Are Zerkers Hosed In Upcoming Combat Patch?

[Frownyfi]

<div></div>Everytime I read a discussion about tank balance I see loads of 'nerf the beserker' hate flying at us from all over the place.  I'm not really sure what we've done to garner all this ire from the eq2 public, but (and this just might be because my perspective is that of a zerker) I think by far we're the most spoken against class at this moment.   Now I've been playing these games for a long time, and, although the devs say they don't take public opinion into account, when a great majority of players are screaming bloody murder the devs have a tendency to want to quell that noise.  I must admit that I love my berserker and I'm very worried about this patch. So, my question is this, do you all think we're going to get nerfed into oblivion after this combat patch?  Edit:  I realize I might very well be overreacting.  I just don't want to see my favorite character become alt-fodder. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ----------------- Bryo of Permafrost, 24 Berserker <div></div><p>Message Edited by Frownyfish on <span class=date_text>06-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:06 PM</span>

[TopHatJon]

<DIV>I sure hope not. :smileysad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berzerkers and Guardians are pretty much the same. The difference is that Guardians are defensive and zerks are offensive. If they dull the offensive capabilities then what is left?</DIV>

[Styk]

Well if they implement the str vs agi check for base hit and get rid of the bonus dmg after 150 str i seriously recoomand on the /respec that you focus on str instead of sta since from what is being said that berserkers and shadow knight will be middle tier tanks with Guardians and Paladins being primarily defense oriented... offense/medium tankabilty is what i signed up for so thats the route imma take I doubt the dps hit will be so hard with 200 str unbuffed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[TheFat]

<DIV>One complaint thread actually had me laughing. The poster was making suggestions as to what the damage heirarchy should be in both short term and long term dps. For short fights he had wizards at the top and for long fights he put scouts at the top. Sure, I can go with that, but the part that really cracked me up was that he felt in short fights priests should have higher dps than all fighters and on longer encounters the fighters would be just above priests in dps. </DIV> <DIV>Now I'm sorry, but if I run into a situation where a rampaging, frenzied berserker with his flaming-double-bladed-lightning-imbued-forged-in-a-dragons-belly executioners axe is outdamaged by a shamn with a stick, I think I might cry. Mind you, it would be a manly sobbing or something or other but cry none the less! That would just be wrong. In my mind, fighters, well, fight. Therefore they do decent damage and can take damage. That's what they're there for. </DIV>

[Stromul]

Yeah I hate this whole tanking business that fighters in MMORPG are stuck on.  They are fighters hence they fight.  They are not call damage absorbers for a name (even they do).  I hate how fighters have been getting beat down because they do damage.  I feel they should do damage and lots of it.  This is how I feel classes should be in  a MMORPG.  Fighters:  Take lots damage and deal a good amount damage. Scouts:  Tricksters.  Maim oppenents, debuff them, do critical hits, evade pretty well but can't take too much damage.  If scout is able to debuff their opponent successful with a few debuffs they should out-damage fighters but if they fail in their debuffs fighters should edge them out slightly.  Give scouts ability to trick opponents which would let them 'tank' (just as well as fighters) since the mobs would be confused and not be able to hit well but this would have to be a hard ability to do.  Mages:  Nuke nuke nuke! Need I say more? Paper thin armor. Healers:  They should obviously heal but also be the ULTIMATE buffers.  They should have the best buffs in the game.  Low/mid damage, high healing, great buffs (especially for groups), and high damage attacks that can be used rarely.  Hey every now and then their diety gives them power to destroy evil. So technically Scouts would be the hardest class to play but the most versitle.  Fighter would be realitve easy and just all out attacks.  Mages would bring the sky down on their foes.  And Priest will keep everyone doing what they are capable of doing. So over all for offense it would be like this: Mage Fighter/Scout depending on situation. Priest For defense: Fighters Scouts Priests Mages So technically Scouts would be the hardest class to play but the most versitle.  Fighter would be realitve easy and just all out attacks.  Mages would bring the sky down on their foes.  And Priest will keep everyone doing what they are capable of doing. Just my 2 cents. <div></div>

