Tanks being judged only for their gear

[cr0wangel]

<DIV>I would like to have others opinions from tanks. Something upset me in game and people tell me I take it too personal. It upset me when players judge me for my gear. If you have good gear, they think you are a god like tank, if you have bad gear, you suck. However, the game is not  that simple in my opinion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I noticed that players (but not all of them) judge tank for their gear (armors, weapons, items). They inspect you, if they see the other tank have more defense or more HP, they refuse to let you tank. They don't take in consideration the player. I know gear is important, it play a major role in tanking, but in my opinion gear is not everything. The player, the level, the skills, the tactics are important too. To make it short, a good player with bad gear is better than a bad player with good gear. Gear help, but if the player is bad and don't know how to use his gear, gear is worthless.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I need some opinions here please, it seems everyone judge tank by gear and that only gear matter. Maybe I take it too personal, but it upset me when someone says '' Bob have 200 more HP, Bob MT''. -sigh- What is a raw number via a player? I believe a raw number should not be the ONLY reason to choose the MT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>cr0wangel wrote:<div>I would like to have others opinions from tanks. Something upset me in game and people tell me I take it too personal. It upset me when players judge me for my gear. If you have good gear, they think you are a god like tank, if you have bad gear, you suck. However, the game is not  that simple in my opinion.</div> <div> </div> <div>I noticed that players (but not all of them) judge tank for their gear (armors, weapons, items). They inspect you, if they see the other tank have more defense or more HP, they refuse to let you tank. They don't take in consideration the player. I know gear is important, it play a major role in tanking, but in my opinion gear is not everything. The player, the level, the skills, the tactics are important too. To make it short, a good player with bad gear is better than a bad player with good gear. Gear help, but if the player is bad and don't know how to use his gear, gear is worthless.</div> <div> </div> <div>I need some opinions here please, it seems everyone judge tank by gear and that only gear matter. Maybe I take it too personal, but it upset me when someone says '' Bob have 200 more HP, Bob MT''. -sigh- What is a raw number via a player? I believe a raw number should not be the ONLY reason to choose the MT.</div> <hr></blockquote> Speaking from my inquisitor side...  when dealing with two unknown tanks of the same level, gear is it... If I dont know you from adam, I really really want to deal with healing the person with higher mitigation/avoidance.. with a leaning towards mitigation due to how cleric heals work... with my fury I dont mind which of the two is higher...  but all things being equal gear is gonna be a large factor with me.. Once gear is eliminated from the equation, and again dealing with unknown tanks, I prefer berserkers first, guardians second monks and bruisers third and pally/sk fourth...  I like the agro control a berserker has by merely breathing, like the great defenses of the guardian and the avoidance of the brawlers.. for my inqusitor pally/sk are harder to heal due to their selfwarding...  not to mention the sheer number of them that seem to be in it for the soloability and cheap horse.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Once I know your style, -then- I can take that into account.. which is why I prefer guild groups over pickup groups... but again back to dealing with two equal level tanks.. once the group gets going and the MT shows he cannot tank it might be time to recommend a change...but until then less mana spent on heals means a faster pull next round..</span><div></div>

[cr0wangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Ariven wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>If I dont know you from adam, I really really want to deal with healing the person with higher mitigation/avoidance.. with a leaning towards mitigation due to how cleric heals work... </SPAN></P><SPAN></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>I understand you want the best for your group when you hunt. However, is it all that matter in this game? Efficiency? What about simply...having fun? My character is a dark elf, even with the same gear, same class, same level, I will not have the HP of an ogre or throll. Does that mean I am a bad tank? I don't think so.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Maybe this is me and I am wrong, but it seem everything that matter is success and efficiency. But success is worthless if you don't have fun in my opinion. I have seen people wearing armor they hate just because it give good bonus. What is the point of having the best stats ever if you don't have fun with your character?</FONT></SPAN></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ArivenGemini]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>cr0wangel wrote:<div></div> <blockquote><blockquote> <p></p> <hr> <p>Ariven wrote:<span>If I dont know you from adam, I really really want to deal with healing the person with higher mitigation/avoidance.. with a leaning towards mitigation due to how cleric heals work... </span></p><span></span></blockquote> <blockquote><span> <p><font color="#ff6600">I understand you want the best for your group when you hunt. However, is it all that matter in this game? Efficiency? What about simply...having fun? My character is a dark elf, even with the same gear, same class, same level, I will not have the HP of an ogre or throll. Does that mean I am a bad tank? I don't think so.</font></p> <p><font color="#ff6600">Maybe this is me and I am wrong, but it seem everything that matter is success and efficiency. But success is worthless if you don't have fun in my opinion. I have seen people wearing armor they hate just because it give good bonus. What is the point of having the best stats ever if you don't have fun with your character?</font></p></span><p></p> <p></p> <hr> </blockquote></blockquote><hr></blockquote> So, your definition of fun includes party wipes?  Mine sure doesn't.. I thought I was pretty clear, but let me try a different angle for you.   all other factors being equal, as a healer, I want to have to spend as little power as possible to keep the tank alive.. this gives me leeway in case of adds, bad pulls, bad rolls of the random number generator, etc.. I enjoy a good run at experience, I enjoy the socialization aspect of the game.. heck I even toss in a role play session or two..  but NONE of those includes the concept of having to spam direct heals on a tank that is out of his equipments league... spamming direct heals is a direct path to -me- tanking as a healer..and that is a direct path to party wipe..sure I have good armor as an inquisitor, and yes I have ended up tanking mobs from time to time.. it happens.. but there is a reason I am playing a healer and not a tank.. its to heal and NOT tank... I load up my beserker, monk or guardian (to be) for that fix... I want to do the job that I chose, and I want to do it well, efficiently and have the spare time and energy to ENJOY the game.. Another aspect of chosing someone based on gear.. I honestly cannot feel that a tank who isn't up to par in equipment is up to par in taunts and combat arts.. if he is behind the norm in hardware he is likely behind the curve in keeping the mob on HIM and not ME.. Yes, you can min/max and have people who go out and get that ebon rare crafted armor.. but can you honestly say that guy isn't doing what he can to maximise his role in the group?  Just like -I- am maximising -my- role by getting the best heals, buffs, etc as I can afford... as well as keeping -my- equipment up to date.. So back to the core,  if I dont know you and your tanking style, and I dont know some OTHER tank and HIS tanking style.. I am going to go with first instinct of the guy who has shown to be more interested in doing his job right... In fact, when I was behind the curve in equipment on my berserker I -refused- to be main tank until I could catch up.. because it was not fair to my group mates to depend upon me doing my job and have me let them down by not DOING my job.. It is expensive yes, it is not fair to the person who wants to look all snazzy and flashy yes... but it -works- as a good rule of thumb for unknowns.. On the other side of the coin, when you DO know someones tanking style, other factors come into play... I have been in groups where the best MT for the job was 3 levels below the highest fighter in group.. and had no way to be at the mitigation level of the upper level fighter.. but due to skill, competance and good gear was better at the job than the higher level tank..  skill is a large factor.. but we have no little guage that shows us that on inspection.. so that doens't come into play in those pickup groups does it? So in summation, yes it is about the fun...  but fun doesn't include party wipes, extra debt from poor equipment and stress over a crappy group.. edit:  Just saw your question about HP in your response.. Your original message seemed to be about equipment, not personal HP.. I am not in a lot of raids yet, and as long as my heals work to handle inbound damage sufficiently some variance in HP isn't an issue... I have worked with DE tanks, trolls, ogres, barbarians, humans, dwarves, halflings, gnomes.. etc etc... it isn't all about the HP at that point, it is capacity to reduce inbound damage to where I can deal with it as a healer and skill to keep the mobs attention while the rest of the group does it's job..</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Ariven on <span class=date_text>06-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:17 PM</span>

[Buzz]

Crow, I agree with you 100%.  It's sad, but it's true, folks judge a book by its cover EVERY time.  1- Gear / Guild  (( Believe it or not, folks who are in 'uber' guilds are viewed as better players, when that is so often not the case )) 2- Class 3- Race So, the one poster you have here is flat out telling you that "Yes, I am trading everything else for efficiency of healing." considering the odds are equal of a well equipped player being cool and a poorly equipped player being cool, it's hard to find fault with that view.  <span>:smileysad:</span> Still, I feel your pain.  The thing that gets lost in the translation is that GOOD GEAR DOES NOT EQUAL GOOD PLAYER.  All the Fabled gear in the universe isn't going to help a tank that can't hold aggro.  All the avoidance in the world isn't going to help a tank that can't position a critter effectively. <div></div>

