A Thoery on Rescue: Threat and Threat Priority Position

[Ralluw]

<div></div><div></div>I was recently looking at my taunts and noticed to different effects: "threat" and "threat priority...position" Here is some taunts and what they say about these terms at level 47: -Hold the Line (Adept III): Increase Threat by 162 -Brugal's Boastful Blow (Adept II): Increase Threat by 367 -Raging Strike (Adept I): Increase threat priotity of target by 348 positions -<font color="#ffffff">Rescue (Apprentice II): Increase threat priotity of target by 1 positions; Increase Threat by 463</font> -Balok's Furious Chant (Adept II): Increase Threat by 411 (note: encounter aoe) -Promise of Violence (Adept III): Increase threat priotity of target by 495 positions -Bully (Adept I): Increase Threat by 436-532 You might already be seeing where I am going with this.  Excepting rescue for a moment, from these it would seem that the two phrases mean essentially the same thing, but the first effect of rescue seems to be refering to it's description of moving us up the list a single position, but this would mean Raging Strike and PoV are infinitely better. I see a sloppy patch here, I think they couldn't get Rescue to work properly, so they added on the extra threat so it "seemed" to work but only enough so as not to make it appear to work too well, they left the 1 just to try and spoof people into thinking the spell works as intended.  Likewise they have obviously used the incorrect effect on RS and PoV as I know for a fact these skills don't raise you up the list 300+ positions as they would be godly. Perhaps I am wrong, and they just have two effects with similar descriptions, but this thoery seems to lend some credence to the whole problem of rescue not seeming to do what it is supposed to do most of the time. Personally, I only used rescue to complete an HO when all my other taunts are down, now that I mostly raid or solo I don't use it at all. Edit: Grammer/Spelling <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ralluwen on <span class="date_text">06-06-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:10 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Ralluwen on <span class=date_text>06-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:10 PM</span>

[Sokolov]

<P>I concur.</P> <P>Rescue.. doesn't work.  I guess it increases threat.  But I nearly only duo with my zerker and a templar.. and Rescue, on its own, is never enough if she has aggro for any reason.  If I moved up 1 position... who did I move past for her to still have aggro?</P>

[Pin StNeedl]

<DIV>I don't really agree with this summary - I think that they all work exactly as they state in their descriptions - it's just that some of them are (favourably) bugged and not intended to work as they do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM>"Likewise they have obviously used the incorrect effect on RS and PoV as I know for a fact these skills don't raise you up the list 300+ positions as they would be godly."</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know for a fact that if I'm on a raid with the MT taunting the hell out of any mob and the rest of the raid nuking/hitting/healing for all they're worth... No matter how long I wait before doing ANYTHING, I can walk up to the raid mob, hit once with PoV and I have instant aggro every time (and lose it again as soon as the tank taunts). There is no way that's due to just increasing threat by 495, it has to be "by 495 positions" as stated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My experience of Rescue is that it works as stated - the times it doesn't pull aggro are when you aren't second on the hate list, or it someone immediately adds more hate to put them back above you... The extra hate was added to make it more reliable (give you a bit more hate so it isn't instantly pulled back off you).</DIV>

[Sokolov]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Pin StNeedles wrote: <DIV>My experience of Rescue is that it works as stated - the times it doesn't pull aggro are when you aren't second on the hate list, or it someone immediately adds more hate to put them back above you... The extra hate was added to make it more reliable (give you a bit more hate so it isn't instantly pulled back off you).</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Any idea on why it doesn't work in my duo?  If she pulls and I engage after... hitting Rescue does nothing =/  Altho Beserker Barrage tends to get their attention.</DIV>

[Huna]

At level 44, I don't think Rescue is working, I've tried it in plenty of situations (duos) where I should have gotten aggro back, and it has never once worked.  Also I don't think the descriptions are correct, I was duoing with a warlock, he got aggro, rooted the mob, turned off attack and backed up out of range.  I used 4 or 5 taunts before I got aggro back (he hit the mob for 1.6K of damage a little early in the fight, really made it mad apparently <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ), now 2 of those taunts say that they increase threat position by XXX.  If they really worked like that I would have definitely gotten aggro since there were only 2 people in the group. <div></div>

[Mithru]

I've seen it work. It usually doesn't. <div></div>

[Ralluw]

