No need to be upset...

[scl]

<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2"> I posted this on my guilds site for discussion by the fighter classes and thought you may like to hear it too. <p> I've noticed for quite some time now that I find it very easy to keep aggro - once I have it, it's going nowhere. And if I don't have it it's not long before I do. <p> I frequently duo with a Mystic who is the same level as me and wondered if it was because a Mystic's spells don't cause enough aggro. But last night I got a real good indicator to how good Berserkers actually are at tanking... <p> Whist roaming around Varsoons last night with my aforementioned friend, we were approached by 2 Rangers and an Assassin to aid them in the killing of the Creator. For some background, the Mystic and one of the Rangers were the same level as I (30) the other Ranger was 36 and the Assassin was 38. Even though I was the only tank in the group we all agreed to let the Assassin tank as he should be able to miss the majority of the hits. Fair enough I said. <p> And this is where it gets interesting - Arguably Assassins/Rangers are second only to Wizards/Warlocks when it comes to dps. I agree with this statement, especially when they were dual wielding and had poisons equipped. Anyway, the Assassin opened with one of his high damage sneak attacks and the fight began. And then something weird happened... after about 5 - 10 seconds the Creator turned his attention to me... and that was it, I had him until he died. Now it should be stated that I did not use 1 taunt in the battle and once I had aggro, the Mystic had to worked his socks off to keep me alive and we all know how good healers are at attracting aggro! <p> How could this be? I've pulled aggro off high level players in the past; but without taunting? I don't think so. I decided to check my log to see exactly what was going on... I was pretty surprised by the results. It seems I was constantly in Berserk state due to the fact that the Creator was pummeling me into the ground and for those who aren't familiar, berserk increases your attack speed by 37% and your damage by 5% at no additional power cost. Pretty good stuff indeed. But when you take into account the fact that I duel wield (A main tank duel wielding is a discussion for another day!) with weapons that already only have 1.4 delay and my STR was 157 you can imagine my dps was pretty high! <p> If you take the time to do the Maths, you'll see I was hitting every 0.89 seconds with <u>each</u> weapon, doing about 20 - 30 dmg per hit. Add to that the slashing damage DoT I threw in, which hits for 41 every tick for 4 ticks plus the initial damage of 70 - 80 added to the occasional AoE that hits for 250 - 300. <p> Basically, what I'm getting at is this (and it was a long haul to get here I know!) - I can pull hate off aggro generator group members 8 levels above me and keep it there for the duration of the fight <u>without</u> the use of a single taunt. So If I did use my taunts (Two of which are Adept II and auto cast Berserk) and my rescue ability (which increases my place in the hate table by 1 automatically) I cannot see a situation where I could lose aggro. <p> See, fellow Berserkers... there really is no need to worry. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </font>

[Chanliang]

Reason propably is that you we're hitting so fast that even there would be aggro jumpings due big hits/buffs/etc from team members you'd regain aggro back fast cause hitting so often.  Or you just did too much dps :p Anyways you still should throw taunt or 2 once in a while even you'd seem to be holding aggro just in case if something goes wrong. <div></div>

[scl]

<font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2"> Oh yes, I agree with taunting occasionally even when you have aggro, but my point here is that I didn't want it but just couldn't help it! It's not a problem, it was actually a nice feeling knowing that I can do my job effectively - even if it's not wanted! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </font>

[Davish_Darkwolf]

<DIV>The only reason i see is that you either used a Taunt skill or you were doing fast-paced DPS.  Since you didnt Taunt even once, then it only could have been your Dual Wield DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its a snowball.....   he turned his attention to you and the more he hits you, the more you get enraged, the faster you hit and better your DPS (and more hate you generate)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A Zerker, when he gets the attention of the enemy, is hard to pull aggro from.  We are great at holding aggro and being Tanks.  Even with a ranger 38, maybe the Zerker should have been the MT for starts (even with 8 levels difference).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now..... there are indeed sometimes where its hard to keep aggro on us.  Depending on your group and the way people behave.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If im the MT and my group lets me get a solid hate degree  beforing nuking hard,  we are ok....   if im pulling and in the moment i arrive to the group a Warlock  nukes the  mob  for xxxxx  damage.....   then he might spend some hell before i get aggro back from him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Davish_Darkwolf on <span class=date_text>04-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:56 AM</span>