[Pnaxx]

<DIV>Crow, if I may add something here.....A litle advise  *points to chair*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What i would reccommend you do is, find a group of players you like to group with, guild or otherwise, and let them get to know you. Once they see and experience what a great, if not a bit under equipted Tank you are, you will have no problem with that at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I generally do not have the best gear either, i just upgraded recently, but my gear  was green. blue and yellow and orange.....kinda like a nice big ice cream cone. But , at any rate, I have always found it rather easy to group with people, even strangers and lved very fast with this toon. 40 now</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe some grouping tequninques a in order here that may help you in grouping better and spreading your fame far and wide. Here are some things that I do that really help alot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Form your own group. Couple different ways to do this...</DIV> <DIV>   </DIV>

[Pnaxx]

<DIV>Crow, if I may add something here.....A litle advise  *points to chair*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What i would reccommend you do is, find a group of players you like to group with, guild or otherwise, and let them get to know you. Once they see and experience what a great, if not a bit under equipted Tank you are, you will have no problem with that at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I generally do not have the best gear either, i just upgraded recently, but my gear  was green. blue and yellow and orange.....kinda like a nice big ice cream cone. But , at any rate, I have always found it rather easy to group with people, even strangers and lved very fast with this toon. 40 now</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe some grouping tequninques a in order here that may help you in grouping better and spreading your fame far and wide. Here are some things that I do that really help alot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Form your own group. Couple different ways to do this...</DIV> <DIV>    </DIV>

[Pnaxx]

<DIV>Crow, if I may add something here.....A litle advise  *points to chair*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What i would reccommend you do is, find a group of players you like to group with, guild or otherwise, and let them get to know you. Once they see and experience what a great, if not a bit under equipted Tank you are, you will have no problem with that at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I generally do not have the best gear either, i just upgraded recently, but my gear  was green. blue and yellow and orange.....kinda like a nice big ice cream cone. But , at any rate, I have always found it rather easy to group with people, even strangers and lved very fast with this toon. 40 now</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe some grouping tequninques a in order here that may help you in grouping better and spreading your fame far and wide. Here are some things that I do that really help alot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Form your own group. Couple different ways to do this...1) Go to the LFG area under community, and invite players....they almost always are up fer something. And they say yes without knowing ur stats cept ur lvl. 2) when you see healers running around, ask them to duo with ye...they often do becuase they need a tank usually. 3) Go to palces where groups are needed and hang out there....groups are always loosing players in the middle of the fun and need to fill the viod fast......there they see you hanging around with your LFG tag on and bingo, ur in a nice fun group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope some of this helps...as coming from a player whio is not wearing the best stuff, but has a great rep fer Tanking and has no prob getting groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also...one more thing......when ur tanking fer an xp group, move from one mob to the next without much rest....peeps love that and just rest every once in a whilr to power up. Be frantic in your pace and pull adds sometimes to make to it fun too. You are the group leader for the most part and just go really fast from mob to mob....dont let them all catch their breath...they will like that and it means more xp with some adrenaline pumping too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*bows*</DIV> <DIV>Pnaxx</DIV> <DIV>       </DIV>

[Daran]

<div></div><div></div>I guess the main question is how much of difference the gear is going to make, by the way gear to me includes skills food drinks and sometimes potions. Now if your talking about a level 35 tank in a full suit of feyiron vs a level 35 tank in a full suit of feysteel? nope, sorry I really dont care one way or the other. However if we're talking about a 35 tank in carbonite vs a 35 tank in feyiron.....well thats a horse of a different color. I don't think I've ever seen a fighter told he shouldn't tank just cause he's using common crafted armor of the correct teir, however I have seen fighters told to step back because they never upgraded any abilities past apprentice 1. Does player skill matter? of course! But 9 out of 10 times a player in greyed out armor doesnt have much skill either. So Crow, I guess the question is "what do you consider to be adequate armor?". as for when you say 'some people wear armor they hate just for stats' if you choose to wear feyiron cause you like it more than feysteel (god that stuffs ugly) more power to ya, that money can go to making adept 3 skills instead, however if you show up in a pick up group with a 2 handed sword and a robe cause it 'looks pretty'....sorry, I dont trust you enough to tank. And as for Racial differences, there really aren't any that could make/break a fighter. Racial abilites (with maybe the exception of the +5 defense one) make next to no difference, +5 stamina means nothing, 3% health pool? nada. the next time someone picks the ogre cause they are a 'better tank', hold something shiny up and while they are distracted, drooling, and staring into the shiny object smack them upside the head as hard as you can. Can a Darkelf berserker in common armor with apprentice 4 skills do his/her job? yes, infact from what i hear in the upcoming Combat Revamp(tm) agility will be a huge boon to a warrior, and wisdom will help them resist spells. Intelligence will likely have some use as well. <div></div><p>Message Edited by DaranHB on <span class="date_text">06-27-2005</span> <span class="time_text">08:25 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by DaranHB on <span class=date_text>06-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:34 PM</span>

[cr0wangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ariven wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So, your definition of fun includes party wipes?  Mine sure doesn't..</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Did the word 'wipe' was in my post? o_O</FONT><BR><BR><BR>I want to do the job that I chose, and I want to do it well, efficiently and have the spare time and energy to ENJOY the game.. </P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Spare time to enjoy the game? I thought you should enjoy it every moment... If it's no fun, I don't it. After all it's a game. </FONT><BR><BR>Another aspect of chosing someone based on gear.. I honestly cannot feel that a tank who isn't up to par in equipment is up to par in taunts and combat arts.. if he is behind the norm in hardware he is likely behind the curve in keeping the mob on HIM and not ME..</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>Here you are wrong. My character don't have ebon armor yet, however I have no problem to keep aggro, taunt adept 3 since I have a friend alchemist. Someone in fulginate can keep aggro just fine in a hunting group, keep aggro is not related to your armor, but to taunts and the player.</FONT></P> <P><BR><BR>So back to the core,  if I dont know you and your tanking style, and I dont know some OTHER tank and HIS tanking style.. I am going to go with first instinct of the guy who has shown to be more interested in doing his job right...</P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>It's sad you think I am not interested to be a good tank because I don't have the gear you wish I have. Maybe I am an officer in a guild, maybe I help a lot my guild and mentoring and roleplaying and I don't have the plat to buy the ebon. If you give it to me, I will wear it right away, but I can't buy some, I don't have the money.</FONT></P><FONT color=#ff6600></FONT> <P><BR><BR>In fact, when I was behind the curve in equipment on my berserker I -refused- to be main tank until I could catch up.. because it was not fair to my group mates to depend upon me doing my job and have me let them down by not DOING my job..</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff6600>We are talking about hunting groups here, not about venekor. A fighter can easily tank with handcrafted armor just fine in an hunting group.</FONT></P> <P></SPAN><BR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>cr0wangel wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Ariven wrote: <span> <blockquote> <p>So, your definition of fun includes party wipes?  Mine sure doesn't..</p> <p><font color="#ff6600">Did the word 'wipe' was in my post? o_O</font>I want to do the job that I chose, and I want to do it well, efficiently and have the spare time and energy to ENJOY the game.. </p> <p><font color="#ff6600">Spare time to enjoy the game? I thought you should enjoy it every moment... If it's no fun, I don't it. After all it's a game. </font></p></blockquote></span></blockquote></blockquote><span></span><font color="#ffff00">And dealing with incompentant tanks makes it no fun. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font> <span></span> <blockquote> <span></span> <blockquote><span> <blockquote> <p>Another aspect of chosing someone based on gear.. I honestly cannot feel that a tank who isn't up to par in equipment is up to par in taunts and combat arts.. if he is behind the norm in hardware he is likely behind the curve in keeping the mob on HIM and not ME..</p> <p><font color="#ff6600">Here you are wrong. My character don't have ebon armor yet, however I have no problem to keep aggro, taunt adept 3 since I have a friend alchemist. Someone in fulginate can keep aggro just fine in a hunting group, keep aggro is not related to your armor, but to taunts and the player.</font></p> </blockquote> </span></blockquote> </blockquote> <span> <p><font color="#ffff00">Which is why I said "up to par" and "norm"  and not "elite armor" and "ahead of everyone else with ebon",  Daran said it best with " <b><i>However if we're talking about a 35 tank in carbonite vs a 35 tank in feyiron.....well thats a horse of a different color.</i> </b>"  I dont expect a casual pickup group to need to field the ebon armor (or feysteel or whatever for a given tier)... but I do expect the tank to have a reasonable approximation of CURRENT tier equipment.  If I see a tank at 31+ with AQ armor on, I am going to have to question his commitment to tanking and have to question if he has bothered to upgrade his taunts or knows how to play the class in the role of MT... again, as I have said before, if you dont know anything about the person you have to judge him based on what you can see.. and equipment is a good indicator in my book until I get to know his skills and style.</font> </p> </span> <blockquote><span></span> <blockquote><span> <blockquote> <p>So back to the core,  if I dont know you and your tanking style, and I dont know some OTHER tank and HIS tanking style.. I am going to go with first instinct of the guy who has shown to be more interested in doing his job right...</p> <p><font color="#ff6600">It's sad you think I am not interested to be a good tank because I don't have the gear you wish I have. Maybe I am an officer in a guild, maybe I help a lot my guild and mentoring and roleplaying and I don't have the plat to buy the ebon. If you give it to me, I will wear it right away, but I can't buy some, I don't have the money.</font></p> </blockquote> </span></blockquote> </blockquote> <span> <p><font color="#ffff00">Why do you assume that I mean ebon?  I am talking about general groups and average equipment for a level.  If someone steps up to the plate to tank, he needs current tier gear.. not previous tier gear.  I have seen people at 35 with AQ gear that maxed out 7 levels prior... that is irresponsible of them to do so and will get ME moving in a different direction fast...   You don't need to be elite to get a normal job done, but you should be up to date with the norm... It seems to me that you have a ulterior motive here attempting to paint me into the camp of "must have ebon to tank" and that is far from the truth, so please quit attempting to use me to further your agenda... </font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">But if someone cannot keep up to date on equipment I doubt they are up to date on anything else...  which is my whole point here... try to focus.</font><font color="#ffff00"> </font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">As for not having money, trust me I know exactly the situation.. I run with minimal cash reserves because I try to keep my equipment white or better, my class specific spells/abilities up to date and my food/drink going...  I have several alts to pay for so it costs a lot.. but.. as I mentioned before... if I fall behind the curve on my armor with one of my tanks, and I have too much blue armor or any green or grey I will NOT tank.. it isn't fair to my group..</font><font color="#ffff00"> </font> </p> </span> <blockquote><span></span> <blockquote><span> <blockquote> <p>In fact, when I was behind the curve in equipment on my berserker I -refused- to be main tank until I could catch up.. because it was not fair to my group mates to depend upon me doing my job and have me let them down by not DOING my job..</p> <p><font color="#ff6600">We are talking about hunting groups here, not about venekor. A fighter can easily tank with handcrafted armor just fine in an hunting group.</font></p> </blockquote> </span></blockquote> </blockquote> <span></span> <span> <p><font color="#ffff00">And this comment changes my point how?   If I have blue, green and/or grey armor I am making my entire group work harder than they should, and risking party wipe... even in a hunting group... for someone who claims to be poor you seem awfully cavalier about paying for repair costs..</font> </p> </span> <blockquote><span></span> <blockquote><span> <blockquote> </blockquote> <hr> </span></blockquote> <div></div><hr></blockquote> </span><div></div>

