Proposal: How to fix Berserkers

[Kaberu]

<DIV>I just had an idea and I hope I get a general agreement out of this. The general idea is that it can make both Tanking Berserkers and DPS Berserkers happy at the same time. If we get enough support for this, perhaps we can bring it to Sony along with a long list of signed petitions so that it can be seriously considered. Forgive me if this has been suggested before:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><EM><U></U></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM><U>New Abliity</U></EM>: <STRONG>Berserker Aura</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would be a concentration buff. You click it on and click it off. Just like the Call abilities, this can ONLY be activated and deactivated out-of-combat for an important reason: so the player cannot take advantage of the two different combat modes during a fight. But what does it do?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>When activated</EM>: </DIV> <DIV>> It takes up a few concentration slots. I'd say 3 just to prevent as much concentration buff stacking as possible but still allowing such things as Vehemence.</DIV> <DIV>> The Berserker takes a SIGNIFICANT drop in Mitigation and/or other defensive skills. This would be a debuff to the point where we wouldn't tank any better than scouts.</DIV> <DIV>> The Berserker gets a SIGNIFICANT increase to STR, attack skills and/or overall damage output putting them close to being on par with scouts. Remember that scouts can't use all of their abilities from any angle, so some of them at least should still be able to out DPS us (at least against one or two targets) when they can consistantly backstab, flank or range as necessary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>Other possible side effects</EM>: </DIV> <DIV>> When deactivated, we lose a significant chunk of our power, possibly all of it signifying a need to rest after frenzying for so long. </DIV> <DIV>> Maybe it's not activatable if we are equiped with a shield (only usable with duals/2handers).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm asking a couple of things here, please sign this post if you agree and please post suggestions that you might see as needed. I can modify this post to reflect the general consesus and please modify your vote if you think it's changed to where you don't like it any more. The important part here is that Tanking Berserkers would never need to use this ability and can stay Tanks their entire career while DPS Berserkers can still have their fun with what they signed up for.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[WolfSha]

<P>You know i was thinking something similar today.  If the new combat changes mean tanks do signicantly less dps then we're gonna be in trouble for getting raid groups..  even normal groups might be more difficult.</P> <P>I'll add my "yes" to this, we could really use something like this.</P> <P>It shouldn't allow us to out dps scouts or anything silly or they'll (rightly) say "well we want a clickly 'turn me into a tank' mode", but it should perhaps allow us to come close.</P>

[Ralluw]

<div></div>I support your proposal, as I came to nearly the same conclusion in another thread with this post: <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=12591#M12591" target=_blank> http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=12591#M12591</a> On top of all this we still lack the utility skills scouts have (evac/running/sneak/track/etc); rather our utility (besides the group buffs we get now) would be our ability to change from being basically a guardian to basically a scout (for the purposes of the rest of this reply read scout as "all scout class except bards" since bards have little dps which is sacrificed for the massive utility of there songs) Additionally, repetition to make clear this point, we aren't asking to be equal in all regards to a guardian or scout in whatever situation, but that a well suited "defensive-type" berserker would be equivelent to a mediocrely equiped guardian and likewise a well armed "offensive-type" berserker would be equivelent to a mediocrely armed scout. Edit: link, spelling <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ralluwen on <span class=date_text>06-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:25 AM</span>

[Styk]

i like the whole idea except for one thing.... The Aura can only be used with 2Hand Weapons...... i was disappointed when berserkers werent a 2H only class like in eq1... <div></div>

[RexTenebrarum]

<DIV>I like the idea. I imagine it would please both the DPS orientated zerkers and the tank orientated zerkers :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Huna]

I like it, but it would never fly with the other classes.  <div></div>

[RexTenebrarum]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hunadi wrote:<BR>I like it, but it would never fly with the other classes. <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>If they do it right it just might.. a bit like the necro's/conjurer's in Moorguard's post.. with tanking pet they are in group 3 , with dmg pet in group 2.. </DIV> <DIV>Could be the same for zerkers but except for a pet we'd use the aura <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV>

[kr8ztwin]

yeah it would be great but it would never go in.  People would just be [Removed for Content] that they don't have a class with dualality.  I ,perosnally,  would prefer to go straight to wearing light armor and only be able to use 2H weapons than lose my DPS.  I do not understand why a warrior type class has no option but to only tank.  People say that if you wanna lose mitigation and do DPS that you should just make a pred but thats a totally different playing style and class.  I wanna scream loud and hit hard dangit.  Oh well....I guess we can only just wait and see.  I might just make a Brigand Ogre with a 1H sword and pretend I'm a zerker.

[Sokolov]

I just wish Concentration was used for SOMETHING.  None of the skills that use concentration currently are significant enough that I actually would care about which to cast.  But wait.. i always have more than enough concentration anyway!

[Wrathcast]

<DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#000000><FONT color=#ffffff>Not a bad idea. Any way to keep the DPS (while not tanking) might save the mass exodus threatened by the Berserker world.  I also agree that it should only be used with duals or 2h weapons. I don't like the idea of no power, it would [Removed for Content] our specials and take us out of the HO ring. But the loss of Mitigation and/or other defensive skills sounds fair. We still have no utility so its not like we would be taking away from the scout class.  </FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Sign me up :smileyhappy: </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#000000></FONT></SPAN> </P></DIV>

[Gaige]

<P>So you wouldn't feel slighted if scouts then got a concentration buff raising their hp/mitigation/defense/avoidance/aggro levels to that of a zerker?</P> <P>Since when should a class get a switch that goes from scout to fighter?</P>

[CherobylJ]

To be honest while your idea sounds cool, in my opinion there isnt anything "broken" with Bers atm...its a very playable class with a great deal of flexibility.  I have to agree with what Gage just pointed out, that adding something like this might just start an arms race war with other classes.

[Kaberu]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CherobylJoe wrote:<BR>To be honest while your idea sounds cool, in my opinion there isnt anything "broken" with Bers atm...its a very playable class with a great deal of flexibility.  I have to agree with what Gage just pointed out, that adding something like this might just start an arms race war with other classes. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>With the one problem being that scouts were never described as being able to take their hits too. Berserkers have been and still are described as more a DPS class and I'm sure that anyone who was following this game since the beginning or before can tell you that fighters were suppose to be the primary melee-DPS class. Sure, the scouts had their opportunistic damage along with a large utility and such but they were not meant to be the high DPS hands down.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>A scout can evac, track, disarm, pathfind (group SoW), sneak, as well as debuff (far better than fighters) and with bards, insanely buff ... does that sound like a class that focuses on combat?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV>The only real info describing fighters as pure tanks comes from the forums and is generally perpetuated by old school gamers (particularly from EQ1). What do Berserkers have that is useful outside of combat? Fighters mostly just take damage and deal damage. Warriors focus solely on taking damage and dealing damage. Guardians focus on taking damage, Berserkers focus on dealing damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That was always the split as described by Sony and it still is on the official sites. Again you can refer to the forums as all the information you need to show otherwise but I'd like to point out Sony's own standpoint on this from the fingers of Faarwolf:</DIV> <DIV> <P>"<EM>1.  Forum posters represent a very small minority of players, and are not an accurate depiction of general player opinion</EM>."</P> <P>If they know this, then there should be (at the very least) a much larger concerted effort to inform the player base of large scale game changes. I certainly don't remember an in-game poll asking me what I think of Berserkers, DPS and so on. Maybe they go off the Test players.. that certainly isn't a majority of players either. More importantly, the only information I am aware of that indicates scouts as needed more DPS over fighters comes from these forums which as stated, represents a ver small minority of players.</P> <P>One thing I'd certainly like to see are NPC trainers that help players realize their potential for their respective classes. Maybe if the majority of players were a little more aware of how to play their class (ex: get behind the mob to backstab), and when their class can reach full potential (ex: warlocks need long fights to build up DPS), they wouldn't see such large deviances in design.</P> <P> </P></DIV>