<span><blockquote><hr>Pin StNeedles wrote:<div>No matter how long I wait before doing ANYTHING, I can walk up to the raid mob, hit once with PoV and I have instant aggro every time </div><hr></blockquote> I have at experienced in a single group situation the opposite, I have used Bully, PoV and Anarchy on a mob that was spawned and still unable to gain aggro after that without the person even attacking (obviously the person spawning it was set to a high value right away). The thing is that if RS and PoV work like Rescue, but better, why is rescue on a 30 minute refresh.  Obviously rescue is supposed to be the kind of spell that lets you save the day, but why bother with it when you have RS and PoV on 10 and 30 second timers respectively and do the same thing better. At least I am sure we can all agree that rescue is a skill that needs work.</span><div></div>

[Braell]

<P>Rescuse has had that description for ages i thought, i know for sure it has had the agro stated in it for quite a while.</P> <P>What i think happens with rescue is that it has 2 checks.</P> <P>1.) to move you up the list - but such a tiny tiny chance this usualy fails.</P> <P>2.) Add hate - which can be resisted.</P> <P>The hate on rescue seems resisted about as much as regular tauns are - but the moveing up the agro list "rarely" works, and i dont think i have ever seen it work with duo's at all.</P> <P>The other alternative could be the threat priority list - aka hate list, works differently than a lot of people believe or think or assume it does. (though i have to say the more complex it is the more chance of it [Removed for Content] changes later on imho heh)</P> <P>Remember when they put the taunt messages in for EQL and tons of us went over to test to check out the fail messages and foud lots of interesting things - i dont know of anyone performing any taunt tests or seen any posts stateing results from some, since we can see the hate in the message we are leaving it at that i think.</P> <P>Say each position in the list had a multiplier - like the lower down in the list you are, you start getting a bonus to your hate makeing it easier for you to work your way up the list, or the one at the top of the list has a detrimental effect that causes there agro to be gained at a slower rate than people further down on the list, or hate decays for the person on the top of the list, so many silly complicated things that are going to be so hard to check out for, for all we know rescue could be working and the priority tables just plain not working as intended, hopefully though it's just rescue.</P> <P> </P> <P>Braellar</P>

[Pin StNeedl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ralluwen wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>The thing is that if RS and PoV work like Rescue, but better, why is rescue on a 30 minute refresh.  Obviously rescue is supposed to be the kind of spell that lets you save the day, but why bother with it when you have RS and PoV on 10 and 30 second timers respectively and do the same thing better.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Because (like I said), RS and PoV are probably bugged and are probably supposed to add to hate (be standard taunts), not add hate positions... Other tanks may have arts set similarly - I don't know (same guy coded them all up incorrectly, or whatever)...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But it's all likely to change with the combat revamp anyway - if certain healing changes go in, there'll need to be a large overhaul of taunting aswell.</DIV>

[Kaberu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sokolov wrote:<BR> <P>I concur.</P> <P>Rescue.. doesn't work.  I guess it increases threat.  But I nearly only duo with my zerker and a templar.. and Rescue, on its own, is never enough if she has aggro for any reason.  If I moved up 1 position... who did I move past for her to still have aggro?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>In this example and as I understand it:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rescue will move you up one position, ahead of the templar. Then it adds another 460 or so (whatever the number was) to your aggro. If however the healer has heals, debuffs and wards casting, reacting and so on, it might be enough to add aggro to the templar that surpasses your jump of the 460+ in aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example, you are at 5000 points of aggro, the templar is at 4900. A healing spell puts him at 5500 and thus steals aggro. Rescue will put you just ahead of him on the list: 5501 and then add 460 to aggro so you are at 5961. If a heal goes off adding another 500 points of aggro he'll just keep it and probably even hold it as rescue goes off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What's the use of this ability then? Well if you are seperated and he gets into a fight, he might have built up 5000 aggro while you are still at 0...  it certainly looks grim. Rescue will jump you right to the top and even if he holds aggro with a heal that went off, you are in a much better position to take it and keep it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In practice, this is how it SEEMS to work given the situations I have used it in. In a full group it might be more difficult as you might only jump up to 4th place or so if you are the last one to the fight or if more than one person is in danger from a particular mob. I personally think it would be better if you could target a player and then use it to take their aggro from them. It seems to make more sense to me and would seem more effective as a "rescue" in cases where several mobs are attacking a person.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Styk]

from consistent testing ( both on group and raids mobs aka, letting the primary tank build a huge hate lead then using raging strike and Promise of Violence ) They are direct threat postion atks.... if they arent resisted by the said targets then 8 out of 10 times you will rip agro off of anyone ( also tested with swashies and there atks with a threat postion increase, after they pulled agro, i use PoV and pulled it right back ) so yes i think RS and PoV work as intended.... they are your omg the s.h.i.t has hit the fan agro tools if needed one of the perks of being an agro tank IMO <div></div>