[RafaelSmith]

Well my 2cp... Yes gear is important but lets face it in EQ2 gear means very little.  Its all about the buffs, spells, combat arts, etc. I know as a Guardian if I had the best of the best in gear yet still had App1s of all my taunts, buffs, etc I would pretty much suck at holding aggro and being a tank.  Ide have impressive HP and AC but those wont do the healer or mage getting smacked on any good. BUT As long as Ive kept my gear decent for my level/tier, concentrated on upgrading all the combat arts I could, learned how and when to use them....people notice and want me back as their tank. To the OP My suggestion would be next time your in a situation where you feel your group wrongly passed you up for being MT...perhaps chat/tell with whomever they picked to MT.  If he/she is in agreement with you then you both decide you shall MT.. If some silly caster/priest disagrees then /disband and go find another group.  When ive been in situations where there is more than one choice for MT thats how ive handled it.  Tanks should know best about tanking..they should decide who should do the job.  <div></div>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>RafaelSmith wrote:Well my 2cp... BUT As long as Ive kept my gear decent for my level/tier, concentrated on upgrading all the combat arts I could, learned how and when to use them....people notice and want me back as their tank. <div></div><hr></blockquote> QFE <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Skill is the biggest factor, the hard part is telling skill when you dont know the person..</span><div></div>

[CherobylJ]

<P>Gear is nice but if you have a raid/hard exp group tank that cant position or react quickly to threats...well its going to be a frustrtaing night.  Good indication of a "good tank"; watch where they place themselves.  If they consistently find spots where they are out of pats/in a good position to get agro and/or can pull while running backwards (akin to keeping the ball in front of you in baseball) well you'll see control. Control generally means more success.  I imagine as the game progresses and you see more complex stratgies akin to EQ1 on raids skill will become even more important.</P> <P>The irony is that most good tanks also tend to have good gear...at least if they play fairly often. </P>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>CherobylJoe wrote:<p>Gear is nice but if you have a raid/hard exp group tank that cant position or react quickly to threats...well its going to be a frustrtaing night.  Good indication of a "good tank"; watch where they place themselves.  If they consistently find spots where they are out of pats/in a good position to get agro and/or can pull while running backwards (akin to keeping the ball in front of you in baseball) well you'll see control. Control generally means more success.  I imagine as the game progresses and you see more complex stratgies akin to EQ1 on raids skill will become even more important.</p> <p>The irony is that most good tanks also tend to have good gear...at least if they play fairly often. </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Aye. But in EQ2 "good gear" is so easy to get that even the worst tanks in the game will have it.  Ive been in raids/groups with tanks with far far "better" gear than I that I will never group with again.  The only solice that I take is that those guys thru their own actions will have very expensive mending costs =P </span><div></div>

[cr0wangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ariven wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><SPAN></SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00>And dealing with incompentant tanks makes it no fun. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN><FONT color=#ff9900>Where did I said I was a incompetent tank? I said: I am tired that people judge me for my gear, not I was incompetent. You never played the game with me, so I ask that you stay on topic please and don't throw personal insult.</FONT> <P><BR></P><SPAN></SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffff00>You don't need to be elite to get a normal job done, but you should be up to date with the norm...</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ff9900>Well, I was wrong, I thougt you was saying you need to be elite to do any job done. Most players think that way.</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00><BR></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>As for not having money, trust me I know exactly the situation.. I run with minimal cash reserves because I try to keep my equipment white or better, my class specific spells/abilities up to date and my food/drink going...  I have several alts to pay for so it costs a lot.. but.. as I mentioned before... if I fall behind the curve on my armor with one of my tanks, and I have too much blue armor or any green or grey I will NOT tank.. it isn't fair to my group..</FONT><FONT color=#ffff00><BR></FONT><BR></P></SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN></SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Did I say my equipment is not up to date? No. It is up to date, but there is not the word EBON on each part so for many players, if you don't have EBON armor and fabled items, you're not good.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><SPAN> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>And this comment changes my point how?   If I have blue, green and/or grey armor I am making my entire group work harder than they should, and risking party wipe... even in a hunting group... for someone who claims to be poor you seem awfully cavalier about paying for repair costs..</FONT><BR></P></SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN></SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>why you keep insisting about group wipe? I never said I was causing group wipe. My equipment is orange, yellow, white. I don't cause wipe at all, but I am tired of people saying I can't tank since of equipment or because the other tank have more HP. I should have mentioned the EBON thing, it was confusing. Most of time when people tell me my equipement is crap, they mean I don't have EBON.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[cr0wangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CherobylJoe wrote:<BR> <P>The irony is that most good tanks also tend to have good gear...at least if they play fairly often. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree, but on my server an ebon cluster cost between 4-6 plats. I harvest to try to find some ebon and kill named, so far I found one. :smileyhappy: So not bad. But I don't have 50 plat in bank to buy all ebon I need and ruby for rings and etc and etc... But it doesn't mean I am not a good tank because I don't have the plat.</DIV>

[Sabin the Gre]

<DIV>I will say that having the best gear does not always mean being the being the best player, but you have to expect that, as posted above, gear between two unknown tanks will likely be the deciding factor in who you choose.  However, I don't really feel that this is specific to just tanks.  Lets say I'm choosing a warlock.  If one dude is wearing greened out gear and another is in great gear my instinct will be to grab the one with good gear.  More than anything games like this will come down to that type of comparison.  My advice to you would be find a good guild.  Guilds generally find a way to help the good players get better.  And in the mean time, when you're not tanking, you should do everything you can to be the best non-tank you can.</DIV>

[Darkd]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cr0wangel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CherobylJoe wrote:<BR> <P>The irony is that most good tanks also tend to have good gear...at least if they play fairly often. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree, but on my server an ebon cluster cost between 4-6 plats. I harvest to try to find some ebon and kill named, so far I found one. :smileyhappy: So not bad. But I don't have 50 plat in bank to buy all ebon I need and ruby for rings and etc and etc... But it doesn't mean I am not a good tank because I don't have the plat.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I disagree,  and honestly at this stage of the game I think converting an ebon to armor right now would be a waste.  Currently on my server an ebon cluster runs for 2-4 pp.  In a few months there will be an expansion that is coming out and the armor and gear available in it will be far better than any ebon gear currently and there are other alternatives to fulginate on the market right now.  Look at the gear coming out of return from Nek and stuff dropping from raid mobs.  If you look at most of the elite guilds right now none of their MT are in ebon, they are in their shiny whites (Fabled).  So I would sell the ebon and save the money for more important things like combat art upgrades and jewelry.  I got my set of gear for under 1 plat and everything is better than fulginate, not as good as ebon, but no one seems to notice when I am tanking.  The bigger problem we have is the brained washed guild masters that will not even give a zerker an oppertunity to tank x3 and lower raid mobs.