[Gyilok]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> scl wrote:<BR><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>I posted this on my guilds site for discussion by the fighter classes and thought you may like to hear it too. <P>I've noticed for quite some time now that I find it very easy to keep aggro - once I have it, it's going nowhere. And if I don't have it it's not long before I do. <P>I frequently duo with a Mystic who is the same level as me and wondered if it was because a Mystic's spells don't cause enough aggro. But last night I got a real good indicator to how good Berserkers actually are at tanking... <P>Whist roaming around Varsoons last night with my aforementioned friend, we were approached by 2 Rangers and an Assassin to aid them in the killing of the Creator. For some background, the Mystic and one of the Rangers were the same level as I (30) the other Ranger was 36 and the Assassin was 38. Even though I was the only tank in the group we all agreed to let the Assassin tank as he should be able to miss the majority of the hits. Fair enough I said. <P>And this is where it gets interesting - Arguably Assassins/Rangers are second only to Wizards/Warlocks when it comes to dps. I agree with this statement, especially when they were dual wielding and had poisons equipped. Anyway, the Assassin opened with one of his high damage sneak attacks and the fight began. And then something weird happened... after about 5 - 10 seconds the Creator turned his attention to me... and that was it, I had him until he died. Now it should be stated that I did not use 1 taunt in the battle and once I had aggro, the Mystic had to worked his socks off to keep me alive and we all know how good healers are at attracting aggro! <P>How could this be? I've pulled aggro off high level players in the past; but without taunting? I don't think so. I decided to check my log to see exactly what was going on... I was pretty surprised by the results. It seems I was constantly in Berserk state due to the fact that the Creator was pummeling me into the ground and for those who aren't familiar, berserk increases your attack speed by 37% and your damage by 5% at no additional power cost. Pretty good stuff indeed. But when you take into account the fact that I duel wield (A main tank duel wielding is a discussion for another day!) with weapons that already only have 1.4 delay and my STR was 157 you can imagine my dps was pretty high! <P>If you take the time to do the Maths, you'll see I was hitting every 0.89 seconds with <U>each</U> weapon, doing about 20 - 30 dmg per hit. Add to that the slashing damage DoT I threw in, which hits for 41 every tick for 4 ticks plus the initial damage of 70 - 80 added to the occasional AoE that hits for 250 - 300. <P>Basically, what I'm getting at is this (and it was a long haul to get here I know!) - I can pull hate off aggro generator group members 8 levels above me and keep it there for the duration of the fight <U>without</U> the use of a single taunt. So If I did use my taunts (Two of which are Adept II and auto cast Berserk) and my rescue ability (which increases my place in the hate table by 1 automatically) I cannot see a situation where I could lose aggro. <P>See, fellow Berserkers... there really is no need to worry. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>well looks like you dont know much about other classes, especially scouts, since if you had some insight you would not say "aggro generator" to a tanking assassin</P> <P>scout damage is crap when tanking a mob because the real damage arts are either stealth or positional and none of them can be used when tanking, while you can spam all your skills everywhere<BR></P>

[Styk]

I bet 2 big nukes from one of my guild wizzies will yank agro right from you <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> j/k but yeah taunt is always a plus.... also nukage at your lvl isnt as high yet as in the 45+ range <div></div>

[scl]

<P> <blockquote><hr> <b>Some genius said:</b> <p> well looks like you dont know much about other classes, especially scouts, since if you had some insight you would not say "aggro generator" to a tanking assassin <p> scout damage is crap when tanking a mob because the real damage arts are either stealth or positional and none of them can be used when tanking, while you can spam all your skills everywhere <p> <hr></blockquote> <p> Hey, thanks for that. Really creative. I suppose you were the one who 1 starred me too? I am actually very well informed my condescending friend. And might I suggest that you gain some insight? <p> I clearly stated that the Assassin opened with his high damage stealth attack and also clearly stated that within 5 - 10 seconds I was tanking. Now, what makes you think that he did not use his high damage attacks when I had aggro? <p> And whats more, an Assassin/Ranger has a very healthy dps without their special abilities. They dual wield to start with and I also stated that they had poisons attached, therefore adding to their dps. Not to mention that he was 8 levels higher! <p> Here is a tip for you, my little genius. Find all the facts before you start. I suggest you at least find out if I have a certain T5 Ranger before you suggest that <i>I</i> am un-informed.... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[CherobylJ]

<P>For the record: I one starred you (lay off the other fella and yell at me).  Thought while your post was well written it gave a misinterpretation of a Bers power relative to other classes.  I usually 1 star these types of threads on principle.  Hey at least I had the stones to tell you...its not personal I just disagreed with your outcome and logic.  If it makes you feel better one star this back.</P> <P> </P>

[scl]

Ok, thank you for letting me know. All you had to do was voice your opinions though. 1 staring really gets us no where. If you had bones with my post I would much rather you voice your opinions so I can see where I may have gone wrong, rather than just dismissing my opinion. <p> For the record I personally believe Berserkers are far and away the best tanks, but thats just my belief.

[ArivenGemini]

A couple points... first the shaman and cleric lines are borked..  The shaman wards and cleric reactive heals generate hate for the person they are on when they are used, and NOT for the person who cast them (except possibly during the initial cast)... so the longer your mystic has wards on you, the more your personal hate is going to be.. same with a templar or inquisitors reactive heals...  Druids are the only group working right (which is why we have fun sometimes with droods in group). The devs know about the agro issue and are looking into that... but since you were getting pummeled your wards from the shaman were probably going off a lot more than they were on the assassin, generating more hate. Put that with your extra hate from your group and personal buffs and the berserk buffs and there is going to be a problem for a non taunting class (assassin) to be able to pull off you... Of the three classes of tank I love the hate of Berserker... it makes it a LOT easier in managing a mob... and only when I have to deal with untrained group members do I have to worry about losing agro...(i.e. they buff or nuke as I am pulling).. I am always leary about taking on groups of mobs when playing my monk or cursader, simply due to being used to the extra hate of berserker...

