Zerkers moving towards bottom of DPS pile :( [Archive]

Skr

06-23-2005, 06:10 PM

<P>I never thought I would actually say this, but this is perhaps the one thing that could cause me to quit playing eq2.</P> <P>Berserkers relegated to meatshields and nothing else?? /cry</P> <P>We rule as it is, we all like it, and nobody else in the game actually cares. It's all down to these terrible players who can't actually play their class. Ok so in groups normally my berserker does more damage than the next two highest dps classes combined, but then you have a ranger doing 12.3 dps at level 35? Don't tell me thats because it's 'unbalanced'. It's because some people are just [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] at their class. If people were playing properly, then scouts and mages WOULD outdamage zerkers, but they're not and they cry for the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing nerf stick. In good groups, or when someone decides to actually play properly for a bit, I'm very very rarely the top damage dealer (except on like 14-mob encounters, blood rage rules lol). </P> <P>Maybe we should all make an agreement to play badly for a bit, then they might nerf eveyrbody else. See how they like it *sticks tongue out*.</P> <P>Man it pisses me off, my fists are about to explode.</P> <DIV>edit : yeah also what the hell is up with furies being at the bottom of the list? I don't actually play a fury but in the official class description it says, and i quote </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"Furies harness the power of storms and control the ferocity of nature."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE translation : They can call in a slight drizzle to make their enemies' hair damp. Hooray.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>??????</DIV><p>Message Edited by Skrak on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:15 AM</span>

Tarindel

06-23-2005, 06:10 PM

SOE originally pushed fighter types as DPS classes. It's too bad they decided to change their minds so far into the game already. The real question now is how big the differences in DPS are going to be between those various groups. <div></div>

RexTenebrarum

06-23-2005, 06:13 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Buggrit wrote:<BR>... Berserkers are tanks <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Only in EQ2 <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When I started playing I picked a Zerker because of an image I had in my mind about berserker (both historically and from other games) . I never intended to build a tank. Maybe I should have read the manual better or done some more research on the boards, but I didn't, because I thought/hoped that SOE would have the same image of berserkers as the majority of people.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

CherobylJ

06-23-2005, 06:32 PM

<HR> First group: <UL> <LI>Wizard/Warlock <LI>Assassin/Ranger</LI></UL>Second group: <UL> <LI>Conjurer/Necromancer (using damage pet) <LI>Brigand/Swashbuckler</LI></UL>Third group: <UL> <LI>Coercer/Illusionist, Conjurer/Necromancer (using tank pet) <LI>Troubador/Dirge <LI>Bruiser/Monk </LI></UL>Fourth group: <UL> <LI>Berserker/Shadowknight <LI>Paladin/Guardian</LI></UL>Fifth group: <UL> <LI>Fury/Warden <LI>Defiler/Mystic <LI>Inquisitor/Templar</LI></UL> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its the EQ1 damage hierarchy. /shrug took them 8 months to figure out they needed to replicate the same hierachy.</DIV>

WolfSha

06-23-2005, 08:34 PM

<P>pin wrote:</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>WolfShark wrote:<BR></P> <P>From that post...</P> <P>"A Guardian who concentrates on damage output and upgrades his or her offensive abilities could surpass a Berserker who focuses on defensive capabilities"</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>They already do.</FONT></P> <P>Does that mean we can suddenly surpass a guard if we concentrate on defence?? That sounds unlikely. I don't like the sound of this at all <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif" width=16 border=0></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>We already do.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>Maybe if one had all app 1's and the other had all adept 3's. Other wise no chance.</P> <P>Personally I wanna be in plate. I didn't make my zerker to run around half naked. I know they did historically and in eq1, but they don't in this game and i wanted a high dmg plate tank.</P> <P>Having said that, i don't want a guards tanking ability. I want just enough defence to keep me alive while tanking and bucket loads of dps.</P> <P>This is all the result of the HUGE amounts of winging every tank class (appart from ours) has done about not being able to tank as well as a guardian. If you read the testing feebback forums you'll find loads of it.</P> <P>And a lot of posts by me saying "If you wanna tank like a guard then plan one, don't make a monnk then moan about it"....</P> <P>Guess it's all too late now... the moaners have had their way... :smileysad:</P> <P>Message Edited by WolfShark on <SPAN class=date_text>06-23-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:35 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by WolfShark on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:35 AM</span>

Pin StNeedl

06-23-2005, 09:37 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P>Maybe if one had all app 1's and the other had all adept 3's. Other wise no chance.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>I wasn't talking about skill upgrades. Given that both have Adept3s in every skill, but the Guard has gone for +str gear and traits, where the Zerk has gone for +agi/sta gear and traits, then the Guard will do more damage.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Similarly, the Zerk with +agi/sta can tank better than a Guard with +str, etc.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>The difference between the two classes is much less than you think, it really just lies in that Guards boost the defense of the group and their own offense, whereas Zerks buff the offense of the group and their own defense. Beyond that, there is little to choose between them.</FONT></P> <P>Personally I wanna be in plate. I didn't make my zerker to run around half naked. I know they did historically and in eq1, but they don't in this game and i wanted a high dmg plate tank.</P> <P>Having said that, i don't want a guards tanking ability. I want just enough defence to keep me alive while tanking and bucket loads of dps.</P> <P>This is all the result of the HUGE amounts of winging every tank class (appart from ours) has done about not being able to tank as well as a guardian. If you read the testing feebback forums you'll find loads of it.</P> <P>And a lot of posts by me saying "If you wanna tank like a guard then plan one, don't make a monnk then moan about it"....</P> <P>Guess it's all too late now... the moaners have had their way... :smileysad:</P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Zerks have had Guards' tanking ability (or 95% of it) since the beginning. Any extra differences are largely down to personal choices you made for your own character (like you focused on strength, rather than hp), and your personal ability and practice at the role of tanking.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Similarly, if a Guardian is not seeing good DPS, I can assure you that that is largely down to him making tank-based decisions, and not having enough practice in DPS roles.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>And in the incoming combat changes I do not expect much to change in the overall relationship between Berserkers and Guardians, however I do expect that ALL fighters' base DPS will receive a general downward adjustment. This is, of course, hard to measure, because MOST of a fighter's DPS while grouped is coming from buffs placed on them by the group as a whole. So even if you look at that table posted by Moorgard, you could well still parse higher than most mages on a raid, purely because your damage is tripled by buffs from the other 5 members of your group (and thus that DPS should be attributed to them).</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

PowertothePeople

06-24-2005, 06:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P align=left>How many times do I have to say it and for people to say it on the boards, zerkers DO NOT tank in raids. Guardians are FAR more superior when it cames down to raiding. I dont want to be the MT as a zerker in raids, I want to do damage. Yes this for end game raiding players, I like to raid, I raid every night almost. I DO NOT CARE if the guardian tanks better then me in those situations, make me usefull in another which we are atm as a DPS person in the raids. If you do not like raid that is fine. </P> <P align=left>BECAUSE</P> <P align=left>I've also stated MANY TIMES that Zerkers and Guardians in normal groups are just as good at being MT as it of right now. SK's are just as good Tanks in normal groups as Zerkers and Guardians, Actually SK's are better at MT in a raid if they have to then zerkers. They only thing that is different in normal groups is the agro control, which zerkers might be better at but at NO MEANS does that mean guardians or SK's cant control just fine. </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR></P>

Mithru

06-24-2005, 07:49 AM

I don't know. I'll give it a chance. If I find myself no longer having fun with the class, I likely would quit. I mean, if I were to try to solo something I know I could have before but can't, I'd could easily find myself not having much fun. Seriously, eight months after release and they are going to completely overhaul all the classes? <div></div>

los

06-24-2005, 10:05 AM

<P><FONT size=5>Yes, i am thinking about quitting. You invest the time into the character for 6 months (BY SONY MANUAL and definition of BERSEKER), then they overhaul you</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=5></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0033 size=6>You buy a Mercedes suv AMG truck, they turn you into a slow [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] moving Hummer</FONT></P> <P>IF YOU DONT POST YOUR OPINIONS, you wont be HEARD!</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=19811" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=19811</A></P> <P> </P>

Buggrit

06-24-2005, 12:18 PM

<DIV>ok maybe my reply wasn't all that good but weather you like it or not we are tanks im sorry but Fighters Job is to get up there in front and fight is it not? keep the agro off the other guys so they can dish out the dmg thats why we wear that heavy armour thats why we wield those big weapons.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you chose your zerker you started off Fighter you Chose WARRIOR class which is a tank class after all u cannot deny </DIV> <DIV>then you chose Berserker and offensive Warrior we ARE tanks</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>theres no which way around it if you signed up for dps then well tough **** for u you because it was so obvious berserkers were due for a nerfing way to overpowered in the dmg department compared to what the scouts and mages could put out </DIV> <DIV>so now were not gonna be able to do dmg like them like we shouldn't and ur going to whine about it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yeah im gonna miss the dmg i guess but i signed up berserker to be a tank and i've done pretty well so far</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but i do agree Berserkers were written badly into EQ2 i love history and berserkers usually wore light Chain armour sometimes even leather no shield and a big weapon and just ran at the enemy Crazed blocking blows with there body</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>all those posts you guys made about pulling agro off people without even taunting? that plays a big part of this nerf</DIV><p>Message Edited by Buggrit on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:26 AM</span>

Rhaam

06-24-2005, 12:44 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Buggrit wrote:<BR> <DIV>When you chose your zerker you started off Fighter you Chose WARRIOR class which is a tank class after all u cannot deny </DIV> <DIV>then you chose Berserker and offensive Warrior we ARE tanks</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Buggrit on <SPAN class=date_text>06-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:26 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree. I signed up to tank as a warrior. I would like to be a solid tank with above par DPS compared to other fighters not a DPS machine as some would like us to be. At best we will be middle of the pack DPS as fighters according to SoE.......</DIV>

Buggrit

06-24-2005, 12:47 PM

yes i agree Rhaa but i don't think we should be ahead of monks and bruisers because of the fact they give up wearing all this heavy armour that protects us they wear crappy light armour hence they do high dmg however i think we should come in a very close 3rd next to monks <p>Message Edited by Buggrit on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:18 AM</span>

DantonMithani

06-24-2005, 02:17 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P><FONT size=5>Yes, i am thinking about quitting. You invest the time into the character for 6 months (BY SONY MANUAL and definition of BERSEKER), then they overhaul you</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>This is totally correct. I will defnitly quit EQ2 and seriously never play a game created by SOE EVER AGAIN, not EVER. Instead I will just wait for Vanguard to be released, a game that will obviously be a good one, simpyl because the producers aren'T total [Removed for Content].</P> <P>I mean come on, how can you seriously tell everyone the Berserker class is going to be a DPS Tank (and according to the things released pre-launch, the development the whole thing took since beta -don'T flame here, I've been there- ONE HAD TO THINK that a Zerker is a DPS-Tank with slightly higher offensive abilities than defensive ones) and then after 6 or 7 Month of playing and spending A LOT OF TIME with this game and the character you just [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] it up compeltely by putting it down at the bottom of the DPS line?</P> <P>Come on, seriously, are you [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]? That might not hurt someone too bad who has the time to lvl up another char quick.. but someoen with a RL will QUIT YOUR [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ING GAME, GUYS.</P> <P>It will be no 30 mins after you implement this and I will be gone, gone from a game where the producers, the producing company and obviously the developers too don'T give a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] on what their player-base says.. and also don'T give jack [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about people beeing loyal to their game even if it sucked for the first 3 months.. I really could have saved that time I have invested in my Zerker if I had known he would be gimped to [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] at lvl 48.</P> <P>Now delete that post like you delete all posts that are correct but sound negative. [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] this I just hope you lose alot of your players with this "revamping the whole class tree after 6 months" [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].</P> <P> </P> <P>sincerly,</P> <P> </P> <P><BR> </P>

Dherf

06-24-2005, 03:12 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stromulis wrote:<BR>I'm so freaking [Removed for Content] off about this change. I don't want to be a tank! I want DPS. I'll wear light armor if need be. I envisioned a Norse type character with a barechest and loincloth with a bear head on whacking stuff and not feeling damage because of rage. I didn't want a marital arts guy to do damage. I wanted to use swords and axes, dual weilding!<BR><BR>This just bites!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Reroll a scout or a wizzy type , Berserkers are warriors !!!!! We are tanks .....</DIV> <DIV>Don't u like that? change class!!</DIV><p>Message Edited by Dherfel on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:00 AM</span>

RexTenebrarum

06-24-2005, 07:47 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Dherfel wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Stromulis wrote:<BR>I'm so freaking [Removed for Content] off about this change. I don't want to be a tank! I want DPS. I'll wear light armor if need be. I envisioned a Norse type character with a barechest and loincloth with a bear head on whacking stuff and not feeling damage because of rage. I didn't want a marital arts guy to do damage. I wanted to use swords and axes, dual weilding!<BR><BR>This just bites!<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Reroll a scout or a wizzy type , Berserkers are warriors !!!!! We are tanks .....</DIV> <DIV>Don't u like that? change class!!</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Dherfel on <SPAN class=date_text>06-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:00 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Ok.. even if we are considered tanks.. we always have been pictured by SOE as DPS tanks...Take away our DPS and what do you get? A mediocre Guardian.. I didn't choose to be a guardian at lvl20, I sure don't want to be forcefully turned into one months after i dinged 50 <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And no.. I don't want to play another class either.. tried scouts and mages.. they just don't fit my style of play..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

uux

06-24-2005, 08:38 PM

I think it's best to wait and see what happens on the test server before over reacting to the combat overhaul. Even with MG's other comments, people don't seem to be paying attention to anything more than the group rankings. In the interview it was stated that nothing is absolute and it will depend on how the class is played. Would it have been better received if he didn't compare guardians and berserkers? What if he said in some cases a berserker could out damage a dirge? It could happen. There is no way a dirge holding a single dual wield weapon (pick the worst one you can find) should out damage a berserker with a good 2H in straight melee combat. It will all depend on how the class is played. I think that was the key part of the interview. <div></div>

grymmstone

06-25-2005, 02:58 AM

I am just getting ready to do my Beserker Training. Face it zerkers are really a tank in the long run. That's what all your practice and training and xp was about from level 10 -19.

