Really Don't Like This

[JBo]

<DIV>So, first, everybody called us OVERPOWERED, nerf zerkers!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then devs saw this and listened to them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, everybody called us GIMPED zerkers!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Really can't remember how many times I saw this, in the game, on the boards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't want and tired of whining, but please remember, we are now some kind of gimped, because:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Our combat arts are broken. Fix Contolled Rage please, devs!</DIV> <DIV>    I just need this one single art to be fixed first. It doesn't add defense at all if you have Reckless or Soldier's Stance on.</DIV> <DIV>   After this fixed, please also take time and fix other arts please!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Take it easy on our zerkers please!</DIV> <DIV>   If you need to nerf us, take a smaller step please!</DIV> <DIV>   Like the 1 hour refresh time nerf of Rampage, why can't you just do a 10 minutes nerf?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am planning on leveling to 50 and put my zerker on shelf forever, if these issues can't be solved.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just because I have heard of this GIMPED BS too much and don't want to hear it anymore!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just FYI, although I am called gimped, I am 100% time grouped, and always have 2+ players waiting to join my group. This has nothing to do with zerker capability, it's just because of that I have a good reputation of having great leadership and always form good groups.</DIV><p>Message Edited by JBoot on <span class=date_text>03-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:06 AM</span>

[Cozumel]

I'm level 45...and I don't feel gimped.. I do GREAT DPS, can hold agro like no other, and can tank perfectly fine. <div></div>

[JBo]

<P>Of course we are great.</P> <P>It's just that we are not up to what this class is designed for.</P> <P>1) Broken  arts.</P> <P>    I can't always tank as better as I normally can.</P> <P>    I AM gimped when my combat arts are grayed out and I can't use them, although the refresh time has already pasted.</P> <P>   I AM gimped when my combat arts don't do what it says it can do.</P> <P>   This has caused serious issues, as we can get HUGE damage spikes when our combat arts are not up. You just simply can't ignore it.</P> <P> </P> <P>2) High leve raids.</P> <P>   Face it, we just need Controlled Rage to be fixed before we can reliably tank high level raids.</P> <P>   Before that, you will see GIMPED words all over the boards.</P> <P>   Usually I don't become angry, but I saw these guardians call us like this too much.</P> <P> </P>

[Cozumel]

Umm.. What!? We aren't the MAIN tanks in EQ2... Guardians are, let them do their job. You do yours. At equal levels, you will do more DPS than a guardian, but mitigate less damage and make an awesome backup tank incase of death or adds.  Use the skills you have, including  keeping infuration on the MT (adds a LOT  of avoidance to him and makes you bezerk). As far as greyed out skills.. HUH? What are you talking about, other than the recast time, I don't seem to have this problem.  The only thing that is a LITTLE annoying is greater fury's recast time, but honestly I don't even use  it anymore. As far as upping defense, use WeaponShield for now instead of controlled rage (besides, if I recall controlled rage slows your attack speed by 20%, not worth using imho). I actually think were quite balanced at this point and have no major complaints. <div></div>

[JBo]

<P>You are misreading some of my points here.</P> <P>1. Who said that we can't be main tanks?</P> <P>Nobody said that. You just perceived that from your own experience and take it as a fact, right?</P> <P>If Berserkers can not main tank, then the designers just failed their goals.</P> <P>Remember, we are both warriors, and we have same main tank capability.</P> <P>2. Controlled Rage.</P> <P>Weapon Shield is not same as Controlled Rage, and it will never be same. </P> <P>Weapon Shield is designed to add your parry skills, and you will actually parry 0% against raid mobs.</P> <P>Controlled Rage is designed to enhance your defense skills, and whatever the designer is going to change (mitigation or avoidance), this is what you need for main tanking and raids.</P> <P>Guardians are just lucky that they have more defensive skills working, and we have them broken.</P> <P>That's what GIMPED means. It's the gimped design, not our fault.</P> <P>Take a look at this:</P> <P>Guardian:</P> <P>Call of Protection : +15 defense (adept 3 at level 50) </P> <P>Return to Battle / Braksan's : +8 defense (adept 1 at level 50)) <BR></P> <P>Total of +23 defense.</P> <P> </P> <DIV>Berserker:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Reckless Stance: +11 defense (adept 3 at level 50) </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Controlled Rage: doesn't work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Total of +11 defense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, tell me, how can you feel you are not GIMPED? I don't blame you, it's not your fault or our fault.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>By the way, you need to decrease your attack rate when tanking raid mobs. There is nothing wrong with that.</DIV><p>Message Edited by JBoot on <span class=date_text>03-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:44 AM</span>