[Gaige]

<P>In early, early beta fighters did do the most damage.  Scouts didn't like that, and the official stance from SOE was changed, and now fighters are tanks and scouts are melee dps.</P> <P>There isn't anything you guys can say to change it, but feel free to keep complaining if it makes you feel better.</P> <P>The fact that scouts can't tank, means fighters can't damage as well as scouts.</P> <P>The entire game hinges on balances such as those.</P>

[Sabin the Gre]

<P>Quiet frankly I don't believe we will be impotent post patch.  I have a feeling that a few skills are going to get some serious nerfage (Anarchy probably likely), but unless they change the proc'ing equation I think we'll still be able to do some very nice damage.   The reason for this is because none of our skills do a truly massive amount of damage by themselves (with exception of vanquish).  It's the synergies between our skills, coupled with the current proc equation that generates the majority of our damage.  That being said, berserkers survived otherr supposed catastrophic nerfs (rampage nerf 1 and 2, as well as changing our procs to direct damage) and a good group of us have still annihilated other melee classes.  So don't turn in your berserker helm just yet guys and gals, I'm not going to go without alittle kicking and screaming. </P> <P> </P> <P>Now for a quick tidbit on what I think a large part of the DPS disparity has to do with:</P> <P>I think the reason that alot of people [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about the damage classes being so out of wack is b/c most people don't know how to play their class optimally.  While I know this isn't the case in all situations (I've been praying for the poor Wizard and Necro), it's very true for classes that require positioning and switching between skills/weapons.  Their are no positioning issues with a berserker and no attacks have to be launced from a range, etc.    So people see berserkers as being damage monsters b/c its easy to mash combat arts and do good damage with them (face it its the truth).  Let me give some examples for the difference learning to use your skills can make.  I've seen a Assasin go from doing 200 - 350 dps (in raids) in a matter of weeks by simply realizing how to play his class better.  I've seen 2x swashbucklers in my guild go from 125-150 dps to 225-300+ dps (in raids) in a week and a half by upgrading spells and learning to use ALL their skills.   I've also seen a Wizard parse out around 225-250+ dps while another was doing 100-125 (in raids again).  While I'm not so naive as to believe the classes are all balanced and don't need twinking, people shouldn't throw that crap out about how their class sucks so bad and they'll be so much better post patch. </P> <P> </P>

[Buggrit]

<DIV>great scenario</DIV> <DIV>Berserkers get changed to light armour and all dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>group needs one spot</DIV> <DIV>leader: ok guys we need a tank</DIV> <DIV>random group member1: ok i know my  Berserker friends on lets ask him to join</DIV> <DIV>rest of group: ok cool</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserker joins</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>all say: welcome ok ur tanking</DIV> <DIV>berserker: sorry guys im all light armour now just dps i can't tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserker gets booted</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserker says: [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]? why did i get kicked</DIV> <DIV>leader says: sorry dude we need a tank we got DPS *points to scout and wizzy*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berseker: /sighs and logs off</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>my point is yes i don't know about raids but i hardly see them getting rid of are heavy plate armour and making us all DPS for about 20-30 Berserkers that are not happy because there apparently going to suck in raids  but please continue to keep complaining its funny to watch u act like a bunch of children</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>oh and ethelwolf if u read this u don't have a clue what ur don't have a clue what ur talking about at all </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>btw if any of you have rude/stupid comments for me that u can't put on the board send me a tell Darkann on kithcor server kthx</DIV>

[Ravendarth]

<P>I guess I am kinda unique in that among my toons I have a Zerker, Guardian, Wizard, Paladin, Templar, Fury and Swashbuckler. I try to regularly read most of these boards. You would really be amazed how little people know about the other archtypes. People speak in broad generalities when it comes to DPS, tanking ability, etc. On average I would think that maybe 40% at best of these claims are even partially true.</P> <P>The other thing that always amazes me is how little is really known about the "huge" damage that scouts do. A full third of my combat arts are meant to be used from a flanking or rear position. Hence if I am soloing or am in a less than full group (read without a fighter archtype) I loss the use of these abilities (which include most of my highest damage attacks). On top of that, in most fights, a full 60% of my DPS comes from poisons. Yet SOE considers this "bought DPS" as part of my total when all other archtypes do not have to spend a single copper on their DPS. I have no issue with this as I understood this going in. What I have a issue with is then fighter types complaining that scouts do too much damage.</P> <P>Another thing to keep in mind is that any changes to PCs are always mirrored in NPCs in the game. After all, all their abilities/DPS come from the same lists as ours. That being said the idea of this Beserker Aura has to be one of the best I have seen come from the boards. I would hope the Devs give that some very serious consideration. That would indeed be a very nice addition to not only the combat arts of a zerker but also the feel of the class as a whole. Kudos !!! It is really nice to see someone present a well thought out idea that I feel would really add to the game.</P><p>Message Edited by sharpealec on <span class=date_text>06-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:15 PM</span>

[RexTenebrarum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Buggrit wrote:<BR> <DIV>great scenario</DIV> <DIV>Berserkers get changed to light armour and all dps</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>group needs one spot</DIV> <DIV>leader: ok guys we need a tank</DIV> <DIV>random group member1: ok i know my  Berserker friends on lets ask him to join</DIV> <DIV>rest of group: ok cool</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserker joins</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>all say: welcome ok ur tanking</DIV> <DIV>berserker: sorry guys im all light armour now just dps i can't tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserker gets booted</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserker says: [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]? why did i get kicked</DIV> <DIV>leader says: sorry dude we need a tank we got DPS *points to scout and wizzy*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berseker: /sighs and logs off</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>my point is yes i don't know about raids but i hardly see them getting rid of are heavy plate armour and making us all DPS for about 20-30 Berserkers that are not happy because there apparently going to suck in raids  but please continue to keep complaining its funny to watch u act like a bunch of children</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>oh and ethelwolf if u read this u don't have a clue what ur don't have a clue what ur talking about at all</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>btw if any of you have rude/stupid comments for me that u can't put on the board send me a tell Darkann on kithcor server kthx</DIV> <P><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Please read the OP before commenting, there isn't any talk about switching to Light Armour, what he did suggest is an ability that can be turned off or on, which would lower significantly our tanking abilities but raise our DPS.. so your little story doesn't quite stick..</P> <P>And where did you get those 20-30 berserkers figures ?  I talked to a lot of people on my server (not only zerkers) about the upcoming changes, and it's true quite a few of them say they have to see first how it's going to impact them, but also a lot weren't happy.. I'm not saying they plan on leaving but I think if you put a % sign after your figures you wouldn't be far from the truth about people not being happy.</P> <P>And please don't tell people they don't know their class and don't know what they are talking about . Some of them have been around a lot longer then you. I play a bruiser also (higher lvl even then your main), but you won't hear me saying to somebody who has played a bruiser  since day 1 that he/she doesn't know his/her class.. It's fine to have an opinion but telling people they don't know their class gets you nowhere..it just show your level of maturity..</P> <P>I'm not saying lower levels can't bring an added value to the discussion or come up with great ideas, because they can and do. They just don't act in the way you do..</P> <P> </P> <P><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <p>Message Edited by RexTenebrarum on <span class=date_text>06-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:55 PM</span>