Raybour

06-25-2005, 03:30 PM

Hey, fer those 'a ya that wanted t' wear light/med/no armor an' be zerkers of yore, I hear ya, an' I feel yer pain, believe you me. I said the same thin' back in Dec or Jan or mebbe earlier when we firs' got "nerfed." This story been goin' on on th' zerker boards ferever. But, fact is zerkers been tanks in EQ2 since almos' launch. We ain't DPS an' ain't gonna be soon. That havin' been said, we c'n keep aggro real good, an' get lots an' lotsa hate goin'. So we be real good tanks - 'specially agains' groups 'a mobs. We got nice group area taunts an' attacks, an' zerkin' an' such gits ya lots an' lotsa aggro. I gots t' be real careful when any other fighter type be MT or I pull aggro fer sure. An', btw, y' CAN dual wield 'r use yer 2-hander - even when yer main tankin' - jus' not agains' every kinda mob (don' try it wif big bad bosses). I love m' zerker, an' expec' that I'll continue t' love 'im. Still, this has been true for very long, an' ain't new, that a zerker fits into th' tank role in this game. A zerker be a tank; healers be, well, healers; an' folk in th' scout an' mage lines be DPS. Yer never gonna compete wif assassins an' warlocks fer DPS, but jus' watch'em take a beatin' an' wet th'mselfs when they git aggro an' you'll see why zerkers be so tough. Motelcom Zoil <div></div>

06-25-2005, 05:45 PM

It's always been sony's idea that all fighters were tanks. We all get new taunts, and defence/avoidance buff. However I was told that the differance would be in the way we tanked. For example, monks/bruisers would have to boost the hell out of agi to avoid most hits. Berserkers couldn't take a hit quite as well as a guardian, but could dish out the pain faster, and end the fight quicker. It was crammed down my throat, before the game was released, that all fighters would tank equally. Now, this doesn't mean we need to take hits equally. I don't expect to take less damage than a guardian, but I don't expect to take far more either. We are supposed to be differant sides of the same coin. One takes a hit better, and the other dishes it out better. But, that being said. I love being a berserker, and am happy the way I am. I don't expect to be the best raid tank, but, since I'm an aggro magnet, I'm happy I can take a few hit, or keep some of the adds off the defensivly-challanged group members. Not only can I contribute DPS in raids, but also nice offesive buffs. In non-raid groups, I can tank just fine. Sure, I may take slightly more damage than a well equipped guardian, but... well, I take less than a poorly equiped one. However, I don't want to be nerfed... I'm happy where I am. And, personally, I don't think we need it. We don't get any of the nice utility spells that other classes get. Evac, feign death, heals, etc. Instead, we are a little sturdier. <div></div>

Luke1

06-26-2005, 05:58 AM

<P>Stop with this "dont like it, change classes!" bull[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], if you want to sound like a broken record, do it in another thread.</P> <P>I made a berserker because I read, from SOE, that fighters were going to be the primary damage dealers (anyone remember that, I sincerely remember reading that, not from another player either) before I made mine. I read the description of a berserker more or less ripping [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] apart. Now all Ive ever done as a berserker is tank and not be able to peel from people for the life of me (stand the line, adept 2 talent taunt, adept 2 talent shout, raging fist, everything). </P> <P>Rerolling wouldnt be such a big deal except for the fact that this games dying and its nearly impossible to find a group (especially in the commonlands, forget the commonlands, I have to run to antonica 100% of the time on my predator).</P><p>Message Edited by Luke1h7 on <span class=date_text>06-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:00 PM</span>

Kran

06-26-2005, 08:05 PM

<P>I gotta jump in here too,</P> <P>I'm [Removed for Content] about this as well. The EQ2 player base is CONVINCED that guardians tank, period. Sony doesnt get it, we dont end game tank. Huge guilds would choose a guardian 99% of the time over a zerker, so what is our use now that we are only above meatshield tanks and healers in the dps chart. I already have enough time getting into a 24person raid, now that I'm crap DPS, not a tank, that leaves me with what, buffing? Gimme a break. Not every warrior is going to be maintanking, we need other rolls as well.</P>

06-26-2005, 11:42 PM

<DIV>This is crap. Id rather keep the dps and lose heavy armor instead. I bet SOE go ahead with this as well and dont even tihnk twice about [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing up a class.</DIV><p>Message Edited by r4d4 on <span class=date_text>06-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:43 PM</span>

Laereneth

06-27-2005, 12:00 AM

<P>I must strongly agree, ever since I heard rumors about a dps nerf on zerks, I have had some serious thoughts about other mmorgs. I have taken the long time and effort to level up to a 48, soon to be 49 zerk, loving the class every step of the way, just to have SOE virtually dismantle my class, is extremely disheartening! </P> <P>If they're going to change the fundamental makeup of a class from what it currently exists, whether it is as intended or not, then they need to offer to give you another character class of your choosing at the level of your current high level main. If they're going to change everything you love about your class, then they should give you another one of equal level and gear! Who wants to recreate another character and make the same very linear climb back up to the level at which you spent sooo much time to achieve? Will this ever happen? No, Does SOE care? More than likely not!</P> <P>But please, all you disgruntled zerkers out there, post your displeasure of the upcomming changes. It'll probably take 8+ pages of responses for SOE to even take the time to read out posts.</P> <P>But this is pure wrong on the basest level!</P> <P>And as for dps, the only reason a scout can complain about not having the dps of a zerk or other such fighter, is due to poor play style. I have since created a ranger to see what all the whinning was about and I can easily out dps any tank of equal level and pull agro from them at half throtle. It's all about how you play your class!!</P> <P>Bjoern</P>

Espyderman

06-27-2005, 12:45 AM

<P>As it is right now, i like SOE's new list.</P> <P>Fact is Monks (maybe Brigands) are not logically a tank role, however if you play a monk you know you can tank well, not as well as a real tank but mediocre to say the least. However, monks wear crappy armor, and are more mrtial trained, therefore should output more DPS then a Zerker. Same with Brigands.</P> <P>Mage Classes and DPS classes should be higher on the totem pole in damage, and zerkers and guardians should almost be equals however i think zerkers shld be more dps oriented then defensive, and i think this change will reflect that.</P> <P>When i read the manual i made choices based on their heirarchy, found out in game it was all [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ed up. Now they fix it and we are where we should be. Oh and bring in those damned AA's will ya?!</P>

Ethelwo

06-27-2005, 09:23 AM

<P>Scouts shouldn't be the masters of dps and this is why.</P> <P>Scouts get sneek</P> <P>Scouts get track</P> <P>Scouts get a fast run speed buff</P> <P>Scouts get evac</P> <P>Bards get the best buffs in the game</P> <P>Scouts should not also get the best dps its giving to much to one archtype and leaving another (Fighter) with to little.</P> <P>heavy armor is the most expensive in the game.</P> <P>A Level 50 troubador can buff his Hps higher then my L50 berserkers.</P> <P>Just because a class wears heavy armor doesn't mean they should be happy with that and that alone. heavy armor is highly overated in the end game. Even though my Berserker is dressed out in ebon, an epic mob can waste me in 3 hits, He can waste the L50 troubador in 2, wow heavy armor means so much.</P> <P>SOE is going to destroy the fighter class in favor of scouts and casters. Thats their choice so rerole now.</P> <P> </P>

Buggrit

06-27-2005, 12:03 PM

hahahahaha that last post omg that cracked me up /wipes tears from his eyes seriously ok half of what u listed benefits you also again u want to be 2nd best tanking with top dps the uber class Sneak ok laughing to hard to even reply Track its not all that good but hell it helps u when u need to find a mob for a quest plus with the Eq2 maps kinda makes Track useless evac ur complaining hello its probally saved ur [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] before i know it has mine Fast fun speedbuff pathfinding i pressume? itsn ot all that good SoW is better omg nerf teh priests they can sow!! Bards best buffs in games which can also benefit ur stupid [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] lol god laughing so much maybe u should wait and see the combat changes before you whine like children or if u really think ur class is going to suck that bad then just quit please quit why project your pointless negativity on the community <div></div>

Laereneth

06-27-2005, 02:31 PM

<P>We're making our displeasure known so that maybe, in some infintesimal way, SOE might actually read the boards and noticed that, hey, we're going to tick off a whole lot of people with our upcomming nerfs. That is one of the things that forums are for. So, if you don't care for the complaints, don't read them. Yes, I agree, some of the rants are a little much, but it's what the person is feeling at the time, so let them rant. It shows a concerned player that is very happy with their class the way it is and doesn't want it changed.</P> <P>Personally, I think nerfs are the worse thing any mmorg can do. Especially so far since launch. Balancing should've been done within the first couple months. Heck, it should've been done in beta! I've never heard of a nerf that didn't dissappoint countless number of people. And that's the bottom line.</P> <P>Bjoern</P>

Laereneth

06-27-2005, 02:35 PM

<P>Oh, and when you're laughing at the previous poster, stating that the scout's buffs and evac help him, so why complain? I can make the same point for us. Our haste and our tanking and our agro control via DPS help them stay alive in groups. So why should they complain? Yes, the better each class is, the more they help everyone else in the group.</P> <P>I'll tell you what's going to happen. Our dps will get nerfed. Theirs might be raised. Then they'll be complaining because we can never hold agro well enough for them to use their abilities without graining agro. I can tell you now, I have a little up and comming ranger (just for a change of pace, though the zerk is and will be my main) and I have absolutely no problem pulling agro for tanks if I go 3/4 throtle. If I use one of my high dmg specials within the first 10 sec, boom, they turn and salute me. And yes, I've testing this numerous times with several different tank types. I will admit, I have yet to group him with a zerk.</P> <P>Bjoern</P>

tyrinon

06-27-2005, 09:25 PM

<DIV>I'd be interested to know how SOE is going to compensate those of us who made the class under the pretense of being dps rather than tanks. Do i get a /respec class outta this when you "FIX" my class to hit like a paladin? I personally find it rather amusing that just like in eq1 a specific class can whine enough that SOE changes the entire game to fit there needs. In case SOE missed it there are other solutions to fixing a problem than nerfing the crap outta everyone else, like hmmm giving the rogue classes a much higher change of crits from positional attacks, or maybe even attacks that crit for there duration or hell give them a blanket dps upgrade. As for bards/dirges,illusionists doing more dps than a guy in plate armor with a giant axe, who's built to kill stuff ...i have no opinion as that even puzzles me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dargond Dawnchaser</DIV> <DIV>48 Bezerker</DIV> <DIV>Oasis</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Styk

06-27-2005, 11:38 PM

Buggrit , your the fool to not see the trend in how berserkers are handled in this game ( oh wait if your sig is correct then you wouldnt really know anything about a zerker would you ) how can 4 plate tanks all vie for one spot in a group or a raid? answer that question first <div></div>

Laereneth

06-28-2005, 02:23 AM

<P>As for a class respec, wouldn't that be a novel idea. It would be the most fair if they're totally changing what the class from what you understood it when you dumped tons of time and resources into building it. But this would never happen as it would require code changes on SOE's side or a massive amount of GM time to do manually.</P> <P>Bjoern</P>

Buggrit

06-28-2005, 02:48 AM

Easy each of the plate tanks will have something to offer with the changes it makes me laugh you are using insults about my level but anyways I find it funny your all moaning about something that has not even happened yet why not wait and find out instead of whining like little kids? and as i said before ifu reallly don't like it then just quit rather than produce your negativity on these boards as for me im happy and i doubt i'll be visiting this forum again since half the time its just people moaning now <div></div>

RexTenebrarum

06-28-2005, 02:09 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Buggrit wrote:<BR>Easy each of the plate tanks will have something to offer with the changes it makes me laugh you are using insults about my level but anyways<BR> I<BR> find it funny your all moaning about something that has not even happened yet why not wait and find out instead of whining like little kids?<BR>and as i said before ifu reallly don't like it then just quit rather than produce your negativity on these boards as for me im happy and i doubt i'll be visiting this forum again since half the time its just people moaning now<BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>It's not insulting you about your level Buggrit, but you've been playing a zerker for 2 weeks now.. there are simply things you haven't done or seen yet .. Wait till you get 10 lvls higher and really start dishing out some serious dmg.. wait till you get into a couple of raids and see what it really feels like to go berserk.. then come back and tell us you still want SOE to change our class.. it takes a lot longer to become attached to a character..2 weeks is nothing ..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most people here care about our subclass and the time they put into it.. they are just voicing their concern and frustration and some do it more vocally then others.. that however is not moaning or whinning or whatever you decide to call it ..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In regard to your 'laughing' post.. it's true that all other classes benefit from each others skills and buffs.. but if you want to compare it, you have to do it on a solo basis.. Are we able to sneak around and complete quests or get our shard back like that? Can we evac when things get hairy and save us the trouble of finding a group to get our shards back and loose money on repairs (fabled gear costs an arm and a leg to repair <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) Can we track for that 1 mob we need to kill to complete a quest ( i know about eq2maps, but i'm talking about regular mobs). Can we buff our runspeed? Can we kite (yeah yeah.. i know about the nerf, but seen it being done yesterday still by a troub in EL) ... answers to that are always no <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV>Before calling people names, please think your arguments over first..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Laereneth

06-28-2005, 02:41 PM

<P>One more thought to chew on. As of right now, fighters stack in a group to a fairly efficient means. Meaning, if you have two fighter types in a group, that's ok, as they still bring some dps to the table. Once this change comes into place, all groups will be strictly one tank groups. Thus, our grouping ability will drop dramatically! Any experienced group worth their weight in salt isn't going to want a second tank in the group. It would be counter productive.</P> <P>I've already seen some tanks bailing from the class due to this, if not the game altogether. :smileysad:</P> <P>Bjoern</P>

Kran

06-28-2005, 10:15 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Laereneth wrote:<BR> <P>One more thought to chew on. As of right now, fighters stack in a group to a fairly efficient means. Meaning, if you have two fighter types in a group, that's ok, as they still bring some dps to the table. Once this change comes into place, all groups will be strictly one tank groups. Thus, our grouping ability will drop dramatically! Any experienced group worth their weight in salt isn't going to want a second tank in the group. It would be counter productive.</P> <P>I've already seen some tanks bailing from the class due to this, if not the game altogether. :smileysad:</P> <P>Bjoern</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah and I'm not going to stand for that! After our dmg gets nerfed, raids will take 2gaurds, DPS will simply go to the group 1/2 classes. Sure our buffs are good, but a 50% haste isnt better then having another DPS all together. I dont see what is so wrong with our damage now that people are [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing for a nerf!</DIV>

Daran

06-30-2005, 12:11 AM

For all those complaining about their DPS getting nerfed etc, and how they didn't sign up for this. Heres what I would like to say. When you started your EQ character did you want to go toe to toe with the mobs and dish out the pain face to face? If you answered yes, congratulations your a fighter. When you reached level 10 did you want to use heavy armor and weapons to fight your foes? if you answered yes, congratulations your a warrior When you reached level 20 did you decide that you wanted to be more of an instinctive, violent, and reckless fighter? if you said yes, congratulations you are a Berserker. If any of your answers have changed since then, reevaluate your answers and decide which class now suits what you want to do. if you want to dodge hits and strike from behind, be a scout. if you want to be a hunter and a stalker, be a predator. if you want to live in happy happy Qeynos land, be a ranger, if you want to live in a darker more militant environment be an assassin. This is not a flame post or a "stop whining" post, When making a character most people play to get to their end result, in this case they play to be a berserker, perhaps that wasn't what you really wanted to be and you just didn't know it. <div></div>

Laereneth

06-30-2005, 03:14 AM

<P>Actually, my answers were yes, yes and yes. And at the time, as it currently is, the zerks can stand toe to toe and dish out the pain...and that is what differentiated us from the other tanks. But when they reduce our dps, they'll be removing an intergal part of our class and the reason I chose this class in the first place. Yes, I'll still be able to stand toe to toe. And yes, I'll be able to stick em in the eye. But instead of sticking them a claymore, it'll feel like I'm sticking them with a whiffle bat. Totally defeats the purpose of this class and the core idea beneath the entire thing.</P> <P>And if you look at our skill list, the vast majority of our skills are geared toward dps. So, when the nerf comes, unlike other classes, a larger portion of our skills will be impacted. Thus, I feel, while all classes are getting a restructure, the zerk will be getting hit the most. Just mho.</P> <P>Bjoern</P>

Math

07-01-2005, 04:55 AM

<P>Did you guys read the manual before you picked your class? I was SOOOO surprised when I was out parsing every other class because zerkers are SUPPOSED to be the second tank next to Guardian.</P> <P>The sub-class a zerker is in is the WARRIOR class. Heavy plate-armor, front-of-the-line, leads into battle. If that description doesn't scream tank what does? Just becuase it says "offensive buffs" doesn't mean you are going to be in the top tier DPS category. I'm surprised it took this long to nerf zerker damge.</P> <P> </P> <P>BTW... I am a 50 zerker on Guk.</P>

Laereneth

07-01-2005, 02:54 PM

<P>Well, if we want to compare notes from manuals, in the official guide, it gives the following description: Beserkers are chaotic warriors who inflict <EM>heavy damage</EM> with all manner of weapons<EM>.</EM> Their furious attacks <EM>overwhelm</EM> their opponents, whom they show no mercy.</P> <P>If that doesn't scream dps, I don't know what does. Thus, I did do my research, and I did pick the class that suits me best. And now they're breaking it. :smileysad:</P> <P>Bjoern</P>

Lild

07-01-2005, 05:08 PM

<DIV>Everyone of you that is complaining needs to chill out and wait for the changes to go live and see what really happens. </DIV>

40ma

07-01-2005, 06:37 PM

<P>all this wait til the changes go live stuff is crap. so im suppose to not say anything and let them nerf the hell outta my class? are you crazy? really! the bottom line is changes will most likely hit test 1st and we will see or hear from testers exactly what is going down wit the nerfs/changes, whatever you wanna call em. in the end if you dont complain now and let your voice be heard we will all take it in the rear then it will be too late. no mmo especially sony ever nerfs the crap out of a class then turns around and hears complaints and says ok you right lets throw em a bone. ive never seen a nerf over turned and its unlikely to start now.</P> <P> </P>