[cr0wangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darkdog wrote:<BR><BR><BR>Currently on my server an ebon cluster runs for 2-4 pp.  In a few months there will be an expansion that is coming out and the armor and gear available in it will be far better than any ebon gear currently and there are other alternatives to fulginate on the market right now.  Look at the gear coming out of return from Nek and stuff dropping from raid mobs. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Well thats my gear for now. I will have an ebon breastplate soon because I won an ebon, but my others part of armor are silvered vanguard of everling (something like that) so not bad at all. It's orange and I am level 50. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But what upset me is, in group, they inspect the fighters and choose the one with the best numbers. NO others factors is considered. It's a social matter, more than a game matter.</DIV>

[Darkd]

Its always that way.  Put two guys side by side both looking the same and a girl will pick the one wearing Ralph Lauren over the K-Mart polo any day.

[Padi]

<P>I guess I'll try to be simple in telling you what everyone else has tried to tell you.</P> <P>When you are in a pickup group, no one knows anyone.  They do not know what spells you have adepts in or not.  They do not know if you have skill playing your charactor or not.  <STRONG><U>All they have to compare you against the other tanks in the group is your gear and level.</U></STRONG></P> <P>Because of this, they are going to choose the <STRONG><U>best tank with the knowledge they have availible</U></STRONG>.</P> <P>This does not mean you are a bad tank.  It does not mean they think you are a bad tank.  It means that with the knowledge availible, you are not the best tank.</P> <P>As someone who rarely had the best equipment for most my zerkers leveling, I found forming myown groups worked out best.  After you group with enough people, and you proove to be a good tank, you might find yourself in the same position I did; with several people begging you to join their group everytime you logged in.  The reason they would want me as their tank is because <STRONG><U>after they grouped with me, they now have more knowledge about my ability to tank</U></STRONG>.</P> <P>If you don't like another tank being chosen over you, then just form yourown groups.  All will work itself out.  You might find even after you have been the tank of a group, people still don't think you are very good.  Let's face it, <EM><STRONG>90% of the tanks, if not more, are not very good or down right suck, and while you might think you are great, you might not be</STRONG>.</EM></P><p>Message Edited by Padien on <span class=date_text>06-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:32 PM</span>

[cr0wangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Padien wrote:<BR> <P>I guess I'll try to be simple in telling you what everyone else has tried to tell you.</P> <P>When you are in a pickup group, no one knows anyone.  They do not know what spells you have adepts in or not.  They do not know if you have skill playing your charactor or not.  <STRONG><U>All they have to compare you against the other tanks in the group is your gear and level.</U></STRONG></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>What about the people that know you but still choose the guy with more HP?</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by cr0wangel on <span class=date_text>06-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:49 AM</span>

[Ru]

Unless they know that one person is an awesome tank, and the other is a lousy one, they are going to pick the one that's statiscially better. More Mit, HP, and avoidance. It's been said before, but that's just the way it is. I'm surprised this thread is still going. Now, if you have grouped with both tanks before, and you know one is better than the other... Unless there is a big differance, it would be stupid to not pick the one that can keep hate. But, in a pickup group, more often than not, the one in better gear will be the more experianced player, have higher quality skills, and all around, be the better tank. If you are a Berserker though, that shouldn't be a problem. switch to DPS mode, and prove he can't hold aggro... Or, pick up his slack. <div></div>

[Padi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> cr0wangel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Padien wrote:<BR> <P>I guess I'll try to be simple in telling you what everyone else has tried to tell you.</P> <P>When you are in a pickup group, no one knows anyone.  They do not know what spells you have adepts in or not.  They do not know if you have skill playing your charactor or not.  <STRONG><U>All they have to compare you against the other tanks in the group is your gear and level.</U></STRONG></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>What about the people that know you but still choose the guy with more HP?</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Message Edited by cr0wangel on <SPAN class=date_text>06-30-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:49 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This definately would make me think a bit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If they know you both and they choose to have the other guy tank due to gear, perhaps you aren't as good as you think you are in other catagories.  Perhaps you are average, most people are after all, that's what average is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We all like to think we are great.  We choose our play style because it's comfortable to us, but that doesn't mean it's comfortable to everyone else, or stands out as great to others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are plenty of people out there that prefer to have a lower level and or lesser equipped tank to tank when they know the person with lesser qualifications is very good at doing their job anyways.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Padi]

<P>And one more thought.</P> <P>On raids, on particularly challenging fights, sometimes it's best to just have the person with the best gear and HP to tank that one fight.  The person with the skills and all can still plan the battle, dictate what to do, but sometimes the gear and HP can make a difference in special fights and you can talk them through the skill part. (i.e. raids)</P>

[cr0wangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ruse wrote:<BR>you are a Berserker though, that shouldn't be a problem. switch to DPS mode, and prove he can't hold aggro... Or, pick up his slack. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Wow. Good team work to get the aggro off the MT.... that's not a solution.</DIV>

[DwarvesR]

<P>I am not yet a zerker with my new toon that's gonna go zerk, but I can still comment a touch on this, I think.</P> <P>1)  It's not always the gear, it's also the class.  My mystic doesn't get picked up for a group much, in spite of having a complete set of pristine player-made, tier-appropriate gear.  I also have upgraded every single last one of my skills to at least App4, if not Ad1.  And I do well enough as a healer that I actually have been thanked more than once for doing so well at the end of pick-up groups.  But all people see is "Mystic" and think "They're the gimped ones."  In spite of the good gear that they can see on inspect.</P> <P>My monk is in largely the same situation, though his gear is only "regular" player-made instead of pristine.  I have no problem being the offtank and peeling mobs off casters if the MT loses aggro.  In fact, I kinda like that role.  But it's still plenty annoying to be the only fighter in a group and have the templar say "Well, I guess I'll be the tank, then."  Of course, the times that has happened, I just pulled and kept aggro and they all realized pretty quick that I could tank just fine, even as a "dps class." :smileymad:</P> <P>Same for my 33rd level SK.  All of my spells/ca's are Adept 1, with the very occasional App4.  All my armor is at least feyiron, with an imbued feysteel breastplate, legendary sword, and fabled shield.  I solo heroic groups of 3 that are 2 levels higher than me.  But everyone says "SK -- can't tank."  At least, until after the 1st pull. . . . .assuming I can get into a group in the 1st place.</P> <P>2) Sometimes a piece of equipment is let go gray on purpose.  My 28th level warlock is wearing a robe that was green to her when she got it at 23 and has been gray since 24.  Why?  It has a +10 Int on it.  I'm in process of getting a robe with better stats for "everything else" and "only" a +8 INT pretty quick here so I won't be taking a real hit on Int, but until then, this robe is functional, and the +10 int at her level is worth the lower mitigation.  Since I *did* buy the pristine player made robe for Tier 3 and equipped it and watched my power go down and my mitigation only increased by 0.3% -- let's just say I'll keep my gray robe until I find one that is completely superior.  Plus it's a relatively rare robe so it is a pretty unique look too.  In spite of that -- I have spent over 1.5 platinum on my spell upgrades and have several adept 3's, and have to be careful not to overnuke and get aggro from chain-taunting tanks that are 6 levels higher than I am.  Every group I've been in so far has had someone say "I have GOT to get me a warlock!!!  That is some amazing dps!"  But if they examine me -- they see a gray robe.  Even though everything *else* is upgraded. . . . .that still usually is a "turn off" for them.</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway... .that's my vent on the topic.  And in reply to the last post -- yes, I really hate it when I actually am MT and the 2nd fighter in the group starts tossing taunts.</DIV>

