Misconceptions of Comparison

[Kaberu]

<DIV> <DIV>Alot of people love to compare us to Gaurdians. It seems logical we should have simliar tanking and DPS abilities because we are both Fighters and both Warriors right? Seems logical right? Well how about this for logic:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm going to be Berserker, my friend is going to be a Guardian. We both start the game and level at the same time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We both choose Fighter. We are identical for the first 9 levels. We can use any weapon, but <U>only wear light armor</U>. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At level 10, we choose Warrior. We are still identical all the way up to level 19. We can use any weapon, and we can <U>only wear light or medium armor</U>... ya, we're warriors but aside from taunts, we aren't really any better equipped than a scout.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At level 20, I become a Berserker and my friend becomes a Gaurdian. We can use any weapon, and we can wear heavy armor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For the next 30 levels I progress as a Berserker while my friend contiunes as a Gaurdian. Technically a total of 31 levels as our respective classes (20 is the first level, 21-30 is ten, 31-40 is ten, 41-50 is ten: 1+10+10+10 = 31).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For 62% of my training and experience, I was spending it SEPERATE from a Gaurdian. Our shared tanking/DPS abilities only lasted through level 19, after that we went our seperate ways. The Gaurdian focused on defense, the Berserker went crazy (literally) on offense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After 31 levels of SPECIALIZED and SEPERATE training, do you really expect two classes cut from the same stone to only be marginally better at their specializations? After 31 levels of SPECIALIZED and SEPERATE training, a Berserker is only <EM>slightly</EM> better at DPS and a Gaurdian is only <EM>slightly</EM> better at tanking? Sure we share some similar traits but not most of it!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe you see the final class as just bells and whistles or as icing on the cake? If that was suppose to be so then why did I pick my class at 20 and not at 40 or 50? picking my class at 40 would be icing on the cake, picking my class at 20 is a major deviation in a play style.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Furthermore, as far as mitigation goes, we aren't any better than scouts until we reach level 20. Our only added benefit are extra hitpoints. As far as shield use goes, are there even any kite or tower shields available before 20? I personally don't remember any and if not, extra hitpoints are the only saving grace to tanking over scouts. Aggro control (taunting) seems to be the primary reason we tank at pre-20 levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To boil down to the point... stating that we should be more akin to Gaurdians merely because we are both Fighters and Warriors is baseless and seems shortsighted to me. If we really need to be more similar, then you should be protesting to have Warrior as the final class and not have the split between Berserker and Gaurdian.</DIV></DIV>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>To me it seems logical, that the berserker would indeed have a higher damage than guaridan, but not suffer from loss of tanking (unless deliboratly forcing his defense down in exchange for my attack. IMO a berserker doesnt have to have more damaging combat abilties. It's the same case with the Fury/Warden debate (though it's not nearlt as badly contrived as the berserker/guard debate)</P> <P>One doesnt have to be "better" at damage or healing or tanking at the base level. They should be equill in healing or dealing damage, but their buffs and side effects on their damageing, tanking aiblities, and heals could be offensivly or defensivly oriented.</P> <P>Take this for example:</P> <P>Guardian and berseker would get an attack that deals 150 crushing damage, berserker's would also increase their attack potiental for 15 seconds, and guaridans would lower mobs attack potietial for 15 seconds. Guaridan's is called Subdueing Slam, and berserker's would be Enraged Smash. Guaridans would get a group hp buff, berserker would get group haste and +5-15% to CA damage for group. Berserker gets an AOE taunt that increases groups damage potiential even greater for short time, guaridan's AOE taunt decreases mobs damage output for a short time. One brings defensive atributes wher eoen brings offensive. where guaridan gets a Safeguard skill that has a 75-100% chance to intercept for the chosen allie, and when they intercept, they take the blow as if they had 75-100% of their current mitigation, with a 50-75% chance to increase their hate with the attacker. Berserkers should get a Furyguard that has a 60-90% chance to intercept for the allie, and take the hit as if they had 50-75% of their current mitigation, but the Berserker has a 60-90% chance to riposte the blow when they successfuly intercept.</P> <P>With fury/warden, give them same damage of nukes/dots, give Warden ice damage and fury Magic (lighting) damage. Warden's Cold Snap could be the same as it is, but lower mobs attack rate and CA damage by a small % for a set time, where a fury's Whirlwind (cant remeber it's exact name) dot would lower targets magical resists and lower their physical defenses. Fury's regeneration could increase the target's CA damageand appliey a high damage damage shield that only lasts for a short time, Warden's regeneration could apply a "tranquilizing spores" effect that lowers attacker's CA damage, with a chance to stun them (non epic) for 5 seconds when attacked. Fury gets offensive proc buffs where warden gets reactive buffs that activiate when attacked.</P> <P>Making differences like this makes classes simular enough to perform their class role well, but different enough to choos eone over the other in different situations.</P> <P>To me, a berserker or fury shouldnt beable to metamorph into a completely DPS roll, but they should beable to achieve a higher DPS for themselves and their group though their buffs. The sum of their parts should make them diferent, not the base of their Ca/spell's direct damage. Atleast thats how i see it.</P>

[Kaberu]