[CherobylJ]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> scl wrote:<BR>Ok, thank you for letting me know. All you had to do was voice your opinions though. 1 staring really gets us no where. If you had bones with my post I would much rather you voice your opinions so I can see where I may have gone wrong, rather than just dismissing my opinion. <P>For the record I personally believe Berserkers are far and away the best tanks, but thats just my belief.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ya you are 100 pct right...however i hadnt really finished my first cup of coffee yet so hadnt started writing yet.  Next time I'll write before I star!</P> <P>BTW it wasnt personal I think I'm just used to dealing with academics where grading each other harshly is part of the process. I do think Bers is a great class, my concern (as I've raised to Pad before) is that some folks still tend to represent us as being "over powerful".  </P> <P>While I dont doubt your story, day in and day out, there is no way I'm going to generate enough agro from DPS alone to pull it off scouts.  I think our dps is well balanced and in certain situations can be really quite good.  I just dont believe it as good as you state (for if it is then we truly would be deserving of a nerf).  Perhaps I am just kidding myself but after 6-7 major nerfs and having gotten used to playing this class I'd hate to see yet another nerf.</P>

[Padi]

<P>I've ran acrossed a lot of berserkers on raids pulling agro off me.  Most of them being up to 5-10 levels lower than me.  They all swore they weren't using taunts, so I run a parser to see what really happened.  I run parsers so I can learn what's going on and why things are happening as well as to compare DPS.  Every single time this conversation comes up the lower level berserker was using a taunt they didn't realize was a taunt.  The one most often responsable is the line with a fist icon (promise of violence is the most recent one of mine).</P> <P>It's also true that an assassin does not have any taunts and can't do any of their high damage moves from the front of a mob.</P> <P>I'm unsure how an assassin 8 levels higher than you who could only auto attack would compare to you while auto attacking.</P>

[Gyilok]

<DIV> <HR> scl wrote:<BR></DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> <B>Some genius said:</B> <P>well looks like you dont know much about other classes, especially scouts, since if you had some insight you would not say "aggro generator" to a tanking assassin <P>scout damage is crap when tanking a mob because the real damage arts are either stealth or positional and none of them can be used when tanking, while you can spam all your skills everywhere <P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hey, thanks for that. Really creative. I suppose you were the one who 1 starred me too? I am actually very well informed my condescending friend. And might I suggest that you gain some insight? <P>I clearly stated that the Assassin opened with his high damage stealth attack and also clearly stated that within 5 - 10 seconds I was tanking. Now, what makes you think that he did not use his high damage attacks when I had aggro? <P>And whats more, an Assassin/Ranger has a very healthy dps without their special abilities. They dual wield to start with and I also stated that they had poisons attached, therefore adding to their dps. Not to mention that he was 8 levels higher! <P>Here is a tip for you, my little genius. Find all the facts before you start. I suggest you at least find out if I have a certain T5 Ranger before you suggest that <I>I</I> am un-informed.... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>haha had a good laugh thx</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>referring to facts: you mention none, just some what you think are facts<BR><BR></DIV></DIV>

[Tagright]

This one time, at band camp, I pulled agro off two higher level rogues. <div></div>

[Adewale]

<div></div>When you're getting your [Removed for Content] handed to you and you're constantly berzerking, of course you won't lose aggro. It's not totally the DPS though -- it's largely the aggro from the berserk buff and since you're getting hit all the time, it will proc a lot. This is pretty elementary. Why make a long post about it? You can't get away without taunting at the upper levels. At your level, sure, but not 40+. <div></div><p>Message Edited by AdewaleTD on <span class=date_text>04-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:40 AM</span>

[Nemi]

OMGWTFBBQ!!1 N3rf teh b3r$3rk3r$!!!!!!

[HKU]

<DIV>I would say it is your buffs which draw the aggro. Very often, when I was a group of which the members don't have many buffs, I will draw the aggro even when I didn't START to attack. The hate generated by the buffs cannot be underestimated.</DIV>

[Daran]

Two words.....Rock On! and honestly, if you were a monster the psychopath with the plate armor and the two axes, foaming at the mouth and screaming in a mixture of rage and glee as he chops away at you is gonna get your attention alot faster than anything else right? <span>:smileyhappy:</span> From what I read on the boards the berserking community is having a lot of problems keeping their agro at bay. Seems to me that the only thing that can hold agro off a berserker is another berserker. So I say go with it, rock on, be the front man with no fear, and the next time someone asks you to back off on agro cause they cant keep it point at your chest and say "Berserker.....we don't back off till it stops bleeding" ....just make sure ya got the armor to back up the bravado <span>:smileywink:</span> <div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<P>:smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>ROFL too funny DaranHB, good stuff man, rock on brother.</P> <P>Small question, can i spray the crowd with foam while i say that last caption?</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>04-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:06 AM</span>

[Daran]

yes you can, and you can also point to your weapon of choice and say " But this one goes to 11" <div></div>