[PerinSto]

<BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>First, I have never had someone in game refer to me or Berserkers as "gimped".</P> <P>Second, I have never felt that I could not be MT.</P> <P>Third, Guardians have more defensive skill than us.  By design.  Should I go onto the Guardian board and say that they are "gimped" because their offensive skills aren't as powerful as ours?  </P> <P>Your whole point, if there is one, is that Controlled Rage is bugged.  You have a very poor way of getting that message across though.<BR></P>

[JBo]

<P>Controlled Rage is just one of the many broken arts. I mentioned it a lot just because it's the very few defensive arts we have and it's broken.</P> <P>You don't hear people call you gimped, it's just that they are too polite to say this to youl. It doesn't mean that they don't THINK so.</P> <DIV>Currently, with our all offensive and defensive buffs on, we have about 1 whole level of offense skills over guardians. But because our defensive skills are broken, guardians have almost 3 whole levles of defensive skills over us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not calling a nerf on guardians, as opposed to nerf cries of us from guardians all over their board before.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just need the current issues with our class to be resolved, as soon as possible. The current most important one IMO is Controlled Rage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Remeber, even brawlers have buffs to give them +11 defense, and guardians have +23 defense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With Controlled Rage fixed, we will have something between +11 ~ +23, ideally be +20.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But unfortunately, we have only +11 max defense now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is not a balance issue, it's a bug fix issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All other broken arts can be seen all over the board, and I don't want to repeat them again.</DIV>

[PerinSto]

<P>So we are horribly "gimped" and broken because our level 40 defensive skill upgrade isn't working?  How terrible for us...  Why is it that we are the only class that has broken skills?  Or wait, we're not...</P>

[JBo]

<P>The point is that this one single upgrade spell really impeded us a lot, not just a little.</P> <P>If the other non upgraded version of spells do the same thing but are less effective, it's still acceptable.</P> <P>Unfortunately, you don't have other spells available in this line.</P> <P>And if you don't have it working, you are more prone to huge damage spikes, and you are dead in difficult fights.</P> <P>Other classes do have broken spells, but they are not hit as hard as we berserkers.</P> <P>Especially consider our other spells have been nerfed, and we didn't get anything fixed in return.</P> <DIV>You will notice this when you get higher level.</DIV>

[PerinSto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR> <P>The point is that this one single upgrade spell really impeded us a lot, not just a little.</P> <P><STRONG>If the other non upgraded version of spells do the same thing but are less effective, it's still acceptable.  Unfortunately, you don't have other spells available in this line.</STRONG></P> <P>And if you don't have it working, you are more prone to huge damage spikes, and you are dead in difficult fights.</P> <P><STRONG>Other classes do have broken spells, but they are not hit as hard as we berserkers.</STRONG></P> <P>Especially consider our other spells have been nerfed, and we didn't get anything fixed in return.</P> <DIV>You will notice this when you get higher level.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Isn't Controlled Rage an upgrade to Stiffled Rage?  Are you saying that that is broken too?</P> <P>Every class specific board has lists of their broken skills.  And from glancing over the outrage at some of these I find it hard to believe that we have it worse off than everyone else.<BR></P>

[Cozumel]