[RexTenebrarum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <P>So you wouldn't feel slighted if scouts then got a concentration buff raising their hp/mitigation/defense/avoidance/aggro levels to that of a zerker?</P> <P>Since when should a class get a switch that goes from scout to fighter?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I see your point here, but to be honest I wouldn't mind seeing such a thing for all classes. Also you are comparing a complete class (scouts) with 1 subclass (zerker) .. I don't think we should be put in the tier1 group with sorcs/preds but rather in tier2 while using the aura.. So that would put a pred in tier3 if he decided to tank for a group.. but he would also loose his ability to use poisons and dual wield for example..</DIV> <DIV>I still think this is a great idea.. and it would be refreshing and add to the lifespan of the game.. sooner or later they WILL come up with one system or another that allows something along these lines..a year ago (even a month ago) they said there would be no AA in the game, now (after Fan faire) they say AA may be a possibility (or at least that they are thinking about it)..</DIV> <DIV>I don't know what will happen, but if they want EQ2 to last as long as EQlive they need to come up with something..this game has potential (lots of it) but with all the competition coming out in the next couple of months (DDO, Vanguard, .. ) they need to start turning that potential into something visible.. and frankly, nerfs and balancing alone are not going to cut it.. but that's just my opinion <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Somebody else has already pointed this out in another thread, but the whole archtype/class  system is flawed.. it just pushes people too much in a little role box... the little diversity we had at the beginning is slowly being 'balanced' away.. and personally I don't like being forced in a box.. I like to have choices and options.. but again.. that's just me..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is in no way a rant against you Gage. I just replied to one thing you said and kinda continued from there with different ideas <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take care</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>:edit: Didn't want to start another post, so added a few more things</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by RexTenebrarum on <SPAN class=date_text>06-29-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:30 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by RexTenebrarum on <span class=date_text>06-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:38 PM</span>

[Buggrit]

i did read it for the comment wasn't for him other people in this post and others said they wou;ldn't mind dropping heavy armour for DPS so they'd have something to do for raids <div></div>

[RexTenebrarum]

<P>I'm one of those people telling I'd drop my armour to keep my dps, but it's not for raiding because during raids I can hardly ever spam my attacks and go full out on the main mob (only on adds when I'm MA).. because when I do, I'm 100% sure the mobs turns away from the MT and starts hitting me. And even though our Guardian takes aggro back very quickly, that 1-2 second timespan in which the mob turns towards me , some people who  are standing next to me (all melee classes) might get riposted and die.. and that's not something you want to happen <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  ). So I tone down my dmg output on raids..</P> <P>The reason I want my DPS and don't mind wearing lighter armour is for normal grouping.. armour doesn't really matter that much in that situation, but DPS does..</P> <P>Take care</P> <P> </P>

[Ru]

I do like the aura idea. However, if we can get away with no changes, I'd like that too. Personally, I don't feel uber, but I don't really feel [Removed for Content] either. Sure, I'd like to get some utility stuff like... well... all the other fighters (save Guardians), but... I'm happy the way things are now. Berserkers do not need more defense. We are fine now, and outside of raides, we can tank just fine. That, and we are supposed to be the offense side of the warrior coin. And, we don't need more offense. Scouts are suppose to be bigger DPS. We don't need to infringe on that ground. But, as far as fighters go, we should be in the middle. I feel sorry for monks. They do get a lot of cool utility stuff, and heals, and high avoidance. But, when they get hit, they get hit hard. So, I don't feel bad at all about them doing more damage. The way I see berserkers now, and would like to continue seeing them is, a good, all around class. We can tank well and  we can pass as DPS. Now, I don't mean to be rude here, but, for those that think Berserkers should be better tanks, role a Guardian or Paladin. If you think we should encroach on scoutdom, make a monk, bruiser, or scout. That being said... we don't really have a lot going for us oterwise. We can fill many roles, but, aren't the best at anything. We don't get any of the things other fighters get, like evac, heals, feign death, or safe fall. So, before Sony things about nerfing us, maybe they should give us something worth nerfing. <div></div>

[Buggrit]

Im sorry but if u want to wear light armour while doing high damage and still being a fighter class just make a freaking monk or Bruiser <div></div>

[Daran]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<p>So you wouldn't feel slighted if scouts then got a concentration buff raising their hp/mitigation/defense/avoidance/aggro levels to that of a zerker?</p> <p>Since when should a class get a switch that goes from scout to fighter?</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote></span>I could see it for Brigands (can't really say Swashies cause I dont play one) In small groups I can actually do the tank job surprisingly well, and to my knowledge Rogues are the only one of the Scouts with actual taunt abilities. For instance, Ability: Cuss, only thing it does is increase hate for the brigand by XXX points, and also maddening shot, its the only ranged CA they get and it launches 2 arrows that do high damage with "Increase hate by 300" or something like that. And the high damage attack they get, the front positional attack Ruse, also has associated with it "Increase Threat position by 1" That being said, I'd have to vote Monks and bruisers getting a clicky ability to switch from offense to defense before a berserker. It just makes more sense to me since they rely on stances and attention to avoid being beat up (in theory anyway) so the fighting style when they dont have to worry about being hit would change most significantly. <div></div>

[Gaige]

<P>I guess another way to put it is:  Why not have 4 skills, that take concentration, and when used give you the abilities of another archetype.  Because that is really what you are asking.</P> <P>Aura:  DPS like a scout.</P> <P>Normal: Tank like a zerker.</P> <P>Healer:  Heal like a priest</P> <P>Caster:  Nuke like a caster.</P> <P>It just does away with having to make subclass choices for the playstyle you want to have a buff that allows you to do another classes job.</P> <P>I think its a horrible idea, but that's just me.</P>

[Kaberu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <P>I guess another way to put it is:  Why not have 4 skills, that take concentration, and when used give you the abilities of another archetype.  Because that is really what you are asking.</P> <P>Aura:  DPS like a scout.</P> <P>Normal: Tank like a zerker.</P> <P>Healer:  Heal like a priest</P> <P>Caster:  Nuke like a caster.</P> <P>It just does away with having to make subclass choices for the playstyle you want to have a buff that allows you to do another classes job.</P> <P>I think its a horrible idea, but that's just me.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The thing is, Berserkers were always described as having abilities that lower their defense for increased offense. Originally I think this was suppose to be the berserk effect, but they never had the decreased defense applied.</P> <P>If Sony INSISTS on upping our defense and lowering our damage output (or at least bringing us more on par with Guardians), then it would at least be nice if they threw a bone to us players that played a Berserker for the reasons that Berserkers were around. As of right now (before any changes) we seem pretty close to that for the most part. The problem is that it appears we are being too closely paired with the Guardian. It was laid out like this:</P> <P>Warrior - base; middle ground</P> <P>Guardian - diverges from Warrior by focusing on defense</P> <P>Berserker - diverges from Warrior by focusing on offense</P> <P>With the upcoming changes, a Guardian that focus on damage will outdamage a Berserker that focuses on defense. What they don't state (and we must assume) is that a Berserker that focuses on defense should out tank a Guardian that focuses on damage. Lets hope this is true anyway. </P> <P>In theory though, the Guardian (who's skill set is defense oriented) that focuses on damage should balance himself out and bring him back towards the center to equal the Berserker (who's skill set is offense oriented) that focused on defense. Essentially, they should both bring themselves to the center where their core Warrior abilities reside.</P> <P>Lumping Berserkers and Guardians by saying, "well they're both warriors anyway" defeats the purpose of having seperate classes in the first place.</P> <P> </P>