[ERROR]

Crow... I don't know how anyone can make this any more clear to you. Here's an example: <ul> <li>A group forms up.. 2 Tanks, 1 healer, 3 DPS. </li> <li><font color="#ff0000">No one knows one another.</font></li> <li>Tank A is decked out in mint gear with sick stats, making his MaxHP / Avoid better</li> <li>Tank B is wearing gear with less stats, so he's going to take more damage and mobs will land hits on him more frequently.</li> <li>Both Tank A and Tank B think that they are the best man (or woman) for the job.</li> </ul> Rather then sitting around for 2 hours, arguing about who has better tactics/skills... Guess what! The healer and DPS are going to pick the tank that is better outfitted. It's the <font color="#ff0000">ONLY</font> logical salution. It's only rational to pick the tank that has the most patental to do the best job. Also, you said that the game is all about fun right? But who's fun are you talking about? Being grouped with two tanks who are constantly fighting about who is better isn't much fun for everyone else in the party. As for your friends wanting someone else to tank in your place... Like somebody said already, maybe you aren't the best tank for the job after all. It happens. Not everyone can be the best (obviously) and you're going to have to deal with that. <font color="#66ff00">PS: Before you pick apart my post and quote line by line, out of context ( seems you like doing that ), save it. It's all the same point.</font> <div></div>

[Ambergr]

<DIV>Gear is something that makes a huge deal of difference - though in many cases it is the invisible gear that makes the most difference - by which I'm talking CAs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Given easy mobs the armour gear of two tanks may be irrelevent - since aggro and maximising DPS is far more likely to be an issue than survival. A poorly armoured berserker with master in Bully and Anarchy is in this case probably better than his more fabled armoured compatriot who has slacked in spells.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I were chosing just by appearances however, I'd chose the one with the better visible gear. Is it fair, perhaps not, but it is most certainly logical. Given intangible differences which are not instantly testable or visible differences it is always the latter which will be used.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The answer is, of course, to have decent gear and play well <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[cr0wangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ERROR wrote:<BR>Crow...<BR><BR>I don't know how anyone can make this any more clear to you.<BR><BR>Here's an example:<BR> <UL> <LI>A group forms up.. 2 Tanks, 1 healer, 3 DPS. </LI> <LI><FONT color=#ff0000>No one knows one another.</FONT></LI> <LI>Tank A is decked out in mint gear with sick stats, making his MaxHP / Avoid better</LI> <LI>Tank B is wearing gear with less stats, so he's going to take more damage and mobs will land hits on him more frequently.</LI> <LI>Both Tank A and Tank B think that they are the best man (or woman) for the job.</LI></UL> <P><BR>Rather then sitting around for 2 hours, arguing about who has better tactics/skills... Guess what! The healer and DPS are going to pick the tank that is better outfitted. It's the <FONT color=#ff0000>ONLY</FONT> logical salution. It's only rational to pick the tank that has the most patental to do the best job.<BR><BR>Also, you said that the game is all about fun right? But who's fun are you talking about? Being grouped with two tanks who are constantly fighting about who is better isn't much fun for everyone else in the party.<BR><BR>As for your friends wanting someone else to tank in your place... Like somebody said already, maybe you aren't the best tank for the job after all. It happens. Not everyone can be the best (obviously) and you're going to have to deal with that.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>They know me, they know I do my job well, but my character is dark elf so they often want another to tank because of HP or sometimes gear. My point is, numbers is not what make a tank good or bad. Since I have 200 HP less, I have to argue with the group if I want to tank and it get annoying. Do a healer argue if he want to heal in a group? Do the scout argue if he want to make damage? Of course not. But there is often only 1 tank, and all they see is raw numbers. They don't ask me if I came in that zone before, if I fighted that named before, etc... They check the raw numbers, they see more HP, they choose the guy. Which is unwise in my opinion.</FONT><BR><BR><FONT color=#66ff00>PS: Before you pick apart my post and quote line by line, out of context ( seems you like doing that ), save it. It's all the same point.</FONT><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Styk]

Plain and simple, if you dont know the group you just joined and they have a tank in group already with better gear and stats then you , why should you expect to tank? See first how effective the tank is and IF you run into major problems with agro,pulls etc then take it from him and show that your better... If he does a good job then pull our your 2H and wack away ..... xp is xp and or quests are quests, if you really want to tank and group thinks otherwise then find a new group <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Simple as that <div></div>

[cr0wangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR>Plain and simple, if you dont know the group you just joined and they have a tank in group already with better gear and stats then you , why should you expect to tank? See first how effective the tank is and IF you run into major problems with agro,pulls etc then take it from him and show that your better... If he does a good job then pull our your 2H and wack away ..... xp is xp and or quests are quests, if you really want to tank and group thinks otherwise then find a new group <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Simple as that<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What you are saying is good, except I am level 50 already, I don't need xp anymore. When I group with people is for fun or to help. However, I do not like following, assisting and making damage. Berserker do nice damage, but it bore me quickly to assist. :smileysad: Sometimes I do it of course, to help or when I need the quest. But I prefer much more to be the MT, pull the mob, manage the aggro, etc.</P> <P>When there is already a MT in the group, I respect that. I was talking about when the group is forming, and everyone have to decide who will be MT and there are multiple fighters. Too often, I have heard ''I think Bob should be MT he has more HP -sigh- or when we face a named ''I think bob should tank the named he has more HP'' It upset me because when people say that, it sounds like I suck only because of a raw number, they really think I can't tank because I have 200 HP less, so it's ridiculous. More HP help, in a raid it will be very important, but I am talking about hunting groups, I can do the job perfectly even with less HP. I know orgre, throll, barbarian are best suited to be tank but I choose dark elf for a roleplay reason, I did not know that people will judge me for my numbers. Glad I am not an erudite.</P> <P>My main point was, in this game, there is a lot of ''munchkin''. There is a difference between a munchkin and a paragamer. Munchkins play to win. I play to have fun. (Don't misunderstood, winning is fun. But thats not the ONLY thing that is fun.)</P> <P>Min-max, min-maxing</P> <P>To carefully tweak a character so as to optimize the character for one thing, usually combat, often at the expense of other aspects of the character; or, to tweak a character to take advantage of quirks in the rules to do the same thing.</P> <P>Munchkin</P> <P>Attempting to "win" the game, even at the expense of the other players. </P><p>Message Edited by cr0wangel on <span class=date_text>07-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:41 AM</span>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>cr0wangel wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Styker wrote:Plain and simple, if you dont know the group you just joined and they have a tank in group already with better gear and stats then you , why should you expect to tank? See first how effective the tank is and IF you run into major problems with agro,pulls etc then take it from him and show that your better... If he does a good job then pull our your 2H and wack away ..... xp is xp and or quests are quests, if you really want to tank and group thinks otherwise then find a new group <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Simple as that <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>What you are saying is good, except I am level 50 already, I don't need xp anymore. When I group with people is for fun or to help. However, I do not like following, assisting and making damage. Berserker do nice damage, but it bore me quickly to assist. :smileysad: Sometimes I do it of course, to help or when I need the quest. But I prefer much more to be the MT, pull the mob, manage the aggro, etc.</p> <p>When there is already a MT in the group, I respect that. I was talking about when the group is forming, and everyone have to decide who will be MT and there are multiple fighters. Too often, I have heard ''I think Bob should be MT he has more HP -sigh- or when we face a named ''I think bob should tank the named he has more HP'' It upset me because when people say that, it sounds like I suck only because of a raw number, they really think I can't tank because I have 200 HP less, so it's ridiculous. More HP help, in a raid it will be very important, but I am talking about hunting groups, I can do the job perfectly even with less HP. I know orgre, throll, barbarian are best suited to be tank but I choose dark elf for a roleplay reason, I did not know that people will judge me for my numbers. Glad I am not an erudite.</p> <p>My main point was, in this game, there is a lot of ''munchkin''. There is a difference between a munchkin and a paragamer. Munchkins play to win. I play to have fun. (Don't misunderstood, winning is fun. But thats not the ONLY thing that is fun.)</p><hr></blockquote> What it really comes down to is this selections of options: 1) Live with it 2) Start your own groups, you get to make the rules. 3) try to overcome it with even better gear 4) Reroll to a "better" race You are not going to change human nature here Crow...   all other things being equal, if one stat is better then thats who is going to win... I, nor are most of us, am not going to administer a long psych profile, in game quiz and ask for resumes when selecting a tank... we are all going to have our preconceived notions... and if being passed over because you are not perfect to some stranger when you admittedly have less in some area really bothers you, I urge you to take option 4... you will be happier in the long run... Your best bet in the short run is to just take option 2... and dont invite other tanks... you win by default...but no matter what option you want.. there is no option to change other peoples notions.... you can merely play your best and hope they choose to change them on their own.. coming here and complaining because you chose role play over min/max and are having problems grouping with people who want the best for their groups isn't going to change a single souls opinions... Make your choice and live with it...</span><div></div>