<DIV>Er, you might want to consult with Berserkers first next time... Nearly all of my attacks give me a chance to go Berserk which increases my damage potential, Berserkers also have an attack that lowers the mobs attack/defense (although only a little bit). We have group HP buffs, and we have group haste buffs (at least until they fix it). We also have an ability gives a group member an extra chance to avoid an attack (ie: riposte for them) but our only damage interception ability is Intervene, the one we earned back as a Warrior.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So think of the problem this way:</DIV> <DIV>We have hastes, berserk is a hastes as well... often we are maxed on haste without any help from haste items. Most of our group buffs increase my STR and attack skills (along with hitpoints, although the STR buffs are kind of minscule). I only have one real aggro taunt, one AOE aggro taunt and Promise of Violence which just lets me intercept aggro (but not build it, basically, if I am at the top of the aggro list already, it doesn't really do much. The problem being that it is technically easier to steal aggro from a Berserker but once lost, it is easier for a Berserker to take it back at least from a single target. Why then are are dubbed kings of aggro? Because Berserking generates aggro, but more importantly, our DPS was high enough to maintain it (notably against groups) without needing extra taunts like the Guardian). Aside from those abilities, Everything else is usually some form of attack (including the single target taunts I listed). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So despite all those offense oriented skills, I am now being put at a level only slightly more offensive than Gaurdians, who have all those defensive abilities and far more aggro building taunts than I do (Gaurdians have what, 4 single targets and 2 AoEs plus some secondary effect taunts?).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Eyes_of_Truth]

<P>I completely aggree that berserkers should have buffs/abilties that increase their damage and their groups damage. BUT, your base attack daamge should be thesame before your buffs and what not affect it. If guaridan has an attack that does 150 damage, berserker should get an attack that does 150 damage, BUT when you add in the berserker attack increase (i think it should momentarily increase your CA damage by 10-20%) + your haste + other abilties that increase damage, your attack might to closer to 180(150 x +20% increase) + more damage for your increase in weapon skills and haste. You still have the saem BASE damage (damage done before other things effect it) but with your sum of your parts you are definatly more offensive thana guardian andcan increase the groups offense. Maby they should make your group hp buff increase group's HP by same ammount as a guardians, but increase offensive slash/pierce/crushing while guaridans increases parry,defense, and deflection. And the opposit of your group haste, a guardian could get a enemy encounter slow. Guardian's skills could have a chance to increase their defensive abilties by 10-20% to counter your berserk ability.</P> <P>For every offensive benefit you recieve they coudl get an equally beneficial defensive benefit, but not toa  degree that they are best tank and you are just a dps class, but to a point that you have the option of increasing the base warrior offense by 20% and they have the option of increasing the base Warrior defense by 20%</P> <P>Now lets say that the base Brawler dps is basicaly 10% greater than the base Warrior DPS. so when in berserker mode with all your buffs going, you can do 10% more damage than the equivilant Brawler who has not focused on his offense. The Bruiser can push his offense 15% more than the base brawler offense, so at most a bruser and berserker going al out dps using same quality of equipment/skills would be the bruiser winning by only 5% differance. And the monk could go 15% more defensive than the base Brawler defense, which is equil to the base warrior defense. So a Guardian can effectively go 5% more defensive than a comparible Monk.</P> <P>Does that sound realy colse and balanced enough that one class can come out as more offensive but by only a very small margine? that way if one person put the extra effort into their defenseive or offensive skills, weapons, or armor, they could bridge that 5% gap.</P> <P>Well thats how i would like to see some of the tanks balanced as far as by comparison. And i hope they implement multiple tanking, where you divide any incoming direct damage ammong up to 6 fighters, then apply their mitigation and avoidance, and also Pool their aggro total into a Formation_of_fighters tha tthe mob registers on their hate list rather than the individual fighters. This allows for two tanks in a single group to provide a better net defense for the group, and 6 fighters ona  raid to provide a hige defensive benifit, rather than rely on their secondairy roles to "hopefully" find a spot as a second rate DPS person.</P> <P>"Be brave my fellow fighters, band together, and you can face any challenge that come your way! Dont hide like snivling scouts or finger-waggleing mages and attack the dragon's rump out of harms way! Stand face to face and challenge your foes head on like any honerable fighter would!" Doesnt that sound good lol? Sounds more realistic (and YES i know it's a fantasy game so let me rephrase) </P> <P>It's matches your fighter character's roleplay aspect rather than "Ok, guardian/Paladin will turn mobs back to us, and we all go screaming and kicking at it from behind, and you other fighters, no heroic stuff from you.. if some adds hapen to spawn go taunt them and run around or someting i dont know"</P> <P>Oh and BTW i do have a berserker friend, granted he's only level 26 though, but some of the stuff i mentioned you either dont have currently that i would like to see added for your class, or you have it but it's not currently a very strong skill. </P> <P>Overall, i realy hope they do some good for you guys. Grouped-fighter combat would be a great way for Berserkers and brawlers to still add defense to a raid while keeping a decient but not incredably overpowerfull personal dps, but you can still greatly improve the groups damage output, which is what i think you and your berserker buddies should ask the devs for, the ability to inspire rage and anger in your allies, greatly boosting their damage :smileywink: </P> <P>Well i hope we can find some good ways for berserkers to have damage without being too good at it but being at a happy and health medium while still having something to bring to a group thats desireable.</P> <P>Toodles!</P>