[RexTenebrarum]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <P>I guess another way to put it is:  Why not have 4 skills, that take concentration, and when used give you the abilities of another archetype.  Because that is really what you are asking.</P> <P>Aura:  DPS like a scout.</P> <P>Normal: Tank like a zerker.</P> <P>Healer:  Heal like a priest</P> <P>Caster:  Nuke like a caster.</P> <P>It just does away with having to make subclass choices for the playstyle you want to have a buff that allows you to do another classes job.</P> <P>I think its a horrible idea, but that's just me.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Gage please...your personal crusade against zerkers and anything that is proposed for them is getting real tiresome.. where do you see berserkers ask for a heal or nuke switch? The OP just came up with an idea to cater for all zerkers. Some people choose a zerker because they would be able to tank while dealing ok dmg. Other people choose a zerker because the description said we would be able to dish out dmg. Maybe SOE should just rename the berserker subclass because the way we are going is nowhere near a berserker. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And why would I need to choose a backstabber :smileywink: when I want to do DPS.. I want to do it from the front and up close.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One thing I would like to know though is how Sony intends of calculating the DPS.. is it while soloing? while grouped? This could mean a big difference because scout classes could never unleash there full DPS potential when soloing (same as sorcs, now that they have their roots reduced).. only when they can use all their sneak/positional attacks are they able to reach their full DPS potential (which is fine by me btw..)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gage, you are in one of the guilds that are copied over to test I think.. once the full combat changes are in effect on test, will you come here and tell us about them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Take care</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RexTenebrarum wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gage, you are in one of the guilds that are copied over to test I think.. once the full combat changes are in effect on test, will you come here and tell us about them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We have a few zerkers, so maybe they will.</P> <P>I'm not against zerkers at all, I have good friends in game that are zerkers, I just think you guys need to be more realistic about your tradeoffs, since you are the second best tank in the game.<BR></P>

[Ralluw]

**warning, this turns into a semi-rant, I usually just hit back and don't post a message when this happens, but I am going to this time** Ok, the big problem isn't what we were sold on, or originally intended to be, ect. The big problem is what we are now versus what we won't be in the future. We can be DPS now, we can Tank now, heck we can even do both half decently at the same. So right now we can do one or the other, this is what the berserker is, this is what we have become and what we expect now of an EQ2 berserker, but now we are told we have to be a tank, after we spent all this time to get to 50 and make our characters what we want, we have to fit one role out of the two we could fit. I guess the thing that hurts is just that rerolling would really be a pain for me, I now have invested several platinum into this character that I cannot get back since I can't sell my armor or unscribe my adept III's, am a guild patron and am not willing to add another patron and stop contributing status to level up a new char.  And now I am faced with the delemia of continueing to sink money into a class I won't be happy with, or starting all over hoping my next choice won't result in the same thing. I choose a zerker because I thought it would be like a Dark Knight from FFXI, use big weapons to do big damage, not the absolute best, I understood that, but better then most considering the lack of utility and the general concept. Because we are often considered tanks I haven't grouped much and was happy I could solo well and contribute to a raid w/o tanking, now that this is being forced upon me as the only role I can efficiently fill I feel like I should cut my losses now. And the most annoying thing is I have no idea if that is even a good idea, what if the whole combat thing isn't how it sounds and suddenly zerkers are decent dps and I have wasted time making a new character when I could have been doing writs, more quests, ect. .../sigh, whatever <div></div>

[bathory610]

hehe gage its samoth, u changed to foh! i mean i havent played in forever but still read up everyonce and awhile, your kinda a celebrity on these forums lol.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> bathory610 wrote:<BR><BR>hehe gage its samoth, u changed to foh! i mean i havent played in forever but still read up everyonce and awhile, your kinda a celebrity on these forums lol.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Hey man what's up <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[bathory610]

dont mean to hijack the thread but ill tell ledard and enoch u said hi fer kix, maybe its the everclear kickin in but i remember when we were all newbs !!!!

[Styk]

[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is your problem Gage? Oh wait i forgot, your a monk and you arent really getting nerfed in these combat changes since your avoidance tanking will be addressed and yet you will still have good dps.... People were being creative and wanted to throw out some ideas on maybe giving a berserker a role.... You comming on here and posting just makes you look like an idiot.............. I always thought you were a sensable person until this.... but then again i should have expected it from a person who has no life an loves to pad his post count..... <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR>[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is your problem Gage? Oh wait i forgot, your a monk and you arent really getting nerfed in these combat changes since your avoidance tanking will be addressed and yet you will still have good dps....<BR><BR>People were being creative and wanted to throw out some ideas on maybe giving a berserker a role....<BR><BR>You comming on here and posting just makes you look like an idiot.............. <BR><BR>I always thought you were a sensable person until this.... but then again i should have expected it from a person who has no life an loves to pad his post count..... <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>HAHAHAHAHA!</P> <P>You think <EM>we</EM> aren't getting changed?  Yeah right.  Trust me I'm more worried than you guys are about the combat and spell changes.  What has happened in 7 months to make me think SOE knows how to code avoidance?  Nothing.  Besides, we stand to lose a lot more than you, and I'm sure you know that.</P> <P>Your class is the second best tank in the game, same mitigation as guardians and probably the best aggro production.  Even if they nerf your DPS to guardian level (they won't) you'd still be able to tank everything in this game that a guardian can after the broken defense/hp stacking is fixed.</P> <P>But us...  we'll always have sucky mitigation, we'll also have lower hp, we'll always wear light armor... etc.  *IF* they do not actually give us workable defense when they take our DPS, we're pretty screwed.</P> <P>Now I'm not saying that they'll ruin my class, but I'm saying monks/bruisers are in a pretty tight spot, thank you very much.</P> <P>That said I also realize that being able to tank (routine group mobs) from 1 to 50 while scouts can't, and then damaging as good or better than scouts is broken, and needs to be fixed.  I'm not going to sit here and act like our damage isn't at least a little bit over powered just because I'm afraid of how the changes will play out, because for all of my friends who play scouts sake, the changes need to be made.  Fair is fair, and the general rule in this game is that you gain dps when you sacrifice defense.</P> <P>I understand people were being creative, and I was commenting on their ideas, because this is a message forum by the way.  I think a "switch" or "buff" that moves you from substantial tanking to substantial dps is probably a little broken, if only because you shouldn't outdamage us, let alone scouts.  Which is why I made the example of scouts getting a switch to go from tanks to dps.  If its good for one class, it should be good for all of them.</P> <P>As for making myself look like an idiot... opinions vary I suppose, but you are certainly intitled to yours.</P> <P>As for the insult, you know I always thought you were better than that.  I doubt you can reasonably assume anything about the status of my irl life by my posts or my post count.  If you can you are probably a lot more insightful than most people I suppose.  Besides, ever see the NGD forum?  Plenty of game posts in there if I feel like padding my post count sir, and in there I don't have to try to make sense or type near as much.</P> <P>But thank you for once again taking time out of your day to address me.  I feel privelaged that so many of you posters express such animosity towards me but yet take the time to post in my direction, so often.</P> <P>If anything, I should blame posts like yours for padding my post count, as my pet peeve is certainly trying to have the last word <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Huna]

So, what ideas do you have for berserkers gage?  Other than trying to shoot down others ideas, I haven't seen you contribute much positive here lately.  If you look at the descriptions of the classes, I think Berserkers should have better dps than monks.  Monks are the defensive of their tree, and berserkers are the offensive of their tree.  So, you want to have the same defensive capabilities as berserkers, but you should have better dps?  why?  And don't even bring up the fact that berserkers are the 2nd best tank, because we are talking about after the combat changes.  The order of tanks right now means nothing, they are supposed to be correcting stuff, and putting us in the right order.  Almost every argument I see about why berserkers shouldn't have good dps after the combat changes, is because we are the 2nd best tank before the combat changes.  Why can't we have skills that lower our defense and increase our dps?  it fits our class description.  Why is it that every other class thinks their class should be boosted to match the description sony gave, but berserkers shouldn't because it would be unfair to everyone else?  What's unfair is that after the combat changes, some classes will match their description and others won't. Besides, there is already a class that will have the ability to switch from a dps mode to a tank mode, granted they are more in the middle of the pack for both.  But if they can do it, why can't berserkers switch from tank mode to dps mode and move up the ranks a bit?  Not past the scouts, but why not past all of the fighters? Again, read the descriptions of the classes. <div></div>