Nah Stifled rage is an attack the mob, controlled rage is a self-buf on the same timer as weapon-shield... <div></div>

[JBo]

<DIV>Yes, Controlled Rage is updated version of Stifled Rage, but they have very different effects.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>26 - Stifled Rage : Increases AC but reduces attack </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>40.8 - Controlled Rage : Increases defense but reduces offense </FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Controlled Rage is the only defensive skill we get which is a different spell line of Reckless Stance spells.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Since Controlled Rage is a 3 minutes only short duration buff, it's supposed to be working with Reckless Stance, which is a 12 hours long durationg buff. It doesn't make sense at all that a 3 minutes buff shouldn't stack with a 12 hours buff.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>However, the current fact is that they just simply don't stack. As a result, you will only get maximum of +11 defense skills as you approaching level 50.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>The opposite side is that, Guardians get <FONT face="Courier New">Call of Protection at level 38.6, </FONT>and it works correctly, which provide them <FONT face="Courier New">+15 defense (adept 3 at level 50). </FONT><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>So you can see clearly that, because one of our major skills doesn't work correctly, we are left behind by about 3 whole levels of defense ability.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>So you can see that, our main tank abilities is on par with Guardians before level 40, but not anymore after level 40.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>People just generally don't understand this, and devs don't pay attention at all.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>This is a very serious issue. If your other combat arts don't work, you just lose DPS. But if you lost your defense capabilities, you can simply die.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Keep it in mind, we are not DPS class, we are tank class. Since we lost a big part of our defensive abilities, we are not main tank any more after level 40. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>This issue is very important, and really needs to be resolved as soon as possible.</FONT></DIV>

[PerinSto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR> <DIV>Yes, Controlled Rage is updated version of Stifled Rage, but they have very different effects.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>26 - Stifled Rage : Increases AC but reduces attack </FONT><BR><FONT size=2>40.8 - Controlled Rage : Increases defense but reduces offense </FONT><BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>AC = defense.  Attack = offense.  How are these different?????  :smileysurprised:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm sorry if I'm not high enough of a level yet to see how this is such a "gimping" issue.  I'd love to see you argue on the other class boards how bad we have it because of this bug.  I can just imagine the support we'd get then...</DIV>

[JBo]

<DIV>AC != Defense, although both of them are parts of your defensive abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AC will increase your mitigation against phisical attacks, which means you will get hit less harder.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>According to current design, defense will increase your avoidance, not just your mitigation (may or may not change according to dev's posts).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you have less defense skills, you will get hit much often and harder.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is especially important against high level mobs, as they tend to hit much more often and harder.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since Controlled Rage doesn't work well with Reckless Stance, we lose about 10-15 defense skills compared to Guardians after level 40. It would only be reasonable if this is only about 5 difference, because that's the edge we currently have at offensive side.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by JBoot on <SPAN class=date_text>03-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:05 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by JBoot on <span class=date_text>03-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:05 PM</span>

[Happyfunba]