Lild

07-01-2005, 10:55 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 40mack wrote:<BR> <P>all this wait til the changes go live stuff is crap. so im suppose to not say anything and let them nerf the hell outta my class? are you crazy? really! the bottom line is changes will most likely hit test 1st and we will see or hear from testers exactly what is going down wit the nerfs/changes, whatever you wanna call em. in the end if you dont complain now and let your voice be heard we will all take it in the rear then it will be too late. no mmo especially sony ever nerfs the crap out of a class then turns around and hears complaints and says ok you right lets throw em a bone. ive never seen a nerf over turned and its unlikely to start now.</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The same crap has been repeated after every perceived Berserker nerf, which in fact every berserker nerf so far has been a correction to a skill that was not working as intended or was indeed overpowered in certain situations. Yes, I do play a berserker and I have since release. Every time SOE goes to change something before it ever hits test people are crying about how it will affect them when in fact they have no clue whatsoever about how it will affect them. Test server? No, I salute those folks for testing content before it hits my live server but they are horidly understaffed to fully test something of this magnatude, its full effect will not be seen until it goes live. We may get a feel for the changes fom test, but will you know how they affect you on a raid vs level 57+ mobs?</P> <P> </P> <P>Bottom line is you can [Removed for Content] & moan all you want but your not going to find anything out until it goes live, unless you play on test and even then you are only going to get a small piece of the picture.<BR></P>

Wrathcast

07-01-2005, 11:30 PM

<P><SPAN>Bottom line is they are screwing everyone who spent money and time to build what they advertised... SoE told us many months ago we would be this (see below) and now they want us to hit just above the Priest class?? What would SoE do to us if we didn't pay the same amount we agreed to many months ago? ... you guessed it, they would drop us like dirt!! </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=1>First group: </FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT size=1>Wizard/Warlock </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=1>Assassin/Ranger</FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT size=1>Second group: </FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT size=1>Conjurer/Necromancer (using damage pet) </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=1>Brigand/Swashbuckler</FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT size=1>Third group: </FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT size=1>Coercer/Illusionist, Conjurer/Necromancer (using tank pet) </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=1>Troubador/Dirge </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=1>Bruiser/Monk </FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT size=1>Fourth group: </FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT size=1>Berserker/Shadowknight </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=1>Paladin/Guardian</FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT size=1>Fifth group: </FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT size=1>Fury/Warden </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=1>Defiler/Mystic </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT size=1>Inquisitor/Templar</FONT></LI></UL></SPAN> <P><SPAN><IMG src="http://home.comcast.net/~old-school/zerks.JPG"><FONT color=#000000></FONT></SPAN></P>

Vulcaric0

07-02-2005, 12:06 AM

Sony should just make things like they were in the beginning. In the beginning Guardians were the only ones that could wear the vanguard armor ..why..cause they were guardians. Berzerkers could not wear vanguard armor but did way more damage...pallys could not wear vanguard but they could heal themselves and cast damage spells. When they allowed all warrior classes to wear vanguard armor they took away the balance aspect of the classes. IMHO <div></div>

Laereneth

07-02-2005, 04:31 PM

<P>What a novel idea!</P> <P>Bjoern</P>

Gandi

07-03-2005, 08:33 PM

<DIV>Ya...lets just wait and see how it ends up on the test server and pray it doesn't end up like SWG, otherwise they'll have to to condense severs just to make the game playable..lol</DIV>

Hamervelder

07-04-2005, 08:22 AM

<DIV>Tank? I wouldn't call a berzerker a tank. Aside from monks, we're the worst tanks of the entire fighter archtype.<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Buggrit wrote:<BR>if u want DPS then play a scout or mage Berserkers are tanks <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

Jvaloth

07-04-2005, 09:43 AM

<DIV>I'm sorry, but this is a game breaker for me. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I never signed on to be a guardian. I signed on to be a "Chaotic warrior who deals heavy damage". In order to do the high dmg we sacrifice a ton of hitpoints/defense using multiple zerks. We use dps to hold agro. We inflate our "dps" numbers when doing AE's. Against a single target our dps is not aweinspiring. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I grouped in Permafrost the other night with a brawler that absolutely blew my DPS away.. AND he tanked better than me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How can they justify this change? I played my toon to level 50 only to drop to a dps level just above healers??? [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is going on here?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warden, Templar, Mystic, and Conjuror all went through the Arena Solo instance and won it 1st try. I have tried 2 tiems and the best I've gotten the champ too is 50%. I even tried grouping with a lower level guy to lower the avg level of the mobs to 48 and the champ equal con and still only got him to 50%.... How the hell am I gunna beat this dude with my dps nerfed even more?????</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians are raid tanks. Zerkers are DPS tanks. Take away our DPS and we are nothing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE pull your head out before you lose a ton of loyal customers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Buff the dps of chanters and scouts and leave the tanks alone. If anything... remove our ability to use shields since we are supposed to be offensive tanks not defensive tanks. Make us go 2h or dual wield. That alone would take 800+ mitigation away from us...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What about all the adept 3's and Master 1's we spent cash on? We getting reimbursed when they change our spell lines and screw over our abilities or what??? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want some answers... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class=date_text>07-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:48 PM</span>

Buggrit

07-04-2005, 09:57 AM

im sorry but are u on crack were the 2nd best tanks in the game and when they fix guardian stacking issues we will be on par going defensive as a guardian going offensive or vice versa <div></div>

Jvaloth

07-04-2005, 12:29 PM

<DIV><SPAN class=time_text>-</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <span class=date_text>07-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:36 AM</span>

Laereneth

07-05-2005, 02:44 PM

<P>Very well put Jvaloth! My point exactly!</P> <P>But, I'd be surprised if a moderator is even reading this thread yet, more or less being able to do anything to stop the huge cogs of change. But we can wish, eh?</P> <P>Bjoern</P>

Wrathcast

07-05-2005, 06:47 PM

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jvaloth wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm sorry, but this is a game breaker for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I never signed on to be a guardian. I signed on to be a "Chaotic warrior who deals heavy damage". In order to do the high dmg we sacrifice a ton of hitpoints/defense using multiple zerks. We use dps to hold agro. We inflate our "dps" numbers when doing AE's. Against a single target our dps is not aweinspiring. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I grouped in Permafrost the other night with a brawler that absolutely blew my DPS away.. AND he tanked better than me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How can they justify this change? I played my toon to level 50 only to drop to a dps level just above healers??? [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is going on here?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warden, Templar, Mystic, and Conjuror all went through the Arena Solo instance and won it 1st try. I have tried 2 tiems and the best I've gotten the champ too is 50%. I even tried grouping with a lower level guy to lower the avg level of the mobs to 48 and the champ equal con and still only got him to 50%.... How the hell am I gunna beat this dude with my dps nerfed even more?????</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians are raid tanks. Zerkers are DPS tanks. Take away our DPS and we are nothing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE pull your head out before you lose a ton of loyal customers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Buff the dps of chanters and scouts and leave the tanks alone. If anything... remove our ability to use shields since we are supposed to be offensive tanks not defensive tanks. Make us go 2h or dual wield. That alone would take 800+ mitigation away from us...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What about all the adept 3's and Master 1's we spent cash on? We getting reimbursed when they change our spell lines and screw over our abilities or what??? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want some answers...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <SPAN class=date_text>07-03-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>10:48 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>WELL SAID!! </P> <P><SPAN>Don't do it SoE, this is not your usual "we are gonna leave" crowd. I've been with you for over 5 years and I’ve seen hundreds of changes. But if you take us to just above priests in DPS I will walk with both my accounts. And before some scout, guardian, or mage tells me not to let the door hit me in the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] on my way out.... don't worry, I'll be gone so fast it wont have a chance!</SPAN></P> <DIV><BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by Wrathcaster on <span class=date_text>07-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:49 AM</span>

TwistedFaith

07-08-2005, 04:54 PM

<P>Can I just chip in here with some thoughts from a lvl 47 Ranger.</P> <P>What exactly is it that you lot see as the role of a zerker? Is it purely a DPS role with no tanking? Is it plain tanking ability? Is it a mixture of the both, depending on the decsions you make?</P> <P>No offence but it seems a LOT of you want the best of both worlds, you want to be able to do DPS like a high end DPS class and yet be able to tank a LOT better than any of the classes who's role is dedicated to that DPS role. If that is the case, then why dont SoE get rid of ALL of your defence buffs, get rid of the armor and make you lot wear light armor? Is that what people want?</P> <P>I have a question, what would you lot say the role of a Ranger/Assasin is. As a class what skills should one of these classes bring to a group?</P> <P>Here's a breakdown of what I currently bring for the group.</P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00>1. Tracking - Is this of any use at all? Have you ever been on a raid and heard anyone say 'get a ranger/assasin we need tracking'?. The fact is with so many maps out there and spoilers tracking is a worthless skill.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00>2. Pathfinding - Sounds amazing in theory, wow lets boost the speed of the entire party. Problem is everyone is running around with J-Boots and horses,and with SoW stacking, there's no use at all to this. Again, anyone ever been in a group where someone has asked to </FONT> <FONT color=#99ff00>'get a ranger/assasin we need pathfinding'?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#99ff00>3. Evac - A great skill and very useful, no complaints from me here, but do people pick Rangers/Assasins based on evac? Also we are not the only class who gets this.</FONT></P> <P>With that in mind the Ranger/Assasins are left with DPS to fall back on. This in my opinion is where the system fails. Speaking as a Ranger I have seen Monks/Bruisers/Zerkers and even some very well kitted out Paladins out dps me. </P> <P>I know for sure that there is <FONT color=#ff6600>NO WAY </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>I can ever tank even close to any of those classes, so why should these classes be equal or in some terms better at a supposedly secondary skill for them than a primary skill for Rangers/Assasins?</FONT></P> <P>I cant see what the problem is, when the combat changes hit you will be doing more dmg than a guardian and will be able to tank better than a monk/brusier. If you choose you want to do more dmg still, you will have choices in terms of skills/weapons to increase that dmg but in term sacrafice some tanking ability, which will still be better than <FONT color=#ff6600>ANY </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>scout.</FONT></P> <P>I know for sure that I as a Ranger I never expect to be able to tank a mob, why should I? When I play I look for a tank to play with, when the combat changes come I will still do the same. </P> <P> </P>

Huna

07-08-2005, 05:15 PM

The problem is that yes, some people do want to dps as a berserker, and yes some people do want to tank as a berserker. Not to beat a dead horse, but if you look at the description of the class it makes it seem that you can somewhat flip a switch and choose if you want to tank or dps. After these changes we are going to be low dps, and 3rd or 4th in tanking without any real ability to sacrifice defense and gain dps. Most berserkers are saying they just want to do good dps with a sacrifice to tanking, or either good tanking with a sacrifice to dps. Not the best in either one. If conjurors and necromancers can flip a switch to move from the 3rd group to the 2nd group, why can't berserkers also get a switch to move from the 4th group to the 3rd group? As much as people want to dismiss it, the outdated description basically says we can do that. When I made my choice as a berserker, I read the forums that said we could do outstanding dps and tank very well, and I looked at the description of the class. Now after the changes that description will be completely inaccurate. I understand that we were overpowered, and needed to be tweaked. The main thing I don't understand is all of the other classes saying that we should be forced into a role that doesn't fit the description of our class. I just don't understand why we can't have a way to move up the dps chain by moving down the defense chain? Again, we aren't asking to move from the best tank to the best dps, just from (ok dps/good tank) to (good dps/ ok tank). <div></div>

TwistedFaith

07-08-2005, 06:22 PM

<blockquote><hr>Hunadi wrote:The problem is that yes, some people do want to dps as a berserker, and yes some people do want to tank as a berserker. Not to beat a dead horse, but if you look at the description of the class it makes it seem that you can somewhat flip a switch and choose if you want to tank or dps. After these changes we are going to be low dps, and 3rd or 4th in tanking without any real ability to sacrifice defense and gain dps. Most berserkers are saying they just want to do good dps with a sacrifice to tanking, or either good tanking with a sacrifice to dps. Not the best in either one. If conjurors and necromancers can flip a switch to move from the 3rd group to the 2nd group, why can't berserkers also get a switch to move from the 4th group to the 3rd group? As much as people want to dismiss it, the outdated description basically says we can do that. When I made my choice as a berserker, I read the forums that said we could do outstanding dps and tank very well, and I looked at the description of the class. Now after the changes that description will be completely inaccurate. I understand that we were overpowered, and needed to be tweaked. The main thing I don't understand is all of the other classes saying that we should be forced into a role that doesn't fit the description of our class. I just don't understand why we can't have a way to move up the dps chain by moving down the defense chain? Again, we aren't asking to move from the best tank to the best dps, just from (ok dps/good tank) to (good dps/ ok tank). <div></div><hr></blockquote>Arnt SoE specifically saying that you can increase your DPS based on the choices in weapons and training skill choices? I thought Moorguard specifically said that?So from what I can gather Zerkers want:1. Superb Tank - Average DPSFlip a switch, make different choices and:2. Average Tank - Superb DPSThe problem I see with this, yet again you are moving in on the DPS classes. I know this may seem unfair but I dont see any reason why a zerker can do great dps and then even though they should supposedly have less tanking ability, be able to out tank a scout, which you will do no matter what choices you get.I'd have no problems with a Zerker being at the bottom of the 3rd tier of DPS or the top of the 4th tier if they sacrafice tanking ability.BUT, even if they sacrafice tanking they should in NO WAY out dps a class who's specific role is that of DPS, because when all is said and done, whichever route you go, you will always be able to tank mobs better than any DPS class.There needs to be a significant difference between a pure DPS class and what I would call a secondary DPS class such as Zerkers. Otherwise all scouts will be in the same position as they are now, with tanks being able to take a lot more hits and them matching scouts for DPS anyway.I would class Wizards/Warlocks/Rangers/Assasins as pure DPS classes. I have stated above the utlity that Rangers have, it's minimal at best, to make up for that they need to be damm good at DPS.

Stromul

07-08-2005, 08:09 PM

What most berserkers want is to be left alone. I say revert Berserk skill to how it used to be. When you berserk your defense goes down. Fix the broken skills and tweak the base mitigation and avoidance numbers a bit and leave us alone! <div></div>

KFizzle

07-08-2005, 10:20 PM

<DIV>First let me qualify all of what i am going to say by saying that I am a 45 Zerker on the Nektulos server named Kajar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are overpowered.</DIV> <DIV><BR>We are the best tanks right now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are the best damage dealing fights from everything i've seen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We need to be nerfed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the level we are? Nope. When I group with a 45 guardian from my guild who is a GREAT MT, or pickup groups, i regularly have NO Trouble getting and maintaining agro ... even if i'm not Main Tank, and i'm not taunting. Is that a 'bad' thing? No, because with my gear I can take some wacks before its even an issue, and we usually have secondary healers around anyway. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do I think our DPS should be hit? No. Because then we'll just be a Guardian who cant tank as well and doesnt have good enough DPS to make up for it. I am all for stripping us of Vanguard armor, or capping the amount/types of armor we can use. I Think our 'buffs' are terrific which gives us a good thing, but if we can't have DPS to go along with it, why be a Berserker?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So in summation, SOE if you even give a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] what i think, strip away some of our taunts, take away our heavy armor, but PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE dont take away our DPS!</DIV>