[Ralluw]

<div></div><div></div>Honestly I think they should abandon the "archetype definitions" as they are stiffling alot of classes potential.  Enchanters want DPS because they are mages, and mages get DPS, but to be honest I think they would be far happier if they weren't DPS at all but got useful CC abilities, debuffs and buffs that didn't require half there concentration (i mean player concentration at that).  Meanwhile you have Berserkers, who are to be made tanks, because they are fighters and all fighters are tanks and scouts who can't tank at all, because scouts can't be tanks by definition.I really would actually love to see more duality in the classes, where a berserker could be decent DPS (although easily out done by the top half of mage and scouts) OR a pretty good tank (but not the absolute best)  Perhaps Berserkers and Brusiers giving up there defenses could reach as hIgh in DPS as say an average Brigand, and maybe a Brigand, giving up a significant protion of his DPS could be as good a tank as an average Berserker or Bruiser could be.  Maybe an Inquisitor neglecting healing could be as good as CC as an average coercer should be, and a coercer giving up CC could be as good a DPS as a the average summoner, etc...  Maybe this is actually how it is going to be.Why does there need to be 25% of the classes dedicated to such a small role as tanking?  Honestly on a raid you need 2 tanks at best, 4 healers and an enchanter and a bunch of DPS, heck some raids you can use 1 tank, 2 healers and just DPS if you are good.  Maybe there are raids I haven't encountered yet that require lots of tanks but there are more tank classes then there needs to be, especially in a raid when you really only need 1 and Berserkers are gonna be pretty much the worst tanks among the tanks meanng it is highly likely a Berserker won't be a tank.The problem is we don't know what is gonna happen, but we know what we don't want to happen, that we become a useless class.  Alot of the worries aren't because we think we know what is going to happen, but because we have no clue at all, the damage classes or whatever thing that was made is vague and about as useful as a dictionary definition is to assembling a nuclear reactor.We feel like Pippin said in the Lord of the Rings "I don't want to be in a battle. But waiting on the edge of one I can't escape is even worse."  We don't want to change, but are willing to because we must, the worse part is that this has been drug out so long and we still have no idea at all if we are going to fit the roll we want of our class.  And not just Berserkers, every class is still in the dark and as such can only complain about there percieved conclusion (which is worst case due to shell shock from all the bugs, nerfs and stealth nerfs) of this change because they have no solid information on the changes so as to make suggestions that are actually meaningful and informative. Edit: some structure changes<font color="#ffffff"><b><font face="Arial" size="-1"><span></span></font></b></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Ralluwen on <span class=date_text>07-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:50 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Hunadi wrote:<BR>So, what ideas do you have for berserkers gage?  Other than trying to shoot down others ideas, I haven't seen you contribute much positive here lately.  <FONT color=#ffff00>I'm not necessarily being negative either.</FONT><BR><BR>If you look at the descriptions of the classes, I think Berserkers should have better dps than monks.  Monks are the defensive of their tree, and berserkers are the offensive of their tree.  So, you want to have the same defensive capabilities as berserkers, but you should have better dps?  why?  And don't even bring up the fact that berserkers are the 2nd best tank, because we are talking about after the combat changes.  The order of tanks right now means nothing, they are supposed to be correcting stuff, and putting us in the right order.  Almost every argument I see about why berserkers shouldn't have good dps after the combat changes, is because we are the 2nd best tank before the combat changes.  Why can't we have skills that lower our defense and increase our dps?  it fits our class description.  Why is it that every other class thinks their class should be boosted to match the description sony gave, but berserkers shouldn't because it would be unfair to everyone else?  What's unfair is that after the combat changes, some classes will match their description and others won't.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Your validity dropped to almost nothing when you said you think your class, as a heavy armor, high mitigation, huge aggro class, should outdamage us.  I see you keep bringing up the lore description of your class, would you like me to find the post from Moorgard, in this very forum, where he said those descriptions were more about flavor and roleplaying, than game mechanics?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>We are defensive yes, defensive brawlers, where bruisers are offensive.  But even as a defensive brawler we are more offensive than all 4 of the heavy armor tanks, period.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Even after the combat changes I assure you that you'll be the second best tank in the game, because you are a warrior.  Not a hybrid like the other 4 tanks.  You'll simply be able to outdamage guardians by about the same gap as they can tank better than you, but as Moorgard set how people setup and play their toon will make a difference after the changes.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>GET OVER THE DESCRIPTION, ITS FLUFF, LORE AND ROLEPLAYING.  It isn't what the classes will be balanced by.</FONT><BR><BR>Besides, there is already a class that will have the ability to switch from a dps mode to a tank mode, granted they are more in the middle of the pack for both.  But if they can do it, why can't berserkers switch from tank mode to dps mode and move up the ranks a bit?  Not past the scouts, but why not past all of the fighters? Again, read the descriptions of the classes.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Again, descriptions mean nothing as far as game mechanics or gameplay balance.  The simple reason is:  We give up more defense than you, so we (the bruiser/monk subclasses) will outdamage you, because in general terms dps is gained when defense is given.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Your class is already overpowered, and if after the combat changes you think having a tower shield, heavy armor, the ability to wield every weapon in this game and uncanny aggro generation warrants you the ability to outdamage us monks/bruisers... well then you'd almost certainly be overpowered.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I am one of the biggest proponents of sacrifices from my class to gain what I feel we need.  I'm on no crusade to be overpowered... but it looks like someone is.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh yeah, and I never said I wanted to be as defensive as a berserker, you assumed that.  I already know that we won't be.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>07-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:55 AM</span>

[Daran]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <p></p> <hr> <p>Hunadi wrote:So, what ideas do you have for berserkers gage?  Other than trying to shoot down others ideas, I haven't seen you contribute much positive here lately.  <font color="#ffff00">I'm not necessarily being negative either.</font>If you look at the descriptions of the classes, I think Berserkers should have better dps than monks.  Monks are the defensive of their tree, and berserkers are the offensive of their tree.  So, you want to have the same defensive capabilities as berserkers, but you should have better dps?  why?  And don't even bring up the fact that berserkers are the 2nd best tank, because we are talking about after the combat changes.  The order of tanks right now means nothing, they are supposed to be correcting stuff, and putting us in the right order.  Almost every argument I see about why berserkers shouldn't have good dps after the combat changes, is because we are the 2nd best tank before the combat changes.  Why can't we have skills that lower our defense and increase our dps?  it fits our class description.  Why is it that every other class thinks their class should be boosted to match the description sony gave, but berserkers shouldn't because it would be unfair to everyone else?  What's unfair is that after the combat changes, some classes will match their description and others won't.  <font color="#ffff00">Your validity dropped to almost nothing when you said you think your class, as a heavy armor, high mitigation, huge aggro class, should outdamage us.  I see you keep bringing up the lore description of your class, would you like me to find the post from Moorgard, in this very forum, where he said those descriptions were more about flavor and roleplaying, than game mechanics?</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ff0000">We are defensive yes, defensive brawlers, where bruisers are offensive</font>.  But even as a defensive brawler we are more offensive than all 4 of the heavy armor tanks, period.</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Even after the combat changes I assure you that you'll be the second best tank in the game, because you are a warrior.  Not a hybrid like the other 4 tanks.  You'll simply be able to outdamage guardians by about the same gap as they can tank better than you, but as Moorgard set how people setup and play their toon will make a difference after the changes.</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">GET OVER THE DESCRIPTION, ITS FLUFF, LORE AND ROLEPLAYING.  It isn't what the classes will be balanced by.</font>Besides, there is already a class that will have the ability to switch from a dps mode to a tank mode, granted they are more in the middle of the pack for both.  But if they can do it, why can't berserkers switch from tank mode to dps mode and move up the ranks a bit?  Not past the scouts, but why not past all of the fighters? Again, read the descriptions of the classes.  <font color="#ffff00">Again, descriptions mean nothing as far as game mechanics or gameplay balance.  The simple reason is:  We give up more defense than you, so we (the bruiser/monk subclasses) will outdamage you, because in general terms dps is gained when defense is given.</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Your class is already overpowered, and if after the combat changes you think having a tower shield, heavy armor, the ability to wield every weapon in this game and uncanny aggro generation warrants you the ability to outdamage us monks/bruisers... well then you'd almost certainly be overpowered.</font></p> <hr> </blockquote>I am one of the biggest proponents of sacrifices from my class to gain what I feel we need.  I'm on no crusade to be overpowered... but it looks like someone is. <div> </div> <div>Oh yeah, and I never said I wanted to be as defensive as a berserker, you assumed that.  I already know that we won't be.</div><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class="date_text">07-01-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:55 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Don't worry Gage, I've always found you offensive...... I'm kidding Gage....please put the bat down.</span><div></div>