<DIV>I definitely thing the OP is over-stated the dire state we're in as Berserkers. I think it's paranoia talking that's saying to you that we're gimped and that everybody thinks that. I'm sure some people think that. I additionally believe that most people do NOT think that, particularly since my experience with others is that they claim I do my job well. By your assessment, I'm apparently being lied to or they're just being too polite to tell me the truth. But that would be incredably odd given that I'm not making any solicitation towards them in regards to how I'm doing. These are comments which are being offered by them of their own free-will. There's no reason to believe they're not telling me what they really think under such circumstances. So you can see how your version of things comes across as a bit paranoid. If you're hearing other people constantly call you gimped, perhaps it's not so much that everyone else is being polite to us, maybe those people are simply being mean towards you. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, to be fair, I think I can hopefully explain the difference between pure AC and Defense, which is one of the major points you bring up.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raw AC (now mitigation and avoidance) is simply how well a mob can damage you assuming you're at equal level. The higher your percentages, naturally the less often a mob can hit you and for less damage. This is what something that offers increased parry, piercing, crushing, etc, skill will effect. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Making a change to your Defense in eccense raises your current level. So then, let's say I'm attacking a level 40 mob and I'm level 40. The mob will hit me at the rates established thru my mitigation and avoidance. If I am given a buff that raises my Defense by 2 however, the mob now attacks me as though I am literally 2 levels higher. The adjustment translates roughly into what a mob could do to me if they were instead level 38, not 40. I think we can all agree that our mitigation and avoidance increases as we gain levels over the respective mob. Eventually, we even reach a point where a mob that's too many levels below us simply cannot hit us at all or for very little damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what Jboot is saying is that our level 40 ability which offers an increase to Defense does not stack with other buffs that he believes it should stack with. I'm not completely certain that I agree with that or not, but assuming the intent is that it SHOULD stack with these buffs, attempting to use something that increases mitigation/avoidance would not actually be the same. If given the choice, I personally would always choose to increase my Defense as opposed to my mitigation/avoidance numbers (unless I could change either of those percentages radically). And particularly in the case of raid mobs who go beyond the current level cap, raising your Defense number is really the best way to physically change the way that mob will hit you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it's broken then yes, it does need to be fixed. It will indeed make us better tanks, particularly if other tank classes who have a similar buff find that their's actually works. But I don't think this makes us incredably gimped and I definitely don't think it's worth quiting my Berserker over. </DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Stifled Rage and Controlled are both the exact same buff, they slow the attack speed of the caster down by 20% and increase Defense, its a trade off, and they both share the exact same timer, cause controlled rage is the upgrade to Stiled Rage :</P> <P><STRONG><U>Stifled Rage Apprentice IV</U></STRONG> :</P> <UL> <LI>Decrease Attack Speed of caster by 20%</LI> <LI>Increase Defense of caster by 9</LI></UL> <P><STRONG><U>Controlled Rage Apprentice I</U></STRONG> :</P> <UL> <LI>Decrease Attack Speed of caster by 20%</LI> <LI>Increase Defense of caster by 7</LI></UL> <P> </P> <DIV>Exactally the same, no difference besides Controlled rage if i upgraded it, would offer more Defense, same timers, the thing is there broken and not stacking with Soilders Stance or Unflinching WIll, seeing we trade off 20% attack speed for extra Defense, then they should stack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:54 AM</span>

[JBo]

I found out that the gimped comments mostly came out from players of evil sides, as they tend to be less polite and speak more frankly I believe. However, this can also be viewed that friends or players of good sides are too polite to say the truth. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by JBoot on <span class=date_text>03-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:08 PM</span>

[PerinSto]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR> I found out that the gimped comments mostly came out from players of evil sides, as they tend to be less polite and speak more frankly I believe. However, this can also be viewed that friends or players of good sides are too polite to say the truth. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm sure everyone in Freeport is running around yelling [Removed for Content]! at every Berserker that runs by... :smileytongue:</P> <P>But anyway, I was going to post what it said about my App2 Stifled Rage but Aonein beat me to it.  It increases your DEFENSE.  So why can't you use that?  Controlled Rage is an upgrade to Stifled Rage.  Go by an Adept 3 or Master version of Stifled Rage if you are that concerned about your defense.  What's the huge issue here?<BR></P>

[JBo]

The issue is none of these two spells (Stifled Rage or Controlled Rage) works now. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So both of them need to be fixed as soon as possible.</DIV>

[Davish_Darkwolf]

<DIV>We have our share of broken skills, but i dont feel gimped at all.</DIV>

[Padi]