Jvaloth

07-09-2005, 02:54 PM

<DIV>We are frightened for what the above people have clearly articulated. We signed up for this class after carefully weighing ALL of the classes and their descriptions. I felt that the Beserker would be the funnest class for me. Now they want to make us average tanks (never raid tanks) and average (below average) dps. So whats our role now? Before we could throw on a shield, spam some defensive buffs and maintain agro at the expense of dps. If we are fighting weak mobs we can go dual wield or 2hand and spam dps with no defensive worries in the world. We sacrified offense for defense and defense for offense. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now we are going to be bottom rung dps, without Guardians/Paladins tanking ability... We have no rolls in raids and a completely diminished role in groups. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can't take a class thats existed since the game was released, with thousands of people playing this class... then completely flip it upside down and do a 180' and make things perfect!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians/Pally's are Raid Tanks.</DIV> <DIV>Beserkers/SK are DPS Tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep the tanks the way they are, they have clear roles. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I wanted to play a Guardian, I woudl have ROLLED A GUARDIAN. Read the class description of beserker. It says "Wears plate armor and deals HEAVY DMG". This implys the ability to wear the best armor in the game AND deal damage. We are not raid tanks, we are dps tanks. There is a difference, perhaps not as evident in groups but when it comes to raids there is a clear and profound distinction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Up the avoidance of scouts based on agility. Give scouts quality medium armor with STR/AGI/STA Not INT AND WIS.</DIV> <DIV>UP THE DPS OF SCOUTS and add FRONTAL high damage attacks so they can actually SOLO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Up the DPS of Chanters, give them a frigg'n charm already so they can hold their own and provide DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>At worst, the only other thing they should do to Zerkers is remove our ability to wield shields. Effectively removing (depending on level) up to 800-900 mitigation. Let us cozy into our rolls as DPS tanks and take up 2handed weapons and dual wield weapons, go beserk, and kick some behind. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Will they do this? Doesnt sound like it. Sounds like we'll be guardians without the tanking ability and our dps taken away (1 step above healers? Give me a break) . Class description should read "EQ 1 Warrior" not "Beserker". This effectively kills the class that all of us signed on to play. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is unacceptable. Got my character to 50th level working my [Removed for Content] off day and night and this is what all the hard work was for?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>They still need to address the other concerns we must all be stressing about... skills/money issues. What happens to our Adept 3's and Master 1's we paid money for expecting a certain effect/result? I pay 4p for Vanquish Master 1 and now Vanquish is called "Shove" and does 50% less dmg... ? I pay 3p for Rampage Master 1 then its renamed "Temper Tantrum" and lasts only 2 seconds instead of 5 seconds... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>heh </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Leave my class alone. Fix the others.</DIV> <DIV>Leave my class alone. Fix the others.</DIV> <DIV>Leave my class alone. Fix the others.</DIV> <DIV>Leave my class alone. Fix the others.</DIV> <DIV>Leave my class alone. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

DasanW

07-09-2005, 05:21 PM

<div></div><p>Excellent points Jvaloth. While I am of the 'very' casual gamer and have not leveled my toon to 50, these proposed changes have me concerned. If are we currently labeled '2nd best tank in the game' where will we be as a class if the nerf the dps? Is that not one of the primary reasons that we can hold the immense argo, by that of dps?<span> </span>Maybe I am wrong.</p><p>When I chose the path of the zerker, I fully read through on what the class was<i> ‘supposedly’ i</i>ntended by the descriptions of SOE, and after being a part of EQL for 3 years, I thought I had a good understanding.<span> </span>I knew that I would not be the MT on a raid, but that I could group MT, be main assist on a raid, and have the ability to solo, albiet tough.<span> </span></p><p>I have to agree with a lot of the current zerkers in that “if I wanted to be the MT for raiding, I would have picked a Guardian.”<span> </span>I never had the though that I was going to be!</p><p>I have also spent some time looking into a lot of this DPS v Scouts, and for 99% of it its bunk!<span> </span>Parsing shows no proof what-so-ever.<span> </span>What buffs are being carried, with what weps, with what range, with what power, with what spells/abilities.. An assassin, at the back of a mob, <i>should</i> be able to burst dps more than me, but over a long fight, no.<span> </span>A Ranger should be able to out dps us, if at <b>RANGE</b>, but not when they are toe to toe as us.<span> </span></p><p>Ah well.. just the ramblings of a mid level zerker.</p><div></div>

Laereneth

07-09-2005, 06:24 PM

<P>Once again, someone hit the nail on the head. Well said Jvaloth!</P> <P>It's just a crying shame that after we take the extended time and effort to pick a class that is good for us, spend boat loads more time leveling it up to the 40s or 50, just to have the class completely restructured. You don't go buy a sports car, drive it for a couple months, then have the dealer swap it out for a family station wagon just because someone else doesn't like what you drive. That's ludicrous! Why do it in a game? If another class doesn't like what they are doing compared to you, then they can just reroll to your class. Why does every zerk have to take a hit out of envy? We only bring two things to the table, decent tanking via agro control and dps. If you take either away, you're just gimping the class!</P> <P>Please, SOE, read the responses here and respond! You're really hurting a huge client base! I've monitored some of the other tank forums and it's about unanimous across the board...there are extremely few tanks happy with what you're doing!</P> <P>Bjoern</P>

caine71

07-09-2005, 09:53 PM

Ok I would like to chime in as well, I'm a 42 Zerker. Ok in response to the ranger's post, u hit the nail on the head, zerkers at the moment can be either a tank or dps. But, let me extend on this theory a bit. I chose zerker because I wanted a character like in the description presented in the manual. So as my character progressed in levels, in order to do more damage, I chose str over stanima for training and racial traits, as well as items and armor stats. Therefore, I do a considerable amount more dmg, than someone who chose sta over str so they could tank. Now as far as I can tell, this is an intentional part of the gameplay, because they state in the combat overhaul that guardians who chose str, and zerks who chose sta will do the opposite of their usual intended role of tanking vs dps. So with that said, those of us who chose dps over tanking will do less dps than we have in the past, just above Paladin and Gaurdian. But those who chose tank, will actually get a better tanking abilty, this is what seems unfair. At my charactes current state, everyone picks a guardian or paladin even for a tank over me, becasue they know I went the dps route, which is fine by me. I like doing massive amounts of damage and striking fear in my enemies. But, if my dmg gets nerfed, where does that leave me? I now have a subar zerk in tanking and dps? I did not want to be only a tank or I would have rolled a guardian or Paladin. So I can reroll another character or just wait untill SOE gets some logic, or cancel my subscription, which I may indeed do? I suffered through the mid 20's -level thirty after they nerfed bloodlust, I nearly rerolled my character then, but everyone told me things got bet at 32+, so I endured. Sure enough it did, so I'am currently happy with my zerker, but if this dps nerf goes into effect I may very well say thats it. I have already been playing another online game, because of the talk of us being nerfed as is. Not to mention the fact that I'am really getting tired of camping the frekin bouncers and other 4 hr spawns!!! The game I currently play has absolutely no camping involved and is great! I won't mention the name, for fear that the might SOE may lock this post.<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I also have a low level ranger alt, and I think you forgot to mention group invis, or don't we get that? I'm by far not an expert on ranger so I could be wrong. Anyways, hopefully us dps zerks don't get nerfed, or there will probably be one less zerk out there, which is a darn shame.<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Ol'b

07-10-2005, 07:31 AM

<DIV>Here is the real reason(s) Zerkers will get hit the hardest</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. You can tank raid mobs just as good as a Gaurd (as long as a gaurd is in yer group) and you just dont know it cause popular thought has told you otherwise.</DIV> <DIV> > This has caused many gaurdians to be sporting full fabled gear, any why not the raid tank needs the best gear , right??</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. You can do as much damage if not more than some scouts</DIV> <DIV> > Most players dont know this , and parsing with complete dumbo scouts has made this worse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. There are not many of you !</DIV> <DIV> > Cant quote my server #'s but on my server popularity def goes .. Gaurd > SK > Pally> Zerker</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> In short it's very easy to nerf Zerker the hardest , there are fewer of us , with lesser gear , unknowlingly overpowered.. Either way it adds up to you being worse IN A RAID SITUATION!!! Basically theres no way your going to be able to tank as well as a gaurd (when the patch hits).. In some cases Zerks are MT's for there guild , but this wont last unless you were able to aquire a set of raid gear already if not then you wont ever get the chance.. As for DPS well who cares really , all you know is its getting worse ALONG WITH yer tankability!</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ol'boy on <span class=date_text>07-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:35 PM</span>

Eyes_of_Truth

07-10-2005, 12:09 PM

<P>I..........I am......... so tired........... of the stupid line they rip from the manual and site... the devs have stated time and time again that was simply a "LORE" aspect, trying to make the characters sound cool, it's not the freaking bible of class definition lol. And if ANYONE has a right to B*tch that their class doesnt get to match it's little discription is SUMMONERS...... im dead serious..i want my freaking summon fooooooood!! it was even mentioned in the summoner choice training lol! At least no mater what a berserker will still beable to do some ammount of damage but no mater what unless a change come my pooooooor Conjuror will never beable to get free grub! NO THAT IS A GAME BRAKE /sob sob sob</P> <P>lol but enough with da' fluff, down to bussieness. </P> <P>Your Archetype is fighter.</P> <P>Your Class is warrior.</P> <P>You subclass is berserker.</P> <P>So for your most quentessential and vital choice int he game, your archetype, you chose fighter, which plainly spelt it out that your gona be face to face with mob, relying on physical damage (notice it doesnt say to what degree) and you will PROTECT the weaker classes by taunting. To me and the majority of litterate people this means that you "tank" wich means hold aggro to allow others to perform their rolls. With out a tank you have a very difficult group situation as no one sole person will beable to hold aggro. Taunting is the fighter's primary role, and defensing allies.</P> <P>So you chose Warrior... by that you chose to take damage by way of mitigation of physical blows (rather than avoid or withstand magical attacks) and you chose to have the best protection skill that blocks for players.</P> <P>So now it's level 20 time... so guardian or berserker...</P> <P>Sub-classes are the icing on the cake. You chose defense by going Fighter, and you choose physical mitigation by going Warrior. Now, imo the main differance ina Guardian and a Berserker should be abour 4 differing skills and at most only a 10% deferance in taking damage and dealing damage from the base of Warrior. Guardians need to have the best Guard ability that allows a very high chance to take damage for an allie, and mitigate that damage that you intercept. For a berserker, imo they should get a better counter-attack, thus increasing their damage, and perhaps their guard ability would not mitigate the damage they intercept as well as a guardian but have a chance to riposite the intercepted blow. That kind of differance makes them differnet enough to warrent two different classes, without making one the difinitive "BEST" tank. Giving Guardians better group HP buffs and giving Berserker better group +damage buffs would also add to their diversity without unbalancing it. Their attacks <when not considering their buffs> should have the EXACT same base damage.</P> <P>Im terribly sorry if you made a berserker strictly for damage, but if you paid attention to your most important desions, thoughs being your Warrior and Fighter choices, you would have forsaw that your sub-class choice wasnt going to instantly quientupple your damage output. You did the choice completely backwards, you prejudistly choose berserker based upon the name or from what one source of outdated data, one line even, to base your 50 levels <and beyond> of your character, all the while ignoreing the warning signs of your characters developement form fighter to warrior to eventauly berserker that your class was never ment to have an increably superior personal DPS. To be honest you deluded yourself into thinking "well, now im a warrior, but at 20 im nolonger a warrior, im a berserker!!"</P> <P>Sorry to seemingly insult you or your some what poor choices, but your not a butterfly.... your not going to forma cacoon at 19 and emerge frmoa warrior tank to a berserker dps... cant realy think of a simpler analogy...</P> <P>Sorry to all you level 50 monk/bruiser/sk/berserkers that feel your role is damage because according to fighter's discription it's not.</P> <P>And as for raids, it's much better to allow multiple tanks to divide the damage amongst them, allowing healers to heal smaller, wide blows then single spike blows that can instantly kill. Forming battalions of fighters should be an option in this game... i mean honestly... how are we supsoed to expect one "ubah" tank to go all Rambo infront of a dragon while the rest of the fighters cheer him on whilst wacking on the mobs [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]?? I think they shoudl all get a piece of the action when tanking and make it a group effort. Require them to be within a certani small radius of eachother for them to divide the damage, and AOE skills would be excluded from this as they hit them all now anyway.</P> <P>Feel free for non "RAGED" responses to my post, anything that is pure flaming hate replies ill simply ignore but anyhting possitive and constructive im more than willing to read pages upon pages.</P> <P>Toodles!</P> <P><oh and fyi i have a Conjuror (and have also played almsot every Qeynos based class with exception of rouge/shaman) if you couldnt guess and we have been completly low on DPS rating since launch, you should be glad at how well you we're doing for atleast that period, my conjuror was to be my main but when i saw the rate at which change was happening i shelfed him and made a warlock. I know it's hard to accept change <or in my case lack-there-of, but learn to adapt, as it's one of man kinds few GOOD qualities? You dont know how often i wished my Conjuror had the mages core role of damage. Worst case senerio they [Removed for Content] your damage, you still have your primary role of taunting to fall back on, but my conjuror has had absolutly no "crutch" for about 9 months i think it has been because without damage, little int he way of CC beyond tank pet which means we loose damage of a currently broken DPS pet...and this list goes on, with exception of training abilities conjuror has no nuke besides level 12 one from summoner days, and besides petrify, we have no truely good spells></P> <P>PS- im sure there are alot of realy nice, calm, and intelligent berserkers out there, even if the immature people tend to flock to the class as a "macho" think, as would younger players probly (im 16 and can surpress such diseriers so im trying to not sterio type age into this lol ) but most berserkers that post atlest seem to fit their class to well... and by that i mean they love to <FONT color=#cc0000 size=5>RAGE!!!!!!!!!!!! </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#cc0000 size=5><FONT color=#ffffff size=3>But to thoughs who are productive and constructive, i hope something is done that can truely compensate your loss of damage, but i dont think it will devistatingly brake your class ,unless you we're trying to perform a role ythat our archetype was not designed for above another archetypes role that is specificaly designed for damage, anyway, goodluck in your quest for balance!</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=3>Toodles!</FONT></P>

Raybour

07-10-2005, 10:45 PM

Again, I hear ya'all about wantin' t' have more DPS, an' all - I wish we did. An' I wish Zerkers din't hafta wear heavy armor an' tank an' all - but I think I shoulda seen this comin' when I chose th' class - so I blames m'self, not SOE. Fer instance, I see folk bein' mad about <font color="#ffff00">SOE's description of our class</font>, an' I have jus' a couple points t' make: 1. Same description that says "<font color="#ffff00">chaotic warriors who inflict heavy damage with all manner of weapons</font>..." also says "<font color="#ffff00">Heavy</font>" under armor. I fer one din't want Heavy Armor, but I took th' class anywho an' din't complain about it much. The armor choice an' th' fact that it was in the same track as Guard was one signal that this weren't no classic "berserker" of yore - an' I shoulda seen that comin'. I betcha if'n we had all the DPS of Monks/Bruisers (at least) there wouldn't be no complaints about our Heavy Armor. Meantime, them monks an' such can't wear our armor, an' they prolly wouldn't mind the extra mitigation. 2. We look'n at our class's description alot to say why we oughta be so high on DPS, but what about th' other class descriptions? Example is Bruisers: "[P]owerful thugs who use raw physical force to <font color="#ffff00">pummel their opponents into submission</font>. They have transformed their bodies into <font color="#ffff00">brutal weapons designed to inflict suffering on their enemies</font>." OK, so what's better? "inflict heavy damage" or "pummel ... into submission ... [and] brutal weapons designed to inflict suffering on their enemies"? Or Wizards, who "<font color="#ffff00">can inflict startling devastation upon their enemies</font>." Hey, here's some news - most classes have descriptions that make them sound tough - that's a gaming company trying to make the classes sound cool! What's SOE going to do, describe zerkers as "chaotic warriors who inflict OK damage - but not as good damage as some others but more than priests - with all manner of weapons"? Who would want to play that class? Finally, we DO get t' wear Heavy Armor. The higher DPS classes have no defense when they pull aggro. So, I feel bad too - but we shoulda seen this comin' an' it really be a matter of SOE mis-namin' our class. "Berserker" jus' ain' the right term. I ain' too creative, but mebbe "Attacker" or somethin' woulda been less misleadin'. Meantime, I be playin' my zerker anywho. <div></div>

Pnaxx

07-11-2005, 12:45 AM

<DIV>will be interesting to see wut happens...won't it?</DIV>

Huna

07-11-2005, 05:48 PM

Just to speak on the heavy armor vs. light armor issue. If they actually get avoidance tanking and mitigation tanking working the way they should, then monks and brawlers won't need heavy armor, because they tank by avoidance not mitigation. Also, everything is speculation right now, since the changes haven't happened, but some people need to think of the end result and stop mixing possible changes in with the way things work now. Remember that it's a revamp, so you have to think about a "perfect world" until we actually see the way it all works. Forget about the way it works now, and look at the way they say it's going to work. <div></div>