[Styk]

You know what Gage you like to say that we should get over the Description of our class because it was only for Lore and Fluff........ Your a fool, it was for marketing each class on how the "dreamed" it would be, look at the skill set for a berserker, it has dps written all over it, proc based attacks, counter attack buff etc etc, you cant say Berserkers weren't built for dps tanking ( at least they made a half [Removed for Content].e.d attempt in making a berserker compared to the debacle that was eq1 berserker {  yes i had a lvl 70 Zerker as well, we didnt know if we were dps or a tank , that is how scrwed up they were }  )  what was that you say again? class descriptions were only for FLUFF AND LORE ? Goodness at least McQuaid and Team making Vanguard aren't lying about the classes for that game and are being upfront on how they are being developed ( thank god its at beta 0 stage now ) You want to talk about agro generation, for a long time i believed we were kings of agro till i saw how a Guardian at 50 is played... lets see TWO AE TAUNTS ( one of which has a 250+ threat lead over every other tank in the game ) FIVE unlinked single target taunts, slows and stifles.... that right there is agro generation..... ( thank god you cant use the Guard Lvl 50 AE taunt on ^^^ mobs ) Defense eh? lets see our stance gets over written by guardian defense buffs, our 3 min defense buffs slows our attack rate by 20% ( oh it doesnt stack with our stance also ) the only buff we have worth while is our parry buff for defense .............. our Buff that gives us a chance to counter attack when hit poofs after 15 procs ( its a 15 min self btw's ) yeah we are overpowered in dps mode ( but wait no one asks an average lvl 50 berserker how much their dps is in tank mode ) Oh and no need to answer this post with a 2 page essay that isnt really saying anything because you still are a fool for comming here and bashing other peoples ideas.... I'm done with this thread , Have a good day gage <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR>You know what Gage you like to say that we should get over the Description of our class because it was only for Lore and Fluff........ <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I didn't say it Moorgard did, and I only wrote a few paragraphs.</P> <P>But that said I hope the class gets changed in a way that is fair to everyone and still fun to play, whether you like to play offensively or defensively.</P> <P>I have no ill will towards anyone.<BR></P>

[Darkd]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR>You know what Gage you like to say that we should get over the Description of our class because it was only for Lore and Fluff........ <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I didn't say it Moorgard did, and I only wrote a few paragraphs.</P> <P>But that said I hope the class gets changed in a way that is fair to everyone and still fun to play, whether you like to play offensively or defensively.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I have no ill will towards anyone.<BR></FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Could have fooled me.  I am guess a few Zerkers should start trolling the Monk boards.<BR>

[Buggrit]

im sorry but gage has posted some good points you guys just want to be the most uber class and play the roles of 2 classes and you know  he is right so u start flaming him yes i don't always agree and get on with gage but he has some very good points and is bang on about u whiners styker it makes me laugh everytime someone makes a good point u retort to oh your only lvl xxx or oh ur not even a berserker to try and make urself look big when your auctally making yourself out to be a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and i realise  u auctally know sod all about whats going to happen and it makes me laugh <div></div>

[Darkd]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Buggrit wrote:<BR>im sorry but gage has posted some good points you guys just want to be the most uber class and play the roles of 2 classes<BR>and you know  he is right so u start flaming him<BR><BR><BR>yes i don't always agree and get on with gage but he has some very good points and is bang on about u whiners<BR><BR>styker it makes me laugh everytime someone makes a good point u retort to oh your only lvl xxx or oh ur not even a berserker to try <BR>and make urself look big when your auctally making yourself out to be a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and i realise  u auctally know sod all about whats going<BR>to happen and it makes me laugh <BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I dont agree with Styker very offen but on thing he is right about is that you at level 29 still know virtually nothing about Zerkers, and all I ever see come out of your posts is bandwagoning whoever you think is cool at the moment.  Why dont you retire your Zerker pup and make a Monk like your super hero.

[Buggrit]

lol brilliant i know nothing i know most people are complaining is they won't have anything to do on raids heres the thing i like my zerker i enjoy tanking its not me complaining about the berserker class its you  /sniff i won't  be able to tank 2nd best and dps top anymore boo [Removed for Content] hoo grow up and the comment about why don't u make a monk? i had one he was cool but no where near as good as my berserker thanks for the childish and immature comment though it made me laugh <div></div>

[Ungabub]

I've got a simpler solution.  Make shields more important to tanking.  I mean, really, really important.  Like, a fighter not using a shield would tank just a little better than a scout. This would let you use the existing combat system and items to switch between meatshield mode (shield + 1-hander) and DPS mode (dual-wield or 2-hander). There might still be a need to tweak the different class's DPS, and some of the high-damage 1-hand weapons might need to be nerfed, but I think it would accomplish the same thing as what the OP wants without a complicated new mode buff.  And that makes it more likely to actually happen. <div></div>

[Caud]

<P>As it is now there is no reason to have anything except zerkers and healers, besides breeze, in a raid or group.  This would exacerbate that nicely.  Yeah I'm sure its intended for an "offensively oriented tank" to be up with dps classes on damage and tank up with the defensive oriented tanks.</P> <P> </P> <P>This idea already exists as near as I can tell on a lesser scale.  Click off offensive buffs, put on mitigation gear instead of power regen/dmg crap, and swap 2 hander for sword and board.  That ain't gonna happen in a hurry and it means spamming taunts at the same time.</P>

[DrMarshmall]