[einar4]

<DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Generally if a group is so an_l that gear is going to be used as the criteria for selecting a group member, then that group is probably pretty clueless with regards to tactics and other subtleties.  So in the end you are probably better off being passed over by that party.   I tend to develop a reputation so that people know me as a MT for clarity of communication, precision, situational awareness, and an quickness of understanding of the roles and abilities of the other members of the party, not only for their archetypes, but picking up on their playstyles.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> If someone doesn't want me in their group because the gauntlets I'm wearing aren't l33t enough, oh well, what the h_ll. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[DUNN]

<DIV>Yikes i would have never MT with that mentality.  I always kept up to gear as a SOE red headed step tank i got beat like no other with the best gear.  I guess that is why you have knights at the bottom of your list as  tanks hehe. By the way i was MT for 50 lvl's even with  2 warlocks and 2 wizzies in my group :p</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In reality tanking is never about the gear, but rather how well you can keep that aggro on you.  Spells are your freind an knowing how to use them in the right way makes you a good tank.  Any good healer can keep a tank up no matter what gear  he is wearing in a group. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have seen some crappy tanks with the best gear and all spells upgraded and some aawsome tanks with the bear minimum gear.  So can i just say BS on the whole gear makes a good tank thing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Knowing how to use your skills makes one a good tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raids however are a whole different thing.</DIV>

[cr0wangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Ariven wrote:<BR><SPAN>coming here and complaining because you chose role play over min/max and are having problems grouping with people who want the best for their groups isn't going to change a single souls opinions...<BR></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Why it won't change people opinion? Forum are here to express yourselves. I noticed that the min/maxing is worst in everquest than in others games I played before and that's why I made this post. Everquest seem to be about items and numbers, more than characters. I thought it was a RPG, for roleplaying game, not an ''item wearing game''.</DIV><p>Message Edited by cr0wangel on <span class=date_text>07-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:45 PM</span>

[Padi]

<P>Look, everyone here has been pretty nice and danced around the reality here.</P> <P>Truth is, good tanks, or at least exceptional tanks are picked as the MT regardless of equipment and HP.  The reason the people you know aren't wanting you to tank is you are at best, average.</P> <P>Average is what most people are, so it really isn't like you are a [Removed for Content] (although you could suck at tanking).</P> <P>As an example of people who do choose skill over gear, race and HP.  I have always been asked to MT and I play a gnome zerker.  I get chosen to tank over guardians in full ebon all the time, regardless of level.  Heck, I was even asked to stay MT when playing my gnome Dirge in Runnyeye before when a guardian joined.  I know I'm a good tank and people let me know.  People don't care what your stats are if you show yourself to clearly be a better tank.</P> <P>Now, one note.  I have asked other tanks to MT on a particularly tough mob that I didn't feel I'd be able to manage (gnome, low HP and I don't have the +5 defensive trait due to race), but even on those fights, my group wanted me to tank until I convinced them otherwise.</P>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>cr0wangel wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <p></p> <hr> <p>Ariven wrote:<span>coming here and complaining because you chose role play over min/max and are having problems grouping with people who want the best for their groups isn't going to change a single souls opinions...</span></p> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Why it won't change people opinion? Forum are here to express yourselves. I noticed that the min/maxing is worst in everquest than in others games I played before and that's why I made this post. Everquest seem to be about items and numbers, more than characters. I thought it was a RPG, for roleplaying game, not an ''item wearing game''.</div><p>Message Edited by cr0wangel on <span class="date_text">07-06-2005</span> <span class="time_text">02:45 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Why?  because you cannot force a change to everyone just to meet your whims... and it is foolish to think so...   sure you can lay out arguments, like us trying to tell you some matter of fact stuff... but in the end the ONLY way someone is going to change how they do things is if they decide to change themselves.. Again, since I still like beating against stone walls that wont change.. if as stipulated you know nothing at all about the tank, and can only judge by apparant differences in gear.. that is the method most are going to use.. you are going to have to get used to either disappointment or that fact... Showing youself a better tank, starting your own group, etc.. all means to circumvent this.. but if you ONLY HAVE gear to go by, thats what is going to be used...  your role play argument is all well and good.. but it is meaningless here.. not relevant nor important.. If you want a ROLE PLAY group, start one.. role play your heart out... I do when I am in a RP mood... but down to brass tacks.. you postulate a situation that happens a lot... random players getting together with no knowledge of the tanks.. then yes.. gear is it..  once they know your tanking style the entire equation changes.. I have had guardians 4+ levels higher than me opt out of tanking in favor of me, even using my monk because they know I can do the job that we were there for.. obviously my "gear" isn't up to their level... but they and the group knew I was up to the job and able to traverse the gap due to skill alone...  heck when playing my berserker I am the main tank or not in the group...  not due to some egotistical problems or RP issues.. I am mt because I cannot do the job of DPS as effectively as I could playing my swashbuckler... especially haveing to tone down attacks so much to not gain agro off the MT..I am wasting everyones time if I try that so I either MT, leave group or load a DPSer.. But, fact of the matter is.. regardless of your agenda to change us all into mindless followers of "I am a role player so I can still be exactly as good as that professional tanker"  your preferances are not gonna make people change.. DEMONSTRATE you can do the job, and people will change themselves...  you complaining about how you chose your race for RP and it isn't fair that someone who is better equiped and has higher HP is picked in a grind group isn't going to make your grind group change their mind...  so find a RP group, start your own group and show people how good you are... </span><div></div>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>Padien wrote:<p>Look, everyone here has been pretty nice and danced around the reality here.</p> <p>Truth is, good tanks, or at least exceptional tanks are picked as the MT regardless of equipment and HP.  The reason the people you know aren't wanting you to tank is you are at best, average.</p> <p>Average is what most people are, so it really isn't like you are a [Removed for Content] (although you could suck at tanking).</p> <p>As an example of people who do choose skill over gear, race and HP.  I have always been asked to MT and I play a gnome zerker.  I get chosen to tank over guardians in full ebon all the time, regardless of level.  Heck, I was even asked to stay MT when playing my gnome Dirge in Runnyeye before when a guardian joined.  I know I'm a good tank and people let me know.  People don't care what your stats are if you show yourself to clearly be a better tank.</p> <p>Now, one note.  I have asked other tanks to MT on a particularly tough mob that I didn't feel I'd be able to manage (gnome, low HP and I don't have the +5 defensive trait due to race), but even on those fights, my group wanted me to tank until I convinced them otherwise.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Exactly.. I have no qualms about stepping aside for a better tank.. or a tank who is as good as me but who has higher mit/avoid/etc..     heck sometimes I dont even want the hassle which is why I have different alts..  emotions and RP aside, when grinding out xp, it helps to be efficient and to work as a team not to demand you are MT just because you want to be... show people... demonstrate.. make them WANT you..</span><div></div>