Huna

07-11-2005, 06:16 PM

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<p>I..........I am......... so tired........... of the stupid line they rip from the manual and site... the devs have stated time and time again that was simply a "LORE" aspect, trying to make the characters sound cool, it's not the freaking bible of class definition lol. And if ANYONE has a right to B*tch that their class doesnt get to match it's little discription is SUMMONERS...... im dead serious..i want my freaking summon fooooooood!! it was even mentioned in the summoner choice training lol! At least no mater what a berserker will still beable to do some ammount of damage but no mater what unless a change come my pooooooor Conjuror will never beable to get free grub! NO THAT IS A GAME BRAKE /sob sob sob</p><------ text removed to save space ------> <p>PS- im sure there are alot of realy nice, calm, and intelligent berserkers out there, even if the immature people tend to flock to the class as a "macho" think, as would younger players probly (im 16 and can surpress such diseriers so im trying to not sterio type age into this lol ) but most berserkers that post atlest seem to fit their class to well... and by that i mean they love to <font color="#cc0000" size="5">RAGE!!!!!!!!!!!! </font></p><p><font color="#cc0000" size="5"><font color="#ffffff" size="3">But to thoughs who are productive and constructive, i hope something is done that can truely compensate your loss of damage, but i dont think it will devistatingly brake your class ,unless you we're trying to perform a role ythat our archetype was not designed for above another archetypes role that is specificaly designed for damage, anyway, goodluck in your quest for balance!</font></font></p><p><font size="3">Toodles!</font></p><div></div><hr></blockquote>For someone that wants a non "raged" response, you surely aren't going about it the right way. Your post is more "raged" than most of the other posts I've seen from berserkers. Nowhere in the class description for a fighter does it say that you won't be able to do high damage, and if you are going by the primary descriptions, the scout description only mentions opportunistic damage, nowhere does it say "higher damage than the fighter class, but less damage than the mage class, and oh yeah higher damage than the priest class". The whole issue is that non-berserkers don't want berserkers to be able to do good damage and tank at the same time. Most berserkers agree that they shouldn't be able to, so they want to be able to switch "modes". Again, by switching modes, you wouldn't be able to be the highest in either mode, but you should be acceptable.P.S. you aren't going to get very many positive responses when you imply that people are illiterate (while appearing to be borderline yourself). Many people made choices on their class based on class descriptions, forums, articles, etc... Now after the combat changes, some of those descriptions, articles, and even past in game observations aren't going to be correct. I personally will be ok even if we lose lots of dps and become a second rate guardian with no other bonuses. I don't think it would be very fair though, and I honestly don't know if it will turn out that way.Last thing, for the people saying that you should be happy that your class was good for a while because my "X" class is broken. Do you think it's fair to break our class and fix yours? I've never been ok with any of the classes being broken, and I honestly hope they fix all of them not just my class. I'm planning on playing this game for a long time, so I'd like to know that the choice I made will still be ok a year from now. That's why we are having these discussions before the changes, we want sony to know that if they break our class we will be gone, but we don't want to leave, so please don't break our class.</span><div></div>

electron

07-11-2005, 06:39 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>Hamervelder wrote:<div>Tank? I wouldn't call a berzerker a tank. Aside from monks, we're the worst tanks of the entire fighter archtype.</div><hr></blockquote> Holy crap dude what kind of logic did you use to draw this conclusion? I think by now we've established that not only are zerkers tanks, but [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] good one's at that. IMO much better than a guardian. It's because we're so [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing good we're gonna have to solo the nerf-bat. I don't blame them,(although I really don't want to see our class get ruined <span>:smileysad:</span>). But guardian's are busy [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing and whining thinking they should be the better tank, because to them apparently all that matters is mitigation and HP. In reality the berserker has some very good advantages over the guardian. It's a slightly.... SLIGHTLY different tank strategy, but a successful one at that. And to the dude that makes a berserk thinking it's a DPS class is gonna be dissapointed, same for anyone that considers a zerker primarily DPS.... you're an idiot! <span>:robotmad:</span> We all made a choice at level 20, and so far, I haven't regretted mine. Also, about that Lore written for classes to make them sound cooler.... ya [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] right I think our classes should resemble that lore somewhat. I wouldn't say a Templar is a hard-core soul-eatting demon, ripping his enemies apart with dual wielding 2handed axes and breathing fire from his mouth whilst healing his comrades if that class couldn't do things like that. It just wouldn't make any sense!</span><div></div>

TwistedFaith

07-11-2005, 09:44 PM

<blockquote><hr>Hunadi wrote:<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Eyes_of_Truth wrote:<p>I..........I am......... so tired........... of the stupid line they rip from the manual and site... the devs have stated time and time again that was simply a "LORE" aspect, trying to make the characters sound cool, it's not the freaking bible of class definition lol. And if ANYONE has a right to B*tch that their class doesnt get to match it's little discription is SUMMONERS...... im dead serious..i want my freaking summon fooooooood!! it was even mentioned in the summoner choice training lol! At least no mater what a berserker will still beable to do some ammount of damage but no mater what unless a change come my pooooooor Conjuror will never beable to get free grub! NO THAT IS A GAME BRAKE /sob sob sob</p><------ text removed to save space ------> <p>PS- im sure there are alot of realy nice, calm, and intelligent berserkers out there, even if the immature people tend to flock to the class as a "macho" think, as would younger players probly (im 16 and can surpress such diseriers so im trying to not sterio type age into this lol ) but most berserkers that post atlest seem to fit their class to well... and by that i mean they love to <font color="#cc0000" size="5">RAGE!!!!!!!!!!!! </font></p><p><font color="#cc0000" size="5"><font color="#ffffff" size="3">But to thoughs who are productive and constructive, i hope something is done that can truely compensate your loss of damage, but i dont think it will devistatingly brake your class ,unless you we're trying to perform a role ythat our archetype was not designed for above another archetypes role that is specificaly designed for damage, anyway, goodluck in your quest for balance!</font></font></p><p><font size="3">Toodles!</font></p><div></div><hr></blockquote>For someone that wants a non "raged" response, you surely aren't going about it the right way. Your post is more "raged" than most of the other posts I've seen from berserkers. Nowhere in the class description for a fighter does it say that you won't be able to do high damage, and if you are going by the primary descriptions, the scout description only mentions opportunistic damage, nowhere does it say "higher damage than the fighter class, but less damage than the mage class, and oh yeah higher damage than the priest class". The whole issue is that non-berserkers don't want berserkers to be able to do good damage and tank at the same time. Most berserkers agree that they shouldn't be able to, so they want to be able to switch "modes". Again, by switching modes, you wouldn't be able to be the highest in either mode, but you should be acceptable.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>No the whole issue is that zerkers no matter what choices they make still seem vastly overpowered compared to other classes. This in turn renders classes like the ranger class useless. Along comes the zerker in dps mode, with more dps and tanking ability than any scout. Next day he's back tanking in a group. I was in a raid in CoD against Rognog, the dps chart comes up and yet again the three zerkers had beaten every single Ranger for dps, why the hell even have rangers if you have these uber tanks who seem to be able to out dps the scout classes and also tank like demons.

Huna

07-11-2005, 10:00 PM

<span><blockquote><hr>valleyboy1 wrote:No the whole issue is that zerkers no matter what choices they make still seem vastly overpowered compared to other classes. This in turn renders classes like the ranger class useless. Along comes the zerker in dps mode, with more dps and tanking ability than any scout. Next day he's back tanking in a group. I was in a raid in CoD against Rognog, the dps chart comes up and yet again the three zerkers had beaten every single Ranger for dps, why the hell even have rangers if you have these uber tanks who seem to be able to out dps the scout classes and also tank like demons.<hr></blockquote> Yet again, you're talking about the way it is now. We are talking about the way it will be, and the way we all perceive that it should be. So, basically everyone other than berserkers are perfectly ok with sony screwing up and making a bad decision that nerfs us into uselessness? Just because we had it so good for so long. How mad would you have been if the 3 berserkers were doing moderate dps, a little behind the rangers, but not quite comparable? That's all I'm asking for, I don't want to beat rangers and all the other "dps" classes, I just want to be close enough that in a pinch or certain situations I can hold my own and have decent dps (giving up the tanking ability).</span><div></div>

Eyes_of_Truth

07-11-2005, 11:48 PM

<P>Im hoping that berserkers get a DPS boost in the form of group haste+ CA damage boost by 5-20%, and reduced personal damage from their CA then what they are now. That way in th right group they could bring a load of extra damage, less then a good bard would, but enough to amke them the superior choice for a melee havy group. Also, powerfull riposte skills that temporaraly increase your riiposte chance by alot, icnreasing your damage while being rather defenseive too, but neither too extream.</P> <P>Toodles!</P> <p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class=date_text>07-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:49 PM</span>

TwistedFaith

07-12-2005, 11:40 AM

<blockquote><hr>Hunadi wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>valleyboy1 wrote:No the whole issue is that zerkers no matter what choices they make still seem vastly overpowered compared to other classes. This in turn renders classes like the ranger class useless. Along comes the zerker in dps mode, with more dps and tanking ability than any scout. Next day he's back tanking in a group. I was in a raid in CoD against Rognog, the dps chart comes up and yet again the three zerkers had beaten every single Ranger for dps, why the hell even have rangers if you have these uber tanks who seem to be able to out dps the scout classes and also tank like demons.<hr></blockquote> Yet again, you're talking about the way it is now. We are talking about the way it will be, and the way we all perceive that it should be. So, basically everyone other than berserkers are perfectly ok with sony screwing up and making a bad decision that nerfs us into uselessness? Just because we had it so good for so long. How mad would you have been if the 3 berserkers were doing moderate dps, a little behind the rangers, but not quite comparable? That's all I'm asking for, I don't want to beat rangers and all the other "dps" classes, I just want to be close enough that in a pinch or certain situations I can hold my own and have decent dps (giving up the tanking ability).</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Sorry I just dont see what the problem is the with combat changes. You will still be able to tank as well as you can now. For those of you that dont know, Zerkers have no problems tanking, and I regularly group with one with no issues at at all.As for DPS you, will still be better tha Guardians and all the healer classes. As for zerkers doing moderate dmg and being a little bit behind rangers, sorry but I will still be annoyed. The predator classes sole purpose is DPS, utlity has been sacraficied for this one purpose and i'll be damm annoyed if yet again we have the same issues with tanks even getting close to a pure dps classes dps. After all a Ranger/Assasin cant tank at all, so why should a Zerker be able to tank great (which they will be able to) and also come close to what is supposedly a pure dps based class.I think the combat changes will be a huge step in the right direction, for way too long the entire scout class has been left out in this game with tanks being the uber class, why do you think there are so many tanks on the servers.

Golelo

07-12-2005, 02:31 PM

After being used as a tissue paper by the Pit Champion, and then reading this I cancelled. Another useless class in SOE's large arsenal of useless classes.

pharacyde

07-12-2005, 02:41 PM

<P>Hi,</P> <P>Well I think the most people are complaining about their dps in other classes are ignorant .. </P> <OL> <LI>I dont do much dps said the paladin with a one hander ... </LI> <LI>My dps sucks says the monk with no adept III's </LI> <LI>The bruiser is [Removed for Content] when a berserker with all adpet III's for attacks spells beats him ...</LI> <LI>...</LI></OL> <P>Why do berserker have to pay their dps for the ignorance of some people who whine about it ?</P> <P>When I started my berserker, I saw that my dps was very poor, under 100 dps. I started to work on getting higher dps. So I focused on STR and upgrading my attack spells to adept III. Still even then Bruisers and Monk did more dps then me. I was around 150 dps then. So I kept trying to find better ways to do more dps. And then one day I started out different weapons and also upgraded my str a bit more to hit 200+ self buffed. And suddenly I was able to out dps any fighter in riads. I did 200 dps or more. </P> <P>What I am trying to say, is that a normal berserker doesn't do more damage then a normal bruiser/monk. A good berserker doesn't do more damage then a monk/bruiser. A berserker who worked his [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] off to get his STR up to 200+ self buffed and a very good weapon beats a normal monk/bruiser.</P> <P>So now other classes start being a bit more willing to work your dps and dont think it's a gift from god SoE ... Cause that is what you guys are asking now, PLZ SoE we are lazy give us dps as it was stated in the manual ... Djees where is the fun in the game ... I was soo happy when I could prove a berserker could do more damage then the average monk. Balance ... Compare the average monk to the average berserker and then start whining ...</P> <P>Sybryn lvl 50 berserker / Vexia lvl 42 warlock / Askuz lvl 40 templar / Pharacyde lvl 23 Guardian</P> <P>PS : oh yeah I played alot of classes and I know why monks do dps ... but that's fo you to figure it out, as I did for my berserker </P>

Eyes_of_Truth

07-12-2005, 11:58 PM

<P>Thats very cool that you managed to do that, but the key problem is this, you art following the golden rule in eq2, your acheytype is your primary function, your class is your secondary function, and your sub-class further defines your secondary function with a few SMALL additions from your counterpart's sub-class.</P> <P>Primary role of the following archetypes:</P> <P>Fighter = Protecting weaker defensed archetypes and aggro managment</P> <P>Priest = Keep fighter alive and make sure group doesnt die, by way of healing, and increase their stats (buffs)</P> <P>Scout = Use physical attacks to damage your foes, disarming traps (needs higher importance imo)</P> <P>Mage = Use magical attacks to damage your foes, and increase group's stats</P> <P> </P> <P>Now when you choose your class, your secondairy ability emerges.</P> <P>Fighters: all will contune to ahve same base HP (affected by stamina) and same taunting power, with different 2ndary effects on their taunt</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><looking for more ideas in fighter combat utility along with scouts></FONT></P> <P>Warrior = Heavy mitigation with armor, ability to tank scout mobs the best, and the ability to guard your allies from harm, medium dps in comparison to other fighters</P> <P>Crusader = Medium mitigation with armor, heavy ability to resist spell damage, ability to tank mage mobs the best, and ability to buff and protect allies with wards, lowest dps in compairison to other fighters (but still beating out the top priest)</P> <P>Brawler = Light mitigation with armor, high avoidance chance, ability to tank fighter mobs (that bypass mitigation) best, slight DPS improvment over other fighters (because of the lack of a defensive hand held aka shield or some other device to increase their defensive paramiters) and ability to lower group member's hate gain</P> <P>Mages: all will have the same base nuke, just of different resist type, and each gets a set of abilties that they do the best, but the other mages can also perform</P> <P>Sorcerer = Heaviest spike damage, average mage fire nuke plus seprit nuke that does alot of ice damage at a hgh power cost. fire/ice buffs, medium damage dots(lower mobs spell avoided aka complete resist chance), a power granting skill that stuns them. Weakest summoned swarm pets. Single target mezz for high power cost and long reuse, and aoe mezz that stuns them for durration.</P> <P>Summoner = Average mage magic based nuke and buffs, Heaviest DOT damage(debuff attacted to them that cripple a mobs magical defenses), a power summoning shard (no hp cost), and a earthen pet to tank for them, and supieror summoned swarm pets. Single target mezz for high power cost and long reuse, and aoe mezz that stuns them for durration.</P> <P>Enchanter = Average mage mental based nuke and buffs, medium DOT damage, best power regeneration (breese), single target fast cast, cant be interupted mess that costs low power, group mess that while costing alot of power, doesnt stun the enchanter. Medium damage from swarmpets. Augmentation spell that increases target's CA/Spell damage by 15-25% + haste.</P> <P>Scouts: all will have same basic flank attack that lowers the targets atributes differently. <FONT color=#ff0000>< i need more ideas form people for combat utility for rogues and preds!></FONT></P> <P>Predator = Highest spike damage from single skills (shadowbalde), snares that also lower target's avoidance, dot debuffs that lower target's agility. <FONT color=#ff0000><insert any ideas for predator combat utility here></FONT></P> <P>Rogue = Medium spike damage from single strikes(back stab), debuffs that greatly lower's target's armor, debuff that lowers target's strength and stamina, single target mess (be it by looks or by mugging), aoe melee attack with short reuse timer <FONT color=#ff0000><and im outa ideas here, please help me! need more combat utility for rogues!></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Bard = no extra physical attacks other than the scout generic flank attack (bard's lowers mental resists), medium daamge mental DD, medium dmage mental based group dot song (would bea nice addition imo) and group song buff that increase each group member's CA/Spell damage by 20-30% + attack haste. Group power regen song. </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000><think this makes bards rockin, but if anyone ahs more ideas for them also gladely needed!></FONT></P> <P>Priests: all would have same direct heal power:heal ratio and ammout, but each classes heal also cures a type of alliment.</P> <P>Cleric = Reactive heals that heal when target is struck, divine damage nukes that deal double damage on undead <proposed, not currently of course> best mitigation buffs of the priests, has reverse daamge shields that heal players attakcing the mob. Debuffs target's AC and arcane ressits and Stamina. Can wear heavy armor <later on atleast>, their direct heal cures arcane and trauma</P> <P>Druid = Regeneration heals that provide the best power: heal ratio of the priest class's special heals because it takes time to work, best avoidance buffs, damage shields that hurt attacking foes, poison dot (instect swarm), and ice nukes. Debuffs target's Avodance and elemental resists and agility. their direct heal cures elemental and trauma.</P> <P>Shaman = Wards that protect the target from alot of spiked damage, slighltly less power:heal efficant as clerics reactive or druids regeneration because it is all up front protection, buffs (i would call them Seals of the ---- line of spells, aka Seal of the Ancients) increases targets spell avoidance and mitigation. Debuffs target's CA damage, slows target's attack speed, and lowers target's strength. Their direct heal cures noxious and trauma</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><optional idea></FONT></P> <P>Do like they had in the beggining of beta, where they each had a ward, reactive, and regeneration, but some classes we allow better than others. </P> <P>cleric = Best reactive, medium regenration, worst ward</P> <P>druid = best regeneration, medium ward, worst reactive</P> <P>shaman = best ward, medium reactive, worst regeneration</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000><keep in mind that is optional and i know why some would NOY want it to be that way, just throwing that out there></FONT></P> <P>I am trying to keep their core roles intact, and add definition by adding secondairy effects. Secondairy effects, like an enchanter's breeze for instance, are NOT your characters primary function, and should never exceed said function in importance. The Secondairy functions are ment to complement and increase the primary functions of the group. (likepower regen healping healing and damageing, or bard/encahnter's attack boosting spells increasing groups damage)</P> <P>Toodles!</P><p>Message Edited by Eyes_of_Truth on <span class=date_text>07-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:02 PM</span>