<DIV> <P><SPAN>I'm confused here. Now I lvled a zerker to 50 and was in a raid guild with that toon for a bit ( I mainly play my warden now since we have a couple great zerkers in my guild) and I really don’t understand how anyone could not see this coming like a mile freakin away. I have made this great Bullet-Point list to convey what I am trying to say:</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><SPAN>-<SPAN>          </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Guardians buff defense of the group, as their counter-part Zerkers buff offence of the group. This does not necessarily mean you are DPS (I think that is what most people took that as), it means others can do more dps because you are there.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><SPAN>-<SPAN>          </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Zerker’s have better agro pulling ability than any other class. Anyone who says “But guardians get X more taunts than zerkers” or (this makes me giggle and I hear it a lot) “Pallys taunts add way more hate than zerkers”. Hello, this is zerker one-zero [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing-one, we get these abilities called Raging Strike and Promise of Violence try them out some time and report back.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><SPAN>-<SPAN>          </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Lets try some math now, as it stands, 2hander (lets say a RGF) + Adept3 BloodRage + Group mobs = Zerker does 300+dps if he has any clue what he is doing, don’t believe me? <A href="http://img246.echo.cx/img246/8941/eq20000038sr.jpg" target=_blank><SPAN>http://img246.echo.cx/img246/8941/eq20000038sr.jpg</SPAN></A> That is me on turbo, kalak is a zerker, ixi is a bruiser, skoda is a guard, vio is a fury and PK a templar. Now I don’t usually play a wizzy so I’m sure he could be higher in the hands of a more experienced player. I took that screen cause of Skoda’s dps (how often you see a guard do 300dps =D), that is about (that one is on he high end) what kalak does on all the sister fights in nek2. Ignore the tells me and ixi just bull[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ting =D </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><SPAN>-<SPAN>          </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Zerkers can tank raid mobs in a crunch, well the lesser raid mobs anyway, I don’t think I’d bring a zerker to tank Lord Naligik (whatever his name is =P) in SE, but king zalak or drayek, npnp</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Now lets add all this together and add the fact that zerkers can use every item in the game, I’m gonna go ahead and say that we are a tad overpowered. Now the aura thing is an interesting idea but you are still making the class way to flexible compared to others, hell just think you could be a pally and be on Rez [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] detail every raid <3. You have to give something up and DPS make the most sense when you look at where the class is positioned. Giving up agro control leaves a very large hole in class abilities and they are in the warrior tree so they have to be able to tank … </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Like I said, the aura thing is an interesting concept but I think you could turn it in another direction (the non-dps direction) and make zerkers a really fun class to play. For example, give zerkers more buffs that absorb/redirect damage that another is taking but make cast times / duration short and based on the type of attack. Like you have one buff that will absorb crushing damage on the target at half the zerkers + 100% of the targets mitigation then gives the group chance to proc an extra crushing attack as kind of a retaliation thing, so there are two ways I can use this, I cast this on a guardian on a raid and for, lets say, 10 seconds all crush attacks that land on the guardian will be absorbed by the guardian at his crush + 50% of the zerkers crushing resist, or cast it on myself as AC buff for the zerker (to give yourself a 50%boost to a resist), and then the group has the chance to proc more damage. <SPAN> </SPAN>Now lets say zerkers get that ability for each kind of physical attack (slash/pierce/crush) but only 1 can be up at a time, that could be some cool [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. Then you could give another spell to zerkers, lets say this is a 15 min buff that takes 2concentration, that when the target of the buff is struck by a melee attack (again break it down to crush/pierce/slash as indiv buffs) it gives the group a chance to proc an extra attack (of the same type delt, meaning slash hits, proc is going to be slash) for whatever amount of damage. Then the real kicker on that buff is (lets pretend) you can cast it cross group. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>There, lets pretend that goes live, <SPAN> </SPAN>zerkers are not he dps powerhouses they once where but all of a sudden they are giving the group the chance to do a lot more damage, they can hold agro like no other and they are they can take a hit which is what I think was originally intended. That would be fun as hell to play too, all kinds of [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] to keep up with not just random button mashing. I am drunk right now, so I could just be talking out my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>EDIT : man that spacing on my thrid bullet point is all [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ed up</SPAN></P></DIV><p>Message Edited by DrMarshmallow on <span class=date_text>07-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:29 AM</span>

[Darkd]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Buggrit wrote:<BR>lol brilliant i know nothing i know most people are complaining is they won't have anything to do on raids <BR><BR>heres the thing i like my zerker i enjoy tanking <BR>its not me complaining about the berserker class its you <BR><BR> /sniff i won't  be able to tank 2nd best and dps top anymore boo [Removed for Content] hoo<BR>grow up and the comment about why don't u make a monk? <BR>i had one he was cool but no where near as good as my berserker<BR><BR>thanks for the childish and immature comment though it made me laugh<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I 5 stared you so you wouldnt cry that I was the one star bandit.  Glad I could make you laugh in between your constant slamming of the Zerker class.  I have only seen you slam this class since you started posting.

[Buggrit]

err 1 star bandit umm yeah whatever i don't really care how i get rated 1) I am not slamming the Berserker class im just slamming people who think there gonna suck and want to play 2 roles 2) you have only seen me slam? ok even if i was slamming (which im not) have u not seen all the posts uuuh [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] were gonna suck im quitting!!! or [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] were gonna suck [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] now i hope they fix this yeaaaah im sorry but maybe you need to open your eyes to the fact we are to powerful and should be brought down a little? <div></div>

[Darkd]

<P>Overpower? A little.  But we still need to serve a purpose.  Maybe in your world of level 29 tanking is all you do, but to most of us that have put time and effort into getting to level 50 and raiding on a regular basis this is not an option.  Oh I can tank a few x2 and x3 mobs but any mob that is worth raiding is left for the Guards and this is fine I knew that going in.  But I also knew going in that I would be able to provide a bit of utility and a decent amount of damage (and what I mean by decent is actually contributing to the raid, not just along for the ride to tell jokes and pick up the occassional add).  I dont know how you dont see this.......oh wait I do....YOUR LEVEL 29.  You bearly know what your role is other than stand taunt kick repeat.  </P> <P>When you hit 50 and find that you are nothing more than a grind tank and about nothing else you will see what so many of us are worried about.  And yes it may be a bit premature but with out any offical info from SOE all we can do is speculate.  These combat revamps are way over due (should have been worked out in beta) and we have already had an early taste on the fact that our combat buffs will no longer stack.  This premature release reduced my self buff HP by almost 1k.  Now that is a significant change.  Also many of us have invested a lot of plat to upgrade spells that may no long be necessary.  So there is a lot for some of us to lose, at 29 I know it is hard for you to relate but as you level you will start to understand.</P> <p>Message Edited by Darkdog on <span class=date_text>07-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:48 AM</span>

[Buggrit]

so ur crying about not being able to raid? lol and attacking my level again how pathetically stupid btw guardians are also getting made so there buffs don't stack anymore but again feel free to keep complaining and attacking people that are telling the truth if it makes you feel better<span></span> <div></div>

[Kaberu]