<P>There is no one being polite about zerkers.  People being polite try to draw attention away from you being [Removed for Content], not praising about how superior they are.  Zerkers freaking rock in all situations.  While a guardian takes a little less damage and will likely be the MT of a raid, zerkers are good tanks for normal exp groups, and decent on raids, but do DPS as well as anyone.</P> <P>When I join a raid, I usually have the highest DPS.  That alone is plenty of reason to play a zerker.</P> <P>I get a lot of people telling me that I've been the best tank they've grouped with.  That's not what you'd get if you were truely gimped.  Not only that, but I'm a gnome without the +5 defensive racial trait.</P>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>AC = defense.  Attack = offense.  How are these different?????  <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif" width=16 border=0><BR>__________________________________________________ _________________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>im not going to comment on the gimped thing because you guys ARE NOT gimped in the least. you are one of the MORE balanced classes out there for the purpose that which you are designed. [Removed for Content] crap off because it [Removed for Content] you off and kick its butt in return.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but in reference to the question,,,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Defense is and will always be better than offense in a tank. whether its a defensive ability, skill, or even a self heal.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>why you may ask?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>defensive skills cannot be impeded outside of a fizzle on a heal (aka paladins). combat arts dont have that issue of             **not working**</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now on the other hand, offensive skills to a tank class can be highly impeded in several ways, there are 5 different ways for a offensive attack or move to fail, block, parry, miss, riposte, and resist (shadowknights).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so if anything - that would be a much larger issue than whos gimped or not, dont find issues to argue amongst yourselves about, find a way to maximize your role while tanking (if damage is supposed to be the offset for your lack of +defensive buffs). ask for them to make it so that its a noticeable difference.</DIV>

[Bok]

<DIV>i wonder then .. i never even used ANY of them lame i get higher def because i will lower my rage and offense ... im a bloody dwarf berserker.. why would i even think of keeping up my guard?? the only thing i have used, is to shield an ally of hits, i like blood on me, not on them, my blood MINE</DIV> <DIV>and second.. i have used hold the line when it seemed the enemies where trying to push us back, pah, i dont like that !! so, hold the line does a nice trick there..</DIV> <DIV>but, i never had anyone call me gimped before.. and, its been a game in our guild to see who would outdmg me ..sofar a brigandir is coming the closest in average.. sometimes the wizzies make a good try, but on average i still lead with a decent amount .. </DIV> <DIV>so .. why you beeing bothered about any defensive skills? were pure offensive melee man, if ya dont wanna get hurt, play a guardian, or a rat that sneaks .. dont be meddling with no bloodrage</DIV>

[DaemonSlay]

<P>I can hold aggro better than a stampeding Drakotia</P> <P>I do nice DpS, and good damage...</P> <P>I can play main tank</P> <P> </P> <P>like every class, theres soemthign wrong with our class... (like bugs) but we are not so terribly gimped that we are impossible to play..</P> <P> </P> <P>yes we need some fixing</P> <P>But i love this class, and enjoy playing as Berserker - i dont feel unberably gimped...</P>

[Zerofault]

<P>Cozumel you are a disgrace to the Berserker.. not MT? what?  I personally am the MT for a high end guild.  I am sick and tired , especially when i hear a fellow berserker, think that guardians are the end all MT for raids... thats plain ignorant thinking.  Other then that our buffs are SOOO freaking broke.  Controlled rage gives me 1 defense lol... Vehemence does absolutely NOTHING.  We have to wait 30 seconds to recast our buffs, which if intended is the stupidist thing i have ever heard of.  </P> <P>Well, /petition /bug and /feedback daily EVERYONE to get this fixed...  do it, they really do listen if you do these daily.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lodoz</P> <P>Nektulos</P>

[JBo]

<DIV>Zerofault has a good point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All of us need to report and bug this daily.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This has always been a serious issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are one of the ultimate raid tanks, however, our broken spells have seriously limited our abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If Controlled Rage can be fixed, then our main tank ability can be improved.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, all other broken spells need to be fixed also.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by JBoot on <SPAN class=date_text>03-25-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:00 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by JBoot on <span class=date_text>03-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:01 PM</span>