Laereneth

07-13-2005, 01:45 AM

<P>When the dps goes out the window, the tanking ability of the zerk will also. Right now, our claim to fame is our ability to hold agro. We don't have heals, we don't have wards, we don't have the higest mitigation buffs. What we do have, is one of the best agro generating tanks due to dps. So what will be our nich once the dps gets nerfed?</P> <P>We'll see, but I foresee all those dps classes that are complaining about fighter dps, will next be complaining that they can't use their dps becuase the newly nerfed fighters can't maintain agro. If they're going to nerf our dps, they need to double or triple our taunt agro.</P> <P>Bjoern</P>

Eyes_of_Truth

07-13-2005, 02:04 AM

<P>All tanks should hold aggro the same. Im hoping thatis implementied in the combat revamp, as aggro control is part of fighter's archetypal role. Just lke healing, it shuld be equill across the 3 classes (direct heals that is)</P> <P>Berserker should be no better and no worse at holding aggro than any other fighter. While how they Tank can varry greatly, the taunting # is a constant varriable.</P> <P>IMO aggro from damage ability shouldnt be a big enough differance with the fighter class to "need to have a high dps to maintain aggro", or else the best "taunters" in the game would be Predators and sorcerers lol.</P> <P>Ask for a better overall fighter taunt system boost. I think they need it. Granted that some classes seem excellent a keeping aggro currently, some (either by player flaw or class defect) do not hold aggro equilly, which is part of the "all fighters can do their core role equilly) bit. They need to amke taunting equill accross the board on fighters, add class and sub-class defining extras on the taunt, like a small damage boost for berserker, small damage reduction to guardian's target, small self heal for palad, small disease damage life tap for shadowknight, small avoidance boost for monks, and small damage increase for bruiser. Allthese little effects would be a mini-effect tact on to your taunt, to add diversity.</P> <P>Well hope you liked this idea...</P> <P>Toodles!</P>

RexTenebrarum

07-13-2005, 01:35 PM

<P>Eyes.. I do believe you post your ideas with the best intentions, but commenting on a class you haven't even played isn't giving you any credebility or support for them. I'm refering to <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=21019&a#M21019" target=_blank>this post</A> where you say which classes you have and play. Although I now better understand your bias towards mages , it doesn't explain how you can comment on things you haven't even seen in game. Don't take this as a flame on your level, but most subclasses really come into their own past 40.. and will continue to grow and diversify when they raise the level cap to 60. But at the same time that is also my fear.. If they make the subclasses too much alike (based on archtype) , there will be no incentive to play a different subclass as they will all be the same. One of my alts is a bruiser (lvl40) and will probably hit 50 in a week or 3, so is this char doomed? Will it play the same as my 50 zerker after the changes (aside from some visual fluff) ? As you can tell I prefer the offensive role over the tanking, so why would I be pushed in a 'tanking only' role with the combat changes? I have a medium level warlock/ranger/mystic/necro and brigand but they don't fit my playstyle very well.. I like to play them from time to time but it's not the same feeling I get when I play my fighters (brigand is the exception <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )..and this feeling has nothing to do with DPS or CA's. I can't explain, but I'm sure others have the same thing when playing their scout or priest or mage..I know people that play the 6 different subclasses of the same archtype, but they refuse to play another archtype... do they need to be punished becasue they don't want to pick another archtype? </P> <P>Scouts and mages will still feel different after the combat changes I think (spread out over 3 groups on chart), but I'm afraid priests (1 group) and fighters (2groups) are going to be too much alike to hold the interest of people and make them want to level different subclasses of the same archtype..</P> <P>But I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it turns out. I've had a great time in this game and as MG said.. If I don't like the way it is going I can always leave..</P> <P>PS. I agree on your other post about the test server..</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

caine71

07-14-2005, 01:42 AM

Exactly my point as well, the reason us Berserkers are doing more dps on occasion than Rangers and some other classes is because we geared our Berserker that way!! If I group with a Ranger that knows what he is doing I rarely out dps him still. Also, did any of you take into consideration that some race/class combinations will do more dmg than others for crying out loud! An Ogre Berserker who focuses on str is going to do more damage than a Halfling Ranger most times. I'am so fed up with people whining about my class, what would you prefer, a freakin damage sponge that just stands there and relies on the other group members to kill the named mob? Also, SOE's response to the class descriptions not being an actual depiction of how the class should play, but rather a lore description, is a cop out plain and simple. SOE refuses to admit their major mistakes until months later if at all. I'm also tired of you frekin trollers. I never go into the other class boards and scream for them to be nerfed. If I do make any comments, it ones of empathy, I would never agree that a class needs nerfed. Why can't SOE understand that some people play their classes different than others and therefor get different results? I guess I'am asking for too much, god forbid SOE use logic.

Daun

07-14-2005, 09:00 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> caine71 wrote:<BR>Exactly my point as well, the reason us Berserkers are doing more dps on occasion than Rangers and some other classes is because we geared our Berserker that way!! If I group with a Ranger that knows what he is doing I rarely out dps him still. Also, did any of you take into consideration that some race/class combinations will do more dmg than others for crying out loud! An Ogre Berserker who focuses on str is going to do more damage than a Halfling Ranger most times. I'am so fed up with people whining about my class, what would you prefer, a freakin damage sponge that just stands there and relies on the other group members to kill the named mob? Also, SOE's response to the class descriptions not being an actual depiction of how the class should play, but rather a lore description, is a cop out plain and simple. SOE refuses to admit their major mistakes until months later if at all. I'm also tired of you frekin trollers. I never go into the other class boards and scream for them to be nerfed. If I do make any comments, it ones of empathy, I would never agree that a class needs nerfed. Why can't SOE understand that some people play their classes different than others and therefor get different results? I guess I'am asking for too much, god forbid SOE use logic. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I agree, there have been plenty of times when I'm in a group and I'm spamming my skills/combat arts while the scouts in my group aren't even using their skills and I barely outdamage them, yet they would complain that this game isn't balanced. The truth of the matter is that these scouts could easily outdamage me if they only used there skills instead of auto-attacking throughout the fight. <BR> <p>Message Edited by Daunte on <span class=date_text>07-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:08 AM</span>

Nosnem

07-15-2005, 02:03 AM

<DIV> <P>I have so much to say about this..but I would only rehash what ahs been said before. My only complaint is that if your being out dps’d by a zerker its probably because the parser takes into account all damage and zerkers do AOEs a lot just like a warlock out dps’s a Wizzie when several targets are in mob but a single target mob all Wizzie DPS.</P> <P> </P> <P>If that isn’t it your playing your scout class like a noob.</P> <P> </P> <P>I am not to sure about zerkers being able to tank as well as a guardian during Raids because someone said if a gfurdian is in the grp it will make the zerker tank a x4 raid….</P> <P> </P> <P>Well if you mean the guardians mitigation buffs..well they are all broke so a guardian would help a zerker as much as you think. I have been in a grp with a guardian and my health and mitigation were no where near his. As far as being more agile..well I don’t reaaly see myself dodging or parry against Vazgok all that often.</P> <P> </P> <P>So I have to wonder how you think Zerkers are even close to Guards as a raid tank.. Lesson our DPS and you make us worthless.</P> <P> </P> <P>The only point of the game to last forever is raiding if you nerf our raiding abilities we become usless..Then we are gone.</P> <P> </P> <P>Like I said ..if you are being out dps’s by zerkers perhaps you need to gear up on strength, potions,weapons, and adept 3s..And learn how to use the parser.</P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P> </P> <P>Anyway I have built my character up to be mainly dps and the champion just tore throw me in Split Paw. So obviously my so called tanking abilities are not great. I have fabl;ed gear too so it sint my gear and I have purchased many adept 3s with hard work.</P> <P> </P> <P>You gonna give all the money back. Ill probably find some fool to buy my zerker and Ill leave the game.</P> <P> </P> <P>I have much more to say but I am at work so I should probably get back to it.</P></DIV>

Jvaloth

07-15-2005, 03:53 AM

<P>Yup, there are plenty of scouts that dont know what the hell they are doing.</P> <P> </P> <P>I have a 50 zerker and a 48 assassin. Time and time again I'm facing the mob and have a clean view of the scout at the mobs rear. I watch and see that alot of scouts don't maximize their dps with the multitude of back attacks that stealth you so you can land heavier hits. They just stand back there with auto attack on and occasionally use their bows. I noticed their power pool is full alot too... [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] my assassin's power is always low because I spam non stop damage...</P> <P> </P> <P>I wonder if these guys have figured out that you do the stealth attack, turn atttack OFF, becomein invisible, then land the big hit?? How about non stop Ringing Blow's (if your group isnt actively working HO's like so few do these days). All these things add to dps and quite honestly, the people that know how to play their DPS Class, will out DPS me.</P> <P> </P> <P>Too many noobs wanting instant DPS without doing the work for it. Just because you chose a scout doesnt mean you will instantly be better than tanks. You have to use the skills in your arsenal and use them correctly (i.e. taking advantage of oppurtunities per the class description, properly setting up your big hits with pierce debuffs etc etc).</P> <P>Essentially they need to simply buff up the scouts ability to avoid or mitigate damage, add some frontal attacks so scouts can do decent damage and still solo, and up their auto attack dps, and add soem freaking quality medium armor that has str/agi/sta instead of all this int/wis crap. Its [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] that scouts have to wear light armor in order to get stats they can use... If a warrior can do 60 dmg a hit with a SBD (based on strength), I think a scout should be able to do equal dmg with it (based on agility).</P> <P> </P> <P>Fix scouts, leave Beserkers alone.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

Chog

07-16-2005, 08:04 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jvaloth wrote:<BR> <DIV>I'm sorry, but this is a game breaker for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I never signed on to be a guardian. I signed on to be a "Chaotic warrior who deals heavy damage". In order to do the high dmg we sacrifice a ton of hitpoints/defense using multiple zerks. We use dps to hold agro. We inflate our "dps" numbers when doing AE's. Against a single target our dps is not aweinspiring. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>You signed on to be a Fighter => Warrior => Berserker. Berserker is an offensive warrior, do more damage then a Guardian but your primary role is still to tank. How do we sacrifice health / defense? Going berserk does not affect defense or health, all berserk does is increase our DPS. Zerks use "normal" taunts and the taunting blow line to hold agro, any DPS class can tear agro from a zerk if they want to if the Zerker does not use any taunts. AE damage does increase our DPS drasticly; however, we still do good damage against a single target.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I grouped in Permafrost the other night with a brawler that absolutely blew my DPS away.. AND he tanked better than me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>I was the MT for a group in Permafrost and the Assassin nor Wizard could match my DPS. What does this mean? Absolutly nothing, to many variables.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How can they justify this change? I played my toon to level 50 only to drop to a dps level just above healers??? [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is going on here?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Complaining about what tier of damage you are in without knowing any of the combat changes...</FONT></DIV> <OL> <LI><FONT color=#66ff00>Does the DPS table include AoE damage? After all this is where Zerker DPS shines at the moment.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ff00>Does the DPS table include buffs? Anarchy increases our DPS like no other buff and what about our 50% group haste.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ff00>Does the DPS table include weapon types? Casters do not receive weapons that increase spell damage while melee can get Fabled weapons that drasticly increase damage.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#66ff00>Does the DPS table incluse the reactive damage from being hit? Fury / Rage.</FONT></LI></OL> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Once we know what the DPS outline covers then we can get a better understanding of where the Berserker wil be in relation to other classes. Wait and see, crying because of a single damage scale that nobody outside of SOE knows the meaning of is pointless.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>From you own words:</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> Against a single target our dps is not aweinspiring. <HR> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>So if the scale you are fearing was only taking single creature encounters into calculation our DPS will not be decreased that much.</FONT></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warden, Templar, Mystic, and Conjuror all went through the Arena Solo instance and won it 1st try. I have tried 2 tiems and the best I've gotten the champ too is 50%. I even tried grouping with a lower level guy to lower the avg level of the mobs to 48 and the champ equal con and still only got him to 50%.... How the hell am I gunna beat this dude with my dps nerfed even more?????</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Any class that cannot heal or root and nuke has trouble with the Champion; however, the Champion is beatable by any class. How will the Champion be beatable after the combat changes? Tell you after the changes are on live.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians are raid tanks. Zerkers are DPS tanks. Take away our DPS and we are nothing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Guardians are tanks, Berserkers are Tanks. What will Berserkers be after the combat change? Tanks.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE pull your head out before you lose a ton of loyal customers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Opinion.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Buff the dps of chanters and scouts and leave the tanks alone. If anything... remove our ability to use shields since we are supposed to be offensive tanks not defensive tanks. Make us go 2h or dual wield. That alone would take 800+ mitigation away from us...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Again, Berserkers where designed in EQ2 to be tanks. Fighter = Tank, Warrior = Tank, Berserker = Offensive warrior, Tank.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What about all the adept 3's and Master 1's we spent cash on? We getting reimbursed when they change our spell lines and screw over our abilities or what??? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>New skills are being added and old skills will remain (they may not function the same though). SOE has never said they are removing old skills.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want some answers...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Careful for what you wish for.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Jvaloth on <SPAN class=date_text>07-03-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>10:48 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

Nosnem

07-16-2005, 07:26 PM

<DIV> <DIV>Guardians are raid tanks. Zerkers are DPS tanks. Take away our DPS and we are nothing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Guardians are tanks, Berserkers are Tanks. What will Berserkers be after the combat change? Tanks.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>__________________________________________________ __________________________________</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>So let me get this straight .....you think a Zerker can tank the x4 raid mobs with the normal healer setup of of a Guradian tank grp? </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You say A zerker is a tank..and we all agree... but DEFINITELY not a raid tank. Our avoidance and health can not be buffed up to that of a Guardian so they are always the Raid Tanks. I have shimmering BP and all ebon so im not defensless but still I khnow my place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can I tank the lesser x4 mobs..sure ...np. King drayek is a push over. When we beat VaZGok the other day... could I have tanked it..??? almost definitely not, but there is very slight chance we could get lucky and keep me alive..very doubtful though. But he is a mediocre mob in the grand scheme of things. And it being Mediocre and all we still have one hell of a time taking him to deaths door even with a uber guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could I tank the harder x4 mobs ....? Absolutely, with out a doubt, not at all. SO even if they bump up our defense a bit we still suck as raid tanks. And then what? Ill be as useful as an SK at a raid. Low dps, mediocre tank, completely useless for a raid...completely useless = boredom and quiting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont expect SOE to make everyone happy all the time but I expect them to at least look at this from the biggest point in the game. Raiding is where your die hards come from and those are who will stay. If you make a class useless at raids tehy will leave the game. Like my buddy the SK who is a good player but only tags along to raids to get dkp but never actually gets to fight anything cause he is not needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He is thinking about quiting now.......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