[Renzai]

I'd much rather they downgrade our def skills than limit our offensive capabilities, but it sounds like they're doing both. I'm going to be upset if they take away our versatility.<p>Message Edited by Renzai on <span class=date_text>06-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:35 AM</span>

[Tarindel]

My optimism on the topic is waning... I expect fighters to get hit by the nerf stick the hardest. The sad part is, in the original vision, fighters were supposed to have the best damage because they have the least utility.  Later on, they decided that mages should do more damage.  Then they decided that scouts should do more damage. As a result, I'm expecting to see a substantial drop in DPS, no change in tanking ability, and no added utility.  Because that's just how SOE is. <div></div>

[Laereneth]

<P>When is this patch supposed to launch?  And what changes are they proposing?  I'm having a difficulty finding the original post that spurned this one.</P> <P>Though I do feel, that if they nerf the dps or defense of the tanks in general, they are doing a grave injustice.  It's just sad that everytime you find a class you enjoy, sink unheard of amounts of time into building that class, that they come along and knock you back down.  *shakes head*</P> <P>Bjoern</P>

[Frownyfi]

<span><blockquote><hr>Laereneth wrote:<p>When is this patch supposed to launch?  And what changes are they proposing?  I'm having a difficulty finding the original post that spurned this one.</p> <p>Though I do feel, that if they nerf the dps or defense of the tanks in general, they are doing a grave injustice.  It's just sad that everytime you find a class you enjoy, sink unheard of amounts of time into building that class, that they come along and knock you back down.  *shakes head*</p> <p>Bjoern</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>                      So far everything I've read seems to be rumor and supposition.  The bad part is I've never personally read any rumors regarding the combat patch that actually seem to be positive towards any fighter class.  Not only that but the mages/scouts (in general) are attacking our DPS capabilities in any posts regarding class balance.  The stars seem aligned for a big fighter nerf. </span> <div></div>

[Laereneth]

<P>My major concern is this; what differentiates the zerk for the other plate wearing tanks is our dps and agro.  If that gets tampered with, will this not completely ruin our class?  What then is left if you reduce our melee dmg?  And will our agro not drop proportionately?  It seem the only tank that would not see a decrease in its main role would be the guards, who focus on defense anyway.</P> <P>Thoughts?</P> <P>Bjoern</P>

[Styk]

Well in the combat changes that are comming Guardians / Paladins are clearly definded as a Defense tank.... What worries me is the rest of the Figther Hierarchy, the havent really been forthcomming on what the role of Berserker / SK, Monk/Brusier will be... Leaves me to believe that they dont know what to do with us... For Zerker/SK they cant give us the same defense comparison as the first 2 tank types because that wouldnt balance out right , i am praying that our dps wont get hosed too hard ( that is why im changing my all my stat bonuses if they give a respec to str instead and sta and get agi dolls ) since in raids im an offtank dps [Removed for Content] ( i am glad im not MTIng and more on raids since i didnt really sign up to play a uber defense tank , glad we finally have an awesome tank squad built ) Thats why i highly recommand for you lvl 50 zerkers out there to start focusing on Str as your first attrib and agi as your 2nd and not worry so much about sta ( unless your under 110 sta unbuffed then get it there quick ) now if your a raid MT for you guild then i guess your forced to go sta first since they are going to be doing away with stat bonuses after 150 ( and sticking with just a regular increase for each point of str for attack ) because from the looks of things we will be a middle tier tank with some utility,decent  dps ( not quite good as now )  and good but not top tier defense in the figther chain.... I know it might not be everything we want but hey if it will help the game improve in the long run , that means it will be a better game to play <div></div>

[Darchon6]

