning to play how SoE orginally created is tanking better? <BR></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Everyone will have to re-learn how to play, I expect the game to be screwed up for a month or so... (and not to mention the bugs that come will all updates and the bugs of the expansion). I am not sure what is coming for us, so I will say: play now while it's fun!</DIV>

[Nazo]

<P>If you want to keep your sanity throughout the next couple of months I strongly advise you to pretend that :</P> <P>You just bought a brand new game where you are given a level 50 char when you start playing :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>That is what I am gonna do as a level 50 Guardian...</P>

[Sambora]

<DIV>Looks like there will be no need for Zerkers in the MT group during raids anymore.  We have gone from being able to add 1100 HP's and 70% haste to HP regen!?!?!??!  OMG!!  Let's see Darathar consistently hits for 2-6K+.....oh ya, I can see where someone could care about a buff that regens, what is it, 54 per tick?!!?</DIV> <DIV>Nice job SOE</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fact that they are smashing a class after 9 [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] moths of live gameplay is a complete and utter joke!  I really hope that this pisses off people enough to leave this game.  That's the only way we can make these c---suckers care.</DIV>

[KittenClaw]

Sambora- Did you miss the fact that they took anchor away from guardians and gave it to us? What about the hitpoint buffs, and the mitigation buffs? Did you overlook Havoc? The list goes on... I really like most of the changes Berserkers will now be the main raid tanks vs crushing mobs, and more than likely on most raids Guardians will be guarding the berserkers. You ask who would allow us to be the main raid tank? Any one who knows how to raid, and wishes to have a successful raid will now have a berserker main tank and a guardian main assist, if the combat changes remain anything similer to what they show now. Who would allow a Paladin to main tank on a serious raid? Paladins cannot hold the taunt worth a hill of beans. Paladins are not meant to be raid tanks. They can tank in groups, but frankly why should they if there are other people who do it better and are available? It seems to me that people are looking for something to complain about, I mean the changes look great to me, for berserkers... If you ask me the only ones with any complaining rights are guardians who didn't read the discription of their class and went off of what other players said when they made their character. Of course, I am a level 45 kerra Berserker and I cannot really see what has been done to most of the spells I use. I have only been playing since around the beginning of May, so perhaps I am not as set in my ways as some who have been playing from the very beginning. I don't think that SOE is trying to mess up the game. I think they are trying to improve it, or at least make it better resemble the vision they had when making it. They have been working on this revamp practically since launch, it hasn't been a secret. The only thing I really don't like is the buff Tides of War changing from a speed increase to a strength buff. What use is more strength if we are tanking? Correct me if I am wrong please, but I believe that strength is going to effect how hard you hit and the amount of power you have. How does that improve our tanking abilities? To the person who stated that they would forfeit their plate armour for chain, allow me to say this: If I wanted to wear chain armour and be DPS I would have made an assassin, a ranger or even a monk/bruiser as they are a scout-fighters. I wanted to be a tank, so I made (and I quote the NPC that you spoke with to choose "warrior"at level 9) a meat shield, and I chose the path of the warrior. Why would they make a "meat shield" wear chain armour? That is not logical.  Think back to the day you chose which type of fighter you were going to be. When you chose the path of a "meat shield" you chose a warrior. If you read the description of your class when you picked it from the NPC at level 19 you will recall that it asked you two questions. 1.) Do you want to prevent your allies from taking damage? If you picked this one you became a Guardian. 2.) Do you want to be at the front of the fray receiving and dealing damage? If you picked this one you became a Berserker. It seems to me that they are just making our classes better fit the class description. I picked berserker from that description, not from what other players told me guardians and berserkers were. If you want to be DPS, play a scout. If you want to be a tank, well, I think you might have picked the correct class. <div></div>

[Sambora]

<P>Hey Kitten</P> <P>Here's an excellent idea for you.  Don't comment on raid content until you are at least level 49!  IDIOT!</P>

[Svan]

<P>Hey Sambora</P> <P>here's an excellent idea for you, dont comment at all.</P>

[Sambora]

<P>Hey Svanny</P> <P>Here's an idea for you...Sc-A-rew!</P> <DIV>My point is why listen to someone talk about in-game raid content who hasn't even been in an endgame raid yet?</DIV> <DIV>Don't get all pissssy like a 5 year old.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Sambora on <span class=date_text>08-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:33 AM</span>

[Tanit]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ethelwolf wrote: <p>Why did SOE Make fighters, then add Crusaders, Warriors and Brawlers, then split again when all they really are is a "Tank". <font color="#ffff66">So in Your mind a good game would only have 4 classes tanks, dps, healers and buffer</font>s. Thats one hell of a third generation game when everyone is lumped into 4 pigionholed slots. Grow up man this game isnt progressing its regressing. Instead of great diversity it will have just 4 classes. Eqlive had more advanced thinking in its programming. SOE isnt moving forward they are moving to the rear.</p> <p>A true advanced game would be expanding diversity not shrinking it into little lumped groups.</p> <p>Yor a "Tank". We should all be narrowly defined into that one 4 letter word.</p><hr></blockquote>What i think is a good game is irrelevant.This is soe's game and they define ALL fighters as tanks and have been saying this for a very long time.</span><div></div>