[Braell]

<DIV>RS and PoV are upgrades to Taunting blow, Rescue stays constant but the spell line is continued in the warrior line and later on by infuriation for the berserker line etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taunting blow is just an attack and agro based skill that does not count as a direct taunt for HO's - Brawlers and Crusaders both get skills that are the same line of this with there own flavour, Crusaders one is built into the shield attack which is seperate for Warriors.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Braellar</DIV>

[einar4]

<P> </P> <P> I don't think rescue works, unless it is supposed to be a very mild tuant.  It does tuant, but if I have to pull someone off one of my casters I can only really rely on Raging Strike and taunts.  I usually redo group buffs during fights to keep the balance close already.  The first and only times I've used rescue it has not done anything, and resulted in a poor magess getting beaten on for an extra few server ticks before a real taunt could get the creatures loose.  </P> <P> I've since just discarded it from the hotbar, even thought it is currently at Adept I level. </P> <P>  It would be nice if one of the dev guys gave us a clue of what Threat Priority Position vs Threat is.  With alot of this stuff, they explain it to the beta testers, but never bother to publish the explanation after release. </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Rhaam]

<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> <BR>Pin StNeedles wrote:<BR><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> <BR>Ralluwen wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>The thing is that if RS and PoV work like Rescue, but better, why is rescue on a 30 minute refresh.� Obviously rescue is supposed to be the kind of spell that lets you save the day, but why bother with it when you have RS and PoV on 10 and 30 second timers respectively and do the same thing better.<BR></SPAN><BR> <BR><BR> <HR> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Because (like I said), RS and PoV are probably bugged and are probably supposed to add to hate (be standard taunts), not add hate positions... Other tanks may have arts set similarly - I don't know (same guy coded them all up incorrectly, or whatever)...</DIV><BR> <DIV>�</DIV><BR> <DIV>But it's all likely to change with the combat revamp anyway - if certain healing changes go in, there'll need to be a large overhaul of taunting aswell.</DIV><BR><BR> <HR> <BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Hmm there's no way it could just be adding hate? I've used it by accident plenty of times in XP groups when offtanking and not pulled agro although I've never tried on a raid like you have. If it just works like an EQ1 taunt� than�I would think it would be fairly inneffective as a taunt prior to loosing agro. If your on top of the hate list bumping you up +400 odd positions doesnt actually change where you sit. Yet in an exp group I have no problem just using PV for agro without anything else (don't think the low dmg/str buff/berserk would be able to do this). </P><BR> <P>That really sounds wierd though being able to jack it from a whole raid. <BR><BR>That just seems like a pretty big "oops" to actually code threat position instead of just + hate. I've always just assumed it added pure hate and the description was in fact incorrect<BR></P><p>Message Edited by Rhaaman on <span class=date_text>06-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:49 PM</span>

[Styk]

Read RS and PoV carefully, it says Threat Postions in the description not just T hreat.... also from my testing it only works if the attacks dont get resisted.... <div></div>

[Oracle_Centuri]

<DIV>Promise of Violence works VERY well.   It is actually a MUCH better version of Rescue.  Rescue is I believe a fighter skill is it not?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as how it works, it is very short term, and must be maintained after used.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For instance if the hate list looks like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Priority</DIV> <DIV>1. Healer </DIV> <DIV>2. Mage</DIV> <DIV>3. Guardian</DIV> <DIV>4. Zerker</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And you use promise of violence:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You would expect that it will now look like this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Zerker</DIV> <DIV>2. Healer</DIV> <DIV>3. Mage</DIV> <DIV>4. Guardian</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However from alot of testing I can tell you that if you lose aggro, it will probably go to the guardian.  Thus my theory is this is what is actually happening:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you use promise of violence it promotes you to the top of the list and wipes the mobs aggro table.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then when the guardian generates more hate then you, he regains aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I obviously cannot prove this, but on raid after raid I have seen this to be true.</DIV>