[cr0wangel]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ariven wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why?  because you cannot force a change to everyone just to meet your whims... and it is foolish to think so...   sure you can lay out arguments, like us trying to tell you some matter of fact stuff... but in the end the ONLY way someone is going to change how they do things is if they decide to change themselves..<BR><BR>Again, since I still like beating against stone walls that wont change.. if as stipulated you know nothing at all about the tank, and can only judge by apparant differences in gear.. that is the method most are going to use.. you are going to have to get used to either disappointment or that fact...<BR><BR>Showing youself a better tank, starting your own group, etc.. all means to circumvent this.. but if you ONLY HAVE gear to go by, thats what is going to be used...  your role play argument is all well and good.. but it is meaningless here.. not relevant nor important..</P> <P><BR>If you want a ROLE PLAY group, start one.. role play your heart out... I do when I am in a RP mood... but down to brass tacks.. you postulate a situation that happens a lot... random players getting together with no knowledge of the tanks.. then yes.. gear is it..  once they know your tanking style the entire equation changes..</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT><BR>I have had guardians 4+ levels higher than me opt out of tanking in favor of me, even using my monk because they know I can do the job that we were there for.. obviously my "gear" isn't up to their level... but they and the group knew I was up to the job and able to traverse the gap due to skill alone...  heck when playing my berserker I am the main tank or not in the group...  not due to some egotistical problems or RP issues.. I am mt because I cannot do the job of DPS as effectively as I could playing my swashbuckler... especially haveing to tone down attacks so much to not gain agro off the MT..I am wasting everyones time if I try that so I either MT, leave group or load a DPSer..<BR><BR>But, fact of the matter is.. regardless of your agenda to change us all into mindless followers of "I am a role player so I can still be exactly as good as that professional tanker"  your preferances are not gonna make people change..</P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>What you say here is mean and prejudices toward roleplayers. This is NOT because I am a roleplayer that I cannot be a good tank, this is not because I am a roleplayer that I cannot do the job. A roleplayer can be a professional tanker, healer, or anything else. It's sad that you think roleplayers are not good as powergamers. We have different play style, but it all depend of the player, one can be as good as the other.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900><BR></FONT><BR>DEMONSTRATE you can do the job, and people will change themselves...  you complaining about how you chose your race for RP and it isn't fair that someone who is better equiped and has higher HP is picked in a grind group isn't going to make your grind group change their mind...  so find a RP group, start your own group and show people how good you are...</SPAN><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>cr0wangel wrote:<div></div> <div> <blockquote> <hr> Ariven wrote:<span><p>But, fact of the matter is.. regardless of your agenda to change us all into mindless followers of "I am a role player so I can still be exactly as good as that professional tanker"  your preferances are not gonna make people change..</p> <p><font color="#ff9900">What you say here is mean and prejudices toward roleplayers. This is NOT because I am a roleplayer that I cannot be a good tank, this is not because I am a roleplayer that I cannot do the job. A roleplayer can be a professional tanker, healer, or anything else. It's sad that you think roleplayers are not good as powergamers. We have different play style, but it all depend of the player, one can be as good as the other.</font></p> <p>DEMONSTRATE you can do the job, and people will change themselves...  you complaining about how you chose your race for RP and it isn't fair that someone who is better equiped and has higher HP is picked in a grind group isn't going to make your grind group change their mind...  so find a RP group, start your own group and show people how good you are.</p></span><p></p> <p></p> <hr> </blockquote></div><hr></blockquote> Play style has nothing to do with it, and your attempt to yet again divert the whole point of my commentary is duly noted and promptly ignored...  Try re-reading my post and how it addresses your concerns and maybe you will understand what several of us have tried to impart to you. </span><div></div>

[Padi]

<P>Here it is for you spelled out in as few words as possible:</P> <P>You aren't a great tank. (Couldn't tell you if you are good or bad, but you don't stand out obviously)</P> <P>Roleplaying has nothing to do with it.</P> <P>People choose the person with the best gear because you don't demonstrate anything that would show your skill will be worth more than your gear.</P> <p>Message Edited by Padien on <span class=date_text>07-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:09 PM</span>

[cr0wangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Padien wrote:<BR> <P>Here it is for you spelled out in as few words as possible:</P> <P>You aren't a great tank. (Couldn't tell you if you are good or bad, but you don't stand out obviously)</P> <P>Roleplaying has nothing to do with it.</P> <P>People choose the person with the best gear because you don't demonstrate anything that would show your skill will be worth more than your gear.</P> <P>Message Edited by Padien on <SPAN class=date_text>07-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:09 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Did you play the game with me? I am on lucan dlere server. What is the name of your character and server? If you grouped with me, you can judge. If you never grouped with me, your judgement have no value. I don't know if I grouped with you, you did not even post your name and server...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I believe: people choose the person with the best gear because they want to win, but it goes wrong, when the <EM>only</EM> thing that matter is to win.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Padi]

<DIV>I play on Befallen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can tell you aren't a great tank because of the way people you even know treat you.  If people who know how you tank still measure up your gear to no comers, then they don't have full confidence in you, which means you lack something.  It doesn't mean you suck, but it does mean you aren't a stand out tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I first played this game, I played with my illusionist, Padian.  I also grouped with Hiro.  Everyone who ever grouped with Hiro regarded him as the best or close to it.  No one questioned his gear, no one cared what level he was.  He was the tank, period.  He earned respect from the players around him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Later I made a gnome zerker, Zanten.  Sometime in the early 20's I started grouping a lot and found myself well liked.  At first I just put together groups from random people.  As I grouped with them, I kept getting the same responses.  "Wow, this is an awesome group." proceeded by tells of people telling me I was a great tank and all sorts of things.  After a while I got a lot of tells of people who wanted to group with me.  From every healer I grouped with and many others.  Including people who I booted from the group because I didn't like a few of their behavior issues (and proceeded to beg me for a month to join up with me.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thing is, I wore a lot of green armor, I had low HP and was a gnome to begin with.  There are couple of other tanks I've seen who also get the same respect.  They do it because of their leadership and ability to perform the roles of tank.  Not because they have uber gear, although a good tank will usually find good gear along the way eventually.  They are respect because they are great tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But here is the thing.  Only about 5% of the tanks, if that, will get that sort of respect.  Most tanks just don't demonstrate exceptional abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dispite all your words, you only show that the people around you do not give you the respect a great tank will get.  You obviously aren't a great tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>I don't mean to be rude, but you keep going round in circles ignoring the many subtle hints people have left and you need the straight hard facts.  You aren't Great.</EM></DIV>

[cr0wangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Padien wrote:<BR> <DIV>I play on Befallen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can tell you aren't a great tank because of the way people you even know treat you.  If people who know how you tank still measure up your gear to no comers, then they don't have full confidence in you, which means you lack something.  It doesn't mean you suck, but it does mean you aren't a stand out tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I first played this game, I played with my illusionist, Padian.  I also grouped with Hiro.  Everyone who ever grouped with Hiro regarded him as the best or close to it.  No one questioned his gear, no one cared what level he was.  He was the tank, period.  He earned respect from the players around him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Later I made a gnome zerker, Zanten.  Sometime in the early 20's I started grouping a lot and found myself well liked.  At first I just put together groups from random people.  As I grouped with them, I kept getting the same responses.  "Wow, this is an awesome group." proceeded by tells of people telling me I was a great tank and all sorts of things.  After a while I got a lot of tells of people who wanted to group with me.  From every healer I grouped with and many others.  Including people who I booted from the group because I didn't like a few of their behavior issues (and proceeded to beg me for a month to join up with me.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thing is, I wore a lot of green armor, I had low HP and was a gnome to begin with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>In the low levels it could work, I agree. But have green armor and low HP at level 50 and you get toasted. This is a fact, however cool you are, if you have bad gear you can't tank once you get high level.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> There are couple of other tanks I've seen who also get the same respect.  They do it because of their leadership and ability to perform the roles of tank.  Not because they have uber gear, although a good tank will usually find good gear along the way eventually.  They are respect because they are great tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But here is the thing.  Only about 5% of the tanks, if that, will get that sort of respect.  Most tanks just don't demonstrate exceptional abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dispite all your words, you only show that the people around you do not give you the respect a great tank will get.  You obviously aren't a great tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>I don't mean to be rude, but you keep going round in circles ignoring the many subtle hints people have left and you need the straight hard facts.  You aren't Great.</EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>Posting out loud on the public forum I am not a good tank is being rude. I don't believe I am not a good tank, I believe people with who I play with value more the numbers. Is not possible that some players are dumb and value only the gear? -sigh- (In a group this weekend, someone who always choose the tank for gear / HP told me: "you know I am healer, I am DPS", does that give you the idea?) Some players choose by gear only and this is dumb. They don't choose the right tank to the do job because they check the numbers only. You think their judgement is right and I am not great, however I think their judgement is wrong and show a lack of knowledge (healer are not DPS).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Pin StNeedl]

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> <P>cr0wangel wrote:<BR></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>In the low levels it could work, I agree. But have green armor and low HP at level 50 and you get toasted. This is a fact, however cool you are, if you have bad gear you can't tank once you get high level.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Actually, by the time you get high level, buffs, debuffs and heals play a much larger role than your gear in <U>most</U> situations - it's completely possible to tank all but a few encounters completely naked. Sure, it's not efficient and you'll make the rest of your group burn more power, but the point is a gnome zerker in green armour will do perfectly fine in <U>most</U> cases, as long as he knows what he's doing...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>(Actually, wasn't that the point of your original post? I think I missed where you changed your tune?)</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Posting out loud on the public forum I am not a good tank is being rude. I don't believe I am not a good tank, I believe people with who I play with value more the numbers. Is not possible that some players are dumb and value only the gear? -sigh- (In a group this weekend, someone who always choose the tank for gear / HP told me: "you know I am healer, I am DPS", does that give you the idea?) Some players choose by gear only and this is dumb. They don't choose the right tank to the do job because they check the numbers only. You think their judgement is right and I am not great, however I think their judgement is wrong and show a lack of knowledge (healer are not DPS).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>He didn't say you are "not a good tank" - he said "I can tell you aren't a great tank". There is a world of a difference between "not good" and "not great". I don't know what it is that you are lacking in this department (Padien gave some suggestions), but my guess is your friends tell you it's a choice based on gear / HP because that sounds nicer than "he tanks better than you".</FONT></P><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>But whatever the reason is, I'm sure that if you talk to your friends about it, they'd be happy to let you be the MT if that's what you want - and if they won't let you play how you want in the game then why are you playing? (or at least, why are you playing in that group?)</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