Rocket3375

07-17-2005, 12:06 AM

<div></div><p><font size="5"><b>SHAME ON WHOEVER IS THE IDIOT WHO IS BEHIND THIS...</b></font>Last time I checked people were in business to make money and gain customers, not lose customers....</p><p>I played EQ1 for years. I only played one character, a warrior. I have never played a caster nor do I want to. I quit EQ1 when AA points were introduced because I saw what the new owner of EQ, Sony, was doing to all the EQ addicted people. A donkey with a carrot on a string in front of it comes to mind. I was hoping that EQ2 would be a bit different. They were promising the ability of different play styles, such as a person who doesn't have 15 hours a day to sit on his [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] playing EQ and letting the rest of his real life fall apart. I decided to give Sony a clean slate and drop old beefs with them.</p><p>When I bought EQ2, I put a lot of thought into becoming a Berserker. I did not want to always be a main tank again because it's a demanding job. (i.e. Jerkface_01 tells the group, "PULL!") Keep in mind that I hadn't played EQ in years and the only thing I knew about berserk was it was what happened when a warrior got to low health and then they did very high damage via critical hits if I remember correctly. I did not know what a Berserker class was! So I read the character description at the EQ2 website and in software documentation to get an understanding of them.</p><p>I chose a berserker because I was lead to believe that was a very high-damage class that had the ability to tank but not as well as a guardian. This sounded great to me. I didn't always have to be the chump who did 90% of the group xp work and always 'leading'. But for the sake of making a group work I could be a tank (not as good as a guardian though). Everything was fine.</p><p>Then, I took a 3 month break because my wife gave birth so I could pay attention to more important things. When I came back all my gear that I had bought under the pretense of selling later (meaning I chose armor_01 because it was a saleable item later on) had to be attuned. Thanks Sony for wasting a ton of my time and effort there. <b>STRIKE ONE</b> WITH ME SONY. Oh well, roll with the punches I say. I got over it.</p><p> I kept leveling and playing even though the server population seemed to only be a fraction of what it was before after that incident. I considered following the masses elsewhere but I figured that I had put enough time into this character that I would stick with it. I went through 3 guilds that died out. Wasting all the time I put into leveling them guilds. Nice design on guild status Sony. I suppose you didn't foresee yourself screwing up major and having a mass mutiny. For me wasting all that time and effort on leveling guilds that died out due to people quitting the game because of your poor choices - <b>STRIKE TWO</b> WITH ME SONY.</p><p> Now I am a lvl 47 berserker in a level 27 guild with a good reputation. I chose all attributes and attacks that would make me more high damage along the way. I never saw myself tanking a raid. In fact I spent a ton of money on buying alternate gear to wear at raids that had high strength per item. I was able to get my str to 220+ with just my own buffs. I've been transitioning to more of a damage dealer then a tank. I've been called a 'freak' (in a good way) because of the amount of damage I could do. The reason why that is, it is because I know what attacks/buffs to use in a certain sequence that cause me to be attacking at an insane rate with procs flying everywhere. I like to call this attention to detail and player skill. The balance part of this was me finding that line where I could maintain non-aggro in a raid situation... or die. This takes a lot of attention and skill. So now, my guild has said Berserkers are not welcome at raids since its a matter of space due to the "excellent" design of the small cap of players allowed to be in a raid group. Just wonderful. And finding a group just got a lot harder. Soloing just got a lot harder too. None of these were easy to begin with. So, now my class is deemed useless by the masses and is no longer a class I want to play. Since I don't want to be a guardian and never wanted to be any caster classes, In fact, there is not a class I want to play at all anymore. I don't want to play EQ2 anymore now due to this. <b>STRIKE THREE</b> SONY FOR WASTING WHO KNOWS HOW MANY HOURS OF MY LIFE. <b>YOU'RE OUT</b>. </p><p>Not to mention never doing anything about the bots... I see the same ones running for weeks even though I reported them 5 times - <b>STRIKE FOUR</b>. For selling a game and a subscription to it that was not ready yet - <b>STRIKE FIVE</b>. </p><p>And last but not least, lying to everyone who signed on as a berserker.... <b>STRIKE SIX</b>. </p><p>I will avoid all Sony products/services like the plauge for the rest of my life.Good job Sony.</p><p>If the management of development, or whoever is responsible for this, had an IQ higher then an eggplant then they could have found a better solution such as:<u><b> Concentrations adjustments...</b></u>1. No Concentrations up low defense, low offense:Berserker is ineffective in all aspects. This somewhat forces berserkers to choose a concentration.</p><p>2. One that’s personally +defensive/offensive: (we have this already just needed to be balanced)It would make us close to as defensive as a guardian, but put our DPS in the middle of the pact</p><p>3. One that’s personally -defensive/+offensive: (we have this already just needed to be balanced)It would make us top contender for DPS and about middle tier in defense. This would force a berserker to not exceed DPS that would get aggro. Aggro in this situation = near death/death experience. A berserker could not tank like this.</p><p><u>Also~~~</u>Since we are 2nd rate main tanks, why not give us a stronger intervene type concentration. This would make us more useful in a raid helping damage control on the main tank. You could have 10 berserkers switching who is intervening, which would take considerable coordination and skill, which would slow the damage rate and provide a HP pool for damage. As it is right now, no one cares about intervene it's not worth the effort.</p><p>In conclusion...As of right now, Berserkers suck. No one wants us. No one needs us. There is a lot better classes to have in a raid party or group then a berserker now. </p><p>No groups.No raids.Soloing is too hard now at higher levels. (lucky if can kill a lowest possible green herioc anymore solo)And another mass mutiny currently underway.</p><p>Great job Sony Developers, if I managed my projects like you do, I'd be in the unemployment line.To iterate again, and I mean it....I will avoid all Sony products/services like the plauge for the rest of my life.</p><p>P.S.I expected no less really. I wasn't a sucker. I didn't buy any adventure pack or expansion pack.I knew better.</p><div></div>

Eyes_of_Truth

07-17-2005, 12:20 AM

<P>Guys, im sorry.... im sure someone has allready qutoed MG's post about a little think saying ...</P> <P>Alll fightets are tanks. </P> <P>Cant get more specific, anyway, he also said there berserkers will deal the most daamge WHEN tanking, so if your not tnaking, your actually LOOSING dps.</P> <P>I imagine your berserking will only happen when attacked, or that you will see an improved CA that lets you riposte attacks for a short time.</P> <P>And yes, berserkers can easily tank a raid mob x4, monks can tank a raid mob x4, wont be as efficant, but it can be done. Maby not that hardest mobs in the game, but plenty of the reasier raid x4 mobs in the 50+ range can be tanked by non-guardians in this current setup, it's just not as efficant for the healers. The top end encounters imo are only guardian/paladin tankable currently, just due to their difficulty, but we will have to wait till after revamp to know if you canor cant tank them.</P> <DIV>The guy above you is right though Nosnemi, Fighter = Defensive focused archetype (tank), Warrior = Defensive class focused on mitigation, Berserker = Defensive class focused on mitigation with a good overall DPS and DPS inmproving abilityies for the group at no loss to their warrior defense. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian is Fighter = Defensive focused archetype (tank), Warrior = Defesncive class focused on mitigation, Guaridan = Defensive class focused on mitigation with group defensive enhancing abilities and group hp buffs and, imo their token ability, should be their Guard skill line.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So in this set up what would be the true differance? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian chose defensive group buffs and skills that lower mobs daamge (there for letting them take less damage) and the ability to block daamgem for other allies, where berserkers chose more offensive buffs for their group, more DPS when in berserk mode (no need for a berserker to loose defense in berserk mode if their damage doesnt exceed a equally geared/skilled mage or scout)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So without changing how much damage they do as a base (before buffs are considered) or exactly how much damage they can absorb, you can still have one with offensive plus, and the other with an inverted defensive plus (by lowering mobs attack speed and damage)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That way when uber raid mob attacks, both guaridan and berserker will take same ammount of damage using same gear, but the Guardian's hp buffs and group defensive buffs will help him withstand the attack slightly better, but if a guaridan is in the same group as aberserker, then it's even.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im just tired of reading the "my berserker is a DPS class now [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and leave em alone" </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I realy want to make a tanking berserker, but im sure if this current system doesnt change, i would be shunned.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian's primary role- Defense, Secondary role- increasing the defense of group and lowering DPS of foes (which islike increasing your defense)</DIV> <DIV>Berserker's primary role- Defense, Secondary role- Increasing group's and their own DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's a trade off, berserker chooses damage as their secondary ability, while guardian chooses protecting allies and lowering incoming damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is alot more balanced like that than it is now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Same think with theother 2 tanking classes:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fighter = Defensive focused archetype (tank), Crusader = Defensive class focused on magical mitigation, Paladin= Defensive class focused on magical mitigation with a heals that are about 3/4 the power of a priest class's direct heal, with buffs for multiple stats.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Fighter = Defensive focused archetype (tank), Crusader = Defensive class focused on magical mitigation, Shadoknight= Defensive class focused on magical mitigation with a lifetaps that are balanced with a Paladin's healing and ability to stealmob's stats. (i worked this out, if you give lifetap say 1 second casting time, 300 damage and 300 heal, with a 14 second recast for 130 power, and give paladins a 225 heal that takes 2 seconds to cast and 4 to wait for 50 power, and a nuke that does 150 with 1 second casting time with a 14 second recast timer for 30 power, it adds up that in 15 seconds a paladin can do 450 healing/150 spell damage for 130 power total, where as a SK would do 300healing/300 damage for 130 power.) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>This would help your SK friend out a TON :smileywink:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Fighter = Defensive focused archetype (tank), Brawler= Defensive class focused on avoidance (also gets higher offense but less +hate mods), Monk= Defensive class focused on avoidance with ability to purge maladies from themselves (and possibly others) and ability to lower allies hate gain, while having dps close to scout/mage levels</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Fighter = Defensive focused archetype (tank), Brawler= Defensive class focused on avoidance, Bruiser= Defensive class focused on avoidance with ability deal very close to scout/mage damage, with many debilitating attacks that can bully and instill fear in their foes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Atleast thats how i think the classes should be done, all haveing areas where they tank well, and thier secondairy abilities not affecting how well they tank. SK, Berserker, and the brawlers shouldnt be added to a group just for their damage dealing role if a mage or scout withthe same upgrades is also lfg, but they should be added for their tanking abilities, with the extra damage/healing as icing on the cake so to speak.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well anyway thats how i see the fighter class, and it apears the devs are going down that route as well, i just hope how ever it turns out, that we have alot more tanking varriety that is more equallly balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>dispite what some people think, balancing within the Archetypes, and not allowing the class or sub class choices to change the Archetypes main role, is how this balance needs to be apriched. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It doesnt make us carbon coppies, it makes every fighter a good tank with class saying how you tank, and sub-class adding a secondary role (secondary roels should never be more important than primary roles of your archetype or anyone elses, aka no pallies out healingpriests or monks out damaging scouts or mages) and that kind of balancing allow for any priest to heal effecively, and every mage or scout to kill effectively.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Main consern of mine with the current setup is this: Some people can put a ton of work into thier character, and simly because of their subclass or class, cant perform a job or role that another character who is a different class can perform better with less effort, like a Conjuror using a Master spell can be outdamaged easily by a warlock with a app4 dark distortion in thelower levels, and it only gets worse in the higher levels, or a monk who pays 50g for a full suit of rare leather armor geting out tanked by a Guardian in NPC baught armor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When balanced, the effort people put into their characters will reflect how well their character is, not their class. If a brawler has rare armor vs a warrior with common place armor, the brawler shouldbe the better defender.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, i realy hope the berserker community gets some good stuff in thislife update, because i realy want a offensive warrior that tanks well, but doesnt get the gorup defending powers of a guardian. Thats how i think SOE is redeveloping the berserker. Damage is best when tanking is what MG stated, i only hope it means Berserkers will be on even footing with other tanks, along with brawlers and SK also being on even footing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Toodles!</DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>

Chog

07-17-2005, 02:33 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nosnemi1 wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>Guardians are raid tanks. Zerkers are DPS tanks. Take away our DPS and we are nothing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Guardians are tanks, Berserkers are Tanks. What will Berserkers be after the combat change? Tanks.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>__________________________________________________ __________________________________</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>So let me get this straight .....you think a Zerker can tank the x4 raid mobs with the normal healer setup of of a Guradian tank grp? </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Is the Guardina better at tanking? Definatly. The zerker would be better off doing DPS then tanking currently. That is not the intention of SOE, hence combat changes.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You say A zerker is a tank..and we all agree... but DEFINITELY not a raid tank. Our avoidance and health can not be buffed up to that of a Guardian so they are always the Raid Tanks. I have shimmering BP and all ebon so im not defensless but still I khnow my place.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>This is called buff stacking and will be part of the past. After the combat changes Berserkers should be raid tanks, as should any fighter class.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can I tank the lesser x4 mobs..sure ...np. King drayek is a push over. When we beat VaZGok the other day... could I have tanked it..??? almost definitely not, but there is very slight chance we could get lucky and keep me alive..very doubtful though. But he is a mediocre mob in the grand scheme of things. And it being Mediocre and all we still have one hell of a time taking him to deaths door even with a uber guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>And after the combat changes you should be able to tank him without having to have a guardian.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could I tank the harder x4 mobs ....? Absolutely, with out a doubt, not at all. SO even if they bump up our defense a bit we still suck as raid tanks. And then what? Ill be as useful as an SK at a raid. Low dps, mediocre tank, completely useless for a raid...completely useless = boredom and quiting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>The main reaason Guardians are better at raid tanking then us is buff stacking. Buff stacking is going bye bye. So no longer will Guardians have a leg up compared to the rest of the fighter classes. All Fighters will be able to raid tank, if all fighters cannot raid tank then SOE has failed with the combat changes. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont expect SOE to make everyone happy all the time but I expect them to at least look at this from the biggest point in the game. Raiding is where your die hards come from and those are who will stay. If you make a class useless at raids tehy will leave the game. Like my buddy the SK who is a good player but only tags along to raids to get dkp but never actually gets to fight anything cause he is not needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>The combat changes will make or break EQ2. If Berserkers and other fighters are on the sideline of a raid because they are not needed then SOE has failed with the combat changes. Just remember, berserkers are tanks. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Very little information has been released about the combat changes, just enough for people to make wild accusations. Nobody knows (except SOE) how the combat changes will effect solo / group / raid content.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He is thinking about quiting now.......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>So I guess when you look at a glass of water and rather then looking at the glass as half full / empty, you say "drat that glass will be down to only a quarter left in no time" and have no intention of adding the waitreess with a new glass of water on the way to the table into the equation.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Remember, SOE has spent alot of time on the combat changes to make sure they will work correctly. I am sure numerous guilds will be copied to the test server (already do this) to test how the combat changes affect raid content (as well as high level group content). SOE is not out to desroy any specific class. They want the game to be fun as well as a challange.<BR>

Nosnem

07-17-2005, 03:45 AM

<DIV>well i have to say the last two posts have been both informative and interesting to say the least. I am glad the<FONT size=1> </FONT><FONT size=3>posters both knew the scope better than I do. It was a pleasure being rebutted with such inticate detail. I was not aware of the uf stacking beig the huge dfference between guards and zekers. i apprecite it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Thanx for he info ..both of u:smileyhappy:</FONT></DIV>

Jabbit

07-17-2005, 04:37 AM

<div></div>Ok, let me start off by saying I raid daily. By daily I mean every night my guild goes out and does most if not all of the instanced zones, and during the week we gank 98% of the contested mobs. I am a level 50 Berserker. I come in the top 3 DPS nearly every raid mob. The people that beat me out alot of the time, are a Warlock, Monk, and Assassin. Are these not the classes that are supposedly no where near Berserker DPS? It all comes down to how well you play your class, and how hard you have worked to max out your DPS through spell/armor/weapon upgrades. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. When I first joined my guild my DPS was pitiful, usually around the 150 mark. But through raiding every night, getting fabled gear and adept 3 all my T5 skills, it grew to 225-300+. Now the 3 classes I mentioned above have done this also, and is why they are able to beat me out in most cases (we all have our bad days). So from my standpoint Berserker DPS is where it should be and always has been. I'm afraid the people who say we are the be all end all DPS are just talking out of their [Removed for Content], or they need to stop being lazy and actually work on getting better, because it can be done. I wish more people would realize this and stop wishing nerfs on other classes, it's just counter-productive if anything. It's true, we pale in comparison to Guardians in the tanking area (HP/mitigation buffs), all we have is our DPS, and if this nerf goes live, we'll have nothing. P.S. If half of you spent as much time upgrading and bettering your toon as you do [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing about your low DPS, this whole farse wouldn't even be an issue right now. Jabbit Deathgrip, 50 Berserker Very Proud Member of "The Downward Spiral" Lavastorm Server <div></div><p>Message Edited by Jabbit on <span class=date_text>07-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:40 PM</span>