<DIV>The only people who don't want berserkers to be nerfed are those who play them.  Each and every time my guild kills an epic mob of any kind, they announce the parse for that encounter.  A berseker with royal great flail ranks right up there with warlocks in DPS  - plus he gets the ability to tank.  Scouts, such as myself, are doing *HALF* the damage of a berserker and cannot take more than 1 hit from an epic encounter.  I'm using the best legendary poisons, a pristine imbued cedar long bow w/ frigid blast and tossing in an extra bow shot after that, as well as using my normal melee abilities - all which are master 1 / adept 3s.  Plus you have to consider the fact we scouts have to BUY our dps with poisons, which is still half of what berserkers get for free.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a 50 swashbuckler, the only utilities I receive are a slow group invis, evac, and pathfinding.  Every other abliity I have is damage with a useless addition such as interrupt (doesn't stop an epic's AoE attack) and minus to agility (does anybody notice that?  I don't).  Utility for assassins, rangers, swashbucklers, and brigands does not exist in a raid situation.  We are only thrown into extra slots which we don't have a mage or priest to cover.  I don't like the feeling of uselessness.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No fighter should be capable of outdamaging a scout with an equal level of equipment.  </DIV>

[Frownyfi]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>Darchon, I understand your perspective.  You feel like you were promised a DPS + Utility class and you feel cheated on your DPS capabilities.  That's understandable.  However, we (berserkers) do not deserve to lose one-half of our character because your class is broken at the moment.  A berserker is DPS + Tanking.  That's ALL we do.  We don't have great defensive buffs like a Guardian.  We can't heal, root, evac, pathfind, etc.  We do damage.  Look at our skill list if you don't believe me.  That's how we hold aggro well, and that's what 90% of our abilities are geared towards.  I could understand the complaints if we had the defensive abilities of a Guardian or the Healing abilities of a pally on top of the damage we do, but we are a very one-minded class.  We smack things fast and hard.  Period.  Nerfing berserkers so that their dps falls underneath everyone elses except for a priest will break our class to the point where we all might as well reroll.  Wouldn't it be a better solution to simply boost Scout/Mage damage (where applicable) to the point where you all outdamage us, instead of nerfing us to achieve the same goal?  Either way, berserkers will probably end up falling to the wayside because unless we can contribute significant damage to the group (like we do now), our defensive tanking abilities do not stack up well against a Guardian.  When I signed up to this position it said "Offensive-oriented Warrior."  As far as I see it, that's what we are now.  Above Average DPS + Mediocre Tank, with a speciality in being able to offtank because our high damage lets us peel off aggro very quickly.  I just honestly don't see why if your class is hurting you feel it necessary to destroy another class in the process of getting better.  Consider what you're asking for and you'll see why Berserkers (and, I think, fighters in general) are worried about this combat update. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Frownyfish on <span class="date_text">06-12-2005</span> <span class="time_text">05:59 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Frownyfish on <span class="date_text">06-12-2005</span> <span class="time_text">06:01 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Frownyfish on <span class=date_text>06-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:01 PM</span>

[Laereneth]

<P>I have to agree wholeheartedly with Frownyfish.  Boost the scouts, don't ruin yet another good class by nerfing the Zerks.</P> <P>Bjoern</P>

[Hamervelder]

I want to know why a <EM>scout</EM> is supposed to do more damage than a fighter?  Scouts aren't supposed to be in the fray, beating everything down.  They provide reconnaisance and long-range capabilities.  That's it.  In melee attacks, fighters with weapons (not bare-handed monks) should be the hardest-hitters.  So what if a berzerker (for example) can take heavy damage and also deal it out.  They're limited to basically hacking the enemy to pieces, unlike scouts, mages, and priests.  A heavy nerf-stick across fighters is asanine.