[Padi]

<DIV>CrowAngel,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You've been posting over and over about how people only value armor while we've given you the hint many times that people don't value armor only.  Many value the skill and leadership of the tank.  Dispite many examples given, displite reasoning with you for a page and a half, you still want to blame your problems on other people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know when things are close, the person with the better gear is picked, but when one tank clearly stands out better than the next in his ability to tank and run the group, he will be picked first.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like I said at the end of the last post.  I didn't come here to be rude, but your denial has to end somewhere, and I got tired of being nice and watch you fight it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And when I said "The thing is, I wore a lot of green armor, I had low HP and was a gnome to begin with."  That is past tense as the word "wore" suggests.  However, even at 50, I still have a piece or 2 of green armor and some older jewelery as well, but that still doesn't stop people who have grouped with me a few times to want me to be MT even when there is another level 50 guardian or zerker in full ebon armor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Absorbing damage is only part of the equation.  Fast pace, fast reflexes to get adds and general leadership skills to lessen the chance of dying are more important 95% of the time except on some raids.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Padien on <span class=date_text>07-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:20 AM</span>

[Golelo]

There is much tactic in hitting a taunt button. This is a gear based game.

[Padi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Golelorn wrote:<BR>There is much tactic in hitting a taunt button. This is a gear based game. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>On a raid, perhaps that's all that you have to do, but there is a lot more to being a good tank than hitting the taunt button.  Though it is funny that hitting that button seems very challenging to a lot of tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a tank you are responsible for keeping the flow of the group, making sure the healers have power, and pulling as fast as possible when they do.  You also have to find a path through a dungeon so that you don't get adds too often, and be very aware of possible adds to prevent problems.  You must also be quite aware when there is an add so you can taunt it.  Heck, there are a few cases when knowing not to taunt and let another member take a few hits so that the damage is spread around and the healers can keep you alive as needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mostly what makes a good tank good is his ability to lead and be aware.  On raids, maybe you are right, but not so on normal experience groups.  That or there are a lot of tanks who just don't know how to hit that taunt.</DIV>

[cr0wangel]

I believe, the best of the best is not needed to succeed in everquest, but people want the best because it make it easier, they want more than they need because they absolutly want to win (and this concern every classes not just tanks). In others words, I believe players in everquest use a bomb to squash a fly, because they want minimum risk and maximum rewards.<BR>

[cr0wangel]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pin StNeedles wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT color=#66ff00> if you talk to your friends about it, they'd be happy to let you be the MT if that's what you want - and if they won't let you play how you want in the game then why are you playing? (or at least, why are you playing in that group?)</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That's exactly what I am asking myself... I will try to group with new people, to see how it goes.</DIV>

[Korza]

<P>I will give you an example that might clear up a bit of this for the OP.</P> <P>Out on my trubador in TS in the other day with my ranger buddy. We start to form a group up. We pick the first tank we can find and grab a healer and wizzy.  We then procede to all meet up so we can start to hunt.</P> <P>When we meet up I did a double take on the tank. The tank was a paladin wearing..gasp leather armor! I was like what is the dude doing...So we go ahead with the hunting ( In my mind and as group leader I am already looking for another tank ). I asked the tank 3 times in tells if he realized he was wearing leather armor. No responce. We get into a few pulls and this guy couldn't hold aggro at all. And he got hit for a ton everytime the mobs did hit him. I was taking less damage from mob hits then he was. So did bad equipment equal a bad tank and bad player? Yes it did. We as a group adjusted. We started to split the pulls. We let the tank take one mob and the ranger would kite one and I would tank the last one or two mobs. It worked as we had a good healer but the job was harder on the healer. </P> <P>Soon I found another tank LFG. I invited that tank to group. Now that tank came in and had plate armor all store bought not crafted but atleast it was plate. He took over tanking and we moved over to giants doing the ^^ herioc giants with no problem. And the guy that was wearing leather stayed in the group and was a good secondary tank he warded the other tank at the right times and did other things well as an off tank through a heal or two out there and other things. The new tank that came in wasn't a great tank but was average could do his job and keep the mobs on him and pull and position said mob properly. He was not using everything he had to keep aggro effeciently but did keep it. And his pulls would bring extras at times as his situational awareness was not where it could have been. But for the healer not having to heal anyone else but him and he not taking tons of damage from every mob. Made the whole hunting time go more smoothly. Later when I asked him why he had not gotten crafted armor or even a few of the HQ pieces of armor he said he didn't know about HQ's and that he used most his money on skill upgrades. So was forced to buy cheap. I later hooked him up with an armor crafting friend of mine and he got some new armor that was better. </P> <P>So in this instance gear did make the tank. And this will generally be the case. But as you can see neither guy was kept from tanking but one was preferable to the other in both skill and gear. And had I gotten another friend of mine to get away from the crafting table and bring out his tank both would have been put on off tanking duty due to a better tank being around. Both in skill and equipment.</P> <P>Equipment of the right level will usally indicate someone that at the very least knows that good gear helps and the right gear even if it has to be cheap is better then the wrong kind of armor. And considering that is a basic knowledge anyone should pick will tend to indicate thier knowledge of the game as well.</P> <P>Another example I just thought of for you. A guild member of mine plays a paladin and I have a paladin, my paladin is about 2 levels higher then his. But he is full feysteel vs my feyiron. We both go out to help with Cove of decay for some guild members that need it. I defer to him and let him main tank. Even tho I have more hit points and few more abilities then he does. And most would rate me slight better skilled player then he is. But his mitigation is better then mine by along way with the full feysteel. And I know his skill is good enough for the fights we will have in here. So I let him MT. Why? Because it will be better for the group over all. He will require less healing from damage due to mitigation. And I know he can tank well enough for the situation at hand. </P> <P>Now a bit later we just go to start doing xp runs. Now I take over as tank for the reason his mitigation doesn't mean as much on mobs that are 4-5 levels over him. That level diffrence means more then the mitigation numbers as mobs closer to your level will do less damage then mobs further over your level. The mobs we were fighting where all red con to him but only orange yellow to me. So even tho he had higher mitigation the mob base damage on him was way higher then the mob base damage on me. He had no problem giving up main tanking to me at this point as I had no problem giving up to him before. </P> <P>Like I said we are pretty equally skilled so this work well doing the switching when needed and for what was best for the group in each situation. When you have never grouped with someone as far as you know both are equally skilled. So gear depending on what your doing will be a large factor. </P> <P>If all you want to do is be the MT in a group then your better off to form your own groups and build them up and don't invite any other tanks in or only ones lower level then you. This will not make you a great group leader but will atleast assure your the MT all the time. </P> <P>To be a great group leader you have to base your decisions on jobs based on both skill and equipment and that means sometimes you have to even give up your favored position to someone that is better for that situation.</P>

[DUNN]

<HR> <P> Golelorn wrote:<BR>There is much tactic in hitting a taunt button. This is a gear based game. </P> <P><BR> </P> <HR> <P>You should try being a SK and just hit that taunt button.  See what happens to your group then. "Gear based " lol you are funny LOL. </P> <p>Message Edited by DUNN on <span class=date_text>07-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:56 PM</span>

[Corosis]

It is sad that tanks are judged by thier gear if thier strangers, it's been going on for years in EQ1. Although I play a zerker now, and am often the chosen tank, I played a high elf paladin for the most part and was often not chosen as main tank till I eventually took over after about half an hour of off-tanking multiple mobs better than most tanks could keep one down. Once people get to know how someone plays, they will know who to pick as main tank without carring about gear quite as much. Tanking in my experiance is more about skill than about gear and class; sure a warrior gets more taunts, mitigration, and avoidance than say a shadowknight, but if the warrior is a putz then who wants him in charge of who lives and who dies? An extra heal on the sk may be worth more than the warrior having an extra 300hp and 5% mitigration. <div></div>