Rocket3375

07-17-2005, 05:03 AM

<div></div><p>fight·er<span> </span>1. One who fights, such as a soldier or boxer.<span> </span>2. A fast, maneuverable combat aircraft used to engage enemy aircraft.<span> </span>3. A pugnacious, unyielding, or determined person.</p><p>war·ri·or <span> </span>1. One who is engaged in or experienced in battle.<span> </span>2. One who is engaged aggressively or energetically in an activity, cause, or conflict.</p><p>ber·serk·er<span> </span>1.One of a band of ancient Norse warriors legendary for their savagery and reckless frenzy in battle.</p><p>guard·i·an <span> </span>1. One that guards, watches over, protects or safeguarding.</p><p>I really fail to see how a Berserker by any definition (dictionary or EQ2 description) is a 'Tank' in the same way that a guardian is. Sounds and sounded like to me this class is one who does damage not protecting others by maintaining aggro. Whats next? The color blue shall be called pink and vice-versa in EQ2...</p><p>My bio read proudly "DMG Inc." It now should read: "Useless Inc. / // C O // / // G"</p><p>Maybe they should just do away with the berserker class and turn em all into guardians? Sounds like there will be little differencen now.They should rename the class to "B Guardian" as in 'a less than' the plain flavored "Guardian".</p><p>The lore for this "B Guardian" class should read:Once upon a time the berserker class was a formidable opponent until the Sony Gods, who were corrupted by others, decided that this class of warrior should be exterminated. First they took away their ability to exchange their very expensive armors and later the corrupted Sony Gods took away their strong offensive powers. Slowly but surely this class of warrior went extinct because it was common knowledge that they were useless in battle and had no other abilities that were worth while for a campaign against any epic foe. Only the foolish or anti-social decided to become berserkers after that and none ever succeed as they lacked the defense and offense to be effective in any situation. Through the ages the warrior class of Berserker disappeared along with their savagery and was transformed into the 2nd rate guardian class called "B guardian". This class is perfect for RL losers who want to bring their own personal RL dynamic into a virtual setting.</p><p>This "B Guardian" class should come automatically with titles such as "PlayerName The Less Than" and "PlayerName The HasBeen" or "PlayerName Forever LFG" or "PlayerName LFGuild" or "PlayerName The Non-Raider" or "PlayerName The Useless". Other titles they might want to consider for the B Guardians might be: "PlayerName 2nd Rate Slayer of Undead" or prefixed like "Dirt Nap Tank PlayerName" or "Used To Do A Lot Of Dmg PlayerName". Or my personal favorite, "PlayerName Will Raid For No Loot Chance Or No XP!".</p><p>They should create a zone specially for all these 2nd rate B Guardians where the mobs are really easy so they can still xp and get up to top levels to experience being shunned by others and not welcomed in the end game raid experiences so that this player can feel that he really just wasted all his free time for the last 8 months. At that point they should be forced to reroll to another class that this person does not want to play.</p><p>In the coming future....Sony should force every class to become something they are not to be fair also.. Wizards become Rangers, Rangers become Coercers, so on and so forth.Make it random per character too so there is no logic in it to stay consistent with all the developers past actions.</p><p>Or better yet... lets just make all classes the same, look the same, play the same so no one complains about unbalance... but wait another year to implement to really anger some people. Everyone should be given computer generated name for thier character like "Player_00124435" at this point also.</p><p>While they are at it, Sony's EQ2 should also stop supporting NVIDIA video cards too and make sure that EQ2 does not work on any computer that came from Dell. They should change the graphics engines to only work on the new top of the line ATI cards and only work on Alienware computers (after the invest tons of money in stock in both companies of course).</p><p>Sony should see if they can break their record for how many people they can get to quit a MMORPG in a one week period. Thumbs up, kudos and hats off to ya!! Quite an accomplishment.</p><p>Last but not least....Let's remove all parts of this game that require any thought, decision making and player skill so the bot groups get more GPM (gold per minute). GPM > DPS</p><p>For the alive player, quest walk-throughs and macros these quests should be provided, for an additional cost per month of course, and only be eligible if you have bought all expansion and adventure packs and have prepaid for any upcoming packs that may still only in concept phase and have not hit design phase yet.</p><p>~~~LIGHTBULB!~~~~</p><p>Make Berserkers pay a one time $100 setup fee, a one time $55 administration fee, a one time $35 service fee, an occaisional random $25 upkeep fee and a $9 extra per month to retain their strong offense powers... This would be purely optional of course (not to be confused with extortion).I knew I'd come up with the solution to save this class... and I'm sure Sony approves of it.This will provide balance to what really counts...Sony's EQ2 Financials...</p><p>~</p><div></div>

Chog

07-17-2005, 07:18 AM

<P>Why do people constantly yell the sky is falling when they know absolutly no facts about the combat changes?</P> <P>Yes, a list from best to worst damage has been released. That is all the information is: a list. Here are questions about the list that can only be answered by speculation (or a Dev):</P> <UL> <LI>Does the list include group encounters (where zerker DPS shines)? </LI> <LI>Does the list include buffs like Anarchy or our 50% group haste?</LI> <LI>Does the list inlude certain type of weapon tiers? (Fabled / Imbued / Prismatic)</LI> <LI>Does the list take into account if we are tanking or not?</LI> <LI>Does the list take into account the reactive damage Berserkers have? (Rage / Fury)</LI> <LI>Does the list take into acount if Berserkers are in a stance? (Offensive / Defensive / no stance)</LI> <LI>How much damage differentiates the tiers? Sub tiers?</LI></UL> <P>So many questions are not answered by the DPS chart. We need more information before we can make any intelligent posts on the good / bad of the combat changes. All we have to go on is what Moorgard has said and he has not said alot, he is good at being vague Even though Moorgard has posted a few times to try and clarify some of the changes he still has not revealed much information.</P> <P> </P>

Jvaloth

07-17-2005, 09:49 AM

<P>He said we would be 1 step above priests in DPS... that says it all.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

Chog

07-17-2005, 02:41 PM

<P>Nosmei1,</P> <P>I enjoy good sarcasm, your above post was dripping with it congradulations. </P> <P>As to the rebuttal, it is impossible to put facts into any argument when there is incomplete information available about the combat changes. At least the views against the sky is falling posts try to inform people that nobody knows what will happen after the combat changes; except archtype rolls will be inforced. Anybody can make a post saying Berserkers will be worth less then a wet noodle; however, they have no facts to back this claim up. Only thing people who scream the sky is falling can do is look at the partial information we have available and make the worst case scenario like it is scientific fact. Like it or not nobody has the information available except SOE about the combat changes. </P> <P>Do not get me wrong, I am in the category of SOE better do the combat changes correct or they will lose subscriptions; however, I am not going to say the sky is falling when there is no information pointing in that direction. Partial information is irrelevant, anybody can make a case good or bad with partial information. Human nature tends to lean towrads the bad unfortunatly.</P>

Doodm

07-19-2005, 01:13 AM

<P>QUOTE:</P> <P><EM>"Berserkers are chaotic warriors who inflict <STRONG><U>heavy</U></STRONG> damage with all manner of weapons. Their furious attacks overwhelm thei opponents, to whom they show no mercy."</EM></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So umm.... are we not going to fit into our description anymore? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't care at all if I get better defense. I chose to be a berserker because I wanted to do damage as well as take damage. I do -not- want to put my focus into defence seeing as I will not tank a raid due to the fact that guardians will always be the tank in a raid. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So... why do I care about how good my defences are if I can't even use them? There is always a guardian who could do it better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want to keep our class the way it is. Damage is what separates us from being just another guardian.</DIV>

Eyes_of_Truth

07-19-2005, 07:33 AM

<P>It has been said time and time and time and time and time again that that quote, and amny others from the web site, is more of a promotional that anything ment a s aconcreat example of this sub-class.</P> <P>My Conjuror quest said i woud be able to summon food ammong other things, and unless i use my summonable waterstone to go catch me some fish, or my summoned hp > power shard to eat my own flesh, i dont see ANY food summoning abilities, OR my blancket!!!!</P> <P>GOD HELP YOU ALL IF I DONT GET MY BLANKY!!!! <it WAS mentiioned by that lieing filty gnome outside of the mage tower after all /grumble :smileymad: ></P> <P>Point is, that 1 little line doesnt define your class for it's entierty, it's just to make them sound cool. If you wanted damage and nothing else, you would ahve choosen mage or scout at level 3, when it told you that was their focus.</P> <P>OH i also herd the funniest thing yesterday "An axe in the head is as good as a dagger in the back", then right after this berserker said that, another level 50 berserker walked by wearing, whatelse, but a dagger and a short sword :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Toodles!</P>

Shurinow

07-19-2005, 12:17 PM

<P>That quote he gave is not just from some website banner or trendy t-shirt... It is from the game manuel. You know, the thing that people who buy the game read to know what is what and who is who? Sooooo, what? Was it a lie? It says 'heavy damage'. Period. Scouts seem to think that just because they are meant to do dps nobody else can. Well in walks the berserker. Greetings. The problem is everyone wants to be the star of the team. Scouts and whoever else downs the zerks have an ego that won't stop. People do foolish things like own parser programs. What was said is true--if a berserker can't deal any damage, he is worthless. Why? Because that raid over there already has a tank, he's called a Guardian. Sorry.</P> <P>Don't screw with my class.</P> <P>Rajon</P> <P>50 Berserker and lovin' it</P>

Styk

07-19-2005, 08:56 PM

So many people are saying we tank as good as guards on raids..... ONLY WHEN A GUARDIAN IS IN YOUR GROUP can you tank as well if not better then one.... ( all the defense buffs, hp buffs blah blah blah ) Berserker dps is overpowered..... at 50 its overpowered against alot of classes partially due to the fact that many zerkers ( like my self ) are all adept 3, Master 1, Have a royal great flail ( simply the most powerful weapon in the game atm ) etc etc.... Buggrit i never made fun of your lvl, but your comments about our class shows that you know very little about the end game for zerkers.... once the buff stacking is fixed the hit point lead warriors had over crusaders and brawlers will become ALOT smaller, stackability between fighters of the same archtype will be fixed.... meaning that dps will be spread more evenly amoung say 4 berserkers in the raid, currently if you have 3-4 in a raid, the one with the best upgraded skills and weapons willhave the massive number over another.... Last but not least, if i wanted to be the super tank , i would have became a Pally or Guardian ( Paladin's post combat changes will ascend to become co-tank gods with guardians via the reduced cost in their heals and wards and the increased effective ness in their wards and agro sieve abilities ) I signed up for good dps, moderate tankability..... only way that can be obtained again is if they brought back the defense penalty for going berserk... again i ask truly after combat changes, i want to see the difference between the 4 Plate Fighters classes <div></div>

Babayaaga

07-20-2005, 06:44 PM

<P>I just hit 20 on a Berzerker Alt I made recently. I'm aware of the upcoming combat changes, and I can share your frustration when it comes to massive changes being made against established classes this late in the game.</P> <P>I chose to try a Berzerker to play with some of my lower-levelled friends mainly because I like being a "front-line" class without a serious cost to DPS. While I love my Monk tremendously, it has always faced challenges in terms of being a class that certainly falls short in the "front-line" classification contrary to what we were told back at release.</P> <P>I can empathise with you guys who have enjoyed a class that has problably come closest and truest to what all fighters were told they should be able to do at the outset of the game. I don't believe it is right that anyone should invest a huge bulk of time into something (many months), only to have it completely changed after that time has invested. We don't spend time and effort on things we don't want to do or be, and to have someone change this for you is utterly frustrating.</P> <P>At this point I'm hoping that the powers at be recognize this last point and take it very seriously. You can't just take a class and reinvent the wheel this late in the game. Complete role reversals will achieve nothing but frustration for their weakening playerbase.</P> <P>Good luck Berzerkers.</P>

Jvaloth

07-21-2005, 01:31 AM

<P>I totally think there should be a defense/mitigation cost for going beserk via (rage/bloodlust etc) Its the sacrifice for going zerk and dealing more damage.. the beserker is throwing caution (and defense) to the wind in a flurry of rage. Not sure why this was ever removed.</P> <P>I just dont trust SOE. I've seen what they've done in EQ 1.. with the perceived weak classes getting massive boosts to the point of being overpowered and perceived strong classes getting nerfed into oblivion. Seems to be a standard operating procedure , ripe full of knee jerk reactions to appease the whining masses.</P> <P>There are weaknesses in the scout/predator/rogue lines. There are weaknesses in the chanter line. Monks/Bruisers for the most part can't equally tank with the plate classes (but they do an [Removed for Content] load more damage in the process) . Fix the other classes dang it. Leave us alone. We've got our nitche, lets not do a 180' and wipe out an entire classes entire stated purpose of being. Almost 8 months I've been playing this game, and now my character is moving down to bottom of dps charters , just above priests? 3 Master 1's , 3 Adept 3's for skills that post patch might not even be worth the 10p+ it cost to upgrade them? </P> <P> </P> <P>This is like selling someone a brand new Porsche then 7 months later dropping off a Volkswagen Beetle and saying "I hope you enjoyed your Porsche, but we've decided that you should have this car instead. Oh ya, make sure you keep sending us the payments on the Porsche!". </P> <P>I'm sorry, but I don't think so.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

Chog

07-21-2005, 09:44 AM

<DIV>Here is a post from Moorgard about class descriptions found in various areas (website). You can find the post here:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=5006&query.id=0#M5006" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=5006&query.id=0#M5006</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The part that I will point out is (highlights are mine)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Moorgard:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some posters are citing the two-sentence class description on the website as a definition of everything the class should be: "Berserkers are chaotic warriors who inflict heavy damage with all manner of weapons. Their furious attacks overwhelm their opponents, to whom they show no mercy." Some of you have invested your own emotional reactions into what you feel this is supposed to mean, but <FONT color=#ffff00>those descriptions were written to give lore-based flavor, not define everything a class is</FONT>. It can just as easily be argued that berserkers as they stand today fit that description just fine. <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

caine71

07-21-2005, 09:42 PM

<DIV> <DIV>Chogar:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here is a post from Moorgard about class descriptions found in various areas (website). You can find the post here:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#c8c1b5></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>The part that I will point out is (highlights are mine)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Moorgard:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some posters are citing the two-sentence class description on the website as a definition of everything the class should be: "Berserkers are chaotic warriors who inflict heavy damage with all manner of weapons. Their furious attacks overwhelm their opponents, to whom they show no mercy." Some of you have invested your own emotional reactions into what you feel this is supposed to mean, but <FONT color=#ffff00>those descriptions were written to give lore-based flavor, not define everything a class is</FONT>. It can just as easily be argued that berserkers as they stand today fit that description just fine. <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P></P> <DIV>-----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>"Your food stamps will be stopped effective March 1992 because we received notice that you passed away. May God bless you. You may reapply if there is a change in your circumstances."--Department of Social Services, Greenville, South Carolina</DIV></DIV> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Ok we have seen this post from Moorgard before, and I'll say it again, it a scape goat excuse. Cmon, what if you bought a car based on what the manual said, then to find out instead of a Hemi engine, it a had a 2 cylinder lawnmower engine? If that was just lore, it should have been stated as such, it was meant to be a description pure and simple. SOE is just backpeddling now, as they do so well. This so called combat overhaul, that they think we need, is going to be the death of EQ II for many of us subscribers. SOE is just doing the numbers to see if the losses will be accepatable or not <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If they think they'll lose to much money, things will get changed or not changed whatever. The only things that need balanced severley is the healer classes imhp, the fighters are fine the way they are, as far as combat anyways. I'm a zerker geared towards dps, so if I lose that, then SOE may lose me as a subscriber. Just depends how good DOF is, I might be swayed<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>