[Bloomber]

<DIV><FONT size=2></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT></DIV> <P><SPAN><FONT size=2>I always group with a certain charm-obsessed Coercer to maximize our damage potential.  After 5-10 encounters are completed and the group needs to exit combat mode to regain power it's finally time to kill the pet who's been charmed and re-charmed about ten times over during the session.  Running some rudimentary tests to see the effectiveness of the berserker's taunting combat abilities, I've come to this initial conclusion against mobs with extraordinarily more hate for another group member than myself.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><FONT size=2><SPAN>Regular taunts, group buffs and damage combat arts are a time consuming way to slowly build agro from the ground up.  Alternating between Balok's Stifling Cry (40 Training single taunt + stifle) and Balok's Furious Chant</SPAN><SPAN> (30 Training group taunt) alone has take up to 15 iterations to turn the mobs on me.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=2>I've had mixed results with Rescue.  Commonly the group's Inquisitor will be number two on the mobs hate list from healing the Coercer during the encounters.  If I have more initial agro than the Inquisitor then I'll turn the mob to me, if not, then I still have a long haul to achieve a greater level of hate than the Coercer.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=2>Promise of Violence has been a bit tricky for me to learn how to apply it to best suit my play style but once learned it has proven to be an invaluable tool.  Using Promise of Violence alone will usually not turn the mobs attention to me right away.  I'm speculating that my hate is immediately increased to that of the Coercer but there is a factor to overcome after that strike lands to finally get the mobs attention.  This factor could be from the Coercer’s power regeneration buffs pulsing or some hate level "X" that needs to be exceeded to turn a mob away from its current target or some other factor I'm not accounting for.  Whatever the reason, I've needed to pair Promise of Violence followed with single target taunt to consistently turn the mob to me.  Assuming neither Promise of Violence nor the taunt miss/resisted I have a near 100% success rate.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT size=2>I keep Raging Strike right next to Promise of Violence on the secondary hot bar incase the first misses, number two is right behind it.  Recently I've begun to mix in Raging Blows to briefly stun the mob while Promise of Violence and Balok's Stifling Cry work their magic through any packet loss or network latency that may occur.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=2>I'd be interested in hearing any other berserker's experience with these taunts and how you've found your best use for them.</FONT></SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Bloomberry on <span class=date_text>06-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:08 AM</span>

[Rhaam]

<DIV>Knew there was a thread on it already that a dev responded to. Had to search a bit but here it is:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=44974&query.id=0#M44974" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=44974&query.id=0#M44974</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Question:"What is  going on with <FONT color=#ff6633><STRONG>Promise of Violence</STRONG></FONT>?  369 <FONT color=#6699ff>Threat Positions</FONT>?!    What am I missing?   Can anyone explain the purpose of <STRONG>Rescue</STRONG>?  And if I'm totally wrong about all of this, can someone please explain the difference between <FONT color=#66cc66>Threat </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>and </FONT><FONT color=#6699ff>Threat Positions</FONT><FONT color=#ffffff>?"</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dev Response: "The spells that you mentioned that increased your <SPAN><FONT color=#33ccff>Threat Position</FONT> </SPAN><SPAN>by 396 were a bug that was fixed it should now increase your </SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#66ff00>Threat</FONT> </SPAN><SPAN>by that amount instead.  I hope the information helps."</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Rhaaman on <span class=date_text>06-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:35 PM</span>

[IpseDix]

<FONT size=1></FONT> <DIV><FONT size=1>Just my 2 coopper since I'm only lvl 34 :smileytongue:   : I NEVER lose aggro even if I have worlocks or wizards casting as hell in group.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>Usually I cast some group buff while in fight to hold aggro on me: </FONT><FONT size=1>It seems HAVOC (lvl 26 buff) working well + other group buffs.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>Moreover I often use the very low (lvl 15) ability : "Hold The Line" (Immobilizes warrior, each hit dealt by Warrior procs AE taunt). </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=1>There are many and different ways to perma_hold aggro or take it back  if your caster lands a big AoE damage or if your healer casts an Adept III group heal: just have to know ALL of  your abilities :smileyhappy:</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by IpseDixit on <span class=date_text>06-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:17 AM</span>