[Tarindel]

<span><blockquote><hr>Hamervelder wrote:<div></div>I want to know why a <em>scout</em> is supposed to do more damage than a fighter?  Scouts aren't supposed to be in the fray, beating everything down.  They provide reconnaisance and long-range capabilities.  That's it.  In melee attacks, fighters with weapons (not bare-handed monks) should be the hardest-hitters.  So what if a berzerker (for example) can take heavy damage and also deal it out.  They're limited to basically hacking the enemy to pieces, unlike scouts, mages, and priests.  A heavy nerf-stick across fighters is asanine.<hr></blockquote>I think the original idea was as you state -- scouts were originally not supposed to do more damage than fighters.  Instead, they'd provide debuffs, movement buffs, and long-range capabilities.  Unfortunately, SOE failed to make viable classes in those roles -- especially in the soloing dept.  As a result, they're falling back to the idea that scouts should do more damage than fighters make up for it. Same goes for mages.  Originally they were conceived of providing more utility and burst damage than long range damage, but when SOE failed to provide them with enough utility, they fell back on giving them more DPS. As a result, fighters have fallen from the top of the heap to third in DPS.  That's why I'm expecting to see an upcoming nerf with little to no benefits for us.  My big fear is that we are going to go back to the case where your typical group has 1 fighter, 1-2 priests, and the rest of the group is filled in with mages/scouts -- leaving 1/4th of the classes (and by far the most popular 1/4th) with only 1/6th of the typical group spots.  This is, of course, supposition, but SOE does have a track record... Note to SOE: All classes need to have roles that stack in a group/raid with others in that group/raid.  Tanking is not an ability that stacks.  DPS is.  Therefore, if most classes out-DPS us, and our "counterbalance" is that we can tank and they can't, we're going to be pretty unhappy.</span><div></div>

[Mie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darchon6 wrote:<BR> <DIV>The only people who don't want berserkers to be nerfed are those who play them.  Each and every time my guild kills an epic mob of any kind, they announce the parse for that encounter.  A berseker with royal great flail ranks right up there with warlocks in DPS  - plus he gets the ability to tank.  Scouts, such as myself, are doing *HALF* the damage of a berserker and cannot take more than 1 hit from an epic encounter.  I'm using the best legendary poisons, a pristine imbued cedar long bow w/ frigid blast and tossing in an extra bow shot after that, as well as using my normal melee abilities - all which are master 1 / adept 3s.  Plus you have to consider the fact we scouts have to BUY our dps with poisons, which is still half of what berserkers get for free.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As a 50 swashbuckler, the only utilities I receive are a slow group invis, evac, and pathfinding.  Every other abliity I have is damage with a useless addition such as interrupt (doesn't stop an epic's AoE attack) and minus to agility (does anybody notice that?  I don't).  Utility for assassins, rangers, swashbucklers, and brigands does not exist in a raid situation.  We are only thrown into extra slots which we don't have a mage or priest to cover.  I don't like the feeling of uselessness.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No fighter should be capable of outdamaging a scout with an equal level of equipment.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I am sure this guys using crappy wrong type weapon.  Immune Immune Immune .................</P> <P>Good new to you. Our bard, ranger both outdamage Wizard and Warlock by a certain amount of dps. </P> <P>Oh wait , swashbuckler .............. I've heard swashbuckler combat art some come with melee debuff. </P> <P> </P> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Mielx on <span class=date_text>06-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:57 PM</span>

[LuckyJimmy]

<DIV>Well said Frownyfish...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I genuinely hope SOE doesn't take away the DPS component of the Zerker class.  Guardians are a much better <EM>defensive</EM> tank than Zerkers...but our ability to kill mobs quicker, therefore allowing the mob to hit us fewer times, lets us be effective tanks as well.  Any well played Guard that is my level with similar armor can absorb far more damage than I can, so if my ability to end the fight quickly is taken away...my effectiveness as a tank will also be decreased greatly.  Also, as Frownyfish said, our class is one, "<EM>with a speciality in being able to offtank because our high damage lets us peel off aggro very quickly.</EM> "  But if our damage is lessened, we will no longer have the ability to effectively offtank either.  Basically, the high DPS combined with decent mitigation is what makes Zerkers, well...Zerkers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And it's been said before, but I'll say it again...instead of complain that another class is "too good" why not brainstorm ideas on how to improve the broken classes?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just one man's thoughts...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Laertes</DIV> <DIV>Lvl 46 Zerker</DIV> <DIV>Guk Server</DIV>