<P>As nice as it is to see arguements pop up and misconceptions, I feel I should clarify a few things. For one, I wish the Berserker Aura idea was not necessary. The one reason I suggested it was due to the upcoming changes.<BR><BR>It was stated that Guardians would be able to tweak their stats to put out more damage than a Berserker who isn't tweaked for damage but for tanking. This sounds fine and all, but the problem is that it doesn't create enough of a difference between Guardians and Berserkers to make the spilt worthwhile. If I am a 19 warrior, I should be able to focus on AGI and a shield and out tank a 19 Warrior that focuses on STR and a twohander. Is this true? Yes, of course it is. It is also true that he can outdamage me with his higher STR and his twohander.<BR><BR>With the upcoming changes, even though I chose to go offensive at 20 by picking Berserker and someone else chose to go defensive by picking Guardian... we are being told that the only real difference has little to do with class and mostly has to do with stat placement. If this is true, then why bother spliting us from Warriors in the first place?<BR><BR>I chose Berserker for a reason, and that reason has slowly been eroded and whittled down. Second best tank? Not I for sure. I usually ran around in high stat/lower AC heavy armor and either duals or a 2hander and filled a DPS role and I usually only tanked in small groups. Potentially second best tank, maybe... but not if I was playing my class like I read they were made to be. <BR><BR>And speaking of DPS and your lovely screenshot of the 400+ zerker damage... what was that about group mobs? Of course we outdamage on group mobs... how about against a single mob? I'm usually outdamaged by scouts and brawlers unless there are 3 or more mobs. And by the the looks of it the fight was against the Everling dolls... hmmm... lets see, a mass of 8 or so single overcons and a Zerker with stunning roar, Slaughter and a fast recast AOE kick (not to mention Rampage if it was used) plus the bloodlust proc, anarchy, fury... Those things would last maybe 15 seconds and you'd certainly be able to get a few nice AOE damage spells off in that time inflating the numbers drastically.<BR><BR>Overpowered? Hardly, your screenshot is of a very rare circumstance that is drastically in favor of melees due to their short cast time on their attacks and especially teetered towards berserkers who can dump alot of AOE damage in a few seconds. A ranger could have easily beaten you to the punch with an open shot of Storm of Arrows and wiped the floor with your measly DPS (by comparison) against a mass of mobs that weak. I can easily show you a DPS count of me doing over 700 DPS for a fight by oneshotting a grey mob with vanquish. <BR><BR>You should consider the intelligence of the other posters before posting a highly skewed picture like that. Personally I won't take anything you say for granted unless I can personally verify it... but that's just me.<BR><BR>The upcoming changes, although not fully realized, certainly have me disheartened. If what we fear comes true then sure, we can quit, we can also fight to be heard. Maybe all the players trying to be full tanks as Berserkers should ask themselves why they picked Berserker to begin with? What about the description made someone who liked to be a pure tank pick a class that wasn't described as a tank?<BR><BR>Picking a Berserker and going all defense fine... it's a good way to get a balanced class, just like picking a guardian and focusing on offense should be. What's being proposed is that Sony is going to do the balancing for us by taking away (at least some of) the point of choosing a class to begin with at level 20.</P> <P>Edit: used undercon instead of overcon, everling dolls are overcons (ie: weak) =P</P><p>Message Edited by Kaberu on <span class=date_text>07-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:12 PM</span>

[Hamervelder]

<DIV>If Sony is taking away our DPS, they'd better give us <EM>something</EM> useful.  As it stands, the only thing that <EM>remotely</EM> sets us apart is our ability to do <EM>a little</EM> more DPS than other fighter classes.  Take that away, and we're useless.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Darkd]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Buggrit wrote:<BR>so ur crying about not being able to raid? lol<BR>and attacking my level again how pathetically stupid<BR><BR>btw guardians are also getting made so there buffs don't stack anymore<BR>but again feel free to keep complaining and attacking people that are telling the truth if it makes you feel better<SPAN></SPAN><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ever feel like you are the only one with these veiws?  I continue to see you spew you attacks on MY class and yes I will continue to attack your level.  You lack to the experience and the knowledge of what your class will be like in 20 levels to make any assumptions about MY class.  I know you could give a rats [Removed for Content] about the star rating but it is a good judge of how others either agree and dissagree with your comments.   From what I see here no one really thinks your opinions are valid save the monk that continues to troll Zerker boards to pad his posting stats.  I am pretty much done with this thread as I see there is enough good info to combat the stupidity.  So by all means keep your head in the sand and enjoy your miss named Guradian. 

[Buggrit]

its amazing Dark everytime you post you just prove yourself to be even more stupid Yes i may only be on the one with my views? do i look like i care? Yes no one thinks my posts are Valid guess why its  because im telling the truth the fact is you guys all knew berserkers were overpowered and it was so stupidly obvious they were going to get nerfed and the fact is alot of the people here can't accept the truth no idea why You can argue until your blue in the face that were dps and not tanks but the fact is every class in the Fighter Tree is a tank wether they like it or not its really tought [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] on them i have yet to see one good reason on this board of why berserkers should be dps and not tanks <div></div>

[Tudd]

<span><blockquote><hr>Buggrit wrote:its amazing Dark everytime you post you just prove yourself to be even more stupid Yes i may only be on the one with my views? do i look like i care? Yes no one thinks my posts are Valid guess why its  because im telling the truth the fact is you guys all knew berserkers were overpowered and it was so stupidly obvious they were going to get nerfed and the fact is alot of the people here can't accept the truth no idea why You can argue until your blue in the face that were dps and not tanks but the fact is every class in the Fighter Tree is a tank wether they like it or not its really tought [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] on them i have yet to see one good reason on this board of why berserkers should be dps and not tanks <hr></blockquote>Perhaps we should rephrase your question. Should Berserkers only be tanks and not DPS? If a tank is not tanking, then what role does he have in a group? In a raid? As Berserkers, we can bring some nice buffs to the table for groups and raids, but that alone is not enough. This is not just a Berserker problem. ALL classes need to be able to do good DPS when they are not filling their primary role. If you have 3 tanks, a healer, a scout, and a mage in the group, then what do you think the other two tanks are going to be contributing? Or if the group has 2 tanks, 2 healers, a scout, and a mage. What will the other tank and healer be doing? I'd hope they would be contributing good DPS. If they are not, then you are moving the game in a direction where people will not want a second tank or healer in group. One of the goals SOE had with EQ2 was to allow more flexibility in the creation of groups, to provide a more casual and easier to group atmosphere. That meant allowing classes to stack better in groups. And DPS stacks. Tanking doesn't, at least for 95% of the content in this game. Too many folks think around the "ideal" group, and base their arguments off that. "Your a tank, so therefore everything should be built around that, you shouldn't be doing DPS, because that's not your role". However, that is only true if I'm the only tank in the group. If I'm not the only tank in a group, then I need to be able to contribute. And that means providing DPS. The problem is, some classes have a "duality" role, while others do not. Tanks are one such group, Priests are another. Mages, depending on the subclass, also have a duality role. What I mean by "duality" is that if your not performing in your primary role (tanking, healing, crowd control) then you are performing in a secondary role, that being one of DPS. The problem with classes that have dualities, is that because they can do both, they can be overpowered in some situations. Berserkers are overpowered for two reasons. One, SOE didn't balance the other classes as well as they did the Berserker. Priests do too little damage in group situations. Scouts and mages are too inhibited in their DPS when being attacked, and not enough skills/spells to deal with multiple enemies in multiple-mob situations. The second reason is because SOE didn't seperate the duality the way they should have. Your either tanking, or DPS. Your healing, or DPS. Being able to do both effectively at the same time is the crux of the problem. In this regard, WoW got it right. For warriors, you either have an offensive stance, or defensive. While in offensive, you do more DPS but sacrifice tanking. Certain skills were only available while you were in one mode or the other. SOE tried a more subtle approach, by having skills that raised your defense, but lowered your crushing/slashing/piercing. The problem is, that the modifications aren't drastic enough that it can't be made up with gear, stat pumping, etc. And DPS skills weren't hindered for the most part. If I have Unflinching Will activated, it doesn't prevent me from using, say, Berserker Assault. The *one* thing I am most concerned with, is that by dropping Berserker DPS, this will have an effect on the amount of aggro we generate. Right now, we are second best defensive tank compared to Guardians, but we have better aggro generation due in part because of your better DPS. Drop our DPS, and we possibly become second best defensive tank, along with ? best in aggro generation. If scouts and mages have their DPS increased, then that also means their aggro generation will increase. That puts you in a Catch-22. Tank puts out less aggro because he generates less DPS, and has a harder time getting it back because the other classes are putting out more aggro due to their increased DPS. So those arguing that modifying DPS is the most logical way to fix the balancing problem, it's not quite that simple. Increasing/decreasing DPS means that other areas will have to be modified, since classes were designed around their current DPS output.</span><div></div>

[bathory610]

<P>this thread and the posts contained therein (aside from the majority of bugs posts, although i see where is coming from, his level is a big issue) has some great info and ideas.</P> <P> </P> <P>keep it up maybe they will look, er one can dream cant they </P>