[Laereneth]

<P>There are a lot of good ideas above.  The question is, will the developers read it?  And if so, will they take any to heart?</P> <P>Bjoern</P>

[Rogo]

<DIV>I certainly hope they are.  because without DPS we are a pointless class.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rogo is</DIV>

[Xilli]

<P>That would SUCK!   All my adept 3s are defensive since the offensive spells/traits get obselete as we level up!!  Nerfing the Defense would jack me out of almost 4 plat in harvest rares I could have just SOLD for gear!!</P> <P>Why [Removed for Content] our defense??  Are we not Vanguard armor wearing tanks or not??  They had BETTER NOT nerf our D and leave us and aggro magnets.</P> <P>ARG,  the game was fine!  Why must they cater to weeping children who will never be satisfied untill THEY are the all powerfull ones?  </P> <P> </P> <P>BTW, in EQ1  the Paladin players were the biggest bunch of whining B*****  I have seen in any MMORPG and the Devs changes everything in tune with THEIR complaints.  History repeats, Verant lives again.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Xilli]

<DIV> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darchon6 wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No fighter should be capable of outdamaging a scout with an equal level of equipment.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wrong.  Scouts should go scout and find things for us to eat in between battles.  Fighters FIGHT and Wizzies NUKE.  Your class is for creating oppotunities HENCE your EXCLUSIVE ability to reroll the HO wheel!!  To insanely debuff!!  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want some of your powers, then I want to group heal, teleport, SoW, AE nuke, and sneak.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then you can take away some of ours.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Try being best at what you are and deal.</DIV></DIV>

[Frownyfi]

<div></div>Here it comes, brothers. <span>:smileysad:   Reportedly heard from one of the dev roundtable discussions at the Fanfaire.  Looks like they're paying close attention to the biased parsers that show we can outdamage dps classes (which I've never been able to do personally outside of a really lucky series of Blood Rage procs) and basing their combat fixes off of that, instead of their own class description for us <span>:smileytongue:</span> <span><blockquote><hr>Oakwood wrote:<div> </div><font color="#ff3300">Fighters will be taking an across the board damage reduction. </font> <font color="#ff3300">Zerkers, monks and bruisers will no longer be able to outdamage assasins and wizards over the course of longer fights.</font>  This hits us and crusaders as well, but since most guards see damage as a secondary task at best, not such the big deal (unless it has a major negative impact on aggro generation).<hr></blockquote>          Original link:   <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=13231" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=13231</a></span> </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Frownyfish on <span class=date_text>06-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:24 AM</span>

[Margen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Xillith wrote:<BR> <P>That would SUCK!   All my adept 3s are defensive since the offensive spells/traits get obselete as we level up!!  Nerfing the Defense would jack me out of almost 4 plat in harvest rares I could have just SOLD for gear!!</P> <P>Why [Removed for Content] our defense??  Are we not Vanguard armor wearing tanks or not??  They had BETTER NOT nerf our D and leave us and aggro magnets.</P> <P>ARG,  the game was fine!  Why must they cater to weeping children who will never be satisfied untill THEY are the all powerfull ones?  </P> <P> </P> <P>BTW, in EQ1  the Paladin players were the biggest bunch of whining B*****  I have seen in any MMORPG and the Devs changes everything in tune with THEIR complaints.  History repeats, Verant lives again.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No some of the warriors where the whiners (and after your garbage post, I guess you where one of the babies), they owned tanking at end game and demanded the one area we shined aggro, so then they took off tanking from us, then Sony to please the warrior community came out with GOD where knights couldn't even tank group content.  There was no tanking balance in EQlive, and I see the same thing developing in EQ2.  You sir are a the whiny little twit.</P> <P>Blackoath<BR></P>

[Laereneth]

<P>Then if they're going to screw our class up and ruin our dps, then they should take the extra effort and offer to rebuild our class to guardian if we wish, since all they're accomplishing is making the zerks a gimped guardian if they take our dps.  Just another example of SOE killing the game for players that take the hard earned time to build a class they love and enjoy, just to see its key components trahsed.  This is the second time it's happened to me in EQ2 alone...this is really getting old!!!</P> <P>Give the classes lacking dps, more dps, dont take it away from a class that rightfully deserves it!</P>

[Brugd]

Heh, I came from WoW where I played a Paladin and now I'm playing a zerker here. In WoW, Paladins got nerfed or ignored entirely in every patch. Never did a buff cross our path and now I'm here and zerkers are going to be nerfed. Boy, can I pick 'em or what?  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Margen]

<P>Want to apoligize for going on a rant earlier, just as someone that played a pally in EQ1, being called a whiny ****** kind of ticked me off.  Wasn't at all directed to the Beserker class in general was at a specific individual. </P> <P>As for the orginal post, Shadow Knights (which is what I play in EQ II) are kind of worried also,  since we are behind the curve on both the mitigation/avoidance and the aggro generation.  Only place we do really well is in dps.  Will have to wait and see and hope the nerf bat doesn't slam both of our classes to hard.</P> <P>Good Luck</P> <P>Blackoath</P>

[dr4gonUK]

Simple solution. Stop Berserkers being able to use ( hide behind ) sheilds. Surely nerfing that wont bother any real serka. :smileyhappy:

[Frownyfi]

<span><blockquote><hr>dr4gonUK wrote:Simple solution. Stop Berserkers being able to use ( hide behind ) sheilds. Surely nerfing that wont bother any real serka. :smileyhappy: <div></div><hr></blockquote> And what is your justification for this nerf?  When avoidance for plate wearers drops, a shield will be even more important for tanking than it is now.</span><div></div>

[dr4gonUK]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Frownyfish wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dr4gonUK wrote:<BR>Simple solution. Stop Berserkers being able to use ( hide behind ) sheilds. Surely nerfing that wont bother any real serka. :smileyhappy: <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><BR>And what is your justification for this nerf?  When avoidance for plate wearers drops, a shield will be even more important for tanking than it is now.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>My justification is that if i wanted to use defensive equipment i would be playing a Guardian. A serker using a shield is just a serker trying to poorly imitate a guardian. Saying that, i do own a cedar tower shield, but i wouldnt be upset if i couldnt use it anymore. Same as how they should stop guardians using dw. Its out of character for the archetype imo.

[Laereneth]

<P>Unfortunately, removing our shields or gaurdian's DW won't stop others, scouts in specific, from whinning about their comparative dps.  That is the real issue here.  SOE wants to nerf the fighter types' dps, which I feel is an absolute wretched idea.  Why not just up the scouts' dps?  Simple solution where both parties are happy.  A win/win.  Why does there have to be a looser?</P> <P>Bjoern</P>

[Pnaxx]

<P>I like the idea of nurfing our shields, i think that would really set us apart. Again, we are not Guards and as such, i have no prob with this...tis a good idea...but i think they would need to give us some more dps then...other wise...we may not have much of a place in groups. Having said that, maost Zerkers i know dont us4e shields and they would be happy with this....but im sure when the higher lvls are tanking the epics, u proll must have a shield.....i always take one with real tough mobs to tank for as long as we have other dps behind me. I hate watching my power go red so fast that the healers are freakin out and the scout is saying...."should i evac?....should i evac???? PNOCK.....EVAC?????    rotflmbo</P> <P> </P>